Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-03-09

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Time Nick Message
14:25 bluescreen joined #parrotsketch
18:46 darbelo joined #parrotsketch
18:50 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
18:57 whiteknight WHAT I DID
18:57 whiteknight * Worked on fix_icc_failures branch with dukeleto and bubaflub. With branch merge (later today) Parrot will build and pass all tests when compiled with ICC (and throw a lot fewer build warnings to boot).
18:57 whiteknight * Worked on pcc_hackathon_6Mar10 branch. Modest contributions, mostly watched allison and later chromatic work on it
18:57 whiteknight * Killed dead code files src/events.c, src/tsq.c with help from cotto.
18:57 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO
18:57 whiteknight * Merge the fix_icc_failures branch
18:57 whiteknight * More hacking/fixing on the pcc_hackathon_6Mar10 branch, hope to get that ready soonish
18:57 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON
18:57 whiteknight * Lack of time
19:03 japhb joined #parrotsketch
19:05 cotto_work #did:
19:05 cotto_work * helped get opsc to generate the C code for the function-based runcore
19:05 cotto_work - It works (!!!) and causes no new test failures.
19:05 cotto_work - code generation is slow (2:45 with --optimize)
19:05 cotto_work - other lesser warts exist
19:05 cotto_work #will do:
19:05 cotto_work * clean up build process
19:05 cotto_work * profiling and optimizing
19:05 cotto_work * other runcores
19:05 cotto_work #blockers:
19:05 cotto_work * time and brains
19:05 cotto_work #closed TTs:
19:05 cotto_work #eor
19:05 cotto_work will probably be late for #ps but will backscroll
19:05 cotto_work also, bacek++ for doing the majority of the opsc work
19:06 NotFound joined #parrotsketch
19:13 davidfetter joined #parrotsketch
19:14 darbelo DONE:
19:14 darbelo - Got the TGE PIR compiler building again.
19:14 darbelo - More rm_cflags testing on Sun CC.
19:14 darbelo - Tended after dbm-dynpmcs, kept it in sync with trunk, etc.
19:14 darbelo - Attended a week-long symposium on embedded systems.
19:14 darbelo TODO:
19:14 darbelo - Go back to working on cross-compilation.
19:14 darbelo - More PIR compiler necromancy.
19:14 darbelo - GSoC prep. RTEMS research.
19:14 darbelo EOR
19:19 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
19:19 NotFound What I did:
19:19 NotFound - parrot
19:19 NotFound * Applied the patch that avoids generation of duplicated string constants.
19:19 NotFound * Documented the plan for auto/manual_attrs, TT #1506
19:19 NotFound * Minor fixes.
19:19 NotFound What I will do:
19:19 NotFound No plan
19:19 NotFound EOR
19:28 bubaflub joined #parrotsketch
19:33 eternaleye joined #parrotsketch
19:47 Coke joined #parrotsketch
19:53 Coke Done in parrot:
19:53 Coke - merged back rm_cflags - now each invocation of the compiler doesn't
19:53 Coke invoke perl too. Involved some last minute windows bugfixen, which
19:53 Coke particle & ttbot helped with.
19:53 Coke - started to eliminate the dynoplibs recursive make target. nearly done.
19:54 Coke (that will leave two.)
19:54 Coke - closed some tickets.
19:54 Coke Done in rakudo:
19:54 Coke - went through some tickets and through action or inaction, caused them
19:54 Coke to be closed. (mainly involved finding a platform on which I could
19:54 Coke actually BUILD rakudo; fails on 2 out of 3.)
19:54 Coke EOR
20:03 dukeleto joined #parrotsketch
20:10 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:19 lichtkind joined #parrotsketch
20:22 chromatic I worked on a couple of branches and made some progress on the PCC refactors.
20:23 chromatic I think I have TT #389 cracked, but it'll take some time tomorrow or Thursday to verify that.
20:23 chromatic I'm still blocking on time.
20:23 allison Last week:
20:23 allison - Started and nearly completed the PCC refactor branch for 'get_results'.
20:23 allison - Thanks to all who participated in the hackathon for that.
20:23 allison - Caught up on mailing list discussions.
20:23 allison Next week:
20:23 allison - Fix remaining failures in PCC branch, prepare for merge after 2.2.
20:23 allison EOR
20:25 Util # Done:
20:25 Util * Mu.
20:25 Util # Plan to do:
20:25 Util * See if TT#1489 is what is causing Rakudo build failures on Win32.
20:25 Util * Try Intel VTune on EC2 on Parrot.
20:25 Util # Blockers:
20:25 Util * $WORK, but an end is in sight.
20:25 Util .end
20:29 japhb WIP:
20:29 japhb * Discuss HLL interop changes with Tene
20:29 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
20:29 japhb * Adding nqp_setup support to plumage
20:30 japhb TODO:
20:30 japhb * More of both WIP items
20:30 japhb EOR
20:30 dukeleto Did:
20:30 dukeleto * Got PL/Parrot (with eggyknap++) to actually run PIR from Postgres
20:30 dukeleto * Still trying to figure out how to pass arguments and return values between Parrot + Postgres
20:30 dukeleto * Setup an openembedded dev environment on mj41++'s server, getting closer to having a BitBake recipe for Parrot
20:30 dukeleto This means that it will be easy for Parrot to get cross-compiled for all embedded devices supported by OpenEmbedded
20:30 dukeleto * Working on application for TPF and PaFo to be part of Google Summer of Code 2010
20:30 dukeleto http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2010/0​3/google-summer-of-code-2010.html
20:30 dukeleto * Created new wiki page for GSOC2010 http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/GSOC2010 (Please give it some love!)
20:30 dukeleto * Created an RFC to start implementing security measures described in PDD18, but no responded to my email to the list:
20:30 dukeleto http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1500
20:30 dukeleto * Created TT for testing that "make corevm" works correctly: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1502
20:30 dukeleto * Created TT for making necessary parrot string functions available to embedders: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1496
20:30 dukeleto Will Do:
20:30 dukeleto * Still planning on writing a blog post summarizing recent developments in the Parrot core + ecosystem
20:30 dukeleto * More of the same
20:30 dukeleto Blocks:
20:30 dukeleto * Real life
20:30 dukeleto .EOR
20:31 chromatic Anyone else to prepaste?
20:32 chromatic Okay, let's begin.
20:32 chromatic Last week review.
20:32 mikehh only just got here - hadn't prepared a report
20:32 chromatic You can report if you like.
20:33 mikehh just a bunch of testing and fixing - branch and trunk
20:34 chromatic PCC Hackathon: how'd that go?
20:37 mikehh some progress - still can't get PGE to build, infinite loop on t/compilers/imcc/syn/regressions.t
20:37 allison the hackathon went well
20:37 allison good team effort
20:37 mikehh PGE should not be part of make corevm
20:38 allison mikehh: yes, that was a recently introduced bug
20:38 allison did we get a ticket in for it?
20:38 * darbelo blames Coke
20:38 * allison checks trac
20:38 mikehh it builds up to there and still can run makecoretest until it loops
20:38 chromatic Any estimates of how much more work it needs?
20:39 bacek joined #parrotsketch
20:39 allison the tasklist is almost complete, so from that perspective it's pretty much done
20:39 allison what's left is debugging
20:39 chromatic As far as I know, there's no progress on TT #389.
20:39 allison it would be really nice if we could run the core tests without hanging on PGE
20:40 chromatic Anything else on last week's goals?
20:40 mikehh well they start running
20:40 bacek Done:
20:41 bacek * opsc reached big milestone - generated core_ops.c have no new failures.
20:41 bacek Todo:
20:41 bacek * More work on opsc
20:41 bacek Sorry, I'm late.
20:41 dukeleto fixing "make corevm" -> http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1502
20:41 allison dukeleto: excellent, thanks!
20:41 allison it was a pretty easy fix the first time, should be no trouble
20:42 mikehh the build system has changed in trunk from rm_cflags merge
20:42 mikehh we want to make sure that it also does the same
20:43 chromatic Let's pick two new goals for next week.
20:44 chromatic Our next release is next Tuesday.
20:45 dukeleto i would like some help on PDD18, maybe make that a goal?
20:45 chromatic Is that the security PDD?
20:45 dukeleto my RFC ticket http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1500 got no responses on the list
20:45 dukeleto chromatic: yes
20:45 mikehh anything specific we need to include for the release - tests ok for me so far
20:45 * dukeleto would LOVE some kind of feedback on my proposed API and how to make it happen
20:46 chromatic I don't know that PDD 18 helps Rakudo * right away though.
20:46 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
20:46 dukeleto chromatic: that is write. I didn't know the goals where Rakudo*-specific
20:46 dukeleto s/write/right/
20:46 japhb I'm making a push to have Plumage actually *itself* installable (I know, what a concept) this week.  dukeleto, do you think you might have some cycles if I need a second pair of eyes/hands?
20:47 dukeleto japhb: yep, i can write some tests and or test on my boxen
20:47 japhb dukeleto, cool, thank you.
20:47 mikehh we need to be as ready as possible for rakudo*
20:47 japhb Anyone else interested is of course invited to ping me for a commit bit
20:48 chromatic Does anyone know of the top bugs for which Rakudo needs Parrot fixes?  Maybe we should have a HLL bug week.
20:48 dukeleto chromatic: this looks important for Rakudo* http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1505
20:48 japhb mikehh, I'm going to see what I can do to get their installer needs met (during the last week, they put out a list of module install/load features they want for Rakudo *)
20:48 darbelo "HLL bug week" sounds good.
20:48 Coke bah, just call it rakudo bug week. :P
20:49 Tene Oh, I'm here.  I was overwhelmed by life the past week, didn't get anything done, but did chat with japhb about hll interop stuff.
20:49 Tene KTHXBAI
20:49 cotto_work hi
20:50 chromatic Anyone else for a Rakudo bug week?
20:50 allison sounds good
20:50 Util +1
20:50 mikehh +1
20:50 Coke WFM
20:50 bacek wfm
20:50 japhb Definitely +1
20:50 Coke q1q
20:51 whiteknight +1
20:51 chromatic Alright.  That means that we should make fixing Rakudo bugs a priority over exploring other things.
20:51 mikehh we also need to get moritz, pmichaud and others involved
20:52 spinclad (jnthn, masak)
20:52 dukeleto +1 to rakudo bug week
20:52 mikehh right
20:52 Coke some of us can hang out in #perl6 on freenode.
20:52 dukeleto Coke: i am always lurking in there
20:52 whiteknight q1q
20:53 mikehh me too
20:53 chromatic Any other thoughts on a weekly priority?
20:53 Coke I'm going to keep hacking at the build.
20:53 allison that one's important enough to be the one priority for the week
20:53 whiteknight agreed
20:54 Coke dq1q.
20:54 spinclad (which, rakudo or build?)
20:54 Coke spinclad: rakudo
20:55 chromatic Let's move to question time.  whiteknight?
20:55 * dukeleto just notified the peeps in #perl6 to send a list of bugs that Rakudo needs fixed to parrot-dev
20:55 whiteknight would like to add a new VTABLE_init_int, which would allow initialization from an integer
20:55 whiteknight Would allow preallocation of things like Fixed*Array, Integer, CallContext, etc
20:56 darbelo +1
20:56 bacek -1
20:56 Coke pros/cons vs. using init_pmc?
20:56 whiteknight Coke: you would have to create a throwaway Integer PMC to do the same thing
20:57 darbelo One less throwaway PMC.
20:57 bacek Why it's better that VTABLE_init/VTABLE_assign_integer_native?
20:57 whiteknight and the integer PMC would have to be created and then call set_integer
20:57 whiteknight bacek: better atomicity for threaded applications
20:57 whiteknight plus, one fewer vtable call on pmcs that support it
20:57 Coke whiteknight: fair enough on the pmc vs. int. +0; =-)
20:57 bacek this PMC isn't shared between thread.
20:57 chromatic Atomicity is a red herring with our current threading model.
20:58 whiteknight "current threading model" being the operative phrase there
20:58 bacek vtable calls are cheap.
20:58 whiteknight like saying the potpurri doesn't smell great next to our current garbage
20:58 darbelo If tewk's futures runloop would benefit from them.
20:58 tewk tewk, pushed this issue.
20:58 darbelo s/If //
20:58 NotFound What will be the way to invoke that vtable from pir?
20:58 allison whiteknight: does this imply VTABLE_init_str and VTABLE_init_num?
20:59 whiteknight allison: the case for symmetry can be made, but in the pilot I am proposing, *_int has more utility
20:59 Coke NotFound: new $P1, ['Array'],  5
20:59 allison I am in favor or ways to avoid creating intermediate throw-away PMCs
20:59 chromatic That's a new op too.
20:59 whiteknight new op, yes
21:00 whiteknight $P0 = new ['FixedIntegerArray'], 10
21:00 Coke prolly just an op variant, though that's a small distinction.
21:00 NotFound For simmetry at pir level, we can do autoboxing to init_pmc for N and S.
21:01 whiteknight NotFound: yes, that's a good stop gap measure while we consider the utlity of init_string and init_number vtables
21:01 allison NotFound: yes, that's sensible, avoid the extra vtable functions unless absolutely necessary
21:01 chromatic Why add ops for the sake of symmetry?
21:02 chromatic -1 to adding ops unless there's a significant benefit to adding them.
21:02 Coke +1 on only added what we need.
21:02 Coke *adding
21:02 whiteknight a small pilot experiment would need one op and one vtable
21:02 darbelo We could just atobox, and only add the vtables if benchmarking shows the boxing hurts.
21:02 whiteknight marked experimental, we could remove it later or expand on it if people like it
21:02 tewk +1
21:03 darbelo That would add no vtables.
21:03 dukeleto this conversation sounds like it is getting a bit too-detailed for #ps, can we take it to #parrot ?
21:03 chromatic One question for #ps is "Is this a good use of our time right now?"
21:04 darbelo Maybe next week would eb better.
21:05 chromatic I mean it may or may not be a worthwhile experiment (and it sounds like the consensus runs generally positive), but is it the most worthwhile feature we could be working on now?
21:05 whiteknight chromatic: I think the time investment would be minor for an experiment
21:06 dukeleto chromatic: worthwhile for Rakudo* or for parrot in general?
21:06 chromatic My bias is what's worthwhile for Rakudo * is worthwhile for Parrot in general.
21:06 chromatic Frankly, if whiteknight works on this instead of TT #1505, I think that hurts both Rakudo * and Parrot.
21:07 allison chromatic: the specific benefit mentioned was in PCC cleanups
21:07 whiteknight I think #1505 will be done tonight
21:07 bacek and vice versa
21:07 whiteknight I know how to prioritize when a release is nigh
21:07 bacek How much work left on PCC cleanups?
21:07 dukeleto chromatic: in some sense, yes. But as a PL/Parrot dev, getting some semblance of a security subsystem would be very important to all embedders, which is possibly a lot more people than Rakudo devs
21:08 allison bacek: in this particular branch, just PGE debugging
21:08 allison bacek: it's a series of small refactors
21:09 bacek allison, ok. I'll try to jump on this branch today/tomorrow to help finish it.
21:09 chromatic I'm not saying "Don't experiment" or "Let's not add new features", but that we agreed on priorities in the November meeting and I'm concerned that we're not going to achieve them.
21:10 allison then it's worth reviewing those priorities
21:10 allison possibly in a quick note at the end of every weekly meeting
21:10 dukeleto i think making "make corevm" work correctly is, like, massively important
21:10 whiteknight dukeleto:: +1
21:11 cotto_work +1
21:11 NotFound +1
21:12 dukeleto can we make that a priority this week, along with fixing rakudo bugs?
21:12 chromatic Sounds like there's agreement on that.
21:13 whiteknight the fix, ideally, will be smal
21:13 whiteknight a test to prevent regressions, however, could be large
21:14 chromatic Coke said he'd look at it today after his day job.
21:15 allison whiteknight: the fix is good enough
21:16 allison the test is, possibly impossible
21:16 dukeleto the fix is key, but the test prevents this from happening again in the future, which is still quite important. But not as big as fixing "make corevm" right now
21:16 dukeleto allison: i can make that test, i just haven't had much time to throw at it
21:16 dukeleto allison: no stopping energy is necessary ;)
21:17 allison dukeleto: the more limited test we talked about? aye
21:17 allison mostly just saying "make the fix first priority, the test is lower, but good to have"
21:17 dukeleto allison: yes, your idea for checking for the non-existence of some files after "make corevm" is a great idea
21:17 dukeleto allison: i am in full agreement
21:17 chromatic Other priorities?
21:18 darbelo World Domination.
21:19 chromatic That's our priority every week.
21:19 particle how do you know corevm hasn't been run after all, or some target which would create files outside corevm?
21:19 dukeleto chromatic: if i could get some feedback on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1500, i could move forward on that. I just don't know if my proposed API is even reasonable at this point
21:20 allison particle: corevm is a subset of the more full build target
21:20 particle make world; #hack; make corevm #test fails
21:20 allison particle: but you can run "clean" and check that a few key files don't reappear when you run 'corevm'
21:20 dukeleto particle: in "make fulltest" a fresh copy of parrot can be created in a subdir, "make corevm" run, and then the non-existence of certain files is checked for
21:21 allison particle: it's not the ultimate test, but will at least give us an indicator
21:21 dukeleto running "make clean" in our test suite sounds like it could wipe out developer work-in-progress, which i don't like
21:22 allison particle: PGE is the big one that kills us, because we get stuck in obtuse errors buried deep in PGE, instead of starting by debugging test failures
21:22 particle i understand the motive
21:23 particle it seems a bit odd to write tests for make targets, especially when the tests try to prove that all non-black things are non-crows
21:23 dukeleto if people have ideas about testing "make corevm" please add them to http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1502
21:23 dukeleto particle: please add your comments to TT1502
21:23 chromatic Let's get back to larger design and scheduling issues.
21:23 chromatic Any other questions?
21:24 dukeleto chromatic: yes. can someone please give feedback on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1500 ?
21:24 * dukeleto is starting to sound like a broken record. I am done, i think.
21:24 allison dukeleto: I'll comment on it
21:24 dukeleto allison: thanks!
21:25 NotFound Question: Some comment about http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1506 ?
21:26 chromatic +1 to TT #1506
21:26 whiteknight NotFound: +1 from me
21:26 cotto_work NotFound,
21:26 cotto_work +1
21:26 allison +1
21:27 NotFound We can discuss deprecation points later.
21:27 chromatic Other questions?
21:28 Coke point of order.
21:28 Coke (not really, but not a question, either)
21:28 chromatic Go ahead.
21:29 Coke the # of people subscribed to the tickets list is VERY small compared to the # on the -dev list; if you're looking for feedback on something, you're probably better off having the discussion on -dev and capturing it for the ticket, rather than (more)
21:29 Coke posting the ticket and waiting for feedback there. (I myself have several tickets languishing in this state.)
21:30 Coke not a priority for this week, just something to think about.
21:30 Coke .
21:30 * dukeleto finds that it is always a good idea to email -dev and ask for input on TT's
21:30 dukeleto Coke++
21:30 chromatic Any other questions?
21:33 whiteknight nope
21:34 chromatic Okay, let's call it a week then.
21:34 PacoLinux left #parrotsketch
21:34 dukeleto ENODISHES
21:34 dukeleto left #parrotsketch
21:35 davidfetter left #parrotsketch
21:35 bubaflub left #parrotsketch
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21:37 Coke left #parrotsketch
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22:44 cotto_work joined #parrotsketch
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