Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-03-30

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17:55 whiteknight WHAT I DID
17:55 whiteknight * Applied patch from tcurtis++
17:55 whiteknight * Received, and responded to, several emails from prospective GSoC students. If half of these submit applications, it could be our best year ever. Lots of interest in Immutable Strings specificaly, we may need to do some collision avoidance.
17:55 whiteknight * Got a list of tickets blocking Austin and Kakapo, sorted in priority order. Closed some, tried to delegate some, commented on others.
17:55 whiteknight * More tinkering on the Matrixy refactor, had a plan but am having doubts about it now.
17:55 whiteknight * Created a new project, parrot-bidwidth-types, to play with some PMCs for fixed-width data types (integer32, float64, etc)
17:55 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO
17:55 whiteknight * More cheerleading for GSoC.
17:55 whiteknight TICKETS I CLOSED
17:55 whiteknight #1533, #1133, #1497, #1473
18:04 Coke partcl-nqp - implement several [string] subcommands. - somehow convinced Austin++ to get a commit bit and do a ton of work. - added [lset]
18:04 Coke - fixed TODO tests. - eliminate some Q:PIR
18:04 Coke parrot -
18:04 Coke - closed several TTs
18:04 Coke rakudo -
18:04 Coke - Talked to jnthn about priorities for Rakudo * - Very interested in getting good line #s on reported errors; jnthn will do some testing, but it would be good for us to make sure that line numbers in errors have
18:04 Coke good coverage.
18:04 Coke planned -
18:04 Coke - keep migrating more work from partcl to partcl-nqp - this is actually
18:04 Coke a good task if people want to play with NQP - take existing PIR and
18:05 Coke transform it.
18:05 Coke - work with darbelo to kill the dynpmc makefile (though this may actually
18:05 Coke make sense to wait until after 2.3, as that will remove many of our
18:05 Coke dynpmcs.
18:05 Coke .
18:09 mikehh What I did since my last report:
18:09 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++, with and without --optimize
18:09 mikehh * fixing codetest failures - particularly assert args
18:09 mikehh * no branch testing this week (too involved with trunk)
18:09 mikehh * couple of fixes to get g++ to build
18:09 mikehh * at the moment all tests up to fulltest pass (r45318) Ubuntu 9.10 amd64/i386 gcc/g++
18:09 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
18:09 mikehh * testing and fixing
18:09 mikehh * investigate codetest problems with nqp (which I did not get around to this week)
18:09 mikehh * documentation
18:09 mikehh .eor
18:10 cotto_work #did:
18:10 cotto_work * "merged" test for the profiling runcore in t/profiling/profiling.t
18:10 cotto_work - wasted about 90 minutes with two failed syncs before manually taking a diff and applying it to trunk
18:10 cotto_work - profiling runcore tests are now run by default with library tests
18:10 cotto_work - I'm not sure if that's the best place for the .t file, feel free to move if needed.
18:10 cotto_work - Rough edges exist, but it works and it's easy to add more tests (including nqp-based tests).
18:10 cotto_work * told khairul I can mentor his gsoc project, http://groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/browse_thread/thread/cbd5ba138c1dbb4f
18:10 cotto_work #will do:
18:10 cotto_work * find profiling bugs, write test cases, fix, repeat
18:10 cotto_work * look for holes or improvements in khairul's proposal
18:10 cotto_work * back to opsc work?
18:10 cotto_work #blockers:
18:10 cotto_work #closed TTs:
18:10 cotto_work #eor
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19:44 bacek Done:
19:44 bacek - Almost nothing.
19:44 bacek - Fix Parrot_str_write_COW to allocate less memory (pointed out by chromatic++)
19:44 bacek - Attempted to fix TT#1172 - reverted.
19:44 bacek - Fix build with GC INF
19:44 bacek Todo:
19:48 bacek - New experimental Generational GC.
19:48 bacek Blockers:
19:48 bacek - RL.
19:48 bacek EOR
19:48 chromatic Fixed a bunch of memory leaks.
19:48 moritz chromatic++ bacek++
19:48 chromatic Made several performance tweaks; Rakudo now starts at least 8% faster and should run at least 2.5% faster.
19:49 chromatic Wrote up plans for better constant STRING handling and VTABLE override checking; takers wanted on both.
19:49 chromatic Will continue to look at Rakudo-specific bugs.
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19:52 NotFound What I did:
19:52 NotFound - parrot
19:52 NotFound * Minor fixes, lloking at some tickets.
19:52 NotFound - winxed
19:52 NotFound * Some improvements in pirado.
19:52 NotFound * Hex integers in stage 0.
19:52 NotFound What I will do:
19:52 NotFound Not much, some holidays.
19:52 NotFound EOR
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20:29 Util Nothing done, or planned for new week. Blocked by $WORK.
20:29 Util .end
20:30 allison Last week:
20:30 allison - Refactored the compact_pool function into a series of smaller static functions.
20:30 allison - Added documentation based on IRC discussions.
20:30 allison Next week:
20:30 allison - Scanning for further GC refactors.
20:30 allison - Focus on Rakudo needs.
20:30 allison EOR
20:31 chromatic Any other reports before we begin?
20:32 chromatic Okay, let's begin.
20:32 chromatic Last week in review: fortunately, bacek and I found and fixed the memory problem which hurt Rakudo.
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20:33 chromatic How are we doing on HLL bugs, specifically MMD and methods in namespaces?
20:33 Util chromatic: Was that a true fix, or the workaround that you spoke of last #ps?
20:34 chromatic The memory problem was a true fix.
20:37 chromatic Other discussion of last week's priorities?  Going once....
20:37 chromatic Let's move on to this week's priorities.
20:37 Util TT #389 status?
20:38 chromatic Still blocked on brainpower, I'm afraid.
20:38 Util thx
20:38 chromatic I hope to have time to work on it this weekend.
20:40 chromatic Our next release is in three weeks, by way of a reminder.
20:41 allison Review the roadmap before or after questions?
20:41 chromatic Let's pick some weekly priorities, then do the roadmap.
20:42 chromatic Suggestions?
20:42 allison TT #389?
20:42 Coke rakudo's buildtime.
20:42 chromatic I'm not sure we can get anyone else to work on TT #389 who isn't.
20:43 chromatic Buildtime would be good.
20:44 chromatic Objections?  Other thoughts?  Line numbers?
20:44 Util +1 # Buildtime
20:44 darbelo q1q
20:45 chromatic Okay.  Roadmap review, allison?
20:45 allison we need to take a step back and move the 2.2 roadmap items out
20:46 allison the quick question for each is 2.3 or later?
20:46 allison (and how much later)
20:46 chromatic Sounds fair.
20:46 allison Fix system-dependend code in src/gc/system.c
20:47 allison 2.3?
20:47 allison later?
20:47 chromatic Later.
20:47 Coke do you have TT's for these?
20:47 allison or drop from roadmap?
20:47 allison TT #273
20:48 allison The report is: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/query?milestone=2.2
20:49 allison ok, later
20:49 chromatic Low priority, but probably not much work.
20:49 allison it seems like a good task, but not roadmap importance
20:50 allison changed to no milestone associated
20:51 allison export conventions
20:51 allison TT #566
20:51 chromatic R* still needs them.
20:51 allison then move to 2.3
20:51 Coke needs a new owner, likely.
20:52 allison will set to no owner for now
20:52 allison Migrate non-essential PMCs to dynpmcs
20:52 allison have we done as much of that as we plan to do for the immediate future?
20:52 chromatic Low priority, low risk... after 2.3.
20:53 allison will put 2.6
20:54 allison same migration of dynops
20:54 allison also 2.6?
20:54 chromatic Yes, after 2.3.
20:55 allison done
20:55 allison :invocant flag?
20:56 allison low priority, needed at some point by R* last I checked
20:56 allison say, 2.5?
20:57 chromatic Sure.
20:57 allison hll interop work
20:58 Coke (if it's needed by R*, please add "perl6" to the language slot)
20:58 allison is anyone actively working on that?
20:58 Coke not to my knowledge.
20:58 allison so, 2.3 unlikely
20:58 chromatic Right.
20:58 allison what's the priority for R*?
20:59 allison I'd say low, since it's needed for interacting with other languages, not implementing one language
20:59 allison so, 2.6?
20:59 chromatic Sure.
20:59 Coke wfm
21:00 allison done
21:00 allison documentation for parrot_debugger?
21:00 Coke I don't think that's a high priority.
21:00 allison 3.0?
21:01 NotFound allison: I'd rename that to "Improve parrot_debugger"
21:01 Coke improve isn't really closable.
21:01 allison NotFound: that's a separate ticket
21:02 allison (one with specific fixes)
21:02 NotFound Then I think is documented enough for his current functionality.
21:02 allison so, close?
21:02 allison I know some work went into it
21:02 NotFound I vote to close it.
21:03 allison I'll take ownership to check that we have an adequate manpage for the distros
21:03 allison and move it to 2.3
21:03 allison then close after that's done
21:04 allison bytecode migration tool and testing framework
21:04 allison I vote 3.0 or later
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21:05 Util 3.0+
21:06 allison other thoughts?
21:06 allison going, going...
21:06 allison moved to 3.0
21:06 allison Make all PMCs Subclassable
21:06 allison TT#789
21:06 chromatic As in "Get rid of PMCProxy"?
21:07 allison that's not mentioned in the ticket at the moment
21:07 allison it's more of "get subclassing working any which way"
21:07 chromatic That one bites Rakudo more and more often.
21:08 allison it's specifically addressing attributes of C-PMCs that aren't I/N/S/P types
21:08 allison (had some discussions on IRC this week about it, so forgive the repeat):
21:08 Coke That has also hurt partcl in the past. (though it won't impact partcl-nqp)
21:09 allison PMCProxy is a temporary solution to the fact that C-PMCs don't have metaobjects for their Class
21:09 allison so, don't allow introspection
21:09 allison the can go away as soon as that changes
21:09 allison (Lorito or sooner)
21:10 allison anyone want to volunteer to write the "Deprecate PMCProxy" ticket?
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21:11 Coke I don't understand what it woudl be replaced with.
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21:11 Coke (so, not I =-)
21:11 allison chromatic/Coke: on biting Rakudo/partcl, do you mean PMCProxy or non-register attributes?
21:11 chromatic Neither one in specific, merely the difficulty of subclassing.
21:12 chromatic I think the problem is crossing the PMCProxy boundary.
21:12 Coke allison: in general, the fact that Objects Ain't PMCs (or vice versea). There are things that you can (could?) only do in one case but not the other.
21:12 * dukeleto is going to paste a late report
21:13 allison dukeleto: go ahead
21:13 allison or not
21:14 allison chromatic/Coke: okay, then we'll keep this ticket at an earlier milestone, say 3.4? and free it from any particular implementation
21:15 chromatic Earlier is better, if we can swing it.
21:15 dukeleto What I did: * Got PL/Parrot to pass ints and strings to PIR subroutines * Helping out students with their Parrot-related GSoC proposals * Added Parrot_PMC_push_* and Parrot_PMC_pop_* to PDD11 * Created TT# 1532 for Dynloadable runcores: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1532
21:15 dukeleto What I will do: * Hack more on PL/Parrot * GSoC stuff
21:15 dukeleto EOR
21:15 allison 2.4
21:15 allison (I meant to dype)
21:15 allison type
21:17 allison Deprecate pushaction, pushmark, popmark
21:17 chromatic 2.4 is good.
21:18 allison changed subclassable PMCs ticket to 2.
21:18 allison 2.4
21:18 allison are pushaction, etc being used? do we need a replacement?
21:19 chromatic I think we deprecated them a long time ago.
21:19 allison there's no entry in DEPRECATED.pod
21:21 chromatic Time to add one!
21:21 allison adding an entry in DEPRECATED.pod, for deprecation in 2.3 and removal for 2.4
21:22 allison Configure probes for LLVM
21:23 allison blech, we really let the roadmap items pile up in 2.2
21:23 allison should we do the rest next week?
21:23 Util +1
21:23 Coke +1
21:24 mikehh we need to give some thought to prioritizing - so yes
21:24 allison a suggested second priority for the week: review 2.2 and 2.3 roadmap items
21:25 mikehh +1
21:25 chromatic +1
21:25 allison okay, closing up roadmap review, back to chromatic
21:25 chromatic Question time.
21:26 chromatic darbelo?
21:26 Coke q1q
21:28 chromatic No darbelo, Coke?
21:28 * mikehh darbelo is not here
21:28 Coke Just wondering if we can get some guidance on a few tickets. #1118, and... digging.
21:29 Coke eh. one a week is ok.
21:29 Coke I vote we reject the proposal. too much complexity, not enough gain.
21:31 dukeleto q1q
21:31 Coke don't need to vote here. If you feel strongly, add a comment on the ticket.
21:31 allison Coke: I vote reject
21:31 Coke ... my timing, as always, is excellent. =-)
21:31 allison will comment in ticket
21:32 Util Advantage to deferring until IMCC replacement is in production?
21:32 Coke danke. 1 down, 655 to go.
21:32 Coke Util: for me, it's not an imcc vs. pirc thing, it's a PIR thing.
21:32 Coke (also, pirc is not going to be ready anytime soon.)
21:33 Coke eoq & q1q.
21:33 chromatic dukeleto, question?
21:33 dukeleto I see that some PDD's have a postamble that has a maintainer, PDD version number, last-modified-by and other stuff,
21:33 dukeleto which mostly seems out-of-date. Do we still want these?
21:33 dukeleto Also, I would like to volunteer as a maintainer of the draft of PDD11.
21:33 Coke dukeleto: no.
21:33 Coke (i would vote for removing the ancient author info from most of our docs.)
21:33 dukeleto Coke: so i get rid of all those fields?
21:34 dukeleto this question was prompted by me updating PDD11 and seeing lots of crufty stuff
21:34 chromatic Deleting cruft is always good.
21:34 Coke last modified date might be helpful for folks reading on docs.parrot.org
21:34 dukeleto i am +1 to getting rid of most of the fields, except maybe Maintainer, which i think could still be useful
21:35 Coke who did the update is less helpful for the casual reader.
21:35 dukeleto Coke: i hear that, but it often is not updated
21:35 Coke dukeleto: then rip it out. Maintainer isn't going to be updated either. =-)
21:35 dukeleto Coke: i mean the metadata is not updated, while the doc is
21:35 Coke (perhaps we can update our pod2html process to put in a last modified date.)
21:35 allison author information goes in CREDITS, not in individual files
21:36 Coke allison: +1
21:36 dukeleto Coke: yes, I hear that. but it is nice to have a go-to person for a PDD, especially if it is still in draft
21:36 dukeleto so are "PDD maintainers" a concept that we no longer need?
21:36 Util dukeleto: svn log for that info, or Trac
21:36 allison see the coding standards around line 850
21:37 dukeleto Util: sounds fine to me
21:37 allison dukeleto: aye, the team maintains the PDDs
21:37 dukeleto allison: sounds good. i will remove the crufty data in any PDD's that i touch
21:38 dukeleto i will create a TT for removing the metadata from all PDD's
21:39 allison dukeleto: I removed it from the ones I launched out of draft
21:39 chromatic Coke, question?
21:39 dukeleto should the History section be left in PDDs?
21:39 dukeleto allison: ah, good. so only the drafts still have it. i can probably take care of those
21:39 Coke chromatic: I have to run, so i'll just chime in quick: any deprecations we want need to get ,
21:40 dukeleto docs/pdds/pdd00_pdd.pod talks about the Maintainer and Version sections. should i remove that stuff?
21:40 Coke into this release notice for 2.3; I would rather be aggresive in what we list because we can always NOT remove it.
21:40 dukeleto Coke: +1 to having longer release notes rather than shorter
21:40 allison dukeleto: the Version is just the SVN revision number, which is fine
21:40 Coke it will be a good idea to check the remaining dynops & dynpmcs & libraries for things that are of questionable use.
21:41 Coke gotta run.
21:41 allison dukeleto: ditch the History
21:41 dukeleto allison: ok
21:41 allison Coke: longer release notes are a good idea
21:42 allison Coke: and I'll move the dynpmc/dynop tickets back to 2.3 to remind us to enter deprecation items
21:47 chromatic Other questions?
21:50 mikehh we possibly need to look at nqp based tests
21:50 chromatic For libraries?
21:51 mikehh we had a problem in branches but now we have one failing codetest thinking it should be pir - t/profiling/profiling.t
21:51 mikehh thinks it should have a pir coda
21:52 mikehh when it is acvtually nqp based
21:52 mikehh actually
21:52 cotto_work I took a stab at fixing that but didn't get deep enough before I got distracted.
21:53 mikehh I was going to look into this last week but now it is coming up in trunk
21:54 cotto_work any reason this needs to be in #ps?
21:54 mikehh no - just thought I would mention it
21:55 cotto_work off to #parrot wit it then
21:55 mikehh as a possible problem that needs resolving
21:59 chromatic Anything else for #ps
21:59 chromatic ?
22:00 chromatic Let's call it a week then.
22:00 Util $_ = 'week'
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