Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-04-13

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Time Nick Message
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14:00 * plobsing likely won't make #ps
14:00 plobsing What I Did:
14:00 plobsing * stringnull support everywhere (including packfiles)
14:00 plobsing * make config.fpmc a HoS (saves space, faster to thaw => startup should benefit)
14:00 plobsing * nci deprecations (mainly UnManagedStruct)
14:01 plobsing What I Plan:
14:01 plobsing * more nci deprecations (focusing on dlfunc)
14:01 plobsing * convert libjit framebuilder to use hooks added for dynamic frame builder
14:01 plobsing * use as a prototype for framebuilder add-on libraries
14:01 plobsing * start an alternate frame builder
14:01 plobsing * try to do it in PIR (should be doable using callback interface)
14:01 plobsing * candidates: cc (pitched as posix by sorear++), tcc
14:01 plobsing EOR
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19:47 japhb DONE:
19:47 japhb * Parrot Quarterly Meeting.  Rock.
19:47 japhb * Perl6-lang discussions
19:47 japhb NEXT:
19:47 japhb * Plumage grant proposal
19:47 japhb * Plumage separable tasks -> dukeleto
19:47 japhb EOR
19:48 darbelo DONE:
19:48 darbelo * Explored making STRINGs smaller. Ran into trouble with code not respecting encapsulation.
19:48 darbelo * Discovered some of the dirty tricks we play with strings and buffers.
19:48 darbelo * Started removing some of the worst offenders. Once I'm done with IO we should be good.
19:48 darbelo TODO: * Remove the last fake strings and other encapsulation breakages in IO.
19:48 darbelo * Try again to slim down strings.
19:48 darbelo EOR
19:56 cotto_work joined #parrotsketch
19:57 Coke did: some work on partcl-nqp; unborked parrot lexical handling. EOR
20:00 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:00 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:00 mikehh * some fixes
20:00 mikehh * added to trac wiki
20:00 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:00 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:00 mikehh * continue looking at integrating nqp into codetests
20:00 mikehh * documentation
20:00 mikehh .eor
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20:07 NotFound What I did:
20:07 NotFound * Almost nothing, lack of time.
20:07 NotFound What I will do:
20:07 NotFound No plan
20:11 Util # Done in the last two weeks (missed last #ps meeting):
20:11 Util * Provided analysis for TT#1541
20:11 Util * Attended Parrot Virtual Developer Summit
20:11 Util # Plan to do:
20:11 Util * No plan yet
20:12 Util # Blockers:
20:12 Util * $WORK
20:12 Util .end
20:12 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
20:13 chromatic Worked on immutable strings; the branch is almost 5% faster than trunk.
20:13 chromatic No work on line numbers in PIR; blocked on a test framework.
20:13 chromatic Worked on a few optimizations; 2.3 is going to be the fastest Parrot in a long time.
20:13 chromatic Will continue to focus on immutable strings, constant string caching, and line numbers (the latter the highest priority).
20:17 Coke Q1Q: {Suggested focus this week: documentation improvements, since we shouldn't be mucking with code just before a big release anyway.}}
20:22 chromatic Will be a few minutes late; feel free to start without me.
20:25 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:27 allison Last week:
20:27 allison - The virtual development summit was a success.
20:27 allison - Implemented the fix needed for TT #389, fixed the few failing tests (that were pulling a method from the namespace without marking it with :sentry), and added some new tests. Not committed yet because PGE still depends on methods being stored in the namespace. Working on that now.
20:27 allison - Fixed some problems with authentication on the /languages repository and trac instance.
20:27 allison Next week:
20:28 allison - Work on the task list for GC refactors.
20:28 allison - Work on porting roadmap tasks to the wiki.
20:28 allison EOR
20:28 allison s/sentry/nsentry/
20:30 cotto_work #did:
20:30 cotto_work * reviewed and rated more gsoc proposals
20:30 cotto_work * took a stab at testing the line numbers of all pir files in t using ProfTest code
20:30 cotto_work * it turns out that parsing each line of the profile with a grammar is prohibitively slow (~2 min per pir test file)
20:31 cotto_work * using subst might work reasonably, perl 5 or manual parsing is probably the best bet
20:31 cotto_work * no tuits likely until this weekend
20:31 cotto_work * if someone else wants to do this before then, the relevant code to get a profile is in runtime/parrot/library/ProfTest/PIRProfile.nqp
20:31 cotto_work #will do:
20:31 cotto_work * not break the release
20:31 cotto_work #closed TTs:
20:31 cotto_work #eor
20:33 cotto_work HELO
20:33 NotFound Hola.
20:33 mikehh hi there
20:33 darbelo EHLO
20:33 japhb o/
20:34 chromatic Hi.  I have to talk to a client; can someone else run things?
20:35 mikehh allison?
20:36 allison hello
20:36 allison Did anyone not report yet?
20:37 allison How did we do on our priorities last week?
20:37 allison those were line number annotations and GSoC applications
20:37 cotto_work line numbers ran into surprise slowness
20:38 allison as in, the fixes caused slowness in execution?
20:38 cotto_work didn't have tuits to speed up the profiling test code
20:39 cotto_work no, the testing code is too slow to be usable on any significant subset of our pir tests
20:39 cotto_work ~2 min per pir test file
20:39 allison ah, slowness in the testing framework
20:39 allison that is surprising
20:40 allison further work on that this week?
20:41 cotto_work from me, this weekend looks plausible
20:41 allison great
20:41 allison We got a good round of GSoC applications
20:41 allison several are quite promising (including 2 mentioned in the virtual summit)
20:42 allison now just waiting to hear how many slots TPF got this year
20:42 cotto_work q1q
20:43 allison we'll do questions, and then roadmap
20:43 allison cotto?
20:43 cotto_work PVMW: we gonna have one or not?  I want to buy my plane tickets for yapc.
20:44 allison there may be something Rakudo related, but not a Parrot workshop at YAPC
20:44 cotto_work eoq then
20:45 darbelo Coke prepasted 1q
20:45 allison (we didn't want to exclude non-Perlies)
20:45 allison darbelo: could you copy Coke's q in? my scrollback doesn't go that far
20:46 darbelo Q1Q: {Suggested focus this week: documentation improvements, since we shouldn't be mucking with code just before a big release anyway.}}
20:46 darbelo Not much of a q, now that I look at it.
20:46 allison That's an excellent idea.
20:47 allison Do we have volunteers to work on documentation this week?
20:47 allison (The new policy being to only set weekly priorities if we have at least 1-2 people working on the task.)
20:48 mikehh I already intended to
20:48 allison That's one
20:48 allison I'll help
20:48 mikehh but what specifically needs doing?
20:48 japhb I *may* be able to do some work on distutils doc this week.  50-50.
20:49 cotto_work mikehh: filling in stub documentation is great.
20:49 mikehh 'k
20:49 Util Is there a simple way to list the stubs?
20:49 japhb (distutils has a lot of stub docs that I found confusing while interfacing to it, so maybe this is a hint to put my hard-won knowledge back into the source.  :-)
20:49 cotto_work if you get confused, ask in #parrot.
20:50 darbelo Util: not waht you are asking for, but now the headerizer warns about functions with no POD.
20:50 cotto_work Util: t/codingstd/c_function_docs.t gripes about boilerplate-only docs.
20:51 mikehh there is a list in the Wiki
20:52 Util thanks
20:53 allison Any further questions?
20:54 allison So, we'll pick up documentation as this weeks priority, and drop GSoC applications (since that's closed).
20:55 allison Do we want to keep line number annotations as a priority?
20:55 cotto_work gsoc review and scoring is still valuable
20:55 cotto_work I'll be working on it either way if chromatic doesn't get impatient to do it himself.
20:56 NotFound I'll try to look at it, but don't expect to have much time available this week.
20:57 allison okay, I kept line number annotations
20:58 allison On the roadmap review, I'll skip the usual ticket run, since we're changing the process there after the virtual dev summit
20:58 mikehh make sure everything is ok for the release
20:58 allison mikehh: good idea, added
20:59 allison is there anyone here who wasn't at the virtual dev summit?
20:59 NotFound Me
20:59 cotto_work afk; will backscroll
20:59 allison and for those who were, are we comfortable with the process changes?
21:00 darbelo wfm
21:00 japhb yes
21:00 mikehh let's see how they work
21:00 allison particularly, a chance to speak before we dive in and convert a pile of tickets to wiki pages
21:01 NotFound I lacked the time to look, so no chance.
21:01 NotFound But no problem anyway.
21:01 allison NotFound: the big change is to a policy of only using Trac for bugs
21:01 NotFound Good
21:01 mikehh I think one of the problems has been in setting the ticket tags/reasons etc
21:01 allison NotFound: and using wiki pages for development tasks
21:02 Coke allison: I am not convinced that moving wishlist items to a wiki page is helpful.
21:02 allison mikehh: problem in the old strategy or in the new one?
21:02 Coke but I'm also not opposed to it. I agree we could manage our existing tracs better.
21:02 mikehh allison: old
21:03 allison Coke: we talked about that a fair bit
21:03 mikehh too many non-bugs not set as RFC or such
21:04 allison Coke: I can't guarantee it'll help wishlist items get more attention
21:04 allison Coke: I suspect it'll be about the same attention
21:04 allison Coke: but I do think it will help us see bugs more quickly
21:04 allison Coke: and help us stay on top of them
21:05 allison right now bugs tend to get lost in the development tasks, roadmap items, and wishlist items
21:06 allison basically, I'm not sure either, but it's worth trying
21:06 allison Coke: what do you think about maintenance
21:07 allison Coke: will wiki pages be more difficult to maintain?
21:07 allison Coke: more prone to staleness?
21:07 allison (I ask because you and kid51 do a lot of the ticket queue maintenance)
21:10 Coke yes, It's more of a pain to maintain and report on.
21:10 Coke (if you want to see only bugs, I can whip up a trac report for that.)
21:10 Coke (skip rfcs, roadmaps, wishlists, etc.)
21:11 Coke Would that help?
21:11 Coke (sorry, also $DAYJOBbing here.
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21:12 allison what was the last thing that got through before I timed out?
21:13 allison okay, got Coke's reply from the archive
21:13 allison It would help, but I'm not sure it's enough
21:14 allison A lot of the wishlist items are things we never intend to work on, or at least not for a long time
21:15 allison Though, a bigger problem is the lack of ability to group development tasks by... well, basically by branch
21:16 bacek ~~
21:16 Coke I'll add a report this evening and advertise it on list.
21:16 allison Coke: that's helpful, thanks
21:17 Coke I can also update existing reports that shouldn't have wishlist items.
21:17 allison Coke: there is something valuable here, and it's more of a subtle perspective shift than an earth-shattering change
21:18 allison we have been using wiki pages more and more for development tasks
21:18 allison and tickets less and less
21:18 Coke I see no problem using task lists to flesh out existing tickets.
21:19 allison but then what do we need the ticket for?
21:19 Coke to track and report on progress?
21:19 allison we do that on the wiki page
21:19 allison (we already do that on the wiki page)
21:19 Coke who reads that?
21:19 Coke the people working on the tasks.
21:20 allison aye
21:20 allison who reads the ticket?
21:20 allison same people
21:20 Coke it's scattershot, there are over a dozen task pages, all differently named.
21:20 allison right, so a big part of it is organizing the wiki pages
21:21 allison one page for "wishlist" , one page for "development tasks", likely grouped by "active", "inactive", etc
21:21 allison we need to do that anyway
21:22 Coke or we could, I don't know, use trac. =-)
21:22 allison we are using trac
21:22 Coke a wiki that happens to be in trac, sure.
21:22 allison a different part of trac
21:22 allison the nice thing about trac is, they're all integrated
21:23 Coke the reporting functionality is not linked in, no.
21:23 allison wiki syntax works in tickets, ticket and revision links work in wiki pages
21:23 allison aye, that was my major complaint too
21:23 allison but, what do the reports tell us?
21:24 allison about development tasks
21:24 Coke which makes it a waste of time for me.
21:24 allison it's important to track our bug stats
21:24 chromatic Tell me how to write and maintain this wiki page in bug reports, and I'll use bug reports to manage my tasks: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot​/wiki/PerformanceImprovements
21:24 allison but is it important to track stats on every development task and wishlist item?
21:24 Coke And what's going into a particular revision. I am not sure why you think we'll get better traction via wiki than via tickets.
21:25 allison actually, I think the work we do will be equivalent
21:25 allison not that more tasks will get done
21:25 Coke I mean the tracking.
21:25 allison but that the important bugs won't get lost
21:26 Coke "i'm working on these tasks", or "we should have this done for this release".
21:26 Coke they're not lost now.
21:26 Coke But we're not getting anywhere here. Do what you need to, that's fine.
21:26 allison ah! that's the important process change we started with first
21:26 Coke I had to leave 30m ago. ~~
21:27 allison are you okay with trying it out?
21:27 allison not going to ask you to do huge ticket conversions or anything
21:28 allison (I actually think converting old tickets is mostly a waste of time)
21:29 Coke conversions - i can guarantee that I won't be doing any more ticket conversions, ever.
21:29 Coke (the RT to trac burned me out on that.)
21:29 allison It burned out all of us.
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21:30 japhb plobsing, we're an hour in ...
21:31 plobsing just glad I made it at all. reading log now.
21:31 allison Coke: thanks for the feedback, we'll spend some more time thinking through the details
21:32 allison Coke: (when one of the two people who do most of the maintenance work on a system aren't enthusiastic about a change, it's important)
21:33 allison Any more questions or comments before we wrap up for the day?
21:33 Whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
21:33 Util q1q
21:33 allison Util: go ahead
21:34 Util is it known that many binaries/packages linked to on http://parrot.org/download are out-of-date?
21:34 Util Cygwin, MacPorts, and Debian, at least.
21:34 allison Util: hadn't looked at it lately
21:35 allison Debian you're absolutely right, that's the wrong link
21:35 allison that was the substitute while we were waiting for Debian to sync recent Parrot packages
21:35 allison none of the others look like they include version numbers
21:35 allison is it just that those distros are behind?
21:36 Util The MacPorts portfile is for 1.0, and has MD5 sum for it.
21:36 allison I also notice that we don't include distros like Fedora or SuSE
21:37 japhb With the Perl 5.12, I was looking at the perl.org download page.  Very swank.  WBNI we could do something similar.
21:38 japhb (Not as flashy as say Firefox downloads, but I think it fits the target audience well.)
21:38 Util I have no suggestions yet for process improvement; just bringing the problem to light. Their may always be a lag on platforms that the release manager cannot update directly. Good PR if we can make it work, though.
21:38 allison japhb: yeah, that's definitely possible
21:39 allison japhb: most of our instructions are "follow your packaging system's install procedure"
21:40 allison Util: so I want to say "could you submit a ticket for that?"
21:40 japhb Sure, but it's the Windows and Mac people that we need to care about in this case, because they don't have a unified packaging system (yet).
21:40 Util allison: will do
21:40 japhb And they're the ones most likely to go to a downloads page.
21:40 allison japhb: aye, but we don't do binary builds for Mac/Windows
21:41 japhb Someone was doing that in the past (Windows, IIRC) ... did that get dropped?
21:41 allison there's a sourceforge project
21:41 allison it's listed on that page
21:41 Util Win32 released 2.2 the same day as we did.
21:41 allison (updated to 2.2, I just checked)
21:42 Util Looks like Rakudo for Win32, too.
21:43 japhb Good.  And it's not that parrot.org/download is *bad*, just that perl.org's version seems more ... inviting somehow.
21:43 allison okay, we'll work on that a bit, see if we can spruce it up
21:43 cotto_work joined #parrotsketch
21:43 allison more q's?
21:44 mikehh have we had any thoughts on runcores?
21:44 cotto_work mikehh++
21:44 mikehh might be a good idea to get deprecations in with 2.4
21:45 mikehh sorry 2.3
21:45 cotto_work Most of them are never used and will add extra work to the ops_pct branch.
21:45 cotto_work iwbn to get rid of some of them
21:45 allison That's a wrap, thanks everyone, talk to you next week.
21:45 cotto_work ?
21:46 allison joined #parrotsketch
21:46 mikehh I think allison had to go
21:46 mikehh oh back
21:46 allison apologies, really strange network lag
21:47 cotto_work so, about trimming down our runcores...
21:47 allison I didn't see any answers from anyone for a couple of minutes
21:48 mikehh from the testy point of view - I think we need testb, testF and testr
21:48 mikehh testf
21:48 allison yes, runcore deprecations in 2.3 are a good idea
21:48 allison (reading from log)
21:50 cotto_work allison: which ones do you see as less than valuable?
21:50 mikehh as I see it the runcores were experimental and I don't know if anyone uses them these days
21:51 mikehh I think we need to keep the ability to add - especially jit if it arrives
21:52 allison I don't know that those count as runcores in the sense of something we compile separately
21:52 cotto_work we have slow, fast, switch, exec, gcdebug, debugger, cgoto, cgp and profiling
21:54 allison It's cgoto, cgp, and switch that have to be compiled into separate .o files
21:54 mikehh for example does any use cgoto, cgp, switch or exec
21:55 mikehh cgoto, cgp and switch are tested in fulltest, but otherwise?
21:55 allison joined #parrotsketch
21:55 cotto_work reducing the amount of perl code required for preprocessing .ops files into C is my motivation here
21:56 allison yes, and also reducing the bulk of libparrot
21:57 allison how about a mailing list proposal of what to deprecate?
21:57 allison that'll give us a wider set of comments
21:58 allison We can always put in a deprecation notice, and not remove everything we deprecated, if it turns out it is needed.
21:58 cotto_work ok
21:59 allison do you want to post, or should I do it?
21:59 allison should be a quick one
21:59 allison so, not a big deal
21:59 cotto_work you can commit from where you are
22:00 cotto_work I have to wait for cotto to take care of it. ;)
22:00 allison :)
22:01 allison okay, I'll spend a few minutes on it right after this
22:01 cotto_work thanks
22:01 allison Let's call that a day.
22:01 Util cgoto/cgp/switch always seemed to me to be about keeping options open about performance, back when we had not built enough of Parrot to tell if one of the runcores would be a clear winner for all platforms and all client languages.
22:01 Util Do we have a sense of a clear winner now?
22:01 Util nm. will take to mailing list
22:02 allison Util: we don't, and profiling would be a good idea before we drop the axe
22:02 allison Thanks all!
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