Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-04-20

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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18:38 darbelo DONE:
18:38 darbelo * Minor io-string cleanup and decoupling.
18:38 darbelo * Tested the release.
18:38 darbelo * Removed gdbm and digest dynpcs.
18:38 darbelo TODO:
18:38 darbelo * More io/str cleanups
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18:38 darbelo .EOR
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18:56 Coke parrot:
18:56 Coke * fixed up the ftp links to advertise "supported" instead of "stable", but had to keep old stable dir around for historical reasons, though.
18:56 Coke * cleaned up PDD sections a bit.
18:56 Coke partcl-nqp:
18:56 Coke * initial support for tcl arrays.
18:56 Coke * bring over [format], [vwait] from partcl
18:56 Coke * run a lot of the test suite, TODOing those tests that are NYI in -nqp.
18:56 Coke rakudo:
18:56 Coke * fixed a single spec test.
18:56 Coke * very minor ticket wrangling.
18:56 Coke .
18:56 kurahaupo Is #ps still on at 1830utc?
18:57 kurahaupo (26 minutes ago)
18:58 Coke No.
18:58 Topic for #parrotsketchis now "Tuesday at 20:30 UTC"
19:16 dukeleto What I did:
19:16 dukeleto * Added some POD to Tapir that is in core
19:16 dukeleto * Realized that Tapir was in core (need to figure out from fperrad when it forked from the github repo)
19:16 dukeleto * Wrote this blog post about PL/Parrot: http://leto.net/perl/2010/04/plparrot-flies.html
19:17 dukeleto * My talk about Blizkost got accepted to YAPC::NA 2010 http://yapc2010.com/yn2010/talk/2670
19:17 dukeleto What I will do:
19:17 dukeleto * Stuff relating to GSoC
19:17 dukeleto * Hack on PL/Parrot
19:17 dukeleto * Work on Blizkost + PL/Parrot  presentations
19:17 dukeleto Blocking on:
19:17 dukeleto .EOR
19:17 dukeleto * PL/Parrot needs some security features from Parrot. I will ask more detailed questions on parrot-dev
19:24 NotFound What I did:
19:24 NotFound -parrot
19:24 NotFound * Minor fixes
19:24 NotFound * Testing
19:24 NotFound -winxed
19:24 NotFound * New predef function cry
19:24 NotFound * Environment var WINXED_PATH to locate stage's pbc
19:24 NotFound * Minor fixes
19:24 NotFound What I will do:
19:24 NotFound No plan
19:24 NotFound EOR
19:42 cotto_work #eor
20:08 allison What I did:
20:08 allison - Built test packages for Debian and Ubuntu in preparation for 2.3 release.
20:08 allison - Applied the fix for TT #389.
20:08 allison - Worked on the task list for GC refactors.
20:08 allison What I will do:
20:08 allison - Build (final) 2.3 packages for Debian and Ubuntu.
20:08 allison - Continue planning GC refactors.
20:08 allison EOR
20:14 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
20:14 chromatic I worked on the immutable strings branch.  It's ready to merge, pending a discussion from Rakudo as to when they want to deal with it.
20:14 chromatic I worked on line numbering and have a branch ready to merge there.  That should fix up a lot of problems.
20:15 chromatic I looked at some optimizations.
20:15 chromatic I don't know how much time I'll have this week, and I'll try to be back in 15 minutes, but feel free to start without me.
20:22 Util # Done:
20:22 Util * Provided partial analysis for TT#1557 (pbc_disassemble fails on large PBCs)
20:22 Util * Found unrelated SigSegV with `pbc_disassemble` and namespaces/methods (Will ticket tomorrow)
20:22 Util * Opened TT#1570 #1570 (Out-of-date binaries/packages on Parrot.org) as requested in last #ps.
20:22 Util # Plan to do:
20:22 Util * None, or `pbc_disassemble` if time opens up.
20:22 Util # Blockers:
20:22 Util * $WORK
20:22 Util .end
20:24 japhb DONE:
20:24 eternaleye joined #parrotsketch
20:24 japhb * Draft of first grant proposal to allison; review from same
20:25 japhb TODO:
20:25 japhb * Final version of first grant proposal to allison/board
20:25 japhb * Fix ash's OpenGL warnings (decided not to do before 2.3 to avoid risk)
20:25 japhb EOR
20:32 allison Hi all, who's here?
20:32 cotto_work hi
20:32 Util Hello
20:32 japhb o/
20:32 NotFound Hola
20:33 allison Let's get started.
20:33 allison How did we do on our weekly priorities this week?
20:34 allison Lots of testing for 2.3
20:34 allison from chromatic's report, it looks like we've got a fix for line number annotations
20:35 allison was there some documentation cleanup work?
20:35 allison (that may have been too general for a weekly priority)
20:35 allison good progress all around
20:36 allison What should our priorities be for this week?
20:36 Coke minor pdd cleanups, no content updates from me.
20:36 Coke (on doc cleanup)
20:36 Coke post-release, I recommend applying as many deprecations as possible. (already under full swing.)
20:36 Coke s/under/in/
20:37 allison apply deprecations
20:37 particle i agree with coke, and add branch merging.
20:37 allison and also merge branches?
20:37 cotto_work That sounds like it'll happen whether it's a priority or not.
20:37 japhb q1q
20:37 allison yah, in this case, the weekly priority is about recognizing where the work focus should be for the week
20:37 chromatic Deprecations please.
20:38 Coke I just took the RetCon one, should be able to make that hit in the next day or so.
20:39 allison set the Priority topic on #parrot
20:39 chromatic Will the next Rakudo release target 2.3 or are they tracking trunk for the next couple of days?
20:40 allison I don't know. No moritz or jonathan today.
20:40 japhb pmichaud was about yesterday, looks like he's in #perl6 right now
20:41 dukeleto hola
20:41 japhb I just asked for pmichaud or jnthn to wander over
20:41 pmichaud joined #parrotsketch
20:41 pmichaud here.
20:41 chromatic I have a Rakudo branch to make it work with immutable strings but I don't want to merge that branch for Rakudo until after the next release.
20:41 particle all rakudo releases track parrot releases
20:41 particle s/track/target/
20:42 allison for pmichaud: [21:39]<chromatic>Will the next Rakudo release target 2.3 or are they tracking trunk for the next couple of days?
20:42 pmichaud we target 2.3
20:42 allison makes sense
20:42 chromatic If we merge immutable_strings into Parrot now, will it affect the Rakudo release?
20:42 pmichaud I haven't heard anything to the contrary, and standard policy is that rakudo releases target parrot releases (unless we can't)
20:42 particle it shouldn't, unless parrot releases 2.3.1
20:43 chromatic We can cherry pick to make a 2.3.1 if necessary.
20:43 particle well, then, merge away.
20:43 pmichaud confirming on #perl6 now
20:43 allison particle: if we did, it would be bug fixes only, not full trunk
20:43 japhb Has the mandlebrot rakudo test been done against Parrot 2.3 yet?  Earlier I noticed it had very bad memory behavior ...
20:44 chromatic No, I haven't looked at it yet.
20:45 pmichaud consensus on #perl6 is that we're following normal process this month -- i.e., rakudo #28 release will target Parrot 2.3.0 release
20:45 pmichaud so merge away
20:45 chromatic Thanks.
20:46 allison Roadmap review next.
20:46 allison With the process changes discussed on the mailing list, the "Roadmap" tab in Trac is no longer the Design roadmap.
20:46 pmichaud (btw, "merge away" was meant for Parrot to merge in immutable strings, not to apply the changes to Rakudo yet :)
20:46 allison It's just the collection of tasks we hope to get done in a particular release.
20:46 pmichaud (changes to Rakudo take place after the Rakudo release)
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20:47 allison (which seems to be how we mostly use it anyway)
20:47 allison I don't see any roadmap tasks tagged for 2.4 anyway
20:47 allison the list there is mainly deprecations
20:48 allison same for 2.5
20:48 allison 2.6 has a few, so will quickly run through and see if some should be removed
20:49 allison - Implement Async I/O
20:49 allison Is that a priority for 2.6?
20:49 chromatic Rakudo needs *better* IO, but I'm not sure that it needs async IO right now.
20:49 japhb Personally, I see that as a nice to have, not a priority (the async part, I mean -- I agree with chromatic)
20:50 cotto_work sounds like it'd go well with the Parrot hybrid threads gsoc proposal
20:50 allison let's drop it from the roadmap, keep it as a ticket (or on an I/O tasklist)
20:50 tewk A select PMC would be a nice compromise until full async io lands.
20:50 japhb tewk: +1
20:50 allison cotto: probably after GSoC
20:50 allison tewk: that's a good idea
20:51 chromatic Can someone put Select on a wishlist page on the wiki?
20:51 allison need to add the page
20:52 allison - next cross-compile configuration
20:52 allison this is important for building for, say, Android
20:52 allison is it a priority for 2.6?
20:52 particle i don't have an android device yet, so not for me
20:53 particle how about working on security, for pl/parrot?
20:53 japhb Won't this be part of the RTEMS gsoc, if they are approved?
20:53 allison japhb: yes
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20:53 dukeleto security++
20:54 dukeleto japhb: what will be part of RTEMS gsoc?
20:54 allison particle: security is important
20:54 japhb dukeleto, I meant the cross-compile; is there a PL/Parrot gsoc as well?
20:54 allison I'll list the other tasks currently on 2.6 and we can pick what our next "supported release priority" should be
20:55 allison pirc, bytecode generation from post, JIT, portable runtime, sweep-free gc
20:55 allison all good tasks, but none are grabbing me as "this is the big thing we should work on for 2.6"
20:56 allison the one we said in the virtual dev summit was GC
20:56 chromatic GC is it for me.
20:56 Coke pirc doesn't even compile at the moment. are we sure we want it to be the replacement for imcc?
20:56 japhb What is portable runtime again?
20:56 japhb (And I vote GC as #1 priority)
20:56 allison japhb: like APR (apache)
20:56 japhb ah
20:57 allison Okay, on the roadmap wiki page, I'll list GC as the development priority for 2.6
20:57 allison that wraps up roadmap review
20:57 allison chromatic, do you want to run questions?
20:58 allison (and q1q from me)
20:58 chromatic Sure, let me backlog and find questioners.
20:58 japhb (my question went away earlier)
20:58 dukeleto japhb: no, PL/Parrot is not part of GSoC
20:58 japhb dukeleto, ah, OK
20:58 chromatic If japhb has no question, then it's allison time.
20:59 allison I'm working on the GC tasklist, basically "what do we need to do next?" I'm collecting a list of the pain points in the current GC. What are yours?
20:59 chromatic compact_pool is silly.  Exceedingly silly.
20:59 allison speed and concurrency are the two big ones I've found so far
21:00 chromatic It's also bad for cache thrashing.
21:00 allison can you expand on silly?
21:00 chromatic Sure: it copies all compactable pools even if they're completely full or almost full.
21:00 allison (it probably needs to be taken out behind the shed and shot, but I'm also looking for what to replace it with)
21:00 chromatic That's busy work.
21:01 chromatic A big problem with the current GC is that it never can free allocated pools if the working set shrinks dramatically.
21:01 chromatic There are reasons you might not want to do that... but it's a flaw, because sometimes you do.
21:01 cotto_work afk
21:01 Coke (tasklist) start with all the tickets that are on the GC component?
21:02 allison Coke: yeah, I'm also doing ticket review
21:02 allison I'm looking for big-picture
21:02 tewk chromatic, to solve that you need a precise compacting collector.
21:02 allison as in "if I were doing research on completely replacing the GC (which I'm not really, not quite, anyway) what would I be looking for
21:04 chromatic Whatever we do, we have to be able to identify and collect short-lived garbage much more cheaply.
21:04 chromatic We can avoid that pain to some extent by reducing the amount of garbage we create (and that's been my strategy), but if we want to make function calls less expensive, we have to do this.
21:04 mikehh should we be using different pools?
21:05 mikehh to what extent do we know if it is going to be short-lived?
21:05 chromatic Without escape analysis, we don't know precisely.
21:06 chromatic We can suspect: most continuations don't survive past their return.  We can probably play games with morphing and upgrading when we capture a continuation.
21:07 allison CallContexts are also pretty much always short-lived
21:07 mikehh I have been looking at aspects of copying collection - only used items are copied
21:08 chromatic But that gets into the madness of compact_pool.
21:08 mikehh yeah
21:08 bacek o/
21:08 allison okay, this is a useful brainstorm
21:08 allison I've taken notes
21:09 allison and feel free to email me more ideas
21:09 allison (even if it's no more than "hey, I had a crazy thought..."
21:09 bacek (compact_pool) I have a branch for improving compact_pool. Unfortunately it's slower then trunk...
21:09 allison bacek: branch name?
21:10 bacek compact_pool_revamp
21:10 allison thanks, will take a look
21:10 allison end of question, back to chromatic
21:10 chromatic Other questions?
21:11 chromatic Comments?  Concerns?
21:11 chromatic Okay, let's wrap it up them.  Merge time.
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