Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-06-29

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Time Nick Message
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09:39 moritz joined #parrotsketch
09:39 moritz What I've done (parrot-ish stuff):
09:40 moritz * Worked with tcurtis++ on getting some static analysis into
09:40 moritz Rakudo, using the new optimization framework.
09:40 moritz I have to praise tcurtis for being responsive, helpful
09:40 moritz and all in all very pleasant to work with!
09:40 moritz * tried to write a FakeDBD::pg driver using Pg.pir
09:40 moritz * Exercised Pg.pir that way: tt#1692, tt#1695, tt#1696
09:40 moritz Most of those shold be low-hanging fruits.
09:40 moritz If somebody fixes them soon, our chances for shipping
09:40 moritz postgres database support with Rakudo Star are pretty good.
09:40 moritz (I'll probably not make it to today's meeting)
09:40 moritz EOR
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19:20 darbelo DONE
19:20 darbelo -   Blog post.
19:20 darbelo -   Plumage resurrection.
19:20 darbelo -   NFG iterators and literals.
19:20 darbelo -   NFG freeze and thaw. Not finished yet.
19:20 darbelo -   Hate packfiles.
19:20 darbelo -   Got architectural input.
19:20 darbelo -   Hate packfiles.
19:20 darbelo TODO
19:20 NotFound joined #parrotsketch
19:20 darbelo -   Hate packfiles.
19:20 Chandon joined #parrotsketch
19:20 darbelo -   Finish freeze and thaw.
19:20 darbelo -   Hate packfiles.
19:20 darbelo -   More transcoding work.
19:20 darbelo -   Hate packfiles.
19:20 darbelo EOR.
19:32 cotto_work #did:
19:32 cotto_work - met with khairul to discuss his gsoc project
19:32 cotto_work - he's a little behind but not so badly that his slack weeks won't help
19:32 cotto_work - hacked on PIRATE
19:32 cotto_work - implemented keys and strings (mostly)
19:32 cotto_work - started reading and understanding the linear scan register allocator
19:32 cotto_work - started a couple deprecation pages (ParrotDeprecations and HowToDeprecate (hijacked from dukeleto++))
19:32 cotto_work - got helpful feedback from Austin++ and others
19:32 cotto_work - OSUOSL has a trac/git test site up at http://trac.parrot.org/parrottest/browser
19:33 cotto_work - it works but is really slow
19:33 cotto_work - my preference would be to host on github with the trac/github plugin
19:33 cotto_work - didn't have tuits for writing docs about GPG signing of releases
19:33 cotto_work #will do:
19:33 cotto_work - implement linear scan register allocator in PIRATE
19:33 cotto_work - deprecation policy work
19:33 cotto_work - tuits likely to be limited
19:33 cotto_work #eor
19:33 cotto_work qq
19:33 cotto_work q2q
19:34 darbelo_ joined #parrotsketch
19:37 NotFound What I did:
19:37 NotFound -parrot
19:38 NotFound * Added more PMC tests
19:38 NotFound * Implemented isatty method in Handle, deprecated is_tty
19:38 NotFound * Miscellaneous fixes and cleaning
19:38 NotFound * Allow usage of function-like objects in Parrot_pcc_invoke_from_sig_object
19:38 NotFound -winxed
19:38 NotFound * Namespace scoped 'using extern' meaning '.loadlib'
19:38 NotFound * Automatic loading of math ops when math predefs are used
19:38 NotFound * Changed handling of +, - and * when both operands are var
19:38 NotFound * Updated and improved some examples
19:38 NotFound What I will do:
19:38 NotFound No plan
19:38 NotFound EOR
19:39 Coke Done:
19:39 Coke - attended YAPC, including a mini BOF about rakudo's pain^Wuncomfy
19:39 Coke points. Kid51 posted the minutes from that, but chromatic or I
19:39 Coke should probably do a writeup.
19:39 Coke Partcl:
19:39 Coke - tricked Matt Diephouse into committing code to partcl-nqp!
19:39 Coke - Matt then tricked me back. LOTS of improvements to partcl this week.
19:39 Coke Will Do:
19:39 Coke - Releasing next versions of parrot /and/ Rakudo compiler.
19:39 Coke - for parrot, want to make sure HTML docs are fixed. About 40% of the
19:39 Coke way there. If you want to improve docs, concentrate on adding POD,
19:39 Coke while I hack on the html converter borkage.
19:39 Coke - Need to review experimental items before the release. let's plan on
19:39 Coke next week.
19:39 Coke - Need to review existing deprecation announcements. Anything that
19:39 Coke doesn't have an existing alternate and explicit instructions on how to
19:39 Coke cope with the change should be considered for rejection.
19:39 Coke - Want to do a news announcement that tracks since last supported
19:39 Coke release, not last release, including:
19:39 Coke - committer names, patches from; diffstat; expanded, non-core-hacker
19:39 Coke friendly descriptions
19:39 Coke .EOR
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19:41 mikehh What I did since my last report:
19:41 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
19:41 mikehh * various fixes
19:41 mikehh * branch testing and some fixes
19:41 mikehh * tested rakudo, partcl-nqp, pir/PIRATE and some plumage
19:41 mikehh * somehow got my name put down as release manager for 2.7.0
19:41 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
19:41 mikehh * testing and fixing
19:41 mikehh * put some effort in going through the release documentation
19:41 mikehh .eor
19:45 ash_ joined #parrotsketch
19:45 Chandon Done:
19:45 Chandon * Found new and interesting Parrot compiler errors.
19:45 Chandon Will do (in gsoc_threads branch):
19:45 Chandon * Get timers actually working.
19:45 Chandon * Write a blog post.
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20:07 bacek Done:
20:07 bacek * Start reimplementing PCT based PIR compiler from scratch. Codename PIRATE.
20:07 bacek * It's alive
20:07 bacek * Convinced tcurtis++ to generalize PAST optimizer framework to be Tree optimizer.
20:07 bacek * Background thinking of gc_massacre tuning.
20:07 bacek Todo:
20:07 bacek * Made PIRATE self-hosting. Current todo list on https://www.rememberthemilk.co​m/home/bacek/14225697/#section.tasks
20:07 bacek * Discuss with pmichaud about migrating PCT to PIRATE's POST.
20:07 bacek * Possibly merge gc_massacre in current stage without defaulting to new GC.
20:07 bacek EOR
20:10 plobsing_work What I Did:
20:10 plobsing_work + work on dynop_mapping
20:10 plobsing_work - resolves dynop loading issue
20:10 plobsing_work - mostly works right now (hangs one pct test, some codetest failures)
20:10 plobsing_work - still a little rough (eg: allocates more memory than necessary in places)
20:10 plobsing_work What I Plan:
20:10 plobsing_work + dynop_mapping
20:10 plobsing_work - get fulltest passing
20:11 plobsing_work - merge
20:11 plobsing_work - improve remaining weak points
20:11 plobsing_work Blockers:
20:11 plobsing_work + time
20:11 plobsing_work + brains
20:11 plobsing_work EOR
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20:15 tcurtis What I did:
20:15 tcurtis * Refactored most of the non-PAST-specific aspects of PAST::Pattern/Walker/Transformer into superclasses(Tree::Pattern/Walker/Transformer and PCT::Pattern).
20:15 tcurtis - Rewrote PAST::Walker/Transformer in NQP to make this easier.
20:15 tcurtis - Now works on any Capture.
20:15 tcurtis - Moved PAST::Pattern::Any/Constant/Closure to Tree::Pattern::*.
20:15 tcurtis * Discovered that you can't partially inherit a multi-method
20:15 tcurtis - Not sure if this is a bug or intended behavior
20:15 tcurtis - Ticket: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1690
20:15 tcurtis * Refactored implementation of ACCEPTSEXACTLY method for PCT::Pattern subclasses.
20:15 tcurtis - Now instead of having to manually write type-checking, attribute checking, and such for each subclass, just have to have .target_class and .attributes methods.
20:15 tcurtis * Wrote PCT::Pattern subclasses for POST::Node subclasses.
20:15 tcurtis * Added a PAST::Pattern::Control classes(had missed it initially).
20:15 tcurtis * Partially implemented $*ARGFILES for Rakudo.
20:15 tcurtis * Renamed Tree::Pattern::Match.from to .orig for greater similarity to Perl 6 regex Match results.
20:15 tcurtis - Kept .from as an alias for now.
20:15 tcurtis * Worked on optimizations for PIRATE some.
20:16 tcurtis * Blog post:
20:16 tcurtis - http://www.parrot.org/content/generalization​-treepattern-treetransformer-and-treewalker
20:16 tcurtis What I will do:
20:16 tcurtis * Implement a less recursive variant of Tree::Pattern matching.
20:16 tcurtis - example use case from moritz++: http://nopaste.snit.ch/21658
20:16 tcurtis * Implement options for .transform to make it more analogous to .ACCEPTS.
20:16 tcurtis * Fix any other problems or bugs moritz finds in my stuff.
20:16 tcurtis * Update tests and docs following the generalization.
20:16 tcurtis * Continue working on optimizations for PIRATE.
20:16 tcurtis * Possibly work on optimizations for other compilers.
20:16 tcurtis * Hope other people start trying out Tree::Pattern/Walker/Transformer.
20:16 tcurtis - Help anyone who does.
20:16 tcurtis * Write another blog post.
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20:17 chromatic Done:
20:17 chromatic - plenty of optimizations, mostly for Rakudo startup but some runtime
20:17 chromatic - planning Lorito's security model
20:18 chromatic - thinking about new metamodel post 2.6
20:18 chromatic Will do:
20:18 chromatic - more optimizations
20:18 chromatic - working on a new STRING API, could use some assistance
20:18 chromatic - helping to merge and tune gc_massacre
20:20 Util # Done in the last 2 weeks (missed last #ps due to YAPC):
20:20 Util * Rakudo - Changed dynops build from deprecated ops2c.pl to new NQP-based ops2c
20:20 Util * Parrot - reviewed branch cfunctionsdocs
20:20 Util * YAPC - Attended conference, and all Perl6-related talks and BOFs.
20:20 Util # Plan to do:
20:20 Util * Perl6book additions
20:20 Util * Fix Win32 Rakudo problems
20:20 Util # Blockers:
20:20 Util * $WORK
20:20 Util .end
20:26 khairul Did:
20:26 khairul . Blog post at http://parrot.mangkok.com/?p=118
20:26 khairul . Added tests for Instrument::Probe
20:26 khairul . Instrumented GC_Subsystem
20:26 khairul Will Do:
20:26 khairul . Complete the events interface for GC.
20:26 khairul . Instrument PMC vtables.
20:26 khairul EOR
20:29 ash_ Done, I pass all of the NCI tests now except the callbacks, (working on those), after i finish callbacks, more testing on would be nice (i have OS X 10.6, and have tested on Ubuntu 10.04), I have a windows computer, but the build instructions for libffi on windows are not very straight forward, but it should work fine in theory
20:31 chromatic Hello!
20:31 cotto_work hello
20:31 Util Hello
20:32 tcurtis Hi.
20:32 bacek aloha
20:32 chromatic How'd we do last week?
20:32 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:33 NotFound Hola
20:33 allison hi
20:33 darbelo Hello.
20:34 chromatic How'd we do last week?
20:34 bacek gc_massacre isn't merged.
20:34 chromatic What's blocking that?
20:34 allison review, for one thing
20:35 bacek tuning. It's _slower_ on long running processes.
20:35 bacek but consume much less memory.
20:35 darbelo bacek: do you have an example benchmark?
20:35 bacek darbelo, "time make" in rakudo
20:36 chromatic Sounds like an algorithmic thing.
20:37 bacek chromatic, gc ms2 triggers GC much more often.
20:37 chromatic Let's look into that on #parrot
20:37 chromatic How did we do removing deprecated items?
20:39 darbelo Nothing big happened there, as far as I've noticed.
20:39 chromatic Is there much left to yank?
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20:41 chromatic Sounds like "We don't know."
20:41 chromatic What's the state of documentation needs?
20:41 cotto_work I have a draft summary deprecation policy up on the wiki.
20:41 cotto_work review would be appreciated before we start calling it binding.
20:41 darbelo We have no easy 'delete the code and commit' deprections. We do have some deprecated behaviours.
20:42 darbelo But we have no clear 'This is what it should do instead.'
20:42 chromatic How important are those?
20:43 bacek I think pretty important.
20:43 darbelo Only, from the text in DEPRECATED.pod, I have no way of knowing.
20:43 chromatic Let's make that a priority.  Can someone take them to the list, or is there a better way to discuss them?
20:43 cotto_work +1 to the list
20:44 bacek May be we need some kind op policy. Like "develop new code to replace deprecated feature in branch; document changes on wiki; merge after HLLs review/approval"
20:44 bacek s/op/of/
20:44 chromatic +1 to more structure
20:45 cotto_work Any volunteers to start a discussion on parrot-dev?
20:46 * dukeleto says 'ello, sorry I'm late
20:47 dukeleto cotto_work: start a discussion of exactly what?
20:47 cotto_work the points raised by darbelo
20:50 cotto_work I guess I'll take those then.
20:50 chromatic Is anyone looking into documentation bugs for 2.6?
20:51 dukeleto What I did:
20:51 dukeleto * Got PL/Perl 6 on PL/Parrot working for simple things
20:51 dukeleto Example: http://github.com/leto/plparrot/commit/6​e636809ee3c04d387733598bd7f762fce382024
20:51 dukeleto * Created TT #1697 to deprecate open/close opcodes, eligible in 2.7
20:51 dukeleto http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1697
20:51 dukeleto What I will do:
20:51 dukeleto * Work more on PL/Perl 6 so that it works nicely with Rakudo*
20:51 dukeleto Blockers:
20:51 dukeleto * Time and stuff
20:51 dukeleto .EOR
20:51 darbelo chromatic: kid51 had a branch for adding function docs. He's been threatening to merge it too.
20:52 chromatic I skimmed it.  It was a clear improvement.
20:52 mikehh he said he was going to merge today
20:52 mikehh it clears up t/cod
20:52 chromatic How about user-level documentation?
20:53 dukeleto chromatic: we really need updated Squak/PCT docs for new users
20:53 mikehh sorry it clears up outstanding C function docs
20:53 * tcurtis can work on improving PAST docs.
20:53 Coke we also need to make sure the docs we have are actually getting published. 'make html' seems subtly broken.
20:54 Coke (I'm working on cleaning up the technical bits so others can concentrate on writing actual docs.)
20:54 mikehh Coke: thought you were working on that, need help?
20:55 chromatic You're both heroes.
20:56 chromatic Let's move on to this week's plans.
20:56 chromatic I have a couple of suggestions, mostly related to Rakudo performance.
20:56 Coke mikehh: I'm currently stuck on trying to figure out exactly how the current version is supposed to work so I can steal it. should be unstuck tomorrow.
20:57 mikehh Coke: one of the problems I had was that book/ uses different POD
20:58 mikehh Coke: seems to need PseudoPod
20:58 Coke if anyone has a problem with the current docs generation that isn't content-related, please make sure there's a ticket.
20:58 chromatic I know how that works; we can talk about it on #parrot
20:59 chromatic Suggestions for this week: dynops loading fixes, documentation, performance improvements.
21:00 Coke +1
21:00 cotto_work I'm afk for a meeting.  If #ps is still happening when I get back, I'll post my questions then.
21:00 chromatic Anyone else have questions?
21:01 chromatic Let's take on cotto's then.
21:01 NotFound TT #1694
21:01 chromatic Is there someone who'd be willing to take on writing the docs for GPG-signed releases?
21:02 dukeleto chromatic: i am very interested in that, but would like some help, since I am swimming upside-down in things to do
21:02 dukeleto chromatic: where would the docs for that go?
21:03 chromatic Probably in the release manager guide.
21:03 tcurtis q1q
21:03 dukeleto chromatic: i am willing to send an email to parrot-dev about it and make a TT (if there isn't one already)
21:03 chromatic Thanks!
21:03 chromatic tcurtis, go ahead.
21:03 Coke (pgp) - write it on the wiki first, solicit feedback before putting in the guide.
21:04 dukeleto chromatic: i think we need sha sums as well as GPG-signed releases, just for clarity
21:04 chromatic Agreed.
21:04 tcurtis Is TT #1690 intended behavior or a bug? http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1690
21:05 chromatic Looks like a bug to me.
21:05 NotFound tcurtis: to me is clearly a bug.
21:06 NotFound The question is: how many things depend on the wrong behaviour?
21:06 pmichaud very little, actually
21:06 pmichaud at least, very little in my experience.
21:06 pmichaud generally most people are surprised by the behavior.
21:06 chromatic I can't imagine anything thinking that's correct.
21:06 pmichaud it's been that way, like, forever.
21:07 NotFound Not intentionally, but I do care for unintentional usages.
21:07 pmichaud a multimethod defined in a subclass hides any same-named definitions in a superclass
21:07 pmichaud (that's what happens now, not necessarily what should happen)
21:07 NotFound There are lost of load_bytecode .... .pir, in examples and libs.
21:07 NotFound s/lost/lots
21:08 allison it's a necessary side effect of the current implementation of multimethods
21:08 allison (where a multimethod is a single entity that holds an array of methods)
21:08 allison changing it requires replumbing multimethod dispatch
21:09 NotFound Uh, sorry, I mixed things.
21:10 chromatic Thoughts on a quick fix for the MMD thing?
21:11 allison rip out support for mmd in core parrot?
21:11 NotFound C++ uses a 'using' clause to solve that same problem.
21:11 allison leave it to the languages that actually use it?
21:12 chromatic I hope that's tongue in cheek.
21:13 pmichaud PCT uses MMD heavily.  :)
21:14 chromatic Sounds like hopes of a quick fix are small.
21:14 allison yah, I'm only half-serious
21:14 chromatic allison and I talked about redoing MMD in the near future anyway.
21:14 allison but it is damnably slow
21:15 allison yes, what we have isn't true mmd
21:15 pmichaud I think when jnthn re-wrote mmd in rakudo, it ended up being almost as fast (if not faster) than non-mmd dispatch.
21:16 allison we should look closely at that implementation as we look at revamping parrot's
21:16 pmichaud I know we were pleased that rakudo's mmd was faster than parrot's mmd.
21:16 chromatic Anything else on this topic for #ps?
21:17 bacek PaFo organisation on github
21:17 bacek http://github.com/blog/674​-introducing-organizations
21:17 dukeleto does anybody know who the "parrot" github account is?
21:17 allison bacek: good idea
21:18 pmichaud dukeleto: I do, I do!
21:18 bacek pmichaud, speak! :)
21:18 pmichaud istr squatting the account last year so it wouldn't get taken by a hostile entity :)
21:19 bacek pmichaud, then convert it to organization :)
21:20 dukeleto pmichaud: thanks :)
21:20 sorear mikehh: PseudoPod and POD6 are very closely related.  If you're just browsing you may have luck with App::grok
21:20 dukeleto pmichaud: i would like to put the parrot github mirror on that instead of my personal github account, we can talk more about that in #parrot or parrot-dev
21:21 chromatic Anything else for #ps today?
21:22 bacek cotto's question about using github as "primary" git repo.
21:22 chromatic ~0 from me
21:22 bacek +0.5 from me
21:23 chromatic I'd hate to migrate Trac, what a pain.
21:23 chromatic I'm not a fan of relying on a company rather than a university for hosting.
21:23 chromatic I like the fork queue though.
21:23 tcurtis chromatic: according to cotto, there's a github plugin for trac, so we could continue using trac.
21:24 chromatic Hence the ~0.
21:24 mikehh it would still require migration
21:27 chromatic Any other comments, or shall we table it?
21:28 bacek http://github.com/davglass/github-trac looks promising
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21:29 mikehh just bear in mind we have a major release coming up next
21:29 chromatic Yeah, it's polish time.
21:30 mikehh and feedback on any Rakudo* requirements
21:31 chromatic Agreed.  Let's call it a week.
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