Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-07-06

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
03:29 contingencyplan joined #parrotsketch
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07:30 tcurtis joined #parrotsketch
11:24 contingencyplan joined #parrotsketch
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19:31 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
19:32 chromatic I worked on the new STRING API for Rakudo, but it's no performance improvement as far as I can see.
19:32 chromatic I will... do not much, as I am moving offices this week.
19:34 wknight8111_ joined #parrotsketch
19:42 Chandon joined #parrotsketch
19:59 tcurtis What I did:
19:59 tcurtis * Implemented min_depth and descend_until options for Tree::Pattern.transform.
19:59 tcurtis - Wrote tests and docs for this.
19:59 tcurtis * Updated some of the docs for my GSoC project.
19:59 tcurtis * Worked on more constant folding for PIRATE.
20:00 tcurtis * Blog post:
20:00 tcurtis - http://parrot.org/content/seven-da​ys-pirate-and-treepattern-hacking
20:00 tcurtis * Fixed some bugs in Tree::Pattern.
20:00 tcurtis * Wrote a tail-call elimination optimization for the simple case where there's a "return" statement.
20:00 tcurtis - Doesn't work because Tree::Transformer doesn't yet traverse attributes, so my top priority is to add traversal of some attributes.
20:00 tcurtis - I would prefer to not add traversal of all attributes because that would require some cycle-detection logic that would complicate things a bit and require modifying the API.
20:00 tcurtis What I will do:
20:00 tcurtis * Implement traversal of at least some attributes.
20:00 tcurtis * Get the tail-call optimization working.
20:00 tcurtis * Continue to work on optimizations for PIRATE.
20:00 tcurtis * Continue to work on docs.
20:00 tcurtis * Possibly make Tree::Transformer no longer derive from Tree::Walker.
20:00 tcurtis - It defines its own versions of the Tree::Walker multi-subs anyway.
20:00 tcurtis * Other refactoring.
20:00 tcurtis * Improve tests.
20:00 tcurtis * Another blog post.
20:00 tcurtis eor.
20:00 tcurtis q1q
20:01 NotFound What I did:
20:01 NotFound -parrot
20:01 NotFound * Deprecated is_tty methods in favour of isatty
20:01 NotFound * Added function Parrot_dlsym_str
20:01 NotFound * Some more PMC tests
20:01 NotFound -winxed
20:01 NotFound * Heredocs
20:01 NotFound * Simplify sub params handling
20:01 NotFound * More tailcall optimization
20:01 NotFound * Evaluate some predefs at compile time when arguments are const
20:01 NotFound * Some fixes and improvements in example Mysql
20:01 NotFound * Minor fixes and cleaning
20:01 NotFound What I will do:
20:01 NotFound No plan
20:01 NotFound EOR
20:01 particle reminder: next week is mid-terms for gsoc. students and mentors, get your reports in
20:13 plobsing_work joined #parrotsketch
20:14 plobsing_work What I Did:
20:14 plobsing_work * minor fixes on dynop_mapping
20:14 plobsing_work What I Plan:
20:14 plobsing_work * get testing on dynop_mapping (more platforms, HLLs)
20:14 plobsing_work * create PackfileBytecode pmc (PackfileRawSegment no longer valid for bytecode segments)
20:14 plobsing_work * use PackfileBytecode pmc to fix make_hello_pbc.pir example
20:14 plobsing_work Blockers:
20:15 plobsing_work * life
20:15 plobsing_work EOR
20:16 darbelo joined #parrotsketch
20:20 cotto_work .#did:
20:20 cotto_work - not much (4th of July FTW)
20:20 cotto_work #will do:
20:20 cotto_work - finish linear scan register allocator in PIRATE
20:20 cotto_work - deprecation policy work
20:20 cotto_work - lots of other random stuff
20:20 cotto_work #eor
20:20 Chandon Done:
20:20 Chandon -gsoc_threads
20:20 Chandon * Got alarms and timers working.
20:20 Chandon * Implemented version of pre-emptive green thread scheduling that is both wrong *and* broken.
20:20 Chandon Will do:
20:20 Chandon END
20:21 ash_ What I Did:
20:21 ash_ * Started wider testing of NCI updates
20:21 ash_ * Found and fixed a pointer related bug in my NCI changes
20:21 ash_ What I Plan:
20:21 ash_ * Start work on a proof of concept llvm-ir run core by doing some basic translation of bytecode to llvm-ir
20:21 ash_ Blockers:
20:21 ash_ * Understanding parrot bytecode
20:21 ash_ END
20:22 eternaleye_ joined #parrotsketch
20:22 khairul did:
20:22 khairul .finished up instrumenting gc.
20:22 khairul .added tests for EventDispatcher.
20:22 khairul .added tests for InstrumentGC.
20:22 khairul .initial cut of InstrumentVtable.
20:22 khairul .blog post @ http://parrot.mangkok.com/?p=122
20:22 khairul will do:
20:22 khairul .finish up InstrumentVtable.
20:22 khairul .add support for methods.
20:22 khairul .start on usage documentation.
20:22 khairul eor
20:23 bubaflub joined #parrotsketch
20:24 darbelo DONE
20:24 darbelo -   Freeze/thaw support.
20:24 darbelo -   Added some documentation.
20:24 darbelo -   Hated the packfile code.
20:24 darbelo TODO
20:24 darbelo -   Get the transcoding issues sorted out.
20:24 darbelo -   Add tests.
20:24 darbelo EOR.
20:27 Util ## Done:
20:27 Util * Nothing material
20:27 Util # Plan to do:
20:27 Util * Perl6book examples
20:27 Util * Fix Win32 Rakudo problems
20:27 Util # Blockers:
20:27 Util * $WORK
20:27 Util * Roof.new
20:27 Util .end
20:30 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:32 allison - Reviewed chromatic's security plans for Lorito.
20:32 allison - Discussed Lorito and future parrot plans with chromatic.
20:32 allison - Drafted 20 ops for lowest level of Lorito.
20:32 allison EOR
20:32 allison chromatic won't make it today (wedding preparations)
20:32 allison who's here today?
20:33 cotto_work hi
20:33 darbelo o/
20:33 tcurtis Hi.
20:33 Chandon Hi
20:33 Util Hi
20:34 allison let's get started
20:34 allison how did we do on weekly priorities?
20:35 allison how is gc_massacre doing?
20:36 * Coke ~~
20:37 allison how about deprecations?
20:37 allison ticket closing?
20:38 Coke I would like to go through DEPRECATED.pod this week for the next (supported) release in 2weeks and figure out which experimental stuff is getting promoted.
20:38 Coke don't need to do it now. Will probaly send out a separate email for each one to track any feedback.
20:38 NotFound BTW closing some tickets depends on experimental things.
20:39 allison then for next week, I suggest a weekly priority of "review experimental features for promotion or removal"
20:39 Coke (though there is a lot of them, may just encourage comments on tickets instead.)
20:41 allison are there any other items we'd like to have as weekly priorities for next week?
20:41 Coke I need to fix 'make html'
20:41 Coke anyone wants to pitch in, great, ping me.
20:42 tcurtis Documentation for users of Parrot perhaps?
20:42 tcurtis Or just docs in general.
20:42 allison ah, yeah, I saw your post to pod-people (I'm assuming that's related), need to reply
20:42 Coke tcurtis: yes.
20:42 allison I'll add 'make html' to weekly priorities
20:42 Coke I think we're pretty much at the cutoff for anything major going in.
20:43 allison yes, very true
20:43 Coke (only 2 weeks left to get things tested before a supported release.)
20:43 Coke I'll send out an email to the list tonight.
20:44 wknight8111_ agreed
20:44 Util Coke, is there a ticket or wiki page you are using for your `make html` bugs?
20:44 Coke Util: no, because I'm the only one working on it. =-)
20:44 Coke (there are tickets that are driving it, but I'm in the middle of rewriting the mechanism entirely)
20:45 Util ok, thanks
20:45 Coke if folks are interested, I can spend time divvying up tasks.
20:45 Coke otherwise it's not a good use of my time.
20:47 allison it's easy enough for you to give someone who asks a task without spending time writing up a task list
20:47 allison (which is to say, if anyone wants to help Coke, just talk to him)
20:48 Coke ;)
20:48 allison how about questions?
20:48 Coke please, lots of testing in anticipation of release. now's a great time to setup a smoke server if youhaven't already.
20:48 allison q1c
20:48 Coke (client, I mean.)
20:48 allison good point
20:49 allison on as many platforms as possible
20:49 tcurtis q1q
20:49 allison tcurtis: go ahead
20:52 allison tcurtis: what's your question?
20:52 allison (or any other questions?)
20:52 tcurtis bacek has asked chromatic and myself about merging my branch into trunk soon for pirate. Alternately, he also suggested moving it to a separate repo and using it as an external project(like we do with NQP, if I understand what he means correctly). Can I do that? If we merge it before 2.6, I would like it marked experimental, though, since there are still some API changes that might be necessary.
20:53 allison When you say "can I do that?" do you mean move it to an external repo?
20:53 allison talk a little more about pirate and how it integrates with current Parrot
20:53 allison is it pretty independent?
20:54 allison and, how fast is it changing?
20:54 allison and how much does it depend on a particular release of Parrot?
20:54 tcurtis "Can I do that?" was referring to either merge it into to trunk or move it to an external repository.
20:54 Coke I don't mind if we add something experimental and mostly unused-currently to trunk, but : see also pirc.
20:54 allison yes, you can certainly do one or the other
20:54 wknight8111_ +1
20:55 allison (i.e. will people always have to update pirate when they update to a new version of Parrot?)
20:55 tcurtis My question was asking about merging my GSoC branch, not PIRATE.
20:55 wknight8111_ (I would prefer mergeback to an extern repo)
20:56 allison merging your branch so pirate can use it?
20:56 allison not merging a branch that contains pirate?
20:56 cotto_work PIRATE as Parrot's primary PIR compiler is still a ways off.
20:56 tcurtis allison: Right.
20:57 allison tcurtis: then review my questions, substituting "your branch" for "pirate"
20:57 allison it's the same basic problem
20:58 tcurtis It is pretty independent of Parrot. It doesn't depend particularly much on particular versions of Parrot, although changes to PCT might necessitate changes in it.
20:59 cotto_work We can ask bacek to post his long-term plans to parrot-dev.
20:59 tcurtis It still changes frequently, but less so than earlier on, and most of these are now bugfixes.
21:00 allison sounds like it's changing fast enough that the parrot deprecation policy wouldn't be appropriate
21:00 allison (hence the desire for labeling it "experimental")
21:00 * cotto_work goes afk
21:01 allison would it be easy to install as a module?
21:01 wknight8111_ the optimizers are an optional tool that people using NQP-based compilers can easily make use of if they opt in
21:01 Coke I don't know that /anything/ is currently easy to install as a module, izzit?
21:01 wknight8111_ plumage is back up and running again, I think. But I don't think many people use it
21:02 NotFound plumage is working well right now.
21:02 wknight8111_ (as obvious from nobody noticing when plumage broke horribly)
21:02 tcurtis It would probably be easy to install as a module, yes.
21:02 japhb <rez>SIGH ...</rez>
21:03 NotFound wknight8111_: too much things were horribly broken to have time to worry about plumage.
21:03 allison okay, then the last and most important question is: which would you prefer?
21:03 particle i don't think we should a gsoc branch into a supported release halfway through the gsoc program
21:03 wknight8111_ NotFound: true
21:03 particle i'm not certain it's had enough eyes
21:04 tcurtis particle: I'd agree with that.
21:04 Coke bacek is the only one that's asking for this.
21:04 particle let's target pre-2.9 for potential gsoc branch merges
21:04 Coke I'll add this to the list of release issues and let him champion it if he wants.
21:04 allison particle: definitely after 2.6 if it merged
21:04 wknight8111_ particle: it's hit a stable point, and it's being used (at least experimentally) by several projects already
21:04 particle aye, i meant post-2.6. silly me
21:05 allison tcurtis: I'd lean toward external module, really, it gives you the most flexibility
21:05 Coke I gotta run. Any concerns about the release this month, you know where to find me.
21:06 allison we can talk about it more in #parrot or on the mailing list
21:06 tcurtis allison: I would like that better, as well.
21:06 wknight8111_ I would like to see tcurtis' work available immediately. If we can't merge it back to trunk for whatever reason I think it should be made available as an external module (and then I suggest we include it in ext/ for the 2.6 release)
21:07 allison other questions?
21:09 allison then food for thought for the week:
21:09 allison In my report I mentioned talking with chromatic about "Lorito and future Parrot". We started talking about refactor plans for Lorito, OO, MMD, GC, etc. and I had a) a sinking feeling thinking about another 3 years of refactors, and b) a realization that they're really all just one refactor, Lorito.
21:10 allison so, rather than starting a host of refactors for 3.0, I'm suggesting that we focus on Lorito, and build the lessons we've learned into it from the start.
21:10 wknight8111_ no
21:10 wknight8111_ (I think my client has a lot of delay. That "no" was in response to "other questions?")
21:10 allison wknight: elaborate as you have time, I'll keep typing too
21:10 allison ah, right
21:11 allison The most painful parts of the past 3 years of refactors, and also the most horrible code left in Parrot is at the junctions between old and new.
21:11 allison where we can't rip out X because Y depends on it, and the chain of dependencies is too great
21:12 allison So we treat Lorito like another system refactor, where both can coexist for a while, and then we eventually drop the old.
21:13 allison But, instead of a partial subsystem refactor, it's a main.c refactor.
21:13 allison i.e. a wholesale replacement for the parrot executible
21:13 allison starting with a tiny prototype executable with 20 opcodes
21:13 allison something we can develop quickly, and start experimenting with
21:14 allison I started drafting that list of 20 opcodes, I'll send it to the list today.
21:14 wknight8111_ It may be worthwhile to get back to defining exactly what Lorito is then. I was under the impression it was basically a microcode layer. If you're suggesting it will encompass changes to GC, OO, and MMD, etc, maybe it's more than that
21:15 allison Lorito is whatever we make it. But yes, what we're talking about here is a total replacement.
21:15 tcurtis wknight8111_: I think the plan is to be able to rewrite at least some of what's currently in the core of Parrot in C in the microcode layer.
21:16 allison yes, the Lorito plans already had ops and PMCs moving to being written in the microcode layer
21:16 allison which is, effectively, the whole interpreter
21:18 allison Think about it for a week, save up your thoughts and well talk about them more.
21:18 allison Particularly in the next virtual developer summit.
21:20 allison any more thoughts, comments, questions before we wrap up for the week?
21:23 allison Call it a week then. Thanks everybody!
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