Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-08-31

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Time Nick Message
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16:44 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
16:44 whiteknight * Some debugging of the gsoc_threads branch with Clang. With that compiler there is a segfault during the build which looks GC-related. Haven't figured it out yet.
16:44 whiteknight * Some tweaks on PLA. Nothing major. Preparing for a real "release" of it soon.
16:44 whiteknight * Voting in the elections. Smash++
16:44 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
16:44 whiteknight * Try to tie off a PLA release soon
16:44 whiteknight * Get back into Parrot core. All the bugfixing, optimizing, and memory leak plugging is inspirational
16:44 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
16:45 whiteknight * Time
16:48 kid51 left #parrotsketch
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16:49 kid51 kid51's report
16:49 kid51 * Surveyed my own list of open TTs, worked on them, some are scheduled for closing, some got closed
16:50 kid51 * Surveyed list of TTs I opened (including those that were transfers from old RT system) but which were either unassigned or assigned to others
16:50 kid51 * Posed questions in tickets as to whether they are closable, etc.
16:51 kid51 * Ran 'make full_test' on gsoc_threads branch yesterday; fixed some codingstd errors, but more fundamental errors remain
16:52 kid51 * Merged a branch that repositioned programs formerly in tools/util/ (which is now gone) or tools/build/ (now limited to those invoked by 'make all'); created tools/release/
16:53 kid51 * EOR for now
17:15 Coke various ticket wrangling on rakudo but mainly parrot, very little coding. sad coke is sad. end of line.
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19:29 particle * cleaned up a bunch of comment spam on parrot.org
19:30 particle * assisted smash with parrot foundation annual meeting / board of directors election
19:30 particle EOR
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19:45 cotto_work #done:
19:45 cotto_work - good progress on the github plugin
19:45 cotto_work - made code more efficient (one db call per link)
19:46 cotto_work - can import from git log output
19:46 cotto_work - make github post-commit hooks dtrt
19:46 cotto_work - should have an example trac site up by tonight
19:46 cotto_work - code is on http://github.com/cotto/github-trac and feedback (or help) is welcome
19:46 cotto_work - closed a bunch of tickets, mostly other people's (but a few of my own too)
19:46 cotto_work #hope to:
19:46 cotto_work - set up example trac site, get feedback, propose a schedule for the git migration
19:46 cotto_work #eor
19:58 smash joined #parrotsketch
20:00 NotFound What I did (last two weeks):
20:00 NotFound -parrot
20:00 NotFound * Fixed problem with imcc HLL in load_bytecode difference between loading
20:00 NotFound a pbc and compiling a pir.
20:00 NotFound * Some other minor fixes and ticket closing.
20:00 NotFound * Added experimental function Parrot_getpid and getpid method.
20:00 NotFound * Implemented Exception clone vtable function.
20:00 NotFound * Added a bunch of core pmc tests.
20:00 NotFound -winxed
20:00 NotFound * Initial support for namespace modifiers, including HLLs.
20:00 NotFound * Fixed a problem with escapes in string literals.
20:00 NotFound * new keyed.
20:00 NotFound * Added a make install target and other changes, finally being ready for
20:00 NotFound plumage install without requiring a C++ compiler.
20:00 NotFound What I will do:
20:00 NotFound No plan, still short of time
20:00 NotFound EOR
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20:04 nwellnhof What I did
20:05 nwellnhof - Fixed some bugs, closed some tickets
20:05 nwellnhof - Worked on my proposed string charset/encoding changes
20:05 nwellnhof Plans
20:05 nwellnhof - Create a branch with my string charset/encoding changes
20:06 nwellnhof EOR
20:06 nwellnhof left #parrotsketch
20:06 tcurtis I did: little... I will: upload code tarball to Google Code for GSoC and work on Squaak some. EOR.
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20:13 Util # Done:
20:13 Util * Spoke for a full 90 minutes at Atlanta.pm on Rakudo Star
20:13 Util = lots of Q&A, and the first 50 slides of pmichaud's "Cool Perl 6" YAPC talk.
20:13 Util - Mostly very well received, but some MEGO overload.
20:13 Util * Voted for Parrot Board members
20:13 Util # Plan to do:
20:13 Util * Work to close the neglected tickets that I own.
20:13 Util # Blockers:
20:13 Util * $WORK
20:14 Util .end
20:15 kid51 MEGO?
20:16 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
20:16 chromatic I fixed a few bugs, plugged some leaks, and ran some profiling.
20:17 chromatic I did some spiking of Lorito data structures for INSP and have some ideas there.
20:17 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:17 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:17 mikehh * some fixes
20:17 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:17 mikehh * work on html_cleanup branch
20:17 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:17 mikehh .eor
20:17 Util kid51: http://catb.org/jargon/html/M/MEGO.html
20:18 dukeleto joined #parrotsketch
20:19 Util kid51: "my eyes glaze over"; too much change at once. "line-noise" comment from a very experienced Perl speaker, for example.
20:22 kid51 Util: thx
20:23 Paul_the_Greek joined #parrotsketch
20:23 Paul_the_Greek Afternoon, all.
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20:29 cotto_work hio
20:30 Util Hello
20:30 NotFound Hola
20:31 chromatic Hello everyone.
20:31 chromatic Any missing reports?
20:31 Paul_the_Greek Greetings.
20:31 tcurtis Hi.
20:31 Coke ~~
20:32 chromatic How'd we do on last week's goals?  Let's start with tickets closed.
20:32 cotto_work very well
20:33 Paul_the_Greek Did we close 35 tickets?
20:33 dukeleto hola
20:33 mikehh excellent!
20:33 cotto_work something close to that.
20:33 cotto_work probably +/- 2
20:33 * dukeleto doesn't have much to report, but is in attendance
20:33 chromatic We have 645 active tickets now.
20:33 chromatic Any chance of getting that to 600 for the release?
20:34 Coke 37, looks like.
20:34 Paul_the_Greek When is the release?
20:34 chromatic Three weeks
20:34 Paul_the_Greek Absolutely.
20:34 Coke that's ~ 15 a week, seems simple.
20:34 chromatic Goal: close 25 tickets this week?
20:34 Coke +1
20:34 cotto_work wfm
20:34 chromatic Objections?
20:34 Paul_the_Greek +1
20:35 mikehh wfm
20:35 Util +1
20:35 kid51 Is that a total goal or a net goal?
20:35 kid51 i.e., how do we count tickets opened/closed within same week
20:35 mikehh closed
20:35 tcurtis +1
20:35 mikehh new tickets are separate
20:36 cotto_work We don't want to discourage new tickets.
20:36 chromatic We just want to close them.
20:36 chromatic Other goals for last week?
20:36 kid51 And do we have a query that counts tickets closed between 2 points in time 7*24 hours apart?
20:37 Coke kid51: yes.
20:37 Coke http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/timeline
20:37 Coke add parameters to suit.
20:38 kid51 thx
20:39 chromatic Other goals for last week?
20:39 nwellnhof merging branches?
20:39 Paul_the_Greek Branches?
20:39 mikehh try and get html_Cleanup sorted
20:40 dukeleto i saw the tools branch get merged
20:40 chromatic gc_massacre still blocks on bacek's time
20:40 nwellnhof it would be nice to get gc_massacre merged as soon as possible
20:41 mikehh html_cleanup generates pages ok - just need to sort out index page and indexing
20:41 chromatic Any of those feasible to merge this week?
20:41 mikehh index pages
20:41 cotto_work Can't it be merged and the new gc made non-default?
20:42 chromatic I ran into nqp-rx problems last time I tested it.
20:42 dukeleto http://github.com/parrot/parrot/branches <-- very useful list of Parrot branches with buttons to do colored diffs between branches
20:43 mikehh I'll work on html_cleanup, but probably need some help
20:43 Coke mikehh: sure. I don't want to drive, but can shout directions from the backseat.
20:44 Paul_the_Greek You know you'll get opinions from me, mikehh. :D
20:44 mikehh Coke: I'll bring it up to date with trunk later
20:44 chromatic Other branches we can merge?
20:45 cotto_work I'll check with khairul about nuking gsoc_instrument.  His code has moved to github.
20:46 chromatic What's the status of the other GSoC branches?
20:46 chromatic Any ETAs on merging those?
20:47 kid51 As reported above, gsoc_threads needs further work.
20:48 dukeleto these braches haven't been touched in rougly a year: pmc_i_ops, pmc_pct, detec_llvm
20:48 dukeleto should they still be kept?
20:48 chromatic Is there a volunteer to look into that?
20:48 kid51 detect_llvm will be useful if and when we decide to support LLVM
20:49 kid51 IIRC, it's basically just another configuration step
20:49 cotto_work I'll look into pmc_pct.
20:49 * dukeleto really can't type today
20:49 kid51 So, in principal, it could be merged in now ... but it wouldn't add any value.
20:49 kid51 (but one less branch to move to git)
20:49 dukeleto kid51: it is already in git :)
20:49 chromatic Is tcurtis the right person to look at it for accuracy?
20:50 kid51 Of all those branches, which would have the biggest positive impact on Parrot's speed/memory performance?
20:50 kid51 accuracy ... of detect_llvm branch?
20:50 chromatic Yes, the accuracy of detect_llvm.
20:51 tcurtis I don't see why I would be.
20:51 kid51 I think almost anyone could do code review ... I wrote that branch long before tcurtis came around
20:51 tcurtis I can try, though.
20:51 kid51 IIRC, it simply asks:  Do you have LLVM installed?
20:51 chromatic If it's still useful, I say merge it.
20:52 kid51 tcurtis: we can discuss further in #parrot later
20:53 chromatic Let's move on.
20:53 chromatic Any blockers for anyone we can deal with this week?
20:54 Paul_the_Greek I have a question about a gc_ms bug, if this is the time.
20:54 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:55 chromatic Sure, go ahead.
20:56 Paul_the_Greek There is an alignment bug in gc_ms (actually, two). Should I fix it, or assume that gc_ms will be supplanted by gc_ms2?
20:56 mikehh fix it
20:56 Paul_the_Greek The bug appears to be fixed in gc_ms2.
20:57 chromatic Is there harm in fixing it now?
20:57 mikehh are we using gc_ms
20:57 Paul_the_Greek Should be no harm. Both bugs are obscure and so don't happen with our current users.
20:57 nwellnhof i'm still not convinced we have an alignment problem
20:57 chromatic If there's no harm and if you're interested in doing the work, go ahead.
20:57 Paul_the_Greek Okay, I will.
20:58 Paul_the_Greek I had ideas for speeding up gc_ms, but that's probably not worth it.
20:59 Paul_the_Greek Will gc_ms2 be the new default GC?
20:59 chromatic Hopefully.
20:59 Paul_the_Greek nwellnhof: I think we do, but I will check by creating a custom PMC that demonstrates the problem.
21:00 nwellnhof paul: yes with a custom PMC we might have a problem
21:00 chromatic Other goals for next week?
21:00 Paul_the_Greek Oh, agreed, none of the standard PMCs have the problem.
21:00 nwellnhof but not with any of our current PMCs
21:00 nwellnhof so just add an assertion
21:01 particle hello, all.
21:01 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
21:01 particle are we ready to adjourn our regularly-scheduled meeting for the annual members meeting of the parrot foundation?
21:02 Paul_the_Greek I have one more question.
21:02 dukeleto particle: yes, just one quick announcement
21:02 chromatic I haven't yet suggested my weekly goal.
21:02 particle ok, let's hold off on the members meeting for 10 minutes.
21:02 particle continue.
21:02 chromatic Paul_the_Greek?
21:02 tcurtis I also have a question I'd like to ask.
21:02 Paul_the_Greek chromatic suggested I look at Boolean to see if it would benefit from not inheriting from Integer.
21:03 dukeleto GSoC students should upload their code before Sep 10th, instructions: http://groups.google.com/group/google-summer-of-code-students-list/web/code-submission-guidelines-2010
21:03 Paul_the_Greek So, how do I know which operations that it inherits from Integer it must continue to support?
21:03 Paul_the_Greek Is boolean modulus a supported feature?
21:04 chromatic Any tests that fail when you make the change are indicators.
21:04 Coke Paul_the_Greek: look at the test file.
21:04 particle ha, i thought coke was going to say 'look at the spec'.
21:04 Paul_the_Greek Okay, so take the test suite as the semantic definition?
21:04 particle in this case, the spec is the test file.
21:05 particle Paul_the_Greek: take it as a rough guide, since we haven't formally specified Boolean PMC behavior
21:05 Coke certainly looking at /our/ spec if we had one would be a good plan.
21:05 Paul_the_Greek Okay, I'll see if we can improve things by inheriting from Scalar instead.
21:06 Paul_the_Greek Or Default?
21:06 particle Paul_the_Greek: use your judgement, and talk to hll authors to see what they might want in a Boolean if necessary
21:06 Coke I have to leave shortly. Is there any business for the annual meeting other than vote counting?
21:06 particle everything inherits from default
21:06 tcurtis Rakudo may currently depend on Boolean being able to support arithmetic, since Rakudo's Bool type is conceptually an integral type.
21:06 particle coke: no
21:06 Paul_the_Greek Right, so we could bypass Scalar, too. I'll take a look.
21:06 Coke I'd avoid scalar if possible.
21:06 tcurtis It might not, though.
21:06 chromatic Check with Tcl, Lua, and Rakudo about their tests after you do so.
21:07 Paul_the_Greek Okay, then Default. I'm not sure we can do much, but it's worth a gander.
21:07 Paul_the_Greek Will do.
21:07 chromatic dukeleto, your announcement?
21:08 mikehh I think it was the gsoc one above
21:08 chromatic Alright, then my recommendation for the week: everyone install Valgrind, pick a handful of test files, and report any memory leaks so we can fix them.
21:09 particle and share information and experiences
21:09 Coke chromatic: there are some open leak tickets as well.
21:09 dukeleto chromatic: have you written down how you use kcachegrind anywhere?
21:10 chromatic Nothing comes to mind immediately.  I can work on that.
21:10 dukeleto chromatic: i finally have it installed on a linux machine and would like to play with it
21:10 dukeleto chromatic++
21:10 chromatic Anything else to discuss before our annual meeting?
21:10 tcurtis Concerning GSoC, what would be the best way to integrate my GSoC project into Parrot? Merge it into Parrot trunk? Or include it in ext/?
21:10 chromatic If it's usable as is, trunk seems useful to me.
21:11 mikehh I would prefer to have it available in trunk
21:12 chromatic Any other opinions?
21:12 whiteknight trunk +1
21:13 dukeleto as long as it doesn't brake anything, trunk sounds good
21:13 tcurtis I'll start working on preparing to merge it into trunk, then.
21:13 Util trunk +1; no idea if /ext is appropriate
21:14 chromatic particle takes over in 3... 2... 1...
21:15 particle welcome to the annual members' meeting of the parrot foundation.
21:15 particle thanks for attending
21:15 particle you can help me keep track of the minutes at http://typewith.me/Bpxjcgs9d0, if you wish
21:16 nwellnhof left #parrotsketch
21:16 particle let's skip theformalities and get on to the meat of it, shall we:
21:17 particle the main thrust of this meeting is to elect the board of directors for the 2010-2011 term
21:17 particle of the six directors serving the 2009-2010 term, only one has chosen to stand for re-election (me).
21:18 particle i want to thank each and every one of the outgoing directors for their efforts to keep parrot foundation going and support its mission.
21:18 particle your valuable contributions to the foundation will be missed.
21:18 particle looking forward, we have four candidates for the 2010-2011 term:
21:19 particle andrew whitworth, jerry gay, jim keenan, and jonathan leto
21:19 particle a number of you voted for a number of the candidates. specifically:
21:20 particle andrew had 14 votes, 12 yes, 1 no, and 1 abstain
21:21 particle jerry had 15 votes, 15 yes
21:21 particle jim had 14 votes, 13 yes, 1 abstain
21:21 particle jonathan had 15 votes, 15 yes
21:22 particle the minimum amount of votes was 14.
21:22 particle we must have at least 10% of the membership vote to constitute a quorum and make the vote binding
21:23 particle smash, what's the current count of parrot foundation members?
21:23 smash particle: 27, let me just double check
21:23 kid51 particle:  What do you mean by "the minimum amount of votes"?
21:24 smash particle: correct, currently we have 27 members
21:24 particle kid51: each board of directors candidate was voted on separately, some received 14 votes, some 15.
21:25 particle ok, then we have a quorum, and the vote is binding.  i'd like to welcome our new directors.
21:25 particle and thank you for re-electing me to the board.
21:25 * dukeleto waves
21:26 * kid51 accepts the hearty huzzahs of the masses
21:27 particle this ends the formal part of the meeting.
21:27 Paul_the_Greek Greetings, new directors!
21:27 dukeleto particle: is there a document that explains what board members have done/should do/guidelines/etc?
21:27 particle now, while we have the membership gathered, and the new directors around, does anyone want to discuss any foundation-related topics?
21:27 mikehh my only concern was continuity - with only particle being a previous member of the board
21:28 particle dukeleto: i'll send out an email to the new and old directors so we can start the transition process.
21:28 smash particle: remmber to update the parrot-directors list
21:28 kid51 I have no foundation-related topics at this time, but will want to know about board meetings, board mailing list, etc.
21:28 smash (i don't have access to that one)
21:28 kid51 ... because I have been thinking about things to discuss with board.
21:28 particle some directors of the parrot foundation legally have to have titles, but we generally spread the work around.
21:29 particle so all directors should be treated equally--any one of us has the same authority within the membership, and the same responsibilities to the membership.
21:30 dukeleto particle: does the parrot foundation currently have any funding for parrot grants, or is that all handled by TPF?
21:30 particle parrot foundation received only minimal contributions this past year.
21:31 NotFound I for one welcome our new parrot overlords
21:31 Util Would all the Parrot Foundation members in the channel please say "here", so we have a list of attendees for the minutes?
21:31 chromatic here
21:31 * Util is here
21:31 mikehh here
21:31 cotto_work here
21:31 smash here
21:31 dukeleto here!
21:31 particle we don't have much money for grants now, but can discuss using some of our reserve to that end
21:31 particle here
21:31 particle coke was here, too
21:31 NotFound here
21:32 whiteknight here
21:32 kid51 here
21:32 Paul_the_Greek Wait, am I a member if I sent a CLA?
21:32 chromatic Yes.
21:32 Paul_the_Greek here
21:33 particle you are a member if you have made two or more contributions, and two existing members have nominated you for membership
21:33 particle Paul_the_Greek: you are a member.
21:33 smash but i don't think you're on the members list
21:33 * tcurtis is not sure whether he is a member, but will declare that he is here just in case.
21:33 Paul_the_Greek Does someone edit me in?
21:34 chromatic Anyone with commit access is automatically a member.
21:34 particle one thing i'd like very much to see this year is the formation of a membership committee
21:35 chromatic Anyone who's had two patches applied in the past year is a member, I believe.
21:35 particle chromatic++
21:35 mikehh nominate tcurtis and Paul_the_Greek if needed
21:35 particle right on both counts
21:35 whiteknight +1 on membership committee
21:35 smash 'Anyone with commit access is automatically a member' this is not true
21:35 smash at least for current members
21:36 Paul_the_Greek Thank you, mikehh.
21:36 particle if there are members and directors who want to start working on the membership committee, now's a good place to make that known.
21:36 smash besides being a member gives you responasbilities, I don't think that you should loosen it that way
21:36 particle now's a good time, here's a good place...
21:36 dukeleto particle: what would the membership committee do?
21:37 smash people need to choose to be a member, that's why there are call for membership applies
21:37 smash s/call/calls/
21:37 particle develop/improve voting processes, interact with the members, formalize the process for becoming a member, etc
21:37 Paul_the_Greek Must excuse myself. Take care, all.
21:37 particle smash: yes, you do need to accept a nomination for membership, that is true
21:37 Paul_the_Greek left #parrotsketch
21:38 particle when the foundation started, all committers at the time were given membership.
21:38 smash particle: but that was to get the engine started i guess
21:38 particle we haven't formally asked every committer added since if they wanted to accept membership
21:38 particle but the foundation has historically treated all committers as members
21:39 particle certainly, the board listens to what they have to say and takes their ideas and concerns seriously.
21:39 smash you're already talking about something else
21:40 smash but i'm ok with either way
21:42 particle we're still a young foundation, with growing pains.
21:42 particle developing clarity around issues regarding our membership is important, thus the call for a membership committee.
21:43 smash i think everything is clear enough in the bylaws
21:43 smash but again, i have no problem here
21:43 particle yes, but we have processes, procedures, and protocols that need implementing to make managing the bylaws easy.
21:44 smash the membership process is well defined
21:44 smash (sorry, i will shut up :-) )
21:45 particle feel free to speak amongst yourselves, this is your time now.
21:45 kid51 http://www.parrot.org/files/bylaws.pdf
21:46 particle if there's nothing further, feel free to sign off and get on with your lives, and thank you for your support of parrot and the parrot foundation.
21:46 mikehh do you have to select titles/positions for the current four board members?
21:47 * kid51 heads home; should be on #parrot later tonight
21:47 kid51 left #parrotsketch
21:47 particle mikehh: the board will select these later, and make an annoucement
21:47 mikehh i.e Chairman, President and (vice), Treasurer and Secretary
21:47 mikehh 'k
21:48 particle this is our first transition, last year all directors stood for re-election
21:48 particle all were re-elected, and we added one more (pmichaud) but he didn't get a title
22:16 japhb left #parrotsketch
23:17 smash left #parrotsketch

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