Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-10-12

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Time Nick Message
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16:52 kid51 kid51's report
16:53 kid51 * Won't be at #parrotsketch today.  Am on vacation, but will be paying a courtesy call on OSU Open Source Lab.
16:53 kid51 * Getting ready for Pacific Northwest Parrot Developers Gathering in Portland this Saturday, Oct 16, 1100-1700 PT.  If you haven't RSVPed, please do so.
16:53 kid51 DONE
16:53 kid51 * Merged in a branch to close TT #1810.
16:53 kid51 * Performed testing for TT #1813.  Provisional results:  The problems we are having with the infnan branch on certain machines cannot be attributed solely to use of g++ rather than gcc.
16:53 kid51 * Some testing re t/tools/mk_language_shell.t with dukeleto.
16:53 kid51 CONCERNS
16:53 kid51 * It's still the case that, without hacking deep inside C source code files, Parrot will no longer build on boxes with smaller resources.  This inhibits testing on such boxes, since every time I go to test a branch I have to perform surgery on src/gc/gc_ms2.c.
16:53 kid51 EOR
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20:18 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:18 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:18 mikehh * some fixes
20:18 mikehh * branch testing and fixing
20:18 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:18 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:18 mikehh .eor
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20:26 Util No Parrot progress last week.
20:26 Util curl -s 'http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/timeline?daysback=7&amp;ticket=on' | perl -wlne '/<em[^>]+\(([^"]+)\)">/ or next; $h{$1}++; END {printf "%7d\t%s\n", $h{$_}, $_ for sort keys %h}'
20:26 Util 2closed: duplicate
20:26 Util (correction)
20:26 Util 2 closed: duplicate
20:26 Util 3 closed: fixed
20:26 Util 9 new
20:26 Util .end
20:29 dukeleto What I did:
20:29 dukeleto * Got Parrot + Rakudo access to the GCC Compile Farm
20:29 dukeleto * Did some optimized darwinppc smoking and found some failing tests TT#1813
20:29 dukeleto * Wrote a bunch of tests for the Socket PMC and found some bugs TT#1820
20:29 dukeleto * Helped fix tests for mk_language_shell.pl
20:29 dukeleto * Researched why String.reverse was removed and helping bluescreen++ put it back TT#1821
20:29 dukeleto (reported by moritz++)
20:29 dukeleto * Added info to the bug in Parrot where PID is 0 on OS X TT#1817
20:29 dukeleto What I will do:
20:29 dukeleto * Contiue testing our networking code so that I can apply the ipv6 patch sitting in our queue
20:29 dukeleto * Help kid51 add a config step to detect if ipv6 is available TT#1824
20:29 dukeleto Blocking on:
20:29 dukeleto * Nice weather.
20:29 dukeleto .EOR
20:30 dukeleto oh yeah, and I should work on that GitMigration thing too.
20:30 dukeleto And I helped in the attempt to merge gsoc_nci to trunk
20:30 cotto #done:
20:30 cotto - finished fixing and cleaning up the profiling runcore (a.k.a. "PCore")
20:30 cotto - Parrot builds and passes all tests with PCore hard-coded to the default
20:30 cotto - same for nqp-rx
20:30 cotto - Rakudo build fine but fails a small number of spectests.  I'll investigate once the spectest run is done within the next few days.
20:30 cotto - added API for adding STRINGs to the gc root set
20:30 cotto #to do:
20:30 cotto - try using the PCore, work on deficiencies I find
20:30 cotto - figure out where the Rakudo spectest failures come from
20:30 cotto - sync with osuosl about the post-migration configuration of trac.parrot.org
20:30 cotto #eor
20:31 allison - Worked on release of other project (Ubuntu).
20:31 allison - There's potential for Parrot to be reviewed as one of the "recommended" technologies for Ubuntu's new lightweight "desktop apps" (like Android Marketplace).
20:31 allison EOR
20:31 chromatic Good $localtime all.
20:31 cotto hello
20:31 dukeleto howdy peeps.
20:31 mikehh hi hi]#
20:31 allison hi
20:31 mikehh oops
20:32 mikehh hello
20:32 chromatic Let's review last week.
20:32 chromatic Ticket closing?  Looks sparse.
20:32 dukeleto I opened many tickets.
20:32 Util dukeleto++ # Compile Farm
20:33 dukeleto q1q when it is that time
20:33 dukeleto I think we closed many of the easy tickets in weeks past.
20:34 chromatic I think we're running out of interested labor this past month.
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20:34 dukeleto We should try to concentrate on tickets of certain subsystems now, if we have a weekly goal of ticket closing.
20:35 chromatic +1, with the caveat we probably need mentoring for certain subsystems (and that's a good thing to do anyway)
20:35 dukeleto chromatic: yes, it will facilitate osmosis of knowledge between parrot hackers
20:35 cotto I'd be up for an excuse to learn pcc more thoroughly.
20:36 chromatic Other comments on the proposal?
20:36 cotto (or most given components)
20:36 dukeleto Perhaps we need a visualization of ticket activity. It could help motivate people.
20:37 cotto You seem to be all about visualizations this week.  +1
20:37 dukeleto Like a simple graph from the data that Util++ adds to #ps
20:37 chromatic I'm not sure what could motivate people other than work.
20:37 chromatic Suggestions for a subsystem this week?
20:38 dukeleto what about the config subsystem? Didn't plobsing create some branches related to it?
20:38 dukeleto but our GC could be more important
20:39 chromatic Fixing GC bugs is non-trivial.
20:39 dukeleto we recently had a GC-related goal, which I think did not have enough focus.
20:39 dukeleto chromatic: indeed.
20:39 cotto Prior attempts to get more people involved in the GC haven't gotten much done.
20:39 mikehh bacek has been working on generational_gc
20:39 mikehh some failing tests etc
20:39 cotto If we want to do that, we should figure out what the barrier is and how to address it.
20:40 dukeleto chromatic: Well, one thing that I think will be easy to get progress on is testing our socket API. We have horrific test coverage for networking code.
20:40 dukeleto i was in the 20%'s for most files or less, and I got Socket PMC up to 30% in the last week
20:41 dukeleto this is related to our ipv6 patch that is sitting in our Trac queue, which has no tests. It would be nice to be able to apply that and know that we didn't break ipv4 sockets
20:41 chromatic We have 19 open build system tickets.
20:41 chromatic 43 open configure tickets.
20:42 bacek joined #parrotsketch
20:42 bacek ~~
20:43 chromatic Can we close 20 configure tickets in the next week?
20:44 dukeleto I am +1 to trying it as a goal
20:44 mikehh we can look at it
20:44 chromatic Let's do it then.
20:44 chromatic Other goals for last week?
20:44 dukeleto even if we only close half that many configure tickets, it will be well worth it.
20:45 dukeleto what were the goals?
20:45 bacek (last week report: gen_gc is almost there. coretest passed modulo RO tests (which are disabled for now))
20:45 chromatic all GC related last week, I think
20:46 dukeleto bacek: what are RO tests?
20:47 mikehh read only - got some failures there
20:47 bacek dukeleto, we have ro_variant_vtable to use when we switch PMC to RO mode.
20:48 dukeleto allison: if you could post more info about your parrot+ubuntu announcement to parrot-dev, that would be awesome
20:49 chromatic Shall we set other goals for this week?
20:49 chromatic 2.9 comes out next week, if I read the calendar correctly.
20:50 allison dukeleto: it's not an announcement, it's just an "entry for candidacy" at this point
20:52 bacek If someone can jump on gen_gc branch it will be helpful. Not worth for weekly goal, but still.
20:52 chromatic What do you need there?
20:53 dukeleto allison: well any information about an entry for candidacy would be useful and interesting to hear about :)
20:53 dukeleto bacek: do you need that branch smoked?
20:53 bacek chromatic, pair of eyes.
20:53 chromatic Any other goals for this week?
20:54 bacek dukeleto, not smoked yet. Just some kind of review of logic.
20:54 dukeleto bacek: i will take a look to try and learn about what is going on there, but I offer no promise of a useful critique.
20:54 bacek dukeleto, deal
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20:55 dukeleto plobsing: we are almost done with goals for the week. Do you have anything to add?
20:56 plobsing dukeleto: I haven't done much parrot-y this week, so likely not
20:57 chromatic Let's move on to blockers.
20:57 chromatic What's blocking us and why?
20:57 dukeleto Not having a configure step to detect ipv6 is blocking me from committing more tests to trunk
20:58 dukeleto We already have a ticket for it: https://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1824
20:59 mikehh probably need a branch
20:59 chromatic Let's make that happen then.
20:59 chromatic Other blockers?
21:01 dukeleto Well, mk_language_shell.pl is blockig the migration to git
21:01 dukeleto so is create_language.pl
21:01 Util how are they blocking?
21:02 dukeleto currently they check to see if parrot is new enough for the HLL to compile by comparing two integer subversion revisions, one from parrot_config and the other stored in the file PARROT_REVISION
21:03 dukeleto there is no linear ever-increasing revision in git
21:03 dukeleto the closest thing is "git describe"
21:04 dukeleto which gives you a symbolic "version" relative to a tag, so it would return something like RELEASE_2_7_0~100gcafe
21:04 dukeleto which means "this parrot is 100 commits after the tag RELEASE_2_7_0, using 'git' and has the sha1 cafe
21:05 dukeleto this is all well and good, but the problem is if we release a parrot x.2.1 after x.3.0 (such as a security release), comparing versions becomes very freaking hard
21:05 dukeleto Please guide me from this dark maze, where all the corridors look exactly the same.
21:06 dukeleto This is related to http://semver.org/
21:07 chromatic Could we compare dates instead?
21:07 Util Shouldn't there be a way to query if a certain commit is in the history tree of the repo that parrot_config is using? If so, the embed the latest in PARROT_REVISION, and check for it.
21:07 cotto a note: we have the same security release problem with our current scheme
21:09 dukeleto chromatic: i like the idea of comparing dates. Actually, the scam I have thought of recently is a date+git-describe string pair. I think that is what can work.
21:09 chromatic Any other blockers to discuss?
21:09 dukeleto Util: HLLs don't currently require for the repo to exist to determine if parrot is new enough
21:09 dukeleto Util: comparing sha1's directly requires a git repo
21:10 dukeleto Util: or we could ship a database of version info with every HLL, but that seems to be a suboptimal solution to me
21:11 Util dukeleto: I see. In that case, simple date comparison is probably good enough for most cases.
21:12 dukeleto Util: yes, simple date comparison is an ~80% solution
21:14 dukeleto are we onto questions now?
21:14 chromatic Let's move to questions.
21:16 dukeleto Util: I agree
21:17 dukeleto How do we best utilize the GCC Compile Farm?
21:18 chromatic Can we submit tasks to it?
21:18 GeJ * Belated report :
21:18 GeJ - Unfortunately did nothing parrot related : $health got in the way and pain management is occupying most of my time.
21:18 GeJ - Things don't look any brighter for the upcoming week as I should go under the knife (date to be confirmed with surgeon)
21:18 GeJ Sorry.
21:18 dukeleto chromatic: in theory, yes. We could setup a buildbot or set up TapTinder or have smokers
21:18 GeJ EOR
21:18 GeJ And good morning.
21:19 dukeleto GeJ: top of the localtime()
21:19 dukeleto chromatic: taptinder doesn't have installation instructions
21:20 dukeleto chromatic: smoke tests aren't integrated to anything else very well (we manually have to check reports)
21:20 dukeleto chromatic: buildbot could be the better solution, maybe not. I've never set it up before
21:20 chromatic Sounds like we need more research then.
21:20 dukeleto One other cool thing is that RTEMS uses the GCC Compile Farm, which means we can setup testing on RTEMS on the compile farm.
21:21 dukeleto and we can test against a range of gcc releases as well as gcc trunk if we want
21:22 chromatic Shall we move to the next question?
21:23 Util wait
21:23 Util Ranked thoughts:
21:23 Util 1. Port to new platforms (PS3, woohoo!)
21:23 Util 2. Smokers on rare platforms (we can smoke common platforms elsewhere)
21:23 Util 3. Smoke across multiple GCC variants and compile flags
21:23 Util 50. Smokers on common platforms
21:23 Util 99. Benchmarking - suboptimal on shared systems
21:23 Util .end
21:24 dukeleto in a related note, "make test" goes into an infinite loop on the PS3 (but core_test passes)
21:24 chromatic I rank in almost the opposite order.
21:25 chromatic dukeleto, can you figure out what we need to do to submit jobs there and get information back?
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21:25 dukeleto I think we should have a dedicated testing $whatever for supported platforms. If we don't continually test on all "supported" platforms, we are just lying.
21:25 dukeleto chromatic: i will ask if we can submit jobs (i think most likely it is yes), but I will check
21:26 dukeleto chromatic: the machines can connect out to the internet, so they could periodically check for new jobs
21:26 dukeleto chromatic: so I think we can assume that we can submit jobs
21:26 chromatic Continual testing of core platforms is a very good idea.
21:27 dukeleto There are a few sparc machines in the compile farm, but almost every machine is running debian. So the compile farm represents many platforms, but not many OS's.
21:27 dukeleto there are also some arm machines, which I am not sure is supported by Parrot currently
21:28 chromatic Optimized and non-optimized builds are useful for testing.
21:29 dukeleto chromatic: yes. We are failing our optimized darwinppc build right now.
21:30 chromatic Any other questions?
21:30 dukeleto In theory we could define N options to parrot, and smoke all kinds of combinations of them, but the important ones need to defined, because the number of possibilities grows combinatorically i.e. exponentially
21:30 dukeleto like ICU, optimized, readline, etc
21:31 dukeleto GMP would be a good thing to test regularly as well, since we have core PMCs that use it
21:31 dukeleto I will create an RFC ticket for the compile farm to gather comments.
21:32 dukeleto q1q
21:32 chromatic go ahead
21:33 dukeleto There is something called Google Code-In coming up, that is like GSoC, but aimed at high school students and younger. It is the re-invention of the Google Highly Open Participation thingy
21:33 dukeleto Do we want to invest resources to be part of it? Anyone interested in volunteering for things related to that?
21:34 dukeleto They will be announcing a call for organizations to apply next week, I think.
21:35 mikehh do we have the sort of tasks that would work there?
21:36 dukeleto mikehh: Tyler Curtis is 18 yrs old and did a magnificient job in his GSoC project, so I think the answer is yes
21:37 cotto Sure.  Even for someone just getting into open source, we could always use more docs.
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: and Google Code-In in more open than GSoC, so students can translate or add documentation, or work on graphics and things like that
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: it isn't only code
21:37 mikehh I got the impression that it was more of a group participation thing
21:37 dukeleto GSoC doesn't allow docs-only projects, Code-In does
21:37 dukeleto mikehh: Code-In is supposed to be individual only, just like GSoC
21:38 dukeleto students are given "tasks" which are smaller than GSoC proposals
21:38 mikehh I think HLL development might work there
21:38 dukeleto and then the Goog pays students some small amount per task, up to $500 or so
21:38 dukeleto it is mostly geared towards younger students getting introduced to open source, and not so much as being a summer stipend
21:39 dukeleto I think Parrot should be involved, but I don't know how much time I can put towards it. I will need help if Parrot is going to do it properly.
21:40 cotto What kind of help would you need?
21:40 dukeleto so if a few people are willing to come up with small tasks for newcomers to accomplish, that would be awesome.
21:40 dukeleto if we are accepted as an org, we will can create a bunch of tasks that we would find useful but will also teach someone new about open source
21:41 dukeleto i am not sure if students are supposed to come up with their own "tasks" or not, but we can defintely suggest them
21:41 dukeleto and if we can say "Parrot has X tasks to choose from" we will get more people than "Figure out a task for yourself to work with Parrot"
21:41 mikehh I will certainly give it some thought, not sure if I have any tuits in that area
21:42 Util Tasks for newcomers should be tickets tagged with keyword: newbie; they will appear on report {19} in trac.
21:42 dukeleto Util++ doing stuff
21:43 Util cotto++ # original idea
21:44 cotto I'd originally intended newbie tickets as something that'd take a newbie a relatively short time to complete (a few days, max), but I like the repurposing of it.
21:44 cotto especially since nobody's been tagging very many tickets as "newbie"
21:45 dukeleto +1 to making newbie ~~ code-in tasks
21:45 dukeleto newbie tickets probably need more friendly descriptions, with some background.
21:45 cotto alternately, we could have a "code-in" tag
21:47 dukeleto i think a newbie tag is sufficient
21:47 dukeleto it is more useful because code-in could be a one-time or rarely-occuring thing
21:47 dukeleto newbie is a useful tag for parrot in general
21:48 cotto wfm.  We can divide up ranges of tickets during the week for tagging.
21:48 dukeleto If a newbie ticket is trying to be useful for code-in, that can be mentioned, and some background given.
21:48 dukeleto I am done with Code-In related matter.
21:49 dukeleto matters, even.
21:49 cotto dukeleto, is that the extent of the code-in help you'd need?
21:50 dukeleto cotto: no, that is just the beginning. I don't know exactly what will be involved. I have never done something like it, other than GSoC, and this is the first year of Code-In
21:51 cotto dukeleto, I'm willing to help out some with that.
21:51 cotto let me know how when the time comes
21:51 mikehh also
21:53 chromatic Anything else to discuss this week?
21:55 dukeleto There is a parrot hackathon happening soon.
21:56 dukeleto the PDX Gathering/Hackathon this Saturday
21:56 dukeleto Just wanted to mention it. If people want things to be brought up at it, they can ask on parrot-dev.
21:58 cotto looking forward to it
21:59 * dukeleto agrees
22:02 chromatic See you all (some) there.
22:10 dukeleto Are we calling it a wrap?
22:10 chromatic wrap
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