Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-10-26

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Time Nick Message
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12:15 kid51 kid51's report
12:15 kid51 DONE
12:15 kid51 * Completed deprecation in TT #1785.
12:15 kid51 * Completed implementation of new configuration step for ipv6 in TT #1824.
12:15 kid51 * Posted on parrot-dev (http://tinyurl.com/2bqcq2m) call for Parrot Developers Online Summit, Sunday November 6, 1500 UTC.
12:16 kid51 * Posted on parrot-dev (http://tinyurl.com/288ufpd) re how we can use short-term task forces in conjunction with proposed team structure.
12:16 kid51 TO DO
12:16 kid51 * Look into what dukeleto needs in configuration for RTEMS.
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19:15 whiteknight What I did:
19:16 whiteknight * Blogging
19:16 whiteknight * Looking really hard at the embedding interface
19:16 whiteknight * It's going to require an overhaul, I'm prototyping some things locally and asking questions in #parrot
19:16 whiteknight What I will do:
19:16 whiteknight * Work more on the embedding interface
19:17 whiteknight * Looking for an example project to work on for it. I'm thinking a plugin for XChat.
19:17 whiteknight What I am blocking on:
19:17 whiteknight * Nothing
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19:27 dukeleto What I did:
19:27 dukeleto * Attended GSoC Mentor Summit, lead a Dynamic Language Interop session
19:27 dukeleto http://openetherpad.org/dynlanginterop
19:27 dukeleto * Currently at GIT Together 2010
19:27 dukeleto * Got a blog post about Perl+Parrot on the Google Open Source Blog:
19:27 dukeleto http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/10​/perl-and-parrot-spread-open-source-love.html
19:27 dukeleto * Hacked with RTEMS devs at the summit, made good progress on Parrot+RTEMS
19:27 dukeleto * Made TT#1840 to add a c probe to detect if we are running on rtems
19:27 dukeleto * Talked a bunch about our embed/extend api with parrot devs
19:28 dukeleto What I will do:
19:28 dukeleto * Sleep sometime soon.
19:28 dukeleto * Apply to Google Code In for Parrot and possibly The Perl Foundation
19:28 dukeleto http://code.google.com/opens​ource/gci/2010-11/index.html
19:28 dukeleto Blocking on:
19:28 dukeleto * ETIMECOMPRESSIONNOTIMPLEMENTED
19:28 dukeleto * Need to know if we are serious about Google Code-In, deadline is Oct 29th. We need to design tasks for code-in students.
19:28 dukeleto * These talks can be improving our website, translating docs and various other things, not just code.
19:28 dukeleto * Need to know if we want to be our own org in Code-In.
19:28 dukeleto EOR
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20:05 sorear kid51: relevant to 2010.10.24.16.39.59 <@kid51> ... can we draft you onto our fix-the-design-and-APIs team?
20:05 sorear kid51: what exactly do you want me to do?
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20:11 chromatic Done: fixing bugs in 2.9.0's GC
20:11 chromatic Will do: branch to make GC MS2 sweepfree, if possible
20:11 chromatic Blocking: lack of minions
20:14 allison - At the Ubuntu Developer Summit this week.
20:14 allison - Working on a summary of Parrot's sandboxing plans for Ubuntu specs on future sandbox technologies.
20:14 allison - Working on 2.9.1 packages for Debian/Ubuntu.
20:14 allison EOR
20:16 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:16 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:16 mikehh * some fixes
20:16 mikehh * branch testing and fixing
20:16 mikehh * got html_cleanup branch up-to-date
20:16 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:16 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:16 mikehh .eor
20:17 NotFound -parrot
20:17 NotFound * Added a test
20:17 NotFound * Deleted deprecate method String.lower
20:17 NotFound What I will do:
20:17 NotFound No plan
20:17 NotFound EOR
20:18 cotto #done:
20:18 cotto - started a blog, posted about:
20:18 cotto - taking on the architect role
20:18 cotto - what Parrot teams might look like
20:18 cotto - feedback on either is appreciated
20:18 cotto #to do:
20:18 cotto - more blogging
20:18 cotto - get packfilebytecodesegment working, use it in make_hello_pbc, merge into trunk
20:18 cotto #eor
20:18 cotto q4q
20:24 kid51 q2q
20:28 Util No parrot work this week.
20:28 Util 7-day ticket summary:
20:28 Util 4 closed: fixed
20:28 Util 1 closed: invalid
20:28 Util 1 reopened
20:28 Util 8 new
20:28 Util .end
20:29 tcurtis joined #parrotsketch
20:30 kid51 Hello, #parrotsketch
20:30 cotto hi
20:30 sorear hi
20:31 kid51 Who is chairing meeting today?
20:31 mikehh hi there
20:31 chromatic Shall we begin?
20:31 kid51 proceed
20:31 chromatic How'd we do last week?
20:32 chromatic I managed to put in a small amount of GC tuning.
20:32 kid51 Util just posted Trac summary; *very* quiet on that front
20:32 chromatic The probe for available memory seems to work pretty well for me; how is it on smaller boxes?
20:32 kid51 I have been able to build on 256MM
20:33 kid51 After some additional debugging of darwin probe
20:33 cotto There were some platform-specific issues, but I think those got sorted.
20:33 kid51 So, we're no worse off than last week :-)
20:33 chromatic Rakudo is still slow to build.
20:33 kid51 No complaints from Rakudo since 2.9.1, though I haven't seen a release yet
20:34 nwellnhof joined #parrotsketch
20:34 kid51 (We should request Rakudo folks pre-post a report for this meeting.)
20:34 chromatic How many deprecations do we have to remove?
20:35 * kid51 does not know how to get that number quickly
20:35 kid51 anyone else?
20:35 chromatic "A lot" or "Just a few" is a fine answer.
20:36 kid51 In DEPRECATION.pod, I see two entries marked 'eligible in 2.10' -- which presumably means they just became eligible, right?
20:37 chromatic I believe so.
20:37 cotto yes
20:37 kid51 And there are 38 'eligible in' strings in all -- sum going back to 1.1 ;-)
20:37 kid51 145:=item charset, charsetname, find_charset, trans_charset [eligible in 2.10]
20:38 cotto yes.  At this point everything in that file is eligible
20:38 kid51 152:=item fixed_8 encoding [eligible in 2.10]
20:38 chromatic Plenty of work to do then.
20:38 kid51 A 3rd:  256:=item errorson, errorsoff operations [eligible in 2.10]
20:39 chromatic Any suggestions for work this week?
20:39 kid51 TT #1778 and TT #1655
20:39 kid51 Yes. Form teams to work on Embedding and Lorito.
20:40 chromatic I suppose now's as good a time as any to work on those.
20:40 chromatic Who's interested in embedding?
20:40 kid51 whiteknight is chomping at the bit to implement better APIs for embedding
20:40 kid51 and dukeleto is doing it
20:41 kid51 and there was considerable interest in embedding on #parrot yesterday
20:41 cotto I asked atrodo to write up his experiences implementing a Lorito prototype.  From that, I'll form a list of questions to answer.
20:42 chromatic Do we have leaders for both teams?
20:42 cotto Lorito is a pretty architecty thing.
20:42 kid51 Since this will be our first attempt at implementing the 'team' concept as outline in cotto's post, I suggest whiteknight for Embedding and cotto for Lorito
20:42 cotto wfm
20:43 chromatic +1
20:43 kid51 And then they can delegate from there.  Or the teams can delegate amongst themselves.
20:43 chromatic Shall we move on to questions?
20:44 kid51 k
20:44 chromatic cotto, first question.
20:44 cotto We could benefit from having someone to lead the QA team.  The responsibilities are on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ParrotTeams, but basically the job involves making sure that people write tests and documentation and that tests get run.  Is anyone willing to take this role on?
20:45 kid51 If someone other than me is designated as Project manager, then I would consider being QA leader.
20:45 cotto kid51, do you feel like you'd be better suited to QA?
20:46 kid51 but i don't see other people coming forward for project manager, and that's the way my own thinking has tended in last week
20:46 allison kid51: it was mentioned that you might temporarily wear both hats
20:47 kid51 I think it's more important that we get/name/elect a Project Manager first.
20:47 allison kid51: agreed that's the most important role now
20:47 kid51 But we should get 1 person/hat
20:47 chromatic I'm the wrong person for QA, but I don't mind PM.
20:48 cotto +1 to chromatic for PM and kid51 for QA
20:48 kid51 I approached one person about QA, who had hesitations, but perhaps discussion can continue
20:48 mikehh I like that idea, chromatic for PM, kid51 for QA
20:48 mikehh I am quite happy to help out on both teams
20:49 cotto kid51, how do you feel about that?
20:49 kid51 Re either role, we will have to discuss (not necessarily now), what the job entails and what authority the person(s) in that role has.
20:49 kid51 Because a PM or a QA lead without authority is ... helpless.
20:50 cotto authority is as authority does
20:50 cotto (within reason)
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20:50 chromatic Other thoughts?
20:51 chromatic Let's table that temporarily then.
20:51 kid51 Should we designate those roles now ... or is this something that should be a topic at Summit (11/07)?  (I could go either way.)
20:51 NotFound Sorry, been busy unexpectedly.
20:51 kid51 Certainly, roles and structure should be determined by end of Summit.
20:52 kid51 chromatic: Maybe you and I can discuss this off-channel and figure out division of labor.
20:52 chromatic Fine with me.
20:53 chromatic kid51, you had a question.  (I'll get back to cotto's others shortly.)
20:53 kid51 Well, I had two things.  First was on teams, which we've already partially discussed.
20:53 kid51 I'd simply like to recommend that any team have:
20:53 kid51 name
20:53 kid51 leader
20:53 kid51 mission
20:54 kid51 Trac ticket describing mission
20:54 kid51 members
20:54 kid51 duration
20:54 cotto why a ticket?
20:54 kid51 and teams can consider using #parrotsketch for team meetings on days other than Tuesdays
20:54 kid51 Because the kind of teams we were just discussing are focused around particular problems/projects and are likely to have a limited duration
20:55 kid51 Embedding:  "a" product management team/task force rather than "the" product management team
20:55 chromatic Lorito and Embedding?
20:55 kid51 Yes
20:55 cotto Ah.  You're talking about task forces, not the general team structure
20:55 mikehh I think yes to Trac, but not necessarily a ticket
20:55 kid51 Let's take Embedding
20:56 kid51 I know that whiteknight has some very specific problems he'd like to solve in 1-3 months.
20:56 kid51 So we can focus people on that.
20:57 kid51 And a trac ticket can follow that task force's progress.
20:57 * kid51 is not wed to this idea ... but I think a project manager would like some easy way to track a team's progress
20:58 NotFound I'll prefer several ticktes with sorter term goals.
20:58 chromatic +1 NotFound
20:58 NotFound shorter
20:58 NotFound For the big task, a wiki page.
20:58 kid51 Well, I think this can be worked out between the task force's leader and the project manager
20:59 kid51 The main thing is:  mission members leader
21:00 kid51 So, those are my thoughts on that q; we can go on
21:00 mikehh I can see a possible problem here, pressures of $work can necessitate handing off the leader role
21:00 chromatic cotto, next question
21:00 cotto We want to do Google's Code-In, which is essentially GSoC Jr.  dukeleto doesn't have the tuits unless TPF can come up with a grant, which seems unlikely.  We'd like to be our own org, but we'll need an org admin.  Any volunteers?  Note that because this is the first year for Code-In, there should be lots of people asking the questions you'll need answered.
21:01 kid51 $job; back in a few
21:02 sorear I am a Parrot mostly-outsider whom kid51 has approached for the architecture and APIs team; what are my place and duties?
21:03 mikehh sorear: I don't think we have finalized these yet
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21:03 chromatic What kind of duties does the Code-In admin need to perform?
21:04 cotto dukeleto would know best.  Apparently it's more work than might be expected.
21:06 cotto Apparently he had to take off.
21:06 chromatic I see no volunteers; should we table that too?
21:06 cotto I guess so.
21:06 cotto next question: We also need a list of small tasks for Code-In students.  These should be pretty short (write docs, translate, small bufixes) and documnted on the wiki.  Any volunteers for that?
21:07 chromatic How small is small?
21:07 cotto http://code.google.com/opensou​rce/gci/2010-11/faqs.html#tq1
21:08 chromatic Anything they can help with on the docs branch?
21:09 cotto That'd be a good place.
21:10 cotto If nothing else, I'll start a wiki page.
21:11 chromatic +1
21:11 cotto last question: dukeleto suggested that the team leads have a regular meeting (weekly or monthly) via skype as a dedicated channel and an attempt to gain some of the benefits of face-to-face interaction.  Any thoughts, especially from leads?
21:13 * cotto listens to the crickets
21:14 kid51 As mentioned above, #parrotsketch is under-utilized and could be used as well as skype
21:14 * NotFound is skype-free
21:14 chromatic +1 to #ps
21:14 * kid51 got his skype account last night ... but no one is calling :-(
21:15 kid51 IIUC, computer-to-computer calls are free, right?
21:15 NotFound #ps is logged
21:16 atrodo kid51> correct
21:16 * dukeleto is back
21:16 cotto there's no reason video chat can't be transcribed, though it's not automatic
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21:16 NotFound Also, my spoken english sucks a lot.
21:16 dukeleto I am fine with plain audo chat
21:16 dukeleto audio, even
21:17 cotto I like the immediacy of face time, and skype or audio-only chat is a good way to simulate that.
21:17 * dukeleto backlogs
21:17 NotFound I'll send you a photo if you want to see my face ;)
21:18 kid51 we don't need the video (me haz no webcam) but it would be *great* to hear other peoples' voices!
21:18 cotto The perl6 guys do a regular call.  How does that work?
21:19 NotFound Hearing my voice in english will not be great, but maybe amusing.
21:19 kid51 NotFound: we can have a side chat in Spanish
21:19 cotto Um... no comprendo.
21:19 chromatic The Sixperl call uses a conference call bridge.
21:19 cotto ;)
21:20 kid51 can u explain what that is?
21:20 NotFound I don't even know how to pronounce 'winxed' X-)
21:20 kid51 different from a regular conference call?
21:20 dukeleto NotFound: "winged" :)
21:21 chromatic Just a number into which we all dial.
21:21 cotto How hard is that to set up, and is it recorded?
21:22 chromatic Nat Torkington set it up ages ago, and it's not recorded.
21:22 cotto Maybe Google Voice could help.
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21:23 cotto As a bonus, we'd get hilariously mangled automatic transcriptions.
21:23 sorear NotFound: how did you come up with the name?
21:24 sorear chromatic: how does the recording + blogging work?
21:24 NotFound sorear: Watchig a Winx Club film.
21:25 chromatic There's no recording.
21:25 kid51 Well, I think that the important thing now is:  Are we actually going to set up these (2) task forces now?  Then their leaders can organize the logistics
21:25 NotFound sorear: And mixing it with the sugestion of naming winxed-... the parrot implementation of some languages
21:26 NotFound winged-...
21:26 * cotto will
21:26 kid51 concretely, are people like atrodo NotFound sorear interested in being part of these limited-term efforts
21:27 NotFound kid51: I don't think I have the ability of evaluating what tasks are appropiate for beginners.
21:28 dukeleto If we are serious about Google Code-In, we need a task force for it
21:28 kid51 NotFound: Are you talking about the Google code-in?  (I was referring to Embedding and Lorito)
21:28 NotFound kid51: ah, sorry, I mixed up.
21:28 kid51 Well, maybe we're talking 3 task forces:  Embedding; Lorito; Code-in ...
21:28 cotto dukeleto, can you give us some idea what you think would be involved in being the org admin?
21:29 NotFound kid51: I've already talked with whiteknight about being in the embedding effort.
21:29 kid51 ... more or less led by whiteknight, cotto and dukeleto respectively
21:29 kid51 NotFound: Excellent!
21:29 kid51 excelente!
21:30 mikehh dukeleto: I am quite happy to help out with testing and stuff like that
21:30 dukeleto cotto: it will be very similar to being the GSoC org admin
21:30 dukeleto cotto: what level of detail are you looking for?
21:30 atrodo kid51> I do plan on, at some level, being involved in the embedding and lorito task forces
21:31 cotto Give a potential volunteer an idea of what he'd be getting into.
21:31 kid51 atrodo:  Great!  You can work out the details with each task force leader
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21:32 dukeleto I need people to design "tasks" for 13-18 students, that introduce them to being involved in an open source project. I think we need some tasks making parrot.org more useful, and possibly translating some of our pages into other languages
21:32 kid51 sorear: Are you interested in one of these 3 teams?
21:32 dukeleto 13-18 *year old* students
21:32 Tene If there's sufficient desire for recorded audio conferences, I could set up a sip server with asterisk.
21:32 dukeleto I don't know how many students we will mentor. I am actually supposed to ask for how many slots that I want
21:32 dukeleto Tene: that could be cool.
21:32 cotto Tene, +1
21:33 NotFound I hope that recent interest in video chats is not related with the posibility of having 13-18 years old involved... ;)
21:33 dukeleto cotto: your summary earlier in #ps is incorrect. It is not lack of tuits, and I *will* be the admin. But I need mentors to design tasks.
21:34 cotto dukeleto, glad to hear it then.  Designing tasks is something that parallelizes nicely.
21:34 cotto and I'm sure we can come up with some mentors
21:34 dukeleto http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2010/​10/google-code-in-schools-out-codes-in.html
21:35 sorear NotFound: My understanding is that the video chat is only for team heads; Skype (and a new computer w/ a hardware MPEG codec, a microphone, etc) would be a huge increase in the barrier to entry for me...
21:35 dukeleto cotto: we need to get on that soon, application deadline is Friday
21:35 sorear kid51: Lorito if any.
21:35 cotto sorear, it sounds like we're moving toward voice-only, which has some advantages
21:35 kid51 Excellent.  I refer you to Mssrs. cotto and atrodo.
21:37 dukeleto another useful GCI link: http://code.google.com/opens​ource/gci/2010-11/rules.html
21:39 chromatic Any other questions?
21:39 dukeleto So who wants to be a mentor for Google Code-In and help design tasks?
21:39 * cotto does
21:39 kid51 Anyone else here whose arm we can twist about being on a team/task force?  Tene?  allison? Util?
21:39 Tene kid51: Maybe.  I've been extremely unreliable about everything for the past months.
21:40 Tene I'd love to help, but I haven't been able to actually get anything done.
21:40 chromatic Does having a concrete set of tasks help?
21:41 dukeleto chromatic: We need a list of tasks to apply, and the application deadline is Friday.
21:41 dukeleto chromatic: without tasks, we can't even apply
21:42 chromatic I meant for Tene.
21:42 * dukeleto facepalms
21:42 * kid51 gives Tene a 3-sided coin to flip :-)
21:43 chromatic Any other questions?
21:44 Tene chromatic: It's certainly helped a lot in the past.  It hasn't seemed to help recently.
21:44 Tene There's an open invitation for anyone to try to harass me into working.  I have no recommendations on what might work.
21:44 dukeleto Tene: can you spend a few mins designing tasks for student for GCI?
21:45 tcurtis kid51: I would love to help with Lorito (or something else), but I lack the tuits, and if I do have spare tuits for Parrot, I should probably spend them on making my GSoC project mergeable.
21:45 chromatic Even porting tests from Perl 5 to PIR would work.
21:45 cotto tcurtis, that'd be a valuable contribution.
21:45 dukeleto tcurtis++ # merge that branch!
21:45 Tene GCI?
21:46 cotto Google Code-In
21:46 dukeleto cotto++
21:48 kid51 r we done?
21:48 Tene Is there a place we're coordinating what we present to GCI?
21:48 Tene This is the first I'm hearing about GCI
21:49 Tene I'm at work right now, but I can see what I can do tonight.
21:49 chromatic GCI needs a leader who isn't dukeleto.
21:49 kid51 GCI => Google code-in
21:49 chromatic Or at least an organizer.
21:50 kid51 mikehh: Can you be that person?
21:50 cotto http://trac.parrot.org/parro​t/wiki/GoogleCodeIn2010Tasks (currently a stub)
21:51 mikehh I can try and co-ordinate with dukeleto as leader
21:51 kid51 Great!  (And that will get you out of being QA leader ;-) )
21:53 dukeleto cotto++ # making a wiki page
21:53 * kid51 has to go home and do laundry
21:53 dukeleto mikehh++ # awesome!
21:54 chromatic Shall we call this a meeting then?
21:54 * dukeleto adds some content to the GCI wiki page
21:54 mikehh dukeleto: I can certainly put something together re test from perl5 to PIR, need help for other ideas
21:54 dukeleto mikehh: i will give you some ideas
21:54 dukeleto mikehh: remember, non-code projects are allowable too
21:55 mikehh sure but I am not sure about aiming at 13-18 age group
21:56 cotto mikehh, pick relatively unintimidating tasks and don't assume we'll get a bunch more tcurtises
21:57 mikehh we can hope :-}
21:58 kid51 left #parrotsketch
22:01 * dukeleto goes back to #parrot
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