Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-11-09

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Time Nick Message
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11:46 kid51 Parrotsketchers:  Remember that 20:30 UTC arrives one hour earlier in most of North America starting today:  3:30pm EST, 12:30pm PST.
11:57 kid51 kid51's report
11:57 kid51 DONE
11:57 kid51 * Closed, re-opened and re-closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1841 adding 'osvers' key-value pair to configuration data.
11:57 kid51 * Closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/396 "32/64 bit data on smolder reports"
11:57 kid51 * Worked on several older ticket:
11:57 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/855 "profiling options too specific to GCC"
11:58 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/532 "headerizer refactor"
11:58 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1415 "parrot macport"
11:58 kid51 WILL DO
11:58 kid51 * Will continue to work on above tickets
11:58 kid51 * Won't have time for Parrot work until Wed eve; will probably be absorbed with transition to git rest of week
11:58 kid51 REQUESTS
11:58 kid51 * Need feedback on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1840 "config step to detect RTEMS"
11:58 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1844: Can someone add basic git instructions to README?  (These could be brief but also point to more complete discussion on Parrot wiki.)
11:59 kid51 And thanks to dukeleto++, mikehh++, cotto++ and all other who spent many hours on version control system transition.
11:59 kid51 END
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15:26 plobsing_ What I Did:
15:26 plobsing_ * worked towards gsoc_nci merge (ugly sync w/ master, codingstd)
15:26 plobsing_ * complain (TT #1842)
15:26 plobsing_ * support for parrot-libjit-fb (yay I haz a user)
15:26 plobsing_ What I Plan:
15:26 plobsing_ * gsoc_nci merge sometime *this* week (testing much appreciated, ask me how)
15:26 plobsing_ * concrete action plan for TT #1842 (pending decision in #ps)
15:27 plobsing_ EOR
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15:59 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
15:59 whiteknight * Cheered from the sidelines for the git migration. Kudos to all involved.
15:59 whiteknight * Created a fork on github, started prototyping the new embed API. Coming to a point where I will want wide feedback, especially on a few key issues
15:59 whiteknight * Blogged, and got my new blog feed up on planet parrot
15:59 whiteknight * Merged in the stdhandle_meths branch. I had intended to do it weeks ago but it fell through the cracks. Done now.
15:59 whiteknight * Created a small handful of GCI tasks, have more ideas, but need time to jam them in.
15:59 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
15:59 whiteknight * Continue working on the new API
15:59 whiteknight * Planning to create a new project to test it. The xchat-parrot project I started doesn't seem the right place for it.
15:59 whiteknight * Create more GCI tasks
15:59 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
15:59 whiteknight * Teething baby. Seriously, the poor kid has like 8 teeth coming in simultaneously.
15:59 whiteknight EOR
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16:30 dukeleto Did:
16:30 dukeleto * Worked on GCI stuff. Still need to do a lot more.
16:30 dukeleto * Converted us to Git. Had to do it again because I accidentally gave commits from GeJ++ to gerd++
16:30 dukeleto This is now fixed and all is well. You need a "git pull --rebase --tags" if you have the old repo.
16:30 dukeleto Or you can clone again.
16:30 dukeleto * Currently at an Evolutionary Biology Hackathon, and talked to many people about Parrot and Perl 6,
16:30 dukeleto fixing FUD.
16:30 dukeleto * Looked at some of our failing tests for Parrot::Revision. I think Parrot::Revision is a big ball of overcomplication.
16:30 dukeleto It needs to be fixed with fire.
16:30 dukeleto Will do:
16:30 dukeleto * Make our org page for GCI
16:30 dukeleto * Add more tasks to GCI
16:30 dukeleto * Write blog posts about GCI
16:30 dukeleto * Write a "how to submit patches" section for our git_workflow.pod, requested by allison
16:30 dukeleto Blocking on:
16:30 dukeleto * Wanting to be utterly lazy, but failing at that.
16:30 dukeleto .EOR
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17:48 mikehh What I did since my last report:
17:48 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
17:48 mikehh * some fixes
17:48 mikehh * branch testing and fixing
17:48 mikehh * did some work on GCI - needs to do more
17:48 mikehh * got my git migration working - trying to sort out problem tests
17:48 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
17:48 mikehh * testing and fixing
17:48 mikehh * get something workable for GCI
17:48 mikehh .eor
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18:12 moritz I have more of a question than a report
18:12 moritz I have a local patch for parrot that changes the 'revision' config to git-describe output instead of a SHA1
18:12 moritz moritz@trudi:~/p6/rakudo/parrot>./parrot_config revision
18:12 moritz RELEASE_2_9_1-204-gc762e42
18:13 moritz this has the advantage of letting us (ie the rakudo and other HLL devs) compare revisions without having the parrot git repo available
18:13 moritz any objections to me pushing the commit?
18:13 moritz EOQ.
18:18 moritz P.S.: patch at http://nopaste.snit.ch/25448
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19:03 dukeleto moritz: let's talk about that question in #parrot
19:03 moritz dukeleto: wfm
19:29 cotto_work *did:
19:29 cotto_work - helped dukeleto knock out the git migration
19:29 cotto_work - tried and failed to notifty parrot-dev due to the latter being broken
19:29 cotto_work - worked with osuosl to get trac working with the github trac plugin
19:29 cotto_work - udpated trac to include the history dukeleto rewrote
19:30 cotto_work - everything seems to be working now
19:30 cotto_work *will do:
19:30 cotto_work - help clean up the leftovers from the git move
19:30 cotto_work - get back into opmap_aware_pmcs
19:30 cotto_work - raise the bus number for Lorito's overall design
19:30 cotto_work *blockers:
19:30 cotto_work *eor
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19:50 chromatic I'm still poking at the GC MS2 tuning branch.  A full Rakudo spectest run on 64- and 32-bit platforms would make me more comfortable about merging.
20:03 NotFound What I did (last two weeks):
20:03 NotFound -parrot:
20:03 NotFound * Added a few test
20:03 NotFound What I will do:
20:03 NotFound Get used to git.
20:03 NotFound EOR
20:14 Util moritz: +1 to push "git describe" patch.
20:14 Util # Done:
20:14 Util * No pure-Parrot work this week.
20:14 Util * Added 14 Perl 6 solutions to RosettaCode
20:14 Util * Expanded RosettaCode Quaternion solution to full Perl6 module.
20:14 Util # Plan to do:
20:14 Util * Contribute Advent calender ideas.
20:14 Util * No pure-Parrot work next week. Pbc_to_exe after that.
20:14 Util .end
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20:33 whiteknight 'ello
20:33 kid51 Hello, #parrotsketch
20:33 chromatic hello
20:33 mikehh hi there
20:33 darbelo Hi
20:33 cotto_work hi
20:33 chromatic I hear our migration worked.
20:33 whiteknight yessir. Wonderfully
20:33 cotto_work no limbs were lost
20:34 chromatic Now Rakudo needs some way to track head.
20:34 kid51 Have we identified loose ends and the people who are going to tie them up?
20:34 dukeleto hola
20:34 dukeleto Blood was shed in the migration, but I have recovered.
20:34 dukeleto kid51: are you volunteering? ;)
20:35 mikehh seems to be working - test seem to pass now, wqith a bit of fiddling
20:35 kid51 No, because I won't have any time to spend on that until next Monday at the earliest
20:35 mikehh with
20:35 dukeleto Parrot::Revision is currently slightly broken and needs to be cleaned with fire.
20:35 dukeleto kid51: well, then. No fun for you.
20:35 kid51 I can look at Parrot::Revision but only if it's non-urgent
20:35 dukeleto kid51: i am most likely going to delete it, so it isn't urgent
20:35 mikehh I've got 3 tests TODOed at the moment
20:35 dukeleto mikehh: i just fiddled with those :)
20:36 dukeleto mikehh: git pull --rebase :)
20:36 chromatic Can I suggest an alternate approach for Rakudo?
20:36 dukeleto chromatic: alternate approach to what?
20:36 chromatic Compare timestamps instead of SHAs.
20:36 kid51 IIRC we used Parrot::Revision to generate data used in 'parrot --version'
20:36 mikehh kid51: yes
20:37 dukeleto chromatic: we are probably going to compare git-describe strings. But dates could work for most cases. But they will fail when it comes to corner cases in version numbering.
20:37 NotFound Sorry, got distracted. Hola.
20:37 chromatic We don't need to compare version numbers when working with trunk.
20:38 whiteknight We need to capture all relevant data, and leave it up to the HLL devs to decide how to use it in comparisons
20:38 dukeleto chromatic: i have a plan.
20:38 chromatic My concern is overcomplication.
20:38 dukeleto Tarballs can only depend on version numbers. If the parrot repo is available, then sha1's or describe strings can be used
20:39 dukeleto chromatic: i worry about that as well.
20:39 chromatic Separating tarballs from head is a good start.
20:40 dukeleto so tarballs will use the 'version' config key, repos can use the 'sha1' or 'git_describe' config key
20:40 chromatic Anything else we need to schedule/prioritize regarding the migration?
20:40 dukeleto I just pushed a commit that makes Parrot::Revision always return "r50000" to tell old HLLs "this parrot is too new for you"
20:41 dukeleto i will store the git sha1 in a 'sha1' config key
20:41 kid51 Has the Subversion repository been made read-only?
20:41 mikehh I kinda feel a bit lost at the moment - it is surprising how much I relied on emails and dalek to work out what has been happening
20:41 cotto_work kid51: yes
20:41 dukeleto kid51: yep, a while ago
20:42 darbelo dukeleto: No HLL cheks for that. They check for a parrot *too old*.
20:42 mikehh at r49810
20:42 dukeleto darbelo: hmm. I suspect you are right. My thinking was backwards.
20:42 kid51 mikehh: I agree with you about the "lost" feeling
20:42 dukeleto darbelo: i guess i should be returning 0 instead
20:43 kid51 mikehh: What I've come to realize is that there are a vast number of administrative tasks needed to keep this project going.
20:43 dukeleto why do y'all feel lost?
20:43 mikehh kid51: yeah definately
20:43 dukeleto i understand that some things, outside of our control, conspired to make the git migratin more difficult
20:43 dukeleto like parrot-dev going down
20:43 kid51 Because I like to know what's being committed, when the wiki is changing, etc.
20:43 dukeleto I can't do anything about that.
20:43 dukeleto kid51: git log -p
20:44 dukeleto dalek went down: That was out of our control as well. sorear++ just fixed it
20:44 kid51 dukeleto: I haven't had time to begin working with the github repo, so git log -p is a ways off for me.
20:44 mikehh dukeleto: was just saying I looked at the emails and dalek stuff in #parrot a lot
20:44 kid51 dukeleto: But is sorear's fix *still* working?
20:45 dukeleto kid51: well, let me know when you catch up to the future. There is also github rss feeds that you can subscribe to.
20:45 dukeleto kid51: if you want to volunteer to check, go ahead
20:45 dukeleto Complaining without volunteering isn't very useful.
20:45 kid51 dukeleto: I don't find these comments helpful.
20:45 whiteknight no fighting
20:45 mikehh dukeleto: not complainin' just observin'
20:46 dukeleto It was a general statement, i am not trying to say that kid51 or mikehh are complaining.
20:46 chromatic Shall we move on?
20:46 dukeleto But as someone who spent dozens of hours in the last few days on the migration, I am hearing more complaints than thanks.
20:46 dukeleto And that doesn't make me feel good.
20:46 kid51 dukeleto: The problem is that we need people for these administrative/infrastructural tasks who are not also heavily involved in coding.
20:46 mikehh dukeleto: ++
20:47 dukeleto kid51: yes, i agree.
20:47 mikehh or should I say dukeleto++
20:47 NotFound dukeleto: thanks!
20:47 cotto_work We do plan on making parrot-commits work again.  We might just need a breather.
20:47 whiteknight it's a matter of deciding how they should work. We could have github post-commit emails being sent out immediately if that's what we wanted
20:47 dukeleto Just to clarify: I do not think kid51 or mikehh were complaining, i was just expressing a general feeling.
20:48 whiteknight if we want a format or features they don't offer, that's different
20:48 cotto_work Seeing that a commit happened and which files it touched is nice (which is what github offers), but having the contents of those diffs is much nicer.
20:49 whiteknight cotto_work: yeah, but if those diffs are huge, getting them via email is lousy
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20:49 cotto_work I suppose we could easily enough enable github's default emails until something better is possible.
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20:50 chromatic Do we have a volunteer to take that on?
20:50 cotto_work whiteknight: we can have separate lists if you prefer.  It's a separate list so it won't be sent to anyone who didn't sign up for it.
20:50 cotto_work er, separate lists for what github sends out by default and for the full diffs
20:50 whiteknight cotto_work: if we don't have a custom solution in place soon, the standard github emails do seem like a nice stopgap
20:50 cotto_work I'll get that going.
20:51 whiteknight who knows, after experiencing them, people might prefer to more brief emails
20:51 dukeleto cotto_work: it should be clicking one button in the github admin interface
20:51 cotto_work using parrot-commits for now
20:51 cotto_work dukeleto: and any permissions issues with osuosl
20:51 mikehh I just find that the fact that some parrot mailing lists went down and dalek gave up just when we were migrating is just another case of Murphey's Law
20:51 whiteknight yes, it was a particularly bad confluence of events
20:52 whiteknight the osuosl guys don't seem to know the root cause of the list failures, but they are watching it closely
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20:53 dukeleto so, what is our business for this #ps?
20:53 dukeleto most of this conversation could be in #parrot
20:53 whiteknight We have 2.10 coming up in a week. tcurtis is on the chopping block for it
20:54 mikehh 'k - I think chromatic should merge gc_ms2_sf
20:54 whiteknight he's been busy, we should probably check that he's still up for it
20:54 chromatic Are there any features we must merge for 2.10?
20:54 whiteknight mikehh: Agreed
20:54 chromatic or deprecated features to remove?
20:54 dukeleto gsoc_nci is *so close*
20:54 cotto_work We need a volunteer to work through the git-based release process to make sure it's workable.
20:54 chromatic Oh yes, gsoc_nci.
20:54 whiteknight I need to get in touch with shockwave, I think I have all the embedding interface stuff he requires for his work. It's a very very small subset of things I will be adding
20:54 whiteknight so we're good on that front for 2.10
20:55 whiteknight I can put some eyes on gsoc_nci in the next few days, probably
20:55 dukeleto Since I wrote the docs for a git-based release, I am not a good person to test it. But I will help whoever does it.
20:55 dukeleto plobsing said he needed testing on gsoc_nci
20:56 chromatic Do we have a volunteer to manage the gsoc_nci merge?
20:56 kid51 Re deprecations:
20:56 chromatic I'll work on gc_ms2_sf merge after I hear about whiteknight's testing tomorrow.
20:56 kid51 nwellnhof: I think the branch mentioned here is ready to merge:  http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1778
20:56 kid51 Correct?
20:57 nwellnhof yes, i was just waiting for the git switch to happen.
20:57 mikehh chromatic: I tested on i386 and amd64 (g++ with --optimize) taests same as in trunk
20:58 mikehh but a bit faster, especially rakudo build (10% improvement)
20:58 kid51 Also re deprecations:  If we can get feedback from plobsing/luben we can address this one:  http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1655
20:58 whiteknight chromatic: I will try to push that up to tonight then, if you're waiting on little ole me
20:58 chromatic Please do, thanks.
20:58 chromatic Confirmation from two other people increases my confidence.
20:58 whiteknight plobsing was looking at gsoc_nci too. I'm sure he'll have his hands on it
21:00 chromatic Other organizational or scheduling issues to discuss today?
21:00 whiteknight none for me
21:01 chromatic Question time then.
21:02 chromatic Any questions?
21:02 mikehh what about GCI?
21:02 dukeleto I need help with it.
21:02 * dukeleto volunteers for too much.
21:03 dukeleto Students will start grabbing tasks Nov 22nd.
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21:03 mikehh I've got some stuff to do there and am working on it as well
21:03 * dukeleto needs to write a blog post about GCI. Really needs to
21:04 whiteknight I can offer a little help here and there
21:04 whiteknight dukeleto: can you outline what help you need, or what roles specifically you need other people to fill?
21:05 mikehh so we have less than 2 weeks to get things ready
21:06 dukeleto whiteknight: i need people to volunteer as mentors for tasks
21:06 * dukeleto will not be mentoring any tasks. Admin'ing is work enough.
21:07 whiteknight I can mentor almost any task that doesn't involve translating
21:07 whiteknight I barely speak english
21:07 mikehh I'll help as I can and will amke myself available for any #parrot related questions
21:07 mikehh make
21:08 dukeleto mikehh++ whiteknight++
21:08 mikehh but my sentiments regarding translations agfree with whiteknight
21:09 mikehh agree
21:09 dukeleto we already have translation mentors. They just might not know it yet.
21:09 * kid51 prints out GCI wiki page to look at tasks
21:10 mikehh we probably need to push for othewrs there, and clearly define what is to be translated
21:11 mikehh others, my typing had started to go to pieces
21:11 chromatic Is that sufficient committer-power to handle GCI?
21:12 * Util lives next door to a T-shirt screen-printer, and should have time to mentor.
21:12 dukeleto Util++
21:12 chromatic Anything else to discuss today?
21:13 dukeleto we should focus on getting rakudo to talk to parrot.git before 2.10
21:13 dukeleto i am doing some of the parrot side, moritz is doing the rakudo side
21:13 mikehh and taptinder needs to move to git
21:14 mikehh smoke seems to work ok
21:15 mikehh although most of the smokes seem to be still tied to svn at r49810
21:15 whiteknight I think there are some smoke bots that haven't gotten the git memo yet
21:16 mikehh I seem to remember one bot that was running parrot 0.9.0 for a long time
21:17 chromatic Should we gather a list of contact points for various smokers?
21:17 whiteknight yes
21:18 dukeleto Can we deprecate Parrot::Revision ?
21:18 dukeleto does any external project use it? Does it need a dep cycle ?
21:19 whiteknight I say "no"
21:19 tcurtis On the subject of 2.10, yes, I am still up for being release manager.
21:19 whiteknight tcurtis++
21:19 dukeleto tcurtis++
21:19 cotto_work tcurtis++
21:19 dukeleto tcurtis: you are a brave man :)
21:20 chromatic Anything else for today?
21:21 dukeleto One thing.
21:21 dukeleto People should try to use branches more often now, for anything "bigger than a breadbox"
21:21 cotto_work I'm sure that will come more naturally as the pain of svn branches fades from memory.
21:22 dukeleto cotto_work: indeed.
21:22 cotto_work I've blocked it out, but I'm sure other people can remember it.
21:22 mikehh cotto_work: :-}
21:22 cotto_work +1 to more branching
21:22 chromatic Is that in the committer guide?
21:22 whiteknight if not, it will be
21:23 chromatic Can someone mail the highlights of the changes to parrot-dev?
21:23 dukeleto highlights?
21:23 dukeleto https://github.com/parrot/parrot/blob/master/docs/project/git_workflow.pod
21:23 chromatic What's new that Git provides that we should consider doing differently.
21:24 dukeleto chromatic: that is a good question.
21:25 * dukeleto will pontificate on it
21:25 dukeleto is it a wrap?
21:26 whiteknight wrap it
21:26 chromatic Wrap it.  Thanks, everyone.
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