Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-11-23

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13:03 kid51 kid51's report
13:03 kid51 * Mostly worked on older tickets.
13:03 kid51 * Closed 3 tickets; took a couple of new ones.
13:04 kid51 * Discussed upcoming Parrot Developer Summit with cotto and whiteknight
13:05 kid51 * Will continue to work on Trac tickets I have taken
13:05 kid51 * EOR
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16:20 whiteknight WHAT I DID
16:20 whiteknight * Triaged a bunch of tickets and closed several (#1151, #993, #909, #827, #467, #1860, #581, #628, #642, #194, #299, #300, #1770, #548, #1450)
16:21 whiteknight * Assigned myself to tickets dealing with HLLs, embedding/extending, and our users
16:21 whiteknight * Stopped hashes from autovivifying (#1561). Will work on arrays next to try and get that ticket closed.
16:21 whiteknight * Cleaned up some metadata in Trac
16:21 whiteknight * Worked more on the embed_api branch. With my most recent commits (not pushed) We can build and run parrot normally again
16:21 whiteknight * created dynlexpad_iter branch to make the DynLexPad PMC type iterable. Prototype code is in place, as soon as somebody writes a use-case or test for me I will be able to merge it (#1028)
16:21 whiteknight * Created the get_user_id branch to solve issues in #731. Can merge and close if somebody can write me a test for the behavior
16:21 whiteknight * Creating several dozen GCI tasks for enthusiastic students
16:21 whiteknight * Started contacting Parrot users as part of the Product Management role to start getting feedback. Am thinking about holding semi-regular meetings for the purpose
16:21 whiteknight * Sent out an email to the list asking people to focus on deprecations and experimentals for the 2.11 release. Several tickets I mentioned have already been closed. I have several questions to bring up today and in the next few #ps meetings
16:21 whiteknight * Working to prepare for PDS on December 5th.
16:21 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO
16:21 whiteknight * Continue working on the embed_api branch. Would like to get it usable, if not merge-ready by the end of the week. Will likely need some feedback and maybe a deprecation or two before final merge.
16:21 whiteknight * Continue working on GCI, creating new tasks and mentoring students
16:21 whiteknight * Continue working on ticket triage. Hoping to get down to 550 tickets or less (close about 50) before 2.11. Help is always appreciated.
16:21 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON
16:21 whiteknight * only 24 hours in the day.
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17:20 NotFound What I did:
17:20 NotFound -parrot
17:20 NotFound * Implemented Parrot_gepid for win32 platform.
17:20 NotFound * Change set/get _addr to _label in test files.
17:20 NotFound * Added some tests.
17:20 NotFound * Closed some minor tickets.
17:20 NotFound -winxed
17:20 NotFound * Minor refactors, improving a bit the generated code.
17:20 NotFound What I will do:
17:20 NotFound No plan.
17:20 NotFound EOR
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18:58 Util # Done: * pbc_to_exe work, both NQP version and brain-dump.
18:58 Util # Plan to do: * Push pbc_to_exe branch to GitHub * Publish brain-dump on Parrot wiki * More pbc_to_exe improvements
18:58 Util # Blockers: * None
18:58 Util .end
18:58 Util (retrying)
18:58 Util # Done:
18:58 Util * pbc_to_exe work, both NQP version and brain-dump.
18:58 Util # Plan to do:
18:58 Util * Push pbc_to_exe branch to GitHub
18:58 Util * Publish brain-dump on Parrot wiki
18:58 Util * More pbc_to_exe improvements
18:58 Util # Blockers:
18:58 Util * None
18:58 Util .end
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19:37 bacek I merged gc_ms2_faster_list branch which make rakudo about 30% faster.
19:40 tcurtis I won't be able to attend #ps (school obligations interfere) today. I did nothing, and this weekend I'm hoping to spend some of my free time on getting my GSOC project back into the gsoc_past_optimization branch (and maybe even work on fixing any bugs if I have time).
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19:48 nwellnhof what i did
19:48 nwellnhof - had a look at the IO code, especially wrt Unicode
19:48 nwellnhof plans
19:48 nwellnhof - merge string_checks branch
19:48 nwellnhof - work on IO and Unicode
19:48 nwellnhof eor
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19:56 plobsing What I Did:
19:56 plobsing * deprecations (old ops, pir syntax, codestring)
19:56 plobsing * eliminate pbc interp constant hack
19:56 plobsing What I Plan:
19:56 plobsing * pmc backreferences in pbc constants
19:56 plobsing EOR
20:12 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:12 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:12 mikehh * some fixes
20:12 mikehh * get version 2.10.1 fixes incorporated to get rakudo to build on latest parrot
20:12 mikehh * some branch testing and fixing
20:12 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:12 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:12 mikehh .eor
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20:31 whiteknight hello
20:31 darbelo hi
20:31 cotto hi
20:31 bacek aloha
20:31 Util Hello
20:31 plobsing o/
20:32 NotFound Hola
20:32 mikehh hi there
20:33 whiteknight Okay, let's get started. How did we do last week?
20:34 bacek 2 releases, few branches merged, some tickets closed.
20:34 whiteknight :) Thanks for the recap, bacek
20:34 bacek plobsing++ did a great job ripping a lot of deprecated code
20:35 whiteknight yes he did. plobsing++ for the CodeString PMC deprecation
20:35 whiteknight Our goals for last week were vague, as I remember. Getting a few branches merged probably satisfies
20:36 Util bacek++ merged a GC branch, which was a goal for last week
20:36 Util GCI was another goal, and whiteknight++ made progress on that.
20:36 Util (see /topic)
20:37 cotto q2q
20:37 bacek (I have to run soon)
20:37 whiteknight okay. I think that covers the goals from last week. Does anybody have questions (I have several)
20:37 mikehh have we got out git release +bugfix release procedure nailed down properly - there were problems there?
20:37 plobsing q1q
20:37 whiteknight mikehh: yes, I think we have it pretty well
20:38 whiteknight Anybody else have questions to queue? Or should we start going down the list?
20:38 Util Ticket report: 40 closed, 18 new, 1 reopened
20:38 whiteknight 40 closed tickets is very good. Good job everybody
20:39 bacek for this week I would like my proposal of GenGC reviewed (carefully); Packfile PMCs design revamped; past_optimization merged.
20:39 bacek c u
20:39 whiteknight okay. We have one goal for the coming week.
20:39 whiteknight Questions. Cotto?
20:39 cotto bacek wants to merge gsoc_past_optimizations to get tcurtis++'s work back into master.  Any thoughts?
20:40 whiteknight Does it need eyes/testing?
20:40 cotto I think it's ready to merge.
20:40 whiteknight okay. +1 from me then
20:40 cotto same here
20:40 tcurtis It isn't.
20:40 whiteknight ....damnit
20:40 cotto tcurtis, dang
20:40 whiteknight tcurtis: what state is it in?
20:42 whiteknight cotto: second question (while we wait for tcurtis)?
20:43 tcurtis It's not up-to-date with https://github.com/ekiru/tree-optimization and in that up-to-date code there's a bug when supplying the :combine option to Tree::Optimizer.run. Other than that, I don't remember any other bugs. I'm planning to work on getting the parrot branch up-to-date this weekend so hopefully bugfixing and testing can occur.
20:43 cotto even if it's not perfect, getting it into master will give it more eyeballs
20:43 whiteknight maybe as a branch in parrot/parrot
20:44 cotto there's already a branch for gsoc_past_optimization
20:44 whiteknight oh, right. can we update that with the latest code?
20:44 plobsing we have a culture of pulling everything and anything into core. why do we *need* this in core at the current time? can't bacek rely on it as an additional dependancy?
20:44 mikehh that seemed to stall as tcurtis moved onto git with tree-optimization
20:45 whiteknight I think several people want to use it, and that it could become a pretty central part of the standard compiler infrastructure
20:45 whiteknight plobsing: but you're right, we have lots of stuff in core that could easily be ejected
20:46 cotto we should consider coming up with a policy of what belongs in core and what doesn't
20:46 * tcurtis has to go now.
20:46 tcurtis Bye, folks.
20:46 whiteknight tcurtis++
20:46 plobsing several people wanting to use it now (but for some reason not being able to do so) feels more like a failing of plumage than an argument to pull it into core
20:46 whiteknight cotto: good point. Anybody interested in drafting such a policy?
20:47 kid51 What exactly does "pulling it into core" mean?
20:47 whiteknight kid51: including new things in the parrot repository
20:47 cotto kid51, putting it into runtime/parrot/library
20:47 whiteknight as opposed to keeping it in a separate repository
20:47 kid51 Those are two different answers
20:47 mikehh we already have a problem with core as certain ops are now generated by nqp-rx etc and that is NOT part of core
20:47 kid51 Something can be in runtime/parrot/library and be in master
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20:48 whiteknight nqp-rx is developed externally and snapshots are included in the parrot repo.
20:48 whiteknight there are different degrees of inclusion
20:48 cotto whiteknight, I'll be thinking about what such a policy would look like.
20:49 whiteknight cotto++
20:49 whiteknight ok, cotto you had another question?
20:49 cotto Given that our long-term plan is to move away from a C-based PIR compiler to a self-hosted one (PIRATE), what do people think of removing pirc from the repo?
20:49 plobsing that was my question as well
20:49 whiteknight +1 from me. It's sad to see it go, but it isn't on the roadmap
20:50 NotFound +1
20:50 plobsing I'd like to see it extracted to a separate github project.
20:50 cotto I also hate to throw away work, but it's a sunk cost.
20:50 whiteknight plobsing: I agree, but I worry that it will just die there (as opposed to dieing where it is now)
20:50 whiteknight I still think PIRC could be made to work without too much effort, but that's a gamble
20:51 cotto we can create a tag before ripping it out so it'll be easier to move to a separate project if someone wants to
20:51 whiteknight maybe we export it first, before just deleting it
20:51 plobsing I'd like to see it work, but I think the basic assumptions about it's role are the same as IMCC, which is most of the problem in the first place.
20:52 whiteknight does it's removal require a deprecation cycle? I don't think so since it's never really been used
20:52 cotto whiteknight, what do you mean by "export"?
20:52 mikehh it was supposed to replace IMCC but ran into a bus number problem
20:52 whiteknight cotto: move it to it's own repo, as opposed to just deleting it
20:52 cotto whiteknight, it's not part of the external interface afaik
20:52 cotto wfm if we have a volunteer
20:53 whiteknight okay. no to deprecation then
20:53 plobsing me! me! pick me!
20:53 whiteknight ...plobsing?
20:53 whiteknight I choose you!
20:53 plobsing I'm volunteering to extract
20:53 Util I would think PIRC would be a help as a reference to PIRATE implementers
20:53 whiteknight you done gots volunteered
20:53 cotto Util, PIRATE is largely working apart from the fact that it can't do op maps.
20:54 plobsing q1q
20:54 whiteknight okay, cotto your questions are answered?
20:54 cotto plobsing, can you post to parrot-dev once you've extracted pirc?
20:54 cotto whiteknight, yes
20:55 whiteknight plobsing: question away
20:55 cotto I'm sure we'll have no trouble finding volunteers to rip it out.
20:55 plobsing can we deprecate PIR? by that I mean the assumption that a PIR compiler is always available in parrot?
20:55 whiteknight ah, I like that idea
20:56 whiteknight and it may become necessary as the embedding API progresses
20:56 whiteknight +1 from me
20:56 NotFound -1 for me while we don't have a replacement.
20:56 cotto plobsing, interesting idea.  It needs some fleshing out, but I like where you're going.
20:56 mikehh agree with NotFound
20:57 plobsing you'd still be able to get it if you wanted, you'd just need to load it. you don't get it "for free" anymore
20:57 plobsing and by it I mean "compreg 'PIR'"
20:57 whiteknight plobsing: can you open an RFC ticket on trac to keep the conversation alive?
20:57 plobsing sure
20:57 whiteknight plobsing++
20:57 NotFound plobsing: fine with that
20:57 cotto plobsing++
20:57 whiteknight okay, any other questions before I ask all mine?
20:58 whiteknight okay, lightning round
20:58 whiteknight 1) finalize opcode. (TT #1635) It's been experimental for several months. I suggest we make it official
20:58 NotFound +1
20:59 whiteknight it is the only defense we currently have against the inferior runloops problem. Entire swaths of Rakudo and other projects die without it
20:59 NotFound winxed has been using it all that time without any problem.
21:00 cotto +1
21:00 plobsing what happens to it when lorito hits?
21:00 whiteknight plobsing: at that point, all PIR ops are moot
21:00 NotFound plobsing: we can just redefine it as noop for a deprecation period.
21:00 whiteknight (but yes, the underlying inferior runloops problem goes away, theoretically)
21:01 cotto whiteknight, you might scare people with that attitude.  ;)
21:01 whiteknight :)
21:02 whiteknight okay, weak support. We'll discuss it elsewhere. Moving on
21:03 whiteknight 2) Parrot::Embed, I suggest we pull it out of the master repo and turn it into it's own project. parrot/Parrot-Embed on github maybe. I think it will get more exposure that way
21:03 plobsing +1
21:03 NotFound +1
21:04 cotto +1
21:04 NotFound But maybe we should wait until the embed/extend api matures a bit,
21:04 whiteknight I can agree with that
21:04 Util +1, if it returns to the main Parrot repo when it is done.
21:04 whiteknight Util: what do you mean?
21:04 whiteknight like in ext/?
21:05 Util The extend APIs and embed APIs should live with the main code. Wait, am I confused as to what Parrot::Embed is?
21:05 whiteknight Parrot::Embed is the Perl5 module
21:05 whiteknight to include parrot in Perl5
21:05 Util Doh!
21:05 whiteknight :)
21:05 Util +1
21:05 NotFound Parrot:Embed is for embedding parrot in Perl5 machine, isn'it?
21:06 cotto that's what the README says
21:06 whiteknight yes, it's a wonderful XS module
21:06 NotFound Sometimes we can't trust our READMEs ;)
21:07 whiteknight okay, that one passes. I'll ask one more question and save the rest for next week
21:07 whiteknight 3) find_codepoint PIR op. It's the replacement for some functionality originally found in Codestring. It's experimental, should probably be official. Vote to make it not experimental?
21:07 NotFound whiteknight: I think rakudo needs it.
21:07 whiteknight right
21:07 plobsing +1 # pge needs it
21:07 NotFound +1
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21:08 nwellnhof +1
21:09 nwellnhof but it requires icu, i think
21:09 whiteknight does it? We'll have to evaluate that then
21:09 cotto whiteknight, go on if you have more questions.  We're only 40 minutes in.
21:09 whiteknight okay, I can do this all day
21:09 NotFound nwellnhof: a lot of things requires ICU and aren't experimental.
21:09 plobsing the op is still defined without ICU, but it throws unconditionally
21:10 plobsing code will still compile, but won't work if you try to use Unicode without ICU. seems reasonable to me
21:10 darbelo Most of our unicode support is a 'throwing stub' without ICU.
21:10 whiteknight 4) PARROT_LIBRARY and PARROT_INCLUDE env vars. They are marked experimental, but they've been in for a few releases now
21:11 whiteknight do we continue to keep them supported, or do we not like them?
21:11 NotFound whiteknight: I think they can keep experimental.
21:11 plobsing they're crufty
21:11 whiteknight okay
21:11 darbelo Does anyone really use them?
21:12 NotFound darbelo: me, when expermienting.
21:12 darbelo Sounds experimental :)
21:12 whiteknight okay. We'll keep them as experimental for now, and bring it back up again later
21:13 whiteknight 5) OpenGL bindings. Do they belong in the master repo or should they be moved out to their own home?
21:13 NotFound People asked for "some way" to do something like that while command line fakecutables don't allow that functionality. There is a ticket about that.
21:13 NotFound The env vars, I mean.
21:13 mikehh there are problems there with long long
21:14 whiteknight NotFoundL if you can find that ticket, assign it to me
21:14 plobsing +1 to opengl being a separate project
21:14 NotFound whiteknight: I think is the one mentioned in DEPRECATED.pod
21:14 whiteknight Notfound: okay. I'll steal that one then
21:14 Util I will look into PARROT_LIBRARY and PARROT_INCLUDE working-or-not in fakecutables.
21:14 whiteknight Util++
21:14 mikehh there are quite a few bits that belong in plumage - BTW what's happening there
21:15 NotFound Util: no, the problem was not having the command line options that parrot main has.
21:15 NotFound The env vars are a workaround for that.
21:16 cotto what is the status of plumage?
21:16 whiteknight probably needs love
21:16 plobsing I have an alternative idea to solve the fakecutable arguments problem. I'll throw up an RFC
21:16 NotFound cotto: it worked fine last times I chekced.
21:16 whiteknight plobsing++ Great idea
21:16 Util Ah! I recommend shell scripts in place of the fakecutable for that situation.
21:17 whiteknight we probably need to get smolder reports working for plumage, then we can keep better track of it
21:17 cotto +1
21:17 mikehh 1
21:17 whiteknight any other opinions on OpenGL moving out, or do we shelve that till later?
21:18 NotFound cotto: I've been able to install winxed and blizkost from plumage and using Perl Gtk module from winxed. Not bad.
21:18 cotto NotFound, that's a good sign
21:19 whiteknight ...okay, I'll hold all the rest of my questions for next week. Let's move on to goals for this week
21:20 whiteknight bacek wants people to read his new proposal for Generational GC. I suggest everybody read it, even if they don't think they will like it or understand it
21:20 plobsing where is it?
21:20 whiteknight It's on his branch somewhere. I'll post a link to the list
21:21 cotto I'll at least read that, if not try to give his code some review.
21:21 whiteknight The New York Times calls it "enthralling"
21:22 cotto https://github.com/parrot/parrot/bl​ob/generational_gc/src/gc/gc_ms2.c <-this one?
21:22 whiteknight yes, that looks like it
21:24 whiteknight any other goals this week besides gsoc_past_optimizations and generational_gc?
21:25 whiteknight okeydokey then
21:25 mikehh GCI?
21:25 cotto packfile work
21:26 whiteknight ah yes, GCI is a good goal. We have a lot of tasks in there now, but we need a hell of a lot more
21:26 whiteknight if we don't put out enough tasks, we won't be able to adequately take advantage of all that slave labor
21:27 whiteknight cotto: is packfile stuff something we are going to do this week?
21:28 whiteknight or are we just planning it this week?
21:28 NotFound I have a goal: people that asked for Parrot_getpid, please do some testing and report.
21:28 whiteknight :)
21:29 whiteknight okay, I have to run now and it looks like we're losing steam. Call it a wrap?
21:29 NotFound +1
21:29 cotto yes
21:29 whiteknight gsoc_past_optimizations, generational_gc, GCI, and maybe packfile stuff are goals for this week.
21:30 mikehh anything on the summit?
21:30 whiteknight mikehh: We'll send out more emails (no responses to the last one)
21:31 * mikehh seems to have lost track of the emails
21:31 whiteknight don't worry, there will be more
21:31 whiteknight MANY MANY MORE
21:32 whiteknight okay, I'm out. Good meeting everybody
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21:42 Topic for #parrotsketch is now Priorities for this week: gsoc_past_optimizations, generational_gc, packfile, Google Code-In  | Don't forget to post closed tickets in your report. | Note: This channel is only for our Tuesday status meetings (at 20:30 UTC); you probably want #parrot instead. | irclog: http://irc.pugscode.org/
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