Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2010-12-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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15:33 * dukeleto is on vacation and won't be at #ps today
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15:53 * lucian too
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17:21 cotto_work2 is now known as cotto_work
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17:57 NotFound Last week I didn't do a report, this one is for two weeks.
17:57 NotFound What I did:
17:57 NotFound -parrot
17:57 NotFound * merge mappedbytearray branch
17:57 NotFound * move Parrot_io_parse_open_flags from io/filehandle.c to io/api.c
17:57 NotFound * add init_int vtable to Exception PMC
17:57 NotFound * minor fixes
17:57 NotFound * add some tests
17:57 NotFound -winxed
17:57 NotFound * Put stage 0 up to date with changes in encoding
17:57 NotFound * Fix problems reported from GCI tasks
17:57 NotFound * Fix post inc and dec operator in void context in stage 1
17:57 NotFound * Several minor fixes, refactors and nano optimizations
17:57 NotFound * Experiments with class creation on the fly and JS-alike method search
17:57 NotFound What I will do:
17:57 NotFound No fixed plan
17:57 NotFound EOR
18:00 mikehh What I did since my last report:
18:00 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
18:00 mikehh * some fixes
18:00 mikehh * testing Rakudo and Winxed on latest parrot
18:00 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
18:00 mikehh * testing and fixing
18:00 mikehh .eor
19:25 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
19:30 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
19:30 whiteknight * More work on embed_api branch. Lots of fixes. Help from kid51++, Coke++, and bluescreen++ We've identified and fixed several problems and test failures. Only remaining failures that I see now are in codestd tests
19:30 whiteknight * Blogging. Talking about Lorito and starting a series about "GC for Newbies" to explain the concepts to an audience unfamiliar with them.
19:30 whiteknight * Started a new project, Parrot# ("ParrotSharp"), which is going to wrap the new embedding API for use in .NET/Mono applications. Work moving very slowly
19:30 whiteknight * Working on GCI, trying to keep up with students
19:30 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
19:30 whiteknight * Trying to get embed_api2 passing all tests
19:30 whiteknight * When it's passing tests, I want to update it to master again. There are going to be some conflicts
19:30 whiteknight * Would like to prepare a merger for shortly after 2.11
19:30 whiteknight * Need to send some mails to the list about the coming release.
19:30 whiteknight BLOCKING ON:
19:30 whiteknight * Nothing
19:32 cotto_work *did:
19:32 cotto_work - met with allison, chromatic and dukeleto to figure out a direction for Lorito
19:32 cotto_work - rough notes at https://gist.github.com/740858
19:32 cotto_work - approved/reviewed some gci tasks
19:32 cotto_work *will do:
19:32 cotto_work - more gci review/approval
19:32 cotto_work - write out more well-formed thoughts on Lorito
19:32 cotto_work *blockers:
19:32 cotto_work - none
19:32 cotto_work *eor
19:32 cotto_work q2q
19:56 chromatic joined #parrotsketch
20:15 Coke I tried to compile embed_api2 and complained a bit. EOR.
20:17 tcurtis joined #parrotsketch
20:19 chromatic I pushed a new Lorito branch just after dukeleto did.
20:29 Util # 7-day Ticket Report:
20:29 Util 2 closed: fixed
20:29 Util 2 closed: invalid
20:29 Util 9 new
20:29 Util 2 reopened
20:29 Util # Done:
20:29 Util * No pure-Parrot work this week.
20:29 Util # Plan to do:
20:29 Util * Pbc_to_exe work.
20:29 Util # Blockers
20:29 Util * masak++ 5-problem Perl 6 contest <<< tuits
20:29 Util .end
20:31 cotto_work hello
20:31 mikehh hi there
20:31 Util Hello
20:32 NotFound Hola
20:32 chromatic hello
20:34 chromatic How'd we do with last week's goals?
20:34 tcurtis Hi.
20:35 NotFound About MBA: increased coverage a little, no demo AFAIK
20:36 chromatic Any other particular goals?
20:36 chromatic I've seen a lot of embedding API work and some Lorito branch work.
20:36 chromatic Any status on those?
20:37 NotFound embdding is in whiteknight report
20:37 chromatic What's the status of the GSOC branches, any progress there?
20:38 cotto_work nothing on my end (gsoc_instrument)
20:38 plobsing joined #parrotsketch
20:38 chromatic Let's talk about next week then.
20:38 chromatic Our release is next Tuesday, correct?
20:40 cotto_work yes, with whiteknight as the release manager
20:40 whiteknight and it's going to be a good one
20:40 chromatic Anything we should concentrate on before then?
20:40 NotFound Releases dates are no more on google calendar?
20:40 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
20:40 whiteknight I think we should focus on tickets and DEPRECATED.pod
20:41 whiteknight lots of gold to be mined there, I think
20:41 mikehh how about html_cleanup for inclusion
20:41 whiteknight ah yes, that's a good one
20:41 NotFound whiteknight: some is already mined
20:41 whiteknight NotFound: yes. It's still something good to work on before the release
20:42 NotFound Agreed
20:42 * kid51 joins late.  Report:  Merged tt532_headerizer_refactor.  Did testing for whiteknight of embed_api2 on Darwin and Linux.  EOR
20:42 Coke (google calendar) I only put them so far out the last time i entered them.
20:42 * kid51 signed PaFo documents; mailed them yesterday
20:44 chromatic Shall we say "Remove deprecations | close tickets | merge html_cleanup and embed_api"?
20:46 NotFound +1
20:46 mikehh +1
20:47 whiteknight embed_api2 might not merge till after the release
20:47 whiteknight still have lots of docs and tests to write
20:47 whiteknight but otherwise, +1
20:47 chromatic Let's keep it as a goal.
20:47 whiteknight alrighty then
20:48 chromatic Done.
20:48 chromatic Are there any questions?
20:48 NotFound cotto_work queued 2
20:48 chromatic Just saw.  cotto_work?
20:48 cotto_work While most gci contributions have been numous and of high quality, we've had some low-quality README translations.  Does anyone who has experience with non-native English speakers (or who is one) know whether native-language READMEs will make people more likely to contribute to Parrot?
20:49 cotto_work i.e. Do we want to continue to solicit README translations?
20:49 NotFound In the Spanish case, I don't think so.
20:50 NotFound Most Spanish able to contribute will use translations only for laugh at the errors or erratas.
20:50 mikehh also where should we put translations in  the docs/html etc
20:51 kid51 mikehh: Why not in the same directory as README?
20:51 NotFound (in some cases, to endlessly discuss the more appropiate translation for any thecnical term)
20:52 NotFound (just look for librería/biblioteca in Spanish programming forum)
20:52 kid51 NotFound: My impression is that attitudes on this question differ both among different non-English languages and different speakers of a given non-English language.
20:52 mikehh could be, but what about any other translations
20:53 NotFound kid51: most probably, Spanish people (specialy in Spain) are peculiar in this matter.
20:53 allison joined #parrotsketch
20:54 kid51 I think we can steer a middle path.
20:54 chromatic Could we make a blanket policy about the translation of technical terms, such as "always prefer the English term"?
20:54 kid51 chromatic: That will get you into trouble in France :-)
20:55 chromatic You can put me on record as not caring about the French Academy.
20:55 kid51 dukeleto  suggested plunking down READMEs in branches for now
20:55 NotFound (not me, I talk like native americans in bad old westerns and I don't care)
20:56 whiteknight you mean Italians badly acting like native americans in bad old westerns
20:56 kid51 but, in any event, I think that unless we actually put some non-Anglo READMEs up on github somewhere, we won't get enough feedback to know what the best policy is
20:56 chromatic I agree with kid51.
20:56 kid51 We can add a request for patches to the translation at the bottom of each non-Anglo README.
20:56 NotFound whiteknight: no, even older westerns. Sergio Leone ones are more recent and are great!
20:57 whiteknight :)
20:58 cotto_work kid51: good idea.  Let's go with that.
20:58 cotto_work what about accepting future README translations?
20:58 kid51 If one of us thinks a *particular* translation is bad, we won't put it up.  But if a reviewer says that a given translation is somewhat workable, let's post it.
20:59 whiteknight maybe we need a /translations/drafts/ folder to hold drafts of translations of things
20:59 Coke whiteknight: just use the wiki
20:59 kid51 whiteknight: Not a bad idea
20:59 whiteknight anything that hasn't passed muster from a native speaker is a draft and we use that as a hook to ellicit more contributions
20:59 kid51 whiteknight++
20:59 chromatic How do we know which native speaker to trust?
20:59 Coke (I also don't particularly want the top level to have 50 README.*'s)
21:00 kid51 Colleagues at $job is good starting point.
21:00 kid51 leverage people we know in worldwide Perl 5 et al communities
21:01 kid51 Even if, say, Parrot has no expert developers in Brazil, we certainly know Perl 5 people there.
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21:01 whiteknight if we end up with a really lousy translation of something, we'll find out when somebody comes to us and says "this translation is really lousy"
21:01 whiteknight we have to trust the translator until somebody complains
21:02 kid51 I could get feedback on a dozen languages just by walking around the office.
21:02 whiteknight and then we ask the complainer to submit a patch
21:02 kid51 Not expert, but workable feedback.
21:02 mikehh we have various devs who speak languages other than english, they shoulkd look
21:03 NotFound mikehh: I don't feel good about asking for translations when I already know I'm going to reject them.
21:04 NotFound With 99.9% confidence.
21:04 kid51 NotFound: Then take yourself out of that loop.  We can have other people review Spanish.
21:06 chromatic Any other discussion on this topic?
21:06 kid51 Not from me.
21:07 chromatic cotto_work, other questions?
21:07 bluescreen_ left #parrotsketch
21:07 cotto_work Does anyone have burning questions about the Lorito braindump that I should be sure to address?
21:07 plobsing q1q
21:08 mikehh q1q
21:08 chromatic I suppose then... plobsing?
21:08 kid51 cotto_work: I don't want you to dumb-down your report on the braindump, but to the extent possible, make it accessible
21:08 cotto_work kid51: ok.
21:08 kid51 (meaning ... I have no clue as to what's going on there) ;-)
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21:09 cotto_work for reference, do you think anything I've posted so far has been dumbed-down or is it appropriately dumb already. ;)
21:09 plobsing I've marked complex as deprecated. anyone object to this?
21:09 cotto_work q1q
21:09 kid51 no, it's just that whiteknight's posts had my brain spinning ... out of my league, I guess
21:09 mikehh plobsing: why would you want to do that?
21:10 cotto_work ok.  If something's hard to grok, just post a comment and I'll clarify.
21:10 whiteknight kid51: Yeah, that post was off-the-cuff and high-level. I'll make it more accessible
21:10 cotto_work If anyone else has question, just post in #parrot with my nick.  I'll make sure to find it.
21:10 cotto_work eoq
21:10 plobsing mikehh: it doesn't get any love and it is full of bugs
21:10 kid51 plobsing: What would be the replacement if that were removed?
21:11 mikehh plobsing: then it needs to have someone review it
21:11 plobsing replacement: cook it up yourself (rakudo already does)
21:11 plobsing anyone who cares enough about complex to build it for their own purposes stands a much better chance of doing it right
21:12 plobsing or at least less wrong than us (that's a pretty low bar)
21:12 mikehh then we should incorporate the rakudo solution
21:12 cotto_work I think the point is that it's not useful as it stands and that it doesn't really belong in core.
21:12 whiteknight I'm happy to start a new project to hold Complex, and to maintain it
21:13 mikehh whiteknight: +1
21:13 whiteknight PLA depends on Complex, so either I can merge it into there or start it as a new project and use it as a dependency
21:14 cotto_work That sounds like an acceptable solution to me.  Any objections to doing that after a deprecation cycle?
21:14 chromatic We can deprecate it and see who yells.
21:14 whiteknight +1
21:14 mikehh so how do you handle those bugs
21:14 whiteknight what bugs?
21:14 Coke ... correct order is to copy it /first/, then deprecate the in-place version.
21:14 mikehh in PLA I mean
21:15 whiteknight mikehh: I don't know, it will be a learning experience
21:15 cotto_work Coke: I think that's what's being suggested.  if not, it should be.
21:17 chromatic Any other questions about Complex?
21:17 whiteknight yes, that's what I'll do. After embed_api2 is fixed and merged I will start a copy
21:17 cotto_work whiteknight: can you say as much in the ticket (http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1892 )?
21:18 whiteknight yessir
21:18 chromatic mikehh, question?
21:20 mikehh what are we going to do about aloha - it's MIA as is bacek
21:20 whiteknight we're talking about that in #parrot right now
21:20 kid51 dare I say:  bring back purl?
21:21 sorear +1
21:21 plobsing +1 # <3 purl
21:21 mikehh we kicked purl and aloha was supposed to be the replacement
21:21 whiteknight it appears to be easy enough to run our own copy of Aloha. We just need to set it up on feather or somewhere else
21:21 chromatic My preference is migrating aloha.
21:21 whiteknight +1
21:21 cotto_work +1
21:21 Coke aloha++
21:22 cotto_work feather is nice because anyone with access can fiddle as needed
21:22 whiteknight right, I like that
21:22 mikehh I think bacek has the code on github
21:22 whiteknight so let's try to get that set up this week
21:22 cotto_work any volunteers?
21:24 whiteknight I don't know if I have a feather account, but I can take a stab at it
21:26 chromatic cotto_work, do you have another question?
21:26 cotto_work I'd like to start a push to get packfiles PMCs working again and to increase the bus number on that code.  Any volunteers to help with that?
21:27 cotto_work I blogged about plobsing's changes, so the barrier to entry shouldn't be too high.
21:27 chromatic I can take a look after this week.
21:28 cotto_work thanks.  Any other volunteers are welcome too.  It's an important bit of code on the way to Lorito.
21:28 cotto_work eoq
21:28 whiteknight I definitely want to get involved in that
21:28 * whiteknight has to leave now. Just volunteer me for everything else that gets asked about :)
21:28 chromatic Any other questions?
21:28 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
21:31 chromatic Let's call it a week then.  Release next week!
21:32 cotto_work um.... go team!\
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