Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-01-04

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17:52 kid51 kid51's report
17:53 kid51 DONE
17:53 kid51 * Created http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1908, implemented 'make moretests', closed ticket.
17:53 kid51 * Created http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1900, change names of cover targets.
17:53 kid51 * Closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1897, implement 'silent' configuration, with assistance from GCIer.
17:54 kid51 * Took http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1925, delete config step auto::jit; hope it will get picked up by GCIer.
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17:54 kid51 * Created http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1922, review 'make help'; ticket has been claimed by GCIer, but I haven't heard anything yet.
17:54 kid51 * Did more thinking about http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/855, profiling options.
17:54 kid51 * Worked on http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1927, spaces in directory names; have now been assigned this ticket and hope to merge into master soon.
17:54 kid51 * Wrote two blogposts on roadmaps and teams:  http://parrot.org/content/roadmaps-and-teams http://parrot.org/content/roadmaps-and-teams-part-two
17:54 kid51 * In preparation for next Summit (sometime in weekend of Jan 29/30), began to follow up on action items from previous summit (http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.parrot.devel/4948).
17:54 kid51 * Posted final version of minutes from 2010 Parrot Foundation members' meeting.
17:55 kid51 TO BE DONE
17:55 kid51 * We need to decide exactly when during the weekend of Jan 29/20 we will hold our next PDS.
17:55 kid51 * I will do more follow up on action items leading into that summit, i.e., expect more email from me about that.
17:55 kid51 * By next Tuesday's #parrotsketch, GCI will be closed, so we should give public recognition to our student participants and mentors.
17:55 kid51 * Will post to list thoughts on coverage targets; short-version: Recommend pulling them out of Makefile.
17:55 kid51 EOR
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20:14 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:14 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:14 mikehh * quite a lot of fixes, especially related to GCI
20:14 mikehh * sorted out some build failures and removed some warnings
20:14 mikehh * html_cleanup branch, mergerd in latest origin/master (having a problem trying to merge master)
20:14 mikehh *   did not have as much time as I wanted to devote to the branch (spent a lot of time on master)
20:14 mikehh *   working on generating index/header pages, still some work to do there, the rest ok,
20:14 mikehh *   all the referenced pages are generated ok
20:14 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:14 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:14 mikehh * hopefully complete the index/header pages in html_cleanup
20:14 mikehh .eor
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20:19 Coke DID - slight improvement to c2str.pl's execution time.
20:20 Coke flailing about at other build/runtime speed improvements. (Hey, where's chromatic? ;)
20:20 Coke .eor
20:20 Util # Done:
20:20 Util * Made first cut of Rakudo Star OS X .dmg binary
20:20 Util = http://s3.datasaw.com/Rakudo_Star_2010-12_experiment_2.dmg
20:20 Util = Should also work as a Parrot binary
20:20 Util # Plan to do:
20:20 Util * Heal
20:20 Util # Blockers:
20:20 Util * Cold and flu season
20:20 Util # 7-day ticket report:
20:20 Util 1  closed: done
20:20 Util 2  closed: duplicate
20:20 Util 17  closed: fixed
20:20 Util 1  closed: invalid
20:21 Util 1  closed: worksforme
20:21 Util 27  new
20:21 Util 2  reopened
20:21 Util .end
20:23 cotto_work *did:
20:23 cotto_work - keep up with gci
20:23 cotto_work - made a few new tasks
20:23 cotto_work - deputized atrodo to help deal with the flood
20:23 cotto_work - Monday is the last day of gci
20:23 cotto_work - started digging into nqp-rx/nom
20:23 cotto_work - it's ... unusual
20:23 cotto_work *will do:
20:23 cotto_work - finish up gci
20:23 cotto_work - nom writeup
20:23 cotto_work *blockers:
20:23 cotto_work - none
20:23 cotto_work *eor
20:23 tcurtis Did: nothing. Will do: hopefully work on tree-optimizations. Blockers: school/etc.
20:24 cotto_work Hmm.  report got cut off some
20:24 cotto_work *did:
20:24 cotto_work - keep up with gci
20:24 cotto_work - made a few new tasks
20:24 cotto_work - deputized atrodo to help deal with the flood
20:24 cotto_work - Monday is the last day of gci
20:25 cotto_work - dukeleto++ for crazy task creation
20:25 cotto_work - whiteknight++ for helping with tasks
20:25 cotto_work - lots of code review
20:25 cotto_work - coke++ for speeding up str2c
20:26 cotto_work - started digging into nqp-rx/nom
20:26 cotto_work - it's ... unusual
20:26 cotto_work *will do:
20:26 cotto_work - finish up gci
20:26 cotto_work - nom writeup
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20:26 cotto_work *blockers:
20:26 cotto_work - none
20:26 cotto_work *eor
20:27 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
20:27 whiteknight * Working on GCI
20:27 whiteknight * Trying to fix the Win64 situation, which apparently is sort of broken and undertested
20:27 whiteknight * Miscellaneous fixes, reviewing code, etc
20:27 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
20:27 whiteknight * Cleaning, testing, bugfixing. 3.0 is on the horizon.
20:27 whiteknight * Directors have a phone meeting next week, so I'm preparing for that
20:27 whiteknight * We're supposed to have a January PDS at the end of this month, so preparing for that
20:27 whiteknight WHAT I AM BLOCKING ON:
20:27 whiteknight * My laptop is still broken
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20:28 tadzik can I sit in a corner and listen? :)
20:29 nwellnhof what i did:
20:29 nwellnhof - merge unicode_io
20:29 nwellnhof plans:
20:29 mikehh tadzik: there's nothing to stop you joining in
20:30 nwellnhof - more work on io and encodings, see TT #1863 and branch nwellnhof/read_chars
20:30 nwellnhof .eor
20:30 kid51 tadzik: Post a report on anything you've done re Parrot in last week (or two)
20:30 tadzik well, I can say what I did about cardinal
20:30 kid51 2030 has arrived; who will chair?
20:31 cotto_work hello
20:31 * cotto_work has a chair
20:31 mikehh hi there
20:32 tadzik so, I was to move it to nqp-rx, discussed on #parrot and decided to make it run properly first. Made it compile and run simple things, the thing which stops me from contunuing is posted to parrot-dev and to the GH issues. That'd be all
20:32 Util Hello
20:32 whiteknight hello
20:32 tcurtis Hi.
20:33 cotto_work How'd we do on last week's goals?
20:33 kid51 1. More gci tasks:  Achieved.
20:33 kid51 2. merge html_cleanup:  mikehh?
20:34 kid51 3. Get plumage working?  I saw that it was moved to github, but beyond that I didn't see anything.
20:34 whiteknight no movement on plumage
20:34 mikehh hopefully in the next couple of days
20:34 kid51 4. Review current embedding API:  bluescreen? whiteknight?
20:34 whiteknight I made a ticket and some recommendations about the old embedding API
20:34 kid51 5. Study EventHandler: (probably 0)
20:34 whiteknight the new embedding api has increased it's test coverage
20:34 kid51 6. Run examples_tests before merges:  This is now feasible with 'make moretests'
20:34 whiteknight no movement on eventhandler
20:35 kid51 END_OF_QUICK_VERSION
20:36 cotto_work mikehh: we've been trying to merge html_cleanup for a while.  What will it take to get it merged today or tomorrow?
20:36 kid51 Personally, last week I was thinking that 6 goals was way too many ... but it turned out that we touched all but 1 of them and did a lot on 3 of them
20:37 cotto_work It's a good task, but nothing's been happening for too long.
20:38 cotto_work mikehh?
20:38 mikehh cotto_work: sortin' out the index/header page generation, got some ideas - the .json files are there, just needs to push through Parrot::Docs::HTMLPage.pm
20:39 mikehh everything else works fine, all the referenced pages are generated
20:39 mikehh passes all tests etc.
20:39 kid51 Is any part of this delegateable?
20:42 kid51 perhaps we should move on?
20:42 cotto_work sure
20:42 mikehh if anyone has the tuits, I think the tools/docs/make_html_doc.pl does most of it already, just needs to generate the index pages from the json stuff
20:42 cotto_work ok.  If anyone has tuits, please take a look at that.
20:44 cotto_work Does someone have tuits to study EventHandler?  That didn't get done last week.
20:44 whiteknight I'll do it, just didn't have time this last week
20:44 whiteknight we don't need to mark that as a goal, it's low-priority
20:45 cotto_work ok
20:45 kid51 Good.
20:45 cotto_work any questions or points for discussion?
20:46 kid51 Who is the point person for "get Plumage working"?
20:46 cotto_work kid51: there wasn't one
20:46 whiteknight i did suggest it
20:46 whiteknight I can take on that role
20:47 cotto_work excellent
20:47 mikehh I think NotFound said it was working, just did not have time to try it out last week
20:47 kid51 whiteknight: At the risk of doubting your capabilities ... how many roles can you take on at once?
20:47 whiteknight bajillion
20:48 kid51 ok.
20:48 whiteknight plumage is working, I believe. I want to add it to smolder so we can keep it that way
20:48 whiteknight so it shouldn't be a huge task
20:49 kid51 Will that be of benefit to the "Test HLLs before doing branch merges" part of last week's Goal #6 (where we got burned yesterday re Rakudo)?
20:50 cotto_work If we can automatically and easily smoke test languages with plumage before merging, it'll do a lot to help HLL stability.
20:50 kid51 k
20:50 nwellnhof but we have to test HLLs against new branches, not against master.
20:51 cotto_work nwellnhof: yes.  We can install Parrot built from a branch and use plumage on to test how HLLs work with it.
20:52 mikehh one of the problems with rakudo, for example, is that it take ages to build and run the test suite - close to an hour on a 4core system
20:52 nwellnhof if it's all automatic, how do we tell which branches to test
20:54 Coke make a web service that lists branches ready-to-be-tested?
20:54 Coke (or a wiki page on github)
20:54 pmichaud 20:52 <mikehh> one of the problems with rakudo, for example, is that it take ages to build and run the test suite - close to an hour on a 4core system
20:54 pmichaud this group can help a lot with that :-)
20:55 mikehh pmichaud: hi, yes
20:56 cotto_work nwellnhof: I was talking about automated local testing, i.e. install a Parrot build from branch and run a simple command to test a bunch of HLLs with it.
20:56 nwellnhof pmichaud: the problem with make spectest is mostly Rakudo's startup time. that's not entirely Parrot's fault.
20:56 pmichaud nwellnhof: it would help if we had a better serialization mechanism
20:56 cotto_work both can be optimized
20:57 whiteknight yes, I was about to say that. If Parrot provided better serialization stuff, we could help Rakudo improve startup time
20:57 pmichaud right now parrot's lack of serialization forces us to do all built-in initialization at startup (runtime) instead of compile-time.
20:57 whiteknight that's the end-goal of many of these packfile cleanups/refactors that plobsing has been working on
20:57 cotto_work q1q
20:58 kid51 pmichaud: Short of running Rakudo's 'make spectest', is there any quick-er way to see whether a given branch is going to harm Rakudo?
20:58 mikehh q1q
20:58 pmichaud kid51: in some sense that's the wrong question (more)
20:58 pmichaud the latest breakages cause problems with *nqp* too
20:58 pmichaud so it's not entirely a problem with rakudo's spectest time
20:59 pmichaud since running an nqp test takes <1 minute
20:59 pmichaud in other words, one could've found the latest parrot problems much quicker than an hour
20:59 mikehh so we should include nqp tests in our test suite
20:59 pmichaud so saying "we don't test because rakudo's spectest takes so long" is a bit misleading, imo
20:59 kid51 What does one need to do to run that NQP test?  Is it part of Parrot or part of Rakudo?
20:59 pmichaud nqp is its own repo
21:00 pmichaud it's just another hll on parrot
21:00 pmichaud (and a much smaller/easier to test one)
21:00 cotto_work nqp-rx's tests are pretty quick.
21:00 cotto_work maybe a minute
21:00 mikehh but we don't run them at the moment
21:00 kid51 Could someone wrap that in a perl 5 script such that, say, I could run it after 'make moretests'?
21:00 Coke if we're shipping nqp-rx, we really should test it a lot.
21:00 mikehh they are in plumage of course
21:01 Coke perhaps this would be a good time to switch nqp-rx over to a git subproject.
21:01 pmichaud Coke: well, there's a difference (perhaps big) between testing the nqp that is stored with parrot, versus building nqp from its own sources
21:01 mikehh used them when working on pir/pirate
21:02 Coke pmichaud: are we even doing the first, though?
21:02 pmichaud I think that nqp should be treated just like any other hll that parrot wants to test
21:02 cotto_work +1
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21:02 Coke (and if we included it as a subproject, I assume we'd use that to say "ok, /this/ is the version we want" and having it be a reference instead of a copy.
21:02 pmichaud if someone wants us to copy nqp's tests into the parrot repo along with its pir source, we can do that.
21:02 cotto_work It'd also be a good first HLL because it's relatively small and quick to test.
21:03 mikehh hang on, we use nqp-rx in parrot a lot now - so we should have the tests there
21:03 whiteknight nqp-rx is an ext/ thing, it's developed externally
21:03 pmichaud mikehh: yes, but I think I'm saying that just because nqp-rx's tests pass with the parrot-stored nqp doesn't mean that one would be able to build nqp
21:03 whiteknight so the tests are external
21:03 cotto_work mikehh: We do need to be *testing* nqp-rd regularly.  I'd prefer that we do so through plumage.
21:04 pmichaud and being able to build+run nqp (as a separate hll) is really what hll devels (such as rakudo devs) will want
21:04 Coke 'sfine with me.
21:04 pmichaud i.e., we want to know that we can build+run hlls on parrot, not just that an existing hll runs
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21:04 mikehh it's going to be one of the first things we build in plumage, so yes
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21:06 cotto_work Is this resolved?  It sounds like the best solution is to keep nqp-rx's test external but to make sure they're run frequently, and that plumage is a good mechanism to accomplish that.
21:07 mikehh +1
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21:08 pmichaud I'm not sure it's resolved (more)
21:08 pmichaud somehow I think the underlying issue is we need good mechanisms for testing hlls before committing significant changes
21:08 pmichaud (and they need to be used)
21:08 cotto_work agreed
21:09 whiteknight I think we get into a tarpit here, arguing over what constitutes a "big" change, and what all HLLs we need to test beforehand
21:09 pmichaud but I don't have any suggestions for improving that
21:09 whiteknight and then whether it's only HLLs, or all ecosystem projects
21:10 whiteknight NQP-RX obviously does need to be high on the list
21:10 plobsing pmichaud: for the record, I *did* test nqp-rx (among other HLLs) before merging and attempted to fix the problems, but being unfamiliar with it was unable to. I posted to the list requesting assistance, but seeing as other languages worked well with trivial fixes, did not see it as a blocker for merging
21:10 whiteknight Rakudo too. It would be very nice if we had some tool to calculate tests that are impacted by code changes beforehand
21:11 kid51 Let's approach this incrementally.
21:11 pmichaud plobsing: noted
21:11 kid51 Let's first get a way to asses the impact of branches on NQP*.
21:11 kid51 Worry about other HLLs only thereafter.
21:11 cotto_work kid51: I agree.  Let's get started and build on that once it's ready.
21:12 cotto_work further comments?
21:13 cotto_work question time then
21:14 cotto_work I made two gci tasks to take 100 lines off the monstrous 400 line fill_params function in src/call/args.c by factoring out self-contained blocks.  Does this sound reasonable to anyone who's worked on the code?
21:14 mikehh we just need to make it easy to test a branch on plumage
21:14 nwellnhof cotto: i don't think that's GCI material
21:15 cotto_work nwellnhof: care to expand on that thought?
21:15 nwellnhof you simply need some experience with Parrot's internals before you can hack on that code
21:16 cotto_work even just to break code into separate functions?
21:17 chromatic Extracting out reasonable pieces into static functions is very good, and a moderately difficult project.
21:17 nwellnhof cotto: maybe, but breaking code into separate functions doesn't make automatically better to understand.
21:18 cotto_work If the functions have descriptive names and are fairly self-contained, I'd disagree.
21:18 nwellnhof and there's a chance that it will make the code slower which is something we can't afford for fill_params.
21:20 cotto_work Right, but that's what compilers are for.  static functions like that can easily be inlined by the compiler.
21:20 pmichaud presumably that could be tested in a branch (speed)
21:20 whiteknight I broke out a piece of that code yesterday evening, but I purposefully picked a branch of code that I knew to be cold
21:20 whiteknight we can't afford PCC to get any slower. That code needs to be handled with kid glvoes
21:21 nwellnhof i don't think that moving code that is used just once to static functions always makes for more readable code.
21:21 whiteknight I actually have some thoughts about that code that I need to expand on, but I sincerely don't think it's right for GCI
21:21 chromatic If we extracted out smaller functions, we could eliminate the indirection required to handle va_list/context arguments.
21:22 cotto_work whiteknight: ok.  I'll remove the task.  It does sound like it'd be a bit much for a gci student.
21:22 whiteknight I'm thinking that we try to break that up into several functions initially, then create multiple copies to pull conditionals out of tight loops
21:22 plobsing chromatic: is there evidence that that indirection is costing us much? I've seen cases where indirection removal gained essentially nothing.
21:22 cotto_work unpublished
21:23 chromatic Given that that indirection means at least one function pointer invocation to access an array element for each argument/parameter, I believe so.
21:25 pmichaud (sorry, I had one further comment on the branch merge, which is that both nqp and rakudo are not working even after re-enabling implicit :main)
21:25 pmichaud (just wanted to make sure that was noticed)
21:26 plobsing pmichaud: ouch. did not know it was still broken.
21:26 * whiteknight has to leave now. Will backscroll
21:26 pmichaud (also, I just checked, and even rakudo's "make test" fails)
21:26 plobsing q1q
21:26 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
21:26 pmichaud (i.e., one could find the failure with rakudo much faster than doing a full "make spectest")
21:27 pmichaud plobsing: TT #1932
21:27 kid51 was mikehh next question?
21:27 cotto_work yes
21:27 pmichaud (I'm done)
21:28 cotto_work mikehh: go ahead
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21:31 cotto_work plobsing: go ahead
21:31 mikehh I noticed that two python progs were added to tools/dev, what about coding standards, like copyright etc
21:32 plobsing the deprecation steps were followed for TT #1704, the code for which has since been rolled back
21:32 plobsing what happens now?
21:32 plobsing do we put it back to its previous deprecation state? do we reject the deprecation and remove all references?
21:33 plobsing do we leave it in its current inconsistent state?
21:34 kid51 mikehh: Recommend pushing that codingstd discussion into Trac.
21:35 cotto_work We need to understand and address the issues it caused and why the :main sub has to be dynamic in some cases.  pmichaud mentioned his reasoning and use cases yesterday iirc.  That should be added to the ticket.
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21:36 pmichaud some modules are meant to be included as part of larger programs, and thus should not have :main.  Some modules are meant to be standalone, and thus would need :main if it's mandatory.  Some modules can be run both standalone and as part of a larger program.
21:36 mikehh kid51: ticket?
21:38 pmichaud we can move this discussion to #parrot so that #parrotsketch can proceed
21:39 kid51 mikehh: Yes, please open a ticket so I can look at it when i get home.
21:39 mikehh kid51: 'k
21:40 cotto_work pmichaud: thanks.
21:40 kid51 Are there any more questions?
21:41 cotto_work If not, here are the goals I have:
21:42 cotto_work GOAL 1: keep up with gci (ends on the 10th) (everyone)
21:42 cotto_work GOAL 2: get plumage working (whiteknight)
21:42 cotto_work any others I missed?
21:44 kid51 Get Rakudo working (I really think this should be #1)
21:45 cotto_work the goals aren't ordered by importance, but that's a big one
21:45 kid51 3.0 is 2 weeks away
21:45 cotto_work GOAL 3: get Rakudo working again
21:46 kid51 Enough, IMHO
21:47 cotto_work That's a wrap, then.
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21:50 dukeleto oops.
21:50 * dukeleto missed #ps
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