Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-01-11

| Channels | #parrotsketch index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
06:10 contingencyplan left #parrotsketch
10:30 mikehh joined #parrotsketch
15:17 contingencyplan joined #parrotsketch
15:37 atrodo joined #parrotsketch
17:29 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
17:29 kid51 kid51's report
17:29 kid51 DONE
17:29 kid51 * Closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1927: Parrot doesn't build with spaces in directory names
17:29 kid51 * Closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1890: Installed Parrot requires build dir
17:29 kid51 * Closed http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/344: Can't create working installed parrot for macports
17:29 kid51 WORKING ON
17:30 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1925: Remove config step auto-jit:  This just needs comments/review; otherwise ready to merge.
17:30 kid51 * http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1922: Remove 'make help' outfit:  Comments welcome.
17:30 kid51 * Preparation for Jan-29/30 PDS
17:30 kid51 PARROTSKETCH NEEDS TO DISCUSS
17:30 kid51 * Parrot Developer Summit
17:30 kid51 ** Need to discuss day and time of Parrot Developer Summit scheduled for weekend of Jan 29-30.
17:30 kid51 ** Last time (Dec 05 2010) we used a polling mechanism to determine time.
17:30 kid51 ** We could do that again, but ...
17:30 kid51 ** ... that resulted in a time which was convenient for Western Hemisphere (Sun mid-afternoon or early evening)
17:30 kid51 ** ... but was necessarily less convenient for Europe or Australasia (Sun late night or Mon early morning)
17:31 kid51 ** Should we rotate the inconvenience on a quarterly basis?
17:31 kid51 *
17:31 kid51 * Google Code-In
17:31 kid51 ** Public recognition for participants who worked on Parrot (I'd like to know each student's real name/city/country).
17:31 kid51 ** Invite participants to get commit bits (discuss whether/how parental consent is necessary).
17:31 kid51 ** Evaluate impact on Parrot Project:
17:31 kid51 *** How many commits resulted?
17:31 kid51 *** What new functionality was added?
17:31 kid51 *** How many new tests were written?
17:32 kid51 *** What did GCI enable us to do that we wouldn't have done otherwise?
17:32 kid51 *** What did GCI divert our attention from?
17:32 kid51 ** In addition to a discussion in psketch, a write-up should be posted to parrot-dev
17:32 kid51 EOR
18:34 cotto left #parrotsketch
19:05 NotFound joined #parrotsketch
19:19 plobsing joined #parrotsketch
19:21 NotFound What I did since last report:
19:21 NotFound -parrot
19:21 NotFound * Minor fixes
19:21 NotFound -winxed
19:21 NotFound * Some more compile time evaluations of constant expressions
19:21 NotFound * volatile var
19:21 NotFound * Minor fixes
19:21 NotFound What I will do:
19:21 NotFound No plan
19:25 NotFound EOR
19:30 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
19:42 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
19:42 whiteknight * Helping out with the last few GCI tasks. It was a great program but exhausting.
19:42 whiteknight * On a ticket rampage. Closing lots of tickets, or getting other people to close them for me. We're down to ~570. I would like to be much lower.
19:42 whiteknight * Working on the ExceptionsTasklist wikipage to start putting together a rough TODO list. Taking ownership and triaging many open Exceptions-related tickets.
19:42 whiteknight * Created a branch exceptions_backtrace to add information about backtraces to be preserved across rethrows. This is a temporary fix, I'm planning out the real solution in my head and will put pencil to paper about it soon.
19:42 whiteknight * Created the kill_packfile_new_dummy branch to try and kill the PackFile_new_dummy function, and make packfile handling more consistent. Initial attempts look promising, but still failing tests. This will probably wait till after 3.0.
19:42 whiteknight * Having problems testing PLA. I'm going to start a new ecosystem project for test-related modules, borrowing code heavily from the beleaguered kakapo project. That will probably go public soon.
19:42 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
19:42 whiteknight * Keep closing tickets. I would love to get down to ~550 by next week.
19:42 whiteknight * Trying to get PLA building and running all tests against current Parrot. Probably going to require lots of Kakapo changes, or another test solution.
19:42 whiteknight * Would love to have PLA and ParrotSharp releases ready shortly after 3.0.
19:42 whiteknight EOR
20:11 plobsing What I Did: * attempt to make parrot work better with non-ascii OS strings * add documentation about debugging random failures. * polish Ωη to be more suitable for users (docs, installer)
20:11 plobsing What I Plan: * more packfile stuff (in branches, likely too big for upcoming release)                                      * more polish for Ωη (plumage, etc...)
20:11 plobsing OK, bad paste. retrying in 3..2..1
20:12 plobsing ccache cc -I./include -I./include/pmc -ggdb -march=native -DHASATTRIBUTE_CONST  -DHASATTRIBUTE_DEPRECATED  -DHWhat I Did:
20:12 dukeleto lulz
20:12 plobsing What I Did:
20:13 plobsing * attempt to make parrot work better with non-ascii OS strings
20:13 plobsing * add documentation about debugging random failures.
20:13 plobsing * polish Ωη to be more suitable for users (docs, installer)
20:13 plobsing What I Plan:
20:13 plobsing * more packfile stuff (in branches, likely too big for upcoming release)
20:13 plobsing * more polish for Ωη (plumage, etc...)
20:13 plobsing EOR
20:15 cotto_work *did:
20:15 cotto_work - keep up with gci
20:15 cotto_work -  finally over; very successful, very draining
20:15 cotto_work -  blogged: http://reparrot.blogspot.com/2011/01/thanks-code-in-students.html
20:15 cotto_work -  next year, we'll need to manage it a bit differently
20:16 cotto_work - lots of code review
20:16 cotto_work -  coke++ for speeding up str2c again
20:16 cotto_work - more digging into nqp-rx/nom
20:16 cotto_work -  chatted with jnthn.  Progress has resumed.
20:16 cotto_work -  I have a rough idea of what's needed for Lorito planning at this point.
20:16 cotto_work - rfc review
20:16 cotto_work *will do:
20:16 cotto_work - 3.0 release
20:16 cotto_work - more rfc review
20:16 cotto_work *blockers:
20:16 cotto_work - none
20:16 cotto_work *eor
20:16 cotto_work q3q
20:17 dukeleto What I did: * Rode the GCI crazytrain and survived. Thanks to everyone who helped! * Merged many branches from GCI students, increased lots of test coverage. * Worked on my TPF grant in the leto/embed_grant branch * Improved our git docs, adding info about keeping a fork in sync
20:17 dukeleto What I will do: * Hack on my TPF grant * Write a GCI blog post
20:17 dukeleto darn you, copy and paste.
20:17 dukeleto Blocking on: * Time
20:17 dukeleto .EOR
20:20 Util # Done:
20:20 Util * Recovered from flu; no Parrot work done.
20:20 Util # Plan to do:
20:20 Util * Finish .dmg for Rakudo Star (usable by Parrot)
20:21 Util # 7-day ticket report:
20:21 Util 1 closed: duplicate
20:21 Util 29 closed: fixed
20:21 Util 1 closed: invalid
20:21 Util 6 closed: wontfix
20:21 Util 18 new
20:21 Util 4 reopened
20:21 Util .end
20:28 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:28 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:28 mikehh * quite a lot of fixes, especially related to GCI
20:28 mikehh * sorted out some build failures and removed some warnings
20:28 mikehh * merged html_cleanup branch into master
20:28 mikehh *   this needs some checking, especially the index/header pages as they now pick up
20:28 mikehh *   the page title (in the index page) directly from the generated html files
20:28 mikehh *   previously this was picked up from the Parrot::Docs::Section files which
20:28 mikehh *   had both the file name and thge title, now we have to work from the file name alone
20:28 mikehh *   I have not yet removed these (Parrot::Docs and ::Section files (for checking)
20:28 mikehh *   they wioll be removed later in html_cleanup_2
20:28 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:28 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:29 mikehh * set up html_cleanup_2 to remove the cruft left over
20:29 mikehh .eor
20:30 kid51 Good localtime() everybody!
20:30 tadzik o/
20:31 whiteknight hello
20:31 Util Hello
20:31 cotto_work hi
20:32 mikehh hi there
20:32 cotto_work anyone feel like leading this thing?
20:33 * kid51 thinks we should set up a rotation of ps chairs (as we do for releasemanager), so we don't waste time each week deciding this
20:33 * cotto_work volunteers
20:33 kid51 Proceed
20:34 cotto_work Our goals last week were to keep up with gci and get plumage working.
20:34 cotto_work Both seem like a success, from what I can tell.
20:34 kid51 First achieved -- but I have no knowledge of latter.
20:34 whiteknight plumage is working and is submitting reports to smolder
20:34 cotto_work The next barrier appears to be getting people to actually use plumage
20:35 whiteknight If you haven't done so, I recommend everybody here give it a shot
20:35 NotFound plumage was working, the goal was to test it the more possible. If most people don't know, the goal has failed IMO.
20:35 kid51 Could someone post the procedure (a) to parrot-dev; (b) to a wiki page?
20:36 NotFound http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem
20:37 kid51 Perhaps wiki page should be titled:  "Plumage: Parrot's Module Ecosystem"
20:37 plobsing NotFound: TL;DR
20:38 NotFound A page specific for instaling and use it, separated for rationale and design plans mey be better.
20:40 cotto_work Documenting plumage in a "getting started" page sounds like a good goal.
20:41 NotFound A TODO ticket for that?
20:41 cotto_work It should have as low a barrier to entry as possible.
20:41 dukeleto hola
20:41 cotto_work If you want, but you could also just start a GettingStartedWithPlumage wiki page.
20:42 NotFound We have too much wiki pages not linked from everywhere, I think.
20:43 cotto_work Wiki organization is lacking.
20:43 cotto_work We'd need both a cleanup and a system to keep the wiki organized.
20:43 kid51 Wikis are inherently disorganized.
20:43 cotto_work not critical, but it would be nice
20:44 cotto_work indeed
20:44 dukeleto are we onto questions?
20:44 cotto_work sure
20:44 kid51 A post to parrot-dev by someone knowledgeable would suffice to get me started with plumage
20:44 kid51 q1q
20:45 cotto_work any other questions to queue before we dive in?
20:46 cotto_work ok.  I had 3, some of which weren't actually questions.
20:46 cotto_work 1 - The 3.0 supported release is 7 days away.  Please don't push any new features or deprecation removals to master after today.  Bug fixes are fine through Friday, IFF you don't break HLLs.  After Friday, please limit changes to serious bugfixes and documentation improvements only.
20:47 NotFound The setlocale problem should be fixed before the release, or reverted.
20:47 cotto_work Was that not completely fixed?
20:48 whiteknight maybe we can set up a second, temporary integration branch, and keep master clean and bug-free for the release
20:48 NotFound cotto_work: no, even with the last plobsing patch it fails to read non-ascii directories with C locale. That is very ugly for a release IMO.
20:49 cotto_work Who can make sure that that bug either gets fixed or reverted by the end of the day today?
20:50 cotto_work plobsing or NotFound?
20:50 plobsing I'm implementing the solution suggested by NotFound++ in #parrot a few minutes ago
20:50 NotFound cotto_work: I cab test and diagnose te problems, but haven't looked at the code chanegs.
20:50 NotFound plobsing++
20:51 cotto_work plobsing: thank you.  Can you take point in reverting or fixing by the end of the day today?
20:51 plobsing sure thing.
20:52 cotto_work thanks.
20:52 cotto_work next question-like entity:
20:52 cotto_work We have several things to focus on for the release:
20:53 cotto_work - deprecations: (remember that we now require an upgrade path to be in place before a deprecated feature can be removed)
20:53 cotto_work - testing:  I'll be damned if Rakudo isn't going to build on the 3.0 release.
20:54 cotto_work (I focus on Rakudo because we've broken it frequently, but other HLLs are also important and need to be tested)
20:54 cotto_work - docs: html_cleanup was merged earlier this week.  Please review the generated documentation, especially links.
20:54 * dukeleto is hacking on infrastructure that will make it easier to test parrot + rakudo and submit automated smoke reports and emails on failure
20:54 cotto_work Are there other things we need to keep under consideration?
20:54 cotto_work dukeleto++
20:56 cotto_work Don't forget that now is a really good time to comb through tickets and get deprecation notices in.
20:57 cotto_work last comment:
20:57 cotto_work gci was intense.  We got a ton out of it, but it was also a big drain on resources.  Next year, we should have a couple dedicated volunteers do most of the work so that the others don't get diverted from other tasks.  This isn't so much of a question as a comment to keep in mind for the next gci.
20:57 cotto_work eoq
20:58 cotto_work any thoughts before kid51's question?
20:58 * plobsing must leave, will read log
20:59 cotto_work alright.  kid51, go ahead
20:59 mikehh re gci, we definately need a procedure to test etc. before merges
21:00 kid51 Parrot Developer Summit: last weekend of this month ...
21:00 kid51 Are we going to use an online scheduling tool as we did last time ...
21:00 mikehh spent a lot of time cleaning up
21:00 cotto_work kid51: +1 to an online scheduling tool
21:00 kid51 ... or are we going to deliberately set a time *different* from last month's time in order to better accommodate our members in different time zones?
21:01 whiteknight a different time would probably be good. The last PDS was recent, so it's more important to get people involved
21:01 kid51 Given that bulk of our devs are in Western hemisphere, using a tool and going with the plurality will always lead to times more convenient for us than say, bacek, GeJ, mikehh, nwellnhof, etc.
21:01 cotto_work mikehh: do you mean more than codingstds cleanups?
21:02 cotto_work integration wasn't too well-organized
21:02 whiteknight kid51: Let's pick a general rotation schedule. Either 8hours or 12 hours from when our last one was
21:02 kid51 As I pre-posted, Sunday 6:00 pm US ET last time translated to early Monday AM in Australia; late Sunday night in Europe
21:02 mikehh cotto_work: probably, but need to think about that
21:02 kid51 My suggestion:  Let'
21:03 kid51 Let me see if we can get a time that works for Bacek/GeJ, then work backwards from there.
21:03 whiteknight kid51: +1
21:03 kid51 In three months: prioritize accommodating European devs
21:03 kid51 In six months: prioritize Western hemi
21:03 cotto_work kid51: I like that, as long as we don't exclude a majority of developers.
21:04 mikehh I can generally fit with any time as long as I have a few days to sort it out
21:04 dukeleto cotto_work: is the old embed api properly deprecated?
21:04 kid51 cotto_work: I can't guarantee that; at some point in the year, each dev will be inconvenienced
21:04 * dukeleto should have q1q'ed
21:04 kid51 Shall I proceed along those lines?
21:04 NotFound We don't have any developer in Antartida?
21:04 whiteknight dukeleto: I don't think it is. I need to add that notice
21:05 whiteknight kid51: Yes
21:05 dukeleto whiteknight: that is important
21:05 cotto_work kid51: I don't mind if it's inconvenient for me personally.  I just want to make sure that we have enough attendees to be productive.
21:05 kid51 If so, I will try to have the PDS scheduled by next week's parrotsketch
21:06 kid51 EOmyQ
21:06 plobsing left #parrotsketch
21:06 whiteknight q1q
21:06 cotto_work If we can adequately define and address that, I'm fine with whatever the outcome is.
21:06 cotto_work dukeleto: go ahead
21:07 cotto_work dukeleto?
21:08 NotFound cotto_work: I think the question was the deprecation of old embed
21:09 cotto_work NotFound: plausible.  whiteknight go ahead.
21:09 whiteknight on the note that dukeleto mentioned above, do we want to deprecate the old embedding API?
21:09 whiteknight I do, but I would like a show of hands before I put in the notice
21:10 cotto_work +1
21:10 mikehh well we have the new one so the old one should be deprecated
21:10 whiteknight obviosuly we will need to make sure projects like PL/Parrot which rely on it will be updated before anything changes or is removed
21:10 kid51 deprecation => 'the notice goes in, but the current version stays until fully replaced'  ???
21:10 cotto_work kid51: yes
21:10 kid51 +1
21:10 NotFound I think we need a +1 from plparrot, is the most active embedding project.
21:11 whiteknight kid51: I think so
21:11 cotto_work if at all possible
21:11 dukeleto cotto_work: sorry. Already taken care of, whiteknight is going to properly deprecate the old embed API
21:11 cotto_work dukeleto: ok
21:11 whiteknight okay, I'l commit the notice now
21:11 dukeleto +1 to deprecate old embed API, but don't remove until the new embed API can do what the old one does
21:11 NotFound Agreed
21:11 whiteknight done
21:12 mikehh +1
21:13 Util +1
21:14 cotto_work any other questions or comments?
21:15 bacek joined #parrotsketch
21:15 bacek ~~
21:15 mikehh yeah bacek
21:15 cotto_work hello bacek
21:16 bacek q1q
21:16 cotto_work go ahead
21:16 bacek Can we review all RFC/deprecation tickets during this week and properly put them into DEPRECATED?
21:17 whiteknight +1
21:17 bacek It's best opportunity to get rid of some old crap.
21:17 cotto_work definitely
21:17 mikehh +1
21:18 bacek Another question/idea.
21:18 cotto_work I'll help with that.  Any other volunteers?
21:18 whiteknight cotto_work: me
21:18 whiteknight me me ME ME ME
21:18 bacek cotto_work, I'll try to help.
21:18 cotto_work great.  Others are welcome.
21:18 cotto_work bacek: next question?
21:18 bacek Another RFC: simplify PIR.
21:19 bacek During work on PIRATE I hit a lot of problems with current PIR sugar.
21:19 bacek E.g. macros, etc.
21:19 whiteknight bacek: Do we simplify PIR as it is (in IMCC), or do we create a new language based on PIR for PIRATE?
21:19 plobsing joined #parrotsketch
21:19 mikehh yes, but in what way?
21:19 whiteknight maybe PIRATE should be a compiler for PIR2
21:19 bacek whiteknight, not in IMCC.
21:20 whiteknight bacek: okay. IMCC is the compiler for PIR. PIRATE can implement it's own language
21:20 bacek pirate consist of 2 parts: PIR parser and PBC emitter.
21:20 cotto_work bacek: are you talking about seldom-used features that take too much effort in PIRATE or are you talking about major changes?
21:20 NotFound In that case, we should document the differences between "official" PIR and imcc extensions.
21:20 bacek cotto_work, "minor deprecations"
21:20 cotto_work for example?
21:20 bacek .macro
21:20 bacek heredocs
21:21 cotto_work .macro is used 67 times in t/
21:21 cotto_work heredocs are used all over the place
21:21 bacek .set_returns/etc ("verbose pcc calls")
21:21 mikehh a lot of testing seems to depend on that
21:21 bacek Ok, I can try to implement heredocs.
21:22 NotFound A lot of tests are written in ugly ways just because they are very old.
21:22 mikehh macros always worry me, a lot of security issues there
21:22 whiteknight I think very old PIR features, like .set_returns and friends can be destroyed
21:22 whiteknight TCL uses .macro heavily. Coke will plotz if we delete those
21:22 whiteknight ...and i'm not cleaning that up
21:23 cotto_work whiteknight: you pass the sanity test
21:23 cotto_work bacek: if a feature would only require updating a handful of tests that'd be fine, but it sounds like those features are pretty widely-used.
21:24 bacek then I'll need some help with implementing macros :)
21:24 cotto_work it will be important for PIRATE to implement a highly-complete subset of PIR in order for us to use it as a replacement for imcc.
21:24 bacek But my main goal - emitting PBC from POST
21:24 cotto_work I'm always looking for an excuse to hack on PIRATE.
21:24 NotFound macros are very useful for hand written assembler languages, but pir is mainly intended to be generated.
21:25 bacek NotFound, +1
21:25 whiteknight I can take a look at macros. They may be easy enough to if we can defer translation until we get to the code generator
21:25 bacek whiteknight, you welcome. github/parrot/pir :)
21:25 whiteknight bacek: Yeah, I know where it is :)
21:26 * whiteknight has to pack up and go home now. Will backlog
21:26 bacek Another PIR change: more strict syntax.
21:26 mikehh on that note, any progress on tree-optimization
21:26 bacek E.g. remove support for bare function names.
21:26 bacek foo() vs "foo"()
21:26 cotto_work bacek: that sounds like something that would be fairly reasonable to automatically fix.
21:27 cotto_work or at least half-automatically
21:27 NotFound A feature I'd like: allow registers in .param
21:27 bacek cotto_work, yeah. It's supported in PIRATE now. But I don't like it.
21:27 bacek mikehh, no word from tcurtis...
21:27 cotto_work +1 if it can be fixed.  Is there a deprecation ticket?
21:27 bacek cotto_work, yes.
21:28 NotFound Automatically generating param names is painful, is easier to use register numbers,
21:28 bacek NotFound, I can look at it. No promises at all, but I'll try.
21:28 cotto_work NotFound: can you file a ticket?  That sounds like something that'll be easier post-PIRATE.
21:28 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
21:29 bacek Last thing: moving PCT into separate repo. Similar to nqp-rx.
21:29 cotto_work +1 on the condition that it get very frequent testing.
21:29 mikehh plumage?
21:29 cotto_work If we break that, a lot of people will be sad.
21:29 NotFound Also, is the problem of setting annotations berfore params fixed?
21:29 bacek cotto_work, of course. Looks like we almost have mj41 back with new shiny taptinder.
21:30 cotto_work bacek: that's great news.  Will we be able to easily add and get yelled at when we break new projects?
21:31 bacek cotto_work, I hope so.
21:31 cotto_work NotFound: is there a ticket on that?  I don't see one.
21:32 NotFound cotto_work: I'll look and create one if not.
21:32 cotto_work NotFound: thank you
21:32 bacek Sorry, time to go.
21:32 cotto_work bacek: thanks for dropping by
21:32 cotto_work any other comments before I list this week's goals?
21:33 cotto_work here's what I have:
21:33 cotto_work GOAL 1: Write a GettingStartedWithPlumage wiki page
21:33 cotto_work GOAL 2: Fix the setlocale bug (plobsing)
21:33 cotto_work GOAL 3: Review the documentation produced by make html (all)
21:33 cotto_work GOAL 4: test HLLs, especially Rakudo and nqp-rx after the feature freeze (all)
21:33 cotto_work GOAL 5: review all deprecation tickets, file proper notices (cotto, whiteknight, bacek)
21:34 kid51 +1
21:34 cotto_work any volunteers for the plumage wiki page?
21:35 mikehh I want to do one on the new make html and requirements
21:36 cotto_work mikehh: Do you have a question or a goal?
21:36 mikehh just a goal for me
21:36 cotto_work ok
21:37 mikehh and commentin' why i wasn't volunteerin for plumage
21:39 cotto_work Volunteers are welcome for the plumage wiki page task.  Let's call it a wrap.
21:40 tadzik can I help?
21:40 mikehh tadzik: help always welcome
21:41 tadzik I mean, with the wiki page
21:41 tadzik that's supposed to be showing off the plumage usage, both from the user's side and the developer's side, right?
21:41 bacek left #parrotsketch
21:42 NotFound tadzik: user side
21:42 tadzik a'right. When is that for, before 3.0?
21:42 NotFound Developer side is: http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/wiki/ModuleEcosystem
21:43 tadzik right
21:43 dukeleto left #parrotsketch
21:43 mikehh tadzik: the wiki pages are not specifically related to parrot releases
21:44 tadzik so "the sooner the better"?
21:45 tadzik bah, too many questions. I'll make a note when I write something
21:45 NotFound tadzik: you can start with a very minimal one, is better than none, and incrementally improving.
21:46 mikehh tadzik: you can put up an outline, fill it in and when ready link to the main page
21:46 tadzik NotFound: yeah, that's my plan
21:46 tadzik I'll try to put up some sketch tomorrow
21:47 kid51 left #parrotsketch
21:53 bacek joined #parrotsketch
22:08 plobsing left #parrotsketch
22:15 NotFound left #parrotsketch

| Channels | #parrotsketch index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary