Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-02-08

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17:32 kid51 kid51's report
17:32 kid51 * DONE
17:32 kid51 ** PaFo business
17:33 kid51 ** Several phone conversations with other devs to take pulse of project post-PDS
17:33 kid51 ** Blogged on results of PDS, need for us to be more user-centric:  http://www.parrot.org/content/feedback-jan-29-2011-parrot-developers-summit-were-users-needs-served
17:33 kid51 ** Wasn't at parrotsketch last week, but prior to that performed cage-cleaning which led to closing of TT #207, TT #1775, TT #1739, TT #1454
17:33 kid51 * DOING
17:33 kid51 ** TT #1988 and TT #2000:  code cleanup under lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/*.  Will close tomorrow.
17:33 kid51 ** TT #1954:  make docs target (not yet ready)
17:34 kid51 ** Looking at some other code cleanup under lib/Parrot/Pmc2c/ suggested by bacek
17:34 kid51 * WILL DO
17:34 kid51 ** Talking with potential contributors to Python-on-Parrot; expect blog post later tonight
17:34 kid51 ** Review some PaFo legal/financial docs
17:34 kid51 EOR
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18:10 Topic for #parrotsketch is now Priorities for this week: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/2010-12-28#i_3126985 | Post closed tickets in your report. | Note: This channel is for our Tuesday status meetings (at 20:30 UTC); you probably want #parrot instead. | irclog: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parrotsketch/today
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20:00 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
20:00 whiteknight * More work on the imcc cleanup/refactor work. Stuck on bugs. Looking for some volunteer debugging help.
20:00 whiteknight * Worked on Parrot#, including many fixes/cleanups/refactors, an improved test suite, and wrappers for several PMC types
20:00 whiteknight * Trying to fix/debug parrot-instrument. We're getting closer to making it build and work correctly, but it's pretty well bitrotten in some places
20:00 whiteknight * Created an extending function to wrap char** arrays up as *StringArrays
20:00 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
20:00 whiteknight * Several things to blog about
20:00 whiteknight * Need to fix the PLA test suite so I can cut a release of that
20:00 whiteknight * Keep working on the IMCC branch, hope to get it merged in before 3.2, which requires debugging and testing
20:00 whiteknight EOR
20:02 NotFound 2011-feb-08:
20:02 NotFound What I did:
20:02 NotFound -parrot
20:02 NotFound * Fixed a problem with strings passed to nci not null terminated
20:02 NotFound * Rearranged initialization and freeze/thaw of Array types
20:02 NotFound * Created experimental function Parrot_ext_try
20:02 NotFound * Minor fixes
20:02 NotFound * Added and fixed some tests
20:02 NotFound -winxed:
20:02 NotFound * Several refactors, cleaning and fixes
20:02 NotFound * Better messages for features unsupported in stage 0
20:02 NotFound * Added predef __FUNCTION__
20:02 NotFound * return and yield now can have argument modifiers
20:02 NotFound * Added operators delete, %= and ^
20:02 NotFound * Improved operators += and -=
20:02 NotFound * Option --noan now works in all stages and with both drivers
20:02 NotFound * Allowed usage of null in argument lists.
20:02 NotFound * A lor more of eye candy in example fly
20:02 NotFound What I will do:
20:02 NotFound Play a bit with a C++ backend for winxed
20:02 NotFound EOR
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20:08 kid51 kid51 supplemental:
20:08 kid51 At the tail end of this blog post:  http://www.parrot.org/content/feedback-jan-29-2011-parrot-developers-summit-were-users-needs-served ...
20:08 kid51 I make suggestions for a timeline over the next two-and-a-half months re:
20:09 kid51 translating objectives discussed at recent PDS -- particularly "make HLLs faster" objectives -- into steps with certain deadlines.
20:09 kid51 It would be helpful if people read that and let us know whether the suggested timelines are realistic.
20:09 kid51 EOsupplementalR
20:14 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:14 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:14 mikehh * some fixes
20:14 mikehh * branch testing and fixes
20:14 mikehh * testing Rakudo and Winxed on latest parrot
20:14 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:14 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:14 mikehh * prepare and release 3.1 on Feb 15
20:14 mikehh .eor
20:19 cotto_work *did:
20:19 cotto_work - closed some tickets
20:19 cotto_work - talked with kid51 about the state of the project
20:19 cotto_work - submitted an OSCON talk
20:19 cotto_work - worked with whiteknight++ to get gsoc-instrument building again
20:19 cotto_work -- passes some tests, segfaults for others
20:19 cotto_work - M0 roadmap progress
20:19 cotto_work -- started figuring out coordination for the Lorito team - weekly concall sounds like it'll work
20:19 cotto_work -- started a branch for the spec - m0-spec (not pushed yet)
20:19 cotto_work - profiling runcore progress
20:20 cotto_work -- none
20:20 cotto_work *will do:
20:20 cotto_work - put something into the m0-spec branch, M0 concall
20:20 cotto_work - profiling runcore cleanup
20:20 cotto_work - more rfc review, more ticket closing
20:20 cotto_work - try to finish resurrecting gsoc-instrument
20:20 cotto_work *blockers:
20:20 cotto_work - none
20:20 cotto_work *eor
20:23 dukeleto What I did: * Submitted 3 OSCON talks * closed some TT's * merged tt1331-osx-conf-fix branch * applied a patch from benabik++ * other stuff i probably forgot about
20:23 dukeleto * What I will do: * Attempt to get lorito stuff out of my head and into my branch
20:23 dukeleto * Blockers: * Life, The Universe and Everything
20:24 * dukeleto hates hates hates his pasting functionality
20:24 dukeleto EOR
20:26 Util # Done:
20:26 Util No Parrot work; Perl 6 only.
20:26 Util # Plan to do:
20:26 Util Misc Perl 6, but especially .dmg for Rakudo Star
20:26 Util # 7-day ticket report:
20:26 Util 2 closed: done
20:26 Util 1 closed: duplicate
20:26 Util 16 closed: fixed
20:26 Util 1 closed: invalid
20:26 Util 10 closed: wontfix
20:26 Util 7 new
20:26 Util .end
20:27 pmichaud did:  closed tickets, nqp and rakudo discussions
20:28 pmichaud plan: more nqp stuff, more articles
20:28 pmichaud .end
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20:31 cotto_work hello, all
20:31 mikehh hi there
20:31 NotFound Hola
20:32 dukeleto hola
20:32 kid51 hello
20:32 cotto_work How'd we do on last week's goals?
20:33 bacek aloha
20:33 cotto_work I know we got the ticket count down thanks to many people's efforts.
20:33 bacek My report: work on gen_gc. Reaching stable state quickly.
20:33 Util Hello
20:34 cotto_work The other goal was to get more eyeballs on whiteknight's imcc branch(es)
20:35 cotto_work How did that go?
20:35 whiteknight plobsing put some eyes on it, but wasn't able to duplicate bugs on his machine
20:35 whiteknight other than that, no progress. Still running into some weird memory corruption issues
20:35 whiteknight disappears with -G, but I don't know if GC causes it or just exposes it
20:36 cotto_work ok.  Any other thoughts on the past week?
20:36 mikehh master seems pretty stable at the moment
20:37 kid51 q1q
20:37 mikehh any branch merges before Saturday
20:37 mikehh then we can have a nice bugfest
20:37 cotto_work mikehh: thanks for taking the 3.1 release
20:37 kid51 I tested generational_gc today for the first time in a long time; got errors in 3 tests
20:37 kid51 much fewer than previously
20:38 mikehh I think I fixed the codetest errorsa there
20:38 cotto_work kid51: go ahead with your question if that wasn't it.
20:38 bacek kid51, 2 gc 1 ro? They are "expected"
20:38 kid51 bacek:  Yes, I think that's what they were.
20:38 NotFound generational_gc build winxed well, pass its test and run the hardest programs I have
20:39 benabik I've tested gen_gc a bit.  I get those and a couple checkdepend.  Result segfaults building Rakudo.
20:39 cotto_work It's good to see that one hll is happy with it.
20:39 bacek Unfortunately rakudo explodes. Even more since 2 days ago...
20:39 kid51 As I mentioned in my pre-post, on my parrot.org blog I posted recommendations for a timeline for formulating our next set of Roadmap Goals.
20:40 kid51 It would be good to get people's reactions to that.
20:40 kid51 bottom of: http://www.parrot.org/content/feedback-jan-29-2011-parrot-developers-summit-were-users-needs-served
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20:40 kid51 (That was my question)
20:40 mikehh looked good to me
20:41 mikehh q1q
20:42 * whiteknight goes afk for a minute
20:42 kid51 Any other reactions to suggested dates?
20:42 mikehh could we push it forward?
20:43 cotto_work Of those goals, the only one that's not being worked on (afaik) is serialization.
20:44 cotto_work If nothing else, we should form a goal around that.  The other items may not need dedicated roadmap goals, but we should monitor how they're going to ensure that they're making progress.
20:45 cotto_work The timeline doesn't look bad.
20:47 kid51 mikehh:  There's nothing to stop us from beginning work on any goal before those dates.
20:47 kid51 If we complete work on any of those objectives before, say, April 15, they don't have to go on the roadmap.
20:48 cotto_work kid51: that sounds like a good deadline.
20:48 kid51 But if we expect that bulk of work will take place between 3.3 and 3.6, then that objective should get a roadmap goal and a team.
20:48 * kid51 satisfied; who's next?
20:49 cotto_work No other questions were queued.  Does anyone want to ask something?
20:49 kid51 mikehh had ?
20:49 cotto_work mikehh: apologies for missing that.  Go ahead.
20:50 mikehh I tried to get html_cleanup_2 working (locally) but there are a lot of weird dependencies
20:50 mikehh We should be able to remove mose of lib/Parrot/Docs
20:50 mikehh I think kid51's eliminate_make_docs branch needs to be sorted first
20:50 mikehh most
20:51 kid51 mikehh: Yes, we need to fix that branch. +1 to getting rid of as much of lib/Parrot/Docs as possible.
20:52 cotto_work Removing unused code is always welcome.
20:53 mikehh lib/Parrot/DocsSection should go but it seems to be used in tests etc
20:53 mikehh lib/Parrot/Docs/Section
20:53 cotto_work There's a good chance the tests are no longer needed.  Do you need help digging in?
20:54 kid51 I'll try to look at eliminate_make_docs this weekend
20:54 mikehh related to that I have a local branch to add more html docs, I will push it later and hopefully include it in the release
20:55 kid51 cotto_work: I suspect mikehh and I can handle these things between us
20:55 cotto_work kid51: ok.  Any other questions?
20:56 * kid51 has another ?
20:56 mikehh just remember tested branched can be pushed until Saturday
20:56 cotto_work kid51: go for it.
20:57 kid51 Let's assume that people are already working on the "make HLLs faster" objectives identified by pmichaud on parrot-dev last week.
20:57 kid51 It would be good to know who is working on which objective already?
20:58 kid51 i.e., match people to items
20:58 kid51 so that we can ask about progress in next week's #ps
20:58 kid51 :-)
20:58 cotto_work ok.  I'm on profiling.
20:58 kid51 Who is working on GC?
20:59 bacek We need faster pcc... Currently it creates at least 2 gcable per call.
20:59 bacek kid51, me :)
20:59 kid51 bacek:  Naturally!
20:59 kid51 bacek, cotto:  Anyone working with you on those objectives?
20:59 cotto_work profiling, no
20:59 bacek no
21:00 kid51 "Create .pbc files directly from a Parrot program. "  Anyone on that?
21:00 bacek kid51, me
21:00 kid51 Anyone else working on any of the 4 items mentioned here?  http://groups.google.com/group/parrot-dev/msg/3bf9d5096a993525
21:01 bacek It's on hold. Waiting for "newPCT". Will work with pmichaud on implementing it.
21:01 pmichaud bacek: iiuc, the packfile format isn't going to be stable enough for Rakudo to rely upon, though.
21:01 bacek pmichaud, it will be hidden in POST::Compiler.
21:01 kid51 So we have cotto working on profiling; bacek working on GC and pbcfiles (with the latter on hold)
21:01 bacek same as now
21:02 kid51 Is there anyone else who would like to partner with cotto or bacek on these objectives?
21:02 pmichaud okay, if POST::Compiler is committed to staying up-to-date and being an official Parrot API, I'm okay with it.
21:02 pmichaud see message from http://lists.parrot.org/pipermail/parrot-dev/2011-February/005446.html, though.
21:02 bacek pmichaud, something like this.
21:03 whiteknight I'll partner with bacek as soon as my IMCC work is sorted out
21:03 cotto_work The profiling work would divide pretty naturally so that another person could help with it without us stepping on each other's toes.
21:03 whiteknight which could be sped along if people are willing to help debug it...
21:03 bacek pmichaud, Packfile PMCs will hide implementation details.
21:04 pmichaud bacek: that's not what whiteknight++'s message says
21:05 bacek pmichaud, "Once available, this API will remain stable, even if the underlying file format is not.". Packfile _PMCs_ is API :)
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21:06 NotFound That means packfile pmc will have assembler-alike functionality?
21:06 bacek NotFound, erm... Why?
21:07 NotFound Packfile and/or Opcode PMCs will allow to write stable code generators?
21:08 bacek NotFound, I hope so. I'm working on it.
21:08 whiteknight pmichaud: yes, that's what I mean. the packfile PMCs will be the API, in whole or in part
21:09 pmichaud whiteknight: okay.
21:09 pmichaud bacek: okay
21:09 pmichaud thanks :)
21:09 NotFound If the file format is stable but we should to rewrite things every time opcode numbers, calling conventions... change, will not be very stable.
21:10 bacek pmichaud, pirate was my proof of concept. It's doable :)
21:10 pmichaud "doable" and "supported" aren't always identical :)
21:11 pmichaud I'm not concerned about whether it can be done (I know that it can); I'm more interested in will it be done, when, and with what level of support?  ;-)
21:11 bacek NotFound, "opcode" is encapsulated in OpLib. Calling conventions are pretty stable now.
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21:11 whiteknight pmichaud: Parrot won't be doing anything to the current IMCC-based toolchain until we have a doable and supported alternative
21:11 bacek pmichaud, at least covered by deprecation policy.
21:11 whiteknight it's still early to be worrying about it
21:11 pmichaud whiteknight: well, it's early to be worrying about it, but not too early for nqp which is doing new codegen steps
21:12 whiteknight ah, okay. I see your point
21:12 pmichaud nqp is expecting to redo major portions of pct.... so in that sense, it's not too early
21:12 pmichaud we can target imcc, or we can see about targeting whatever comes next if it's going to be available and stable-ish
21:12 NotFound whiteknight: that may be problem. Will be hard to think that a imcc replacement is fully supported until is used instead of imcc in most uses.
21:12 pmichaud I'd rather not develop things twice
21:12 bacek pmichaud, you can target newPOST nodes. POST::Compiler.pbc already functional.
21:13 whiteknight NotFound: not so. We're supporting the new embedding API and the old embedding API now, until the old one is deprecated and removed
21:13 whiteknight We can support multiple alternatives while we migrate from one to the other
21:13 bacek pmichaud, one chunk of work left - annotations. But it's few days work.
21:14 NotFound whiteknight: there are levels of support. The thing used to build most tools is the one that gets faster notice if something breaks, which means full support.
21:14 pmichaud so, how stable is OpLib?
21:14 whiteknight that's fine. not worth arguing about it
21:14 whiteknight OpLib has been pretty stable I think
21:15 pmichaud in the sense of "we don't expect its api to change much?"
21:15 whiteknight right. the existing API shouldn't change much
21:15 pmichaud wfm, then
21:15 pmichaud +1
21:15 pmichaud carry on :)
21:15 whiteknight it's sort of anemic though. Probably needs more features
21:15 whiteknight so if the interface change, it will be through additions
21:16 cotto_work What works will continue to work.  What's not there may at some point start being there.
21:16 bacek afk # dayjob, will backlog
21:20 mikehh Any thoughts on GSoC 2011 - I haven't seen any posts on or linked to the wiki page I set up
21:20 Coke ... what timezone is bacek in now that it's DAYJOB time? ;)
21:21 cotto_work syndney, australia
21:21 mikehh SYD: Wed, 08:21 EST
21:22 kid51 mikehh:  I'll put something up there re timing of GSOC projects in relation to our release dates, etc.  -- but that will only refer to process, not to content
21:23 * whiteknight has to decommute. Later
21:23 cotto_work Does anyone have specific goals for the week?
21:23 mikehh Release
21:24 cotto_work ok
21:24 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
21:24 mikehh I'd like a bugfets/documentation hackathon over the weekend
21:24 mikehh bugfest
21:25 cotto_work +1. Having <500 tickets for 3.1 would be really nice.
21:25 cotto_work here's what I have
21:26 cotto_work GOAL 1: close 23 tickets by next #ps (get total down to <=500)
21:26 cotto_work GOAL 2: monitor progress of Rakudo's needs (speed, gc, profiling, newPOST, serialization)
21:26 cotto_work GOAL 3: no merges after Saturday in preparation for 3.1
21:26 cotto_work GOAL 4: test HLLs after Saturday, fix bugs as needed
21:26 dukeleto sounds reasonable
21:27 kid51 +1
21:27 mikehh +1
21:28 cotto_work Alright.
21:28 cotto_work Let's call it a wrap.
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