Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-03-01

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12:02 kid51 kid51's report
12:02 kid51 * DONE
12:03 kid51 ** Parrot Foundation legal/financial business
12:03 kid51 ** We're approaching halfway point between Parrot Developer Summits. Emailed people who named themselves as members of teams working on Roadmap Goals to assess progress.
12:03 kid51 ** Cage-cleaning: reviewed about a dozen older tickets; this led to my or others closing about 6 tickets.
12:03 kid51 ** http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1049: solved 'make -C' substituted for 'make' problem.
12:03 kid51 * WORKING ON/WILL DO
12:03 kid51 ** http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/1159: make release_check target
12:03 kid51 EOR
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18:29 * dukeleto won't be able to make #ps today
18:30 * dukeleto wrote http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2011/02/parrot-​embed-grant-update-3-now-with-dragons.html recently
18:30 dukeleto and yes, there are some small mistakes (like the length vtable isn't called that) that need to be fixed in that post
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18:48 * plobsing will also likely miss #ps
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18:49 plobsing What I Did:
18:49 plobsing * convert '.param' PIR syntax to a statement (no longer constrained to be at begininig of function). useful with coroutines.
18:49 plobsing * complete ptrbuf merge
18:49 plobsing 8  * added probes for 'long long' and 64-bit C types
18:49 plobsing * added support for 'long double', 'long long', and 64-bit to StructView
18:49 plobsing What I Plan:
18:50 plobsing * revisit Inf/NaN work
18:50 plobsing * deprecate old pointer types
18:50 plobsing * begin nci improvements mirroring ptrbuf changes
18:50 plobsing * get back on the imcc improvement train
18:50 plobsing EOR
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19:15 NotFound What I did:
19:15 NotFound -parrot
19:15 NotFound * Testing, added one test
19:15 NotFound -winxed
19:15 NotFound * operator exists
19:15 NotFound * operator class
19:15 NotFound * operator .* (indirect method call)
19:16 NotFound * $loadlib directive
19:16 NotFound * Added -o option to installable driver
19:16 NotFound * Minor fixes and refactors
19:16 NotFound What I will do:
19:16 NotFound Test and improve winxed recently added features.
19:16 NotFound EOR
19:21 tadzik am I late?
19:21 tadzik seems no, cool
19:30 cotto_work tadzik: it starts in 57m
19:30 tadzik good, thanks
19:57 tewk q1q: What do people thing about merging tewk/select?
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20:15 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
20:15 whiteknight - Hacking on the IMCC branch. Identified what I hope is the last major bug. Working on a fix.
20:15 whiteknight - Translating Rosella into Winxed, providing feedback to NotFound++ in the process. About 50% complete.
20:15 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
20:16 whiteknight - Continue hacking on IMCC. hope to have a fix ready for wide testing by this weekend.
20:16 whiteknight - Continue work on Rosella. Would like to have it translated completely into Winxed soon.
20:16 whiteknight - Getting excited about GSoC. Starting to brainstorm project ideas.
20:16 whiteknight EOR
20:19 cotto_work *did:
20:19 cotto_work - threw my brain at opsc, "helped" bacek get it to parse ops' C instead of just mangling it with regexes
20:19 cotto_work - code review, feedback
20:19 cotto_work - M0 roadmap progress
20:19 cotto_work -- started digging into ffi
20:19 cotto_work *will do:
20:19 cotto_work - figure out a sane set of primitives for M0 ffi
20:19 cotto_work - prioritize remaining open questions in M0 spec
20:20 cotto_work - play with bacek++'s new opsc
20:20 cotto_work *blockers:
20:20 cotto_work - none
20:20 cotto_work *eor
20:20 cotto_work q1q
20:21 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:21 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:21 mikehh * some fixes
20:21 mikehh * branch testing and fixes
20:21 mikehh * adding missing documentation to pmc's and
20:21 mikehh *  removing passing tests from TODO list
20:21 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:21 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:21 mikehh .eor
20:22 Util # Done:
20:22 Util * Fixed 8 Coverity defects
20:22 Util * Fixed 2 Headerizer warnings. (one thorny warning remains)
20:22 Util * Misc other cage work.
20:22 Util # Plan to do:
20:22 Util * Fix TODO in t/op/exit.t
20:22 Util * Finish Rakudo Star binary dist for OS X.
20:22 Util # Blockers:
20:22 Util * None
20:22 Util .end
20:24 atrodo .did
20:24 atrodo * small amount of lorito hacking
20:24 atrodo * some futzing with isparrotfastyet, not visible changes
20:24 atrodo .todo
20:24 atrodo * more lorito hacking
20:24 atrodo * bite the bullet and rerun old commits with new tests with isparrotfastyet
20:24 atrodo .blocker
20:24 atrodo * yaks
20:24 atrodo .end
20:24 atrodo q1q
20:30 cotto_work hio
20:30 NotFound Hola
20:30 kid51 hello
20:30 mikehh hi there
20:30 bacek aloha
20:31 cotto_work How'd we do this week?  I don't think we had any specific goals, but general comments are welcome.
20:31 cotto_work we're down to 507 tickets, which is nice
20:32 Util q1q
20:33 cotto_work We should make it a goal to get some gsoc ideas on the wiki.  It's coming up.
20:33 atrodo howdy
20:33 Util 7-day ticket report:
20:33 Util 10 closed: fixed
20:33 Util 1 closed: invalid
20:33 Util 6 closed: wontfix
20:33 Util 1 closed: worksforme
20:33 Util 5 new
20:34 cotto_work If there are no comments on this week's goings on, we can move to questions.
20:35 mikehh is there any progress on smolder?
20:35 kid51 I have received no response at all from OSL on the bug ticket I filed
20:35 cotto_work none that I'm aware of
20:36 cotto_work kid51: if it just needs to be restarted, they're pretty responsive in #osuosl on freenode
20:36 kid51 I don't have the knowledge to say whether a simple restart is needed or something else.
20:36 kid51 This is actually the first time they have not been responsive in bug ticket.
20:37 kid51 I will try again
20:37 cotto_work kid51: thanks
20:37 cotto_work tewk had a question queued:
20:37 cotto_work <tewk> q1q: What do people thing about merging tewk/select?
20:37 NotFound +1
20:37 kid51 What does it do?
20:37 cotto_work NotFound: have you reviewed the code at all?
20:37 whiteknight I haven't given it a close read-through, but it looks good to me
20:38 NotFound cotto_work: no, but given that is not subject to deprecation or something, it will be better tested in trunk.
20:38 NotFound I mean, master
20:38 cotto_work https://github.com/parrot/parrot​/compare/master...tewk%2Fselect
20:39 kid51 Assuming that the code is well-written, (a) do we want to include its functionality in Parrot; (b) is it thoroughly tested?
20:40 cotto_work tested, yes
20:40 cotto_work thoroughly, not sure
20:40 kid51 I ask because this was (like one other TT this week) a bit out of the blue
20:40 cotto_work the functionality is something portable and generally useful, so including it in parrot is welcome
20:41 NotFound The functionality is highgly convenient given out lack of good thread abilities.
20:41 bacek +1 to merge it.
20:42 cotto_work wfm
20:42 cotto_work tewk: merge when ready
20:42 cotto_work my question:
20:42 tewk Ok I might add a few more tests, but I will merge it soon.
20:42 cotto_work bacek and I have been working on making opsc smart enough to fully parse the C used to define our ops.  It seems to work for core and Rakudo, but it could use testing and review.  Are there any objections to merging it before the end of the week?
20:43 mikehh looks good to me
20:43 NotFound Provided that is not intolerably slow, +1
20:43 cotto_work (when I say "bacek and I", it basically means that I was able to sneak something in while bacek was sleeping and was therefore unable to beat me to it)
20:44 cotto_work there's about a 20% speed hit, but that only comes into effect when rebuilding ops
20:44 NotFound Not so bad.
20:44 whiteknight those op-building tests are already unbearably slow
20:44 kid51 It built and tested fine for me in a basic Linux configuration
20:44 NotFound Given what I does, amazing.
20:44 mikehh will do some more test runs on it
20:44 kid51 cotto_work: Can you explain more about the speed hit?
20:44 cotto_work kid51: what do you mean?
20:45 kid51 Given that Rakudo et al are demanding more speed out of Parrot, it seems reasonable to ask why we should be slowing it down
20:45 cotto_work it's 20% slower in generating src/ops/core_ops.c, which is checked in
20:45 cotto_work the generated code is essentially the same
20:45 kid51 Are you saying that this speed only affects Parrot 'make'?
20:46 cotto_work kid51: it can only slow down the build.  Rakudo's runtime performance won't be effected.
20:46 kid51 If so, and if the generated code is essentially the same, what is the advantage?
20:46 tewk What about parrot or opsc makes it slower than the perl version of opsc?
20:46 tewk Because it runs on top of parrot now.
20:47 cotto_work kid51: the advantage is that opsc has a semantic understanding of the C code now and can be made to output something other than C.
20:47 NotFound It parses the code instead of just figuring where the C code starts and ends.
20:47 cotto_work (or grammatical, at least)
20:48 NotFound I hope it will also hep to diagnose errors better and earlier.
20:48 cotto_work Our dream of converting the .ops files to lolcode is one step closer.
20:48 NotFound help
20:48 kid51 okay, while not objecting to merging it, I would really welcome something like a blog post that explains to lay people like me what it does and why it's better
20:48 NotFound +1 on that
20:48 cotto_work (or nightmare)
20:48 cotto_work eoq then
20:48 kid51 We need to give people, like myself, who are not "deep C coders" something to point to when we talk about Parrot with others.
20:49 mikehh it's more self-contained and bootstraps
20:49 cotto_work mikehh: it did that before.  Now it's smarter.
20:50 cotto_work atrodo: go ahead with your question
20:50 kid51 If there were someone who could write a blog post or post to parrot-dev about that, we could point to that in our next release announcement.
20:50 mikehh yes and allows more options
20:51 atrodo I'm in the middle of working on isparrotfastyet, and dukeleto's "smoke-me" branches made me think about doing something similar
20:52 atrodo So, the question is, I could do composed graphs that have multiple tests on one graph (like the perl6-bench set) or multiple branches.  Which do people think is more useful?
20:52 cotto_work I don't like the idea of putting metadata in a branch name.
20:52 whiteknight ditto
20:54 cotto_work atrodo: I'd prefer one graph with multiple branches.
20:55 atrodo That's what I was leaning towards.  But that brings up the "which branches" question
20:55 Util You could use a smoke-me/ dir in a branch, containing a file of metadata. Just remember to remove the metadata file before merging.
20:56 cotto_work atrodo: can you make an interface in ipfy to add/remove branches?
20:57 kid51 At any given time, we only need to smoke master and 2-3 other branches that are being actively worked on.
20:57 whiteknight a metadata file in a metadata repo somewhere would be nice
20:57 kid51 But which 2 or 3?  That changes week-to-week
20:57 whiteknight dalek reads from a .json file in perl6/mu. We could have the same kind of thing
20:57 whiteknight parrot/meta on github
20:58 tewk I think the branch name is easy, ingenious, and convenient.  branches are short-lived, parrot doesn't have to overcomplicate and over abstract every step in the development process.
20:58 whiteknight not *every* step
20:58 atrodo cotto_work> Adding an interface wouldn't be hard, i just worry about administration of who has access
20:59 whiteknight branch names are fine in theory. But what if we want a branch which is both smoked and benchmarked? smoke-me/benchmark-me/foo?
20:59 cotto_work My preference is a web-based interface, but the guy who's writing the code gets the most votes. ;]
20:59 atrodo Something like branch names or parrot/meta would levrage permission sets that already exists
20:59 whiteknight that's why I suggest the new repo. It could serve other purposes as well
20:59 cotto_work atrodo: a hard-coded password would be fine for the first approximation
20:59 cotto_work (not long-term, of course)
21:00 cotto_work parrot/meta sounds fine too.
21:01 atrodo Any objections to parrot/meta?  Sounds like the path of easiest maintenance to me
21:01 cotto_work atrodo: go for it
21:01 atrodo wfm, eoq
21:02 cotto_work Util: go ahead
21:02 Util What was the original use of `attribute_defs' (in _vtable)? Does anyone remember?
21:02 Util I ask because I think it is unused, and am exploring removing it.
21:03 whiteknight i have no idea.
21:04 NotFound Util: looks like pmcproxy uses it
21:04 Util NotFound: Yes, only to copy/proxy it. It then gets used by nothing.
21:05 NotFound Ah, yes, is used to create the object attributes corresponding to the ones in a pmc parent.
21:05 cotto_work Util: I don't know without some archeology.
21:06 NotFound I've just remembered that I wrote it X-)
21:06 cotto_work NotFound: I love that feeling.
21:06 whiteknight so we want to keep it?
21:06 Util If anyone remembers a reason that I should not waste my time, just tell aloha. Otherwise, I will push a branch that removes it, for review.
21:07 NotFound I think that object inheritance from PMCs depend on it.
21:07 whiteknight if that's true, we should see that code in the coverage reports
21:07 whiteknight if it's covered, we're using it. If not, we aren't
21:07 Util NotFound: Great! then it should break tests on removal?
21:07 whiteknight because we do plenty of inheritance in the suite
21:08 NotFound Util: I hope so
21:08 NotFound whiteknight: that doesn't prove much, the attributes will be built even if never gets used.
21:09 cotto_work The code in pmcproxy that deals with attribute_defs gets hit by our test suite.  If it goes away and nothing breaks, there's a good chance it's safe to take out.
21:09 whiteknight so if the attributes get built anyway, why do we need that vtable?
21:09 cotto_work trying now
21:09 NotFound whiteknight: the attributes are built using the data in that vtable field.
21:10 whiteknight so if we take it out, it won't be able to build the attributes?
21:10 NotFound Is a data field, not a vtable function.
21:11 NotFound whiteknight: the attributes corresponding to the proxied parents.
21:11 cotto_work the build doesn't break if I take out the while loop.  Util, this sounds like it's good a chance of being unneeded code.
21:11 whiteknight ok
21:12 Util Thanks, all. Will pursue. EOQ.
21:12 cotto_work we'll want to do a bit of digging before merging into master, but it looks promising
21:12 cotto_work great.  any other questions?
21:13 cotto_work Did anyone have a question queued that I missed?
21:13 NotFound I had a question about nqp libraries, but was already answered in #parrot a few hours ago.
21:15 cotto_work ok.  We have some goals this week:
21:15 cotto_work GOAL 1: Get some GSoC ideas on the wiki. (all)
21:15 cotto_work GOAL 2: Merge/review tewk/select. (cotto, tewk, others)
21:15 cotto_work GOAL 3: evaluate attribute_defs, rip out in branch (util)
21:16 NotFound For the record: nqp libraries depend on P6object being loaded, and the answer is that it will be fixed.
21:16 whiteknight recorded
21:17 cotto_work any closing remarks?
21:18 tadzik I can say something about Da
21:19 tadzik ... DaD, since there's no dukeleto
21:19 cotto_work tadzik: go ahead
21:19 * dukeleto is here
21:19 tadzik so, I wrote a regex-based deprecation detector... oh, dukeleto's here
21:19 dukeleto tadzik: go ahead
21:19 dukeleto tadzik: i am backlogging a bit
21:20 tadzik so, it works. Requires a bit extended api.yaml, and then matches given files for deprecations and outputs a friendly info
21:20 tadzik nqp script and api.yaml in https://github.com/tadzik/p​arrot-deprecation-detector
21:20 cotto_work tadzik: very nice
21:20 tadzik that's it
21:21 cotto_work tadzik: thanks for bringing attention to that
21:21 tadzik opens route to webservices and stuff
21:21 tadzik oh, Makefiles is broken
21:22 cotto_work tadzik: I'm looking forward to being able to tell users "run this script in your project's root dir and it'll detect most of the deprecations that you'll run into"
21:22 tadzik cotto_work: consider it done
21:22 tadzik say, next #ps
21:22 tadzik and that requires filling api.yaml with deprecations
21:23 tadzik I mean, with regexes
21:23 NotFound What kind of regexes?
21:23 tadzik hold on...
21:24 tadzik as in https://github.com/tadzik/parrot-deprec​ation-detector/blob/master/api.yaml#L18
21:24 dukeleto tadzik: p6 regexes ?
21:24 tadzik aye
21:24 tadzik it all runs on nqp
21:24 dukeleto tadzik: spiffy
21:24 tadzik spiffy?
21:24 dukeleto tadzik: spiffy = good stuff
21:25 tadzik oh, spiffy :)
21:25 cotto_work I like where all of this is going.
21:25 dukeleto i can imagine an automated process that checks out the latest versions of HLL's and runs the deprecation detector on them.
21:25 tadzik as spiffy as my Suceeded Driving Exam Today? :P
21:25 tadzik dukeleto: that's the goal methinks
21:25 dukeleto tadzik: congrats!
21:26 tadzik thanks :)
21:26 NotFound tadzik: So you are not Sponge Bob?
21:26 tadzik *SCNR*
21:26 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
21:26 tadzik NotFound: no, I don't really like jeans
21:26 dukeleto tadzik: does the dep detector have docs?
21:26 tadzik dukeleto: nope
21:26 tadzik I can write some
21:26 dukeleto tadzik: we need some :)
21:26 dukeleto tadzik: just very quick intro, explaining what it is and what it can do
21:26 tadzik currently, there's not much code
21:26 tadzik oh, a README or something. Sure thing
21:26 dukeleto tadzik: explain that it uses nqp-rx regexen, which a few simple examples
21:27 tadzik will do it probably tomorrow
21:27 dukeleto tadzik: yes, a README is very nice
21:27 dukeleto tadzik:
21:27 tadzik a wiki page or something
21:27 dukeleto tadzik++
21:27 tadzik lemee add it to my todo
21:27 NotFound Yes, be very clear that they aren't perl5 ones.
21:27 NotFound Premature confusion avoiding is the root of all good.
21:28 cotto_work I'd think that in the common case, a full regex won't be necessary and that a simple string would be enough.
21:28 tadzik sanesounding
21:28 tadzik will think about it
21:29 cotto_work the lazy developer in me says that people probably won't want to figure out a p6regex if they don't absolutely have to
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21:30 tadzik true
21:30 cotto_work This discussion should move to #parrot.
21:31 tadzik well, that's a 3.3 Goal
21:31 tadzik but maybe
21:34 cotto_work Are there any other #ps issues or should we call it a wrap?
21:36 cotto_work That's a wrap!  Go write great things.
21:36 NotFound say "great things"
21:37 kid51 cosas magnificas
21:37 tadzik Girrafes have 18-inch tongues, and they sleep 15mins-2hours daily
21:38 Topic for #parrotsketch is now Priorities for this week: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/parr​otsketch/2011-03-01#i_3348283 | Post closed tickets in your report. | Note: This channel is for our Tuesday status meetings (at 20:30 UTC); you probably want #parrot instead. | irclog: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/
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