Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-06-21

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19:06 kid51 kid51's report
19:06 kid51 * DONE
19:06 kid51 ** Posted to parrot-dev re request for status update on 3.6 Roadmap Goals.
19:06 kid51 ** Closed no Trac tickets this week :-(
19:06 kid51 ** Overall count (Trac report #10): 518; net decline of only 2 this week.
19:06 kid51 ** Worked on YAPC talk; still need to do slides.
19:06 kid51 * WILL BE DOING
19:07 kid51 ** Going to YAPC
19:07 kid51 ** YAPC presentation, scheduled for Mon Jun 20.
19:07 kid51 EOR
19:20 tcurtis DID:
19:20 tcurtis * Moved into summer apartment
19:20 tcurtis * CFSM generation, but it's buggy
19:20 tcurtis WILL DO:
19:20 tcurtis * Blog
19:20 tcurtis * Fix bugs
19:20 tcurtis * LR(0) parser generation
19:20 tcurtis EOR
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19:29 bubaflub DID:
19:29 bubaflub * Parrot-GMP
19:29 bubaflub - Major bug fixes; we're now segfault free
19:29 bubaflub - Increasing test coverage
19:29 bubaflub - Other minor improvements
19:33 bubaflub WILL DO:
19:33 bubaflub * Parrot-GMP
19:33 bubaflub - Get test coverage to 100%
19:34 bubaflub - Make setup.pir work
19:34 bubaflub - Add metadata so we can install from plumage
19:34 bubaflub EOR
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19:53 cotto #done:
19:53 cotto - thinking about M0, found a hole in string processing (i.e. there isn't any)
19:53 cotto - cut the 3.5.0 release without incident
19:53 cotto - work on Parrot talk
19:53 cotto - at Open Source Bridge, will give Parrot talk tomorrow (will be recorded)
19:53 cotto - nudged soh_cah_toa toward a testing infrastructure
19:53 cotto #to do:
19:53 cotto - spec/implement some useful primitive string processing primitives
19:53 cotto - give Parrot talk
19:53 cotto - hack soh_cah_toa's test prototype into something more reusable
19:53 cotto - implement M0 CPS factorial or fibonacci example
19:53 cotto - think and write about what M0's future in Parrot will look like
19:53 cotto - hang out with dukeleto++ and other hackers at OS Bridge and YAPC::NA
19:54 cotto #blockers:
19:54 cotto - way too many interesting talks and awesome people at OS Bridge
19:54 cotto #eor
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20:21 NotFound What I did:
20:21 NotFound -parrot
20:21 NotFound * Minor fixes.
20:21 NotFound * Testing winxed snapshot.
20:21 NotFound -winxed
20:21 NotFound * Minor fixex.
20:21 NotFound * Minor tests improvements.
20:21 NotFound What I will do:
20:21 NotFound No plan
20:21 NotFound EOR
20:21 benabik DID:
20:21 benabik * Added .annotate 'file' to PCT in master (TT #2132)
20:21 benabik * Killed a few more Q:PIR blocks
20:21 benabik * Caught up with bacek
20:21 benabik * Looked over newPOST
20:21 benabik WILL DO:
20:21 benabik * Design PAST -> newPOST conversions
20:21 benabik * YAPC::NA
20:21 benabik * Stop worrying as much about removing every last Q:PIR
20:21 benabik * Blog
20:21 benabik BLOCKERS:
20:21 benabik * My single-mindedness about killing PIR blocks
20:21 benabik * Fixing my house
20:21 benabik * Driving 16 hours to YAPC::NA
20:21 benabik EOR
20:22 mikehh What I did since my last report:
20:22 mikehh * building and testing parrot on amd64/i386, with gcc/g++
20:22 mikehh * a couple of fixes
20:22 mikehh What I intend to do in the next week:
20:22 mikehh * testing and fixing
20:22 mikehh .eor
20:25 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
20:25 whiteknight * Answering questions for GSoC and otherwise
20:25 whiteknight * Talking lots about NameSpaces, lexicals, and other related stuff that parrot is doing wrong
20:25 whiteknight * Doing what little I could to help dukeleto++ finish his grant
20:25 whiteknight * Added vectorized testing to Rosella, need to blog about that. Also working on a big refactor of the Event library
20:25 whiteknight * A few small cleanups to embedding/extending, although I quickly got in dukeleto's way. Will get back to that now that his grant is over.
20:25 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO:
20:25 whiteknight * Get back to blogging
20:25 whiteknight * Stare more at embedding/extending code. I have some stuff I want to write up about that
20:25 whiteknight * Stare more at profiling code.
20:25 whiteknight * Finish up some Rosella stuff
20:25 whiteknight EOR
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20:28 Util # Done:       RosettaCode, and worked on talk for YAPC::NA.
20:28 Util # Plan to do: Finish talk and attend YAPC::NA + Hackathon
20:28 Util # Blockers:   $WORK
20:28 Util I will be in and out of the #ps meeting today.
20:28 Util .end
20:31 cotto hi
20:31 Util Hello
20:31 benabik ohai
20:31 bubaflub hello, q1q
20:31 whiteknight hello
20:31 darbelo Eclesia: Fun tidbit, at work naming a o/
20:31 tcurtis Hi.
20:31 darbelo wt
20:31 benabik bubaflub: already?
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20:32 kid51 Hello
20:32 cotto The release went smoothly, which was good because it meant that I could go to bed earlier.
20:32 bubaflub benabik: just queueing one question for later.
20:32 cotto What about other things that happened?
20:32 cotto Or things that didn't.
20:34 kid51 Commit activity in master was sparse in the past few days, which I think only partially reflects pre-release status.
20:34 kid51 My casual impression is that most activity in past week was in GSOC or older branches
20:34 cotto kid51, I agree.  I know that most of my efforts have gone toward M0 thinking and prototyping.
20:35 kid51 On parrot-dev, I posed question re where do we stand re July 3.6 roadmap goals.  Have not gotten responses yet.
20:35 cotto I intended to reply but got busy with osbridge prep.
20:35 whiteknight I've been thinking about that
20:36 whiteknight nothing to talk about yet, but I have been thinking
20:36 cotto Thinking is good.  Blogging is also good.
20:36 kid51 The short version of those goals:  benchmarking HLLs; plan better profiling; relationship managers with Rakudo
20:38 cotto The grant is off dukeleto's plate now.  I won't extrapolate that he'll necessarily have more tuits.
20:38 cotto Nothing's happened with profiling.
20:38 cotto rather, I haven't done anything substantial there
20:39 kid51 whiteknight: Will you be able to begin focusing on profiling during the coming week?
20:39 whiteknight kid51: Yes, I looked at it before. I was going to wait until cotto freed up, but that's looking like an endless wait :)
20:39 whiteknight so I'll stab ahead on it myself
20:40 kid51 whiteknight: Indeed!
20:40 cotto whiteknight, don't do that.
20:40 cotto "Free" is a relative term in this context.
20:40 kid51 I think the 2 of you need to recruit some other people on the profiling effort.
20:40 cotto and working on both M0 and profiling is reasonable
20:40 kid51 s/other/additional/
20:40 cotto We need a plan first.
20:41 cotto Right now I wouldn't have anything especially helpful to tell a willing hacker.
20:41 kid51 Plan was, by 3.6, to have "studied our existing profiling tools, determined their strengths and limitations and developed a plan for significant improvements in later supported releases."
20:41 whiteknight yeah, once I figure out where we stand and what is needed, I'll draft some fresh faces
20:41 cotto better imcc line numbers wouldn't hurt
20:42 soh_cah_toa :)
20:42 cotto It'd probably cure some of soh_cah_toa's nightmares.
20:42 NotFound Forgot to say Hola, sorry.
20:43 soh_cah_toa some, yes ;)
20:43 soh_cah_toa in all seriousness though, i'd love to see that
20:43 benabik cotto: Not just soh_cah_toa's.
20:43 cotto you're not alone.  There's a reason we've had several attempts to fix it.
20:43 whiteknight If we can deprecate PIR heredocs, we can fix linenumbers pretty quickly, I think
20:44 cotto whiteknight, that'll mean rewriting a lot of tests.
20:44 benabik whiteknight: That's not the only issue, unless the heredoc parser screws up things when heredocs aren't used.  IMCC is also wildly off the generated PIR for nqp_pct.
20:45 whiteknight IMCC has a lot of problems. Bending over backwards to make heredocs work is one aspect of it
20:45 whiteknight cotto: I'm not saying it's a good course of action, just saying it's one possibility that will get us there
20:45 cotto I'd be working on it now but I've never gotten my head around lex and yacc
20:49 cotto I don't think we'll resolve this issue today.  I *really* want to get us some kind of pir compiler with sane line numbers, and imcc is the current "working" option.
20:50 whiteknight hopefully GSoC puts us in better position with respect to PIRATE
20:50 whiteknight or, something similar
20:50 NotFound winxed does not generate pir heredocs, but line numbers sometimes are wrong anyway.
20:50 whiteknight NotFound: it's not the heredocs themselves that are the problem, it's the stupid decisions IMCC makes in order to accept heredocs
20:50 NotFound Agree
20:50 whiteknight line numbers are broken in part because of code that supports heredocs
20:51 tadzik I have a feeling that heredocs don't really fit in a thing like PIR, fwiw
20:51 * whiteknight says nothing
20:51 cotto tadzik, that's not an inaccurate feeling
20:51 NotFound Sometimes I think the better solution will be: stop using lexx and yacc!
20:51 cotto NotFound, accepting patches
20:52 tadzik cotto: how commonly is it used in todays code?
20:52 cotto tadzik, it's very common in PIR tests
20:52 tadzik I see
20:52 benabik I should poke my head into IMCC.  I actually somewhat like lex and yacc style parsers.  (Admittedly, I usually use flex and bison.)
20:53 whiteknight IMCC is much better than it used to be, which is sad
20:53 cotto TimToady suggested that the correct way to do line numbers is to map the position in a file to the line number and look them up as needed rather than incrementing the line number at the right time.
20:54 NotFound That may be another solution. Using bison there are ways to automatically set position information into tokens.
20:54 whiteknight that's a fine approach, for our next compiler
20:55 cotto whiteknight, you don't think it's an option for imcc?
20:55 whiteknight as it currently stands? I don't know. We'd have to rearrange a lot of spiderwebs
20:55 whiteknight and we don't have a lot of spider-bite insurance
20:56 cotto get torch
20:57 cotto pmichaud mentioned that even basic sub-level profiling was very helpful in finding a hot spot.
20:58 cotto A better imcc is highly desirable, but we can produce something useful with it as it stands.
20:58 whiteknight yes, we have to get that figured out too. I wonder if using a subclass of Sub would be a useful exercise, if we can make that work
20:58 whiteknight or a subclass of CallContext
20:59 whiteknight I still don't know enough about the system. I need some dedicated studytime with it
21:00 cotto It sounds like we at least know what the next step is.
21:01 cotto whiteknight, do you mind if we move on to bubaflub's question?
21:01 whiteknight sure
21:01 cotto bubaflub, go ahead
21:02 bubaflub our docs for the NCI system is in PDD16 and it's still in the draft subdirectory.  i was wondering what it would take to move it out from draft - i'm willing to help edit or bring it up to date.  if it's too much work, i was wondering what kind of docs people would like to have for the NCI system.
21:04 cotto bubaflub, you're welcome to bring it up to date.
21:04 bubaflub cotto: certainly.  would people like some kind of tutorial as well?  i'm thinking something more narrative-esque
21:04 cotto If it's current and accurate, there's no need to keep it in drafts.
21:04 mikehh needs some work though
21:05 whiteknight should definitely involve plobsing, make sure his knowledge finds its way into the document
21:05 cotto +1
21:05 whiteknight also, since his is the driving vision in that subsystem, he could help to spell out the future plans for it
21:05 mikehh and I think tutorials are always helpful
21:06 bubaflub whiteknight: i concur; plobsing expressed mild disdain for PDDs however; he said he'd prefer to see a tutorial more than a PDD.
21:06 bubaflub at the very least i'd like to bring it up to date - 't' deprecation, better examples, and so on
21:06 bubaflub and i can run the edits by him before they land in master
21:06 cotto The system needs to be documented in a useful format.  That's my biggest criteria.
21:07 whiteknight bubaflub: don't tell plobsing that you're working on the PDD. Ask him a bunch of questions and write down the answers in the PDD when he isn't looking
21:07 NotFound Certainly, writing a document supposed to drive the design following an existing design is less than idea.
21:07 NotFound ideal.
21:07 bubaflub whiteknight: sneaky sneaky
21:07 bubaflub NotFound: agreed.  but at least it can be current; i'm not exactly sure what the future plans are.
21:07 cotto It's closer to ideal than what we have now, so +1.
21:07 NotFound AFAIK the future plans are: "Improve it"
21:08 bubaflub ok, i think i will update the PDD whilst running the changes by plobsing surreptitiously and i'll also have a tutorial
21:08 cotto excellent
21:08 bubaflub the tutorial will contain things not specifically related to NCI like StructView, String, tests, etc.
21:08 bubaflub ok, eoq.
21:09 NotFound BTW, q1q
21:09 cotto NotFound, go ahead
21:10 NotFound UnManagedStruct does not implement vtable get_bool, I think using to return true if not null will be an improvement. What do you think?
21:10 whiteknight NotFound: why?
21:10 whiteknight (i'm not against it. I just want to know the motivation)
21:10 cotto What's the use case?
21:11 NotFound whiteknight: nci call that return a maybe null pointer.
21:11 whiteknight ah, okay
21:11 cotto That's a good use case.
21:11 cotto +1
21:12 * whiteknight has to go make dinner. Will backscroll
21:14 cotto any other comments or questions?
21:14 NotFound No opposition and just after a release is a good time to give a try. EOQ.
21:15 mikehh so the get_bool will return true if something exists?
21:15 cotto For those planning on coming to yapc::na, get ready in whatever form is appropriate
21:15 NotFound mikehh: if the UnManagedStruct has been assigned something.
21:16 mikehh NotFound: sounds good to me
21:16 NotFound Something other than NULL, that is.
21:17 cotto NotFound, yes, it's a good time to break things.
21:19 cotto Does anyone have suggestions for weekly goals?
21:19 NotFound Break things!
21:19 kid51 1. First draft of plan for profiling (whiteknight)
21:19 kid51 2. Attendees at OpenSource Bridge should blog or post to parrot-dev about it
21:20 kid51 3. Same as 2, but for YAPC (which will be in progress at this time next week)
21:21 kid51 Attendees at YAPC should check in with me upon arrival in Nashville; #parrot msg will suffice.
21:21 kid51 s/Nash/Ashe/
21:22 cotto btw, I'm sitting next to the guy behind CoApp and am planning on using it to build a package for windows.  I'll add that as a goal, though I won't be able to do anything until July when I have a windows machine at work.
21:23 cotto any other goals?
21:23 cotto GOAL 0: explore what's needed to produce a useful profiler (cotto, whiteknight)
21:23 cotto GOAL 1: break things (and fix them) (NotFound)
21:23 cotto GOAL 2: OS Bridge blogging
21:23 cotto GOAL 3: YAPC::NA blogging
21:23 cotto GOAL 4: CoApp package (cotto)
21:24 cotto http://coapp.org/
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21:25 NotFound Secondary goal: think about some application relatively light that can benefit an embedded parrot.
21:25 cotto xchat and the GIMP were mentioned previously
21:25 NotFound Lighter than gimp, preferably.
21:27 cotto Let's call it a wrap.
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21:28 ligne one last thing.  i brought this up in #parrot, but bubaflub suggested i mention it here too, to get some feedback...
21:29 ligne i've had a little play at adding .pir support to checkdepend.t:  <https://github.com/ligne/parrot/commits/checkdepend>
21:31 NotFound ligne: I think you'll get more feedback with an msg to parrot-dev
21:33 ligne NotFound> fair enough
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