Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-07-12

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Time Nick Message
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17:40 dukeleto What I did:
17:40 dukeleto * Hacked on parrot-libgit2, which now has passing tests thanks to plobsing++ https://github.com/letolabs/parrot-libgit2
17:40 dukeleto * Finished my TPF grant and wrote a blarg toast: http://leto.net/dukeleto.pl/2011/07/a-fina​l-tpf-parrot-embedextend-grant-update.html
17:40 dukeleto * Attempted to get PL/Parrot compiling on Parrot master and Postgres 8.4.8 and failed.
17:40 dukeleto * Added some code coverage to the new Embed API
17:40 dukeleto * Started gathering information about Parrot + Parrot Foundation to apply to Software Freedom Conservancy
17:40 dukeleto * Closed some Trac tickets that were no longer valid
17:40 dukeleto What I will do:
17:40 dukeleto * Attempt to get PL/Parrot compiling again
17:40 dukeleto * Write a test to show how to use libgit2 from Winxed
17:41 dukeleto * Send an email about GSoC midterms, which are due soon
17:41 dukeleto * Planning on writing a Hague grant for PL/Perl6
17:41 dukeleto Blockers:
17:41 dukeleto * Only 24 hours in a day
17:41 dukeleto * Summer
17:41 dukeleto .EOR
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17:48 whiteknight WHAT I DID:
17:48 whiteknight * Merged whiteknight/packfilewrapper branch, and put out fires immediately thereafter.
17:48 whiteknight * Created a new branch whiteknight/pbc_pbc to start cleaning up the packfiles system, removing cruft, and adding some new interfaces that we should be migrating to over time.
17:48 whiteknight * Commented on several tickets, most at the nudging of kid51++
17:48 whiteknight * Created new tickets to deprecate do_sub_pragmas and associated nonsense, the load_bytecode_p op (to be replaced in my new branch by load_bytecode_p_p). Since replacements aren't in master now, we aren't going to put the deprecation notices in before the release
17:48 whiteknight * Been trying to diagnose and fix windows test failures. We're down to t/library/nciutils.t (TT #2150) and t/dynoplibs/debug.t failures. The nciutils ones are figured out, the debug.t one is not.
17:48 whiteknight * Worked on new Rosella Template library, for doing text templating.
17:48 whiteknight * More work and planning on possible PCC refactors. I have a new writeup to post to my blog soon, and am planning to start a new branch soon to add in the new features so we can start deprecations and migrations.
17:48 whiteknight * More planning for 6model. Have some things to follow up with there, will blog and bother jnthn__++ in the near future about that.
17:48 whiteknight WHAT I WILL DO
17:48 whiteknight * Try to find a good stopping point on whiteknight/pbc_pbc branch, and get it ready to merge shortly after the release.
17:48 whiteknight * Probably start a new branch for PCC refactor work and experimentation
17:48 whiteknight * Several Rosella feature requests. Work more on Template library, and maybe the Benchmark library too.
17:48 whiteknight EOR
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17:59 benabik DID:
17:59 benabik * Finished a bloggy post: http://parrot.org/content/gsoc-7-what-newpost
17:59 benabik * Merged a couple weeks of master, including pmichaud's updates
17:59 benabik * Tested my branch on NQP and nom
17:59 benabik * Fixed DESTDIR install of NQP
17:59 benabik WILL DO:
17:59 benabik * Add a pbc phase to PCT::HLLCompiler
17:59 benabik * Make PAST tests run against both PIR and PBC generation
17:59 benabik BLOCKERS:
17:59 benabik * Lack of central air (It's hot!)
17:59 benabik EOR
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18:31 cotto_work *did:
18:31 cotto_work - benchmarked, improved and merged an hll map optimization suggested by jnthn++ and implemented by NotFound++
18:31 cotto_work -- simple for loop in Rakudo is ~2.4% faster
18:31 cotto_work - M0/mole progress:
18:31 cotto_work -- mostly thinking
18:31 cotto_work -- got a couple new volunteers from chromatic++'s blog post
18:31 cotto_work -- misc spec cleanup
18:31 cotto_work -- found a batch of holes in the M0 spec; not quite done yet
18:31 cotto_work - profiling
18:31 cotto_work -- caught whiteknight, brainstormed for a bit
18:31 cotto_work *todo
18:31 cotto_work - finish M0 spec, get implementation in sync with changes
18:31 cotto_work - get a coherent plan for profiling
18:31 cotto_work - specify mole more completely, write an introductory doc
18:31 cotto_work *eor
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18:51 rohitnsit08 DONE
18:51 rohitnsit08 ** support for basic operations
18:51 rohitnsit08 ** support for nested Subroutines
18:51 rohitnsit08 ** code refactor,removing dependencies of commonjs library
18:51 rohitnsit08 *  WILL DO THIS WEEK
18:52 rohitnsit08 ** Object system is in the process.
18:52 rohitnsit08 ** restart work on test-suite.
18:52 rohitnsit08 **
18:52 rohitnsit08 * ROADBLOCKS
18:52 rohitnsit08 ** implementing scopes and closures.
19:01 Coke rohitnsit08++
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19:03 kid51 kid51's report
19:03 kid51 I actually composed my report last night but left it at home on my laptop.
19:03 kid51 Most relevant part: Via my count, we reduced Trac tickets from 514 to 507.
19:04 kid51 Am planning for next week's release and presentation at FOSSCON weekend thereafter.
19:04 kid51 We need to reduce number of failing tests on Windows as much as possible prior to 3.6 supported release.
19:04 kid51 EOR for now
19:05 lucian lucian's report:
19:06 lucian Done: very little, ran out of money and had to get a temporary job
19:06 lucian mostly real-life stuff
19:06 lucian Will do: should have enough time from now on to work on the compiler
19:06 lucian have to fix some object system bugs
19:06 lucian EOR
19:09 NotFound What I did:
19:09 NotFound -parrot
19:09 NotFound * A bunch of miscellaneous improvements: optimizations, dead code deletion
19:09 NotFound and warning avoiding.
19:09 NotFound * Updated the winxed snapshot and added a minimal test for it.
19:09 NotFound -winxed
19:09 NotFound * Merged include branch.
19:09 NotFound * Change handling of builtins: now they are looked up like common functions.
19:09 NotFound * Added builtins trans_encoding, encoding_name, unescape, getcontext,
19:10 NotFound keyed get/setattribute
19:10 NotFound * Fixed and improved encoding handling in sources.
19:10 NotFound * Indirect attribute access: object.*"attribute"
19:10 NotFound * Improved checks for non-lvalues.
19:10 NotFound * for .. in loop now check for nullness and skip the loop in that case.
19:10 NotFound * Optimize out dead code for loops with always false conditions.
19:10 NotFound * Several minor refactos and fixes.
19:10 NotFound What I will do:
19:10 NotFound * Start winxed version and release numbering.
19:10 NotFound EOR
19:25 bubaflub DID:
19:25 bubaflub Finished parrot-gmp VTABLEs
19:25 bubaflub Updated some docs
19:25 bubaflub Loads of tests
19:25 bubaflub WILL DO:
19:25 bubaflub Generate NCI thunks to remove libffi dependency
19:25 bubaflub EOR
19:26 tcurtis DID:
19:26 tcurtis * Lookback sets
19:26 tcurtis * Forgot to blog
19:26 tcurtis * Reread part of "Practical Translators for LR(k) Languages"
19:26 tcurtis WILL DO:
19:26 tcurtis * Really blog
19:26 tcurtis * Midterm evals
19:26 tcurtis * Fix bugs.
19:26 tcurtis * Implement various simple transformations that are necessary to get the DPDAs to actually work.
19:26 tcurtis * Comments/tests.
19:26 tcurtis * Write a DPDA interpreter.
19:26 tcurtis EOR
19:27 tcurtis Addendum to report: also WILL DO: pick a time block and devote that time block every day to GSoC work. EOA
19:29 cotto_work hello
19:29 bubaflub hello
19:29 NotFound Hola
19:29 whiteknight hello
19:30 atrodo howdy
19:30 benabik #phasers note: Looks like first nom release will be early August.
19:30 benabik Hello
19:30 Util Hello # late for pre reporting :(
19:31 cotto_work benabik: thanks.
19:31 cotto_work How'd this week go?
19:31 whiteknight busy
19:31 rohitnsit08 hello
19:31 kid51 Net reduction in # outstanding tickets by ~ 7
19:31 cotto_work windows problems look like they're getting some attention.  Is it enough?
19:31 kid51 No.
19:32 whiteknight We're getting attention on it
19:32 kid51 We have considerable variation among the various Windows smoke testers with respect to which files/tests are failing.
19:32 whiteknight It's not a matter of "breakage" per se. It's a matter of parrot's default semantics being too linuxy
19:32 benabik I'm putting in a bigger hard drive and will put Win7 on it after next OS X release.  I can start trying to do testing on it.
19:32 Util I am tackling mappedbytearray.t failure, and will be running more smoke on Win32
19:32 kid51 We need a plan as to what constitutes "good enough" for 3.6
19:32 whiteknight we're relying on unix default behavior, which windows does not support
19:32 cotto_work whiteknight: that's not surprising, but also lta
19:32 whiteknight kid51: all existing tests pass
19:34 whiteknight anything less isn't good enough
19:34 whiteknight there's a legitimate question here whether code needs to be added or whether tests need to be deleted. Either could happen to resolve this issue
19:35 cotto_work whiteknight: +1.  Either we support it or we don't.
19:35 NotFound MappedByteArray worked fine in windows whan I implemented it.
19:36 Util NotFound: With MinGW?
19:37 NotFound Util: Strawberry perl
19:37 whiteknight cotto_work: yeah, that's the question. We just have to figure out if we want the behavior that the tests specify, or if we do not
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19:38 Util MappedByteArray works fine if you create the object, then .open , but fails on Win32 if you specify the filename *while* creating the object.
19:38 kid51 whiteknight: Have you filed a Smolder for "all existing tests pass"?
19:38 Util I think that the #ifdef offers no codepath in that situation.
19:39 NotFound Sigh... Starting again my old XP home...
19:39 kid51 The other question which we need to ask is:  What does Rakudo need in terms of a parrot that builds on Windows?
19:39 Util NotFound: Sorry, but I am not the first one to see smoke on this.
19:39 whiteknight kid51: I'm not syaing all tests pass. That was my reply to you asking what constitutes good enough
19:39 kid51 oh
19:39 whiteknight kid51: it is only good enough once all existing tests pass
19:40 kid51 There was one smoke report today on Windows which showed fails in only two files.
19:40 kid51 That's great ... but what do we do if we cannot reduce that to 0 by next Tuesday?
19:40 NotFound What bothers me is: if so many people is interested in using parrot on windows, why no one cares of fixing it?
19:41 kid51 NotFound: I think it's more the case that we know Parrot's users (HLLs) must have their programs working on Windows
19:41 cotto_work using software in Windows is much less painful than developing, for the linuxy way we develop
19:42 pmichaud Rakudo only needs the parts of Parrot that it uses to work on Windows.  The parts of Parrot that Rakudo doesn't use don't have to work on Windows for us to be able to run on Windows.  1/2  :-)   (yes, I know, it's a circular answer, sorry)
19:42 NotFound If people this days have forgotten how to program Windows in C, tell them to port parrot to C# or something.
19:43 kid51 Well, my needs are very concrete here: [more]
19:43 kid51 1. Next week we have quarterly supported release.
19:43 Util I care about fixing Parrot on Win32  ...I just get seduced by the Mac side :)
19:43 kid51 2. I am Release Mgr
19:43 kid51 3. I don't have Win box or Win32 expertise.
19:43 kid51 4. Hence, I can't be the person to do last-minute fixes to get tests to pass on Win32.
19:43 kid51 5. Hence, alternatives needed.
19:45 kid51 Are there any recent release managers on channel who can say what we did for, say, 3.0 or 3.3?
19:46 whiteknight We'll get it fixed. There are relatively few failures and the paths to solutions are well mapped
19:46 cotto_work I don't think we had the same failures.
19:46 whiteknight the bigger question is how we resolve this issue so we aren't finding last-minute test failures on windows a week before the next release
19:47 cotto_work I tend to agree.  There aren't so many failures that we should expect to have trouble fixing them.
19:47 whiteknight more windows smolder bots would be awesome
19:47 kid51 whiteknight: This is in large part due to Smolder having been down for most of 2 months.
19:47 kid51 whiteknight has already opened a ticket re t/library/nciutils.t
19:48 whiteknight the t/dynpmc/debug.t failures are ugly, but the debugger is basically a hollow shell at this point and I'm willing to nuke the test if necessary. The nciutils.t test is easily solvable, if we can make up our minds how to solve it
19:48 whiteknight I'm inclined to rip out the offending nciutils.t tests for the release, if we can't sort out the underlying design issues
19:48 NotFound whiteknight: Have you seen my last comment on the ticket?
19:48 kid51 t/dynoplibs/debug.t  also has failures, but if we could get that one done, then Ron Blasch's smoker would be PASS
19:48 whiteknight NotFound; yes, already tried it
19:49 whiteknight None of the functions I've seen let you search for a function in the entire process, only in individual modules
19:50 whiteknight we can loop over all modules in the process, but that requires some ugliness
19:50 kid51 pmichaud: Does Rakudo have someone who regularly tries to build Rakudo on Parrot HEAD on Windows?
19:51 pmichaud kid51: afaik jnthn is our own regular Rakudo dev who works from windows
19:51 pmichaud s/own/only/
19:51 pmichaud I don't know how often he builds against Parrot master HEAD
19:52 kid51 cotto, whiteknight: Could you contact jnthn to see if he's in a position to test Rakudo on parrot head on Windows over the course of next week?
19:52 whiteknight sure
19:53 pmichaud I can tell you he won't be -- he's going on vacation starting Thurs
19:53 kid51 damn
19:53 pmichaud we might be able to get him to do it today or tomorrow
19:53 Util pmichaud: what is param in the new build code to allow auto-getting parrot-HEAD?
19:53 kid51 pmichaud: That would be very helpful.
19:54 pmichaud Util: it only works for nom, atm.  It's   --gen-parrot=master
19:54 Util pmichaud: thanks
19:54 pmichaud Rakudo master doesn't have an equivalent param yet.
19:54 kid51 My hunch is that, for 3.6 purposes, we need to designate one particular Win32 box as canonical and work to get both Parrot and Rakudo PASSing on that box
19:55 kid51 Ideally, that would be jnthn's box, 'cause he's the User.
19:57 cotto_work I can test on windows as needed.
19:58 kid51 cotto_work: Great ... and can you debug there as well?
19:58 cotto_work at a basic level, yes
19:59 kid51 cotto_work: Could you see if you can tackle the fail in debug.t?
19:59 NotFound Real programmers don't use debuggers, they fprintf stderr ;)
19:59 cotto_work I'm looking at the streams.t failure now.
19:59 kid51 k
19:59 cotto_work The failures will get the attention they need.
20:00 kid51 general: Any fixes you do, please make sure they continue to PASS on *nix, of course.
20:00 cotto_work *nix failures are generally hard to miss
20:01 kid51 Well, I just don't want someone committing to master without remembering to test in both environments
20:02 kid51 Between now and next Tuesday, commits to master should be sparse unless they fix test failures.
20:02 cotto_work For the time being, let's assume those failures will be addressed.  If it's getting close to the release and nothing's happened, feel free to sound the alarm.
20:02 kid51 k
20:03 kid51 let's move on to non-release topics
20:03 NotFound kid51: I'll probably update the winxed snapshot to provide version number
20:03 cotto_work Are there other questions?  I don't think any were queued.
20:03 NotFound q1q
20:04 whiteknight q1q
20:05 cotto_work NotFound: go ahead
20:05 NotFound nci thunks: are we going to provide some more?
20:06 cotto_work NotFound: what'd be the advantage?
20:06 NotFound For example, I need SppIpI, ppp, Spp and SppI
20:06 NotFound cotto_work: using strings
20:06 NotFound These functions are needed to get functions with the appropiate encodings
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20:07 NotFound s/functions/strings
20:07 NotFound Getting only with the current platform encoding is plain wrong.
20:08 bubaflub could we just add those signatures to extra_thunks ?
20:08 NotFound I think so. The question is what are we going to provide, and if something is going to manage it.
20:08 NotFound someone
20:09 whiteknight is this something that we need baked in to Parrot all the time, or something we can provide in an extension thunk library?
20:09 whiteknight NCI thunks are cheap, but not free
20:09 NotFound whiteknight: I don't think that something as basic as reading a c-string must depend on extensions.
20:10 NotFound We say something that we fully support unicode...
20:11 whiteknight what exactly are you trying to do? We have ops for changing the encoding of a string
20:11 NotFound Alternatively, provide a way in the nci related PMC to get a string appropiately encoded.
20:12 whiteknight is there a function in nciutils for that?
20:12 NotFound whiteknight: if my platform encoding is utf8 and I try to get for example an iso-8859-1 string wicjh is not valid utf8, blam!, and I can't reencode it.
20:12 whiteknight As a return value from an NCI function?
20:12 NotFound Because I don't have anything to transcode
20:13 NotFound whiteknight: return value, or pointed to in a struct, or whatever.
20:15 cotto_work NotFound: can you write a quick post to parrot-dev or a nopaste in #parrot with examples of what the thunks enable?  I don't object, but I just want to be sure they're actually needed.
20:15 NotFound Other alternative: forget platform encoding, use always binary.
20:16 NotFound Binary can always be read, and can be transcoded.
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20:20 NotFound cotto_work: we can discuse a lot about better ways, but so close from a stable release adding 4 thunks is the less disruptive way,
20:21 whiteknight it would be nice if we had a way to mark a thunk as "experimental"
20:21 whiteknight adding it for a supported release means we need to support it
20:21 cotto_work thunk metadata is sorely lacking
20:22 cotto_work If someone doesn't make an explicit effort to describe a thunk, it's essentially a mystery why it's there.
20:22 TimToady which is why you want a mop that knows native types like thunks as well as user-visible stuff
20:22 NotFound 'Parrot_str_new_init', 'SppIpI' is a simple and clean description
20:24 NotFound 'Parrot_find_encoding', 'ppp'
20:24 NotFound 'Parrot_str_from_platform_cstring', 'Spp'
20:24 cotto_work NotFound:
20:24 cotto_work +1 if you add the function names to the thunk file
20:25 pmichaud ppp looks like it already exists, unless I'm reading the thunk file wrongly.
20:25 kid51 I would need a lot of convincing to add new features 7 days before supported release
20:25 pmichaud I agree that the S* thunks aren't present.
20:25 cotto_work It's hardly a feature.
20:25 NotFound pmichaud: maybe, but I use it only as auxiliar of Parrot_str_new_init...
20:25 cotto_work It's just a bit of data that's used to generate code.
20:26 NotFound Uhhh... now that you say it, maybe it must be ppP
20:28 NotFound Usage examples: binds for MySql and for libxml2
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20:30 cotto_work NotFound: let's move this to #parrot.  I suspect whiteknight will need to leave soon.
20:30 NotFound ok
20:30 cotto_work whiteknight: go ahead
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20:32 whiteknight no question, and I have to leave
20:32 whiteknight left #parrotsketch
20:32 cotto_work Any other questions, then?
20:32 soh_cah_toa me
20:32 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: go ahead
20:33 soh_cah_toa i noticed that we use the open build service (obs) for managing our rpm packages. however, they are severely outdated (v2.5/v3.0). i've been researching obs a little bit and it sounds like something i might like to do
20:33 soh_cah_toa if i could, i'd like to login to our account and find out a little more about what would be required to maintain the rpm packages.
20:33 cotto_work soh_cah_toa: I don't know who has access to that.  You should try parrot-dev.
20:34 soh_cah_toa sure
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20:35 cotto_work other questions?
20:35 soh_cah_toa yeah, i'll send out a message. and if i don't hear anything i'll just bring it up at the next #ps
20:36 cotto_work thanks
20:36 soh_cah_toa eoq
20:37 cotto_work any goals for the next week, keeping in mind the upcoming 3.6.0 release?
20:38 soh_cah_toa testing on win32. which i tried to do but was a total pain w/ cygwin
20:38 soh_cah_toa i'll continue to try though :)
20:40 cotto_work kid51: would you like to suggest any goals?
20:44 cotto_work I've got one goal
20:44 cotto_work GOAL 1: get tests passing on windows (all)
20:45 kid51 cotto_work: No breakage in master before release -- which is pretty much the same as goal 1
20:46 kid51 Other than getting all tests to pass on major OSes, the less excitement this week, the better.
20:46 kid51 but let's have lots of GSOC excitement in branches :-)
20:47 cotto_work kid51: sounds good to me
20:47 cotto_work exciting branches, boring master
20:47 kid51 Well put
20:48 bubaflub also a reminder - GSoC mid-term evaluations (from both students and mentors) are due at the end of this week
20:48 cotto_work bubaflub: good point.  Thanks for the reminder.
20:50 cotto_work I think we're done.  Let's call it a wrap.
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21:05 Topic for #parrotsketch is now Priorities for this week: all tests to pass on Win32; exciting branches, boring master; no dogs on fire | Post closed tickets in your report. | Note: This channel is for our weekly status meetings (Tuesdays at 19:30 UTC); you probably want #parrot instead. | irclog: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/
21:07 soh_cah_toa LATE REPORT
21:07 soh_cah_toa DONE:
21:07 soh_cah_toa * Forget about the #ps time change :(
21:07 soh_cah_toa * Added first implementation of "list" command
21:07 soh_cah_toa * Started writing a tutorial
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Added support for two argument form of "help" command
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Added first implementation of "run" command
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Blogged
21:08 soh_cah_toa TODO:
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Get "quit" command to stop printing a backtrace
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Fill out mid-term evaluation form
21:08 soh_cah_toa * Blog
21:08 soh_cah_toa EOF
21:08 soh_cah_toa EOR
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