Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2011-08-16

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Time Nick Message
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19:05 Coke Doing: cutting release today. Unpleased to find 'make release' borked on OS X, but will avoid the issue for this release. Expect a cut in the evening, Eastern time.
19:05 Coke .
19:05 atrodo joined #parrotsketch
19:05 NotFound What I did:
19:05 NotFound -parrot
19:05 NotFound * Updated winxed snapshot
19:05 NotFound -winxed
19:05 NotFound * Added :multi capabilities from whiteknight++ fork
19:05 NotFound * cast to var builtin
19:05 NotFound * Set release number to 1.1.0 for parrot 3.7
19:05 NotFound What I will do:
19:05 NotFound No plan
19:05 NotFound EOR
19:08 lucian what i did:
19:08 lucian fixed many bugs in the object system
19:08 lucian added functions in the compiler
19:08 lucian 54 tests pass, 6 fail
19:08 lucian what i will do:
19:08 lucian blog
19:08 lucian write docs about the object system
19:08 lucian EOR
19:09 bubaflub what i did:
19:09 bubaflub not much - real life interrupted
19:09 bubaflub what i will do
19:09 bubaflub finish docs
19:09 bubaflub blog
19:09 bubaflub EOR
19:15 soh_cah_toa joined #parrotsketch
19:17 soh_cah_toa REPORT
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Wrote a few tests
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Started designed spec for SOD format
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Blogged
19:17 soh_cah_toa TODO
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Final blog (yikes!)
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Try to fix test suite to run more than one command
19:17 soh_cah_toa * Get people working on SOD design
19:17 soh_cah_toa EOR
19:18 soh_cah_toa q1q
19:23 Util # Done: Nil. # Plan: $WORK. # 7-day ticket report: 5 closed, 6 new.  .end
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19:31 cotto #done:
19:31 cotto - not_gerd poked some important holes in M0
19:31 cotto - not unfixable, but will require different philosophy
19:31 cotto - at yapc::eu, hanging out with Rakudo folks
19:31 cotto - removed parrot_debugger from install
19:31 cotto - segfaults on --help
19:31 cotto - --help is not the kind of thing we want to discourage
19:31 cotto #to do:
19:32 cotto - learn myself some Rakudo
19:32 cotto - synthesize not_gerd's thoughts into a new direction for M0
19:32 cotto - spell out what needs to change and what won't
19:32 cotto - give parrot state talk at yapc::eu
19:32 cotto - finish profiling doc
19:32 cotto #blockers
19:32 cotto - too many interesting things at yapc
19:32 cotto #eor
19:32 cotto also, hello
19:32 kid51 joined #parrotsketch
19:32 soh_cah_toa howdy
19:32 tcurtis hello
19:32 kid51 hello
19:33 * tcurtis arrived too late to pre-report. Will report after the meeting.
19:33 cotto tcurtis, go ahead.  It'll be fun.
19:33 atrodo howdy
19:34 * kid51 worked on PaFo business (membership roles); http://trac.parrot.org/parrot/ticket/2161, which should close after release; began sketching proposal for benchmarking
19:35 cotto How's this week been?
19:35 NotFound Hola
19:35 soh_cah_toa well, i started designing the debug format
19:35 Util Hello
19:35 soh_cah_toa which i'll bring up a little later
19:36 cotto soh_cah_toa, excellent!  What tools are you using, and are the amenable to collaborative editing?
19:36 Coke kid51: when you cut the last release, I assume you did so on linux?
19:36 soh_cah_toa cotto: of course, it's in a gist
19:36 soh_cah_toa cotto: the link is in my blog
19:36 kid51 Coke: Yes (my mac is too old/slow for things like 'make world' :-( )
19:36 * cotto needs to backscroll
19:36 Coke kid51: 'sfine. wouldn't have worked anyway. ;)
19:37 tcurtis Did: got LR(0) stuff actually parsing and building a parse tree, as well as performing actions. Wrote some tests for same. Started on SLR(k).
19:37 tcurtis Will do: Finish SLR(k). Tests. Docs. Blog. EOR
19:39 cotto is there anything that needs attention before the release?
19:39 kid51 We have +1 more open TT ticket this week than last (Report #10): 514 total; we can't seem to get close to 500.
19:39 soh_cah_toa i have the soh-cah-toa/tt-2155 branch for tt #2155 which i can definitely merge and close this week
19:39 kid51 cotto: The Archive::Zip, Archive::Tar tickets are still unresolved -- but I don't think we have to correct them before this release.
19:40 kid51 I don't know of any barriers to today's release.
19:40 cotto I like the sound of that.
19:41 cotto anything else before we move to questions?
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19:42 cotto alright.  soh_cah_toa, go ahead with your question.
19:42 soh_cah_toa sure
19:43 soh_cah_toa i'd like to bring up my idea for a debug format: "symbolic opcode description" format (sod)
19:43 soh_cah_toa i've pretty much explained everything about why we need this in my recent message to parrot-dev and in my blog but i want to mention it here because i'd like to see it recognized as a roadmap goal
19:43 soh_cah_toa and also i'd like to establish a team of people to get working on it
19:43 soh_cah_toa i think the lack of a debug format is one of the things holding us back from having real analysis tools like debuggers, profilers, instrumentation, etc. this can open up *a lot* of opportunities for us
19:43 soh_cah_toa so...any comments/volunteers? :)
19:44 whiteknight joined #parrotsketch
19:44 kid51 soh_cah_toa: 1. How much existing code has to be rewritten to implement a SOD format?
19:45 whiteknight kid51: not a whole heck of a lot, because we don't have much here
19:45 soh_cah_toa kid51: i'm not sure anything really has to be rewritten though i could be wrong. it would mostly be adding to pct
19:45 benabik Do we already have a debug segment/format?
19:45 whiteknight benabik: not really
19:45 soh_cah_toa segment, yes. format, no
19:45 whiteknight we have a simple opcode->line_number mapping
19:45 soh_cah_toa and the segment is very poor
19:45 kid51 is there a particular meaning attached to "segment" here?
19:45 whiteknight it's a part of a packfile
19:46 cotto piece of a pbc file
19:46 benabik what they said
19:46 cotto or packfile struct, more precisely
19:46 soh_cah_toa docs/parrotbyte.pod explains it
19:47 kid51 q1q
19:48 soh_cah_toa so i'd need people w/ a good knowledge of pct
19:48 kid51 What is the difference between a debug segment and a debug format?
19:48 soh_cah_toa well, a format just refers to the format the segment is in
19:48 soh_cah_toa like dwarf, stabs, coff etc
19:49 benabik Basically I was wondering "do we have a place in our pack files to put this" and "is there something already there"?
19:49 whiteknight the format is the design, segment the implementation
19:49 soh_cah_toa whiteknight: yes, exactly
19:49 soh_cah_toa benabik: see my blog post or message to parrot-dev. it explains both
19:50 soh_cah_toa it's pretty much for storing high-level info about the original source in the bytecode
19:50 benabik I could help add it to PCT.  We'd probably also need a new PMC to access/create the data.
19:50 kid51 Well, I applaud the idea that this is acknowledged as needing a *team* effort, and applaud soh_cah_toa for actually wanting to lead a team!
19:51 soh_cah_toa thanks! i think this could really open up a lot of new doors for us
19:51 soh_cah_toa and would also help the difficulties we've been facing w/ profiling
19:52 benabik Hard to profile accurately if you don't know what things are.
19:52 whiteknight since profiling is high on our list, if this really does turn out to be a stepping stone towards that, this moves up to the top of the list
19:52 soh_cah_toa my thoughts exactly
19:53 benabik Not sure it's a requirement for profiling…  But would definitely help make profiling output more useful to HLL users.
19:53 soh_cah_toa of course
19:54 soh_cah_toa that's why i'm bringing it up. it's not just something i want, it's something that we (as in parrot) needs
19:54 cotto soh_cah_toa, a large part of the problem with hbdb was that you couldn't get decent line numbers from imcc.  Is that something that you plan on addressing directly with this effort?
19:54 soh_cah_toa cotto: yup, i have a solution in the spec
19:54 cotto (apologies if that's covered in the p-d post or blog, which I'm reading as we go)
19:54 soh_cah_toa w/ a line number table
19:55 soh_cah_toa it's not. probably should've mentioned that :\
19:55 benabik IMCC's line number problem is due to the opcode/line mapping being insufficient?
19:55 NotFound IMCC's problems are... just that.
19:56 soh_cah_toa :)
19:56 benabik I was under the impression it literally had problems tracking the line number.
19:56 cotto benabik, I believe it's due to the implementation
19:56 soh_cah_toa there's a lot of different reasons and i think the (dwarf-borrowed) idea of a line number and address table solves that in a snap
19:57 cotto I'll look forward to reading your proposals.
19:57 soh_cah_toa great :)
19:57 cotto over the next few minutes ;)
19:57 soh_cah_toa so atm, i'm done picking out the things i like from dwarf
19:58 soh_cah_toa i just need help seeing how this can be implemented
19:58 soh_cah_toa and more pct-ized
19:58 lucian benabik: it does, if you mis-indent your PIR
19:58 soh_cah_toa b/c pct is an area i'm only just becoming familiar w/
20:00 cotto soh_cah_toa, I like where this is going.
20:00 cotto any other comments or should we move to kid51's question?
20:00 soh_cah_toa yes, me too. i'm very excited
20:01 soh_cah_toa we can move on
20:01 cotto kid51, go ahead
20:02 kid51 Thx.  soh_cah_toa: I've been following your hbdb branch
20:02 kid51 But have always gotten errors in the tests.
20:02 soh_cah_toa kid51: yes, and i thank you for that :)
20:02 soh_cah_toa oh yeah, that whole thing :(
20:02 kid51 I have reproduced those errors on 2 different Linux boxes.
20:02 kid51 But IIRC you have not been able to reproduce them.
20:02 soh_cah_toa no, it's so strange
20:02 kid51 Now, I did attempt to use hbdb natively ...
20:03 cotto and they look fine for me too
20:03 kid51 ... and, regardless of the IMCC problems, it seemed to DTRT as far as the basic commands go.
20:03 kid51 So I'm inclined to believe this is an iatrogenic error, i.e., a limitation in the testing apparatus itself.
20:03 soh_cah_toa kid51: indeed
20:03 kid51 I want to know what your plans are for that branch in the short run.
20:04 soh_cah_toa well, the first thing is to try to get tests that can run more than one command at a time
20:04 kid51 We know, e.g., that because it was created a long time ago, master has diverged in several respects, e.g., bytecode format.
20:04 soh_cah_toa yes
20:04 soh_cah_toa b/c atm, one test = one command
20:04 whiteknight a merge shouldn't be too too painful
20:05 soh_cah_toa no but all tests should pass
20:05 kid51 What I would like to do is to have other people, who know more about what debuggers ought to do than I do, review hbdb apart from the IMCC problems.
20:05 soh_cah_toa good idea
20:05 kid51 It may be time to refresh the branch from master
20:05 kid51 Or to fork a new branch from master and bring in the HBDB parts.
20:06 soh_cah_toa i think i tried that a while ago but you're right. this could help solve those problems w/ the tests
20:07 kid51 Writing tests for a debugger is, we must concede, a formidable problem in itself, because you have to be thinking in terms of both your program's STDOUT/IN/ERR and the debugger's as well.
20:07 soh_cah_toa yes, ipc programming/testing itself is a nightmare
20:07 kid51 So, to avoid getting wrapped up in testing conundra, we should have other people just try to use it and get feedback about that experience.
20:08 soh_cah_toa sure
20:08 NotFound Parrot std out and err can be redirected.
20:08 soh_cah_toa the next thing i gotta do is watchpoints
20:09 kid51 NotFound: If you can take a look at lib/Parrot/Test/Hbdb.pm in his branch, you might spot something I haven't.
20:09 kid51 (or whatever soh_cah_toa's testing module is called)
20:10 NotFound I'll try
20:13 kid51 EOMQ
20:13 cotto any other questions?
20:15 kid51 I have an announcement.
20:15 cotto announce away!
20:16 kid51 I'm slowly preparing an annual Parrot Foundation members meeting.
20:16 kid51 This entails a lot of inspection of commit logs, CREDITS, our Dropbox, etc., to see who qualifies.
20:17 kid51 So, this past weekend, I identified people who had submitted CLAs which were found in our Dropbox and who were not yet on the parrot-members mailing list.
20:17 kid51 That list probably had not been updated since last year's meeting.  (Of course, there was no urgent need for it to be.)
20:18 kid51 I then subscribed all those qualifying individuals to the list. (If they want to be unsubscribed, they can simply follow typical Mailman link.)
20:18 kid51 That leaves several groups of people.
20:19 kid51 (i) People who meet the "made two contributions to Parrot" qualification but for whom I could not find CLAs in our Dropbox.
20:19 kid51 (ii) People who might have signed CLAs in the past (including in our Perl Foundation days) that I don't see.
20:20 kid51 So, this past weekend, I tried to send an email to those people urging them to sign CLAs, after which we could subscribe them to parrot-members, and after which they would be qualfiied to vote at annual meeting.
20:20 kid51 I'm now sure whether all those emails got to the people intended.
20:21 kid51 And some people may have responded ... but I'm not sure whether 'legal@parrot.org' is properly redirecting to 'parrot-directors@parrot.org'.
20:21 kid51 So, we have technical difficulties.  And I'm the only one working on this.
20:21 kid51 So I can't say that we're ready to schedule an annual meeting for Aug 30, as I had originally hoped.
20:22 kid51 If you *have* tried to send a signed CLA in recent days, please ping me about that off channel so I can follow up with you.  Thanks.
20:23 * kid51 also requests that the other Board members please respond to my posts to parrot-directors.
20:23 * kid51 also requests that the other Board members please return my phone calls.
20:23 whiteknight did I get a phone call?
20:24 kid51 No, but I've left 2 message for one of the others.
20:24 kid51 end_of_announcement
20:25 cotto kid51, thanks for doing the legwork to make the elections possible
20:28 cotto would anyone like to make any other points?
20:28 kid51 How's YAPC::EU going?
20:28 benabik I'd just like to note that the channel topic appears to be empty.
20:28 cotto benabik, I see it
20:29 Util benabik: try saying /topic
20:29 cotto kid51, quite well.  Rakudo is very well-represented.
20:29 cotto I'm spending some instructive time with jnthn, masak and pmichaud.
20:30 cotto I wish more Parrot hackers were here, but I can't make that happen. ;)
20:30 benabik Still not seeing it, but I'll accept it's a client issue.
20:31 cotto my client does that too sometimes
20:32 cotto let's call it a wrap
20:33 benabik Ah.  I can get it out of the server window…  So I will instead note that the channel topic still talks about PDS.
20:33 soh_cah_toa sure, good meeting
20:33 Coke expect a release this evening, eastern time.
20:33 * cotto expects
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