Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #parrotsketch, 2014-10-14

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
07:09 rurban joined #parrotsketch
07:10 rurban left #parrotsketch
07:19 lizmat joined #parrotsketch
08:21 lizmat joined #parrotsketch
13:21 rurban joined #parrotsketch
15:22 rurban1 joined #parrotsketch
16:42 Chirag joined #parrotsketch
17:03 rurban joined #parrotsketch
18:58 Chirag #Pre-Report
18:58 Chirag *Started figuring out the autoboxes. Trying to use the trace flags. Currently, I am finding the implementation a little difficult to understand but will understand better for sure
18:58 Chirag .end
18:58 Chirag <PS - I was just wondering if the day for #ps can be changed? Maybe Friday same time? It actually falls in the middle of the week. But only if convenient and possible, else I am fine :)>
19:28 Util Pre-report:
19:28 Util * Smolder:
19:28 Util + Worked with OSUOSL to reboot the Smolder box, which did not resolve the problem.
19:29 Util + Found that the problem is cause by bad quotes in meta.yml
19:29 Util + SSH'ed into Smolder, and debugged from that side.
19:29 Util - Now tracing why the quotes only occur on Linux system.
19:29 Util * Changing the #parrotsketch schedule
19:29 Util + I have no objection to changing #ps to Friday at the same time.
19:29 Util + However, I am surprised that Chirag does not ask for an earlier time.
19:29 Util - Isn't 19:30 UTC around midnight there?
19:29 Util .end
19:29 rurban Done: (again a lot)
19:29 rurban * Merged several branches and fixed minor issues, mostly for perl6.
19:29 rurban Optimize utf8_substr, sprintf counts bytes, fix sprintf width for unicode and
19:29 rurban NaN/Inf/-Inf, smoke-me/newlines3-gh1087
19:29 rurban Work:
19:29 rurban * Prepared release
19:29 rurban * smoke-me/null-call-gh1024 SEGV in t/compilers/imcc/syn/const.t test 41 (empty imm constant sub)
19:29 rurban * rurban/coros-gh564: added auto-reset, not ready. Not sure if wanted.
19:29 rurban We could initialize a coro to use autoreset semantics. (add new attrib or flag)
19:29 rurban * rurban/coro-reset-gh564: added Coroutine.reset - ready
19:29 rurban * build changes: use gdb, installablelibparrot, ...  ready, but need to wait for my test machines
19:29 rurban * rurban/lexqnames-gh1095 .lex quoting the simple way (another hack on top of more hacks - not ready)
19:29 rurban rurban/lexqnames-gh1095-dev rewrote imcc string handling, proper quoting handling (not ready)
19:29 rurban To be reviewed:
19:29 rurban * smoke-me/darwin-gdb-gh1096
19:29 rurban * rurban/darwin-build-gh1096
19:29 rurban .end
19:30 Util Hello! Who all is in attendance?
19:30 rurban me
19:30 Util Hi, rurban
19:30 rurban Hi, we should do friday, but earlier. for me it's also very late
19:31 Util Earlier is fine with me, either Tuesday or Friday.
19:32 rurban Chirag wanted Friday, I'm ok with Friday if earlier. Friday is movie day for me very often
19:33 Util How much earlier? Range 0..6 hours earlier is fine here.
19:33 rurban the earlier the better
19:33 rurban even more so for Chirag
19:33 rurban Fr morning for you sounds good
19:35 Topic for #parrotsketch is now Post closed tickets in your report. | Note: This channel is for our weekly status meetings (Fridays at 13:30 UTC); you probably want #parrot instead. | irclog: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/
19:35 rurban Like this?
19:35 rurban that's 8:30am Central Time
19:36 Util Yes; -6h from current #ps time is 8:30AM here, but that is 6:30AM in California, so we might have to change it again during the next GSOC.
19:36 rurban and 5:30pm  indian time
19:36 rurban yes
19:36 Util Let's try it for a week, and see if anyone objects. I am not sure what time it will be for Coke and lizmat, for example.
19:37 rurban lizmat is my time
19:37 Util OK
19:37 rurban Coke no idea
19:37 rurban I guess Eastern Time
19:37 Util Coke: Whenever you see this, please weigh in.
19:38 rurban I am just slowing down method calls a bit, a flag check for empty invocants to prevent SEGV's smoke-me/null-call-gh1024
19:38 rurban I guess it's justified. I cannot detect this in imcc, not even in the post fixup. Maybe I'll find out later
19:39 Util One key advantage to Tuesdays was that it is always release day. We will need to monitor the channels more closely on release day now.
19:39 rurban Saturday is bug day. So one day before bug day is also good
19:40 rurban I'll send an email about my coro reset work and questions.
19:40 Util A safe check now sounds wise, (gh1024)
19:40 rurban moar doesnot have coros, they said
19:40 rurban so it's not urgent
19:41 Util How is Rakudo planning to handle Perl-6-level coros on Moar without support?
19:41 Util (just curious)
19:41 rurban No idea
19:41 Util OK
19:41 rurban Sounds perfect for lazy lists to me
19:42 rurban but currently they have to catch an exception when the list is empty
19:42 Util Your email will be helpful; wider audience, and better medium for potential conversation.
19:42 rurban in the pir book the semantiocs is to autoreset, which does not work for lazy lists
19:43 rurban normal behavior is to return nil, and signal the end somehow
19:43 rurban I have 2 proposal's which are fine I think. It's just not ready for the next release
19:44 rurban the other big problem, the biggest problem is unicode slowdown. https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/1097
19:45 rurban Just fixed substr, but there must be more. My initial guess was imcc, but I don't see it in the profiler
19:45 rurban I'll try more profiling with this
19:45 Util Unicode is manditory, but ICU is just a long-standing convenience.
19:46 rurban ICU is not the problem. the iterator was. and now I think it's either perl6 or imcc
19:46 * Util just read the issue. nm about ICU
19:46 rurban or really parrot run-time. then it will be hard to improve
19:47 rurban utf8_substr is still 10x higher than the next op
19:49 rurban so this looks like the whole parser needs iterate over utf8 natively
19:49 rurban which is not doable for us
19:49 rurban I'll also profile moar for this case
19:51 Util Sounds good. I suspect that a deep dive into the iterator may yield other fruits; i.e. tickets/tasks for next year's GSoC
19:52 rurban Improving imcc is definitely one of my goals. -O2 was not that good with perl6 code.
19:53 rurban besides the calling convention, and ext_call
19:55 rurban and my build changes might bring in -lparrot for so's again. but only for —debugging
19:56 rurban so that you don't have to recompile all so's when installing
19:56 rurban just one, libparrot.dylib
19:56 rurban linux/bsd is okay, just windows/cygwin/darwin is broken
19:56 rurban *broken* : hard to debug
19:57 Util I am suprised that libparrot.dylib does not work with gdb. (Do I understand/remember correctly that that is the driver for the build change?)
19:57 rurban yes, gdb mostly
19:58 rurban I cannot work on branches alone, I will always have to apply my temp fixes
19:58 rurban And I also want —debugging=-g3 to work, and —ccld=gcc-mp-4.9
19:59 Util I do not object to static compilation being restored as an option, as long as it stays *optional*
20:00 rurban I found out that a static parrot_old behaves different to a dynamic parrot in the order of initialization
20:00 rurban immediate sub fixups are different. very strange
20:01 rurban but for debugging parrot_old is much easier, faster to rebuild
20:01 rurban I also tuned the Makefile a bit
20:01 rurban make all should build all, not just the core.
20:02 rurban and maybe check a Configure flag to turn of sharedlib
20:02 rurban even --parrot_is_shared has no negation
20:02 Util This is all in smoke-me/darwin-gdb-gh1096 and rurban/darwin-build-gh1096 ?
20:02 rurban yes
20:03 rurban the simply stuff in smoke-me/darwin-gdb-gh1096
20:03 Util OK
20:03 rurban much more in rurban/darwin-build-gh1096
20:03 rurban target is 7.0.0
20:03 Util OK
20:03 rurban support --parrot_is_shared=0 should be doable also
20:04 rurban or =no
20:04 rurban and fix rpath on darwin. need to wait for my ppc laptop for this
20:04 rurban so for the build changes I wait for my machines to actually test everything
20:05 rurban coros could go in earlier
20:05 rurban imcc unicode and quoting issues also earlier
20:06 rurban and yes, one more issue I'll bring up in an email: Illegal escape sequences
20:06 rurban do not silently skip illegal escape sequences anymore, die
20:06 Util Absolutely!
20:06 rurban This is esp for imcc bugs, when \o is transformed to o
20:06 Util rurban++
20:07 rurban FROGGS came with this last week
20:07 Util Right
20:07 rurban this is in the lexqnames branches
20:08 rurban I'm not sure how to deprecate the silently skip \ behavior
20:08 rurban I'll ask perl6. They are fighting with this, and they need to change their quoting style to single quotes for .lex now
20:09 Util I don't think that it needs deprecation. Was the "silently skip" behavior documented?
20:09 rurban single-quotes are very consistent within imcc, but not every statement accepts single quotes
20:09 rurban I hope this will be ready until saturday
20:10 rurban how about —debugging off by default?
20:10 rurban https://github.com/parrot/parrot/issues/1099
20:12 rurban I think this go in into 6.9.0
20:12 Util Why make that change?
20:12 rurban it's odd to have —debugging and not using it does the same
20:13 rurban and I want to expand macros via -g3
20:13 rurban gdb> macro expand Obj_is_PMC_TEST(object)
20:14 Util Are you saying that there are currently *no* differences in Configure'ing with vs without --debugging?
20:14 rurban I don't see any
20:14 rurban —debugging is on by default
20:15 rurban which is fine for a <1.0 release
20:15 rurban but not if >1.0
20:15 rurban init::optimize might be a bit different I guess
20:15 Util Let me ask that differently:
20:16 Util Are you saying that there are currently *no* differences in Configure'ing with --debugging=1 vs --debugging=0 ?
20:16 rurban lemme check...
20:17 rurban yes, there's none
20:19 rurban —debugging=0 does something
20:19 rurban but leaving out —debugging is the same as with —debugging
20:19 rurban —debugging=0 unsets cc_debug
20:20 Util That is my point.
20:20 rurban it's convenient for devs, maybe that's why
20:21 Util If you change the default for plain run of `perl Configure.pl`, that is OK, as long as:
20:21 kjs joined #parrotsketch
20:21 Util A. it is documented, and
20:21 rurban —optimize does something like —debugging=0 plus -DNDEBUG
20:22 Util B. our clients (Rakudo) can change *their* invocation of `perl Configure.pl ...` to recover the debug behaviour, if they choose.
20:22 rurban so the default is to set -g and leave out -DNDEBUG (use assertions)
20:22 rurban perl6 is fine. they just use —optimize
20:23 Util So, if you co-ordinate with the #perl6 team, then I have no further objection.
20:23 rurban my new default would be to set debugging to 0, but leave -g and leave out -DNDEBUG
20:23 Util They may be fine, but please make an explicit communication to them about this.
20:23 rurban so the same build flags, just change the misleading config hash entry
20:23 rurban ok
20:24 Util Thanks!
20:24 Util Anything else to discuss? From anyone?
20:24 rurban late already
20:24 rurban nope
20:24 Util Meeting adjourned.
20:24 rurban left #parrotsketch
20:29 Coke When the meetings are has no impact on me at this point. No worries.
20:30 Coke Please update the google calendar event, though.

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