Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #pdl, 2013-01-20

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00:27 Topic for #pdl is now Install PDL: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=install  | Book: http://pdl.perl.org/content/pdl-book-toc.html | Mailing list: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=mailing-lists | Pasting: http://scsys.co.uk:8001/pdl | Channel is logged by ilbot2: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/pdl/
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16:20 chm Hi vividsnow
16:20 chm This is Chris Marshall the current PDL release manager.
16:21 chm I'm also the developer on the perl OpenGL module which I would like to update to support modern OpenGL
16:21 chm Do you use the current Perl OpenGL module?
16:22 Mithaldu haha, i just uploaded a new video of stuff i'm doing in my bleeding edge branch :)
16:22 Mithaldu https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10190786/realtime_2.avi
16:22 Mithaldu next up is rendering to textures
16:24 chm Cool, Mithaldu,  are you also vividsnow?
16:24 Mithaldu nope
16:24 Mithaldu on github i'm this dude: https://github.com/wchristian/perl_shader_toy
16:24 chm Ok, just trying to get to know the community
16:24 Mithaldu and you actually emailed me a few weeks ago
16:24 Mithaldu you might wanna ask in #sdl too, i think
16:25 chm I know, I just didn't know if you were also vividsnow (I'm still sorting out how to get an official Nick on this IRC stuff)
16:25 Mithaldu you don't get official nicks
16:25 chm Oh, then I guess I can stop trying :-)
16:25 Mithaldu you set up a bouncer like znc and just never go offline
16:26 chm Thanks for the tip!
16:26 Mithaldu cheers :)
16:27 chm As for the OpenGL stuff, this Jan I'm trying to push out some languishing projects
16:27 chm i.e., things I've already figured out how to do just never finished off
16:27 chm I'm hoping to get to the OpenGL update as well.  I'm thinking it might
16:28 chm make sense to set up an experimental branch so that I don't break the existing
16:28 Mithaldu haha
16:28 chm users.  Do you think having a new module name would be useful?
16:28 Mithaldu i was thinking about releasing my modifications as OpenGL::Bleeding
16:28 chm Maybe OpenGL2
16:28 chm OpenGL::Modern?
16:28 Mithaldu if it's an API break, yes
16:28 Mithaldu otherwise, not really
16:29 chm The issue is the current OpenGL module is static built
16:29 chm and with lots of cruft.  I want to fix that but it could take a lot longer
16:29 chm to do the back compatibility part than to finish the new API and build support
16:29 chm A new name space would allow people to use the goodness until the
16:30 chm old module could be updated (presumably by using the new one behind the scenes)
16:30 Mithaldu OpenGL::V430 (or wherever we are?)
16:31 Mithaldu perl5i does this:
16:31 Mithaldu https://metacpan.org/release/perl5i
16:32 chm That looks like a good way to go
16:32 chm BTW, do you have any futher progress on your code branch?
16:33 Mithaldu not since the last email
16:33 Mithaldu i've been working on improving the shader and what i'm doing with it is working
16:33 Mithaldu so i had not much reason to edit opengl further
16:33 chm OK.  My push for updating OpenGL is to update TriD so it can actually work well
16:33 Mithaldu i might need to get back to it wen i start working on the render2texture thing
16:34 Mithaldu trid?
16:34 chm As in, it is difficult to do real, custom 3D plotting with axes and legends
16:34 chm PDL::Graphics::TriD
16:34 Mithaldu oh hey, that sounds nifty :)
16:34 chm The 3D plotting library in PDL based on an OpenGL drawing engine
16:34 Mithaldu kind of funny that pdl wants to use opengl and i want to use pdl for opengl
16:34 Mithaldu for matrix stuff)
16:35 chm The catch is that it is "too clever" and undocumented that I have not been able to deconstruct how to fix things
16:35 Mithaldu fun
16:36 chm Actually, I would like to streamline the PDL object architecture so it could be used instead of the OpenGL::Array which is ok but a bit limited and kind of clunky for heavy duty computation.  A unified approach could simplify things on both sides of the equation
16:37 chm Another project is completing 64bit data support for PDL objects
16:38 chm I would also like to implement some basic plotting back ends for plplot, pgplot,... that use opengl.  The neat part is when we could map them to/from OpenGL buffer objects!
16:39 Mithaldu yeah, that'd be some fun stuff
16:39 Mithaldu good marketing for perl :)
16:40 chm Have to get back to things here, nice talking...
16:40 chm o/
16:41 Mithaldu same :)
16:51 vividsnow hello, chm! yes, i'm using both OpenGL and PDL for real-time visualization project
16:56 chm hi
16:57 chm I was interested to know more about PDL+POGL use (always looking for testers/contributors/feedback)
16:59 chm As is the case in lots of open source projects, I'm trying to work around the problem of limited time by building interest in the projects and seeing if folks are interested in helping out---to speed things along
17:00 chm vividsnow: could you give me some more background on your use of PDL+OpenGL?
17:27 vividsnow joined #pdl
17:36 vividsnow Nice to hear that OpenGL will be updated ) i'm creating framework which gives ability to run OSC-controlled real-time visual sequence from videos, PDL-generated math art, fragment/vertex shader effects and etc.. it's based on top of OpenGL, PDL, Net::LibLO, GStreamer, AnyEvent, Moo. .. but still under construction - not ready for public github repo ) previously, i used PDL for numerical modeling in geophysics. Unfortunately i'm bad in C/XS development,
17:36 vividsnow but can test / feedback / write demos
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18:19 chm What does OSC-controlled mean?
18:21 chm As for development--test and feedback for problems is a huge help.
18:21 chm OpenGL and PDL are *big* so having more actual users checking things out gives better coverage
18:23 chm One thought to modernize PDL is to use something like Moo (not Moose for simplicity and you can use Moose if you wish)
18:23 chm Another problem with OpenGL is that you usually need some sort of graphics library to provide a window and opengl context.
18:24 Mithaldu just stick to shipping it with glut for that :)
18:26 chm I would like to move to a more general approach with OpenGL where it can make use of a number of diffferent GUI librarys.  I plan to stick to GLUT but to allow users to provide an alternate default if desired.  GLUT was selected initially because it was more portable and available than the original GLX+X11 bindings.
18:27 chm In fact, there are a number of other GUI toolkits available from Perl that provide the features needed to support OpenGL build and test.  There is no reason it has to be GLUT.
18:28 chm As for GLUT, the current work in POGL (Perl OpenGL) is a bit of a kludge as far as windows since we force an install of a FreeGLUT binary if needed.
18:28 chm That is ugly, doesn't work with 64bit perls directly.  I would like to move to an Alien::FreeGLUT approach but still no time....
18:30 chm Prima and Prima::OpenGL have the advantage of being a native perl GUI library that pretty much builds everywhere for perl and has some nice features.
18:37 Mithaldu hmm, i guess integration is a pretty nice thing to have
18:37 Mithaldu i never looked into how that's done in the first place
18:38 Mithaldu just went with what worked
18:43 vividsnow OSC is abbrev for Open Sound Control protocol. I'm also using glut functionality to process keyboard/mouse events and control window behavior ( blog post with preliminary thoughts: http://vzwe.tumblr.com/post/30682837738/audio-visual-composition-using-supercollider-perl  ), but of course glut seems to be low-level to build complex GUI )
18:43 chm Me too, then when the module started working better, folks wanted to do a lot more.  :-)
18:44 chm I would like to enable a number of GUI ports to work with OpenGL
18:44 chm GLUI is a nice toolkit built only requiring GLUT
18:44 chm Prima::OpenGL is nice
18:45 chm GTk+ has an OpenGL widget, I believe
18:45 chm wxWidgets has one as well
18:45 chm In fact, the only toolkit that doesn't seem to have a working win32 OpenGL widget is Tk
18:46 chm That was the original external GUI widget provided with PDL using an X11-specific hack implementation
18:48 Mithaldu hm, a blog i should follow :)
18:48 Mithaldu not much in there though :P
18:48 chm Which blog do you mean?
18:49 Mithaldu vividsnow's
18:49 chm Oh, yes.  I'm happy to see you both expanding PDL+POGL use.
18:50 chm I've been trying to get the perldl and pdl2 shells to work with the GLUT event loop
18:50 chm so you can type commands and have all your windows active as well.
18:50 chm The catch is getting it working on windows since they don't have a working select for
18:51 chm handles and I haven't come up with a workaround that doesn't lock up the CLI
18:51 chm It does work on cygwin and I hope to resolve the problem before the
18:51 chm coming PDL-2.4.12 release planned for Feb 2013
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18:53 vividsnow yea, but i hope I'll continue to post, after framework release )
18:57 chm That would be nice.  Also, we're always looking for PDL success stories for the web page http://pdl.perl.org/?page=users
19:13 vividsnow ok
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19:29 vividsnow don't know is it helpful: but at some point i replaced glut event loop by AnyEvent idle watcher which executes glutMainLoopEvent();
19:32 chm One of the alternatives was to use AnyEvent as well.  The trick is sorting out what is going on for win32 using the Perl Term::ReadLine.  Thanks for the thought
19:32 chm Heading out for a while. o/
19:35 rindolf Hi all.
19:41 vividsnow hi, rindolf
19:41 rindolf vividsnow: hi.
19:41 rindolf vividsnow: what's up?
19:41 rindolf Shouldn't Bender1 and Bender2 be given +os
19:57 jberger yeah probably
19:57 jberger I thought that they did
19:57 jberger wonder if something hiccoughed
19:59 jberger Bender1, Bender1 trust chm
19:59 jberger Bender1 trust chm
19:59 Bender1 But I don't trust you in #pdl, jberger
19:59 jberger hmmm
20:00 jberger something is borked
20:02 vividsnow joined #pdl
20:03 jberger hmmm
20:03 jberger I always forget irc stuff
20:07 vividsnow rindolf: chm gave good overview of pdl/pogl dev plans
20:07 rindolf vividsnow: nice.
20:08 jberger rindolf, it's perigrin that runs the benders right?
20:09 vividsnow btw, maybe someone already done worksheet interface to PDL shell ( as standalone gui app or plugin to emacs, padre.. )?
20:09 rindolf jberger: no idea.
20:10 jberger thought I would ask
20:10 jberger maybe Mithaldu knows?
20:10 Mithaldu ?
20:11 jberger do you know who runs the bender bots?
20:11 jberger they have forgotten who to trust
20:11 Mithaldu given they run on shadowcat systems i'd try asking apeiron or mst, in that order
20:11 rindolf Mithaldu: hi.
20:11 rindolf Mithaldu: what's up?
20:11 Mithaldu yo
20:12 Mithaldu watching Django
20:12 Mithaldu and worked on opengl
20:12 rindolf Mithaldu: nice.
20:12 rindolf Mithaldu: the movie Django, right?
20:12 Mithaldu enjoy: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/10190786/realtime_2.avi
20:12 Mithaldu yes
20:12 perigrin joined #pdl
20:12 rindolf Mithaldu: OK.
20:12 perigrin Bender2: trust jberger
20:12 Bender2 OK, perigrin
20:12 rindolf How is it on download sites so quickly?
20:13 perigrin Bender1: trust jberger
20:13 Bender1 OK, perigrin
20:13 jberger thanks perigrin
20:13 perigrin Bender1: trust run4flat
20:13 Bender1 perigrin, I already trust run4flat
20:13 rindolf https://metacpan.org/release/AI-Pathfinding-OptimizeMultiple - comments are welcome (though it's poorly documented).
20:13 perigrin Bender2: trust run4flat
20:13 Bender2 perigrin, I already trust run4flat
20:13 jberger oh, how did it remember him?
20:13 perigrin jberger: did you op him while they were here?
20:13 jberger I don't think I did
20:13 jberger no
20:13 perigrin no clue then
20:13 jberger oh well
20:13 Mithaldu rindolf: download sites?
20:13 perigrin possibly teh file didn't get saved properly
20:14 jberger no prob
20:14 rindolf Mithaldu: I mean pirated stuff.
20:14 jberger thanks perigrin
20:14 Mithaldu ah
20:14 perigrin it's just a giant yaml file ... so things get flakey
20:14 jberger perigrin, nice
20:14 rindolf Mithaldu: it's a new film.
20:14 jberger well I can take it from here
20:14 jberger Bender1, trust chm
20:14 Bender1 OK, jberger
20:14 Mithaldu that's because the piracy scene actually races for fastest uploads of new material
20:14 perigrin jberger: np ... mst and apeiron also have root trust.
20:14 perigrin if I'm not around.
20:14 jberger Bender2, trust chm
20:14 Bender2 OK, jberger
20:14 rindolf Mithaldu: ah.
20:14 jberger noted thanks
20:15 Mithaldu being fast means you get access and well, street cred
20:15 jberger I found you via: https://thirdlobe.com/svn/bender/Bender/trunk/Bender/lib/Bender/Config.pm
20:15 jberger its got your name
20:15 jberger Bender1, trust Mithaldu
20:15 Bender1 OK, jberger
20:15 jberger Bender2 trust Mithaldu
20:15 Bender2 OK, jberger
20:15 Mithaldu oh god, responsibility
20:15 jberger hahaha
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