Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #pdl, 2013-05-14

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Time Nick Message
00:11 pdurbin when I attened a talk by Larry four years ago he had this cartoon in one of his slide: Boy on a Stick and Slither (BOASAS) - http://archive.boasas.com/?c=1066
00:11 pdurbin slides*
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13:50 run4flat to chm, who I bet reads the logs: o/
13:50 run4flat :-)
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15:40 run4flat I'd like some feedback on this before I post it: https://gist.github.com/run4flat/5576943
15:40 run4flat thoughts?
15:42 perigrin Stop reading comments.
15:42 perigrin :)
15:42 run4flat for reference, see http://www.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/1e6xxv/best_programming_languages_for_physics/c9xre6v
15:42 run4flat but we have to reply to these
15:42 run4flat :-)
15:42 run4flat otherwise Perl just gets bruised
15:42 run4flat and, for what it's worth, I actually like some of my points
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15:42 run4flat they're not entirely religious
15:43 run4flat agh, it sure sucks that gist doesn't do word wrapping
15:44 run4flat There we go, converted (mostly) to markdown
15:44 run4flat now it reads a bit more nicely
15:45 perigrin I'd change the "My Use of Perl Code" analogy / analysis to
15:45 jberger go ahead and post it, but I kinda agree with perigrin, its not going to help
15:45 perigrin "I think Perl code" and not personalize it to anything the OP created.
15:45 jberger I would just post a general response to the OP and be done with it
15:45 perigrin he's biting you ... responding in kind just validates his attacks.
15:46 jberger "Perl takes a lot of heat from people most of whom have never used it, here are some pretty examples"
15:46 run4flat I could just post a generic response
15:46 run4flat like those
15:46 run4flat and perhaps post this sort of discussion on blogs.perl.org
15:47 jberger http://sedition.com/img/p/p/h/perl-and-python-hackers.png
15:47 jberger above I meant "here are some pretty Perl examples" not examples of people bashing Perl
15:48 perigrin run4flat: but yeah don't read the comments.
15:48 run4flat perigrin, normally I don't
15:48 run4flat :-)
15:49 jberger run4flat was defending an ally
15:49 run4flat perigrin, I am not sure how to handle the "script on steroids" bit
15:49 jberger a noble cause but futile in the lord-of-the-flies that is internet comment boards
15:49 perigrin run4flat: actually that's a valid comment
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15:49 perigrin Perl *is* Shell on Steriods
15:50 run4flat them gimme those steriods!
15:50 run4flat them be the best steriods I've ever seen!
15:50 perigrin It is also a dynamic Object Oriented language used to produce large scale applications in many environments.
15:50 perigrin Perl is a multi-paradigm language used in many places.
15:50 run4flat right
15:50 run4flat I think it should read, "Perl can be used as a shell script on steroids."
15:51 perigrin I thinnk the proper response there is "What exactly do you mean by this critique? Are you suggesting that Perl cannot scale because? Because I think this argument is exactly teh opposite."
15:52 perigrin The fact that Perl works both as "shell on steriods" for small utility scripts and can handle Alexa Top 100 websites
15:52 perigrin argues that Perl can and does scale to the majority of application tasks in today's marketplace.
15:53 run4flat perigrin, thank you.
15:53 run4flat :-)
15:53 run4flat I think I'll say that, plus something along the lines of, "Your examples of bad code are over 13 years old and the Perl community has moved beyond its terseness."
15:54 run4flat "Eric Raymond's piece is also 13 years old, and essentially compares Python 2 and Perl 4."
15:54 run4flat and leave it at that
15:54 perigrin s/beyond it's terness/on./
15:54 perigrin the Terness is appropriate in places.
15:55 run4flat yes, good point
15:55 sivoais I don't see how saying Perl is "shell on steroids" is a bad thing. Entire companies can run off a bunch of shell scripts. :-D Shell scripts give you a lot of power right at your fingertips. Perl just makes that power portable *and* scalable. And then throws in plenty of paradigms and reusability.
15:55 perigrin but we've grown as a community, and we understand that there are nuances to development.
15:55 run4flat right. that's essentially how I reinterpret that the guy said
15:55 perigrin honestly arguing Python vs Perl is silly
15:56 perigrin they're nearly identical in the grand scheme of things
15:56 sivoais It is silly. But there's too much unwarranted FUD
15:56 perigrin meh, posting comments on Reddit won't fix that.
15:57 perigrin doing things that people find cool will fix it
15:57 sivoais Yes, this is true. cool-stuff++
15:57 run4flat normally that's my focus.
15:57 run4flat :-)
15:58 perigrin really anything more than an "LOL you're right, Perl sucked 13 years ago. It's like looking at fashion from the 80s! Good thing our community has moved past that."
15:58 pdurbin for the power shell scripts: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/crimsonfu/2013-05-14#i_7065284
15:58 perigrin is giving the FUD too much validity.
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16:02 jberger perigrin, that's a great phrase
16:02 run4flat Here: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/248085?wr=on&submit=Format+it!
16:02 jberger run4flat++
16:03 perigrin run4flat++
16:03 run4flat Alright, I'm going to post it
16:03 run4flat thanks, guys
16:03 perigrin I'm not sure I think it's entirel *true* but hopefully it will be in 13 years :)
16:04 run4flat does truth really matter in these discussion?
16:04 run4flat ah well, that's over
16:04 run4flat now I can get back to work
16:05 run4flat first time I've wasted time like this in nearly two months. Feels good. :-)
16:05 jberger haha
16:06 jberger run4flat, if you want a good laugh, check this out
16:06 jberger the highlighted line is just a starting point
16:06 jberger see if you notice the multitude of problems
16:07 jberger then keep in mind that it was working correctly!! (that is, as expected)
16:07 jberger https://github.com/jberger/Galileo/blob/175c9cf7a1d32cf4e20ccf256a57e32fc8b9018c/lib/Galileo/files/templates/user_menu.html.ep#L8
16:07 * jberger facepalm
16:09 * run4flat is not confused, and is therefore confused
16:10 jberger look at the onclick handler then the link text
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16:10 run4flat So, it should have $url in there, too?
16:11 jberger add_user() => Add New Page
16:11 run4flat hahahaha!
16:11 run4flat amazing that it still worked
16:11 run4flat ... hmm
16:11 jberger yeah, cause I mucked up the function definitions TOO
16:12 jberger I was working on something in this code this morning and as soon as I noticed one bug all the others were bugs!
16:12 jberger AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:12 run4flat ha!
16:12 run4flat was the fix due to Fatalnix's examinations?
16:13 jberger it wasn't the cause of his problems, but in fixing those problems this section got a major overhaul
16:13 jberger and suddenly nothing was working!
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17:21 Topic for #pdl is now Install PDL: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=install  | Book: http://pdl.perl.org/content/pdl-book-toc.html | Mailing list: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=mailing-lists | Pasting: http://scsys.co.uk:8001/pdl | Channel is logged by ilbot2: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/pdl/today
19:24 run4flat Thinking aloud here...
19:24 run4flat I've been doing some numpy for work
19:24 run4flat in numpy, all methods are actually functions
19:24 run4flat so instead of $data->qsort->fft (or something silly like that)
19:25 run4flat you would say np.fft(np.sort(data))
19:25 run4flat I prefer the method based approach of PDL
19:25 run4flat but I like the notion of namespacing things
19:26 run4flat So, for example, FFTs are actually namespaced as np.fft.fft(data)
19:26 run4flat which brings me to an interesting idea for namespacing methods
19:26 perigrin I like to rhyme, I like my beats funky ... I'm spunky, I like my math libs numpy ...
19:26 run4flat oh, yeah, in case that wasn't obvious, numpy is Python's PDL
19:26 * perigrin knows
19:27 * lungching like his potato soup lumpy
19:27 run4flat Of course... I was saying that...
19:27 run4flat for posterity's sake...
19:27 run4flat for the logs! Yeah, that's it! For the logs!
19:28 perigrin $data->np::fft::fft()
19:28 run4flat so let's talk about random numbers. What if we could say $data->random->permute instead of $data->random_permute
19:28 run4flat (nb: random_permute doesn't exist)
19:28 run4flat perigrin, yes, but I hate the lack of terseness
19:28 perigrin $data->random::permute()
19:28 perigrin just stuff permute into package random;
19:28 run4flat But for PDL, at least as currently done, it would be $data->PDL::Random::permute()
19:29 sivoais and something like aliased wouldn't help :-/
19:29 perigrin right *{random::permute} = \&PDL::Random::permute();
19:29 run4flat but, suppose that $data->random returned a thin wrapper object containing the piddle?
19:29 sivoais ah, yes, symbol table :-P
19:29 perigrin I'd probably use Package::Stash
19:29 run4flat then $data->random would be a simple object
19:29 perigrin in real life.
19:30 run4flat well, whenever you use a PDL module, it just "pollutes" the the global PDL namespace
19:30 run4flat which has never actually given me trouble
19:30 * perigrin really needs to learn more about PDL
19:31 run4flat Still, I think it would be cool if we could keep the module spaces a bit cleaner by using these simple na
19:31 run4flat oop, power out
19:31 run4flat about to hibernate
19:31 run4flat o/
19:31 perigrin run4flat: that said I think you could look at how autoboxing works ... Perl5's OO system is flexible enough you ultimately would just need to shove aliases in the right package somewhere.
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19:43 Topic for #pdl is now Install PDL: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=install  | Book: http://pdl.perl.org/content/pdl-book-toc.html | Mailing list: http://pdl.perl.org/?page=mailing-lists | Pasting: http://scsys.co.uk:8001/pdl | Channel is logged by ilbot2: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/pdl/today
19:44 run4flat ah, good, battery backup power worked
19:44 run4flat perigrin, that might be a good idea.
19:45 run4flat Actually, that might be a mechanism for providing PDL methods to Perl lists
19:45 * run4flat contemplates
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