Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl11, 2013-10-19

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Time Nick Message
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01:07 bulk88 will_the_chill zooming and wrapping are acting a little bit strange, its not a biggie, on FF 12, https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=DCA201F1227DA3C2!327&authkey=!ANO94VxKoWcXuf4 wtc1 is largest (right bar wind up on bottom, not bad/normal/good for highly linear browsers), wtc2 is a ctrl-- it has scroll bars, wtc3 is another ctrl--, no more scroll bars, more zooming in beyond wtc1 doesn't
01:07 bulk88 cause scroll bars b/c right side bar is already on the bottom
02:27 Will_the_Chill bulk88: wow, thanks for that, I can totally see what you're saying and also I have no idea how to fix it.  :P
02:28 Will_the_Chill the html and CSS are pretty simple, I just copied the single-page site Github Pages auto-generated for me and then made it into a multi-page site.  the issue is I don't have access to a Windows machine to do testing, Linux only.
02:30 Will_the_Chill If you know about HTML and CSS, feel free to give it a look, relevant files are probably just index.html and stylesheets/stylesheet.css
02:30 Will_the_Chill https://github.com/wbraswell/rperl/tree/gh-pages
02:32 Will_the_Chill rurban: somehow RPerl got slurped into Softpedia, their editors must've read rperl.org because there is new descriptive wording on Softpedia that I did not write.  http://webscripts.softpedia.com/script/Programming-Methods-and-Algorithms-Python/RPerl-81478.html
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02:44 bulk88 will_the_chill, I dont do CSS, the only thing I know about it is many sites look better with it off :-D
02:46 Will_the_Chill bulk88: CSS is the new HTML, like ever since the millenium and stuffs!  what about the hipsters?!?
02:47 bulk88 CSS is evil, its not a standard, its more like regulations where what they didnt agree on became implementation specified behaviour, there is no official pixel for pixel test suite, every browser has endless CSS bugs for 1 decade+ now
02:48 bulk88 SVG or WebGL or Postscript would have been better than CSS
02:48 bulk88 fuck hipsters, I grew up on Windows 3.1
02:48 bulk88 without AOL
02:49 bulk88 And Windows 3.1 is all the GUI I need for life
02:49 bulk88 *Windows NT 3.1 :-D, since I dont want to BSOD every 2-3 hours
02:49 bulk88 and deal with mouse freezes
02:50 bulk88 I learned html before CSS existed, where the elements had a couple related properties in them, that is it
02:51 bulk88 DHTML/JS are a write once, test everywhere nightmare
02:52 bulk88 and that is why I stick to Perl :-D
02:53 Will_the_Chill I'm using CSS because that's what Github Pages gave me and it looks good.
02:53 Will_the_Chill I also grew up with WFW3.11, then I realized the nirvana of Linux and never looked back.
02:58 bulk88 I'll leave CSS to actual web devs who know what they are doing, Linux/unix's GUI is a joke IMO, X with a Window Manager, app launch times are that of booting all of the equivelent era windows, linux gui apps that wipe to empty grey after a click and stay solid gray for 5-10 seconds before they redraw, GTK/QT toolkits that need their own 1 GB ram stick just to themselves, internally polling to
02:58 bulk88 syscalls event loop designs that bring a cpu to its knees with background usage by open but not foreground windows
02:59 bulk88 GPU that spin up when you click on /home
02:59 bulk88 *GPU fans
03:01 Will_the_Chill wow, sounds like you've been using a grossly misconfigured Linux system.  I've used it for 15 years with no problems.
03:02 bulk88 Ubuntu and its forks
03:02 bulk88 before that I used Mandriva
03:02 Will_the_Chill Debian works fine, so does Ubuntu 10.04
03:02 Will_the_Chill haven't used Redhat in a decade but that was good back in the day
03:04 bulk88 the problem is, none of the programers of X/the GUI toolkits care about performance or quality, the only thing they are about is having multiple terminals open, if the terminal windows are fast and responsive, they are done, drop downs list boxes, menu bars, toolbars, text areas, tabs, who cares about those, real linux people dont use them
03:04 bulk88 and the whole X uses loopback sockets architecture problem
03:05 bulk88 so each app is doing VNC or RDP to the Desktop within the same CPU :-(
03:06 bulk88 not C function calls
03:09 Will_the_Chill wow, like I said, you must be using a grossly misconfigured version of Linux.  I've never had any of those problems in all my years of Linux-only everything.
03:10 bulk88 even if you tell me to use a different window manager that isn't elephant called KDE or Gnome, all the apps I will use will load GTK or QT anyway, so again with the busy cursor with no CPU and disk light flashing (I think the idiots put timeouts somewhere in this graphics libraries's initialization code)
03:11 Will_the_Chill I don't know what to tell you.  it sounds like you're describing a different operating system than Linux.
03:12 bulk88 I dont use the lastest and most expensive PCs, I don't expect my desktop to be using asmany resources as a FPS game with no user activity which is what ubuntu is like
03:12 Will_the_Chill Ubuntu 10.04 is fine.
03:12 Will_the_Chill no fancy stuff to slow it down on old hardware.
03:12 Will_the_Chill I've got Xubuntu running nicely on old 486 machines
03:13 Will_the_Chill my laptop has 2GB RAM and 2 800MHz cores, running Ubuntu 10.04 just fine, does everything I need.
03:14 Will_the_Chill I think I paid about $150 for the laptop at Discount Electronics (an Austin chain)
03:14 Will_the_Chill I only use old hardware and old operating systems.
03:14 Will_the_Chill so I'm especially confused by your problems.
03:15 Will_the_Chill because if you are also using old hardware and old operating systems then you should be experiencing something similar to what I am.
03:15 Will_the_Chill which you are not.
03:19 bulk88 http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/11/16/1330233/the-200-line-linux-kernel-patch-that-does-wonders the comments have a long story about whether linux should be for GUIs or for network IO servers
03:20 bulk88 the general concenses is linux is tuned to be a server, not a GUI
03:23 bulk88 another problem with linux is, there is no unified way to put a thread to sleep, you have signals, you have select, your have pthreads, you have epoll, and you can't mix any of them into the same deschedule the thread syscall
03:23 Will_the_Chill yeah I read that on Slashdot when it originally came out
03:23 Will_the_Chill I've been using Linux as my only desktop forever, I call total BS
03:24 Will_the_Chill I make extensive use of both the actual GUI components as well as multiple terminals.
03:24 Will_the_Chill In fact, in my screenshots you can see in the lower-right corner it shows my 6 desktops, with the last one being full of terminals
03:25 Will_the_Chill Linux is awesome for BOTH desktop AND server usage
03:25 bulk88 does you laptop have SSD or mech HD?
03:27 bulk88 waitpid can't be combined with select on linux
03:27 Will_the_Chill considering my laptop is the oldest Dell I could find, the answer is of course a super crappy mechanical HDD
03:28 Will_the_Chill the bottom of my Latitude D630 says it is designed for Windows XP
03:29 bulk88 I personally use a Latitude D620 since it came out in 2006, every time it physically breaks I buy a new old one off ebay for lots of spare parts, so I'm on 3rd chassis by now
03:29 Will_the_Chill there you go, same thing.
03:29 bulk88 I didnt see your post above before I hit enter
03:29 Will_the_Chill if we're using the same dang hardware and you're having a radically different software experience, I must re-state my claim that you are using grossly misconfigured softwared.
03:30 bulk88 are you using Gnome 3?
03:30 Will_the_Chill Gnome 2.30.2
03:30 Will_the_Chill Ubuntu 10.04.4
03:30 Will_the_Chill build 6/25/2010
03:30 Will_the_Chill runs like a dream
03:30 Will_the_Chill super secure, stable, fast, FREE AND OPEN SOURCE
03:31 Will_the_Chill can't beat that with a bat
03:31 Will_the_Chill not even a Poindexter Bar Bat (tm)
03:31 bulk88 why are you running Gnome 2 and not 3?
03:31 bulk88 or KDE?
03:31 Will_the_Chill because I'm using Ubuntu 10.04
03:31 Will_the_Chill made in 2010
03:32 Will_the_Chill 3.5 years ago
03:32 Will_the_Chill old, stable, fast
03:32 bulk88 your cheating
03:32 Will_the_Chill oh bologna
03:32 bulk88 well so am I with Win XP
03:32 Will_the_Chill now you've run out of actual technical arguments
03:32 Will_the_Chill and are just being silly
03:33 Will_the_Chill go use Ubuntu 10.04 or stop trash-talking Linux
03:33 Will_the_Chill cuz your case is invalid my friend
03:33 bulk88 I used a Ubuntu with Gnome 3
03:33 Will_the_Chill Also, I've got a super-new high-end laptop for work with the latest and greatest Ubuntu fancy-ware on there, it runs just as nicely as Ubuntu 10.04 on my beloved old piece of crap Latitude D630
03:34 bulk88 then tried Knubuntu, even slower
03:34 Will_the_Chill well you were doing it wrong
03:34 Will_the_Chill so of course you had a bad experience
03:34 bulk88 I used the lastest ISO
03:35 bulk88 now I use puppylinux if I have to
03:36 Will_the_Chill if you do it wrong then you get wrong results
03:36 bulk88 it still have busy cursor issues when navigating folders and starting apps, but 1/4 less than the flashy Ubuntus
03:36 Will_the_Chill I've done Linux wrong before, now I do it right
03:37 bulk88 I never get busy cursor or a delay in file navigation on WinXP
03:38 bulk88 I'll try your 10.04 this weekend and see how it goes
03:45 Will_the_Chill It is, specifically, this one:  http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/10.04.4/ubuntu-10.04.4-desktop-i386.iso
03:46 Will_the_Chill if the file explorer has lag, try turning off the icon previews.  it scans all the files and tries to show a cool icon with the contents of the file, that will cause file lag sometimes.
03:47 Will_the_Chill that's the only thing I can think of that might affect you.
03:47 Will_the_Chill otherwise, if your laptop is the same as mine then it should run nicely.
03:49 Will_the_Chill if you want it to run really fast, use the bare-bones Xubuntu which has XFCE window manager instead of Gnome: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/xubuntu/releases/10.04/release/xubuntu-10.04-desktop-i386.iso
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