Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl11, 2016-04-25

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08:30 rurban I've published an overview of the current maintainer fails: http://blogs.perl.org/users/rurban/2016/04/overview-of-current-maintainer-fails.html
08:30 rurban "So in summary, only p5p and ether are failing to do their job.
08:30 rurban With the core cpan modules there are some typical outliers, nothing dramatic. cpan itself looks very healthy, whilst p5p looks totally dead."
08:39 lizmat rurban: what are you trying to achieve with that overview ?
08:40 rurban numbers to prove my point. it's also a good overview of current problems
08:41 lizmat are you interested in seeing these problems fixed in perl 5 ?
08:41 rurban p5p still thinks that everything is okay that "I" am having a personality problem. which is wrong
08:42 rurban of course they need to be fixed, and we rely in cpan cooperation
08:42 rurban we cannot rely on p5p cooperation as they broke all bridges and are broken within
08:42 lizmat "rely in cpan cooperation" ?
08:42 rurban on
08:42 lizmat ah
08:42 lizmat who is "we" ?
08:42 rurban that people are able to maintain their modules
08:43 rurban we who are working with perl
08:45 rurban p5p is pushing heavily for their vilification strategy, and came up with a total ridicolus new maintainer guy
08:45 lizmat should people instead rely on cooperation with you ?
08:45 rurban sure
08:45 rurban currently I am one of the very few who can be trusted
08:45 lizmat what if people don't agree with your fixes ?
08:46 rurban than they can complain about it
08:46 lizmat and what will happen then, will you accept their patches ?
08:46 rurban if they are better, yes.
08:46 lizmat what if they think their patches are better than yours and you don't agree ?
08:47 rurban i will not react as a dick as p5p usually does. because i have the technical insights into the problems and the forewsight what needs to be done
08:47 rurban they can prove it, I'm open
08:47 lizmat if you have the foresight of what needs to be done, why look at other people's patches at all then ?
08:47 rurban usually their patches are worse, sometimes they are better
08:48 rurban i need to see what else p5p will break with what they are doing. they broken now given/when smartmatch
08:48 rurban next breakage will be "modern perl", davem's signatures
08:48 lizmat what if I think my patches are better and you think they're not, and I call you an idiot ?
08:49 rurban no problem. mentioned in the cperl manpage.
08:49 lizmat link?
08:49 rurban you are free to think I am an idiot. maybe you are right, but kost likely you didn't understand the issue
08:50 rurban perl5 are usually very very childish, so I expect immature behavior.
08:50 rurban perl5 people
08:51 rurban the only problem with that is the bandwaggoning going wich prohibits discussion on the real problems.
08:52 rurban like people think they need to protect demerqh from my hash table criticsm which prevented them from fixing it
08:53 lizmat What if I think I understand the problem exactly and you still don't like them, and I go public calling you stupid, clueless and an idiot incapable of understanding the finer points?
08:53 rurban perl5 still has the single worst hashtable of all other implementations. I haven't found a worse one. but on wikipedia someone wrote that the perl5 hashtable is extremely good and "heavily optimized". very disturbing
08:53 rurban than maybe you are right, and I was wrong
08:54 lizmat What if I s/I/p5p/ ?
08:54 rurban I have a big list of possible COMMITTERS and maintainers for cperl, so you can persuade someone else.
08:54 rurban p5p is unfortunately not fixable in its current state
08:54 lizmat why?
08:54 rurban the people are okay but the community and forum is toxic
08:55 lizmat but we have a new pumpking now and the option of starting with a clean slate
08:55 rurban there are only 4 bad apples at the top causing the problems and being a net negative. the other crying kids using foul language and having no idea generally should be no problem normally
08:55 lizmat the first thing you do, is call him " ridicolus new maintainer guy"
08:56 lizmat isn't that at least a bit toxic ?
08:56 rurban the new pumpking is actually the 2nd worst of all possible selections.
08:56 lizmat would you have been a good selection?
08:56 rurban i suggested jhi
08:57 rurban I would have been a bad selection because p5p managed to vilify me. the problem is not the person, the problem is the process which is broken.
08:57 lizmat what if a suggested pumpking doesn't want to be pumpking, because he doesn't want to interact with toxic people ?
08:58 rurban and since this was not fixable and the perl foundation even awarded the guy who called one innocent user asshole at YAPC, against my criticsm, the perl foundation also has no idea and should step down. it's also their fault
08:59 rurban jhi said that to me, yes.
08:59 rurban they say I am toxic. which is wrong, because I was trying to help them
08:59 rurban all they want os going on like before without any trouble
08:59 rurban is going...
09:00 lizmat what if I tell you that I think you're toxic, but I'm still trying to help you ?
09:00 rurban which leads to the death of perl5 as already proven
09:00 rurban then you are wrong. I am the one who is fixing the bugs and problems other are creating.
09:01 lizmat so I shouldn't help you ?
09:01 rurban I am the one who is telling exactly what the problem is. even if they dont wamt to hear it. i was silent with parrot for 5 years, which led to its death. I shouldnt have done that. Im doing it now with perl5
09:01 lizmat being silent ?
09:01 rurban sure you should help me. everybody should help me.
09:02 rurban what?
09:02 rurban why silent?
09:02 lizmat "i was silent with parrot for 5 years, which led to its death. I shouldnt have done that. Im doing it now with perl5"
09:02 lizmat what is "it" ?
09:03 rurban maybe write something. currently I am the only one who even dares to critice problem publicly because they were so successful calling me toxic. that's their strategy.
09:03 rurban but it would be toxic to support the nonsense and destruction which is going on. and all the lies.
09:04 rurban you cannot do muach against incompetence, but it's striking that the cpan maintainers are all competent, and on p5p nothing rational happens
09:05 rurban they only successful strategy to fix it is to dissolve p5p, and give them their role back that they can fulfill. porting perl5. NOT managing the language. this did not work out
09:05 lizmat what does "managing the language" mean ?
09:06 rurban from the very beginning not. I've looked back since 2001 they are mostly doing harm, and only in 3 isolated cases good
09:06 rurban remove features. add features, change features.
09:06 rurban everything which is not related to porting and bugfixes.
09:07 lizmat so, basically, you want everything to stay the same ?
09:07 rurban some exceptions in certain subsystems need to be made, as some maintainers are excellent in maintaining their parts. such as jhi with config and architecture, khw with regex and unicode, yves with helping helping regexp, and so on
09:08 rurban not I wanted the new pumpking to take away the commit permissions of the porters
09:08 rurban come up with a development process. look every other dynamic language already had the very same problems.
09:09 rurban they vilified their compiler guys, they threw him out, they want to stay in power.
09:10 rurban but most developed a proper feature process. and php is the only project which was successful in that
09:10 rurban but at least the others are having a process
09:10 lizmat how would you describe the current process ?
09:10 rurban there is none
09:11 lizmat surely there must be some process as there *are* changes to the language ?
09:11 rurban if you are committer you do what you want, if you are not you need to persuade p5p, and this is problematic because they rarely have technical competence to understand it. see syber
09:12 rurban if you fuck up, as father or zefram usually do. they might get a slap by rjbs, but nothing happens. the problem is announced as feature, or as experimental
09:12 rurban criticism is silenced and everyone is happy with the success
09:13 lizmat isn't that what is called "benefit of the doubt" ?
09:13 rurban then the marketing lies (only with rjbs, the others were at least honest), take over, and the new bug is announced as great new feature, which helps everybody. we are the best
09:14 rurban sawyer x will do the same with the upcoming davem signatures, which are a dead end. he will announce "a new age of modern perl".
09:15 lizmat so you think a pumpking should not do any marketing ?
09:15 rurban discussion on this already happened, and it was a disaster. they have no idea what they are doing and talking about. at least davem might have read my code, but did not understand it.
09:16 rurban he at least understood why I was against zeframs @_ damage when he came up with that idea.
09:17 rurban and he understands the goto problem. but p5p will decide wrongly on fast tail calls, same as e.g. python did, and p5p did before. so no proper tail calls, stack problems with recursing longer lists, slow.
09:17 lizmat seems to me this last thing is not about language, but about performance tweaks?
09:17 rurban automatic tail call elimination will not be useful
09:18 rurban no, the language design. look up the scheme vs lisp fights on this.
09:18 rurban since p5p has no idea about language design they should not interfere. did they interfere with perl6? thanksfully not
09:19 rurban how perl6 manage to come up with so many capable people, without any p5p guy interfering? amazing
09:19 rurban just cut them out. they are toxic
09:20 lizmat do you consider yourself to be toxic ?
09:20 rurban no, for sure not.
09:20 rurban everybody who knows me loves to work with me
09:21 lizmat do you know of people, other than in p5p, who think you are toxic ?
09:21 rurban I worked successfully for over 30 years in open source
09:21 rurban and very successfuly administered big projects
09:21 rurban no
09:22 rurban in formula 1 one manager thought that I should be forbidden to talk to customers, but he eventually got booted, and I won.
09:22 ribasushi rurban, lizmat: you are both using different definitions of "toxic"
09:22 rurban I was the formula 1 support guy. but I was too blunt.
09:22 rurban customers loved my bluntness and technical competence. my managers not so
09:22 lizmat rurban: do you think you are too blunt towards p5p ?
09:22 ribasushi without clarifying that you won't get anywhere
09:23 lizmat ribasushi: this is not about the argument
09:23 rurban i started to be VERY blunt lately, yes, on purpose. because the ship was sinking, and I knew how to save it
09:23 lizmat if I would like to have an argument, I can have one at any time with woolfy
09:23 rurban same think as happened with parrot before
09:23 rurban thing
09:24 rurban and it was a big risc I was taking. also for me professionally. because I knew they were starting to counterattack me personally, as they did.
09:24 rurban thanksfully I am in a unique position, so I can afford that silly fights for a god cause
09:24 rurban good cause
09:26 rurban but I didn't think that even outsiders from the perl foundation will raise up to attack me, against all facts and arguments. so when even the foundation is broken, it's hard to save perl5. so long live cperl and perl5.
09:26 rurban i'm fine with that
09:26 lizmat well, it feels to me that you're *not* fine with that
09:27 lizmat because you took a lot of effort creating a blog post with all the things wrong in p5p now
09:27 rurban I'm not fine with p5p acting like they are actually able to manage the language. they are not.
09:27 lizmat if it is about proving a point, you want at least people acknowledging that point, no ?
09:28 rurban they should give up doing even more damage
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09:28 rurban p5p needs to admit that their actions are harmful. that perl5 is dying because of them.
09:28 rurban they have no idea what they are doing, even if some single people do know very well. it's the forum which is wrotten
09:28 lizmat how do you know perl5 is dying ?
09:29 rurban because the good people are going away, because no progress is happening, even with perl6 leading a clear path to the future.
09:29 rurban because of the toxic community.
09:30 lizmat so community === p5p ?
09:30 rurban everybody tell's me, "oh yes, those jerks over there."
09:30 lizmat I thought you said only p5p were toxic ?
09:30 rurban p5p community. cpan is mostly fine, but the toolchain is in danger also
09:31 rurban and p5p is influencing cpan with the features they are removing, not properly supporting, causing "downstream pain"
09:31 rurban and p5p is doing that willingfully, fully knowing that their actions are harmful.
09:31 rurban which is intolerable
09:33 lizmat ok, so assume *you* were the new pumpking
09:33 lizmat what would *you* do ?
09:34 rurban I am the current maintainer of cperl, the perl5 continuation effort
09:34 rurban a perl5 with classes, blabla
09:34 lizmat so you already are the pumpking, is what you're saying ?
09:34 rurban fixing all the damage p5p piled up since 2001 and will pile up in the future.
09:35 rurban I'm maintening cperl, yes.
09:35 lizmat that's still no answer to: what would *you* do if you were the p5p pumpking *now*
09:35 lizmat brb, need to check out room
09:36 rurban not p5p perl, but p5p perl cannot be trusted. next step needs to be packages for debian, redhat as proper alternative to perl. because perl5 is not really secure anymore. people need to use cperl. and they will do.
09:37 rurban regardless of p5p says. p5p stands for less security, more memory, less performance, less development, toxic behaviour, and constant infighting.
09:38 rurban I will NOT be the next p5p pumpking. p5p needs to be dissolved. I'm the the cperl maintainer
09:38 rurban what the language should is up to the perl foundation
09:38 rurban my recommendation was to setup a perl6 like development process
09:39 rurban p5p should do the PORTING, not the perl5 language
09:40 rurban perl5.language can do the language discussions, but using a mailinglist will hardly succeed. see how the others did that. not a mailing list!
09:41 rurban very easy to look at the perl6, python, php, lua, ruby development process over there.
09:41 rurban the have formal RFC's, backed up with actual implementations
09:42 rurban I only took the lead, because I'm apparently the only one who is able to do that. davem is a very capable analyst and developer, but has no idea what to do. he needs to be told.
09:43 rurban from outside there are very good developers. 2 russians are much better than anybody in p5p.
09:44 rurban xx
09:44 rurban vincent pit is much better than anybody in p5p. sukria is. but sawyer is taking sukria's merits and acts like he is the one
09:46 rurban anyway, perl5.24 was for 95% an excellent effort, until rjbs and sprout came up with their harmful actions
09:46 rurban those people are good, but the top 4 need to be removed.
09:47 rurban I was at 5 negative guys last year, but one guy became net positive in the meantime, and I am lucky to have him
09:47 rurban not telling any names
09:48 rurban the perl foundation needs to come up with a strategy to save perl5.  because right now it's fully dead even if they will spin it as totally succesful.
09:49 rurban but they did not. so bye perl5
09:53 rurban and the perl foundation also did a very bad job with perl6 + parrot, letting it die, supporting moar and not helping the parrot revival efforts. only parrot has all platform support and good thread support, moar does not. but the moar guys got away with their discrediting and lying efforts. which killed parrot. A shame. I didn't say anything then.
09:54 rurban so in summary, the fish always smells at the top.
09:56 * lizmat is back
09:58 rurban i wrote something, and now I'm going to lunch. if you have questions, I can back everything up.
10:00 rurban I explicitly didn't blog about all the perl5 problems, so perl5 can save face. but with their actions I cannot hold back anymore, and need to prove my arguments
10:00 rurban because their arguments were I am all smoke and mirror, attacking me personally
10:15 lizmat perhaps it is an idea to consider "cperl" and "perl 5" sister languages
10:17 lizmat rurban: you are already consider yourself pumpking of cperl
10:17 lizmat so that part is already in place
10:23 lizmat from what you tell us, you already have a thriving user base
10:35 lizmat so maybe it's time to call a ceasefire
10:35 lizmat the way I see it, is that p5p cannot be changed to suit your ideas
10:36 lizmat sometimes, there is a point in life when you need to give up
10:36 lizmat you've done your best, there's no one who will blame you for giving up
10:36 lizmat because everybody can see that you tried
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10:41 lizmat rurban: did you see my last 9 lines ?
10:46 rurban nope, can you repeat?
10:46 rurban wait, I can look at the public log
10:48 rurban "p5p cannot be changed to suit your ideas" really? do you think anybody else thinks also that way? outside of the close friends of p5p of course
10:50 rurban And since perl5 has now officially declared bankruptcy with the adoption of sawyer x as pumpking I need to strength the cperl efforts, because we need to rely on "a" proper perl5 language implementation. a lot of companies need to work with a professionally managed perl, and not one managed by an incompetent buddy club.
10:51 rurban but thanks for trying :)
10:51 rurban and now you go one with your censorshop efforts, but not here.
10:55 lizmat what's a censorshop ?
10:58 rurban censorship: citing a wrong uncivilty rule, where I never was uncivil. then changing that to a new bad faith rule to censor and block me. In fact the ones who were actually uncivilized never got punished with this CoC. go figure. pure angst.
10:59 lizmat so you think I'm trying to censor you ?
10:59 lizmat here ?
11:00 lizmat "and now you go one with your censorshop efforts, but not here."
11:01 lizmat ??
11:01 lizmat I mean, if you want to me to quit from this channel, you only have to say the word
11:02 lizmat is this what you want ?
11:14 lizmat rurban: is this what you want ?
11:18 * lizmat is unfortunately unable to continue this exchange at this point due to travelling
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11:37 rurban No, I was saying that everything I will publish about this process will be censored, with the backup of p5p and tpf.
11:37 rurban they are obviously trying to minimize harm done.
11:42 rurban https://www.reddit.com/r/cperl/comments/4gcwvi/what_to_do_with_p5p/
11:43 rurban p5p censored me, rt tickets are blocked, reddit blocked me, and blogs.perl.org will be censoring me.
11:44 rurban maybe even mst will block this channel
11:45 rurban so there's a lot of fear, which is solved by aggression.
11:46 rurban I said that you are part of the system who is supporting the active censorship efforts to minimize harm done. instead of trying to come up wth a way to solve the problems
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22:30 travis-ci perl11/cperl#991 (master - 5bbbd22 : Reini Urban): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125672064
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23:33 travis-ci perl11/cperl#992 (smoke/gh7-signatures - c60a0e6 : Reini Urban): The build is still failing. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125687865

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