Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl11, 2016-04-26

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Time Nick Message
00:14 esaym153 joined #perl11
00:17 mattp_ joined #perl11
04:43 esaym153 heh, been reading Perl 6 and Parrot: https://books.google.com/books?id=delHeXNUCOEC&printsec=frontcover
04:55 willthechill esaym153: I wish Dan Sugalski was still around, I never got to meet him
04:56 esaym153 willthechill: I'd be curious to see where all the early 2000 perl devs are right now
04:57 esaym153 Or know if they are even still involved in IT, perhaps perl ran them away :p
05:03 willthechill yes I also want to know what happened to Malcolm Beattie, who invented B::C and B::CC
05:04 willthechill ingy's old sidekick and creator of Inline::CPP Neil Watkiss disappeared, but at least he reappeared for long enough to give rurban the maintenance rights to Inline::Filters, so that my RPerl-required changes could be officially released to CPAN
05:46 rurban joined #perl11
06:15 rurban1 joined #perl11
07:54 sten joined #perl11
08:22 lizmat rurban: I have no idea why you think I am talking for TPF
08:22 lizmat If anything, *I* decided to talk to you wrt the situation with p5p
08:23 lizmat I was even considering coming over to you to discuss things in person
08:23 lizmat because I know things work out better IRL generally
08:24 lizmat all of this Perl stuff I do, only *costs* me time and money
08:25 lizmat and a lot of emotions
08:26 lizmat why do I do this?
08:26 lizmat because of my love of the perl mindset
08:28 lizmat *that* is the itch I scratch
08:29 lizmat for the less informed: https://www.reddit.com/r/cperl/comments/4gcwvi/what_to_do_with_p5p/
08:30 lizmat I'm coming to the conclusion that any discussion with *you* is a waste of time
08:31 lizmat you will twist and turn anything anybody will say to you, to meet your twisted view of the world that everybody is against you
08:31 lizmat I have tried to be a middle person here
08:32 lizmat multiple people have ensured me you have valid points
08:32 lizmat but you cannot get them across without abrasive innuendo's
08:33 lizmat if you had been Einstein, we would still have Newtonian mechanics
08:34 lizmat rurban: if you are as smart as you claim you are, you should realize this is not getting you the results you want
08:34 lizmat unless the results you want are the destruction of Perl
08:36 lizmat which from your actions online, can only be construed as an extension of your own self-destructive tendencies
08:36 lizmat with this I have said what I wanted to say
08:36 lizmat I will now get myself out of this equation
08:37 lizmat there are better things I can do with my time, like working on making Perl 6  a success
08:37 lizmat left #perl11
08:56 rurban1 lizmat: I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that *I* am the problem. I am actively solving the problem. p5p is doing everything they can to keep their status, and keep do everything to destroy perl5. They are not aware of that, so someone needs to tell them. Attacking the messenger is typical but does more harm than good.
08:58 rurban1 And now choosing Sawyer X as pumpking is just ridiculous. How can this do any good? Right now they are again calling for more censorship and removal for criticsm. How can you explain that?
08:59 willthechill well lizmat signed out, so I doubt there will be any reply from her
09:00 rurban1 The results p5p is producing is causing the destruction of perl5. With me or without me. I tried to help, but they chose to fight me. Aggressively
09:00 rurban1 She can read the log
09:04 rurban1 How can she come to the idea that I'm having "self-destructive tendencies"? I am fixing the problem p5p is causing. They are self-destructive. Attacking me personally does harm, because apparently people are believing rather p5p than me. Which will cause me to defend myself, which is easily done, because I do have the arguments, which I held back for years. But attacking me in this was will now lead to their public des
09:05 rurban1 Twisting the facts seldom works out.
09:22 travis-ci perl11/cperl#993 (smoke/relprep - 93f3b8a : Reini Urban): The build failed. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125781681
09:41 stephen joined #perl11
09:48 mattp_ rurban1: you raise a good point in the lack of a process in feature development in perl (vs pep etc)
10:14 travis-ci perl11/cperl#994 (smoke/relprep - cea0341 : Reini Urban): The build is still failing. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125784047
10:53 travis-ci perl11/cperl#995 (smoke/relprep - ca5f1b3 : Reini Urban): The build is still failing. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125786061
11:15 travis-ci perl11/cperl#996 (smoke/relprep - b617f7e : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125800668
12:16 travis-ci perl11/cperl#997 (smoke/relprep - 0da42e3 : Reini Urban): The build passed. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125806418
12:29 rurban1 mattp_: somehow p5p needs to be fixed, and the best is to add a formal process, and take away their feature perms
12:31 travis-ci perl11/cperl#998 (smoke/relprep - 5117de4 : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125809810
12:31 travis-ci perl11/cperl#998 (smoke/relprep - 5117de4 : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125809810
12:33 travis-ci perl11/cperl#998 (smoke/relprep - 5117de4 : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125809810
12:33 travis-ci perl11/cperl#998 (smoke/relprep - 5117de4 : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125809810
12:46 mattp_ rurban1: I think you've already been mlehmann'd for better or worse. realistically if there were to be any communication of your points itd need to be from someone not you to avoid a kneejerk - finding common ground as is ... looks unlikely
13:18 rurban joined #perl11
13:19 travis-ci perl11/cperl#999 (smoke/relprep - a5c0a86 : Reini Urban): The build was canceled. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125817297
13:41 sten joined #perl11
14:09 travis-ci perl11/cperl#1000 (smoke/relprep - 5950442 : Reini Urban): The build failed. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125829152
14:31 rurban mattp_: yes, I attacked them because they were doing too much harm. But professionally. I was never lehmann. He told them they were assholes. I'm a civil and professional guy and sticked to the facts
14:33 rurban And I had to do that, because I stayed silent with parrot, which went down in a very similar way. Now it's dead, and moar is not better.
14:34 rurban And with p5p it went on for 15 years now like this, which is way too long.
14:35 rurban And now it's a critical period, where perl5 finally will become a modern perl. with types, sigs and classes
14:35 rurban And :const
15:24 travis-ci perl11/cperl#1001 (smoke/relprep - 785c8ff : Reini Urban): The build has errored. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125857725
16:18 travis-ci perl11/cperl#1002 (smoke/relprep - e6788df : Reini Urban): The build is still failing. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125860282
17:33 rurban joined #perl11
17:34 rurban bulk88: on windows mkppport fails in libyaml I cannot repro. a windows blocker. do you want to have a look?
17:35 rurban and I'm not sure if the B-C tests work now on windows
18:14 bulk88 rurban i need more details how to reproduce, what is libyaml?
18:14 bulk88 non perl C lib, a cpan mod or what?
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20:59 rurban joined #perl11
21:36 rurban See https://ci.appveyor.com/project/rurban/cperl/build/5.22.2.1137/job/egihtuvr3f1xpmhm
21:37 rurban looks mkppport never copies ppport.h to cpan/YAML-LibYAML/LibYAML
21:37 rurban but only on appveyor
21:38 rurban https://ci.appveyor.com/project/rurban/cperl/build/5.22.2.1137/job/egihtuvr3f1xpmhm#L1152
21:39 rurban It's a new core module I added (YAML::XS)
21:46 rurban1 joined #perl11
22:40 mattp_ rurban1: just a point, id be more hurt and offended if you told me I was incompetent than if you called me an asshole, by far :)
22:42 rurban1 well, if your critical decision did damage the project very badly, and you still did that in full knowledge of the criticsm, then you should not be able to do such harm. then it's actually required to criticise the harm done.
22:43 rurban1 and this happens on p5p for over 15 years. almost every critical decision is wrong
22:43 rurban1 objectively wrong, not subjectively
22:45 rurban1 if these guys did that because they have a personality problem, or no idea what they doing, it doesn't matter. it's the endeffect which is the problem. destroying the project
22:46 mattp_ rurban1: thats certainly another issue. but my claim was the situation is similar to mlehmann at this point
22:46 rurban1 no, lehmann reacted outragious. me not.
22:46 rurban1 he is pretty silly in his reactions
22:48 rurban1 but they made the situation the same, yes. that's their strategy. avoiding any technical discussion, going after the messenger who calls for the change of the development process, and is asking for the removal of the commit perms of the top 4.
22:50 rurban1 basically I am asking for the change of perms for p5p at all, putting an intermediate process for featuresin between, so p5p cn continue doing the job they are doing, and they are doing this quite well. it's 95% of the work.
22:50 travis-ci perl11/cperl#1003 (smoke/relprep - 99e9974 : Reini Urban): The build was fixed. https://travis-ci.org/perl11/cperl/builds/125960101
22:51 rurban1 but they need to be stopped doing the harm for 5% of the important work, which they are not able do, and have no quaification to do
22:52 rurban1 because I will stop following their directions soon. Storable is the first critical fork. Signatures the next
22:52 rurban1 their directions are irrational and wrong
22:55 sivoais joined #perl11
22:55 rurban1 and don't listen too much to the noise of the loud ones. it's that not important.
23:09 stephen joined #perl11

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