Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6-dev, 2016-08-31

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Time Nick Message
01:21 tadzik joined #perl6-dev
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01:48 Topic for #perl6-dev is now Perl 6 language and compiler development 2.0 | Logs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/today
01:54 zengargoyle joined #perl6-dev
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02:56 ilmari[m] joined #perl6-dev
02:59 pmichaud (RFC tickets)  I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion that language RFCs have the same ticket queue as rakudo bugfixes.  To me it promotes too strongly the notion that "Rakudo" == "Perl 6".
03:00 pmichaud But since I'm not terribly active at the moment, that position perhaps should not carry a lot of weight.
03:13 AlexDaniel pmichaud: I think that most people agree, but what's the alternative?
03:15 AlexDaniel committable6: 2015.09,HEAD say join ", ", "ag".."bc"
03:15 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2015.09,HEAD»: ag, af, ae, ad, ac, bg, bf, be, bd, bc
03:16 AlexDaniel committable6: 2015.09,HEAD say ‘-5’.succ
03:16 committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦«2015.09,HEAD»: -6
03:16 AlexDaniel huggable: dunno
03:16 huggable AlexDaniel, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
03:35 pmichaud AlexDaniel: Separate queues for language tickets and rakudo tickets.
03:35 AlexDaniel pmichaud: ah
03:35 pmichaud For a while we were doing that by using GitHub's issue tracker on the perl6/specs repository as a place for language discussions to take place.
03:35 AlexDaniel so the current queue should be renamed to “rakudo” then?
03:36 pmichaud Either that, or we start migrating rakudo tickets to a GitHub issue tracker.  But I'm sure people are very much not wanting to do that.
03:38 pmichaud If the current dev team is fine with mixing language and rakudo issues on the same issue tracker, I won't object.  I just think it (wrongly) reinforces the notion that whatever Rakudo does is the language spec.
03:38 pmichaud and we've worked so hard to separate the two that it seems bad to let an issue tracker muddle things up again
03:39 AlexDaniel 👍
04:54 ShimmerFairy pmichaud: yeah, I'd rather see the tracker at least on a separate "group", if not issues on perl6/specs or perl6/roast
04:54 ShimmerFairy maybe even a 'rfcs.perl6.org' would be a possibility in the future?
05:03 ShimmerFairy in fact, maybe rakudo's tickets should move to GitHub, considering the RT queue is called "perl6", and not "rakudo" :P
06:05 b2gills star-m: say ([[&({@_})]] 1).perl
06:05 camelia star-m 2016.04: OUTPUT«1␤»
06:05 b2gills m: say ([[&({@_})]] 1).perl
06:05 camelia rakudo-moar b1c444: OUTPUT«[1]␤»
06:20 brrt joined #perl6-dev
06:27 [Tux] This is Rakudo version 2016.08.1-55-gb1c444f built on MoarVM version 2016.08
06:27 [Tux] csv-ip5xs       10.363
06:27 [Tux] test            15.628
06:27 [Tux] test-t           7.461
06:27 [Tux] csv-parser      16.663
07:18 sivoais joined #perl6-dev
07:28 sivoais joined #perl6-dev
07:56 lizmat commute&
08:12 RabidGravy joined #perl6-dev
09:20 jnthn morning, #perl6-dev
09:20 DrForr Mornin'.
09:21 timotimo greetings jnthn
09:26 JimmyZ morning :)
09:28 * jnthn has tuits today :)
09:29 masak \o/
09:29 masak are they... *round*!? o.O
09:30 jnthn They appear to be.
09:32 masak given the number of commits I'm making this morning, I appear to have some too :D
09:41 DrForr I used to make a business filing down square tuits.
09:47 |Tux| jnthn++
09:49 DrForr jnthn++ # Agreed.
09:52 * jnthn is having no luck reproducing https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=129120 locally
09:52 jnthn Granted I don't have a 32 core box :P
09:54 timotimo the worst thing about that code is that it pushes results into an array when it could just use the return value of the for loop instead :P
09:55 JimmyZ jnthn: I can try to reproduce it :)
09:59 jnthn Feel free
10:00 jnthn I left some hints on the ticket too
10:00 pmichaud Good morning, #perl6-dev
10:01 jnthn o/ pmichaud
10:02 jnthn pmichaud: From backlog: I agree language RFCs going in a separate queue would be preferable.
10:02 pmichaud jnthn: thanks.  :)
10:02 pmichaud now the question is "How do we do that?"
10:02 jnthn Well, that's the harder part. :P
10:03 pmichaud given that people have apparently been using the perl6 RT queue for that purpose.
10:03 pmichaud short answer is to migrate those tickets to wherever we want such things to go.
10:03 jnthn Yeah, I don't know why we started having that happen instead of filing them on the design docs github repo
10:03 jnthn (Is it still called spec? :P)
10:03 pmichaud I suspect someone just assumed it was like perl 5, and that it made sense to do RFCs in the rakudo queue
10:03 jnthn Yeah
10:03 pmichaud and that nobody carped about it until I came in
10:04 jnthn Relatedly, do we want to try and get people to provide certain information in an RFC?
10:04 pmichaud Oh, that's an interesting idea.
10:04 jnthn It might be nice if we had a page where we can point people at on how to file them, with both where to file them and what info to include.
10:04 nine Like a real world use case and information why existing alternatives just won't do it?
10:05 pmichaud At any rate, if perl6/specs repo is relegated to "historical" status, I'm not sure the specs/ issue tracker is the place for such things either.
10:05 pmichaud maybe perl6/roast issue tracker
10:06 pmichaud that would also help reinforce that it's the roast tests that define the language
10:06 jnthn That's an interesting idea.
10:07 pmichaud once we figure out where language tickets should go, the next step is to close out the [RFC] tickets in the RT queue by pointing them to the equivalent-minded issues in the new ticket queue
10:08 cygx joined #perl6-dev
10:08 pmichaud I think there's only 50 or so of those, so not too onerous yet.
10:08 cygx o/
10:08 JimmyZ jnthn: turns out no need 32 core, it happens only sometimes
10:08 timotimo so force_gc somewhere perhaps? :P
10:08 cygx .oO( why not just a new repository? )
10:08 JimmyZ I got it on my 4 core box :P
10:08 cygx incidentally: https://gist.github.com/cygx/7d792e09b182a1a79b1dac82663dfddb
10:09 pmichaud cygx: why not perl6/roast ?
10:09 jnthn JimmyZ: Hm, wonder why I couldn't get it on mine
10:09 timotimo when you have encoding and decoding, how should tell and seek work?
10:09 JimmyZ I run it two times, and got this error
10:09 jnthn o.O
10:10 cygx pmichaud: seems a bit of a mixture of concerns again, as the queue will presumably contain both actual bugs inthe test suite and language rfcs...
10:10 jnthn JimmyZ: Can you try the things I suggested in the RT?
10:10 jnthn cygx: Arguably those are one and the same :)
10:10 pmichaud cygx:  sure, but that sort of mixing I don't mind.
10:10 JimmyZ yeah, not sure I can get it again, haha
10:10 pmichaud a bug in the test suite probably means we need a language discussion about why it's a bug
10:10 jnthn cygx: If you want to change an existing test that was passing you're changing something somebody could have relied on, and that we'd insinuated we'd support 'cus it's in the test suite. :)
10:11 ShimmerFairy .oO(There is a universe of tests that are implicitly fudged and skip()'d)
10:13 cygx I don't have any strong feelings on it, it's just that while 'proposing to change a test' and 'proposing a new language feature' feel different to me (yeah, I know, the language is defined in terms of the tet suite and all that ;) )
10:13 nine pmichaud: it may as well just be a bug in the test setup code completely unrelated to the functionality tested.
10:13 cygx s/while//
10:13 JimmyZ jnthn: ok, I got it again, I posted it to the rt
10:14 pmichaud nine: sure... but I can't see the mixing of roast bugs and language discussions as being a big problem
10:14 pmichaud as opposed to what we have now, where rakudo's bug tracker is being used to propose language feature changes, entirely removed from roast or spec
10:15 ShimmerFairy I can agree with the notion that "overloading" the roast issues wouldn't be ideal. I'd prefer the design doc repo perhaps?
10:15 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: I think "design doc repo"  ==   perl6/specs
10:15 pmichaud and I have the impression that it's no longer the active location for language design notes
10:15 ShimmerFairy FWIW I still think we need a human-readable version of the specification, though overhauling the design docs would be a huge undertaking.
10:16 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: I suspect that the human-readable version is going to be docs.perl6.org
10:16 * ShimmerFairy thinks doing a literate-programming-esque thing with Pod in the test suite would be the best way to accomplish that.
10:17 pmichaud at least that's where things seem to be trending
10:17 ShimmerFairy pmichaud: I can see that, though not so much in its current form. docs.perl6.org tends to feel a bit disorganized to me, and certainly not helped by the fact that Pod support isn't where it should be yet.
10:18 pmichaud at any rate, I vote for language discussions issues to move to the perl6/roast issue tracker.
10:19 pmichaud Unless perl6/specs is going to be an active part of language design, in which case it's the natural location (and where a bunch of language-specific issues have been filed already)
10:19 ShimmerFairy yeah, roast is certainly better than the 'perl6' RT queue :)
10:20 ShimmerFairy pmichaud: like I mentioned earlier, maybe a totally separate thing like rfcs.perl6.org would eventually be best, if we can't find a suitable repo to tie it to.
10:20 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: well, language discussions aren't always rfcs
10:21 ShimmerFairy true, I only picked 'rfcs' as a subdomain because that's what people were calling it :)
10:21 pmichaud the truth is that we already have a language repository, and it's called perl6/roast
10:22 pmichaud I don't see any issue with adding some documentation and human-readable documents to perl6/roast
10:22 pmichaud for example, jnthn++'s "language versioning" gist sounds very much to me like it should be a document in perl6/roast
10:23 ShimmerFairy sure, and eventually it'd be nice if the test files came with in-file documentation as well, at least in the tricky parts of the language :)
10:27 pmichaud FWIW, not all of the [RFC] marked RT tickets are language issues... some of them are properly Rakudo bugs.
10:27 nine pmichaud: maybe we should resurrect the idea of renaming roast?
10:28 pmichaud nine: I'd be in favor of that.
10:28 pmichaud it could certainly be named "perl6"  :)
10:28 pmichaud although I'm sure that would confuse a *bunch* of people eventually.
10:29 pmichaud "I want to download perl6.  But github:perl6/perl doesn't seem to contain a compiler!"
10:29 pmichaud *github:perl6/perl6
10:30 pmichaud renaming 'roast' to 'lang' would certainly brighten my day.
10:30 pmichaud (or to 'perl6', for that matter)
10:30 pmichaud then we don't have to worry about renaming specs/  :)
10:31 * jnthn quite likes lang
10:31 jnthn roast is cute but a bit too so :)
10:32 pmichaud yes, it's cute, but it's hard to explain to outsiders
10:32 timotimo that's probably why it's too cute for jnthn
10:32 pmichaud and too cute for me, too.  I've never been fond of 'roast'
10:36 pmichaud I liked it better when it was called "spectest".  Ironically, that name is far more accurate today than it was then.  :-P
10:39 ShimmerFairy .oO(What about Perl6 Ultimate Grand Spectest, or 'pugs' for short? :P)
10:39 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: I like the idea of inlining human-readable language spec in the test files... but even if it's not inlined, placing such human-readable documentation in the roast subdirectories seems like a nice intermediate subset
10:40 pmichaud indeed, there could even be subdirectories where proposed features live (along with their tests) prior to formal adoption into the language
10:41 ShimmerFairy yeah, I think it would help keep the documentation more organized along the lines of how the tests are organized.
10:41 pmichaud s/proposed features/feature proposals/
10:41 ShimmerFairy And I'm sure the inline variation would make Knuth very happy :P
10:41 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: that, yes, but also  might point out ways to better organize the tests, too.
10:42 pmichaud I've long believed that roast needs a refactor... for a while I was looking for ways to refactor it to closely match the synopses.
10:42 ShimmerFairy indeed, we might see the old Snn- prefixes on directories disappear someday, esp. if/when we want to "really" distance ourselves from the design docs
10:43 pmichaud well, eventually the tests, language, etc. will probably want to reorganize themselves to closely match whatever the Perl 6 Camel Book equivalent ends up being.
10:43 ShimmerFairy Ah yes, I forget that the synopses were organized along the P5 Camel Book :)
10:43 ShimmerFairy (though obviously ours would be the Butterfly Book)
10:44 pmichaud The test suite does point out one difficulty we had with the synopses... some of those documents just ended up being too long.
10:44 pmichaud They need(ed) better subdivisions.
10:45 pmichaud a-n-y-w-a-y... I've thrown my hand grenade for today, I think.
10:45 ShimmerFairy However we do it, I think we can agree that expecting potential new developers of new P6 implementations to understand the specifics of the language without human-readable text would be very annoying.
10:46 ShimmerFairy pmichaud: well, I also think that it didn't help in cases where tests you're looking for could be in any of several locations, so a more feature-based organization would be nice.
10:47 nine I'd totally be for a one feature per testfile structure. Nowadays our startup time is low enough to actually consider that.
10:47 jnthn The trouble is that a lot of tests are about the interaction of features - which is often where the interesting bugs are too...
10:48 pmichaud So, my proposal (RFC):  1.  Rename 'perl6/roast' to 'perl6/lang'.  2.  Make the 'perl6/lang' issue tracker a place for tracking language issues, such as proposed new features.  3.  Migrate jnthn++'s language versioning document into the perl6/lang repo.
10:48 pmichaud 4.  Find any language-modification tickets in the RT ticket queue and move them to the lang issue tracker.  Same for any issues left outstanding in the perl6/specs repo.
10:48 jnthn Phew, I think I've finally fixed the crappy backtraces issue with sprintf...
10:49 jnthn Thought that'd be a nice 5 minute fix...turned out not
10:49 pmichaud nicely, a language ticket can be closed when its corresponding tests have been committed to the perl6/lang repo.  :)
10:50 * jnthn is +1 towards pmichaud++'s proposal
10:50 ShimmerFairy jnthn: "feature interaction" is where cross-references come in! (and if all common systems supported it, symlinks!) :)
10:50 ShimmerFairy +1 for the proposal as well
10:50 jnthn haha...symlinks on Windows :P
10:51 cygx what's wrong with symlinks on windows?
10:51 jnthn oh, talking of Windows, I should try and reproduce that concurrency issue there...where all 8 virtual cores are available
10:52 pmichaud I should probably try to get some sleep.  bbl
10:52 jnthn Their lack of support, traditionally... :)
10:52 jnthn pmichaud: Rest well :)
10:52 timotimo good rest :)
10:53 ShimmerFairy cygx: AIUI, if you see a symlink on windows, something's very wrong with your system :P
10:53 pmichaud .oO( or something could be very right with your system )
10:54 cygx jnthn, ShimmerFairy: mklink /?
10:56 ShimmerFairy I wouldn't know anything about windows, I just remember hearing that it's got no symbolic links (of the ln -s variety linux-wise).
10:56 cygx cf https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa365680(v=vs.85).aspx
10:57 cygx they've been around since Vista
10:58 jnthn lunch time &
10:58 jnthn (will commit that fix for printf backtraces after, it spectested ok)
10:58 nine They do exist on NTFS. But AFAIK they're not exposed in the UI
10:58 ShimmerFairy cygx: oh cool, so all we have to do is "XP not supported" and then we can (ab)use symlinks in all the places! \o/
10:59 moritz ... except on fat32 file systems
10:59 cygx nine: well, you get a small arrow on the symbol and the file type column in explorer will display .symlink
11:00 cygx the fat32 objection is a fair point
11:01 ShimmerFairy How common is FAT32 for systems, anyway?
11:02 pmichaud ShimmerFairy: used a USB Flash drive lately?
11:04 ShimmerFairy pmichaud: oh yeah. tbf though, I'd sooner reformat any flash drive of my to an ext filesystem unless otherwise necessary :P
11:05 cygx if I may go off-topic for a bit, apparently the NTFS vesion shipped with WindowsXP actually supported symlinks, but did not provide an API
11:05 cygx cf http://schinagl.priv.at/nt/hardlinkshellext/hardlinkshellext.html#symboliclinksforwindowsxp
11:07 nine Since we're talking about how to find tests for a feature, maybe a human readable index would do just as well
11:08 nine Or even longer and more descriptive file names. We do not need to support 8.3 after all :)
11:13 cygx well, currently we have things like S16-io/basic-open.t, S16-filehandles/open.t and S32-io/open.t
11:14 ShimmerFairy nine: what are you talking about? VARIAB~7.TST is perfectly understandable! :P
11:29 skids joined #perl6-dev
11:44 mst ShimmerFairy: I WILL PEE ON EVERYTHING YOU LOVE
11:48 nine .oO(IWILLP~1.EEO)
12:21 * jnthn back
12:27 MasterDuke joined #perl6-dev
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: dc7f279 | jnthn++ | src/core/Backtrace.pm:
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: We need to be smart about terminating backtraces.
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom:
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: The sprintf implementation is done in NQP and parsed using a grammar.
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: On an error with the format or processing the format, we panic, which
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: is fine. However, panic is in NQPHLL. We used detection of NQPHLL in
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: order to trim the bottommost frames from stack traces (which are the
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: HLL::Compiler startup infrastructure, which is not useful to show).
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: Unfortuantely, this led to us trimming all the useful userspace
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: lines away from the backtrace of sprintf also, meaning the user had
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: no context for where the error came from. Sad! Also fixed it so that
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: panic does not show up in the backtrace, which apparently made some
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: users panic too. :-)
12:27 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/dc7f27988b
12:28 moritz jnthn++
12:31 MetaZoffix joined #perl6-dev
12:31 [Coke] I am less worried about our users being confused about our super confusing ticketing systems, and more concerned about the tickets not getting addressed, regardless of what system they're in.
12:32 * moritz agrees
12:33 [Coke] I'll finish documenting the state of the mess in https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction in the next day or so since this came up again.
12:33 jnthn [Coke]: That's in part a tough one to crack in so far as it's partly a "resources" problem
12:34 jnthn The taggings have helped in that, for example, I can now easily have a list of all [CONC] tickets. That's certainly nice.
12:35 jnthn And it may help more people who know that stuff to be able to find them and work on them, but it doesn't suddenly give people a bunch more time to work on tickets. :)
12:36 jnthn If somebody fancies writing a test, https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=129088 can now we closed with one :)
12:36 * [Coke] actually starts editing that page right now.
12:37 jnthn Wonder if the lack of backtrace on sprintf also has another ticket somewhere...
12:37 [Coke] jnthn: there are a ton of sprintf tickets.
12:37 jnthn Yeah, but I don't see one for that.
12:37 [Coke] (ton==6)
12:39 [Coke] jnthn: (time) right, and now we're going to spend time moving tickets around instead of answering them. :)
12:40 jnthn [Coke]: That assumes the people with the ability to do the moving also have the ability to do the answering :-)
12:45 [Coke] also. someone asks "can we change this behavior". do we really expect that user to know a priori if that's a compiler issue and not a spec issue?
12:46 [Coke] trying to list all the options in the doc but stress that we'd rather get the ticket than not.
12:46 MetaZoffix jnthn: commented on https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=129120  Slightly golfed and a few backtraces
12:49 MetaZoffix Hm... "This is Rakudo version 2016.07.1-197-g1728139 built on MoarVM version 2016.07-17-g40948f6"...
12:49 * MetaZoffix upgrades to bleed to try again
12:50 jnthn MetaZoffix: hmmm
12:51 jnthn MetaZoffix: ooh
12:51 jnthn Any chance you could test it on the Rakudo branch missing-clones?
12:51 MetaZoffix sure
12:51 [Coke] updated: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction
12:52 [Coke] .tell pmichaud please see https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction
12:52 yoleaux2 [Coke]: I'll pass your message to pmichaud.
12:54 [Coke] Anyone mind if I remove the section Reporting Bugs in the README.md and replace it with a link to the wiki?
12:54 moritz [Coke]: +1
12:54 MetaZoffix +1
12:54 moritz [Coke]: maybe also link/consolidate with http://rakudo.org/tickets/
13:05 MetaZoffix jnthn: still crashes on missing-clones: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/48cbee19e51ec5348208212efe9355b5
13:06 [Coke] .tell pmichaud - also ; it's not just [RFC]. See [@LARRY], [NYI], [TODO] - there's no guarantee any of these are actually rakudo bugs at this point.
13:06 yoleaux2 [Coke]: I'll pass your message to pmichaud.
13:07 [Coke] m: say 10+56+91+19
13:07 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«176␤»
13:07 [Coke] that's the minimum count on tickets that need considering.
13:07 [Coke] (i'm not saying let's not do this; I'm all for reviewing tickets because we can probably close some as we review them. It's just not easy)
13:09 [Coke] updated https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction more.
13:10 dalek rakudo/nom: af4c2ef | coke++ | README.md:
13:10 dalek rakudo/nom: replace with wiki doc
13:10 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/af4c2efa36
13:10 skids joined #perl6-dev
13:11 [Coke] MetaZoffix: I deliberately did not refer to all the [] tags we have, only the ones that I felt users should be mucking with
13:11 [Coke] I would not object at all if someone went through that doc and improved formatting or grammar.
13:12 jnthn MetaZoffix: OK, at lesat we know one more thing it isn't :)
13:12 MetaZoffix :D
13:12 liztormato joined #perl6-dev
13:13 jnthn I need to fix up those commits too, but for now am taking on the long-put-off phaser scoping/cloning fixes.
13:13 * liztormato waves from Salzburg
13:13 jnthn Because they in turn sorta block my sockets string I/O fixes
13:14 jnthn And also prevent us from having a more robust protect that copes fine with control exceptions etc.
13:14 jnthn (We should really release the lock in a LEAVE)
13:14 jnthn o/ liztormato
13:14 liztormato jnthn++
13:14 jnthn Enjoy the salt mountain!
13:15 liztormato jnthn: having lunch in the same place we had after the last Austrian PW
13:15 jnthn m: for ^5 { my $x will leave { .foo } = class :: { method foo() { say 'left' } } }
13:15 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«left␤left␤left␤left␤left␤»
13:15 jnthn liztormato: ooh :) Nice!
13:16 jnthn m: for ^5 { my $x will leave { .foo } = class :: { has $.x; method foo() { say 'left $!x' } }.new(x => $_) }
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«left $!x␤left $!x␤left $!x␤left $!x␤left $!x␤»
13:16 jnthn d'oh :)
13:16 jnthn m: for ^5 { my $x will leave { .foo } = class :: { has $.x; method foo() { say "left $!x" } }.new(x => $_) }
13:16 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«left 0␤left 1␤left 2␤left 3␤left 4␤»
13:16 jnthn Hmm, I wonder how that gets the right answer
13:17 jnthn m: await for for ^4 { start for ^5 { my $x will leave { .foo } = class :: { has $.x; method foo() { say "left $!x" } }.new(x => $_) } }
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Word 'for' interpreted as a listop; please use 'do for' to introduce the statement control word␤at <tmp>:1␤------> await for for⏏ ^4 { start for ^5 { my $x will leave { ␤Unexpected block in infix position (two terms in a…»
13:17 jnthn m: await do for ^4 { start for ^5 { my $x will leave { .foo } = class :: { has $.x; method foo() { say "left $!x" } }.new(x => $_) } }
13:17 camelia rakudo-moar dc7f27: OUTPUT«left 0␤left 0␤left 1␤left 1␤left 2␤left 2␤left 0␤left 3␤left 1␤left 3␤left 4␤left 2␤left 3␤left 4␤left 4␤left 0␤left 1␤left 2␤left 3␤left 4␤»
13:18 [Coke] when jnthn wonders how something works, eek.
13:19 jnthn Well, I think there's probably a way go get a data race in there somewhere
13:19 liztormato On to Innsbruck&
13:19 jnthn ooh
13:19 jnthn That is probably a pretty drive :)
13:19 * [Coke] adds 289 untagged tickets to the pile to review.
13:20 jnthn the Salzburg - Innsbruck train is, anyway ;)
13:21 [Coke] oh, and one [SPEC] ticket.
13:22 MetaZoffix buggable: tags
13:22 buggable MetaZoffix, Total: 1378; BUG: 542; UNTAGGED: 287; LTA: 118; NYI: 91; JVM: 62; RFC: 56; CONC: 51; SEGV: 37; TESTNEEDED: 37; REGEX: 34; UNI: 30; PERF: 26; @LARRY: 19; POD: 18; IO: 15; NATIVECALL: 14; BUILD: 11; PRECOMP: 11; TODO: 11; MATH: 7; OO: 7; TESTCOMMITTED: 7; STAR: 6; BOOTSTRAP: 5; GLR: 4; OSX: 4; REPL: 4; WEIRD: 3; CONFIGURE: 1; DOCS: 1; LIBRARY: 1; RT: 1; SITE: 1; SPEC: 1; See http://perl6.fail/ for details
13:26 [Coke] those numbers are looking closer.
13:26 MetaZoffix These now get auto-updated every 10 minutes (or rather... will be once I figure out why cron is not running my update script :P)
13:28 moritz environment variables. It's always those crazy environment variables.
13:28 [Coke] you fixed the bug with multiple tags, looks like.
13:31 jnthn Seems that actually I can not shave the phaser yak this side of the encoding fixes for async sockets
13:31 jnthn Which is nice 'cus it means I can get a fix in for that rather than piling up fixes that need fixes :)
13:32 moritz is your YAG-Graph directional and acyclical? :-)
13:32 moritz erm, yak-graph, I should say
13:32 jnthn I really hope so :P
13:33 [Coke] moritz: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=123667 - there's no sample code here to test.
13:34 [Coke] ... oh, there's a sha1 buried in there.
13:34 [Coke] nevermind.
13:35 moritz [Coke]: if the sha1 isn't available anymore in the repo (branch deleted, maybe), feel free to close the ticket
13:35 [Coke] it's there.
13:35 [Coke] and even has a 'start' in it.
13:36 [Coke] note that htmlify does have a theoretically functional start block in HEAD these days
13:39 MasterDuke joined #perl6-dev
13:40 [Coke] m: s[ea] = "rea"; # RT #114388
13:40 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=114388
13:40 camelia rakudo-moar af4c2e: OUTPUT«Method 'match' not found for invocant of class 'Any'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:41 MetaZoffix m: $_ = 'meaw'; s[ea] = "rea";
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar af4c2e: ( no output )
13:41 MetaZoffix m: $_ = 'meaw'; s[ea] = "rea"; say $_
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar af4c2e: OUTPUT«mreaw␤»
13:42 [Coke] m: say (* < 7 and * > 5)(6)
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar af4c2e: OUTPUT«True␤»
13:42 [Coke] m: say (* < 7 and 7 > 5)(7)
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar af4c2e: OUTPUT«No such method 'CALL-ME' for invocant of type 'Bool'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: 6e76f7e | jnthn++ | src/core/IO/Socket/Async.pm:
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: Cope with empty socket reads.
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes:
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: There's a problem with LAST/QUIT phasers in the case that an iteration
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: of the whenever never takes place. This wants fixing, but in our case
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: it's safe to work around the problem.
13:45 dalek rakudo/async-socket-str-fixes: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6e76f7e3b9
13:51 jnthn So, interesting problem
13:51 jnthn Suppose you receive the byte buffer corresponding to "abcd"
13:52 jnthn Previously, with a chars supply, we'd decode that packet as a unit
13:52 jnthn That's crazy broken and I've fixed it
13:52 jnthn However, I also break a test.
13:52 jnthn Why? Because if you send that, and we use the streaming coder, it spits out only "abc"
13:53 jnthn And you never see the "d" unless another packet comes through. Why? 'cus the first char we get might be a combining char.
13:53 * moritz sees the problem
13:53 jnthn Fixing the test is easy: you stick a \n on the end
13:54 jnthn Control chars are always NFG terminators (just falls out of the Unicode grapheme boundary algo)
13:56 jnthn I'm personally happy to change the test (and in errata)
13:56 jnthn I think this will only be a limited practical problem for non-toy examples since:
13:57 jnthn a) It doesn't even happen if you're doing binary protocls
13:57 jnthn b) If you're doing a text-based protocol like HTTP correctly, you'll likely be doing it in binary and then handling decoding more carefully because the headers mean you have to switch encoding at some point
13:58 jnthn c) If your protocol is line-based you're fine
13:58 jnthn d) If you set an encoding like ASCII or latin-1, you can't have this problem (and I'll implement doing that shortly)
13:59 nine jnthn: is there a way to force it to stop decoding and give you that last character without modifying the input data?
13:59 jnthn Well, I guess that falls under
14:00 jnthn e) If you have knowledge that lets you safely handle things, you can use the streaming decoder API, feeding it binary buffers, and tell it to just treat what it has as The End.
14:00 jnthn (Exposing the streaming decode API is also part of what I'm doing)
14:01 jnthn Which I think is a cleaner way to have people do it than trying to inject a back channel somewhere :)
14:01 jnthn Or maybe I mis-understood what you meant?
14:02 nine I was aiming at some "close the socket and read the rest" or something
14:02 jnthn Oh, if the socket is closed then the supply is done
14:02 jnthn And the done forces it to just finish decoding and spit out what it has
14:03 Woodi socket can be closed only for sending, this don't change anything ?
14:03 nine Ok, so unless your protocol is supremely weird and the last single character signifies the end of the stream, you're fine.
14:09 jnthn Woodi: I thought close() closed it both ways, and shutdown was used if you wanted to close only one part?
14:09 jnthn *one direction I guess
14:11 jnthn So close would mean the echo client in the test could never receive the echo back
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14:13 jnthn If you were really building an echo server you'd surely just take the easy path and do it with bytes too :P
14:13 Woodi I just found Winsock examples of "app" exit only when client part closes sending side, maybe totaly unrelevant here:  https://msdn.microsoft.com/pl-pl/library/windows/desktop/ms737591%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
14:15 Woodi anyway, getting only "abc" is strange...
14:16 jnthn Indeed. On the other hand, getting a grapheme in two parts is wrong.
14:22 jnthn Either way, I should really implement shutdown :)
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15:13 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: b1fb57c | jnthn++ | t/moar/05-decoder.t:
15:13 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: Tests for VM decoder line reading.
15:13 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b1fb57c9ea
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16:14 TimToady I would like to point out that, despite the fact that "roast" is cute, that was not the primary motivation for picking the term; it was picked to be an unambiguous proper noun, and to serve the linguistic and cultural slot of a proper noun, and I don't think people quite realize how much you all have been using it as a proper noun
16:14 TimToady both "perl6" and "lang" are very overloaded, in contrast, and not very searchable
16:16 TimToady so I think "roast" should stay the name of the spectest repository, to give it the primacy it has, and if we want a language design repo, the correct approach is not to rename roast, but to include roast as part of a larger repo that can have any name you like
16:18 TimToady we put a lot of work into unconfusing people that roast is THE language definition
16:18 TimToady let's not dilute that
16:21 pmichaud works for me
16:21 yoleaux2 12:52Z <[Coke]> pmichaud: please see https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction
16:21 yoleaux2 13:06Z <[Coke]> pmichaud: - also ; it's not just [RFC]. See [@LARRY], [NYI], [TODO] - there's no guarantee any of these are actually rakudo bugs at this point.
16:27 TimToady I am also vaguely suspicious of the attempt to use cuteness as an antipattern marker; sure, "You think that's cute today" is one of our Perl 6 design principles, but that's just a palliative to one of the longstanding principles of Perl culture, that humor is *orthogonal* to professionalism.
16:27 TimToady We've been fighting that battle for a generation now.
16:28 pmichaud +1.  I'm not against cuteness on its own... I still very much like "phaser", for example.  :)
16:30 pmichaud [Coke]: +1 to the rt-introduction document you've drafted.  Yes, it means we may end up moving tickets from place to place.
16:30 perlpilot joined #perl6-dev
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: c0b8473 | jnthn++ | t/moar/05-decoder.t:
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: Add tests for the byte-level Decoder ops.
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/c0b847375b
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: 1507603 | jnthn++ | docs/ops.markdown:
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: Document the new streaming decode ops.
16:42 dalek nqp/expose-decode-stream: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/150760304e
16:43 jnthn Docs :)
16:44 jnthn I'm vaguely hoping I might be able to trade in having written docs and a bunch of tests for somebody to port this stuff to the JVM backend? ;-)
16:46 dalek nqp: b30de50 | jnthn++ | src/vm/moar/QAST/QASTOperationsMAST.nqp:
16:46 dalek nqp: Map decodestream ops.
16:46 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/b30de50d46
16:46 dalek nqp: 39d4365 | jnthn++ | t/moar/05-decoder.t:
16:46 dalek nqp: Stub in tests for decoder.
16:46 jnthn That merges the MoarVM support.
16:46 dalek joined #perl6-dev
16:46 TimToady lovely vague word, "vaguely" :)
16:47 timotimo lovaguely
16:47 AndroUser joined #perl6-dev
16:48 timotimo jnthn: "config" will be the place to put things such as "what to do with b0rked utf8" and such?
16:48 timotimo like, put replacement character or throw exception
16:48 jnthn timotimo: Maybe some day
16:48 timotimo python has that kind of option available
16:48 jnthn timotimo: But for now, it'll be whether to translate newlines or not
16:48 timotimo ah
16:48 jnthn But yeah, it's intended as a hook for those sorts of things.
16:48 timotimo good good
16:48 TimToady speaking of overloaded terms, what is this "config" of which you speak?
16:49 timotimo the third argument to nqp::decoderconfigure
16:49 timotimo since nqp doesn't actually have named args, it doesn't matter :)
16:49 timotimo er. i mean nqp ops don't have named args
16:49 jnthn Not yet, no :)
16:49 TimToady Not quite yet!
16:49 travis-ci joined #perl6-dev
16:49 travis-ci NQP build failed. Jonathan Worthington 'Merge branch 'expose-decode-stream''
16:49 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/156574659 https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/8c76bca131bf...13a15a0adeeb
16:49 travis-ci left #perl6-dev
16:49 timotimo it's definitely possible to do, since we'd have all necessary info available at compile time
16:50 timotimo MoarVM op 'decoderconfigure' is unknown as a core or extension op
16:50 timotimo ^- apparently forgot to bump?
16:50 jnthn d'oh
16:51 dalek nqp: f318591 | jnthn++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION:
16:51 dalek nqp: Bump MOAR_REVISION for streaming decode ops.
16:51 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/f318591c91
16:51 * TimToady wonders if the purpose of the ' there is to indicate the headsmack...
16:51 jnthn Just maybe :)
16:51 Elfoonto joined #perl6-dev
16:51 Elfoonto https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/156574659
16:51 jnthn Or it looks like a drop of beer, which reflects that I might just have worked enough today
16:52 Elfoonto Oh, it's nqp.
16:52 Elfoonto Was wondering why buggable is silent :)
16:52 jnthn Yeah, I wondered that too :)
16:52 jnthn I was like "really, I have to check myself if it's a genuine fail?"
16:52 jnthn Bots make me lazy :)
16:52 Elfoonto :)
16:54 ItayAlmog joined #perl6-dev
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16:54 travis-ci NQP build passed. Jonathan Worthington 'Bump MOAR_REVISION for streaming decode ops.'
16:54 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/nqp/builds/156575856 https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/13a15a0adeeb...f318591c9198
16:54 travis-ci left #perl6-dev
16:55 jnthn For the immediate fix this supports over in async sockets, I can put in some conditional stuff to make it fall back on the existing things on JVM. But then for all the other things...that's gonna get old really fast.
16:55 jnthn Such that it may make more sense just to port it.
16:57 jnthn Anyways, time for some rest, and some cooking :)
16:57 timotimo \o/
17:04 dalek nqp: d14d42e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | docs/release_guide.pod:
17:04 dalek nqp: Add a blurb on what to install to get jvm
17:04 dalek nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/d14d42e1a4
17:10 lizmat joined #perl6-dev
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17:44 Elfoonto NeuralAnomaly: status
17:44 NeuralAnomaly Elfoonto, [✘] Next release will be in 2 weeks and 2 days. Since last release, there are 25 new still-open tickets (4 unreviewed and 0 blockers). See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
17:46 ItayAlmog joined #perl6-dev
17:50 [Coke] that url is showing tags for tickets that don't currently exist on the ticket.
17:50 [Coke] e.g. for RT #129150
17:50 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=129150
17:51 [Coke] (and I assume you know this, but no indication which of those tickets need review)
17:52 Elfoonto I think the tag is still there, because the system added the proper-RT-tag for "bug" when it saw "[BUG]" in the title.
17:52 ItayAlmog joined #perl6-dev
17:52 Elfoonto So R6 is picking up "[RFC][IO]" from the subject line and "[Bug]" from the RT tag
17:54 Elfoonto And now I tossed it and it got removed from R6 too
17:55 Elfoonto And yeah, I'll add indication of which tickets need be reviewed. Right now it's visible only if you log in as release manager.
17:57 Elfoonto http://i.imgur.com/bqrxHfY.png
17:57 Elfoonto "review" in this instance means review by release manager to see if the ticket is a blocker or not (so on release date this is all done)
17:59 [Coke] 129131 isn't a blocker, if that helps
17:59 [Coke] nor is 142
18:27 ItayAlmog joined #perl6-dev
18:29 ItayAlmog Ok, i think that i have a way for a rep system on the attributes part, but how do you treat a method ?
18:30 ItayAlmog left #perl6-dev
18:45 [Coke] wasn't that chat on #perl6 ?
19:00 Ven joined #perl6-dev
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19:54 dalek roast: 97e3fe6 | usev6++ | S03-metaops/reduce.t:
19:54 dalek roast: Skip newly dying test for JVM, RT #129153
19:54 dalek roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/97e3fe6234
19:54 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=129153
20:22 * lizmat waves from Innsbruck
20:25 masak hello, Innsbruck
20:26 lizmat masak  o/
20:26 lizmat are you coming?
20:27 MasterDuke joined #perl6-dev
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20:35 MasterDuke masak: re RT #115758, in Any-iterable-methods.pm, i tried adding a new multi method max(:&by) that just called self.max(&by)
20:35 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=115758
20:35 MasterDuke this works for 'say {0 => 1, 1 => 0}.max(:by(*.value))', but breaks 'say 1 max 2 max 0' with the error message "Method 'arity' not found for invocant of class 'Callable'"
20:36 MasterDuke i feel like i'm missing something, but i'm not sure what
20:38 geekosaur that sounds like a change TimToady made recently
20:38 geekosaur [30 22:29] <dalek> rakudo/nom: b1c444f | TimToady++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
20:38 geekosaur [30 22:29] <dalek> rakudo/nom: Calling unary on reduce needs arity, not count
20:39 masak lizmat: no :(
20:39 MasterDuke geekosaur: yeah, was wondering about that. thought maybe i should reset back before his commit and then try my change
20:40 masak MasterDuke: weird. wish I could help, but I don't have any leads.
20:40 MasterDuke but i don't understand his change well enough to know if it is actually relevant, or am i just triggering on the 'arity'
20:41 MasterDuke masak: ah well, thanks anyway, i'll keep at it
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: 9bafd6a | lizmat++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: Make many metaops about 10% faster
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom:
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: By using nqp::eqaddr / nqp::not_i instead of =:= and !  This is
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: because these operators are too accepting, so they cannot be optimized
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: (yet, anyway).
20:43 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9bafd6ae01
20:50 timotimo lizmat: neat :)
20:50 lizmat the benchmark was: my @a = ^100; for ^1000 { [-] @a }
20:51 timotimo is the improvement noticable with for ^100 X ^100  { } for example?
20:56 lizmat timotimo: lemme see
21:00 lizmat eh, that one is not covered in metaops.src, and I covered only that file right now
21:04 timotimo oops!
21:04 timotimo i thought i saw metaop_cross there
21:04 timotimo yeah, the very fir st part of the diff has METAOP_CROSS with a change in it
21:05 timotimo dinner time! afk
21:33 MasterDuke jnthn: could i bother you for a pointer re RT #115758? did you happen to catch my conv with masak and geekosaur approx an hour ago?
21:33 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display.html?id=115758
21:43 dalek rakudo/nom: ec9e814 | lizmat++ | src/core/metaops.pm:
21:43 dalek rakudo/nom: Squeeze another 5% out of simple [op] @values
21:43 dalek rakudo/nom:
21:43 dalek rakudo/nom: Rewrite the whole logic in nqp ops without need to return anything
21:43 dalek rakudo/nom: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/ec9e814a74
21:43 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.^lookup('max').signature.say
21:43 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«($: | is raw)␤»
21:44 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.^lookup('max').cando(\({ 0 => 1, 1 => 0 })).say
21:44 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«(max)␤»
21:44 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.^lookup('max').cando(\({ 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }))[0].signature.say
21:44 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«($: *%_)␤»
21:44 jnthn grrr :)
21:46 MasterDuke yeah, i haven't been able to ^lookup or ^find_method anything that seemed helpful
21:46 jnthn Well, I was curious if we overrode it specially on Hash
21:46 jnthn But I guess not
21:47 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.max(:by({ .WHAT.say; .value }))
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: ( no output )
21:47 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.pairs.max(:by({ .WHAT.say; .value }))
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: ( no output )
21:47 jnthn huh
21:47 jnthn m: [ 0 => 1, 1 => 0 ].max(:by({ .WHAT.say; .value }))
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: ( no output )
21:47 MasterDuke m: say { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.max(:by({ .WHAT.say; .value }))
21:47 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«1 => 0␤»
21:47 jnthn Uh, does :by work on *anything*?
21:48 jnthn m: [ 0 => 1, 1 => 0 ].max({ .WHAT.say; .value })
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤(Pair)␤»
21:48 jnthn m: [ 0 => 1, 1 => 0 ].pairs.max({ .WHAT.say; .value })
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤(Pair)␤»
21:48 MasterDuke m: say max :by(*.value), { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }
21:48 jnthn m: { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.pairs.max({ .WHAT.say; .value })
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«0 => 1␤»
21:48 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«(Pair)␤(Pair)␤»
21:48 jnthn Yes but that's on the sub form
21:48 jnthn the method just takes the condition directly, not as a named arg?
21:49 jnthn m: say { 0 => 1, 1 => 0 }.max(*.value)
21:49 camelia rakudo-moar 9bafd6: OUTPUT«0 => 1␤»
21:49 jnthn That loosk right
21:49 jnthn *looks
21:49 MasterDuke there's no named arg in the method
21:50 jnthn Right
21:50 jnthn So did the RT ticket simply expect something to work that was never intended to? :)
21:50 jnthn Do we have any other places that have :by on the method form?
21:51 MasterDuke that's what i was trying to ask in my comment, but didn't really explain
21:51 MasterDuke Supply
21:51 jnthn Hmm
21:52 jnthn m: Supply.from-list(1..10).max(-*).tap(&say)
21:52 camelia rakudo-moar ec9e81: OUTPUT«1␤»
21:52 jnthn m: Supply.from-list(1..10).max(by => -*).tap(&say)
21:52 camelia rakudo-moar ec9e81: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤»
21:52 jnthn o.O
21:53 jnthn m: Supply.from-list(1..10).max.tap(&say)
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar ec9e81: OUTPUT«1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤10␤»
21:54 jnthn What makes you think Supply takes it? :)
21:54 MasterDuke right, saw the &by, just realized it's not named
21:54 jnthn :)
21:55 jnthn I'm curious if any other non-max methods take :by though. I'd thought we were doing that on the sub forms to not confuse the transform with a list value
21:55 jnthn But on the method forms there's no such ambiguity
21:55 MasterDuke git grep 'method.*:by'
21:56 MasterDuke returns no results
21:56 jnthn Suggests "no" then :)
21:56 jnthn In which case the ticket is kinda asking us to add them *everywhere* since it'd be odd to do it just for max. :)
21:56 jnthn But I'm not really that inclined to.
21:57 MasterDuke the sub forms of min,max,minmax all have :&by, but those are it
22:00 MasterDuke but thanks for the help, i'll comment on the ticket again
22:01 jnthn Yeah, so far as I recall we went that way on the subs, and positional for the methods, and it was a deliberate choice
22:05 jnthn sleep time for me; 'night o/
22:05 MasterDuke night
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