Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6-dev, 2017-11-13

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Time Nick Message
02:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: 53130587f7 | (Nick Logan)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | t/02-rakudo/04-diag.t
02:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: Allow test to find libs before a 'make install'
02:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/53130587f7
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02:55 Topic for #perl6-dev is now Perl 6 language and compiler development 2.0 | Logs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/today | For toolchain/installation stuff see #perl6-toolchain | For MoarVM see #moarvm
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03:28 Geth ¦ rakudo: 1aa83a789c | (Nick Logan)++ | 6 files
03:28 Geth ¦ rakudo: Remove tests for no-longer-core module
03:28 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/1aa83a789c
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03:54 Geth ¦ rakudo: b2725c1228 | (Nick Logan)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | t/03-jvm/01-interop.t
03:54 Geth ¦ rakudo: skip jvm test unless running on jvm
03:54 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b2725c1228
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06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: 4849c73355 | usev6++ | src/core/Kernel.pm
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: Change lookup of OS name on JVM backend
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo:
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: nqp::jvmgetproperties is where we have that information on JVM. We use
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: the same differentiation in src/core/VM.pm.
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo:
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: Unbusts the JVM build.
06:59 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/4849c73355
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08:05 [Tux] Rakudo version 2017.10-173-g4849c7335 - MoarVM version 2017.10-58-gad8618468
08:05 [Tux] csv-test-xs-20      0.438 -  0.438
08:05 [Tux] csv-ip5xs           1.100 -  1.105
08:05 [Tux] test-t --race       1.306 -  1.388
08:05 [Tux] test-t              3.236 -  3.276
08:05 [Tux] csv-parser         12.287 - 12.385
08:05 [Tux] test               12.200 - 12.448
08:05 [Tux] csv-ip5xs-20       12.719 - 13.048
08:05 [Tux] test-t-20 --race   21.049 - 23.185
08:05 [Tux] test-t-20          59.942 - 60.079
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10:43 lizmat Files=1229, Tests=75812, 319 wallclock secs (14.95 usr  5.37 sys + 2195.32 cusr 215.97 csys = 2431.61 CPU)
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: 3590beaa99 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Kernel.pm
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: Remove Kernel.memory
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo:
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: Apparently the ru_maxrss element in nqp::getrusage is 0 on Windows,
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: so this is nowhere near a general solution to providing memory size info.
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: So remove it for now until we can come up with something better that also
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: works on Windows.
11:00 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/3590beaa99
11:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: 5f4b61b120 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Telemetry.pm6
11:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: JVM-proof Telemetry
11:01 Geth ¦ rakudo:
11:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: We have already abstracted getting the osname in VM, duh!
11:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/5f4b61b120
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11:41 Zoffix lizmat: would you mind reminding people to sign up for Advent Posts in the Weekly. We still have lots of space open. Maybe prod the beginners who are too shy too by saying something like all skill-levels welcome; write about something cool you learned in Perl 6 recently. The schedule is at https://github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/perl6advent-2017/schedule and original blog post is at
11:41 Zoffix https://rakudo.party/post/Rakudo-Perl-6-Advent-Calendar-2017--Call-for-Authors
11:44 lizmat Zoffix: will do
11:45 Zoffix lizmat++
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12:16 Geth ¦ rakudo: 68b2891d96 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/build/moar_core_sources
12:16 Geth ¦ rakudo: Move atomicops before Thread
12:16 Geth ¦ rakudo:
12:16 Geth ¦ rakudo: So we can use atomic ops inside Thread for providing telemetry data.
12:16 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/68b2891d96
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12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo: 77048b6acb | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Thread.pm
12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add some telemetry to Thread
12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo:
12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo: - started, aborted, completed, joined, yields
12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo: - class method "usage" returns a struct similar to nqp::getrusage
12:42 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/77048b6acb
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13:47 Geth ¦ rakudo: cb4d8b6608 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core/Thread.pm
13:47 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add highest OS thread ID to telemetry
13:47 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cb4d8b6608
13:57 Geth ¦ rakudo: e5912337e7 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Telemetry.pm6
13:57 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add Telemetry::Instrument::Thread
13:57 Geth ¦ rakudo:
13:57 Geth ¦ rakudo: To allow for reporting Thread.usage data within the Telemetry framework.
13:57 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e5912337e7
14:04 Zoffix "Introspection into objects and meta-objects (turtles all the way down)"
14:04 Zoffix turtles? :)
14:05 Zoffix My google-fu gives https://www.amazon.com/Turtles-All-Down-John-Green/dp/0525555366  "It’s the most powerful and open book about mental illness that I have read, and it’s required reading for everyone"
14:06 Zoffix Found it in the brochure https://github.com/tpf/marketing-materials/blob/master/Perl6_Booklet/2017_A5_Booklet/A5-Booklet-60page.pdf
14:07 Zoffix (page 8)
14:07 lizmat Zoffix: I think this is the source of that meme? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_(world)
14:08 Zoffix Ah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
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14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo: de961b8146 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | lib/Telemetry.pm6
14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo: Oops, T:I:Usage.cpus didn't work in reports
14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo:
14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo: - because it was missing from T:I:Usage.formats
14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo: - also slightly speed up calculation
14:24 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/de961b8146
14:51 Geth ¦ rakudo: 246f410134 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/06-telemetry/02-usage.t
14:51 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add basic Telemetry::Instrument::Usage testing
14:51 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/246f410134
14:51 Geth ¦ rakudo: 06cbe9c29c | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | t/06-telemetry/01-basic.t
14:51 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add editing footer
14:52 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/06cbe9c29c
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15:26 lizmat afk&
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16:57 Zoffix .ask can you run the first draft of the brochure remake by wolfy? It doesn't have to become the new brochure, so if you hate it, just say no. I'll also DM it to Mark Keating on Twitter. Link: https://github.com/perl6/marketing/raw/master/pub/Introducing-Perl6-Brochure.pdf
16:57 yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to can.
17:04 * Zoffix is & for ~6h
17:08 [Coke] Zoffix: '.ask can' ?
17:17 Zoffix .ask lizmat can you run the first draft of the brochure remake by wolfy? It doesn't have to become the new brochure, so if you hate it, just say no. I'll also DM it to Mark Keating on Twitter. Link: https://github.com/perl6/marketing/raw/master/pub/Introducing-Perl6-Brochure.pdf
17:17 yoleaux Zoffix: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
18:21 Zoffix Mark said it looks OK and he's fine with splitting off the book excerpts into a separate booklet (listing another benefit of doing so: ease of translation)
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18:25 lizmat .
18:25 yoleaux 17:17Z <Zoffix> lizmat: can you run the first draft of the brochure remake by wolfy? It doesn't have to become the new brochure, so if you hate it, just say no. I'll also DM it to Mark Keating on Twitter. Link: https://github.com/perl6/marketing/raw/master/pub/Introducing-Perl6-Brochure.pdf
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18:37 Zoffix I haven't actually read any of the text from the original brochure... I notice some things still refer to content/structure of old brochure :P
18:41 Zoffix change intro para to read this instead (removed all the layout/books mentions) https://i.imgur.com/RPGtiNr.png
18:41 Zoffix *changed
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18:47 lizmat Zoffix: there seems room in "Built-in types and operators for operations with Sets, Bags, and Mixes" to mention examples, such as ∈ (is element of) and ∩ (intersection)
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18:49 lizmat Zoffix: s/elminating/eliminating/
18:51 [Coke] laminating
18:55 lizmat Zoffix++ # way cool  :-)
18:56 Zoffix lizmat: added, though I used ASCII ops: https://i.imgur.com/iNXP7in.png  a bit worried of using Unicode ops in there and distracting with "how the hell do I type that" thoughts
18:56 lizmat Fine by me  :-)
18:56 lizmat s/such/such as/ ?
18:57 Zoffix Ah right. Fixed
18:57 Zoffix Also, I didn't add periods at the end of bulleted items on purpose :)
18:57 lizmat yeah, I saw what you did (not) do there :-)
18:58 lizmat cool...  I guess we will try to find some printer that can print use a few copies for this weekend's T-Dose
18:59 Zoffix OK. I'll wait a bit for more typos to be spotted (and look over it myself some more) and then generate the print-quality PDF then
19:00 lizmat Zoffix++
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19:03 lizmat so, if I read correctly: http://news.perlfoundation.org/2017/11/call-for-proposals-november-20.html
19:04 lizmat there is not going to be a November 2017 round, right ?
19:04 lizmat [Coke]: ^^^ ?
19:04 [Coke] Correct.
19:04 [Coke] Hopefully we can start back up in January
19:04 lizmat then Perl Weekly didn't get the message: https://twitter.com/PerlWeekly/status/929806581923024897
19:08 [Coke] lizmat: replied. thanks.
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19:56 * lizmat wonders whether [Coke]  needs a nudge wrt to posting a grant report
19:57 lizmat sorry [Coke]: I just hear it was someone else who needed nudging first :-)
20:04 ufobat why do some parts in rakudo use (a regular) if where other parts use nqp::if?
20:08 moritz mostly a question of performance
20:08 moritz Perl 6 "if" coerces the condition to a Bool
20:11 ufobat ty :)
20:19 Zoffix huh? What do you mean? Doesn't `if ... {}` compile to nqp::if?
20:20 jnthn Yes. The performance differences are more in the block/introduction of an extra scope
20:21 Zoffix Yeah. Also, in some places an `nqp::if` instead of an `if {}` is used likely 'cause there's other nqp code used. It keeps it consistent and looks prettier to have just pure NQP nest
20:21 Zoffix m: for ^1000_000 { if rand { $ = $ } }; say now - INIT now
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «0.67543181␤»
20:21 Zoffix m: for ^1000_000 { $ = $ if rand }; say now - INIT now
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «0.285267␤»
20:22 timotimo m: use nqp; for ^1000_000 { nqp::if(rand, $ = $) }; say now - INIT now
20:22 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «0.2551589␤»
20:24 Zoffix m: use nqp; nqp::if(class {method Bool { say "booliefied" } }, nqp::null)
20:24 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «booliefied␤»
20:24 lizmat m: use nqp; nqp::if(rand, $ = $) for ^1000_000; say now - INIT now
20:24 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «0.30504163␤»
20:24 lizmat hmmm...
20:25 lizmat m: use nqp; nqp::if(rand, $ = $) for ^1000_000; say now - INIT now
20:25 camelia rakudo-moar 06cbe9c29: OUTPUT: «0.22861110␤»
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20:30 Geth ¦ nqp: 2e12d4750b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | tools/build/MOAR_REVISION
20:30 Geth ¦ nqp: Bump MoarVM
20:30 Geth ¦ nqp: review: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/2e12d4750b
20:30 Geth ¦ nqp: version bump brought these changes: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/compare/2017.10-57-gd257df2...2017.10-70-gb379050
20:30 Geth ¦ rakudo: b2fbf893db | (Zoffix Znet)++ | tools/build/NQP_REVISION
20:30 Geth ¦ rakudo: Bump NQP
20:30 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/b2fbf893db
20:30 Zoffix ZOFVM: Files=1283, Tests=152837, 148 wallclock secs (20.85 usr  2.96 sys + 3195.93 cusr 160.20 csys = 3379.94 CPU)
20:31 Zoffix Also, a ton of passing TODOs in sprintf tests: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/b7edfc29490f9ace35f1a5dd5c45351f
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21:09 Geth ¦ rakudo: 88a9cb259e | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
21:09 Geth ¦ rakudo: 'make test' should also do Telemetry tests
21:09 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/88a9cb259e
21:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: 88d6751664 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp
21:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: Fix typo in error message
21:10 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/88d6751664
21:31 * lizmat nudges [Coke] again
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22:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: ufobat++ created pull request #1249: RFC && 3rd attempt: Fixed resolve of IO::Path for Windows
22:01 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1249
22:01 synopsebot RAKUDO#1249 [open]: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1249 RFC && 3rd attempt: Fixed resolve of IO::Path for Windows
22:01 ufobat !! Zoffix ;-)
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22:11 lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/11/13/2017-46-spesh-explained/
22:11 teatime yay
22:12 Zoffix \o/
22:13 teatime "concatenation of strings from O² to O¹"  interesting notation
22:13 teatime does that mean the same thing as O(n²) to O(1) ?
22:13 teatime or O(n) maybe
22:15 lizmat teatime: changed :-)
22:16 timotimo lizmat: last paragraph has "rakudo" rather than "Rakudo"
22:16 teatime looks the same here.  did you markdown converter eat parts of it?
22:17 teatime s/markdown/markup/
22:17 lizmat timotimo: argh, yeah, had seen that, forgotten to fix: now fixed   # timotimo++
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22:18 timotimo :)
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22:25 thundergnat .tell Zoffix Typo in brochure, page 9 under "Perl 6 is a brand new language" - "such us Python, C, and Perl 5", should be as
22:25 yoleaux thundergnat: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
22:27 Zoffix lizmat++ # good weekly
22:27 yoleaux 22:25Z <thundergnat> Zoffix: Typo in brochure, page 9 under "Perl 6 is a brand new language" - "such us Python, C, and Perl 5", should be as
22:28 timotimo yes, good weekly!
22:29 Zoffix I've just deleted the community tweet tho
22:29 thundergnat Zoffix Also, bikeshedding a bit, "end up as much as twice shorter" reads oddly to me, perhaps "end up substantially shorter" or "need substantially less code" Otherwise Zoffix++!
22:29 Zoffix It was just a nasty experience and don't want even more people telling me crap about it
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22:30 lizmat Zoffix: understandable
22:30 Ven joined #perl6-dev
22:30 lizmat anyways, Tommy Stanton's tweet stands well on its own
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22:32 timotimo where is that tweet? i can't find it
22:32 timotimo oh, lizmat, the "meanwhile on twitter" heading is part of the previous link
22:32 timotimo oh, oops
22:32 timotimo i was looking at last week's post
22:33 lizmat ?
22:33 lizmat ah
22:36 Geth ¦ rakudo: d6a3a7a1aa | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
22:36 Geth ¦ rakudo: Add basic testing for T:I:Thread/ThreadPool
22:36 Geth ¦ rakudo: review: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/d6a3a7a1aa
22:37 Zoffix thundergnat: thanks. Typo fixed in sources; will update repo later. For bikeshedding: "substantially shorter" is too vague a quantity. "Half the size" is a measure I heard several times and matches my most scientific measurement of converting my own code.
22:40 thundergnat Zoffix Yeah, substantially does sound kind-of like a weasel word. "Half the size" reads much better than "twice shorter"
22:42 Zoffix thundergnat: changed it to: "Many programmers report their programs become up to half the size, when converted from other languages to Perl 6, without sacrificing legibility."
22:43 thundergnat Zoffix++
22:45 Zoffix ufobat: won't have time to review it today, but briefly looking at the code, I wonder two things: (1) why is the volume being checked on every loop iteration; shouldn't it be just set by shifting from the list (while checking there's stuff to shift) before the loop? Also: what happens with the $!CWD attribute of the resultant path? Looks like here it's just being set to `$sep`, which would end up as just
22:45 Zoffix `\` without a volume on Windows, won't it? https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1249/files#diff-13f6575d865e3d4c43a478dfcb4ea969R332
22:46 * Zoffix calls it a night
22:46 lizmat good night, Zoffix!
22:47 ufobat Zoffix, n8 :-)
22:54 Zoffix ufobat: P.S.: I said "shift" above, but I didn't read the code enough to know if it's shift that's needed or just an assignment of the first element.
22:55 Zoffix So check which one is right :)
22:57 wander do we ought to add `use v6;` in every .t file of roast? is it for historical reason or for explicit?
23:02 * lizmat also calls it a night
23:02 timotimo nite lizmat
23:04 timotimo bloatable6: releases
23:05 bloatable6 timotimo, https://gist.github.com/aead9fe84f8cd0a3642ddc6d9ee9c0bb
23:08 timotimo statisfiable6: core0
23:08 statisfiable6 timotimo, OK! Working on it…
23:09 statisfiable6 timotimo, https://gist.github.com/321b00595afea91003f9286724b8a8f5
23:10 timotimo i wonder if we'll come up with something good to make our core setting actually smaller
23:11 timotimo the core setting has hardly any regexes in it, so getting NFA to be represented better won't do much for that
23:11 AlexDaniel oh statisfiable6, what a good boy :)
23:12 AlexDaniel (or girl?)
23:12 * AlexDaniel is happy that rarely used bots still work as expected
23:13 AlexDaniel statisfiable6: libmoar0
23:13 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, OK! Working on it…
23:15 AlexDaniel timotimo: but what is this sudden bump? Seems to be https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/9837687d93c907ec232b1c7635776aa0c7faa6bc
23:16 timotimo yeah, that makes sense
23:16 statisfiable6 joined #perl6-dev
23:16 timotimo oh my
23:16 AlexDaniel statisfiable6: libmoar0
23:16 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, OK! Working on it…
23:17 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/bd8e0c7c2e874476693417ad43f06297
23:18 AlexDaniel one of them is https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/64dd94c250c72c23f6e82f0fedcda39ace551468
23:19 AlexDaniel then there's also
23:19 AlexDaniel Geth: ver https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/2724a8514474c2f91f7236cfed7644df27d49f1e
23:19 Geth AlexDaniel, version bump brought in these changes: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/compare/2017.09-38-ga0618a6...2017.09-40-ga6a1aa0
23:20 AlexDaniel Geth: ver https://github.com/perl6/nqp/commit/a6a1aa0b48691978237d94b0d4deb2eee98b028a
23:20 Geth AlexDaniel, version bump brought in these changes: https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/compare/2017.09.1-62-g89ca8eb...2017.09.1-553-ga4fef0b
23:20 AlexDaniel so unicode 10 and JIT
23:22 timotimo that's not so surprising
23:25 Geth ¦ roast: 8182813960 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | S32-str/sprintf-b.t
23:25 Geth ¦ roast: Unfudge now passing tests
23:25 Geth ¦ roast: review: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/8182813960
23:26 lizmat really bed&
23:26 AlexDaniel statisfiable6: install0
23:26 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, OK! Working on it…
23:27 statisfiable6 joined #perl6-dev
23:27 AlexDaniel statisfiable6: install0
23:27 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, OK! Working on it…
23:28 statisfiable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/170c5a3304dc9eca48c2c574b7b3366d
23:28 AlexDaniel (it caches the numbers, so there are less problems if you ask for these graphs more often…)
23:48 jnthn lizmat++ # weekly

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