Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6-toolchain, 2016-01-10

| Channels | #perl6-toolchain index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
02:49 ilbot3 joined #perl6-toolchain
02:49 Topic for #perl6-toolchain is now Fire is step THREE! | https://github.com/perl6/toolchain-bikeshed | Channel logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-toolchain/today
11:58 woolfy joined #perl6-toolchain
11:58 woolfy left #perl6-toolchain
12:01 woolfy joined #perl6-toolchain
12:01 woolfy left #perl6-toolchain
12:20 sivoais joined #perl6-toolchain
14:18 leont joined #perl6-toolchain
14:28 sjn joined #perl6-toolchain
15:09 mst lizmat: um, I never said anybody was trying to destroy anything
15:09 mst lizmat: I specifically called out it as a communication problem
15:09 mst lizmat: and I'm trying to get the fixes in, just in a co-ordinated fashion
15:10 mst lizmat: I'm tired of you jumping at random to anti-perl5 rants when I'm trying to stand in the middle and keep everybody happy here; if you want to yell at somebody, find somebody who's actually against you, I'm sure there's somebody somehwere
15:11 mst meanwhile, the proximate thing that went wrong was the trial PSIXDISTS uploads switched from dev releases (which most things skip) to "real" releases (which most things don't) via a two line conversation on #metacpan that it appears both of the participants in misunderstood the purpose and results of
15:13 mst I got those two people talking originally. I've invited them both into here. And I think their effort is probably going to be the right thing in the long run, and I -do- believe that using the cpan file distribution mechanism will be at least *a* useful mechanism of distributing perl6 modules, even if there are likely to be others as well
15:14 mst what I'm talking about is making sure we do it right, and trying to minimise *unexpected* breakage for people downstream of what we're doing, and try and make sure the people who'll see expected breakage know about it in advance
15:29 * mst still suspects that having the primary non-dev upload feed filter out Perl6/ would quite possibly be sufficient, though I'd like to double check that with people
15:49 mst lizmat: if there's sections about using cpan for perl6 in the Lancaster or Berlin Consensus documents, could you point them out to me? Those might be useful for rolling up and thwapping people with who don't remember :)
16:53 sjn \o
16:54 * sjn reads the irclog
16:54 sjn happy to see a channel for working on toolchain stuff :)
17:01 mst lizmat: thinking about this, I think maybe the best answer is to have the current pause feed that everybody assumes is a perl5 feed exclude the Perl6/ directory, then mint two new feeds - one for Perl6/ stuff and one combined. then we can all have what we want without confusing existing downstream consumers. does that seem like a sane idea to you?
17:01 * mst is happy to propose it to modules@/andk and shepherd it through if so
17:03 * sjn has some notes that he and tadzik jotted down last year. anyone interested in this braindump? :)
17:04 mst absolutely.
17:04 sjn lots of bikesheddingthere :-P
17:05 sjn http://pad.hackeriet.no/p/p6-deploy-guidelines (with links to related braindumps)
17:06 sjn https://github.com/sjn/perl6-example-dist (initial attempt at making a "complete" example distribution, with all kinds of issues to handle)
17:06 mst this looks like it's a worthwhile document to have to inform further panda/zef/etc. development
17:07 * sjn hoped to have worked a bit more on this with tadzik, but things didn't turn out well for that
17:07 * sjn toddles off to the flight to CPH
17:07 sjn back in a few hours
17:07 mst sjn: I'm going to add you to the bikeshed repo, throw this in there somewhere please
17:15 ugexe should we change (or add a new similar) license field in the meta spec that is not a url but a name that can easily be grepped?
17:16 mst handling the Software::License names would be nice
17:16 Topic for #perl6-toolchain is now Fire is step THREE! | https://github.com/perl6/toolchain-bikeshed | Channel logs: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-toolchain/today | useful prior art: https://metacpan.org/pod/CPAN::Meta::Spec
17:17 mst here we go, this is the perl5 version - https://metacpan.org/pod/CPAN::Meta::Spec#license
17:17 mst I wonder if allowing, say, license:foo for a name, and then a URL for anything else, might be neat
17:18 autarch If the system doesn't involve generating a Makefile that contains portable shell to execute p6, I'm not sure it wlil be a _real_ system
17:18 mst ugexe: just some thoughts, no particular recommendation
17:18 mst autarch: the CPAN::Meta spec might be useful prior art, but the makemaker source code not so much
17:18 ugexe im trying to incorporate it into the config like bsd ports, but any way to white/black list is good in my book
17:18 autarch obviously I was joking - yes, I think there's a lot to take from CPAN::Meta
17:18 mst although admittedly MY:: in EUMM is the first ever instance of runtime role application in the wild so :)
18:42 leont Yeah, MM is not something I'd like to copy
18:44 mst I do think 'being able to do the moral equivalent of "make -n"' is worthwhile
18:44 mst I don't think any of the implementation is ;)
18:45 nine One real huge adavantage Perl 6 has is that the final copying of files is under control of a core class. That's why (low level) uninstall will be so easy to implement
18:47 mst I'm mostly interested in 'make -n' for being able to debug compilation issue. I guess the idea is NativeCall means you shore those off to a separate package
18:48 leont Same is true in p5, the code class (ExtUtils::Install) just happens to suck
18:48 leont s/code/core/
18:56 lizmat mst: https://github.com/Perl-Toolchain-Gang/toolchain-site/blob/master/lancaster-consensus.md nor https://github.com/Perl-Toolchain-Gang/toolchain-site/blob/master/berlin-consensus.md contain anything about Perl 6
18:57 mst lizmat: right. so apparently we don't so much have a communication breakdown as a russian doll made of layers of communication breakdowns
18:57 lizmat why?  because everybody was busy with the Perl 5 toolchain
18:57 mst and because presumably none of the perl6 attendees added their discussions to the document as it was being put together, probably due to yet another communication breakdown somewhere
18:57 lizmat the *only* reason I attended the Lancaster, Lyon, Berlin QA hackathons, was to make sure we would have some kind of communication about Perl 6
18:58 mst yeah, well, next one, let's make sure the perl6 stuff actually makes it into the minutes
18:58 lizmat well, my feeling at the time, was that it was considered something that was not important
18:58 lizmat sounds like a plan to me
18:59 lizmat meanwhile, I should stress that FROGGS++ has spent quite some time in the PAUSE code to make uploads to PAUSE possible without breaking anything
18:59 mst yeah, well, after this long, I don't think people really believed anymore, which while unfortunate is, given the timelines involved and previous messaging they'd heard from the perl6 project, quite understandable
18:59 lizmat and since the pluggability of the PAUSE code is below zero, I think that was quite a feat
18:59 mst I am annoyed by the situation but I don't think it was really anybody's fault exactly
19:00 mst and I think with the RSS feeds tweaked in the way I describe, we can experiment all we like without causing any other unexpected complications for downstream consumers
19:00 lizmat well, you touched a nerve when you said "and since nobody talked to the perl5 toolchain team first"
19:01 mst well, I went through the #toolchain logs which is how you normally do that and couldn't find anything significant since 2009 when moritz was saying "we should totally collaborate, but we're not sure what our side needs yet"
19:01 lizmat because trying to talk to the perl5 toolchain team is the reason I have attended the past 3 QA hackathons to begin with
19:02 mst right, and then none of your efforts made it into any of the write ups so there was no way for me to tell that had even happened
19:02 lizmat and I can tell you, despite the good people there, I can think of nicer places to be hacking
19:02 nine Oh come on, the food was great :)
19:02 nine tina++ tina++
19:03 mst well, yeah, you haad the year of schwern ranting at everybody, and the year of riba ranting at everybody ...
19:05 mst anyway. one of the reasons I'm here is to try and make this go more sensibly
19:05 lizmat nine: funny you should say that
19:05 mst I know how to wrangle that bunch of crazy masochists just fine
19:05 lizmat if you're there...  :-)
19:05 mst and that's why I'm going to do this on #toolchain, where I am always there :D
19:06 * leont did way less p6 toolchain in Berlin than he had planned to
19:06 mst I want 'uploads to PAUSE possible without breaking anything' to be true, including where possible downstream values of 'anything', because that's how toolchainery works
19:08 mst (actually, one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of hackathon type events is *because* of stuff not getting written down, thereby resulting in disconnects like this that bite us on the arse later)
19:09 mst lizmat: so, on that basis, what do you reckon to the three feeds idea?
19:10 lizmat I was not aware that there was such a thing as a "feed"
19:10 nine lizmat: and of course Wendy++ Wendy++ :)
19:10 lizmat I was given the impression it was basically all rsyncs
19:10 mst you're confusing PAUSE and cpan
19:10 lizmat ah, could be  :-)
19:10 mst cpan, the giant distributed filesystem, is rsyncs or the moral equiavlent thereof
19:11 mst PAUSE, the server that accepts uploads and adds them to the master copy of the cpan, provides a feed of recent uploads
19:11 mst so for example freenode #perl sees every upload to CPAN announced
19:11 lizmat mst: anyways, 3 feeds sounds like a plan to me
19:11 mst #toolchain sees things like ExtUtils:: and Module::
19:11 lizmat and have the Perl 6 only feed report to #perl6
19:11 flussence ugexe: (2h ago) before we go off inventing new license shorthand (which I agree would be nice), has anyone heard of SPDX? It's supposed to standardise all that (in a way dumb source scanners can agree with)
19:12 mst and downstream packagers use it to see what's changed so they can keep their packages up to date
19:12 mst all of these users became a trifle confused when the PSIXDISTS uploads began
19:14 lizmat wrt to writing things down: might I point out that without Wendy making the miinutes of both the Lancaaster and Berlin Consensus, there wouldn't have been much to communicate
19:14 mst lizmat: yeah, having it easy for us to do that seemed like rather a win anyway
19:14 mst (wrt the #perl6 upload feed idea)
19:15 mst might I point out that my only real comments here are that (a) I wasn't there so I don't know (b) that means if it wasn't written down - for whatever reason - I didn't have a realistic way of knowing
19:16 mst I don't think trying to figure out whose 'fault' it was/wasn't is productive, I think we just need to make sure that if it's something people could be blindsided by, it gets written down somewhere in future
19:18 ranguard yea, especially for who ever uplaoded all those PSIXDISTS, and I view that as a way of testing where things need reviewing ;)
19:20 lizmat mst: I will make sure there will be something written down the next QA hackathon  :-)
19:22 * mst dumps the idea in #toolchain for discussion before I file it as an issue against PAUSE
19:25 mst 19:24 <@klapperl> wfm
19:40 mst created https://github.com/andk/pause/issues/198 to track it
19:42 hankache joined #perl6-toolchain
19:46 mst ranguard: ^^ you might have some useful input on this
19:58 ranguard mst: other than https://github.com/CPAN-API/cpan-api/blob/master/lib/MetaCPAN/Script/Release.pm#L127-L130 that's all the involvement I've had so far
19:58 mst right

| Channels | #perl6-toolchain index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary