Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-02-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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02:12 crysflame a period after was not would be nea
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02:12 crysflame i don't think the comma is required, unless you're saying it like "That part of my car exploded, though, was not"
02:12 crysflame as the commas are used to interjecct. was not isn't an interjection. yey elements of style.
02:41 Steve_p heh, comma-talk continues :)
02:42 Odin-LAP I thought comma had already been implemented? :D
02:47 crysflame heh
02:56 autrijus hey.
03:02 autrijus hm. I should make it crystal clear that Pugs wants ActivePerl/MinGW's Perl
03:03 autrijus and not CygPerl.
03:05 Odin-LAP How strong of a REPL loop thingy is Pugs going to have? :>
03:06 autrijus I'd like eventually to implement most of hugs commands :)
03:06 autrijus see Shell.hs
03:07 autrijus in particular, :l and :e will be helpful
03:07 autrijus as would :b
03:07 autrijus patches welcome :)
03:07 Odin-LAP Hm.
03:08 * Odin-LAP ponders going off on a (or yet another) tangent and learning Haskell...
03:08 autrijus you can read a few pages of YAHT per day :)
03:09 Odin-LAP Hm?
03:10 autrijus see "Where can I learn more about Haskell?"
03:10 autrijus http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/docs/01Overview.html
03:10 crysflame autrijus: hmm, yep.
03:10 autrijus yaht = yet another haskell tutorial
03:10 crysflame crystal clear.
03:11 autrijus yeah. it now dies if $^O eq 'cygwin'.
03:11 crysflame heh, neat
03:11 crysflame why cygwin bad?
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03:11 crysflame ^is
03:11 autrijus not bad, just lack of a porter for ghc
03:11 autrijus hence, bitrotted
03:11 clkao morning autrijus
03:12 autrijus ghc is more MinGW minded.
03:12 crysflame ah.
03:12 autrijus hi clkao.
03:12 crysflame does ghc compile under cygwin?
03:12 autrijus not sure. never tried.
03:20 autrijus going to airport now.
03:20 autrijus hopefully resume network in a hour
03:20 * autrijus waves &
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05:37 scw Hello, I've just maintioned that thet word 'Synopses' in home page and overview should be a miss-spelling of 'synopsis'?
05:38 obra that's a plural, no?
05:38 mdiep yes, synopses is plural of synopsis
05:38 scw hmm... but, however, the url uses synopsis as well.
05:41 obra and? the url points to a singular.
05:41 obra scw: as a native speaker, it looks sane to me.
05:41 scw obra: Oh! Then that's fine :)
05:42 obra heh.  (you'll see that perl.org uses synopses in the text as well ;)
05:44 scw (It seems that I should be more concentrated in English class...)
05:46 obra what's your native language, scw?  Do note that 'synopses' isn't very common, even for native speakers
05:46 scw obra: Chinese, I'm from Taiwan.
05:47 obra an. XD   will you be at yapc.tw?
05:47 mdiep also, hypotheses is the plural of hypothesis
05:47 scw obra: Sure! I've registered and payed!
05:47 obra cool. I'll meet you there
05:48 scw Are you one of the speakers?
05:49 obra <- Jesse Vincent (yes)
05:51 scw obra: Oh! You talked (and will talk) about RT! I participated YAPT.tw last year, too!
05:53 obra ah :)
05:53 obra Yes, RT is my baby
06:06 mugwump young child more like ... it'l be a teenager before you know it
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06:14 mugwump so speaking of things in double digits, has anyone tackled pugs tests for Synopses 10+?
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07:31 autrijus rehi from HKG!
07:32 clkao happy?
07:32 autrijus the whitespace problem introduced by luqui's qwinv patch has been fixed.
07:32 autrijus was very silly
07:32 autrijus $x < $y > $z
07:32 autrijus # parsed as $x{'$y'} $z
07:33 autrijus chained comparison now works again.
07:33 autrijus looking thru the test failures now
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08:05 autrijus sig, ($x-- + $x--) is calculated thrice.
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08:05 * autrijus moans the lack of referential transparency
08:05 autrijus fixing.
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08:05 autrijus also, hi abstraction, edgewalk1r :)
08:11 abstraction hey
08:12 autrijus how did you find here?
08:12 autrijus <- preparing 6.0.9 release now
08:12 abstraction #perl
08:12 autrijus ahh.
08:13 * autrijus goes there
08:14 abstraction so how much of the known perl6 syntax has been implemented in pugs?
08:15 autrijus class and objects is missing; rules is missing
08:15 autrijus the rest is pretty much all there
08:15 autrijus but there's lots of corner cases.
08:15 autrijus so we're porting perl5's unit tests here
08:16 autrijus to ensure that we have a solid foundation
08:16 autrijus and then build class/rules on them.
08:16 abstraction good stuff
08:16 autrijus oh, and "unpacking" in subroutine and := binding is not yet there.
08:16 autrijus but will be soon :)
08:16 autrijus yeah. it's fun.
08:18 autrijus so, got time to help out?
08:19 autrijus currently it's mostly porting $your_favourite_perl5_code to perl6, and/or write tests.
08:19 abstraction I assume I'm going to know haskell?
08:19 autrijus you don't have to if you don't want to :)
08:19 autrijus you can just treat pugs as a black box that happens to run some perl6 code...
08:19 autrijus ...and when it does not, yell it here so we can fix
08:20 autrijus (see "Overview" in pugscode.org)
08:20 abstraction sounds like a good way to get started with perl6 syntax
08:20 autrijus I certainly hope so :)
08:21 abstraction now we just need a haskell to pbc util :)
08:21 autrijus see "Compiler backend" part in the overview :)
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08:22 autrijus but it's more important to be Correct in treatment of synopses at this moment.
08:22 autrijus once the basic stuff is solid, we can then have a pretty good idea of how to generate parrot AST.
08:22 autrijus and once that's done, pugs can be ported to perl6 and finish the bootstrap.
08:23 autrijus (of course, if PGE/P6C is ready by then, we won't need to do the bootstrap here.)
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08:23 autrijus hi sorje.
08:24 theorbtwo (Or we could bootstrap the other way, and make a haskell to parrot compiler.  More work, but could be interesting... at least to somebody that actually knows haskell.)
08:24 autrijus yup. if people want to do that, look at GHC.Net
08:25 autrijus Core->pasm is certainly interesting.
08:25 autrijus (Core is GHC's internal language)
08:25 autrijus it's far larger in scope though.
08:26 autrijus it will also help if someone interested in C can look at parrot/ast/.
08:27 autrijus and report back what can be done with it to make Pugs AST align with parrot AST
08:27 sorje hi autrijus
08:27 autrijus hey.
08:28 autrijus because it looks like parrot ast has a builtin ast->pasm compiler
08:28 autrijus if that is the case, we may no longer have to write any compiler at all.
08:28 autrijus just emit parrot ast and let parrot take over.
08:38 scw autrijus: Hello, when I was writing Advanced calculus homework, some part of the overview was translated to Chinese XD
08:38 scw autrijus: http://w.csie.org/~b92103/01Overview.zh.html
08:39 autrijus ooh!
08:39 autrijus viirya: coordinate! :)
08:39 autrijus scw++
08:39 scw autrijus: The translation is not very smooth, however...
08:40 autrijus please translate "Apocryphon" as "¥~¨å", i.e. "Pugs ¥~¨å¤§¤@: Pugs ­p¹º·§»¡"
08:40 scw ok.
08:42 gugod is this in only html format ? we could put it as a aprt of p610n
08:42 gugod s/aprt/a part/
08:42 autrijus gugod: POD can't handle named links
08:43 autrijus gugod: if you will translate it to Kwid, I'd be very very grateful
08:43 gugod right
08:43 autrijus # http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/lib/Perl6/lib/perlkwid.kwid
08:43 gugod that's actually my idea
08:43 autrijus and once it's in kwid, then sure, it can be part of p6l10n
08:43 autrijus *nod*
08:44 autrijus gugod: HTML2Pod may be useful
08:44 autrijus on cpan
08:44 autrijus i.e. hack it a bit and let it emit kwid instead
08:46 gugod right
08:50 autrijus hm.
08:50 autrijus can any Val be used as hash key?
08:50 autrijus in p5 we stringify all keys
08:50 autrijus can p6 use arbitary values?
08:50 autrijus currently it is a problem because Int 2 and Num 2.0 and String '2' can point to different values
08:50 autrijus which is clearly broken
08:51 jiing scw: s/¨ÑÄm/°^Äm/
08:52 autrijus I'll use Hash as Str keys only for now.
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08:53 viirya autrijus: hum?
08:53 autrijus viirya: see scw's url above -- the text needs some work but would be a good start
08:54 autrijus just don't want you two to duplicate work, that's all :)
08:54 autrijus asked the hashkey question on p6l.
08:54 viirya autrijus: I have done part of it. :)
08:54 abstraction can p6 hash keys be anything? string, int, obj, etc? are are they supposed to be stringified?
08:54 autrijus abstraction: I can't find it in the synopses.
08:54 autrijus abstraction: pugs is currently Anything
08:54 autrijus but it creates a problem because Str "2" and Int 2
08:54 autrijus can point to different keys
08:55 autrijus which is I think not what most people will accept
08:55 abstraction but Str 2 and Int 2 are different
08:55 autrijus they are.
08:55 abstraction makes sense to me then
08:55 autrijus my %hash = (1..4); %hash<1> # undef, wtf?"
08:55 autrijus or, even worse
08:56 autrijus my %hash = (1..4); %hash{1.0} # undef?
08:56 abstraction p5 people aren't used to types
08:56 autrijus so very true.
08:57 abstraction but how often do you have a hash with various types?
08:57 abstraction er mixed types
08:57 autrijus well, in typed languages
08:57 autrijus you can restrict the key type
08:57 abstraction probably not very often
08:57 autrijus so it's usually not a problem.
08:57 autrijus but by default, keys are just Scalars
08:57 abstraction ah
08:58 autrijus maybe we can restrict hash keys to be unified type.
08:58 autrijus it's slightly bizzare.
08:58 autrijus well, very bizzare and radical.
08:58 abstraction 1 type to rule them all.
08:58 autrijus and that is the Scalar type? ;)
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09:14 CDybedahl Synopsis 9 says:
09:14 CDybedahl To declare a hash that can take any object as a key rather than just a string, say something like:
09:15 CDybedahl my %hash is shape(Any);
09:15 CDybedahl Seems to me that means that hash keys are strings by default.
09:17 CDybedahl I guess you could argue that if you ask for any sort of keys, you're also asking for "2", 2 and 2.0 to be treated as different.
09:19 autrijus oh.
09:19 autrijus is shape().
09:19 autrijus okay, thanks!
09:19 autrijus CDybedahl++
09:19 autrijus string interpolation bug finally tracked down.
09:19 autrijus luqui was using prefix:<~> to concat strings. fancy that :-)
09:22 autrijus mm my passport was left on the plane.
09:22 autrijus mm but they found it.
09:22 * autrijus about to board to Beijing
09:22 autrijus see you in ~3hrs, hopefully with 6.0.9 tarball :)
09:22 * autrijus waves &
09:23 abstraction later autrijus
09:25 CDybedahl This command: pugs -e 'for (1..4) -> $i { if (($i%2)!=0) {say $i} }'
09:25 CDybedahl ...prints 1, 3 and 4. Surely that's not right?
09:25 CDybedahl If you change != to == it doesn't print anything at all.
09:26 abstraction that't not right
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09:28 luqui poke autrijus
09:29 luqui compare difference between: my @a = (1,2,3); "@a"
09:29 luqui and my @a = (1,2,3); " @a"
09:30 luqui re: changes in r325.  we need to give the whole string string context somehow...
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10:06 viirya autrijus: http://www.viirya.org/01Overview.zh.txt
10:07 viirya autrijus: it's early translated version. I just do half of it. You could check first.
10:08 viirya autrijus: If not urgent, I will finish the rest in next two days.
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13:44 * rgs makes an rpm of pugs
13:46 Juerd At the DPW, pugs was mentioned a lot of times :)
13:46 rgs it's a hot topic at fosdem too
13:47 Juerd It's great to see that everyone's so up to date
14:03 scw jiing: fixed, thanks :)
14:05 scw viirya: WOW! Your translation is wonderful!
14:07 viirya scw: thanks, just made half of it.
14:15 scw viirya: In 'What is the Perl 6 bootstrapping problem?', you translated 'Perl 6 Rules' into 'Perl 6 ³W«h' but leave the same word untranslated in 'Why did you choose Haskell?'
14:18 viirya scw: I will corrent it, it should not be translated.
14:19 scw viirya: It seems leave it untranslated is the best solution ^^"
14:22 viirya scw: yes.
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14:46 viirya the error is updated, and a bit of translation added.
14:46 viirya &
14:53 Steve_p Hmmm...tests for pairs seem broken
14:59 autrijus there's no wireless in the hotel :-/
14:59 autrijus the latency is >2snd on dialup :-/
15:00 autrijus >2seconds even
15:00 scw autrijus: So svk rules? XD
15:00 autrijus I'm afraid so
15:03 clkao great open source conference venue
15:11 wolverian autrijus: hey, I haven't yet asked that pattern question on p6l, I'll read the pattern guards paper before doing that. (just in case you were wondering)
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15:28 autrijus ok, cool
15:28 autrijus clkao: conference begins tomorrow morning; then we'll have wifi
15:28 autrijus hopefully will extend into the night... this is not even 14.4kbps
15:28 autrijus about 9600 baud
15:28 shapr Hey, did you send me the pdf already?
15:28 * autrijus has a deja vu feeling of telix and trumpet windsock
15:29 shapr haha, winsock :-)
15:29 shapr Been a few years since I've used trumpet winsock.
15:29 shapr Sure was a cool feeling the first time I got it working...
15:31 autrijus shapr: http://aut.dyndns.org/tmp/01Overview.pdf
15:31 shapr yay thanks!
15:31 autrijus but you can also just convert from tml...
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15:31 autrijus I wonder if there is a way to translate html to pdf while preserving the hyperlinks.
15:31 autrijus distiller maybe, but I don't have a copy of that.
15:31 autrijus OOo certain ly doesn't do that.
15:31 shapr I would very like that. I don't want to do latex again, I want wiki publishing with optional pdf/ps output.
15:32 autrijus riiight. I have a PDF::FromHTML module on CPAN.
15:32 autrijus but it doesn't grok hyperlinks yet.
15:32 autrijus wolverian: sure, take your time. :) thanks!
15:33 autrijus viirya++ # wonderful translation. i'm in no rush, so take your time :)
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17:09 autrijus ewwhew.
17:09 autrijus All tests successful, 4 subtests skipped.
17:09 autrijus Files=40, Tests=616, 26 wallclock secs ( 0.00 cusr +  0.00 csys =  0.00 CPU)
17:09 autrijus commit takes forever...
17:10 autrijus sigh. can't release  anything under this bandwidth
17:10 autrijus will have to wait till tomorrow morning :-)
17:14 wolverian dialup? people still use those? :/
17:15 autrijus and this is supposed to be one of the better beijing hotels :-/
17:15 autrijus (conference venue)
17:17 wolverian vandalize the minibar in retaliation.
17:18 obra how censored is your network?
17:18 autrijus I don't know because I tunnel everything thru ssh
17:18 obra I suppose you could do everything over ssh -C -D
17:18 autrijus nor do I want to know, really :)
17:18 obra heh
17:26 * statico finds a censored internet kind of creepy
17:27 autrijus journal up.
17:27 Khisanth hmm
17:27 autrijus see you tomorrow when I got more bandwidth :)
17:27 Khisanth autrijus: why are there some funny letters comming up from some of your lines?
17:28 autrijus Khisanth: extremely high latency renders control chars as literals
17:28 Khisanth ah
17:28 autrijus or, if you are talking about Big5 code, then they are big5 code.
17:29 autrijus you can usually tell one from another by checking for double quotes around them :)
17:29 Khisanth well it's erm 0x52 and 0x7F
17:29 autrijus oh. so definitely control code
17:30 autrijus 'nite! &
17:31 wolverian good night!
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18:00 integral I can't seem to find how to read a single line from a while, S02 just mentions using * with for to read all the lines
18:00 integral anyone know where I can be enlightened?
18:01 integral s/while/file/
18:03 pbuetow has left "Leaving"
18:05 nnunley integral: That would be how -- for *$handle { block is called for each line in file handle with $_ containing the current line }
18:06 nnunley So... I would guess that $line = *$handle would only fetch a single line.
18:07 nnunley Just as $line = <FILE> does, unless you've turn read mode slurpy.
18:07 integral hmm, ok, but...
18:08 integral also in S02, it mentions that the * unary op forces list context on its arg
18:10 Nei has joined #perl6
18:10 * nnunley reads.
18:10 nnunley Might require reading A02
18:11 nysin has left
18:12 integral ah, it says FHs are just iterators now
18:59 Steve_p Ah!  Better.  
18:59 * Steve_p hopefully provides an extinguisher for flames in ingy's journal
19:00 nnunley steve_p:  You're steve_p on use.perl, too?
19:01 clkao speters i guess?
19:02 Steve_p yep
19:12 ingy hola
19:12 ingy I got flamed?
19:13 pjcj 4/las ingy
19:13 pjcj bah ...
19:17 statico hi ingy
19:19 ingy Steve_p: nice comment
19:19 ingy hi statico
19:20 ingy sooo.... I finished and checked in perlkwid.kwid
19:20 ingy anyone care to review it for me?
19:21 Steve_p ingy, Ovid took offense
19:22 ingy Steve_p: yeah, I think he was too wired into a particular mode
19:22 ingy that's ok
19:22 clkao because he manages grants?
19:23 ingy Allison grokked me I think. So I'm not worried
19:23 statico on kwid?
19:23 Steve_p clkao, on money and being an open source developer with a family
19:24 ingy statico: http://use.perl.org/~ingy/journal/23384
19:24 clkao *nod*
19:24 ingy statico: can you review my perlkwid spec?
19:24 * clkao added pugs to ProjectsUsingSVK
19:25 Steve_p I prefer the "Steal Money" method of grants
19:25 statico ingy: sure
19:29 * statico agrees with the ten points
19:29 Steve_p ingy, did you kill .over or do I need to read more
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19:37 ingy Steve_p: .over is now .list
19:38 ingy Kwid ends up being significantly different from Kwiki
19:38 ingy In many ways it improves on Kwiki
19:38 ingy In some ways it has to deal with Pod legacy
19:39 ingy but Pod legacy isn't necessarily bad
19:40 ingy Pod is a rather nice language, and Kwid makes it much nicer to read and work with
19:41 ingy I really like the {*bold*} {/italic/} {`code`} constructs
19:42 ingy as bullet proof versions of the common *bold* /italic/ `code`
19:43 integral can you put unbalanced {s and }s in those?
19:43 ingy sure
19:43 integral :-)
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19:44 ingy the ending marker for '{`' is '`}'
19:44 integral so can you put `} in there?
19:44 ingy so anything else goes
19:44 ingy {{``}`}} is one way
19:44 integral ah, that's a good way
19:45 ingy {`\``} is the other
19:46 ingy a single backtick as code is {```}
19:47 ingy oops
19:47 ingy {`\`}`} is the other
19:48 ingy :)
19:48 ingy backticks for code is sooooo nice
19:49 ingy also there is the '{ ', ' }' markers
19:50 ingy { don't *format* anything in /here/ }
19:50 ingy aka the 'asis' format
19:51 ingy (it also makes whitespace be non-breaking)
19:51 integral sounds good :-)
19:51 ingy Backslash at the end of a line overrides folding
19:51 ingy which is logical
19:52 ingy it is an escaped newline
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19:56 ingy Kwid comments are handy too
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20:44 ingy autrijus: I got your copy of Perl 6 Now
20:44 ingy autrijus: hopefully it will be coffee stained and mangled by the time you get it
20:50 obra oh, ingy, my flights changed. I'll be arrivign earlier by a couple days
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20:59 ingy obra: they changed, or you changed them?
21:07 wolverian hm, okay, I think I finally understand pattern guards.
21:08 wolverian new terminology makes simple things hard.
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22:07 integral hmm, seems someone's found the == problem
22:07 buu Hrm. I need ghc
22:08 integral buu: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/download_ghc_622.html#windows
22:08 buu The pugs source doesn't need a C compiler does it?
22:08 buu integral: It doesn't run under cygwin properly =/
22:08 integral buu: on Intel GHC directly generates code
22:08 integral buu: no, that's why you run it natively
22:08 buu Yeah, but then it doesn't work with cygwin's perl
22:08 buu Whic is just a pain
22:09 integral well use your other perl
22:09 buu I don't have two perl's at the moment
22:09 integral oh
22:14 buu great
22:15 buu I installed ActivePerl, ran the makefile.pl, got a makefile, ran nmake and get 'invalid argument'
22:15 buu Which version of nmake am I supposed to have?
22:20 buu That's annoying =[
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22:39 Juerd How do people drive automatic cars and not fall asleep?
22:39 Juerd And don't you terribly want something to do for your left foot?
22:41 mugwump at least that means they both get stiff on a long drive not just the right foot
22:41 mugwump s/foot/leg/
22:42 mugwump need pedals down there to get some exercise while driving
22:43 wolverian get a bike? :)
22:43 Juerd mugwump: I don't care what the pedal's for, but let my left foot do something
22:43 Juerd If even pump up the airbag
22:43 Juerd Give it something to do
22:43 rgs listen to some jazz and beat the rythm.
22:43 Juerd For example
22:43 Juerd This temporary replacement car doesn't have audio
22:43 Juerd Which sucks
22:44 mugwump I go mad without lots of breaks
22:44 rgs ingy: your journal entry made me laugh. It's so you.
22:49 mugwump tho if I don't have any good breaks a bit of trance or even D'n'B will suffice
23:13 lightstep has quit IRC (""it's past 1 am again"")
23:54 luqui has quit IRC ("Leaving")

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