IRC log for #perl6, 2005-02-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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Time	S	Nick	Message
00:03			xern has joined #perl6
01:29			stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
01:29			stevan has joined #perl6
01:37		autrijus	greetings lambdacamels.
01:37		obra	autrijus, have you had tori do a logo of the camel with its legs in a lambda yet?
01:38		autrijus	no, not yet
01:38		autrijus	amahabal++# figuring out the parsing bug
01:39		* autrijus	tries mapping amahabal to an id here
01:41		* abstraction	still doesn't like _
01:41		Steve_p	evening autrijus
01:41			tea has joined #perl6
01:42		autrijus	hi testeve.
01:43		* autrijus	blames the still very high latency
01:43		autrijus	I wonder how good it will be to directly connect to freenode here
01:44		tea	Hello :) im playing with pugs, now
01:45		* tea	interested in the logical and fp style programing.
01:46		Steve_p	Hi tea.  There's quite a few fp style programmers here :)
01:48		tea	I got an implession at the y-combinator sample :)
01:50		tea	it was hard to understand for me before. until today I saw the sample in perl6.
01:51			Nei has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
01:51		autrijus	&?SUB you mean?
01:51		autrijus	I wonder where is such a sample :)
01:52		autrijus	tea: you grok ruby? many discussions here can benefit from rubyfolks' input
01:52		tea	autrijus: Yeah, that.
01:53		tea	autrijus: what is grok ?
01:53		tea	I'm new in this channel :)
01:53		autrijus	# http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/grok.html
01:53		autrijus	basically " understand"
01:53			autrijus_ has joined #perl6
01:54		autrijus_	latency test. 1.2.3...
01:54		mugwump	you really need to read the book to grok grok :)
01:54		autrijus_	ok, works. switching to chatzilla for now
01:54			autrijus is now known as autrijus[tw]
01:54			autrijus_ is now known as autrijus
01:55		autrijus	fixing () parsing now
01:55		autrijus	once that's done I'll just roll 6.0.9 during this all-tests-pass window :)
01:57		tea	ah thx, i read the page, but seem "grok" is a word hard to understand for me
01:57		mugwump	where are you living, tea?
01:58		tea	mugwump: japan, and I'm non-native english speaker
01:58		obra	is svn.perl.org up to date, autrijus?
01:58		autrijus	obra: sure is
01:58		autrijus	synced every night
01:58		obra	ok. a couple hours svn.perl.org was failing tests for me. let me test
01:59		obra	oh. I was 10 commits out of date
02:02		obra	still failing a bunch of tests
02:02		obra	what's the right way to hand off failures?
02:04		obra	Failed 10/40 test scripts, 75.00% okay. 55/426 subtests failed, 87.09% okay.
02:04		mugwump	todo_ok() ?
02:05		obra	that's just make test
02:05		autrijus	obra: syncup again
02:08		autrijus	obra: you really want to track openfoundry tough, if you're into realtime testing
02:09		autrijus	until I set up auto magic syncups
02:09		obra	nod.
02:10		autrijus	the debian leader is speaking.
02:11		autrijus	saying QA has to start at the beginning and can't be tackled on later -- now he starts talking about cat-herding techniques
02:11		autrijus	1000 cats and 10000 packages, that is
02:11		obra	t/operator "unexpected operator 'o'  was expecting ";"
02:12		autrijus	yup. that's the thing I'm fixing.
02:12		autrijus	anything else?
02:12		obra	that's it
02:12		autrijus	ok then. :)
02:12		obra	ubuntu hoary
02:12		stevan	autrijus: I just updated t/op/hash.t
02:12		autrijus	okie
02:13		stevan	all tests are still passing though :)
02:13		buu	autrijus: Anyidea why 'nmake' is giving me an "Fatal error: spawn failed : invalid argument" on win32?
02:13		autrijus	buu: activeperl + ghc msi?
02:13		obra	I'm watching Apocalypse Now
02:14		buu	autrijus: Right
02:15		buu	The perl Makefile.PL goes off without a hitch
02:16		autrijus	buu: "nmake pugs.exe"
02:16		autrijus	also see if typing "ghc --version" works
02:17		buu	"ghc --make -o pugs src/Main.hs -isrc"
02:17		buu	"NMAKE: fatal error U1045: spawn failed : invalid argument"
02:17			Odin-LAP has quit IRC ("What's this button do?")
02:17		buu	Stop.
02:17		buu	ghc --version
02:17		buu	The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.2.2
02:18		autrijus	how about you typing that line by hand?
02:18		autrijus	ghc --make -o pugs src/Main.hs -isrc
02:19		buu	Chasing modules...
02:19		buu	Compiling..
02:20		buu	Linking...
02:20		buu	No error.
02:20		autrijus	I suspect your nmake.exe is somehow weird.
02:20		buu	Reasonable
02:20		autrijus	did my Makefile.PL install it for you?
02:20		Steve_p	somewhat? ;)
02:20		buu	autrijus: Nope
02:21		buu	autrijus: I didn't see any mention of nmake in the makefile.
02:21		autrijus	try kill it from path
02:21		autrijus	run makefile.pl again
02:21		autrijus	which should download a good nmake.exe for you
02:21		buu	Where would makefile.pl put it?
02:21		autrijus	same path as your perl.exe
02:21		buu	Er, in the same folder as perl.exe?
02:21		autrijus	yup.
02:21		Steve_p	I usually do
02:21		autrijus	you can always move it away later
02:21		buu	Nope, not there
02:21		autrijus	yeah, you need to remove the nmake.exe from PATH first
02:22		autrijus	delete it or something
02:22		ingy	autrijus: hi
02:22		autrijus	the url to the installer is http://download.microsoft.com/[…]EN-US/Nmake15.exe
02:22		autrijus	hey ingy. nice to see kwid coming along that nicely!
02:23		buu	autrijus: Yeah, that's the one I god
02:23		buu	got*
02:23		autrijus	not sure what to do then. hmm.
02:23		autrijus	(it worksforme)
02:23		buu	Hrm
02:24		buu	I have nmake in my path someplace
02:24		buu	But it's not in \perl\bin
02:25		ingy	autrijus: how would you suggest I write a Kwid parser/formatter?
02:25		ingy	would it be best to do a perl5 one for now?
02:25		buu	Ah..
02:25		autrijus	ingy: if you have time to learn parsec
02:26		autrijus	do it in parsec :)
02:26		ingy	ok
02:26		autrijus	it will take just a few hours at most
02:26		ingy	I think parsec would make it easy
02:26		autrijus	sure will.
02:26		ingy	and I needd to learn it for the yaml parser anyway
02:26		autrijus	parsec is a preview of the power of p6rules :)
02:26		ingy	:)
02:27		ingy	autrijus: is parsec covered in yaht?
02:27		buu	autrijus: hrm
02:27		buu	autrijus: I removed nmake from my path, reran makefile.pl, it got nmake, I ran nmake, same error.
02:27		autrijus	ingy: no, read the parsec manual :)
02:27		autrijus	buu: 'fraid it's beyond me then :-/
02:27		ingy	ok
02:28		buu	Gah
02:28		ingy	did you get my comment that '=kwid' is not Kwid?
02:28		autrijus	if you'd have tuits to convert our build system to Build.PL
02:28		autrijus	ingy: yup. sorry for that
02:28		autrijus	buu: Build.PL would work
02:28		buu	tuits?
02:28		ingy	no worries
02:28		autrijus	tuits, as in cycles
02:28		autrijus	as in available time
02:28		buu	I see.
02:28		buu	Is tuits an actual word?
02:29		ingy	when I get a round tuit
02:29		buu	Ah.
02:29		* ingy	hands buu a round tuit
02:29		ingy	there you go
02:29		* buu	rolls it down the hall with a stick
02:30		buu	Hrm. How might I run the tests now?
02:31		buu	And are the tests supposed to pass?
02:33		stevan	buu: all the tests currently either pass or are labeled TODO
02:33		buu	oh
02:33		stevan	buu: and one is skipped
02:33		buu	"Failed (TODO) test" =]
02:33		autrijus	you can run the tests by hand using
02:33		autrijus	set HARNESS_PERL=pugs
02:34		stevan	actually I have been able to use 'prove' without any trouble
02:34		buu	Oh hey, I have prove.
02:34		autrijus	prove t\*
02:34		stevan	of course its in the same login session I did make-test (which may help)
02:34		autrijus	that'd do.
02:34		autrijus	remember to set harness_perl
02:34		autrijus	otherwise it will try to run p6 code wit p5
02:34		autrijus	which won't be very much fun
02:34		buu	Yeah
02:35		buu	t\03operator...NOK 15#  Failed Test (t\03operator.t at line 42, column 1)
02:35		buu	That's not supposed to happen?
02:35		stevan	buu: sometimes things break :)
02:35		buu	stevan: Just checking
02:36		stevan	buu: your welcome to try and figure out the bug :)
02:36		buu	Hrm
02:36		buu	t\op\recurse timed out
02:36		stevan	buu: yeah thats normal
02:37		buu	Failed 10/40 test scripts, 75% okay. 60/452 subtests failed, 86.73% okay.
02:37		stevan	buu: the t/03operator issue is with chained comparisons
02:37		autrijus	hmm, you're using openfoundry head?
02:37		stevan	AFAIK that is not implemented
02:37		autrijus	I'm fixing 03operator. it's almost there.
02:37		autrijus	no, it is now :)
02:37		autrijus	luqui broke it
02:37			autrijus has left
02:37			autrijus has joined #perl6
02:37		autrijus	sorry, bad keybinding
02:37		buu	autrijus: Maybe. I can update again
02:39		stevan	autrijus: there are other tests for chained comparisons in t/op/relational.t
02:39		stevan	maybe i should make a t/op/chained_comparisons.t
02:39		stevan	put them all in the same place
02:39		autrijus	actually I'd argue relational is the place to test chained cmps
02:39		ingy	dinner is ready
02:39		autrijus	since they're just standard feature in p6
02:40		autrijus	but I don't feel that strongly on it, so do what you seem best :)
02:40		stevan	autrijus: okay, I will move the 03operator.t ones into there then
02:40		autrijus	k
02:40		ingy	autrijus: got your book
02:40		autrijus	ingy woot
02:40		autrijus	is HOP out yet?
02:40		ingy	don't think so
02:40		ingy	gotta eat. bbiab
02:43		autrijus	see ya.
02:44		autrijus	I have traced down the chained cmp bug and the parens bug
02:44		autrijus	doing a final regression test
02:44		stevan	autrijus: let me know when you commit,.. I will move the tests around after that
02:45		buu	Sounds exciting
02:48		autrijus	"the model of ubuntu's QA is the way to go, I think personally, but debian has a history of saying all packages are equal, and it will be a large flamewar if we change that tradition... sigh"
02:48			SyntaxNinja has joined #perl6
02:48		autrijus	hi SyntaxNinja!
02:48		SyntaxNinja	hi autrijus
02:49		SyntaxNinja	I was thinking of hacking a little bit on pugs :)
02:50		autrijus	woot!
02:50		autrijus	you came in at a correct time :)
02:50		autrijus	(well, any time is, really, but we just got all tests passed)
02:50		SyntaxNinja	is all the stuff under Rules developed by daan? I see some funny code in there, but maybe it's beyond me
02:50		SyntaxNinja	I just darcs pulled, and it looks good ;)
02:50		buu	Pssh
02:50		autrijus	it's currently all parsec code
02:50		buu	Tests are failing
02:51		autrijus	it will work for you once I commit :)
02:51		autrijus	(14 subtests UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED), 2 subtests skipped.
02:51		buu	heh
02:51		* buu	waits with baited breath
02:51		autrijus	good. I fixed 14 subtests in a run.
02:51		stevan	autrijus: I will un-TODO those tests once you commit
02:51		autrijus	cool.
02:52		crysflame	nice!
02:56		autrijus	committing.
02:57		stevan	updating
02:57		autrijus	nope. it will take a long time :)
02:57		autrijus	the network == horribly slow
02:58		autrijus	this is suppsoed to be broadband :-/
02:58		stevan	autrijus: yeah I figured that :)
02:58		autrijus	done, r332
02:58		autrijus	please unTODO the 25 subtests
02:58		autrijus	All tests successful (25 subtests UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED)
02:58		stevan	cool
02:58		stevan	will do
02:59		autrijus	stevan++
02:59		* autrijus	focuses on other releng stuff now
02:59		obra	is the project actually still accelerating?
02:59		autrijus	I think so, yeah.
03:00		autrijus	I'm not accelerating, but the project seems to be
03:00		buu	Gah
03:00		buu	What is wrong with my bloody nmake
03:01		autrijus	buu: do you have problem nmaking other cpan modules?
03:01		abstraction	windows?
03:01		buu	autrijus: I haven't tried =/
03:01		buu	I was using cygwin
03:01		autrijus	try it with $random_cpan_distro and see
03:01		autrijus	hmm. try removing cygwin from your path
03:01		autrijus	PATH even
03:01		buu	It's not in the path
03:02		autrijus	weird.
03:02		autrijus	win2k?
03:02		buu	At least, my windows path
03:02		buu	Yep
03:02		abstraction	what's mandel.p6 ?
03:02		buu	Apparently nmake can't spawn any process
03:02		autrijus	abstraction: it is something that, if you update to HEAD, works again
03:02		autrijus	and can draw a nice mandelbrot set on your screen
03:03		abstraction	it just draws dots
03:03		abstraction	wait
03:03		buu	Yay!
03:03		autrijus	abstraction: are you tracing svn.openfoundry head?
03:03		buu	All tests sucessful, 25 subtests unexpectedly suceeded)
03:03		autrijus	woot.
03:03		autrijus	buu++
03:04		buu	Heh, I didn't do anything
03:04		stevan	buu: its magic
03:04		autrijus	I think it's you who prompted me to add cygwin check into Makefile.PL
03:04		buu	What's the check do?
03:05		autrijus	it tells you to use MinGW perl or ActivePerl and dies spectacularly.
03:05		buu	Awesome.
03:05		buu	autrijus++ #advancing the cause of perl6
03:05		autrijus	:)
03:05		buu	Just wait till I compile cygwin ghc.
03:05		autrijus	I think they ran into dome ld bugs
03:05		SyntaxNinja	would work toward -Wall cleanness be welcome?
03:06		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: yes! yes definitely
03:06		autrijus	<- haskell newbie
03:06		autrijus	well, 2 months, but still newbie
03:06		SyntaxNinja	these changes tend to be annoying for conflicts, so I'll send them in small bundles
03:06		autrijus	sure thing.
03:06		buu	autrijus: With out getting in to a silly argument, I know you said you're using haskell because it has some cool features, but if you have haskell, why bother to write perl6?
03:06		autrijus	SyntaxNinja++
03:07		autrijus	buu: haskell is good for writing perl6.
03:07		autrijus	perl6 is good for writing a good deal many other things.
03:07		mugwump	"horses for courses"
03:07		buu	Ah
03:07		buu	Reasonable
03:07		abstraction	autrijus, yeah, at revision 332
03:07		SyntaxNinja	heh
03:07		autrijus	haskell may get good at those many other things with Cabal (i.e. haskell's CPAN) populated
03:07		autrijus	which I also intend to help
03:07		autrijus	but it's not there yet, really :)
03:07		abstraction	it's working now
03:08		autrijus	abstraction: nice
03:08		SyntaxNinja	I'm sure it would be a disappointing outcome if the perl6 hackers realized that haskell was too fun to give up ;)
03:08		* SyntaxNinja	high-fives autrijus for mentioning cabal
03:08		buu	haha
03:08		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: monolingual is no fun :)
03:08		buu	SyntaxNinja: It'd be pretty amusing.
03:08		autrijus	btw, SyntaxNinja is haskell world's andreas koenig. :)
03:09		buu	I have no idea who andreas koenig is =[
03:09		autrijus	buu: he did PAUSE and MakeMaker and other stuff.
03:10		buu	Cool.
03:10		SyntaxNinja	:)
03:10		buu	Haskell isn't one of those bizarre parentheses infested lispy things is it?
03:10		autrijus	nope. there is very little parens in haskell.
03:10		buu	Hurray!
03:11		autrijus	when you see too many parens, you place a dollar sign
03:11		SyntaxNinja	buu: but you can put parens all ove rthe place if you want to make pretend that haskell is lame
03:11		autrijus	which makes it looks like perl, but really is not :)
03:11		buu	SyntaxNinja: =]
03:12		buu	Woah. makemaker.org
03:13		autrijus	yeah, it's schwern's baby now
03:13			metaperl_ has joined #perl6
03:13		autrijus	we sacrifice a perl5 porter each year to the MakeMaker god so it won't get angry and bitrot
03:13		autrijus	and schwern is currently the sacrifice
03:14		buu	Ahh
03:14		buu	Sounds like a great party
03:14		mugwump	so just where did that "do ->" syntax in S09 come from, anyway?
03:14		autrijus	mugwump: when you see ->, read "sub"
03:14		autrijus	anonymous closure
03:15		autrijus	so it's just do &sub
03:15		autrijus	with a fancy syntax
03:15		buu	Horrifying.
03:15		autrijus	foreach @list -> $x { ... }
03:16		buu	Er, so what is that supposed to do?
03:16		autrijus	it's the same as perl5:
03:17		autrijus	foreach my $x (@list) { ... }
03:17		autrijus	but with a saner syntax and less parens.
03:17		buu	Oh. That's what I thought, your "when you see ->, read 'sub'" was confusing me
03:17		autrijus	it means
03:17		mugwump	ah, you haven't joined closures and subs yet, buu
03:17		autrijus	&foreach(@list, sub ($x) { ... });
03:18		buu	!
03:18		mugwump	Read synopsis 4
03:18		buu	Why did you have to tell me that, it was making sense.
03:18		autrijus	ha.
03:18		autrijus	read S04 :)
03:18		buu	Can you remind me where they are?
03:18		buu	dev.perl.org?
03:18		mugwump	t/Synopsis :)
03:19		autrijus	sure, they are in http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/
03:19		buu	Ah. Thanks.
03:19		autrijus	that too, if your brain can parse pod
03:19		autrijus	s/brain/toolset/
03:19		buu	I shall check them out and write some bizarre perl6 code to break pugs.
03:19		autrijus	buu++ # yay, welcome aboard
03:19		SyntaxNinja	darcs send isn't working for me :(
03:19		autrijus	:-/
03:19		autrijus	assuming it's not my bug
03:20		SyntaxNinja	probably not. it's locking hard
03:20		buu	I blame darcs, because it's written in some funny no good language.
03:20		autrijus	har har.
03:20		autrijus	indeed, the same no good language that writes perl6 :)
03:20		buu	Pssh
03:20		SyntaxNinja	in lexer.hs around line 422, how come you're not checking for the other types of operator associativity?
03:20			metaperl has quit IRC (Operation timed out)
03:20		buu	I'm not listening to your lies and heresy!
03:20			metaperl_ is now known as metaperl
03:21		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: I added two assocs and I had not started dealing with them
03:21		autrijus	so it's only using builtin parsec assocs for now
03:21		autrijus	the two new assocs are currently dealt with with tree rewriting
03:22		autrijus	but they really want to be dealt at the parser level I think.
03:22		SyntaxNinja	oh, the reason darcs send isn't working, I guess, is because the repo is timing out
03:22		autrijus	stevan: how's detodo doing? I think I'm only blocking on that
03:23		autrijus	yeah, confirmed, the darcs repo machine is offline for some reason
03:23		stevan	autrijus: I am almost done
03:23		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: you can just drop them to autrijus at autrijus dot org
03:23		autrijus	stevan: yay :)
03:23		stevan	autrijus: running prove t/* now to make sure
03:23		autrijus	The changelog is more than one screen long. :-/
03:24		autrijus	actually, almost more than two screens
03:24		* autrijus	tries some consolidating
03:25		stevan	autrijus: the recurse.t still skips though
03:25		stevan	should we change that?
03:25		autrijus	stevan: is it fast enough now?
03:25		autrijus	I don't mind skipping it if it's still slow.
03:26		stevan	autrijus: it gets to the 4th test on my machine (powerbook 1.5 gHz)
03:26		stevan	autrijus: make that the 5th test,.. so it only skips one
03:26		autrijus	that's what I remember
03:26		autrijus	keep it that way
03:26		stevan	autrijus: actually the test is commented out,.. the one that takes too long
03:27		autrijus	sure
03:27		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: I take it that stuff like the non-exhaustive pattern in bindEmpty (Bind.hs:67) is taken care of elsewhere in the code?
03:27		stevan	we can just remove that skip()?
03:27		autrijus	stevan: fine
03:27		stevan	doing it now
03:27		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: it is, but let me add a base case, thanks for the catch
03:28		autrijus	other   -> error "Impossible - unknown slurpy sigil in param: " ++ other
03:29		autrijus	I mean error $.
03:29		autrijus	but it should be fine now.
03:29		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: for that kinda stuff, I tend to leave out the base case, unless you're sure you'll never add new types
03:29		SyntaxNinja	because that gets rid of the wanring, which you actually want :)
03:29		SyntaxNinja	but I guess a better error message is a good thing
03:29		autrijus	yeah.
03:29		autrijus	it's okay if the base case is just error"" I think
03:30		SyntaxNinja	why equality instead of pattern matching for mergeJunk (Junk.hs:44)
03:31		autrijus	uh, I think damian will be unhappy
03:31		autrijus	it's Junc :)
03:31		autrijus	for junctions
03:31		SyntaxNinja	and you're missing patterns there too. I can add error cases for these things if you like
03:31		SyntaxNinja	sorry :(
03:31		autrijus	no prob
03:31		SyntaxNinja	<--- really bad speller
03:31		autrijus	sure, if you can refactor and add error cases and/or improve withpattern matching
03:31		autrijus	I'd be very grateful
03:32		stevan	autrijus: r333 commited
03:32		SyntaxNinja	OK. be sur eto take a look at any error catch-alls I add in case they're actually bugs :)
03:32		autrijus	how would you like to be credited in AUTHORS? :) your name, that is
03:32		stevan	all tests pass clean now
03:32		autrijus	stevan++
03:32		autrijus	stevan++
03:32		buu	heh
03:32		buu	Too bad theres no bot to record karma
03:32		stevan	autrijus: your welcome :)
03:32		crysflame	nice!
03:32		SyntaxNinja	just Isaac Jones :)
03:33		autrijus	buu: and your name/cpan id, too :)
03:33		buu	Hrm. You know, I can't get 'buu' as a cpan ID
03:33		crysflame	why not?
03:33		buu	three letters =/
03:33		buu	Minimum is 4, I think.
03:34		autrijus	JHIcpan.
03:34		buu	hrm
03:34		buu	Lemme check again
03:34		crysflame	JHI might be grandfathered
03:34		obra	I could beieve that jhi@ is historical. yeah.
03:34		crysflame	buu: ignore the rules. just apply and cc: autrijus.
03:34		buu	heh
03:34		crysflame	probably won't work
03:34		crysflame	BUT
03:34		crysflame	never doubt the power of humans evaluating rulesets flexibly
03:34		buu	Oh hey
03:35		crysflame	just don't bet on it =)
03:35		buu	Desired ID: 3-9 characters match [A-Z]
03:35		autrijus	nah, there is NBR, RDF
03:35		buu	I swear it said 4 last time =]
03:36		autrijus	oh no. group photo time.
03:36		ingy	haha
03:36		crysflame	heh
03:36		* autrijus	tries evasion technique
03:36		stevan	:)
03:37		buu	autrijus: Is there any particular reason you use the period in print << '.';  ?
03:37		autrijus	just a personal habit
03:37		autrijus	"." usually ends a mail
03:37		buu	Yeah
03:37		mugwump	I like "...", yaml style
03:37		autrijus	that works too.
03:38		crysflame	people don't say . as the entirety of a line intentionally in any case i've ever seen except ascii art
03:38		buu	I've always prefered HEREDOC_ENDS_HERE, but I may be compensating for something.
03:38		autrijus	heh
03:38		autrijus	sigh. evasion failed.
03:38		autrijus	will be back in a while.
03:38		autrijus	&
03:39		ihb	buu: haha
03:40		buu	autrijus: Nice CPAN id
03:40		ingy	I like the deprecated print <<;
03:41		buu	ingy: where?
03:41		ihb	<<'.' goes well with how formats are defined too.
03:43		ingy	buu: '<<' is terminated with a blankline
03:44		buu	ingy: Oh, right. I thought you were referring to it in use someplace.
03:45		buu	ingy: You are the author of Module::Install, yes?
03:45		stevan	autrijus: are you releasing a new version to CPAN tonight/today?
03:45		autrijus	I'm releasing it in another hour.
03:45		autrijus	after lunch, that is
03:45		autrijus	or during lunch, if we have wireless there
03:46		stevan	autrijus: cool. I am writing a perlmonks meditation, and i wanted to point people to the latest code
03:46		ingy	buu: autrijus and I coauthored originally
03:46		autrijus	wonderful. it will take a bit to propagate though.
03:46		buu	ingy: Ah. I was just going to ask A) Why does it still produce a Makefile and B) Would you prefer Module::Build?
03:46		stevan	autrijus: what will be the version number?
03:46		ingy	buu: it does both
03:46		autrijus	but you can always point people at http://autrijus.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.9.tar.gz
03:46		autrijus	6.0.9.
03:47		ingy	at the same time even
03:47		autrijus	gone &
03:47		buu	ingy: Er, it does?
03:47		autrijus	it can do both :)
03:47		ingy	buu: last time I checked :)
03:47			autrijus has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0+/20050219]")
03:48		buu	Er, so can I just copy it to Build.PL and not have to futz about with nmake?
03:48		ingy	let me check...
03:49		buu	Is there some advantage to producing a Makefile over a build.pl script?
03:49		abstraction	'$*ARGS is chomped;'
03:49		abstraction	doesn't work
03:50		ihb	stevan: about Class::StrongSingleton; is there any chance that you'd consider changing _init to something else that won't get accidentally overridden so easily? :-) consider some distant subclass that just adds an "innocent 'private' initialization help sub".
03:50		ingy	buu: depends on what the various plugins depend on
03:51		stevan	ihb: sure I would consider that
03:51		stevan	ihb: any suggestions?
03:52		buu	ingy: "The 'Build' method does not exist in the 'inc' path! Please remove the 'inc' directory and run build.pl again to load it"
03:52		ihb	stevan: init_singleton? anything more than just init. and my preference is to not use a leading underscore for anything that should be used outside of the package, but that's me.
03:53		buu	stevan: *{ "this method will never get overridden. Ever" } = sub { init! }
03:53		stevan	ihb: well you should really only use it in subclasses
03:53		stevan	buu: thats difficult to call though
03:53		stevan	*{ "this method will never get overridden. Ever" }()
03:53		stevan	yuk :P
03:54		ihb	stevan: it's easy to call. my $init = 'this method will never get overridden'; $foo->$m;
03:54		buu	stevan: =]
03:54		stevan	ihb: true.... didnt think of that
03:54		buu	(Or of course: my $init = sub { }; $init->() )
03:55		stevan	ihb: I will look at the code tonight and see what I can do
03:56		ihb	stevan: anyway, i know it's not a widely supported opinion, but i reserve _foo for things that *no one* but me should have to care about, which includes subclass authors. i also call private methods as _foo($self => @args) so the call won't accidentally "leak" out.
03:57		* buu	whinges about stupid make
03:57		stevan	ihb: I try to reserve _foo for private methods, but it's also useful for just non-public (aka protected)
03:58		ihb	btw, i don't know how on/off-topic #perl6 is, but perhaps we should move this conversation to #perl?
03:59		abstraction	the 1990's called, they want there perl5 back.
03:59		ingy	buu: what are you using M::I for?
03:59		stevan	ihb: if you want to send me an email that might be easier,.. since it is pretty specific to one module too
04:00			stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
04:00		buu	ingy: Um. Pugs?
04:01			stevan has joined #perl6
04:01		ingy	buu: do you have M::I installed?
04:02		buu	Apparently not
04:03		ingy	it has 7000 deps
04:03		buu	Great
04:03		buu	PPM has it
04:03		buu	(Why the fuck does ppm s/::/-/g ?? )
04:03		ingy	if you install it, you can delete the inc directory
04:04		ihb	stevan: nah, i'm happy with you considering it. :-)
04:04		stevan	ihb: cool
04:04		stevan	ihb: init_StrongSingleton()?
04:04		buu	"Creating new 'Build' script for 'Perl6-Pugs' version '6.0.8'
04:05		abstraction	CamelCaseInPerlSucks
04:05		buu	"Can't copy ('lib\perl6\lib\Test.pm', 'blib\lib\Perl6\lib\Test.pm'): bad file descriptor at base.pm line 2691
04:05		stevan	abstraction: toEachTheirOwn
04:05		abstraction	iGuess
04:06		ihb	stevan: anything but _init and with an indicator to the class works for me.
04:06		wolverian	abstraction: class names use that by convention :)
04:06		abstraction	wolverian, right
04:06		stevan	ihb: look for an update in a day or two
04:06		ihb	will do. thanks.
04:08		* buu	pokes ingy
04:08		wolverian	I hate ruby because: attr_reader doesn't autocreate the instance variables when I pass them to new(). perl6 must do this. :(
04:08		wolverian	now, time to sleep. cheers.
04:12		buu	Hrm
04:12		buu	Did you ever specify why haskell over perl?
04:14		SyntaxNinja	haskell is very well suited to language implementation
04:15		mdiep	syntaxninja: s/haskell/functional languages/, I think
04:16		SyntaxNinja	I get the feeling that Parsec was a factor in the choice, and parsec is, I believe, unique to Haskell
04:16		SyntaxNinja	but I won't speak for anyone else ;)
04:16		buu	What is parsec?
04:18		SyntaxNinja	buu: it's a library that makes it really elegant to write a parser in haskell that almost looks like a Yacc-type grammar, but it's implemented in the language itself
04:18		SyntaxNinja	http://www.cs.uu.nl/~daan/parsec.html
04:18		SyntaxNinja	it's a very good example of monadic combinators
04:19		* buu	cowers from the terror that is Monads
04:19		mugwump	damn you lambda programmers and your funny terms that don't have direct equivalents in other languages
04:19		SyntaxNinja	it's not that bad
04:20		buu	mugwump: I agree =]
04:22		stevan	ihb: uploading 0.02 to PAUSE right now
04:23		stevan	ihb: it was an easy change, and I left an alias to _init for backwards compatibility
04:23		ihb	uhm.
04:23		mugwump	so how do the terms "monadic container" and "polymorphism" interact, particularly if you have a class structure where everything
04:23		mugwump	... "everything is an object"
04:23		ingy	hi
04:24		SyntaxNinja	mugwump: by "class structure" do you mean 'class' in the OO sense?
04:25		ihb	stevan: if you left _init for backwards compability, what good did the change do? the risk of accidentally overriding it is still as present as before.
04:25		stevan	ihb: no, the method is now called _init_StrongSingleton (sorry about the _ , I had to leave it)
04:25		buu	ihb: You can over ride it and not break the module
04:25		ingy	are you folks getting commit mail for pugs?
04:25		mugwump	I mean that if there exists a type O which every other type in the system can be said to be... ie everything is an "object".
04:25		ihb	oh, ok, yeah. gotcha.
04:26		stevan	ihb: and then I have *_init = \&_init_StrongSingleton after it
04:26		mugwump	so, you could have a monad with homogenous members - they're all "objects", but have nothing else in common
04:26		stevan	ingy: I dont get commit mail
04:26		ingy	I would like to get commit mail
04:27		* mugwump	takes his beginner question and leaves it hanging on the wall like a Koan that doesn't need answering
04:27		stevan	maybe it's an option on openfoundry? ask autrijus
04:27		SyntaxNinja	mugwump: you can do that with IORefs, kinda.
04:27		SyntaxNinja	mugwump: monads are more than just containers, though. lists are just containers
04:28		SyntaxNinja	mugwump: but you might be able to do something interesting with it anyway; perhaps it implements the "Show" class or something
04:28		SyntaxNinja	then you could print it out, without knowing exactly what it is
04:29		mugwump	so, a monad of objects is equivalent to a general Set, in a sense?
04:29		mugwump	or list, I guess, if it has an order
04:30		SyntaxNinja	I wouldn't spend a lot of time thinking of Monads as containers, if I were you :) they can be, though.
04:37			autrijus has joined #perl6
04:37		autrijus	rehi
04:37		autrijus	please smoke-test http://autrijus.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.9.tar.gz before I upload it to CPAN?
04:39		crysflame	group picture url?
04:39		* crysflame	is on gprs / OS X atm, so no pugs/ghc :(
04:40		autrijus	crysflame: not sure when they'll post it
04:40		autrijus	also, I end up running away at the last second.
04:41		* autrijus	<- hates group photo
04:41		crysflame	ah, understood
04:41		Coke_	hurm? pugs doesn't work on OS X?
04:41		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: I sent you a few patches.  be sure to take a look at them, since I don't always understand the context, so I might be hiding bugs. I made some notes on the last one
04:42		autrijus	sure. I'll do it right after the release.
04:42		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: I'm using the clean-up to get a bit familiar with the codebase
04:42		autrijus	Coke_: GHC doesn't work on a gprs phone.
04:42		autrijus	more specifically, the "downloading GHC" part doesn't work
04:42		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: cool
04:43		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: the darcs machine admin is on holiday so it will only be back on Monday 'mafraid
04:43		autrijus	meanwhile you can use http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ or just work on your private repo :)
04:43		autrijus	your snapshot should be a ppretty stable one.
04:43		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: machine went down? sucks
04:43		autrijus	sucks a lot.
04:43		SyntaxNinja	it must have been my doing, it went down right after I ran 'darcs get' :)
04:43		autrijus	it's possible :)
04:43		autrijus	the loading was already high
04:44		buu	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
04:44		buu	$                    foo; is no longer valid code =[
04:44		* buu	weeps.
04:45		autrijus	I don't particularly miss that, to be honest, but my condolences for your loss
04:45		autrijus	ingy: ok, I'll set up commit mails.
04:46		autrijus	ingy: meanwhile pugscode.org has RSS.
04:46		Khisanth	hmm that was a very neat and tidy make test :)
04:46		buu	autrijus: Well yeah, I've never used it in my life, but I had the opportunity!
04:46		autrijus	Khisanth: 6.0.9 worked for you?
04:47		Khisanth	yup
04:47		buu	autrijus: Did you just go to .9 ?
04:47		* Khisanth	goes to play in examples
04:48		autrijus	buu: the last version was .8
04:48		autrijus	so I think it's natural to call this one .9
04:48		buu	Guess so =]
04:48		buu	autrijus: Not what I was asking =/
04:48		Khisanth	682 tests, how many does perl5 have right now?
04:48		buu	Over 50,000 I think
04:48		stevan	Khisanth: a lot more than that
04:48		Khisanth	some might call it 6.0.8b! :p
04:50		autrijus	it's up. much thanks for making it happen :)
04:51		buu	autrijus: Er, I just ran svn update, I'm still getting 6.0.8 ?
04:51		stevan	autrijus: 6.0.9 worked fine for me
04:52		buu	stevan: How did you get .9 ?
04:52		autrijus	buu: up again?
04:53		buu	revsion 336 ..
04:53		stevan	buu: http://autrijus.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.9.tar.gz
04:53		crysflame	20:52  * CPAN upload: Perl6-Pugs-6.0.9 by AUTRIJUS
04:54		* tea	running test now
04:54		Khisanth	this thing is drawing ascii art
04:54		buu	autrijus: I updated, recompiled, same version. Let me wipe it out completely
04:55		tea	say %undefined_hash  fail ? it was not catched
04:55		stevan	autrijus: tomorrow I will make sure we have tests for all of the new features listed in the changelog
04:55		autrijus	pugs -e "say %d"
04:55		autrijus	Undefined variable %d
04:55		autrijus	stevan: wunderbar.
04:56		stevan	off to sleep now, later all
04:56		autrijus	I'll do multidimensionals, apply SyntaxNinja's patches, and do more cleanups whilst you sleep
04:56		autrijus	'nite stevan, thanks!
04:56		tea	it shown to me, Fail: cannot cast into [VPair]: VError "Undefined variable %d" (Val VUndef)
04:56		autrijus	ah!
04:56		stevan	autrijus: excellent
04:56		autrijus	tea: you are correct.
04:57		autrijus	the casting triggered before definedness check.
04:57		buu	Hrm
04:57		autrijus	tea: write a test in 01basic or in hash.t?
04:57		buu	ghc --make -o pugs src/Main.hs -src; src/Help.hs:16: version.h: No such file or directory
04:57		tea	but test cases was ok , All tests successful.
04:57		autrijus	(although I'll fix it today anyway)
04:57		autrijus	you want -isrc
04:57		autrijus	not -src
04:58		buu	Er, yeah, that's what I did, typo.
04:58		autrijus	buu: try "nmake version.h"
04:59		autrijus	oh wait. that's because youre nmake is broken.
04:59		buu	Yeah =[
04:59		autrijus	ok, do this first
04:59		autrijus	perl Makefile.PL -version
04:59		autrijus	after that, ghc --make should work
04:59		buu	Yay!
05:00		autrijus	:)
05:00		buu	Ah, and that is why my version was wrong, because I wasn't recreating that header?
05:00		autrijus	yup.
05:00		autrijus	normally nmake will update it for you
05:00		buu	6.009, r336 =]
05:00		autrijus	woot
05:00		buu	Next version you'll be at "reet"
05:01		tea	autrijus: im not sure it, i found it in the shell. do u need version info of dependences, if it was depend on my environment
05:01		autrijus	tea: no, I duplicated your bug in the shell
05:01		autrijus	so it's certainly a pugs glitch
05:01		autrijus	aside from Posix calls, there's nothing that depends on environments
05:02		autrijus	both perl5 and ghc are notorious for platform independence :)
05:02		tea	ah, ok ~
05:02		buu	ghc is so platform independent it only runs on platforms ghc runs on. =[
05:03		autrijus	lol :)
05:03		autrijus	yeah, it's annoying that its cygwin support is partly broken
05:04			viirya_ has joined #perl6
05:04		crysflame	pmake++ # pure-perl make
05:05		buu	Hey, theres a thought
05:08		* buu	tries to figure out how to install pmake without having a working make
05:09		autrijus	by copying files, persumably
05:09		autrijus	announced on p6c.
05:10		viirya_	autrijus: have checked the translation?
05:11		autrijus	viirya: yup. it looks nice
05:11		viirya_	I'm doing the rest.
05:11		autrijus	I'd like to do the final proofread after the rest is done
05:11		autrijus	but the first half looks very very nice.
05:11		autrijus	viirya++
05:12		autrijus	I think we can post it to newzilla... maybe tw.comp.lang.perl
05:12		autrijus	the usual places
05:13		viirya_	hcchien said he will post it on newzilla.
05:13		autrijus	cool.
05:13		clkao	cc
05:14		autrijus	the afternoon session is about to start. I may disappear for a bit. :)
05:24		crysflame	post.. what to newzilla?
05:25		autrijus	chinese version of pugs apocryphon 1
05:25		autrijus	(newzilla is a free software tech webzine run by hcchien)
05:27		crysflame	o, cool. i should rewad the english apocryphon.
05:29		autrijus	:)
05:37		buu	Theres a p6 question on perlmonks
05:37		buu	If anyone cares =]
05:37		autrijus	url?
05:37		buu	434972
05:40		crysflame	click
05:40		crysflame	http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=434972
05:40		crysflame	example:
05:40		crysflame	(1, 5, 2, 4, 3).quicksort.say;
05:40		crysflame	Is there a reason why that last line is not written
05:40		crysflame	say quicksort (1, 5, 2, 4, 3);
05:41		autrijus	ah. if someone can quote S06 at that thread I'd be grateful
05:41		buu	Why do you say S06 instead of S6?
05:41		autrijus	because there's S12
05:41		buu	Er, so?
05:41		autrijus	and the url is called S06.html and S06.pod
05:41		autrijus	so I'm merely repeating the url :)
05:41		buu	heh
05:42		autrijus	( http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S06.html )
05:42		buu	Right
05:42		autrijus	but anyway. saying
05:42		autrijus	sub say ($x) { ... }
05:42		autrijus	is like saying
05:42		autrijus	sub say ($x:) { ... }
05:42		autrijus	which means that $x is an invocant
05:42		autrijus	$x.say
05:42		autrijus	is just a way to write
05:42		autrijus	say($x:)
05:43		autrijus	which is just say($x)
05:43		autrijus	so they are almost always interchangeable.
05:43		buu	Head.. exploding
05:43		buu	On another note, do you have a pugdoc ?
05:43		autrijus	buu: S06 explains it all :)
05:43		autrijus	no, not yet.
05:43		autrijus	just open your browser to docs/*
05:44		buu	Any plans for one?
05:44		autrijus	I think they'll eventually be coverted to kwid
05:44		autrijus	sure. ingy is the person to ask
05:44		autrijus	a perldoc that groks kwid, that is
05:44		autrijus	maybe it can be done as a Pod::Simple plugin as well.
05:45		crysflame	somene asked for a kwiki that's based on pod at one point
05:45		crysflame	i think ingy finished it
05:45		crysflame	it might have been robrt, on behalf of perl5/pod/*.pod
05:46		buu	autrijus: Oh, I was considering writing one, but I don't want to step on anyones toes or something.
05:46		autrijus	buu: just go ahead.
05:46		autrijus	there's very little toestepping around here :)
05:46		buu	heh
05:46		buu	I don't suppose a kwid parser exists..
05:47		autrijus	buu: read pugs\lib\Perl6\lib\perlkwid.kwid for spec
05:47		autrijus	it is supposed to be <=> with POD
05:47		autrijus	(where <=> reads "isomorphic")
05:47		autrijus	Kwiki parser is available on CPAN; you can adopt that
05:48		buu	Hrm
05:48		autrijus	(Kwiki.pm)
05:48		autrijus	or write your own
05:48		autrijus	in any language you prefer :)
05:48		autrijus	as long as it's not BF or Lazy K...
05:48		buu	And of course the next question, any useful docs?
05:48		* buu	writes it in BL
05:48		autrijus	buu: perlkwid.kwid
05:48		autrijus	itself is written in kwid
05:48		autrijus	so if you can parse that, you're set
05:48		autrijus	I think gugod volunteered to convert PA01 to kwid as well.
05:49		buu	perl6doc ?
05:49		autrijus	I think pugsdoc or kwidoc for now
05:49		autrijus	if you're asking for the name of the script
05:49		buu	Oh, no, sorry
05:50		buu	You know, I really hate when people just type "?" to me, I should stop doing that =/
05:50		autrijus	heh :)
05:50		autrijus	yeah, complete sentences help
05:50		buu	What I meant to ask was "This documeng is in Kwid format. To read this, use a Kwid formatter, like 'perl6doc perlkwid'"
05:50		autrijus	oh. it doesn't exist yet.
05:50		buu	Ah
05:51		buu	Wow. Perl6.
05:52		buu	And earlier I was asking, is there any actual documentation equivalent to perlvar, perlfunc, perlop, etc, in existance for perl6, or just the synopsis?
05:52		autrijus	there is synopses, apocalypses, exegesis
05:52		buu	Great!
05:52		autrijus	in descending order of normativeness
05:53		buu	Maybe I can write perlvar and make it actually parseable.
05:53		autrijus	it's all in the left side navbar of dev.perl.org/perl6/
05:53		autrijus	that will be wonderful.
05:53		autrijus	also check the two books mentioned in PA01.
05:53		buu	autrijus: Right, I see it. I was just wondering if any of the work had already been done.
05:53		autrijus	there used to be a list called perl6-documentation
05:53		autrijus	which didn't actually produce any normative documents
05:53		buu	Awesome.
05:53		autrijus	but its archive at nntp.perl.org may be worth looking
05:54		autrijus	there's many 80% complete docs
05:54		autrijus	if you can salvage those I'd be very very very grateful.
05:54		buu	Hey, theres a thought.
05:55		autrijus	do subscribe p6c and post yoru findings there :)
05:56		autrijus	it has a beter chance of being read on p6c.
05:56		buu	p6c is perl6-compiler, yes?
05:56		autrijus	yeah.
05:56		buu	Well, if I find anything useful and/or actually accomplish something
05:56		autrijus	buu++ # thanks in advance
05:56		buu	=[
05:57		buu	So does kwid have any official standing?
05:58		autrijus	suppose that it's only been specified less than a day ago
05:58		autrijus	I'd say no :)
05:58		buu	haha
05:58		autrijus	but failing better alternatives, I think I'll adopt it for pugs.
05:58		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: so is Rule basically a fork of parsec?
05:58		buu	Sounds reasonble.
05:59		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: yup. now 6.0.9 is out I plan to redo the monad so it's put inside the Eval monad
05:59		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: which will land tomorrow with luck
05:59		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: problem with Parsec is that it doesn't have a ParsecT
05:59		autrijus	which is why I forked it to work on it in the first place
05:59		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: can you send your changes upstream?
06:00		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: of course yse
06:00		autrijus	once it's anything near coherent I'll sned upstream.
06:00		autrijus	I think a ParsecT will benefit many.
06:00		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: because there are changes I'd like to make in there, to clean stuff up, but they really blong upstream
06:00		autrijus	(I hope, anyway.)
06:00		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: sure, I'll push them for you too
06:00		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: it is my hope that pugs can result in many toolchain contributions and cleanups to haskell libraries
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06:01		autrijus	(eg. the test coverage tool discussed here a while ago)
06:01		autrijus	hi coaster.
06:01		coaster	hi
06:02		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: cool
06:02		autrijus	coaster: first time here? :)
06:02		coaster	yes
06:02		autrijus	nice. how did you find out this place?
06:03		coaster	saw the post about pugs on perl monks
06:03		autrijus	(btw, Pugs 6.0.9 has been released, if you'd like to try it put.)
06:03		autrijus	s/put/out/
06:03		autrijus	ahh. cool
06:03		autrijus	so, got some time to help out writing tests and/or examples and/or libraries? :)
06:03		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: is "XXX" your version of "fixme"?
06:03		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: yeah.
06:04		shapr	oh hey! I have a suggestion for that.
06:04		autrijus	shapr: mm?
06:04		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: I ignored warnings that were in close proximity to XXX
06:04		coaster	i suppose :D
06:04		autrijus	coaster: woot! :)
06:04		shapr	I asked about XXX on the Pragmatic Programmers list and a smart guy in Berkely said that he uses XX XXX XXXX ...
06:04		autrijus	right, I read that too
06:04		SyntaxNinja	shapr: why?
06:04		autrijus	it's eerie
06:04		shapr	http://www.scannedinavian.com/2005-02-02.html
06:05		shapr	minor/normal/severe issues.
06:05		SyntaxNinja	heh
06:05		shapr	autrijus: oh you read that already?
06:05		SyntaxNinja	you could use FIXXXXX also ;)
06:05		autrijus	coaster: so, try getting pugs built on your system, and play around a bit; if you run into anything bizzare/limiting/ugly, scream here or on perl6-compiler :)
06:05		shapr	autrijus: I'm not used to dealing with other people who restlessly absorb info.
06:06		coaster	yeah i got it built, messing around with it now
06:06		* shapr	boings happily
06:06		autrijus	shapr: seems we're built with similar materials :)
06:06		shapr	truly
06:06		shapr	Once again, I very much hope we can end up in the same physical space for a few days. I think I would enjoy that much.
06:06		autrijus	I think euroscon
06:06		autrijus	or icfp
06:06		shapr	yeah
06:06		autrijus	are both likely venues.
06:06		SyntaxNinja	autrijus: so should I go ahead and clean up warnings in Rule also?
06:07		autrijus	SyntaxNinja: yes, yes definitely.
06:07		SyntaxNinja	OK. I'm just worried about the conflict situation w/ upstream, but they're annoying, so I'll go ahead
06:07		autrijus	that will make my time in MonadT'ing it much more enjoyable
06:07		SyntaxNinja	they meaning the warnings
06:07		autrijus	and more coherent when I push them upstream
06:09		autrijus	ok, I need to run now.
06:09		autrijus	be back in a couple hours.
06:09		autrijus	see you! &
06:09		SyntaxNinja	Pos is weird. I wonder why he doesn't use field accessors
06:10		shapr	I know of several people who've got Parsec extensions/additions/changes, including me.
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06:12		SyntaxNinja	is upstream slow to accept them?
06:12		SyntaxNinja	post to libraries@ :)
06:14		shapr	Slow to accept them is an understatement :-) I sent a bunch of stuff to Daan and he said "yeah, this is cool"
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06:24		SyntaxNinja	that sucks. post them to libraries@!
06:25		SyntaxNinja	someone will handle it
06:44		crysflame	.
06:44		shapr	,
06:44		shapr	really big semicolon!
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08:09		buu	Hrm
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08:17		buu	The trolls have attacked!
08:18		shapr	Quick! under the bridge!
08:21		buu	But that's where the trolls live!
08:21		shapr	oh, never mind then. Burn the bridges behind us!
08:21		buu	Good idea
08:22		buu	But I lack an inflammable substance!
08:23		rgs	flamewar against trolls ?
08:24		buu	Mildly
08:24		buu	There was only one.
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09:30		crysflame	trolls? o no!
09:31		crysflame	~/win 3
09:32		buu	... What?
09:33		scw	Hello! Where are duplicated '\\n   List      pre     values  (Hash)\' when defining initSyms in Prim.hs
09:33		scw	Is there any reason?
09:34		scw	Besides, function 'values' can also apply to junction, but it seams it anly accept Hash now :)
09:34		scw	s/anly/only/
09:39		buu	Hrm
09:40		buu	I want an aujitrus so I can bitch
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09:50		buu	Anyone understand kwid here?
09:50		buu	.list
09:50		buu	-foo
09:50		buu	bar
09:51		buu	-baz
09:51		buu	.list.
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10:38		theorbtwo	Somebody should make the chan's topic mention that it's logged.
10:38		theorbtwo	(I don't care, but I can imagine other people caring.)
10:38		shapr	can you change the topic?
10:38		crysflame	we're logged now?
10:38		* crysflame	shrugs
10:39			shapr changes topic to: Run Perl6 Now! | pugscode.org (see 'Overview' and 'Journal') | pugs.kwiki.org | test
10:39		shapr	theorbtwo: go forth and add that info to the topic.
10:39		scw	crysflame: definitely http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
10:40			crysflame changes topic to: Run Perl6 Now! | pugscode.org ('Overview', 'Journal') | pugs.kwiki.org | now with logging: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
10:40		crysflame	if it's undesirable to log it, that'll help identify that a situation exists
10:40		crysflame	if it's desirable, now we know
10:41		crysflame	someone should shorten that url though :)
10:44			theorbtwo changes topic to: Run Perl6 Now! | pugscode.org ('Overview', 'Journal') | pugs.kwiki.org | now with logging: http://xrl.us/e98m
10:45		shapr	Can't we get someone with a top-level domain to do *really* short urls?
10:45		shapr	http://go/here
10:46		crysflame	i know someone with a tld
10:46		shapr	Which one?
10:46		crysflame	one of the cc codes
10:47		crysflame	http://zs/x/blah
10:47		crysflame	zs is made up, for example purposes
10:48		shapr	I want a .aq domain.
10:50		* theorbtwo	hears it's possible to get your passport stamped in Antartica (even though it isn't a country).
10:50		shapr	Who owns Aq anyway?
10:50		shapr	Can I just setup shop there with no rules?
10:51		shapr	Would be a nice way to escape a bunch of stupid copyright and patent laws.
10:51		theorbtwo	Most of the world considers it under the direct juristiction of the UN, IIRC.  (Except France, who considers part of it under their direct juristiction.)
10:55		theorbtwo	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G[…]ent_of_Antarctica
10:55		rgs	only the part known as "terre adélie"
10:55		theorbtwo	(In other words, I'm completely wrong.)
10:57		crysflame	oh, neat. it's illegal for those under American jurisdiction in America to pollute Antarctica in any way
10:57		crysflame	which includes discharge of pollutants
10:57		crysflame	which means oil mining is ilegal
11:00		theorbtwo	...and Article 8 of the Antarctic Treaty stipulates that US law holds for US citizens in Antarctica.
11:02		crysflame	otherwise the mafia would go nuts
11:02		theorbtwo	Oh, and the Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty prohibits oil mining as well, for the citizens of 27 countries (including china, the US, and most of the EU).
11:02		crysflame	woot!
11:06		* rgs	wants a .moon
11:06		shapr	I've wondered about interplanetary tcp/ip
11:07		theorbtwo	IIRC, there's an RFC on it, and TCP/IP over satalite isn't that uncommon.
11:07		theorbtwo	For that matter, TCP/IP over moon bounce probably isn't /terribly/ uncommon.
11:11		theorbtwo	Ah, RFC 3271 mentions that the current NASA Mars activities use interplanetary IP.
11:14		theorbtwo	Heh, 2775: "It should also be noted that since the speed of light is not set by an IETF standard..."
11:15		* crysflame	blinks
11:17		theorbtwo	Too far off-topic?
11:19		* shapr	snickers
11:19		shapr	that's cute.
11:25		theorbtwo	.oO(TCP/IP over philotic links?)
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13:35		YJ	hi
13:36		YJ	is there anyone here can give me a little help?
13:36		theorbtwo	Can try.
13:36		YJ	thx
13:36		YJ	i can't generate html with perl
13:37		integral	YJ: with pugs?
13:37		YJ	i tryed googling the question
13:37		integral	I don't suppose #perl6 does perl5 questions...
13:37		theorbtwo	You don't want this channel, then.  This is for perl6; you're using perl5.
13:37		YJ	ehm.. pugs?
13:37		theorbtwo	Try #perl.
13:37		YJ	oh
13:37		YJ	ok
13:37		YJ	bye than
13:37		YJ	thx
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14:01		Steve_p	Hmmm...`say "<html><body><h1>Welcome to pugs</h1></body></html>"`
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14:19		autrijus	rehi!
14:20		rgs	hi autrijus
14:21		autrijus	yo. got more time for pugs? :)
14:21		rgs	no. Perl 5 and real work keep me busy
14:21		rgs	(and haskell tutorials)
14:22		autrijus	ycheng: 0100 is no longer 64 in perl6.
14:22		autrijus	ycheng: it is either a warning, an error, or just 100.
14:22		clkao	autrijus!
14:22		autrijus	clkao!
14:22		clkao	i need you to fix get_prompt on win32
14:22		autrijus	just had some really good beijing ducks
14:22		clkao	it blocks 0.30
14:22		autrijus	ok, fixing now
14:23		clkao	oh well, hack, you are in beijing.
14:23		autrijus	meanwhile do you have svn-1.1.x?
14:23		autrijus	1.1.3 built to win32?
14:23		clkao	as ?
14:23		clkao	i don't have win32
14:23		autrijus	as something that can replace 1.1.0 in win32 bindists?
14:23		clkao	svn on win32
14:23		clkao	i don't know, the one branko built can't be used?
14:23		autrijus	I'll try...
14:23		autrijus	wagner is down
14:23		autrijus	my notes are gone
14:24		autrijus	hmm it responds to ping
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14:25		autrijus	clkao: so what was broken again? just the resolution part?
14:25		clkao	move to #svk
14:31		autrijus	running regression
14:31		autrijus	11ceckout
14:31		autrijus	#     $expected->[0] = 'Syncing //V-3.1/A/Q(/V-3.1/A/Q) in C:\Program Files\svk\
14:31		autrijus	fix it?
14:31		autrijus	#          $got->[0] = 'Syncing //V-3.1/A/Q(/V-3.1/A/Q) in C:\Program Files\svk\
14:32		autrijus	site\t\checkout\checkout\0 to 6.'
14:32		autrijus	a forgotten __
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14:46		autrijus	syntaxninja not here. hmm
14:46		autrijus	darcs-- # applying patch with missing context ~= impossible
14:46		autrijus	eats 99% cpu for half an hour and did nothing
14:46		autrijus	sigh.
14:49		clkao	you want svk
14:50		autrijus	I wish svk doesn't take ~1hr to sync all revisions though :)
14:50		clkao	11checkout fixed
14:50		autrijus	in particular I want the [h]ead option to work.
14:50		clkao	i works
14:50		clkao	it works
14:50		clkao	it's been fixed long ago
14:50		autrijus	oh. right. it works.
14:50		autrijus	I keep stuck in the past. sorry
14:51		autrijus	got burned too many times, etc.
14:51		ycheng	autrijus: got it.
14:51		autrijus	ycheng: so, will you kindly revert your commit, or (preferably) change it to emit a fatal error?
14:51		ycheng	autrijus: I am puting it back.
14:51		autrijus	like, returning a VError.
14:51		autrijus	I think I want it be an error.
14:52		autrijus	which is what lwall said, too
14:52		ycheng	I'll try to revert it first.
14:52		ycheng	I do that for I want to write "chmod".
14:52		autrijus	ycheng: nono, I think your infrastructure is fine
14:52		autrijus	just change it to emit VError
14:52		autrijus	which is what we want
14:53		ycheng	autrijus: make 0100 a error ?
14:53		autrijus	reboot, bbiab. &
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14:53		theorbtwo	I think thta's what he meant, ycheng.
14:53		theorbtwo	that's
14:54		ycheng	theorbtwo: see.
14:54		ycheng	well, it will take me some time to study how to return a VError :)
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15:00		stevan	autrijus: I responded to http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=434972
15:00		stevan	I hope I got it right :P
15:03		* Steve_p	takes a peek
15:03		theorbtwo	Looks good to me, thilo.
15:03		theorbtwo	Er, stevan.
15:05		Steve_p	Actually, the "hello world".foo will feel very familiar to ruby programmers
15:06		Steve_p	It actually can be also done in Java, but I've seen it much more in Ruby
15:08		stevan	Steve_p: I understand the autoboxing, but foo() is not a method of the String class, so I think that is where the confusion is
15:08		Steve_p	If you mixin, it will be :)
15:08		stevan	theorbtwo: thanks
15:08		stevan	Steve_p: I prefer to view it as RPN perl
15:08		stevan	"hello world" .foo
15:08		integral	isn't it just that method calls now additionally look in other namespaces other than the class for (multi)methods?
15:09		integral	(like C++ Koenig lookup I suppose)
15:09		stevan	integral: they seem to have called it invocant parameters in S06
15:09		Steve_p	Also, the scriptable programming paradigm in Perl 6 seems to allow it
15:09		stevan	and not associated it with object
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15:09		integral	*nod* it's just unifying the CLOS generic method type syntax of method(obj, args), with obj->method(args)
15:10		stevan	part of me likes it, the other part is not so sure
15:10		stevan	but hey,.. this is all new stuff,.. so it will take some time
15:11		Steve_p	I'm guessing it could get very messy if you aren't careful, but that can be dealt with
15:11		stevan	Steve_p.do.mean.whatever
15:11		stevan	or rather Steve_p.mean.you.do.whatever
15:12		stevan	It has the same smell as method chaining
15:12		stevan	which I like sometimes, and don't like other times
15:12		theorbtwo	It's one of those "there's nobody forcing you to use it" things.
15:13		stevan	theorbtwo: exactly
15:13		stevan	TMTIWTDO
15:13		stevan	bah ,... TIMTOWTDI
15:13		* stevan	needs more coffee
15:16		Steve_p	Mmm...method chaining
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15:16		* Steve_p	hugs Perl 6
15:20		nnunley	HRm... is this a valid test for junction equivalance?  ok all(4|5|6 + 3) == one(7|8|9)
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15:22		nnunley	Hrm.  Minor syntax error... all((4|5|6) + 3) == one(7|8|9)
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15:25		theorbtwo	Hm.  We spew errors pretty badly when compiling under -Wall.
15:27		Steve_p	ghc -Wall?
15:27		theorbtwo	Yeah.
15:30		scw	nnunley: Seems correct? I think like this:
15:30		scw	nnunley: all((4|5|6) + 3) make all(any(7, 8, 9)) and one(7|8|9) becomes one(any(7, 8, 9)), then ALL the any(7, 8, 9) match ONE of the any(7, 8, 9)
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15:31		nnunley	scw: That was my thought.
15:31		scw	(any(7, 8, 9) is a single element..)
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15:31		nnunley	scw: Cool.  The middle element is an error case right now in pugs.
15:32		nnunley	scw: It's validating one of the synopsis assertions.
15:37		scw	nnunley: Er, I didn't follow. What do you mean?
15:37		nnunley	Try this:  ok all((4|5|6) + 3) == one(7|8|9), "all elements in junction are incremented";
15:37		nnunley	Just writing test cases to follow S03
15:38		nnunley	it will pass 2 out of 3 times.
15:39		nnunley	I'm just trying to make sure that my test is not flawed.
15:43		scw	Quite strange.. It won't pass if I use Test module, but print correct string if not.
15:45		nnunley	I guess it's a side effect of Test.
15:46		nnunley	Committed it for public examination.
15:49		scw	I think the problem comes from parameter.
15:49		scw	I wrote a function:  sub test($cond){ say 'true' if $cond; say 'false' if !$cond; }
15:50		scw	Then, test(0|1) prints both
15:51		* nnunley	nods.
15:52		nnunley	It's currently hitting 3 of the 9 branches.
15:53		nnunley	So I would expect either 9 evaluations(3 pass, 6 fail), or 3 evaluations (all pass).
15:55		scw	Oh! I totally forgot when junction is evaluated branches are taken!
15:56		* nnunley	nods.
15:56		nnunley	So passing 2 of 3 is odd.
15:58		scw	But why only 3 branches?
15:58		nnunley	Right.
15:58		nnunley	Good question.
15:59		scw	Or, why are there 3 branches. By interactive mode, all((4|5|6) + 3) == one(7|8|9) has value ((((bool::false | bool::true))))
15:59		nnunley	Though I believe the == colapses the state.
16:01		scw	Is there any discussion of equality of qunction in Synopses?
16:01		* crysflame	smiles
16:01		crysflame	the first bug i found in pugs was with junctions. also 2nd, 3rd.
16:02		nnunley	At least we're fixing them before they become actual threads.
16:03		crysflame	all(4|5|6) + 3) results in (7|8|9)
16:03		* nnunley	nods.
16:03		nnunley	WHich is in S03.
16:03		crysflame	all(7|8|9) == one(7|8|9) is a 3x3 matrix of results
16:03		crysflame	(7|8|9) == 7
16:03		crysflame	(7|8|9) == 8
16:03		crysflame	(7|8|9) == 9
16:03		nnunley	and only the diagnal is true.
16:03		crysflame	but since it's all(7|8|9), all three are true
16:03		crysflame	so it should collapse to a 3x1
16:04		crysflame	er, 1x3
16:04		crysflame	and all three are true, so it should collapse down to true
16:04		* nnunley	nods.
16:06		crysflame	all(7 or 8 or 9) == one (7|8|9)
16:06		crysflame	oh
16:06		crysflame	it wouldn't collapse down to true
16:06		crysflame	er..
16:06		* crysflame	twitches
16:06		crysflame	well, if there's a bug in comparing all(x..z) == one(x|y|z) then i could see why, at least
16:07		crysflame	all(one(x|y)) == all(x|y)?
16:07		crysflame	if not, then my logic is wrong.
16:07		* crysflame	&
16:07		PerlJam	your logic sure sounds wrong.
16:08		PerlJam	all(7,8,9) can not == one(7,8,9)
16:08		nnunley	I thought I was stating:  for all a in list a, there exists b in list a that is equivalent.
16:09		nnunley	s/list/junction/
16:12		nnunley	Changing the signature of Test::ok from ($cond, ...) to (Bool $cond,...) does cause it to collapse according to my expectation.
16:12		Juerd	PerlJam: Isn't that: all(7 == one(7,8,9), 8 == one(7,8,9), 9 == one(7,8,9)) and thus true?
16:14		PerlJam	Juerd: hold on, let me check the synopsis on the order of evaluation.
16:15		nnunley	I think that might still just be living in the chatter on p6l.
16:15		Juerd	IIRC, right expands first
16:15		nnunley	That's what I remember reading, too.
16:16		ycheng	autrijus[tw]: I make 01 error ("010 is not octal in perl6 anymore, use 0o10")
16:16		crysflame	i'm thinking in pure math, not in precedence of collapse, fwiw.
16:17		ycheng	autrijus[tw]: should I make 090 error, too. (9 is not 0-7)
16:17		theorbtwo	Having one work and not the other is a gross violation of least surprise.
16:18		PerlJam	Juerd: oh, you're indeed correct.
16:18		PerlJam	damn junctions to the hell of quantum confusion  ;)
16:18		* nnunley	grins.
16:18		crysflame	aw, they're not confusing
16:18		nnunley	Just set theory.
16:18		crysflame	just very meticulous in proving shortcuts wrong
16:18		crysflame	repeatedly
16:18		* crysflame	never trusts anything with set math yet
16:19		PerlJam	nnunley: If it's just set theory why don't we call them "sets" instead of "junctions"?
16:19		crysflame	a list is a set
16:19		crysflame	a junction is not a list
16:19		theorbtwo	Because that'd be even more confusing for people who think a set is like a hash, but without the values.
16:19		crysflame	{3,4,5} = set
16:19		crysflame	{3|4|5} = a set that collapses when studied
16:20		* crysflame	shrugs
16:20		crysflame	my @list : all = (3,4,5); # maybe
16:21		Juerd	17:21 < crysflame> a list is a set
16:21		Juerd	Lists have order, sets do not
16:21		crysflame	ah, neat.
16:21		nnunley	PerlJam: Yeap.  set has become overloaded in meaning in the programming world.
16:21		crysflame	i can't touch the semantic argument
16:21		crysflame	but set math feels a lot more sane to me than it should, apparently
16:21		crysflame	just can't trust any of it
16:23		theorbtwo	Also, lists can contain duplicates, sets cannot.
16:26		theorbtwo	Set math is rather insane, actually.  It's the bit where it's most obvious that it's insane, at least.
16:27		theorbtwo	Does the set that contains all sets that do not contain themselves contain itself?
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16:33		scw	Set theorem prevent such paradox..
16:35		integral	'naïve set theory', 'axiomatic set theory' and friends...
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17:17		autrijus	rehi. :)
17:17		autrijus	(web-based backlog)++
17:18		autrijus	theorbtwo: syntaxninja has lots of patches that cleans -Wall.
17:18		clkao	autrijus: while i can get a hold of you, can you test zh filenames / commitlog on win32 with svk?
17:19		autrijus	ok, testing
17:20			autrijus[tw] has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds)
17:28		autrijus	syntaxninja++
17:28		autrijus	-Wall patch landing in a few mins.
17:30		crysflame	hi
17:30		autrijus	hey crysflame
17:31		ingy	hola
17:31		autrijus	yo ingy san
17:32		ingy	I started http://pugs.kwiki.org/?KwidSynopsis
17:32		autrijus	rocks.
17:33		rgs	hi ingy
17:33		ingy	hi rgs
17:33		ingy	I'm already wanting the new features from fleshing out Kwid in Kwiki
17:36		autrijus	new features?
17:36		rgs	(... sometimes you expect purl to say something.)
17:36		autrijus	:)
17:36		ingy	heh
17:37		ingy	things like `$foo`
17:37		ingy	and also {*foo*} meaning *foo*
17:38		ingy	but the backticks are like crack
17:38		autrijus	yup
17:38		autrijus	how do you say raw `$foo`?
17:39		ingy	{ `$foo` }
17:39		autrijus	and raw {} ?
17:39		ingy	or \`$foo`
17:39		ingy	\{}
17:39		autrijus	ah. totally makes sense.
17:40		ingy	code for `$foo` is {``$foo``} btw
17:41		ingy	'{`' is start tag and '`}' is end tag
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17:41		ingy	so anything but '`}' goes inside
17:41		autrijus	okay.
17:41		autrijus	that is very regular.
17:42		autrijus	I think it will make an excellent example in learning parsec :)
17:42		ingy	and '`}' is {`\`}`}
17:42		autrijus	let me commit a simple ruleKwidBlock for you...
17:42		autrijus	and you can take over
17:42		ingy	please!!
17:43		autrijus	that way we can support the crack inline literals
17:43		autrijus	let me find them in synopses...
17:43		autrijus	riiight.
17:44		autrijus	%=POD{'DATA'}
17:44		autrijus	all PODs inside a namespace can be accessed individually
17:44		autrijus	as hash, or as array.
17:44		autrijus	or as scalar.
17:44		ingy	nice
17:44		autrijus	all comments can be read as @=COMMENT.
17:45		autrijus	so Smart::Comment is suddenly trivial.
17:46		ingy	autrijus: where will the Kwid parsec rules go?
17:46		autrijus	I think Parser/Kwid.hs
17:46		autrijus	I think.
17:46		theorbtwo	Hm, sigil~'='~name is very confusing.
17:46		autrijus	makes sense to you?
17:46		autrijus	theorbtwo: where's that?
17:46		ingy	autrijus: sounds fine
17:46		autrijus	oh, you mean secondary crack sigils
17:47		theorbtwo	@=COMMENT.
17:47		theorbtwo	Secondary sigils aren't bad in general, but = as a secondary sigil is.
17:47		autrijus	I agree. sadly I think it makes the most sense.
17:47		autrijus	maybe @|COMMENT
17:47		autrijus	%|POD{'DATA'}
17:48		theorbtwo	Looks better.
17:48		autrijus	feel free to raise on p6l. for now I'll do the spec :)
17:48		theorbtwo	OTOH, that might be an artifact of the variable-width font I'm viewing this with.
17:50		theorbtwo	I don't care anywhere near enough to brave the uggage of p6l.
17:50		autrijus	p6l is very tame nowadays :)
17:51		theorbtwo	Also, I feel rather bad that a couple times I've made in-passing comments, and Larry has decided to change the world just after.
17:51		autrijus	that doesn't sound too bad...
17:52		theorbtwo	Yeah, and one of those was really unrelated, I suspect.
17:53			theorbtwo changes topic to: Run Perl6 Now! | pugscode.org ('Overview', 'Journal') | pugs.kwiki.org | chan now logged: http://xrl.us/e98m
17:54		PerlJam	heh ... for some reason my mind parsed that as "Perl6!  Run now!"  (as in "run away")
17:54		ihb	haha
17:54		theorbtwo	Hed fur de hills, sonny!  De perl6 is commin'!
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18:01		autrijus	hi luqui!
18:01		luqui	hi autrijus
18:01		* luqui	recovers from his cold and reluctantly returns to the working world
18:01		luqui	which probably means less pugs work...
18:02		autrijus	luqui: I talked steve fink into writing  http://0xdeadbeef.net/wiki/wik[…]FinkBlog/CodeTour
18:03			pbuetow has joined #perl6
18:03		luqui	of P6C in parrot/languages?
18:03		luqui	no
18:03		luqui	of regex
18:03		theorbtwo	Does anybody here mind being mentioned in Perl6Irc on the kwiki?
18:04		theorbtwo	(I'm looking at you, luqui.)
18:04		luqui	yes I mind.  You may not use my name without express written consent!
18:04		luqui	:-p
18:04		luqui	go ahead (there's your written consent)
18:05		luqui	When I was writing that type-collated hash example on p6l, I realized that Perl 6's sub declaration syntax has some major flaws
18:06		luqui	You shouldn't have to know all that stuff about a method to wrap it
18:06		autrijus	although you can introspect
18:06		autrijus	with .arity and .param, no?
18:07		luqui	But that's a lot of black magic for a common operation
18:07		autrijus	that is true.
18:07		luqui	Haskell has had a profound effect on my for what it means to be concise
18:07		autrijus	also in quicksort, btw
18:07		PerlJam	surely some of it is "inheritable"?
18:07		autrijus	(1,2,3,4).say
18:07		autrijus	surely *@_ can't be invocant?
18:07		autrijus	so that is downright illegal?
18:07		luqui	The invocant idea is breaking down
18:08		autrijus	as is $anything.say
18:08		autrijus	luqui: can you elaborate? I have that feeling
18:08		autrijus	but can't quite say clearly
18:08		luqui	For instance, $anything.say seems reasonable, and in fact you'd like to be able to override say on yourself
18:08		luqui	but if sub say (*@_), then you can't
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18:09		luqui	but if it's sub say ($a1, $a2, $a3, ...), then you can
18:09		luqui	(multi, that is)
18:09		theorbtwo	Overriding stringification would seem to make more sense in most cases, but for some.
18:09		luqui	ceratinly, but this is just an example
18:09		theorbtwo	Well, what's wrong with having *@_ be the invocant?
18:09		autrijus	problem is not even
18:10		autrijus	multi sub say (*@_) {}
18:10		autrijus	can be used in an invocant fashion
18:10		autrijus	theorbtwo: there's nothing wrong. pugs does that.
18:10		autrijus	it's just, uhm, against the spec.
18:10		theorbtwo	Oh.
18:10		* theorbtwo	steps backwards when volunteers to talk to p6l are asked for.
18:10		luqui	I'm just thinking that the concrete idea of "invocant" isn't buying us anything
18:10		autrijus	pugs currently tries to match invocantless multisubs when all invocantful subs did not match.
18:11		autrijus	which is my intuition
18:11		autrijus	but after further reading of Syns it seems that it's against the spec.
18:11		theorbtwo	Perhaps the case where there is one invocant, and it's the first scalar parameter, is just an optimization of the general case of multimethods?
18:11		luqui	the spec says that all your multis have to have the same number of invocants
18:11		luqui	forget quicksort, then
18:11		theorbtwo	That's how I always interpreted it, but I've never done a real detail reading.
18:12		autrijus	yeah. quicksort seems like a bad thing to forget.
18:12		PerlJam	luqui: multi sub say ($_) { ... }  multi sub say (*@_) { ... }   # there ya go!  Same number of invocants :-)
18:12		autrijus	and the fact that lwall did not catch the bug when I presented it on p6l (asking for slurpy ())
18:12		autrijus	PerlJam: nope. the first one has one
18:12		autrijus	the second one as none.
18:13		autrijus	slurpy are never invocants.
18:13		luqui	So I'm trying to re-work the dispatch mechanism as an arglist pattern matcher
18:13		autrijus	the zones are: invocants, positionals, nameds, slurpy.
18:13		luqui	Doing some wicked cool stuff with junctions
18:13		PerlJam	oh right, then the second one is multi sub say ([$_,*@_]) { ... }    #  oops!
18:13		PerlJam	:-)
18:13		autrijus	at least since dec 04.
18:13		luqui	I'll blog on it later today
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18:14		autrijus	mm.
18:14		autrijus	maybe add your blog to planetsix?
18:14		autrijus	http://www.luqui.org/blog/ right?
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18:14		luqui	yeah
18:15		PerlJam	luqui: do you attend the cabal conference call each week?
18:15		luqui	yeah
18:15		PerlJam	This sounds like a good topic for this week's call.
18:15		luqui	sometimes...
18:16		luqui	I'll probably mention it and have an email waiting to go out on it
18:16		luqui	it's hard to talk about code itself
18:16		luqui	better to write about it
18:18		theorbtwo	I like the exponential units thing, BTW.
18:18		luqui	that was just wacky, I had to say something
18:18		luqui	thanks
18:21		ingy	hi luqui
18:21		luqui	hi ingy
18:21		ingy	I just realized you were luqui
18:22		luqui	lol, I think I know what you mean
18:22		ingy	-)
18:24		theorbtwo	Hmm, how do you write while (<>) {...} this week?  And is it implemented in pugs?
18:24		luqui	for =$*IN {...}
18:25		luqui	Was there a short form for that?
18:25		luqui	I don't remember
18:25		PerlJam	I thought that bare = or something was the <> equiv
18:25		PerlJam	for = {...}
18:25		luqui	I seem to remember something like that
18:26		autrijus	where is unary = in synopses?
18:26		luqui	on p6l
18:26		autrijus	in syns it's "for *$*IN { }"
18:26		luqui	It's pretty recent
18:26		autrijus	or "for *$FH"
18:26		autrijus	right.
18:26		autrijus	so is * invalid now?
18:26		luqui	I don't even know if Larry has decided to go with unary = as the <> equiv
18:27		PerlJam	autrijus: I get the impression that that's some syntax that's up-for-grabs at the moment.
18:27		luqui	but he pondered it pretty seriously
18:27		luqui	yeah, let's just hold off
18:27		PerlJam	or maybe it was for =<> {...}
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18:27		theorbtwo	http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S04.html under "The for statement"
18:27		luqui	PerlJam: that is much more strongly reminiscent
18:28		PerlJam	yeah, that sounds righter.
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18:28		luqui	yep, =<> indeed
18:28		PerlJam	Though the <> have radically changed meaning :-)
18:28		luqui	not since larry pondered that
18:29		PerlJam	I meant from perl5
18:29		luqui	actually I think the refactor was in the same message, or the same week at least
18:29		luqui	oh
18:29		luqui	yeah, it's like ={''}
18:29		* luqui	wonders if that works
18:30		* luqui	wonders if you can open/iterate in one nice call:
18:30		PerlJam	I'd add that to pugs if I were adding  (unfortunately, I haven't had enough time to learn as much as I'd like)
18:30		luqui	for =<file.foo> {...}
18:30		clkao	do we have a summary of implementation status of all primitives?
18:30		PerlJam	luqui: And then from the domino effect we get people asking if you can do   for =<*.foo *.bar> {...}
18:31		autrijus	clkao: builtin.pod
18:31		autrijus	src/builtins.pod
18:31		luqui	and we'd say no, you do:  for ={glob '*.foo', glob '*.bar'} {...}
18:31		PerlJam	btw, builtins.pod was copied from the perl6 repos?  Why not just use svn:externals?
18:32		autrijus	PerlJam: because we're using svk :)
18:32		autrijus	or at least, I am.
18:32		autrijus	and svk:merged is more handy than svn:externals to do mutual syncs.
18:32		PerlJam	I'll take your word for it :-)
18:33		autrijus	dev.perl.org's pugs and openfoundry pugs is synced bothways :)
18:33		* PerlJam	hasn't really looked at svk beyond the "carry whole repos around" idea
18:33		autrijus	was one-way, but thanks to luqui, I verified that two-way is working.
18:33		autrijus	even with conflict resolution ;)
18:33		luqui	cool
18:35		luqui	ack, my keyboard appears to be russian
18:35		luqui	except here in putty
18:36		autrijus	new keyboard or new os?
18:36		luqui	using a computer at school
18:36		luqui	something happened
18:37		theorbtwo	.oO(In soviet russia, keyboards type you!)
18:37		* luqui	reads about the more theoretical aspect of monads so he can try to integrate them with his new model
18:37		luqui	haha
18:41		autrijus	:)
18:41		autrijus	luqui: so, lwall threatened to learn haskell. try to inflict it on him during confcall? :)
18:41		autrijus	I think it will help the "regularity" phase of perl6 design :)
18:41		luqui	definitely
18:42		luqui	!!
18:42		luqui	I think my new proposals will go over much better after he learns haskell, too
18:42		metaperl6	I have finished with yaht (pretty much) and have decided to understand Junc.hs and want to write up a pod document on what I learn. ~dist/docs is the place. what should I name the file
18:42		metaperl6	I presume you dont want lines and lines of comments within the Haskell code. Which I'm sure reads cleanly for an experiened haskeller
18:42		luqui	(one of the fundamental assumptions in my object model is obvious in haskell)
18:43		autrijus	metaperl6: Junc.pod is fine.
18:43		autrijus	or better, docs/src/Junc.pod.
18:43		metaperl6	ok
18:44		nnunley	Wee.  p6l analysis of my send+more=money implementation.
18:45		autrijus	nnunley: yeah. which led me to not ship it with 6.0.9 :)
18:46		autrijus	hope that's okay with you
18:46		luqui	natural monadic operations in perl will correspond rougly to overloading the semicolon operator
18:47		luqui	yay for macros!
18:47		autrijus	uh.
18:47			malaire has joined #perl6
18:47		autrijus	you'll also have to overload destructive assignment.
18:48		autrijus	be back in a bit.
18:48			autrijus has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0+/20050219]")
18:49		luqui	be back tomorrow
18:49			luqui has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:50		nnunley	autrijus: No offense taken.  I commited in order to find out what the correct implementation would be.
18:56		Coke_	wow. could fink's haskell have more dependencies?
18:57		ingy	Coke_: do a binary install of ghc
18:57		ingy	it is painless
18:57		Coke_	how?
18:57		ingy	download the .dmg from the ghc site
18:57		Coke_	ah, htought you meant through fink. =-)
18:59		Coke_	(gah, 30MB. =-)
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19:18		Coke_	Note pugs/README mentions C<cpansign>, which I don't seem to have.
19:18		Coke_	(hurm. it does say optional, I suppose that's sufficient. =-)
19:19		clkao	it's in module::signature
19:20		Coke_	note that the referenced "SIGNATURE" is actually empty.
19:21		integral	the one in svn, or the one is a dist tarball?
19:21		Coke_	svn.
19:22		integral	well that should be empty.  The signature is for a distributed tarball
19:22		Coke_	Perhaps instead of being empty, it can have the text, "This file left blank intentionally". =-)
19:22		integral	heh
19:23		Coke_	huh. tests seem veeeery fast.
19:25		Coke_	I have test failures in svn-current.
19:25		Coke_	t/S03.t                    7    2  28.57%  3 5
19:25		PerlJam	failure is always fast :)
19:25		wolverian	timing out is not!
19:26		malaire	btw, the chat-log for this channel seems to break many perl-examples by thinking they contain email-addresses which should be hidden. Is there any way to fix this?
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19:27		autrijus	a huge set of changes is about to land.
19:27		malaire	Reading logs is a bit hard when 50% of perl-codes has '[emailhidden.address]' in it...
19:27		autrijus	verily!
19:27		pjcj	feb owns the logger
19:27		autrijus	maybe beginning @ can be exepmted.
19:27		autrijus	btw, S03.t should be folded info 03operator.t.
19:27		autrijus	which I did.
19:28		autrijus	the t\0*.t are for the numbered synopses.
19:28		autrijus	also, our use of CR/CRLF was not consistent
19:28		autrijus	so I fixed it too.
19:29		autrijus	still committing...
19:33		autrijus	still going...
19:33		autrijus	hm. I may not have the time/bandwidth to sync up to svn.perl.org tonight, then.
19:33		ingy	autrijus: when will you write my kwid parsing starter kit
19:34		autrijus	ingy: tomorrow once I wake up, I think.
19:34		autrijus	be sure to ping me.
19:34		ingy	ok...
19:34		Khisanth	autrijus: you actually sleep? :)
19:34		autrijus	ingy: it will also help if you write some tests.
19:34		ingy	ok
19:34		autrijus	i.e. corner cases
19:34		ingy	yeah
19:34		autrijus	that can be fed to parser to ensure it does not break.
19:34		ingy	don't do it all :P
19:34		malaire	Should all tests pass now? I get 2 failures with 341 (both in t/S03)
19:35		* ingy	is reading the parsec manual
19:35		autrijus	you need 342.
19:35		autrijus	which all passes.
19:35		autrijus	and is much cleaner to boot.
19:36		ingy	you have to boot it?
19:36		ingy	:P
19:36		autrijus	;)
19:36		ingy	you know too much english
19:37		ingy	maybe I can take lessons during yapc :p
19:37		autrijus	heh :p
19:37		autrijus	sure.
19:39		autrijus	now I sleep :)
19:39		* autrijus	waves &
19:39			autrijus has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0+/20050219]")
19:43		Coke_	just svn updated and re-conf,make,test ... 100% pass.
19:44		PerlJam	yeah, but have you looked to see if he cheated yet?  ;-)
19:45		malaire	yep, I got 100% too
19:47			malaire has left
19:56		metaperl6	so
19:56		metaperl6	is the other svc admin here? I need my openfoundry account activated
19:58		ingy	hcchien: ping
19:59		ingy	metaperl6: I think it would be hcchien
19:59		ingy	and I think he would be sleeping... or insane
19:59		metaperl6	hcchien, could you authorize me for commits? I have something I want to commit
19:59		ingy	metaperl6: you could mail a patch too
20:00		metaperl6	its a new file
20:00		metaperl6	intermediate commit of my pod on Junc.hs
20:00		metaperl6	does autrijus/hcchien sleep 4 or 8 hours? :)
20:00		ingy	in pod or kwid?
20:00		ingy	;)
20:00		metaperl6	well, no worry, I won't lose it by tomorrow. It is in pod
20:00		Steve_p	diff -u /dev/null $filename
20:01		ingy	metaperl6: have you looked at perlkwid yet?
20:01		metaperl6	no... I dont know what that is.
20:01		* ingy	needs to write pod2kwid
20:01			edgewalk1r is now known as edgewalker
20:01			Squall` has joined #perl6
20:01		ingy	pugs/lib/Perl6/lib/perlkwid.kwid
20:02		Squall`	wow, i thought perl6 was just an idea, dos the topic suggest that there's actually a usuable version of it out?
20:03		ingy	yes
20:03		metaperl6	kwid would be a big improvement if verbatim paragraphs could be specified in some way like {{{ }}}
20:03		ingy	Squall`: install ghc and Perl6::Pugs
20:03		metaperl6	or =for verbatim =cut
20:03		Squall`	ok
20:03		ingy	metaperl6:
20:04		ingy	.verbatim
20:04		ingy	...
20:04		ingy	.verbatim.
20:04		edgewalker	http://www.kwiki.org/ 403?
20:04		metaperl6	perlkwid.kwid did not say that under verbatim paragraphs
20:04		metaperl6	which is why I made my comment
20:05		ingy	metaperl6: I know. it would be an easy kwid extension tough
20:05		ingy	though
20:05		ingy	and useful
20:05		metaperl6	well I'm going to lunch... yes very useful
20:05		* metaperl6	slips out the door
20:12		nnunley	Hrm.  Have I missed the documentation on the accessors for Junctions?  Junc.states seems to be something promised.
20:13		ingy	hi nnunley
20:13		nnunley	ingy: Hey, ingy.  How goes?
20:13		ingy	nnunley: good. do you ever get out to Seattle?
20:14		nnunley	ingy:  Pretty rarely, these days.
20:14		nnunley	ingy:  Last time I was there was 2000, I think.  When the national poetry slam was there.
20:14		ingy	you are always welcome to stay a spell at our place
20:14		* nnunley	grins.
20:15		ingy	are you trekking to oscon?
20:15		nnunley	Danke.  Once I hit the ground in London, you're welcome to stay with us, too.
20:15		ingy	nnunley: oh right...
20:15		nnunley	Hadn't planned on it yet, but I think it might be in the budget.
20:15		ingy	cool
20:16		ingy	I forgot about the London thingy
20:17		nnunley	Easy to forget.   I've been in transitional state for a rather long time.  A bit like a junction. :)
20:17		clkao	lol
20:17		ingy	like schwern
20:17		ingy	hi clkao
20:17		nnunley	nnunley = one(Pittsburgh|London)
20:17		ingy	clkao: are you still depressed?
20:18		clkao	i'm tired. it's 4am
20:18		nnunley	Snow's really coming down here.
20:18		nnunley	clkao: Sleep good.
20:18		ingy	clkao: I read that thing that made you depressed.
20:18		nnunley	Insomia bad.
20:18		ingy	I don't think it was that bad
20:18		nnunley	s/som/somn/
20:18		ingy	svk is still rough, but it is genuinely useful
20:19		ingy	so keep on keeping on with it
20:19		clkao	ingy: no it wasn't, it was just a late-night boring whining
20:19		ingy	but we all know svk sucks right?
20:19		clkao	ya. terribly
20:19		ingy	at least it sucks less than yaml
20:20		clkao	and i got two thank-you mails today. how sickful. why don't they complain?
20:20			sorje has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:22		theorbtwo	Anybody know if Autjirus is going to speak at YAPC::NA?
20:24		clkao	i heard that he wants to go estonia around that time.
20:27		Steve_p	theorbtwo, official submissions are still open for YAPC::NA
20:38			pbuetow has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:43		ingy	I proposed to fill in for autrijus at oscon
20:43		* theorbtwo	.sleep();
20:45		ingy	theorbtwo: does that put the current topic to sleep?
20:45		stevan	no only orbtwo because he was the invocant
20:45		ingy	hmmm
20:45		stevan	sleep ($obrtwo:) {}
20:46			ingy is now known as theobratwo
20:46		theobratwo	hi obra
20:46			theobratwo is now known as ingy
20:49			qmole has joined #perl6
20:49		ingy	hi qmole
20:49		qmole	hey
20:50		ingy	new to here?
20:50		qmole	yeah
20:51		ingy	do you use perl5?
20:51		qmole	i do
20:51		ingy	you can use perl6 now if you want
20:52		ingy	it's easy enough to install
20:52		ingy	grab ghc and Perl6::Pugs from cpan
20:52		* PerlJam	finding that writing perl6 code that actually runs is exhilarating
20:53		PerlJam	except when pugs can't parse what should be legal perl6.  Then it's mildly annoying until pugs is patched  ;-)
20:53		qmole	i'm doing so
20:53		ingy	cool
20:53		qmole	second attempt though
20:53		ingy	you can also use svn to get the latest code which is being written in real time :)
20:56			Squall` has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:58			iblechbot has joined #perl6
20:58		Steve_p	PerlJam, I know.  I'm chomping at the bit for objects :)
20:58		PerlJam	Steve_p: start implementing them then!   :-)
20:59		PerlJam	I'm wrapping my head (slowly) around haskell and parsec so that I can get to perl6 rules at some point.
20:59		PerlJam	I fear though, that others will have to pave that way.
21:00		Steve_p	PerlJam, I need to get a handle on Haskell first :)
21:00		qmole	heh
21:00		PerlJam	Let's see ... if I cut out one(family,sleep,consulting,work) I could get more pugs stuff done and learn more haskell.
21:00		qmole	finally, a motive to learn haskell
21:01		PerlJam	I really wish I could cut out consulting.  Perhaps I can forego sleep?
21:01		Khisanth	PerlJam: I vote for sleep
21:02		buu	autark-jp !
21:02		* ingy	invents Kwid bytecode
21:02		PerlJam	Khisanth: the only trick there is that my wife wants me to go to bed when she goes to bed.  If I lay down too long (waiting for her to fall asleep) I'll fall asleep too.
21:02		buu	ingy: You freak
21:02		buu	ingy: Actually I had a question about kwid
21:02		Khisanth	hmm
21:02		buu	How is something like
21:02		buu	.list
21:02		buu	-foo
21:02		buu	bar
21:02		ingy	buu: necessary for defining kwid tests. and quite useful beyond that
21:02		buu	-baz
21:02		buu	.list.
21:03		buu	Supposed to render?
21:03		Khisanth	s/wife/android/ :P
21:03		ingy	first off, it is:
21:03		PerlJam	I guess I could set the alarm and wake up 2 hours earlier or something and get my haskell time then.
21:03		ingy	- foo
21:03		Khisanth	or maybe s/android/cyborg/
21:03		buu	Oh, that makes a difference?
21:03		Khisanth	PerlJam: do you drive to work?
21:03		PerlJam	Khisanth: I do.
21:03		Khisanth	can you take the bus/train instead/
21:03		Khisanth	?
21:04		PerlJam	I could but it would eat up an inordinate amount of my day.
21:04		ingy	but it would render same as pod's: =over\=item foo\bar\=item baz\=back\
21:04		buu	PerlJam: The idea is to do stuff on the train I think
21:05		buu	ingy: Well, yeah, I thought so, but how is *that* supposed to render? And have you actually written a kwid parser?
21:05			edgewalk1r has joined #perl6
21:05		Khisanth	PerlJam: cut out food! :P
21:05		ingy	buu: .list is a direct translation of =over
21:05		PerlJam	buu: I don't know about you, but I have trouble focusing as it is without *more* things to distract me  :)
21:05		ingy	buu: see Pod::Simple :P
21:05		buu	PerlJam: Er, focusing on what?
21:05			webmind has joined #perl6
21:05		Khisanth	PerlJam: learn haskell and lose weight at the same time
21:05		PerlJam	ingy: you like nroff and troff don't you?
21:05		webmind	uhm.. hi
21:05		ingy	buu: I'm working on a parsec parser
21:05		webmind	can I ask perl6/pugs questions here or ?
21:06		PerlJam	webmind: this would be the place!
21:06		webmind	good
21:06		buu	webmind: No no, you want #php
21:06		webmind	buu, :)
21:06		ingy	PerlJam: I need to be able to support all Pod, if there is going to be a migration
21:07		webmind	I've installed pugs.. and was playing with it.. but when I do something like: 'for(0..1) { print "$_\n"; }' it prints '$_' ten times..
21:07		PerlJam	ingy: just like the perl6 parser is going to support perl5?  ;)
21:07		webmind	I wondered if that is correct.. and how it should be if it is :)
21:07		ingy	PerlJam: quite unlike that :P
21:07		Khisanth	webmind: try a newer pugs :)
21:08		webmind	Khisanth, uhm.. this one is from friday out of cpan ?
21:08		ingy	webmind: get the code from svn
21:08		PerlJam	webmind: friday?  That's *ancient*
21:08		Khisanth	webmind: it prints 0\n1 here
21:08		buu	heh
21:08		webmind	PerlJam, it's when I was introcuded to  it
21:08		Khisanth	friday is indeed ancient if you are talking about  pugs :)
21:08		ingy	webmind: and write a cron to svn up every minute ;)
21:08		Khisanth	webmind: there is almost a release every day :P
21:08		webmind	damn..
21:08		Khisanth	webmind: which version do you have?
21:09		webmind	well.. I guess it is still a bit new use
21:09		webmind	yes
21:09		webmind	6.0.8 ?
21:09		PerlJam	Friday probably had a revision number < 200
21:09		buu	webmind: 6.0.9
21:10		Khisanth	webmind: works correctly in 6.0.9
21:10		Khisanth	where is the bug tracker for pugs?
21:10		webmind	I'll try and update :)
21:11		webmind	is cpan updated regularly ?
21:11		webmind	hmm
21:11		webmind	apearently not...
21:11		buu	For some value of regular
21:12		Khisanth	it is on CPAN your mirror may not have updated yet
21:12		PerlJam	webmind: yes, it's update regularly (for some value of regular as buu says) but supposedly there will be a pugs release each week.
21:12		webmind	since cpan still hosts 60.8
21:12		webmind	6.0.8
21:13		buu	heh
21:13		buu	buumakefile
21:13		Khisanth	http://search.cpan.org/~autrij[…]Perl6-Pugs-6.0.9/ no it doesn't :p
21:13		Steve_p	webmind, you should be able to browse ftp://pause.perl.org/incoming
21:14		Khisanth	PerlJam: what are you using for learning haskell?
21:14		buu	Latest is r345?
21:14		Steve_p	buu, probably 'round there
21:14		webmind	thnx
21:14		Steve_p	It was around 300 on Saturday morning
21:14		buu	Just making sure.
21:14		PerlJam	Khisanth: I've just been using the stuff from haskell.org
21:14		buu	I did svn up and remade, but I've had problems making properly.
21:15		Steve_p	buu, nopaste?
21:15		buu	Steve_p: Er, sorry, what?
21:15		Khisanth	Version Installed              6.0.5
21:15		Khisanth	Version on CPAN                6.0
21:15		Khisanth	hmm that seems a bit odd
21:16		stevan	buu: what revsion?
21:16		nnunley	Khisanth:  The YaHT is one of the better haskell tutorials.  http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/
21:16		buu	stevan: any
21:16		Steve_p	buu, http://paste.husk.org . Enter your errors you are seeing there.
21:16		PerlJam	nnunley: It's fairly good but there are a few gaps in the text that are slightly annoying.
21:16		buu	Steve_p: one sec.
21:17		webmind	and.. yay it works with 6.0.9
21:17		buu	Wow, I just calld the Dentist's office and got a modem
21:17		buu	Steve_p: Anyways, it's a nmake error
21:18		Steve_p	heh, there've been a few
21:18		nnunley	PerlJam:  True.
21:19		nnunley	They all can be a little rough, actually.
21:20		buu	NMAKE : fatal error U1045: spawn failed : Invalid argument
21:20		buu	Yay nmake!
21:20		Steve_p	log?
21:20		Steve_p	Crap!  No infobot!
21:20			edgewalker has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:21		buu	heh
21:21		buu	I'm pretty sure my nmake is just broke though, or something
21:21		Steve_p	Oh, that was you earlier
21:22		buu	Yeah
21:22		buu	I wrote my own make file though
21:22		buu	It looks like
21:22		buu	perl Makefile.PL -version; ghc --stuff main.hs
21:28		buu	ingy: Are you doing anything with the documentation?
21:30			Norman has joined #perl6
21:32		Steve_p	buu, http://svn.openfoundry.org/pug[…]lib/perlkwid.kwid
21:32		crysflame	.
21:32		buu	Steve_p: What about it?
21:32		Steve_p	That's what ingy is doing to the documentation :)
21:32		buu	heh
21:33		buu	Point taken
21:33		ingy	:)
21:33		buu	I grepped the perl6-documentation mailing list,found like 4 actual pod documents totalling 300 lines
21:33		Steve_p	the pod is dead!  long live the kwid!
21:33		ingy	metaperl6: I added .verbatim
21:33		metaperl6	oh wonderful
21:34		* metaperl6	svn update and looks at perlkwiki.kiw... or whatever it's named
21:34		Steve_p	heh
21:35		ingy	I was thinking that an optional ending marker could be passed to .verbatim
21:35		Steve_p	yeah tbone-metaperl-whatever :)
21:35		ingy	.verbatim ^%^*&%
21:35		ingy	but I'
21:35		ingy	but I'm holding off for now
21:35		buu	I was working on a perl parser for it
21:35		metaperl6	does a file document its usage ingy? I just did svn update
21:35			nnunley has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
21:35		buu	metaperl6: Pssh, documentation.
21:36		ingy	but I'm holding off for now
21:36		* metaperl6	returns to documenting Junc.hs
21:36		ingy	crap ...
21:36		metaperl6	in plain ol' pod
21:36		ingy	one sec
21:36		buu	Yay, documentation++
21:36			Norman is now known as nnunley
21:36		ingy	metaperl6: try again
21:37		webmind	hmm
21:37		webmind	'my @bar = @bla »-« 2;'
21:37		webmind	that's legal code in perl6 right ?
21:37		buu	Eww, unicode =[
21:37		integral	hmm, that didn't render here
21:38		metaperl6	yes, the docs were there but I am not sure how to bracket the verbatim... I guess a blank line ends the verbatim paragraph?
21:38			edgewalk1r is now known as edgewalker
21:38		ingy	buu: you were writing a kwid parser?
21:38		buu	ingy: Yeah
21:38		webmind	buu, how are you going to use those operators without unicode ?
21:38		ingy	cool, in what language?
21:38		buu	webmind: They have ascii equivalents.
21:38		buu	ingy: Perl!
21:38		ingy	5 or 6
21:38		buu	5
21:38		buu	. o O ( Just kidding, it's actually in brainfuck! )
21:38		ingy	that would be cool
21:39		webmind	buu, hmm, well 'my @bar = @bla >>-<< 2;' isn't working either
21:39		nnunley	webmind:  You probably want my @bar = @bla >>-<< 2;
21:39		integral	oh, that reminds me of something I asked a day or so ago;  how do you do IO in p6?
21:39		nnunley	webmind: Pugs doesn't have hyperoperators yet.
21:39		webmind	ah.. darn
21:39		integral	the a/e/s say that filehandles are now iterators, but I've only seen for *$IN -> $a { } as an example of how to use them
21:39		ingy	buu: I'm sketching out a kwid bytecode
21:39		crysflame	>>-<< ?!
21:39		ingy	pod could parse to the same bytecode
21:40		nnunley	crysflame: vector subtraction.
21:40		buu	ingy: Sounds entertaining.
21:40		crysflame	i..
21:40		webmind	crysflame, in my example: subtract 2 from all values in @bla
21:40		crysflame	promptly wonder if it'll support the latin1 >>
21:40		crysflame	argh i hate me
21:40		ingy	buu: it is how I'll write kwid tests
21:40		ingy	which you can use
21:40		buu	ingy: Heh, I looked at pod2html, it renders that .list. construct as <dl> <dt> </dt> <dd></dd> </dl> I believe.
21:40		buu	Tests are cool.
21:41		webmind	pugs doesn't seem to like junctions either :)
21:41		nnunley	crysflame: The unicode version of >> (?) works, too.
21:42		integral	»+«
21:42		nnunley	webmind: It does like junctions fine.  :)  Mostly.
21:42		nnunley	webmind: What are you trying to do with them?
21:42		webmind	nnunley, something bad I think.. 'my $foo = 0|1|2; print $foo;'
21:43		nnunley	webmind: Can?t directly print a junction.
21:43		webmind	ok
21:43		ingy	buu: yeah I think that is messed up
21:43		buu	ingy: Oh, why?
21:43		webmind	kinda make sense
21:43		integral	so some types just won't have stringifications?
21:43		nnunley	Which is part of my broken sendmoremoney.p6 example.
21:43		ingy	buu: I would think it would use <li>
21:44		ingy	but whatever
21:44		nnunley	Err, part of why my sendmoremoney.p6 example is broken.
21:44		ingy	it is only one formatter of pod to html
21:44		nnunley	integral: Pretty much.  I think there?s supposed to be a Junction.states method to reveal what states are still possible in a junction.
21:44		buu	ingy: Well yeah, but how does <li> work with the text paragraph?
21:45		integral	that'll be fun :-)   poor newbies getting exceptions when printing things ;-)   Enough people moan about undef warnings
21:45		buu	(undef warnings)--
21:46		nnunley	integral:  I guess it?s because print $foo; should output 3 times (0\n1\n2\)
21:46		integral	yeah, which makes junctions very, very different from other types
21:46		buu	nnunley: What the heck are you generating instead of a single quote?
21:46		integral	but that thread's been done to death :-(
21:46		nnunley	buu:  Bad things, mikey.
21:46		buu	=[
21:47		nnunley	There we go.  I was in the wrong character group.
21:48		buu	Hurray!
21:48		nnunley	buu:  I take it your irc client doesn't support unicode?
21:48		buu	nnunley: Guess not. Blame debian.
21:48		integral	nnunley: was that utf-8 you were using?   I just got a ?
21:49		nnunley	integral: That was supposedly utf-8.
21:49		crysflame	nice
21:49		integral	hmm
21:49		crysflame	can you temporarily evaluate a junction without permanently affecting that which you are evaluating?
21:50		crysflame	it looked exactly like latin 1 preceded by a utf-8 market
21:50		nnunley	crysflame: Heh.  Great.
21:51		buu	Hrm. TokeParser++
21:51		nnunley	crysflame:  You mean, narrow it?  Not sure.
21:52		crysflame	nnunley: "narrow it"?
21:52		crysflame	is that code speak for what i said?
21:52		crysflame	er, formal speak
21:52		integral	hmm, are junctions like the list monad in Haskell?
21:52		nnunley	crysflame: Nah, I mean, narrow down the number of states...  It's semi-formal.  No suit required.
21:52		crysflame	given my $foo : readonly = (0|1|2); # can i evaluate $foo repeatedly, for different results?
21:52		nnunley	crysflame: Yeap.
21:53		crysflame	okay, cool
21:53		integral	hmm, probably not. rhm
21:53		crysflame	so if i don't mark it readonly does it get permanently evaluated after the first time?
21:53		nnunley	I think it evaluates each time it's used, actually, whether it's readonly or not.
21:53		crysflame	cool, so the original isn't collapsed
21:54		crysflame	is there a .collapse() for doing so?
21:54		crysflame	or just $foo = $foo; # collapses
21:54		nnunley	Only time it stays collapsed is when its chained together... as far as I know.
21:54		nnunley	If I know how to collapse state, I'd finish sendmoremoney.p6 properly. :)
21:54		crysflame	nnunley: stringify it!
21:54		* crysflame	&
21:55		integral	t
21:55		nnunley	You mean, "$foo" where foo is the junction?
21:58		ingy	buu: I think you can put almost anything in <li>
21:58		buu	ingy: I suppose, but what would you put?
21:58		ingy	the stuff until the next item
21:58		buu	So:
21:58		buu	.list
21:58		buu	- foo
21:58		buu	bar
21:59		buu	.list.
21:59		buu	Would render as: <ul> <li> foo bar </li > </ul> ?
21:59		ingy	buu: see http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S02.html
21:59			feb has joined #perl6
21:59		ingy	I'm sure it was written in pod
22:00		ingy	but it uses a different formatter
22:00		ingy	and uses <li>
22:00		integral	Combust
22:00		ingy	hmm
22:01		ingy	it puts stuff after the </li>
22:01		buu	Oh good.
22:01		ingy	but I'm not sure that is necessary
22:01		buu	Isn't that invalid markup?
22:01		ingy	I don't think so
22:02			Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
22:02		buu	I'm pretty sure it is
22:02		buu	It's not valid HTML 4.01 transitional
22:03		ingy	buu: to correctly nest in html, you do <ul><li><ul><li></li></ul></li></ul>
22:03		wolverian	xhtml1.1 all the way.
22:03		buu	ingy: Right, is that the correct output?
22:03		ingy	the li contains the sub ul
22:04		buu	yeah
22:04		buu	That seems incorrect though, now you have two things that produce lists
22:04		ingy	I'll check, but the point is that parsing and formatting need to be separate
22:04		buu	Actual list formatters and text blocks
22:04		buu	Well, yeah, this was related to my parsing output
22:05		ingy	right
22:05			feb has left "Client exiting"
22:06		buu	I suppose I'll just produce a list_item_start, text, list_item_end, text, text, list_item_Start
22:06		buu	Or something similar.
22:08			stef_ has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
22:08			cognominal has joined #perl6
22:12		mugwump	ingy: that's what I thought, too ... but I think this is more correct;
22:12		mugwump	<ul> <li></li> <ul><li></li></ul> <li></li> </ul>
22:12		ingy	buu: the bytecode is a formalized and compact version of that
22:13		buu	mugwump: Er, are you sure?
22:13		ingy	mugwump: that is invalid xhtml
22:13		buu	Yeah I thought so
22:13		ingy	afaik
22:14		ingy	Kwiki currently does that
22:14		ingy	and several people have informed me it is wrong
22:14		ingy	:)
22:14		ingy	the item *contains* the sublist
22:15		mugwump	I guess I should really look at the spec before piping up stuff like that
22:15		buu	ingy: Any idea what the bytecode looks like?
22:15		integral	*blink* Am I the only one who took this as the obvious way to do it?
22:15		buu	integral: It seems wrong to me =[
22:18		buu	integral: Only one thing should produce a <ul>, .list
22:18		ingy	integral: ?
22:19		integral	i was meaning the <li><ul/></li> in html
22:19		ingy	ah
22:19		ingy	buu: I'm working on the bytecode now
22:20		buu	Er, so should my parser try to output bytecode or what?
22:20		ingy	buu: do you have SubEthaEdit?
22:21		buu	Nope.
22:21		ingy	buu: tmtowtdi, but your parser should call event handlers that map to the bytecode
22:21		buu	Eww, event handlers =/
22:22		ingy	event handlers don't have to be  icky
22:22		ingy	for instance
22:22		ingy	you could make it so that a program hands your parser the name of a class that implements the event handlers
22:23		buu	...
22:23		ingy	so registration is easy
22:23		ingy	or maybe you want a pull parser
22:23		buu	Yes, yes I do.
22:24		* PerlJam	pulls buu's pants down
22:24		ingy	why? (just wondering)
22:24		* buu	brutally beats PerlJam
22:24		ingy	either way, you will have events that map to the bytecode
22:25		buu	ingy: It's my opinion that pullparsers make it easier to write code that actually uses them.
22:25		ingy	a bytecode formatter will be trivial, and used for testing your parser
22:25		ingy	buu: how so?
22:25		* PerlJam	enjoys the beating but wishes it were gorgeous female rather than buu doing the beating.
22:26		buu	ingy: Perhaps a slightly contrived example, but imagine you want to skip the first 20 events
22:26		buu	If you were using events, you'd have to have code in every single event sub that checks thenumber of events and such.
22:26		integral	don't you just want a DSL that maps your logic onto the underlying parser, either pull, or event based?
22:26		buu	integral: I banish you and your DSL's
22:26		buu	But if you are using a pullparser, you just call 'get_token' 20 times then do what ever you want.
22:27			cognominal has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:28		buu	Maybe I'm just biased.
22:28		ingy	buu: true. you have to write your own dispatch loop though
22:28		ingy	a better example: imagine you want to prune a branch
22:28		buu	Yeah, but those typically aren't very onerous
22:29		buu	Yes?
22:29		PerlJam	buu: or you have a proxy "event object" that skips 20 tokens before it hands stuff off to the real event manager
22:29		PerlJam	er, s/manager/handler/
22:29		buu	PerlJam: Sounds overly complex and hard to write.
22:29		ingy	you get a start event for that branch and return a code or throw an exception to ignore the branch
22:29		PerlJam	buu: Actually, I was thinking it sounds almost monadic :-)
22:30		ingy	easier in a push parser :)
22:30		buu	while( $t = get_token ) { print unless $t->branch_id == $id }
22:30		buu	=p
22:30			cognominal has joined #perl6
22:30		integral	PerlJam: well ; is a lot like >>
22:30			feber has joined #perl6
22:31		PerlJam	buu: you just don't like event driven things.
22:31		PerlJam	buu: you like to be in control
22:31		buu	PerlJam: Probably.
22:32		integral	directly writing FSMs does suck though...
22:32		buu	(psychiatric evaluation through perl)++
22:32		* buu	beats integral to death with a TLA
22:32		ingy	buu: a pull parser is nice because it is trivial to convert to a push parser
22:32		integral	converting a push parser to a pull parser can be done with continuations
22:33		ingy	buu: you don't use a mac?
22:33		buu	ingy: Fraid not.
22:34		ingy	too bad. SEE is fun
22:35		PerlJam	ingy: fun, eh?  Are you using it for pugs development?  Do multiple editors come and go as you compose?
22:36		ingy	I was thinking of using it to help create the kwid bytecode spec
22:36		ingy	I used it recently to write an oscon tutorial proposal
22:36		ingy	it was great
22:36		buu	Hrm. I wrote a pod::pullparser type thing, and for the following code
22:37		buu	= head1 my header
22:37		buu	my paragraph
22:37		buu	I produced 6 tokens
22:37		buu	start header, text, end header, start textpara, text, end textpara;
22:38		ingy	buu: yep
22:38		buu	Seems a little wordy, but I'm not sure how else to do it
22:38		ingy	it will be like that, but more compact
22:38		buu	I would prefer to just produce a "header_token" containing the header text, but then what do I do about embedded formatting codes?
22:39		integral	return a header_token with an embedded token stream
22:39		buu	Er, so the user has to recurse in to it?
22:39		integral	of course.   Sounds nicely haskell/lispish
22:39		buu	=[
22:40		buu	Recursion always comes off so ugly though
22:40		ingy	>=1, ==my header, <=, >P, ==my paragraph\n, <P
22:40		buu	Gah
22:40		buu	ingy: What the hell.
22:40		PerlJam	buu: yeah! recursive quicksort is *so* ugly!
22:40		ingy	:D
22:40		buu	PerlJam: Ok, in some cases it isn't, but I think it would be fore this case
22:40		ingy	buu: it is a bytecode
22:41		ingy	anyway, it can be open for comment
22:41		buu	It scares me.
22:41		buu	Anyways, what was the point for the bytecode again?
22:41		ingy	> == start, < == end
22:42		ingy	as a standard compact intermediate form
22:42		buu	We need one?
22:42		ingy	it is based off of YAML bytecode
22:42		ingy	it is great for testing
22:42		integral	data PodBlock = Header [PodInline] | Paragraph [PodInline]; data PodInline = Text | Bold PodInline; -- ...
22:42		integral	barely recursive at all
22:42		PerlJam	ingy: why don't you use the SOH, STX, ETX, EOT, etc. characters?  ;)
22:43			feber is now known as feb
22:43		ingy	buu: btw, I am working on a parsec parser for kwid
22:43		buu	ingy: I remember.
22:43		ingy	cool
22:43		buu	integral: MY problem is escapes embedded in escapes =[
22:43		* PerlJam	really must get on the ball learning parsec
22:43		integral	buu: data PodInline = Escape PodInline;!
22:44		integral	actually you probably don't want to use the constructor in your code, but rather a function wrapper for it which does some eager normalisation
22:44		buu	Yeah..
22:45		feb	did someone here complain about @ signs in the logs ?
22:45		buu	I was thinking about that, but how do you tell the difference between f<b<foo>> and f<foo> b<foo>
22:45		buu	or rather
22:45		PerlJam	feb: someone earlier mentioned that they show up as email addresses (hidden) in the logs
22:45		buu	I was thinking about that, but how do you tell the difference between f<foo b<bar>> and f<foo> b<bar>
22:46		feb	yes, saw it. Just to mention that it's now improved
22:46		feb	all @ signs should come through except email addesses
22:46		integral	because one is Escape (Text "foo" : Bold (Text "bar" : []))) or something
22:46		PerlJam	feb: Where are the logs at?
22:47		feb	http://colabti.de/irclogger//irclogger_logs/perl6
22:47		buu	integral: Er, so what's the other?
22:47		ingy	{ffoo {bbarb}f}
22:47		feb	the topic gives an url too, btw
22:47		integral	buu: Escape (Text "foo" : []) : Bold (Text "bar" : []) or something
22:47		buu	recursion--
22:48		* integral	goes back to working
22:49		* buu	ponders
22:49		feb	good night
22:50			feb has left "Client exiting"
22:50		* Steve_p	is pleased to see so many fellow monks here
22:50		buu	heh
22:50		buu	Monks++
22:51		* ingy	is a dirty monk
22:51		buu	ingy: What do dirty monks do?
22:51		Steve_p	No underware under the robes
22:52		ingy	well I'm more of a wandering monk. I haven't been to the monastery much, and yeah, I freeball it
22:52		buu	Monastery is great.
22:52		ingy	but i have been in perlmonks since 2000
22:54		buu	Bah. I guess I'm going back to start and end tags.
22:54		ingy	?
22:55		buu	start and end events.
22:55		buu	tokens, whatever.
22:55		buu	start header, text, start escape, text, end escape, end header;
22:55		ingy	instead of?
22:55		buu	Well, I would prefer a token that contained everything from start to end
22:55		ingy	that's an optimization
22:56		ingy	sounds premature
22:56		ingy	:p
22:56		buu	Um
22:56		buu	It's a ease of use optimization, those are never premature!
22:56		ingy	sure they are
22:56		buu	Bah
22:56		buu	This one isn't.
22:57		ingy	they why are you going back to start and end?
22:57		buu	hahaha
22:57		buu	ingy: Because I don't see a good way to deal with escape code thingies, which can be nested.
22:57		ingy	:)
22:58		buu	Hrm. Maybe I'll have a command token which contains a list of text / escape items
22:58		buu	and I can do start/end just for the escapes.
22:59		ingy	the bytecode will always have begin/end since you can generate those from the optimized view
22:59		buu	bah
23:00		buu	You can generate start/end from my optimized tokens!
23:00		ingy	that's what I said
23:00		buu	Yeah I know
23:00		buu	Time for cisco
23:00		ingy	so it will be easy to use the bytecode tests for you
23:03		ingy	hmm. I just realized that I am optimizing
23:03		ingy	I didn't even catch that.
23:03		buu	heh
23:03		buu	Optimization is good.
23:03		ingy	:P
23:04		buu	Especially premature, code twsting, mind bending optimization.
23:06		buu	Anyways, cisco time, I shall be back to mock your bytecode... soon.
23:06		ingy	cisco?
23:07		ingy	buu: look in t/kwid/readme when you return
23:16			iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:20		stevan	r348 --- All tests successful, 1 subtest skipped. Files=51, Tests=768
23:20		stevan	:)
23:30			buu_ has joined #perl6
23:30		buu_	I return!
23:32		buu_	hi buu
23:32		ingy	hi buu
23:32		ingy	hi ingy
23:32		buu_	heh
23:32		ingy	er
23:32		ingy	hi ingy_
23:32		ingy	almost done
23:32		buu_	Go wake up aujitrus
23:34		buu_	Hrm. I think I'll write my own query string parser.
23:34		crysflame	hum.
23:35		buu_	Anyone taken a look at p6-doc? I grepped it for emails containing pod and found about 4, aujitrus seemed to imply that they had actually produced some useful docs
23:35		buu_	Did I miss them in the archive or is he missinformed?
23:37		buu_	Did everyone die?
23:39		* ingy	rises from the dead
23:39		buu_	Good trick
23:41		buu_	Now answer!
23:41		ingy	hehe
23:41		ingy	dunno
23:42		buu_	=[
23:42		buu_	Because it looks like a stinking morass of failure to me
23:46		ingy	buu_: yo
23:46		ingy	buu_: could you review http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/t/kwid/readme for me
23:47		ingy	it's a first pass. I'm sure we can /optimize/ it :)
23:48		buu_	Yes!
23:48		buu_	Optimization++
23:48		ingy	food++
23:49		buu_	Er, is {``} special aside from the `` ?
23:49		ingy	I like the linear bytecode because Test.pm could give me a diff
23:49		ingy	which would be really nice
23:50		ingy	buu_: special?
23:50		buu_	ingy: Is {``} some kind of special formatting construct, or is just a `` surrounded by textual brackets?
23:51		ingy	{``} is the extended `` as {**} is the extended **
23:51		ingy	the cleaner forms are highly restricted
23:51		buu_	Oh
23:51		buu_	Apparently I didn't get that far in to perlkwid =]
23:52		buu_	Ok, in your byte code, for:
23:52		buu_	== sample
23:52		buu_	you generate:
23:52		buu_	>H2
23:52		buu_	=sample
23:52		buu_	<H
23:52		ingy	they must hug their args with whitespace before the biginning one and after the ending one
23:52		buu_	Why is sample preceded by a '=' ?
23:52		ingy	well kind of like that
23:53		ingy	`=` indicates the kind of line it is
23:53		ingy	in the bytecode
23:53		ingy	= for text lines
23:53		buu_	Ah
23:53		buu_	Oh hey
23:53		buu_	I should read the entire thing =]
23:53		ingy	yes
23:54		buu_	Reminds me of xml
23:54		ingy	we could do it in xml :P
23:54		buu_	=[
23:54		buu_	XML makes me weep inside.
23:55		ingy	the text lines are normalized, which means that the parser does the line folding and escaping, etc
23:55		buu_	Ok..
23:55		buu_	I think I understand that
23:55		buu_	What are .Formatted lines?
23:56		ingy	the bytecode uses \n to indicate newline
23:56		buu_	And why didn't you use a list for the bottom?
23:56		ingy	?
23:57		ingy	feel free to refactor
23:57		buu_	heh
23:57		buu_	You never answered the .Formatted
23:57		ingy	. is for things like .foo\n...\n.foo.\n
23:57		buu_	But at the bottom, when you list the types of events, you just have a verbatim block that looks a lot like a list.
23:57		buu_	Er, not following
23:58		ingy	have you read perlkwid
23:58		ingy	there is a generic block syntax akin to =begin foo
23:58		ingy	.foo
23:58		ingy	...
23:58		ingy	.foo.
23:58		ingy	.comment
23:58		ingy	...
23:58		buu_	I thought those were lists
23:58		ingy	.comment.
23:58		ingy	.list
23:58		ingy	...
23:58		ingy	.list.
23:58		ingy	.pod
23:58		ingy	...
23:59		ingy	.pod.
23:59		ingy	etc
23:59		ingy	.html
23:59		ingy	.moinmoin
23:59		ingy	.yomama

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