IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-02

Time	Nick	Message
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00:28	buu	Juerd I spent it all on perl6 books
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01:10	Juerd	buu: How many copies did you buy then?
01:10	Juerd	There only being two books about Perl 6...
01:10	pbuetow	Perl6 is still not complete in specs. Am i right?
01:11	Steve_p	Correct.
01:12	pbuetow	And the stuff about perl6 (syntax etc) which is public wont be changed any more?
01:16		biz has left "Leaving"
01:20	Cale	pbuetow: it might be changed
01:21	Steve_p	They can still be changed. Welcome to a still evolving language :)
01:28	* ingy	screams
01:29	mugwump	and that will never change, because the one thing that is constant is change
01:31	ingy	MakeMaker is a whore
01:32	pbuetow	Hehe. Perl6 might be very interesting :)
01:33	buu	ingy: True, why are you using it?
01:33	buu	pbuetow: Might? It already is
01:49	pbuetow	Hehe.
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02:08	ingy	yay. I got the make system to build ext libs
02:11	ingy	well not quite
02:11	ingy	make test is confused
02:12	* ingy	screams some more
02:13	buu	psst stop using make files..
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02:26	ingy	buu: psst be constructive
02:26	buu	=[
02:26	buu	I'm still trying to parse kwid
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02:27	ingy	that's constructive
02:28	buu	That's not sarcasm?
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02:48	ingy	I'm not sarcastic
02:49	ingy	I'm constructive
02:50	buu	Awesome.
02:50	buu	I need a statemachine like thingy.
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03:06	ingy	does anyone know where the code is that looks up a module for `require`?
03:10	viirya_	ingy: Prim.hs?
03:15	ingy	viirya_: does it look like it works like Perl5?
03:16	ingy	or does it do anything funny?
03:19	viirya_	hmm, a sec
03:21	viirya_	ingy: now it searchs all path in INC for specified filename
03:21	ingy	yeah, that's what it looks like
03:21	viirya_	if found, eval it's content, if no, show error msg.
03:21	buu	Does it append .pm?
03:21	ingy	I am having issues
03:21	ingy	I wonder if paths with .. are ok
03:22	viirya_	buu: no, I don't see that.
03:22	ingy	I am wondering why Perl5 paths are searched
03:22	ingy	I might try taking them out
03:23	ingy	because there are 5 million paths
03:23	viirya_	hmmm
03:23	ingy	I'll just comment out if tests pass
03:25	ingy	viirya_: look at fixLib in Main
03:36	viirya_	ingy: huh?
03:44	ingy	can folks on Linux svn up and test
03:44	ingy	I just checked in major build system changes
03:45	ingy	and now I have to go out to dinner for an hour or so.
03:46	viirya_	buu: that's wrong I said it doesn't append .pm. It does do.
03:47	ingy	It has to!
03:47	viirya_	buu: Not in Prim.hs, but in Parser.hs
03:47	ingy	I hacked up Main to make things pass
03:48	ingy	need to converse with autrijus when she awakes
03:48	ingy	yay!
03:49	ingy	works on linux too
03:49	ingy	now i can go eat in peace
03:54	viirya_	ingy: hmm, you comment the p5lib line
03:55	viirya_	indeed the p5lib is empty.
04:03	crysflame	hello.
04:04	crysflame	is autrijus awake yet?
04:06	buu	No
04:06	buu	Went to sleep like 6 hours ago
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04:09	crysflame	oh, ok
04:11	nnunley	Hrm. How do I pull an int from a Vint?
04:12	crysflame	wild, stupid guess: .pick
04:12	crysflame	not expected to work
04:15	nnunley	Nah. I mean on the Haskell side.
04:16	nnunley	VInt is the AST representation of a p6 Int.
04:17	crysflame	oh!
04:17	crysflame	i've been wondering what V meant. thanks :)
04:18	nnunley	No problem.
04:18	viirya_	doCast
04:19	nnunley	so, given a method int:: Int -> Doc, int $ doCast x (where x is VInt) should work?
04:23	nnunley	viirya_: No dice. doCast returns type Val.
04:29	* nnunley	figures it out.
04:29	nnunley	VInt is actually Integer, not Int.
04:31	viirya_	q
04:33	viirya_	doCast retures Val?
04:35	nnunley	viirya_: Hrm. Sorry... Expects a Val, not returns.
04:54	scw	unpackVInt (VInt a) = a
04:54	scw	then, let n = unpackVInt a makes n a VInt
04:55	scw	let n = fromInteger $ unpackVInt a makes n a Integer
04:55	scw	let n = fromEnum $ unpackVInt a makes n a Int :p
04:57	ingy	back
04:57	buu	ING!
05:01	ingy	so I have a question to get things rolling...
05:01	ingy	1) where should perl6 modules be installed
05:01	ingy	2) where should perl6/pugs look for modules
05:04	ingy	for #1 I'm thinking that pugs could be compiled with the perl5 @INC that was used in the make process
05:04	ingy	but with s/perl5/perl6/ for each path
05:05	ingy	and s/5.8.6/???/
05:06	ingy	for #2...
05:06	ingy	I guess in the long term it needs to look in perl5 paths as well as perl6 ones
05:07	ingy	but that seems crufty for now...
05:08	ingy	also, can I get an "amen" for putting '.' at the start of the path?
05:09	cls_bsd	pugs++
05:09	mugwump	s{/5\.\d+.*$}{}, I reckon, ingy
05:10	ingy	mugwump: I think I concur
05:10	mugwump	in my stock perl5; it has 5 paths, that are all derived from the setting of $PREFIX/lib/perl5 and $PREFIX/lib/perl5/site_perl
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05:11	mugwump	the duplication you get for version-specific and build-specific installation locations, under the locations specified in, eg, PERL5LIB
05:12	ingy	hmmm. I'm looking at a perl that has no @INC paths with 'perl5' in them
05:12	mugwump	eg, try this:
05:12	mugwump	mkdir /tmp/foo
05:12	mugwump	PERL5LIB=/tmp/foo perl -le 'print foreach @INC'
05:12	mugwump	mkdir /tmp/foo/5.8.4
05:12	mugwump	mkdir /tmp/foo/5.8.4/i686-linux-thread-multi-64int-ld
05:12	mugwump	PERL5LIB=/tmp/foo perl -le 'print foreach @INC'
05:12	mugwump	(substituting appropriate values, of course)
05:13	mugwump	you'll notice that the extra directories have automatically been found and added
05:14	ingy	right
05:15	autrijus	greetings lambddacamels.
05:15	mugwump	interestingly, $PREFIX/lib/perl5 is not in my @INC, only $PREFIX/lib/perl5/5.8.4/
05:15	ingy	autrijus has things jiggered up so that the Test.pm is being found in ./lib/Perl6/lib during make test
05:15	autrijus	ingy: we search for @INC under Perl6::lib namespace by default.
05:15	ingy	oops... Hi autrijus !!
05:15	buu	Hallo autrijus
05:15	autrijus	r380 is there, which only checks for such paths that exists.
05:16	autrijus	so should be cleaner.
05:16	autrijus	i.e. @INC only contains the sitelibs that actually has Perl6/lib/ installed under them.
05:16	autrijus	ingy: btw, great work on M::I
05:16	ingy	thanks
05:16	autrijus	pugs can find Test.pm because I set PERL6LIB in makefile.
05:16	ingy	we should get more b&d on the @INC quagmire
05:17	autrijus	or, rather, that was the idea.
05:17	autrijus	let me add absolute path to perl6lib.
05:17	ingy	hold on
05:17	autrijus	mm?
05:18	autrijus	nnunley: having luck with Galadriel?
05:18	ingy	make test should be finding Test.pm in blib
05:18	autrijus	I mean, Pretty
05:18	autrijus	oh right.
05:18	autrijus	that's why the ixLib p5lib
05:18	autrijus	fixLib even
05:18	autrijus	because then it can find things in blib/lib/Perl6/lib
05:18	autrijus	since harness adds it
05:18	ingy	autrijus: that is backwards though
05:18	autrijus	how so? I thought it was pretty neat
05:19	autrijus	at least, until pugs has its own libpath and cpan and stuff
05:19	ingy	Test.pm should go into blib/lib/Test.pm on make
05:19	autrijus	I'm of the opinion that it should go into blib/lib/Perl6/lib/Test.pm
05:19	autrijus	because we ultimately install there.
05:19	ingy	and blib/lib/Test.pm should go into a perl6 place on install
05:20	autrijus	ah.
05:20	autrijus	and where is that place?
05:20	mugwump	either do it simply, or do it right :)
05:20	autrijus	we don't have a Configure
05:20	ingy	that's what we were just talking about
05:20	ingy	we do have a Configure
05:20	autrijus	uh.
05:20	ingy	perl5's Config is just fine
05:20	* autrijus	listens to ingy
05:21	ingy	with substitutions
05:21	autrijus	ok... so on win32 activeperl says its sitelib is C:\Perl\site\lib
05:21	autrijus	what substitutions?
05:21	autrijus	C:\Pugs?
05:21	autrijus	c:\Perl6?
05:21	ingy	Perl6
05:21	ingy	I would think
05:21	ingy	but it matters little
05:21	buu	pugs =/
05:22	autrijus	it matters a lot :-/
05:22	ingy	as long as it doesn't clash
05:22	ingy	with perl5
05:22	autrijus	hmm. my original plan is so that we can reuse CPAN during bootstrapping
05:23	autrijus	so one can upload arbitary perl6 module as Perl6-lib-Foo
05:23	ingy	you don't need that though
05:23	autrijus	of course, we can do a Module::Install::Pugs that works arounds all those, and install into pugs dir
05:23	ingy	exactly
05:23	autrijus	just not sure of the gain
05:23	mugwump	wait... pugs shouldn't have seperate paths to perl6
05:23	autrijus	but it is still on CPAN as Perl6-lib-* ?
05:24	mugwump	only at the build ID level...
05:24	autrijus	mugwump: that was what I was afraid.
05:24	autrijus	perl6 allows only.pm-like functionality
05:24	autrijus	except it's not very well specified
05:24	autrijus	it also allows .net-assembly-like functionality
05:24	autrijus	except it's not very well specified either.
05:25	autrijus	so the existing sitelib scheme under /usr/local/lib/perl6 or C:\Perl6
05:25	autrijus	probably won't work satisfactorily.
05:25	ingy	is .pm decided on?
05:25	autrijus	.pm and .pl are reused.
05:25	autrijus	it's not been decided on whether .pm6 or something else can be used too.
05:25	ingy	positively?
05:26	autrijus	well, synopses says that a perl6 .pm must begin with
05:26	autrijus	module ...;
05:26	autrijus	or
05:26	autrijus	class ...;
05:26	autrijus	to "avoid ambiguitiy with perl5 modules"
05:26	autrijus	which suggests pretty strongly that .pm is the decided extension
05:26	autrijus	but if you think .pm is a bad idea, bug p6l :)
05:26	ingy	my current use case is to move lib/Perl6/lib/Test.pm into ext/Test
05:27	autrijus	ok...
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05:27	ingy	hi chromatic
05:27	chromatic	Hi all.
05:28	autrijus	greetings colorful one
05:28	chromatic	As your fearless leader said yesterday, I'm conducting an interview for Perl.com on Thursday.
05:28	ingy	I think .pm is fine
05:28	chromatic	Anyone awake in here is welcome to participate.
05:28	ingy	I think lib/Perl6/lib sucks
05:29	autrijus	ingy: PA01 I think makes it clear that it 1)sucks 2)is stopgap 3)will be replaced as soon as we have a coherent plan
05:29	buu	Hurray!
05:29	ingy	autrijus: let's make a coherent plan
05:29	autrijus	chromatic: oh, we don't do the interview now? :)
05:29	ingy	:)
05:29	chromatic	Yeah, but I'm afraid of ingy.
05:30	ingy	:p
05:30	chromatic	He has scary tattoos.
05:30	autrijus	ingy: can you do a braindump and let us SEE later today (or tomorrow) ?
05:30	autrijus	ingy: this is a complex issue :)
05:30	ingy	chromatic is skinny like a praying mantis
05:30	ingy	autrijus: I am a complex guy
05:30	ingy	er, girl
05:30	chromatic	That's why I'm eating extra ice cream.
05:31	buu	Why is everybody a girl in this channel?
05:31	autrijus	ingy: sure, and both your real part and imaginary part is wonderful
05:31	autrijus	buu: it's an ingy thing, not a perl6 thing
05:31	autrijus	chromatic: I think we can begin at any time.
05:31	ingy	autrijus: since there are no Perl6 modules to speak of... how about I just refactor around a bit
05:31	chromatic	Alright.
05:31	buu	autrijus: That explains it.
05:32	chromatic	autrijus, I know you're a busy guy. How'd you decide to start Pugs?
05:32	ingy	autrijus: I'll even wear the build system admin hat
05:32		autrijus_ has joined #perl6
05:32	buu	ingy: How many hats do you get?
05:32	autrijus_	(using a faster connection)
05:32	ingy	buu: 13
05:33	autrijus_	chromatic: ok. the story is that I hack SVK for many months with clkao.
05:33	buu	ingy: Will you marry me?
05:33		viirya_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
05:33	autrijus_	SVK works, except it is not very flexible. there is a VCS named "darcs", which is much more flexible, but is specced using quantum physics language and wirtten in a scary language called Haskell.
05:33		viirya_ has joined #perl6
05:33	ingy	buu: I don't love you
05:33	buu	ingy: We should stop disrupting their interview.
05:34	chromatic	It's not disruption, you'll just mortify our readers.
05:34	buu	(and or teach autrijus to spell)
05:34	buu	chromatic: Marriage is a happy thing!
05:34	obra	what's that quote from, autrijus?
05:34	autrijus_	quote?
05:35	autrijus_	so I spent one month doing nothing but learn Haskell, so I can understand Darcs. which worked well; I convinced a $crazy_client (who paid me to develop Parse::AFP) that perl5 is doomed because it has no COW (which, surprisingly, it now has), and fund me to develop an alternate library using Haskell.
05:35	autrijus_	(I mean "perl5 is doomed for that task", not "perl5 is doomed in general")
05:35	chromatic	Copy-on-Write?
05:35	buu	=[
05:35	autrijus_	yeah.
05:35	buu	Er, perl didn't have COW two months ago?
05:35	chromatic	So that's a "sort of has".
05:36	autrijus_	yeah, as in, sky suddenly worked on it and claims it mostly works
05:36	buu	heh
05:36	autrijus_	haven't checked the code, though.
05:36	chromatic	It's been in the works for years.
05:36	chromatic	Or "doesn't works" perhaps.
05:36	autrijus_	(I know. but not usable in production.)
05:36	autrijus_	ha.
05:37	autrijus_	but I digress. using Haskell to develop OpenAFP.hs led to programs that eats constant 2mb memory, scales linearly, and is generally 2OOM faster than my perl library.
05:37	autrijus_	oh and the code size is 1/10.
05:37	chromatic	Okay, so you picked up Haskell to look at Darcs to borrow ideas from for svk, then you convincied a client to pay you to write in Haskell and you started to like it.
05:37	chromatic	~convinced~
05:37	chromatic	What type of program was this? It sounds like it had a bit of parsing.
05:38	autrijus_	AFP is IBM's PDF-like format, born 7 years before PDF.
05:38	autrijus_	it's unlike PDF in that it's all binary, very bitpacked, and is generally intolerant of errors.
05:38	autrijus_	there was no free library that parses or munges AFP.
05:38	chromatic	~phone~
05:39	chromatic	Darcs and Haskell really impressed you then.
05:39	autrijus_	the algorithm did. the day-to-day slowness and fragility for anything beyond mid-sized projects did not.
05:39	autrijus_	(but darcs is improving.)
05:40	chromatic	Is that the implementation of Darcs you consider slow or the use of Haskell?
05:40	autrijus_	but yeah, I was impressed by the conciseness.
05:40	autrijus_	the implementation.
05:40	autrijus_	it basically caches no info and recalculates all unneccessary information
05:40	autrijus_	can't be fast that way.
05:40	chromatic	Hm, it seems like memoization is something you can add to a functional program for free, almost.
05:40	autrijus_	yeah, and there are people working on that.
05:41	chromatic	BUT NOT YOU
05:41	chromatic	Which is good for us Perl people.
05:41	autrijus_	not me. sorry.
05:41	autrijus_	anyway. so, I ordered a bunch of books online
05:41	autrijus_	including TaPL and ATTaPL
05:41	autrijus_	so I can learn more about mysterious things like Category Theory and Type Inference
05:42	chromatic	How far did you get?
05:42	autrijus_	and Curry-Howard Correspondence
05:42	autrijus_	I think I have a pretty solid idea of the basics now.
05:42	chromatic	Me, I'm happy just to recognize Haskell Curry's name.
05:42	autrijus_	thanks to my math-minded brother bestian
05:42	autrijus_	:)
05:43	autrijus_	but TaPL is a very information-rich book
05:43	chromatic	Alright, the pieces are in place.
05:43	autrijus_	I read the first two chapters in a relaxed pace
05:43	autrijus_	by the end of second chapter it starts to implement languages for real
05:44	autrijus_	and usually by that time, the profs using TaPL as textbook will tell the students to pick a toy language to implement
05:44	chromatic	I haven't seen you pop up much in Perl 6 land though. You seemed amazingly productive in the Perl 5 world. Where'd Perl 6 come in?
05:44	autrijus_	as an exercise.
05:44	autrijus_	so I started using Perl6 as the exercise. I think that answers the first question.
05:44	autrijus_	oh. p6 land.
05:44	autrijus_	yeah, I was not in p6l, p6i or p6c.
05:44	chromatic	More of a playground than a full land, but we have a big pit full of colorful plastic balls.
05:44	buu	"As a young boy, autrijus_ tried to approach the land of the p6.. but they would not listen and cast him out"
05:45	autrijus_	however the weekly summary really helped
05:45	autrijus_	well, because I keep hitting the limit of p5.
05:46	chromatic	It seems like an odd fit, putting a language with a good static type system to use with a language with a loose, mostly-optional type system though.
05:46	autrijus_	most of more useful modules under my name, (including the ones ingy and I inherited from Damian)
05:46	autrijus_	were forced to be done in klugy ways because the p5runtime is a mess.
05:46	chromatic	(You should see Attributes::Scary)
05:47	chromatic	(Total sympathy here)
05:47	autrijus_	Template::Extract uses (?{}) as a nondet engine; PAR comes with its own perlmain.c; let me not mention source filtering.
05:47	autrijus_	all these techniques are unmaintainable unless with large dosage of caffeine.
05:47	chromatic	Oh yeah, I fixed some of the startup warnings in B::Generate a couple of weeks ago...
05:48	autrijus_	cool. yeah, B::Generate is abstracted klugery
05:48	chromatic	Parrot has the chance to make some of these things a lot nicer. I'm looking forward to that.
05:48	autrijus_	and may pave a way for Pugs to produce perl5 code
05:48	chromatic	Yet you took off down another road....
05:48	autrijus_	actually I think Pugs and Parrot will meet in the middle.
05:48	autrijus_	where pugs AST meets parrot AST
05:48	buu	I thought pugs would get rewritten in C for parrot?
05:49	autrijus_	and the compiler is written in perl6 that can then be written on parrot
05:49	autrijus_	buu: no, in perl6.
05:49	autrijus_	s/written on parrot/run on parrot/
05:49	chromatic	Can ghc retarget a different AST then?
05:49	autrijus_	it can, but that's not the easier plan
05:49	chromatic	It's easy for me. I don't plan to do it.
05:49	autrijus_	the easier plan is simply for Pugs to have a Compile.hs that emits parrot AST.
05:50	autrijus_	which, I'm happy to discover yesterday, is painless to write.
05:50	autrijus_	(ingy and I did a KwidAST->HtmlAST compiler in an hour, together with parser and AST)
05:50	chromatic	Okay, but ingy will like this: retargeting GHC makes the full power of 6PAN available to the entire Haskell world!
05:50	chromatic	So I vote for him to do it :)
05:51	chromatic	Kwid and Html are markup languages?
05:51	chromatic	In this context, I mean.
05:51	buu	Kwid is the spawn of satan!
05:51	autrijus_	yeah.
05:51	buu	Don't let him convince you other wise =[
05:51	autrijus_	ok. so back to p6. p5's limit is apparent and not easily fixable
05:52	chromatic	It sounds like you wanted something more, and soon.
05:52	autrijus_	parrot is fine except everytime I build it it failed.
05:52	chromatic	Try running Linux PPC sometime.
05:52	chromatic	bleh
05:52	autrijus_	freebsd may not be a good platform for parrot, I gathered.
05:52	chromatic	4.x or 5.x?
05:52	autrijus_	5.x
05:52	autrijus_	(or my CVS luck is really bad.)
05:52	autrijus_	(but I'm talking about several months ago.)
05:52	chromatic	Could be. I would have said that 4.x has some weird threading things that have always driven me nuts.
05:53	autrijus_	true and true.
05:53	chromatic	Ahh, perhaps it was ICU.
05:53	autrijus_	two out of 3 times is.
05:53	autrijus_	I think.
05:53	ingy	averytime I install ghc it works!
05:53	autrijus_	yeah, ghc is very battle-scarred in real world.
05:53	chromatic	I guess it's too late to interest you in a Ponie then.
05:53	autrijus_	I was very interested in Ponie.
05:54	ingy	autrijus_: is http://svn.openfoundry.org down
05:54	autrijus_	I volunteered to sky about doing svn and src org and stuff.
05:54	autrijus_	but svn was not kind for ponie
05:54	obra	well, that was before svn 1.0
05:54	buu	ingy: Yes =[
05:54	autrijus_	ingy: it is. let me check
05:54	chromatic	Was this a recent test? I remember the initial pre-1.0 svn tests for Ponie were exceptionally cruel.
05:54	autrijus_	right. now it all works just fine.
05:54	ingy	hi obra
05:55	autrijus_	except libsvn_wc, but we have svk now, and I learned that sky has been addicted to svk.
05:55	chromatic	I keep reading the tutorial, but it never sinks in.
05:55	autrijus_	so 'tis all good.
05:55	chromatic	Now SVN::Client, I really really like.
05:55	obra	hi, ingy. I just spent the evening with a friend on $PROJECT teaching him searchbuilder, test::more and svk
05:55	autrijus_	I think http://wagner.elixus.org/~autr[…]/svk-overview.png may help :)
05:56	obra	started off the evening uncovering a bug in svk :/
05:56	chromatic	It appeals to me aesthetically, anyway.
05:56	autrijus_	but anyway. and the beginning stage of Ponie is XS hackery
05:56	autrijus_	which is by far not my forte
05:56	chromatic	That's a special kind of pain.
05:56	autrijus_	I've read lathos's book, so I can do XS hackery when forced to
05:56	autrijus_	but not by a volunteer basis. oh no.
05:57	chromatic	It's like doing magic tricks, blindfolded, when you have to say "Watch me push and pop a rabbit out of this stack. By the way, don't take a reference to him yet...."
05:57	autrijus_	lol.
05:57	autrijus_	so, at Feb 1st
05:57	autrijus_	when I was having too much caffeine and can't sleep
05:57	autrijus_	I didn't imagine that Pugs will be anything near a complete implementation of perl6.
05:58	autrijus_	I was just interested in modeling junctions
05:58	autrijus_	and some other nifty things like subroutine signatures.
05:58	ingy	autrijus_: I'm going to put YAML into core Perl6 :P
05:58	chromatic	There's a fuzzy connection to the back of my head about Haskell's inferencing and pattern matching being somewhat similar.
05:58	autrijus_	but thing quickly went out of control.
05:58	buu	ingy: You freak.
05:59	autrijus_	chromatic: sure. haskell has very robust inferencing, pattern matching, and sexy types.
05:59	buu	ingy: Stop polluting perl with your bastardized mark up languages.
05:59	autrijus_	which I'm trying to inflict on luqui to improve perl6's design.
05:59	chromatic	As long as they do the right thing with regard to roles, go ahead.
05:59	autrijus_	they do. :)
05:59	autrijus_	although I may need to question you about junctive roles. :)
06:00	autrijus_	and role parameters. but that can wait.
06:00	chromatic	I just have strong opinions about how things should work. Don't ask me how they do work!
06:00	chromatic	Yeah, parametrized roles are really cool!
06:00	chromatic	This was an academic exercise though?
06:00	autrijus_	yes. which leads to interesting kinding algorithms and rank-n polymorphism
06:00	autrijus_	yeah. it stayed as academic exercise I think for two days.
06:00	chromatic	"Hey, this Perl 6 idea is interesting. I wonder how it works in practice? I bet I could do it in Haskell!"
06:00	autrijus_	yup.
06:01	chromatic	You young kids and your idea of fun.
06:01	autrijus_	using it as nothing more than a toy language to experiment with.
06:01	autrijus_	initially targeting a reduced set of perl6 that is purely functional.
06:01	chromatic	Did you say "highly reduced"?
06:01	autrijus_	yeah.
06:01	autrijus_	but by day 3, I found that doing this is much easier than I thought.
06:01	chromatic	Can I get a "skeletal"?
06:01	autrijus_	the term is "Featherweight".
06:02	chromatic	What makes it easier?
06:02	autrijus_	Parsec.
06:02	autrijus_	and ContT.
06:02	ingy	mmmmm Parsec
06:02	autrijus_	parsec is like perl 6 rules.
06:02	chromatic	Parsec's the most popular Haskell parsing library, right?
06:02	autrijus_	well, Parsec and Happy
06:02	autrijus_	happy is more traditional
06:03	autrijus_	you write in a yacc-like grammar thing
06:03	autrijus_	and it generates a parser in haskell for you
06:03	autrijus_	parsec is pure haskell.
06:03	autrijus_	you just write haskell code that defines a parser.
06:03	chromatic	For everyone who loves C....
06:03	autrijus_	the term is "parser combinator".
06:03	chromatic	Haskell is its own mini-language there.
06:03	autrijus_	it's a popular approach, yes.
06:04	chromatic	I looked at the parser. It's surprisingly short.
06:04	autrijus_	when you see "blah combinator library", think "blah minilanguage".
06:04	autrijus_	and yet quite complete.
06:04	chromatic	Now I've also read the Perl 5 parser, in the sense that I picked out language constructs that I recognized by name.
06:04	autrijus_	very maintainable, too.
06:04	chromatic	Is it a combination parser/lexer, or how does that work?
06:04	chromatic	That's the tricky bit of Perl 5, in that lexing depends on the tokens seen and lots of context.
06:04	autrijus_	yup. it does lexing and parsing in one pass.
06:05	autrijus_	with infinite lookahead and backtracking.
06:05	chromatic	Does that limit what it can do? Is that why it's purely functional Perl 6 so far?
06:05	autrijus_	each lexeme can define a new parser that works on the next lexeme.
06:05	autrijus_	the purely functional perl 6 plan stops at day 3.
06:05	autrijus_	we are now fully IO.
06:05	autrijus_	started with say().
06:06	ingy	monadic?
06:06	autrijus_	and mutable variables, and return()
06:06	autrijus_	and &?CALLER_CONTINUATION.
06:06	autrijus_	so there's nothing functional about the perl6 that pugs targets now :)
06:06	chromatic	Does Haskell support continuations and all of those funky things?
06:06	obra	can perl6 symbolnames contain / ?
06:07	autrijus_	chromatic: yes. and you can pick and match the funky things you want for a scope of your code.
06:07	autrijus_	"in this lexical scope I want continuations"
06:07	autrijus_	dynamic scope, really.
06:07	autrijus_	"in that scope I want a logger"
06:07	chromatic	Performance penalty?
06:07	autrijus_	"in that scope I want a pad"
06:07	autrijus_	each comes with its own penalty, but is generally small.
06:07	chromatic	Can you instrument scopes at runtime too?
06:07	autrijus_	GHC, again, compiles to very fast C code.
06:07	autrijus_	sure.
06:08	autrijus_	&?CALLER::SUB works.
06:08	autrijus_	and $OUTER::var.
06:08	chromatic	Are you compiling it to native code now? I remember that being a suggestion a few days ago.
06:09	ingy	someone fix svn!
06:09	autrijus_	pugs itself is compiled to native code; it is still evaluating perl6 AST, though
06:09	ingy	pugs is suffering!
06:09	autrijus_	ingy: switch to svk! (or something)
06:09	chromatic	Ahh, I see.
06:09	chromatic	It's like Perl 5 in that sense then.
06:09	autrijus_	ingy: foundry is upgrading their server room
06:09	autrijus_	ingy: may take up two 2 days.
06:09	autrijus_	s/two/to/
06:09	ingy	oh no
06:10	autrijus_	ingy: we can set up a temp repo
06:10	ingy	sure
06:10	autrijus_	ingy: but let me do this interview first :)
06:10	ingy	np
06:10	autrijus_	chromatic: yes, it's exactly like Perl5. have you read PA01?
06:10	chromatic	I have.
06:10	autrijus_	cool.
06:10	autrijus_	so yeah. it's like perl5 now.
06:10	chromatic	Except maintainable.
06:10	autrijus_	the difference is B::* is trivial to write in pugs
06:11	autrijus_	and yeah, there's the maintainable bit. pugs is <4k lines of code.
06:11	chromatic	Very nice.
06:11	autrijus_	I think porting pugs to perl6 will take about the same number of lines, too.
06:11	chromatic	You already have one module, too.
06:12	autrijus_	yup.
06:12	obra	will you be able to port pugs to perl6 sub by sub?
06:12	autrijus_	and it's your favourite module.
06:12	autrijus_	obra: yes.
06:12	chromatic	Acme::Pr0n?
06:12	autrijus_	obra: as soon as the ext/ infrastructure is there.
06:12	autrijus_	obra: which was what ingy was working on.
06:12	autrijus_	it's basically XS for pugs.
06:12	chromatic	I've started a few attempts to write Test::Builder in Parrot, but I'm missing a few pieces.
06:13	chromatic	How far along are classes and objects in Pugs?
06:13	autrijus_	they don't exist.
06:13	chromatic	No T::B yet then!
06:13	autrijus_	6.2.x will do that, though.
06:13	autrijus_	but the short term task is to get all the todo_() cleaned.
06:13	chromatic	I see in the dailies that you are producing boatloads of runnable Perl 6 tests.
06:13	autrijus_	which will give us an interpreter that really agrees with all synopses.
06:14	autrijus_	at least in the places we have implementation of, that is.
06:14	autrijus_	chromatic: yup. thanks to #perl6.
06:14	autrijus_	I seldom write tests now :)
06:14	chromatic	tsk tsk
06:14	autrijus_	the helpful committers do that for me.
06:14	chromatic	How do you know your code works then?
06:14	autrijus_	I just look at newest todo_ and starts working on it.
06:15	chromatic	Oh, they write tests for those before you implement them?
06:15	autrijus_	yup.
06:15	autrijus_	it's all test-first.
06:15	chromatic	Okay, I'll let you continue then.
06:15	autrijus_	ha.
06:15	autrijus_	so yeah, the cooperation has been wonderful
06:15	autrijus_	camelfolks write tests and libraries
06:15	chromatic	It's really grown fast.
06:15	autrijus_	lambdafolks makes those tests pass.
06:16	autrijus_	if a camelfolk wants a particular test to pass sooner
06:16	autrijus_	then that person can learn from lambdafolk :)
06:16	autrijus_	things are easy to fix, and because of the coverage
06:16	autrijus_	there's little chance of breaking things.
06:17	chromatic	Have you started giving Haskell tutorials? I know Larry and Patrick have started to pick up some of it. I'm pretty sure Luke and Damian have already explored it (or something from the same family tree).
06:17	autrijus_	and if lambdafolks wants to implement new things that may or may not agree with synopses or p5 norm
06:17	autrijus_	then they learn from camelfolks.
06:17	autrijus_	I think I've read a paper from Damian that says he taught Haskell in monash.
06:17	autrijus_	it's before the Monadic Revolution though.
06:17	chromatic	If not Haskell, certainly something from the ML family.
06:17	autrijus_	right.
06:18	autrijus_	so, I've been pointing people to YAHT
06:18	autrijus_	and #haskell
06:18	chromatic	It sounds like you're attracting people from both sides of the fence then.
06:18	autrijus_	it indeed is. I get svn/svk patches and darcs patches.
06:18	chromatic	Is there a lot of overlapping interest? Where does it come from?
06:18	buu	ingy: You around?
06:18	ingy	buu: ?
06:19	autrijus_	well, every since the monadic revolution of '98
06:19	buu	ingy: In kwid, if you have a = foo; header, should plain text and such that comes after it be considered part of that block?
06:19	autrijus_	s/every/ever/
06:19	autrijus_	haskell people have started to do Real World apps
06:19	chromatic	Now that they can do IO, for example.
06:19	autrijus_	yeah. it's been only 7 years ago.
06:20	chromatic	There's still a lot of attraction there for real world applications, of which Pugs is one?
06:20	autrijus_	and recently haskell world has its native version control system; a perl-review like magazine; cpan/makemaker-like infrastructure, etc.
06:20	ingy	buu: headers are currently a single line
06:20	buu	ingy: Right, so they just generate a single block?
06:20	autrijus_	so it's growing fast.
06:20	ingy	buu: yes
06:20	ingy	a header is a block
06:21	autrijus_	and Pugs is a practical project :)
06:21	chromatic	You're devoting a lot of time to it. obra mentioned that you've cleared most of your paying projects out of the way for the time being.
06:21	buu	ingy: And where the heck did you put that kwid bytecode thing?
06:21	ingy	very practical
06:21	autrijus_	in that working on it has chance of solving real problems, and is very fun to boot.
06:22	autrijus_	and although p5 Got No Respect in general
06:22	ingy	buu: ext/Kwid/t
06:22	buu	How logical
06:22	autrijus_	p6 is very slick.
06:22	buu	ingy: Oh wait, I don't have ext/Kwid/t because svn is down =[
06:22	autrijus_	so the mental barrier is lower for lambdafolks to join. I think.
06:22	chromatic	The lambdafolks like what they see in Perl 6?
06:22	autrijus_	yup.
06:23	buu	ingy: Is it online anywhere up?
06:23	ingy	I'll paste it
06:23	buu	l33t.
06:23	autrijus_	I quoted abigail on #haskell a while ago
06:23	chromatic	I saw something earlier about access to libraries and such. Do you have a plan for the XS-alternative?
06:23	autrijus_	chromatic: yeah, ingy is working on it
06:23	autrijus_	ext/Kwid/
06:23	autrijus_	eventually inline haskell code.
06:24	autrijus_	and with luck, inline other kinds of code as well through haskelldirect (the haskell equiv of Inline)
06:24	chromatic	Is this within Pugs or Perl 6 atop Pugs?
06:24	obra	will you need to replace haskelldirect when pugs is is translated into perl6?
06:24	autrijus_	it's within pugs. the parrot side had not been well-discussed.
06:25	chromatic	Yeah, the Parrot AST needs more documentation.
06:25	autrijus_	obra: sure can, as long as it's running on GHC
06:25	ingy	buu: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/1976
06:25	buu	ingy: k
06:25	autrijus_	obra: now if s/GHC/Parrot/, I really have no answer, because of the lack of information.
06:25	chromatic	So, what's the eventual end?
06:26	autrijus_	And whither then? I cannot say :)
06:26	autrijus_	as you mentioned, I've diverted most of my paying projects away
06:26	chromatic	How about in the next month?
06:26	autrijus_	so I should have at least 6 months for pugs.
06:27	autrijus_	this month?
06:27	chromatic	Yes.
06:27	autrijus_	this month should see robust semantics for basic operations
06:27	autrijus_	the beginning of classes and objects
06:27	autrijus_	many real modules
06:27	chromatic	I'll do T::B then.
06:27	autrijus_	hooks to haskell-side libraries
06:27	autrijus_	chromatic++
06:27	autrijus_	chromatic++
06:27	autrijus_	oh and pugs hands out committer bit liberally
06:27	autrijus_	so if you want to do T::B, I'll make you a committer :)
06:28	chromatic	I'd like to play with it, but I'm writing a book right now.
06:28	autrijus_	you can start now actually.
06:28	buu	heh
06:28	autrijus_	just write imaginary perl6 code.
06:28	chromatic	Well, two, but one for pay.
06:28	autrijus_	and we'll figure out how to make it run.
06:28	cls_bsd	autrijus_: do we have "shift @array" in pugs?
06:28	buu	chromatic: Really? Which books?
06:28	autrijus_	most of the examples/* started that way.
06:28	autrijus_	cls_bsd: we have.
06:28	chromatic	Ah, I'll take a look/
06:28	chromatic	I don't want to announce the book yet. I don't think we have an ISBN, though we're halfway through.
06:28	buu	=[
06:28	buu	Come on. You can tell us.
06:29	chromatic	Yeah, I read the archives here. I know everyone'll find out.
06:29	autrijus_	I have this feeling that I have dropped some questions.
06:29	chromatic	I'll clean it up and send off a link to a preview tomorrow.
06:30	cls_bsd	autrijus_: but I have 'unimplemented unaryOp: shift' when I call my $h = shift @xs;
06:30	autrijus_	it worksforme.
06:30	autrijus_	pugs> my @xs = (1,2,3); my $h = shift @xs; $h
06:30	autrijus_	1
06:31	buu	Is the other svn server up or was that just a mirror of the first svn?
06:31	autrijus_	cls_bsd: try 6.0.9?
06:31	autrijus_	or the latest svn.perl.org
06:31	autrijus_	buu: the other svn server is up.
06:31	chromatic	Alright, that wraps it up for me.
06:31	cls_bsd	oh ok
06:31	autrijus_	pugs> my @xs = (1,2,3); my $h = shift @xs; $h
06:31	autrijus_	err
06:31	autrijus_	http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/
06:31	autrijus_	chromatic: cool, thanks!
06:31	autrijus_	oh. right. I was quoting abigail.
06:31	autrijus_	"Programming in Perl5 is like exploring a large medieval castle, surrounded by a dark, mysterious forest, with something new and unexpected around each corner. There are dragons to be conquered, maidens to be rescued, and holy grails to be quested for. Lots of fun.
06:32	chromatic	Autrijus, if you want to thank lots of people, send me an e-mail.
06:32	autrijus_	"Perl6 looks like a Louis-XVI castle and garden to me. Straight, symmetric, and bright. There are wigs to be powdered, minuets to be danced, all quite boring.".
06:32	autrijus_	I, for one, am happy for perl to move from the dark age to the age of enlightenment.
06:32	autrijus_	I think many camelfolks and lambdafolks share the same sentiment :)
06:33	cls_bsd	autrijus_: oh, My pugs is 6.0.8 :p
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06:34	autrijus	cls_bsd: that's ancient, stone age code :)
06:34	cls_bsd	:p
06:34	autrijus	ingy:
06:34	autrijus	14:01 <rafan> can you find ingy and tell him that YAML fails test on 5.6?
06:34	autrijus	14:01 <rafan> YAML 0.36
06:34	autrijus	14:02 <rafan> p5-YAML maintainer does not like to update unless it is fixed..
06:34	autrijus	14:02 <rafan> in that case, I can not update svk neither :(
06:34	autrijus	14:02 <rafan> thanks
06:34	autrijus	14:01 <rafan> can you find ingy and tell him that YAML fails test on 5.6?
06:35	scw	strange, pugs> 1 == 2 ?? 'a' :: 'b' works fine (returns "b")
06:35	scw	but pugs> (1 == 2 ?? 'a' :: 'b') leads parse error
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06:36	autrijus	scw: write an eval test?
06:36	buu	Gah, ingy, you are satan.
06:36	autrijus	??:: is currently badly hacked together.
06:36	autrijus	mostly because no-one is sure about how to do it inside the Rules engine.
06:37	autrijus	as the svn is down, please please send patches to p6c.
06:37	autrijus	openfoundry-- # downtime
06:37	ingy	buu: why do you keep saying that
06:37	buu	ingy: Because I'm trying to write a parser for kwid and failing =[
06:38	scw	autrijus: err, what is `eval test'? Like things under t/ ?
06:38	autrijus	scw: yes, and wrapped inside an eval
06:38	autrijus	like this:
06:38	buu	ingy: And it's more fun to blame you.
06:38	ingy	autrijus: host pugs on http://svn.kwiki.org/autrijus/pugs/
06:38	autrijus	is(eval('(1 == 2 ?? 3 :: 4)'), 4, "??:: in parens")
06:38	autrijus	ingy: will do when I'm on codefest place
06:38	autrijus	need food now
06:39	autrijus	had not have food since morning
06:39	autrijus	and it's near 3pm.
06:39	ingy	ok, sleeping now...
06:39	scw	autrijus: I got nothing # my $a = eval "(1 == 2 ?? 'a' :: 'b')"; say $a
06:39	autrijus	so, bbiab.
06:39	ingy	zzzz &
06:39	autrijus	scw: that is correct. that's what the evaal test will do.
06:39	scw	autrijus: Oh! to avoid pugs stop parsing?
06:40	autrijus	scw: exactly.
06:40	autrijus	there's no coincidence that eval() is among the first primitives :)
06:40	scw	hmm... And use todo_is, too :/
06:40	autrijus	exactly.
06:44	cls_bsd	autrijus: sorry, another question
06:44	cls_bsd	is it leagal when there is a subroutine abc();
06:45	cls_bsd	"abc().say;" will execute abc() twice?
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06:46	autrijus	no, it's not legal, it is certainly a butg.
06:47	cls_bsd	autrijus: ok, now just tell you that :p
06:47	cls_bsd	autrijus: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/1977
06:48	cls_bsd	example (error) code
06:48	autrijus	okay :)
06:48	autrijus	ok. food, bbiab &
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07:07	cls_bsd	How do I write "if ($text =~ m/\d/) .." in pugs style?
07:08	cls_bsd	Synopsis 5 seems not mention about it
07:09	cls_bsd	$text ~~ m/\d/ seems failed
07:09	rgs	is \d legal ?
07:09	rgs	in pugs, that is
07:10	cls_bsd	even $text ~~ m/abc/ failed
07:25	crysflame	do any of the tests indicate how?
07:25	crysflame	it might be ~~ //, not ~~ m// (but that's just a wild guess)
07:26	cls_bsd	of course I tried it:p
07:26	cls_bsd	my $text = "abcdefg";
07:26	cls_bsd	if ($text ~~ /a/) { say "hihi"; }
07:26	crysflame	heh, k
07:27	crysflame	which test covers that kind of thing?
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08:04	cls_bsd	there's no regex.t I guess
08:09	crysflame	oof
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08:51	autrijus	greetings.
08:51	autrijus	rules.t would be welcome.
08:51	autrijus	there's no Rules in pugs. yet.
08:52	integral	is there input from filehandles?
08:53	autrijus	I can code up unary = for you now
08:53	autrijus	if you'd like
08:53	cls_bsd	oh, rules.t is good...
08:53	Juerd	I think rules/*.t is more appropriate
08:53	autrijus	cls_bsd: there is some existing tests for PGE and/or regex in the parrot tree I think
08:53	integral	unary =?
08:53	autrijus	yeah, I agree, rules/*.t
08:53	Juerd	If we don't want CGI.pm-sized test scripts
08:53	autrijus	integral: unary prefixing = is readline()
08:54	integral	oooh, I couldn't find that. Neat
08:54	malaire	btw, are there backticks in pugs yet (or system, or something to get system calls) ?
08:54	integral	Do you have a ref in the synopses to that, autrijus ?
08:54	Juerd	Here goes every last hope of keeping it side effect free :)
08:54	autrijus	side effect? ;)
08:54	* autrijus	embraces side effects.
08:54	Juerd	:)
08:54	clkao	how's codefest?
08:54	autrijus	integral: no, it's p6l stuff. please yell at p6team
08:55	integral	autrijus: :-)
08:55	autrijus	I really want it documented. better, send patches
08:55	Juerd	The synopses used to be the most up to date, but Pugs put everything in much faster gear
08:55	Juerd	So even the synopses are hopelessly out of date now :)
08:55	integral	I'm not sure where it'd go though. Syn02 has one brief bit showing unary *, but A2 just says that filehandles are iterators; so presumably = needs doc'ed next to them
08:55	cls_bsd	autrijus: so where to get those tests?_? and can put them into pugs?
08:56	Juerd	One month. I see the evidence, but I can't imagine this much has been done.
08:56	autrijus	cls_bsd: just download aprrot
08:56	autrijus	parrot, even
08:56	integral	the shortest month too 8-)
08:56	autrijus	and look at compilers/pge and languages/regex I think
08:56	autrijus	integral: true
08:57	cls_bsd	hmm
08:59	autrijus	openfoundry is back!
08:59	malaire	cls_bsd: sometime ago I posted file with 700 tests for pugs to p6c, topic was "700 tests for PGE" (converted from perl5's re_tests)
08:59	autrijus	ingy: commit in your sleep! (or something)
08:59	malaire	err... for PGE not pugs
09:00	autrijus	oh! wow.
09:00	autrijus	malaire++
09:00	Juerd	mailaire++ indeed
09:00	Juerd	malaire: Is that portable to pugs?
09:00	Juerd	malaire: Or parrot specific?
09:00	autrijus	"Markus Laire"-san?
09:01	malaire	easily portable, as it uses perl-code
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09:01	autrijus	greetings whiteg
09:02	malaire	yes, I'm Markus Laire
09:02	autrijus	clkao: not much happening in #codefest-asia-2005 it seems
09:02	clkao	:/
09:03	autrijus	30 or so people in a small room
09:03	autrijus	not much coordination happening it seems
09:03	scw	0
09:03	scw	o_O
09:03	Juerd	Speaking of people in a small room...
09:04	autrijus	malaire: so has yoru tests been committed as part of parrot/pge/devperlorg?
09:04	Juerd	This channel has 58 nicks now
09:04	Juerd	That's bigger than my favourite channel, which has existed for over five years now
09:04	autrijus	your favourite channel being... ?
09:04	Juerd	ircnet #lol.nl, a Dutch channel
09:05	Juerd	(NOT related to the lol.nl website)
09:05	autrijus	ok.
09:05	malaire	autrijus: don't think so - I just posted the file to p6c. And I'm not 100% sure all tests are OK, When I posted it, 24% of them passed with parrot.
09:05	clkao	it's bigger than #svk too :p
09:05	autrijus	that sounds good enough.
09:05	Juerd	Our lol is dutch for "fun", possibly "laughing out loud", the site is "limburg online" (limburg is a province)
09:05	autrijus	and what's this svn://software.wordzoo.com/p6ge-test-harness/trunk thing?
09:06	scw	Is repository at openfoundry up to date? Different from the one at svn.perl.org.
09:07	autrijus	openfoundry is the main repo.
09:07	autrijus	I sync to svn.perl.org from time to time.
09:08	malaire	autrijus: IIRC, that is abandoned, might contain some usefull tests - (I can't find the message where that was mentioned)
09:08	cls_bsd	great
09:08	cls_bsd	http://www.mail-archive.com/pe[…]org/msg00127.html
09:08	cls_bsd	malaire++
09:09	cls_bsd	let me try it :p
09:09	autrijus	pugs currently does none of those :)
09:09	autrijus	so we need a skip_all
09:09	autrijus	but I'd very very much welcome we commit them to t/rules/*
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09:10	autrijus	malaire: you willing to take care of t/rules/* once pugs grows rules engine?
09:10	autrijus	(i.e. may I make you a committer?)
09:10	* scw	made his first commit :p
09:10	autrijus	scw++
09:11	malaire	autrijus: perhaps, I just need to learn how use use svn (I currently only know the 'svn co ...' command) to get the stuff
09:11	scw	autrijus: only three lines changes :p
09:11	Juerd	malaire: It's not much different from cvs for the basics
09:12	autrijus	malaire: sure. you only need to learn another command, which is "svn ci"
09:12	autrijus	and that's all :)
09:12	malaire	I don't know cvs either ;)
09:12	Juerd	autrijus: ci?
09:12	cls_bsd	svn co; blahblah svn ci
09:12	autrijus	ci == commit
09:12	Juerd	Ah, I used commit :)
09:12	autrijus	if you modified something you don't like, use "svn revert"
09:12	Juerd	Because that's what I was used to from cvs
09:12	autrijus	that's all, folks
09:14	* cls_bsd	downloaded parrot-0.1.1
09:15	malaire	cls_bsd: If the format of re_tests is too weird, I can easily generate those tests in any other format. I still have the perl5-scripts to generate it from original re_tests - and it can easily generate other formats also.
09:15	autrijus	malaire: you familiar with pugs's test formar?
09:15	autrijus	format, even
09:15	autrijus	the "require Test;" one
09:20	malaire	An example of this format:
09:20	malaire	# 1: abcabcy$&abc
09:20	malaire	# 2: abcabcy$-[0]0
09:20	malaire	# 3: abcabcy$+[0]3 # SKIP
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('abc', 'abc', qr/0: <\Qabc\E @ 0>/, 're_tests 1/$0 (#1)');
09:20	malaire	# 4: abcxbcn--
09:20	malaire	p6rule_isnt('xbc', 'abc', 're_tests 2 (#2)');
09:20	malaire	# 5: abcaxcn--
09:20	malaire	p6rule_isnt('axc', 'abc', 're_tests 3 (#3)');
09:20	malaire	# 6: abcabxn--
09:20	malaire	p6rule_isnt('abx', 'abc', 're_tests 4 (#4)');
09:20	malaire	# 150: (a)b(c)abcy$&-$1-$2abc-a-c
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('abc', '(a)b(c)', qr/0: <\Qabc\E @/, 're_tests 105/$0 (#109)');
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('abc', '(a)b(c)', qr/1: <\Qa\E @/, 're_tests 105/$1 (#110)');
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('abc', '(a)b(c)', qr/2: <\Qc\E @/, 're_tests 105/$2 (#111)');
09:20	malaire	# 174: (a\|b\|c\|d\|e)fefy$&-$1ef-e
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('ef', '(a\|b\|c\|d\|e)f', qr/0: <\Qef\E @/, 're_tests 123/$0 (#137)');
09:20	malaire	p6rule_like('ef', '(a\|b\|c\|d\|e)f', qr/1: <\Qe\E @/, 're_tests 123/$1 (#138)');
09:20	autrijus	whew.
09:20	malaire	commented lines are original lines from perl5 re_tests
09:21	autrijus	what is the qr//?
09:21	malaire	And the qr// part is a bit strange, as I just generated the tests in the format parrot-testing supported at the time.
09:21	autrijus	it's matching the captures?
09:23	malaire	yes, p6rule_like(...) is used to match captures.
09:23	malaire	Test-script uses:
09:23	malaire	use Parrot::Test 'no_plan';
09:23	malaire	use Parrot::Test::PGE;
09:24	cls_bsd	oh
09:25	autrijus	ok. I'm sure we can do a Test::Rules that provides stubs
09:25	autrijus	is qr// still perl6?
09:26	malaire	that uses perl5 syntax, as parrot-tests where written in perl5
09:26	cls_bsd	autrijus: so do you have a simple paragraph code of regex in pugs?
09:27	cls_bsd	such as ' if ($a ~~ m/abc/) { say "hi"; }
09:28	autrijus	there is no ~~ yet.
09:28	autrijus	but feel free to write tests for them :)
09:28	cls_bsd	ya, but I have no clues about regex in pugs
09:29	autrijus	there isn't regex in pugs :)
09:29	cls_bsd	oops
09:29	autrijus	please write tests targetting http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S05.html
09:29	cls_bsd	so 'ok ($k ~~ m/$p/, "Matched");' will failed
09:29	autrijus	see roadmap
09:29	cls_bsd	sorry :p
09:29	autrijus	classes is before rules
09:29	cls_bsd	didn't check it
09:30	autrijus	but I'm willing to be pursuaded.
09:30	autrijus	ok, I need to run for dinner.
09:30	autrijus	I'll go back with unary = :)
09:30	autrijus	bbiab. &
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09:49	cls_bsd	todo_is ( eval '"abcbc" ~~ m/abc/', 1, 'string "abcbc" should match pattern "abc"');
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09:49	cls_bsd	is it valid?
09:49	autrijus	you want todo_ok
09:49	autrijus	or, even better, abstract it away in Test.pm into todo_eval_ok
09:50	cls_bsd	hmm
09:50	autrijus	todo_ok(eval('"abcbc" ~~ m/abc/'), '...');
09:50	autrijus	todo_eval_ok('"abcbc" ~~ m/abc/', '...');
09:50	cls_bsd	ok, but maybe I should practice junction now, since I can't even make sure the regex is valid in pugs :p
09:51	autrijus	heh. :p
09:52	cls_bsd	feel good to be pursuing, huh? :p
09:56	autrijus	indeed :)
10:01	cls_bsd	autrijus: http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/1979 # how about this new test (also modify above test to show the description)
10:02	autrijus	look correct.
10:02	cls_bsd	ok, so this is my first test to pugs XD
10:04	autrijus	cls_bsd: commit it yourself bah :)
10:05	cls_bsd	autrijus: oops, I didn't grant a commit bit
10:05	autrijus	cls_bsd: you are a committer now.
10:06	autrijus	welcome aboard, etc :)
10:06	cls_bsd	ha
10:06	cls_bsd	let me try try ci
10:08	cls_bsd	Committed revision 1343 from revision 382. # so this is my first commit log to pugs
10:08	cls_bsd	also it's the first check-in log via svk XD
10:09	autrijus	=)
10:09	autrijus	cls_bsd++
10:25	cls_bsd	oh, ask anothor question, I found pugs.small.png on the web site, can I make it to my category icon?_?
10:26	autrijus	category icon?
10:26	autrijus	sure
10:26	cls_bsd	:D
10:26	cls_bsd	thx
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10:55	autrijus	basic file I/O done.
10:55	autrijus	as part of 02atoms.
10:55	autrijus	running regression now.
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10:57	autrijus	rehi.
11:00		malaire has left
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11:05	autrijus	r384:
11:05	autrijus	* Unary &prefix:<=> landed along with readline().
11:05	autrijus	* Unary open() can now take mode sigils as part of the file name.
11:07		justatheory has joined #perl6
11:07	autrijus	my @lines = =</etc/passwd>
11:07	autrijus	works.
11:08	autrijus	'out.txt'.open.print(=<in.txt>)
11:08	autrijus	works too.
11:08	Odin-	Oooooooo.
11:08	malaire	Does pugs yet have system() or backticks or qx// or any way to use system commands?
11:08	Odin-	Cool. :)
11:08	autrijus	malaire: no, but I can do one for you now. a sec
11:09	malaire	ok, I'm still reading YAHT, so I won't try to patch pugs just yet...
11:09	autrijus	you want unary system or list system?
11:09	autrijus	system("ls -l") vs system("ls", "-l")
11:10	malaire	perhaps list, but either is ok
11:11	autrijus	\\n Bool pre system (Str)\
11:11	autrijus	\\n Bool pre system (Str: List)\
11:11	autrijus	I'll do both :)
11:11	autrijus	done. testing.
11:14	autrijus	test passed. r386. enjoy
11:14	malaire	that's quite fast development :)
11:14	autrijus	:)
11:14	lightstep	what was r385? or did you skip it?
11:15	autrijus	r385 fixed a simple parsing glitch.
11:15	autrijus	=<$fh>; # was parsed as illegal pod
11:15	lightstep	is 3 releases/10 minutes the usual rate?
11:15	autrijus	=$fh, even.
11:15	autrijus	lightstep: not unusual when there's people requesting things.
11:15	autrijus	and r is revision :)
11:15	autrijus	not release
11:16	autrijus	775 tests now. mmm
11:16	lightstep	yeah, i meant revision, of course
11:16	autrijus	yeah. not unusual :)
11:17	autrijus	ooh. we have native dlopen().
11:17	* autrijus	discovers the System.Posix.DynamicLinker module
11:17	lightstep	when was the switch from fp6 to p6?
11:17	autrijus	within the first week
11:17	autrijus	I think day 3
11:17	autrijus	not very sure
11:17	* autrijus	checks journal
11:18	lightstep	oh. so te wiki page was misleading even when i first found it
11:18	malaire	Can you give any estimate how much is still to be done before v6.2 ? (just curious..)
11:19	autrijus	ah. the decision is done on day 3
11:19	autrijus	but not checked in until day 13
11:19	autrijus	day 13 sees the Eval monad.
11:19	autrijus	lightstep: feel free to update the haskell wiki for me.
11:19	autrijus	malaire: it's all bugfix :)
11:19	autrijus	I'm aiming for 6.2 at end of this month
11:20	autrijus	but no promises.
11:20	autrijus	I'd like 6.2 to be Correct
11:20	autrijus	in the sense that while there's unimplemented features, all implemented features have correct semantics
11:21	autrijus	in other words, all todo tests are really todo tests, not fixme tests
11:21	cls_bsd	nightly build XD
11:21	autrijus	:)
11:22	autrijus	lightstep: I'd welcome if you can just put a large notice on the FP6 page
11:23	autrijus	saying "it's all obsolete now, pugs is targetting the full perl6; while there may be a functional sublangauge in perl6 as a dialect, the current goal is to get the main perl6 done"
11:23	autrijus	or some such.
11:24	autrijus	nnunley: any news on the Galadriel front?
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12:15	integral	hmm, possible bug: ./pugs -e'say =$IN' gives hGetLine: illegal operation (handle is closed), but ./pugs -e'$OUT.say =$IN' works
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12:56	Steve_p	Galadriel?
12:59	ycheng	autrijus: I write a chmod, and use a "read" which make me unconfortable.
13:00	Steve_p	is that for a chmod function for Posix.hs?
13:01	ycheng	yes
13:01	ycheng	maybe I commit it first..
13:04	integral	Galadriel maybe is Pretty.hs?
13:05	Steve_p	integral, thanks
13:05	integral	nnunley was doing the Text.PrettyPrint hacking on that
13:06	Steve_p	ycheng, go for it :)
13:06	* integral	now wants to port ideas from that into a nice formatter for perl5 :-)
13:06	Steve_p	chmod is likely to be slightly different depending on the libc
13:07	ycheng	Steve_p: my problem is on type. AFAIK, read is to transform string to something else.
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13:08	ycheng	when chmod get an Integer, "read" seems to be unnecessary.
13:08	integral	hmm, maybe you want a perlish cast into a VInt, which you then convert to a haskell Integer?
13:09	integral	see int() for example maybe?
13:10	ycheng	integral: before this, a vCast seems automatically choose the type for me.
13:10	ycheng	I think it's a mechanism of haskell that will automaticall choose the right one for me.
13:11	integral	hmm, then you'd just need an explicit haskell type signature then?
13:11	ycheng	but this time, I have to use: read $ vCast v
13:15	ycheng	integral: I thought that in the beginning, but when I change to read to toInteger, I got a compile error "Couldn't match `System.Posix.Types.FileMode' against `Integer'"...
13:16	lightstep	vCast automatically selects an instance of Value (by type inference)
13:17	ycheng	lightstep: agre
13:17	ycheng	agree
13:18	ycheng	but it I remove read, the error message is: No instance for (Value System.Posix.Types.FileMode)
13:18	ycheng	arising from use of `vCast' at src/Prim.hs:139
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13:19	integral	can you construct a FileMode from an Integer?
13:19	lightstep	i'm not completely sure
13:19	integral	perhaps you need to do some work to convert the octal mode to a haskell FileMode, ycheng?
13:19	lightstep	nor am i sure how to convert Val which is a VInt to Int
13:20	lightstep	oh, intCast is it
13:22	ycheng	waa, intCast compiled !
13:23	ycheng	oh it works !
13:24	lightstep	ycheng, does it give the correct result when you pass a string to chmod?
13:25	ycheng	lightstep: chmod "1", "filename" still work.
13:25	* lightstep	never learned perl, so he doesn't know how perl's chmod should work
13:26	ycheng	lightstep: from `man perlfunc`, it shouldn't work.
13:27	ycheng	lightstep: maybe the spec of perl6 will be different.
13:28	Steve_p	The big difference is how octals are represented
13:29	ycheng	hmm, if I replace the "intCast" with "fromInteger $ vCast", the it compiles, too.
13:33	lightstep	ycheng, the definition of intCast is (almost) intCast = fromInteger . vCase
13:33	lightstep	s/vCase/vCast/
13:33	ycheng	lightstep: oh, yes.
13:36	ycheng	As far as I observer, toInteger transform anything it could to integer and fromInteger transform from Integer to whatever it could.
13:36	ycheng	I use to Integer for I think the FileMode must be something as Integer..
13:37	ycheng	s/to Integer/toInteger/
13:40	ycheng	I'll commit the "intCast" version latter if no better solution appears.
13:41	lightstep	most of the time any Num is good enough, and you don't need Integer
13:51	nnunley	autrijus: I've got Pretty working the same way it did. It just has to capture more of the AST in order to work correctly.
13:52	nnunley	autrijus: It punts down to Show in too many places, otherwise.
14:16	autrijus	woot.
14:16	clkao	autrijus: see #svk, win32 binary is foobard
14:18	nnunley	Hrm. Trying to figure out how to capture App String [Exp] [Exp] as a Pretty instance.
14:19	autrijus	nnunley: commit it first? :)
14:19	autrijus	so I can look at it
14:19	nnunley	autrijus: Ok... Let me do a little cleanup, and then I'll commit it.
14:20	autrijus	nnunley++
14:21	lightstep	is it a karma system?
14:22	autrijus	virtually, yeah, because there's no bot to count them (yet)
14:26	Steve_p	I guess virtual is better than no karma at all
14:27	* Steve_p	really begins his journey into Haskell this evening
14:29	autrijus	Steve_p++ :)
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14:34	autrijus	greetings, cogmno.
14:35	autrijus	err, cognominal, even. :)
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14:41	autrijus	hi marcusT. nice to see you here :)
14:42	* autrijus	ponders a URM compiler extension for pugs
14:42	marcusT	autrijus: hi... I haven't had a look on pugs in ages (I guess it was days, but your speed is so high) ... what's the state... when can I start porting Curses::UI ;-)?
14:42	cognominal	hi, autrijus. I curse you. I was on in the process on learning ocaml when you are now obliging me to learn haskell. :)
14:43	autrijus	well, the knowledge between haskell and ocaml are largely interchangeable :)
14:43	lightstep	does svn.perl.org provide cross-linked source view? or some other server?
14:43	cognominal	hopefully
14:44	rgs	hi cognominal.
14:44	cognominal	hi, rgs. how cooker is coming?
14:44	autrijus	lightstep: not as far as I know. I'm not even sure there exist a crosslink source view for haskell code. or perl6, for that matter
14:45	autrijus	marcusT: you can start porting now :)
14:45	rgs	cognominal: currently hacking some python.
14:46	cognominal	rgs: I said you, you should not listen that Eve girl
14:46	Steve_p	heh
14:46	cognominal	next thing we will hear of you, you will bite the Apple.
14:47	Steve_p	I would bite my Apple, but I think it would hurt my teeth ;)
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14:55	nnunley	autrijus: Well... It's in. It's not pretty, but it's in.
14:55	nnunley	Which is a bit of an oxymoron, but anyway.
14:55	malaire	I'm currently reading YAHT on chapter 7.6.2, and I've started to wonder if Haskell really is better than perl6 ... :\|
14:56	autrijus	malaire: hmm?
14:56	malaire	(Of course when we get Inline::Haskell that doesn't relly matter)
14:56	nnunley	malaire: Well, for one, it's fully specified, and secondly, it works right now. :)
14:56	autrijus	wawhat is 7.6.2?
14:57	autrijus	oh, the Show class.
14:57	autrijus	yeah, type classes are neat.
14:58	autrijus	sexy types doubly so; they let you think "higher thoughts" without going (completely) insane
14:58	malaire	If we ever get Haskell into Parrot, that would be be quite powerfull with perl6 etc..
14:59	nnunley	Hmm... Spineless, Tagless G-Machine to Parrot...
15:02	autrijus	sounds like a good project :)
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15:02	* autrijus	looking at Pretty.hs
15:02		rgs has joined #perl6
15:02	nnunley	autrijus: nods
15:03	nnunley	autrijus: It's mostly just a transliteration right now.
15:05	autrijus	hmm, ycheng broke win32 again.
15:05	autrijus	fixing
15:10	ingy	hola
15:10	ingy	what is new in pugs?
15:10	clkao	ingy: yaml bug!
15:10	* ingy	wakes up with big ideas
15:11	ingy	clkao: rt number?
15:11	autrijus	ingy: ext/kwid building broke on win32 5.8
15:12	autrijus	I fixed it; r3894
15:12	ingy	is foundry up?
15:13	ingy	autrijus++
15:13	autrijus	sure, it's only been down for a few hours
15:13	ycheng	@_@ broke again...
15:13	autrijus	ycheng: small typo mostly
15:14	autrijus	B[B[Bit's fixed
15:14	ycheng	^_^
15:15	clkao	ingy: 11296
15:15	ingy	autrijus: I have a decent comprehensive plan for module install/resolution fu
15:15	ingy	I will write up in the wiki
15:15	autrijus	ingy: whoa. write it down, write it down
15:15	ingy	and start hacking!
15:17	nnunley	Hrm.
15:17	ingy	hi norman
15:17	nnunley	What's necessary to get kwid to compile?
15:18	autrijus	nnunley: latest source?
15:18	ingy	nnunley: I need to add a Main
15:18	nnunley	ingy: Hey. How's it going Brian?
15:18	ingy	and some fu
15:18	nnunley	nnunley: Latest source.
15:18	nnunley	make[1]: *** No rule to make target `/home/dragon/play/pugssvn/kwid', needed by `../../blib/script/kwid'. Stop.
15:19	autrijus	ok, I broke it.
15:19	autrijus	fixing
15:19	ingy	hmmm. maybe autrijus broke
15:19	ingy	ah
15:19	ingy	haha
15:19	nnunley	:)
15:19	nnunley	Need more coffee.
15:20	autrijus	should be fixed
15:21	ingy	autrijus: let me fix it :P
15:21	autrijus	nnunley++ # cool, Pretty looks pretty now
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15:22	ingy	nnunley: should be fixed :P
15:23	nnunley	Now, to start working on the extreme makeover bit...
15:23	nnunley	:)
15:23	* ingy	likes extreme
15:27	nnunley	autrijus: It was a bit like pinball. I kept bouncing off of type errors, spinning off to understand the type error, repeating, until it was re-written.
15:27	autrijus	:)
15:27	autrijus	it's unlike pinball in that your score is not zeroed.
15:27	autrijus	what worke
15:27	autrijus	whatever worked, stays working
15:28	ingy	I like how ghc suggests how to fix your program sometimes
15:28	* nnunley	nods.
15:28	nnunley	All part of the joy of a good type system.
15:28	ingy	"You were close, now try this..."
15:30	ingy	http://www.burningchrome.com/w[…]ex.cgi?YahooImage
15:31	ingy	cdent++
15:36	nnunley	Hrm. I wonder how hard it would be to repurpose the shell in pugs to allow debugging.
15:37	nnunley	Kinda wish I grokked one of the tricks that the O'Caml folks did with their debugger, which allows backstepping.
15:37	autrijus	backstepping would not be hard in pugs.
15:37	autrijus	that will play nicely with serializable continuation.
15:38	autrijus	basically we freeze our CC at each step of evaluation and
15:38	autrijus	reload prior CC means backstepping
15:38	* nnunley	nods.
15:38	integral	after each evaluation you just call the debugger via callCC, and it saves?
15:38	autrijus	it will be doubly nice if we can have Exp derive Read.
15:38	autrijus	integral: that's roughly the idea.
15:39	autrijus	or rather, have "Eval Val" derive Show and Read.
15:39	autrijus	(which is the definition of serializable continuation)
15:40	autrijus	that will require some thought. will think about it tomorrow :)
15:40	integral	presumably they'd only be thawable within the same execution environment, eg open files etc?
15:40	autrijus	(it's getting late and I need to fill in today's journal)
15:40	autrijus	integral: well, one way to do this is to log all side efefects
15:40	autrijus	and reopen handles as neccessary
15:40	autrijus	see WASH for preior artprior art
15:41	integral	hmm, complicated
15:42	autrijus	yeah, all side effects are
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15:52	cognominal	rgs, I have bought "Concepts, Tevhniques and Models of Computer Programming"
15:54	cognominal	they say: "monads are used to encode state by threading it thru the program. This makes the program more intricate but does not achieve the modularity properties of true explicit state".
15:55	cognominal	This seem to confirm my intuition that monad is bullshit.
15:58	autrijus	right.
15:58	autrijus	using monad to model state is not interesting.
15:58	autrijus	the state monad is the most trivial of monads
15:58	ingy	autrijus: yo
15:58	autrijus	and you can almost always find better ways to do the same thing.
15:59	autrijus	however, for other things like CPS, lexical fix points in side effects etc, monads are invaluable.
15:59	ingy	I generate Config.hs in the make system now
15:59	autrijus	r0x0rs
15:59	autrijus	I'll sleep in a bit
15:59	ingy	Trying to figure out how to format it
16:00	ingy	I'm thinking of introducing %*CONFIG
16:00	ingy	since it is all lazy, I think it could be sold to p6l
16:00	autrijus	uh I think the perl6 idea is lots of readonly $?
16:00	autrijus	$?OS
16:00	autrijus	blah blaetc.
16:01	autrijus	instead of stuffing everything into a hash.
16:01	autrijus	so just add $?FOO symbols to env.
16:01	autrijus	with Val VStr
16:01	ingy	ok
16:01	autrijus	zzz &
16:01	ingy	darn
16:02	ingy	how to I expose Config to the haskell side?
16:02	cognominal	autrijus: is that a good book or do I have blown my money on a turkey?
16:03	ingy	Oh well, I make something up
16:03	cognominal	it sounds used often in university setting
16:06		lightstep has joined #perl6
16:06	autrijus	I've not read it.
16:06	autrijus	I recommend TaPL :)
16:06	clkao	that was a quick sleep
16:06	autrijus	but you can ask on #haskell for more book recommendations.
16:07		Odin- has joined #perl6
16:07	cognominal	I have yet to go thru the ~900 pages of that one :)
16:07	* autrijus	sleeps, for real &
16:19		\|hugues\| has joined #perl6
16:34	cls_bsd	ok, refresh source code again
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16:55	stevan	autrijus: I have found a really odd issue in PUGS
16:55	stevan	well not that odd really
16:56	nnunley	steven: Autrijus is sleeping. What's up?
16:56	stevan	ah
16:56	stevan	pugs -e 'my @l = (1, 2, 3); my $a = shift(@l); say $a'
16:56	stevan	produces 1
16:56	stevan	as expected
16:56	stevan	as does this
16:56	stevan	pugs -e 'my @l = (1, 2, 3); say shift(@l);'
16:57	stevan	but this
16:57	stevan	pugs -e 'my @l = (1, 2, 3); say shift(@l); say shift(@l);'
16:57	stevan	prints and 1, 3
16:57	stevan	it seems that shift(@l) is getting evaluated twice when it is an argument to a function
16:57	stevan	I am documenting this in t/op/shift.t
16:58	stevan	but I have actually encountered this before, I just didnt realize what it was (I thought it was my perl6 code :)
16:58	nnunley	stevan: Yeap. There's definitely some todos there.
16:59	stevan	nnunley: I will update shift.t soon,.. it will better illustrate the issue
16:59	crysflame	hi
16:59	stevan	howdy
17:05		ingy has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:05	nnunley	stevan: I guess including a todo_is on +@s to assert sizes would better demonstrate what's going on. But it does already demonstrate the double pull if you run the test explicitly.
17:05	cls_bsd	stevan: I've raised similar issue several hours ago :p
17:06	stevan	cls_bsd: yes, it was your issue which got me thinking
17:06	cls_bsd	oh :p
17:06	stevan	nnunley: good idea with the +@
17:07	stevan	cls_bsd: i knew it had seen a similar issue before,.. but I couldnt figure it out at the time
17:11	stevan	nnunley, cls_bsd: r397 has the new t/op/shift.t if you want to check it out
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17:12	cls_bsd	ok
17:13	cls_bsd	but we can bug autrijus :p
17:14	nnunley	stevan: Cool. Better bracketing of the problem.
17:16	stevan	nnunley: looks like this is the source of the todo's in pop.t as well, i will update those tests as well
17:22	* nnunley	nods.
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20:19	stevan	any lambdafolks around who are currently hacking away at PUGS?
20:20	nnunley	stevan: is only semi-lambda. Not currently hacking on PUGS. Hoping to get movement on the evaluation problem?
20:20	Limbic_Region	the only for sure lambdafolk I see here is tmoertel (who is also a camelite)
20:20	Limbic_Region	not sure if he is hacking Pugs though
20:21	* tmoertel	is too busy with "work", unfortunately
20:21	stevan	ok,.. well I just commited some issues with r400
20:21	stevan	and documented them in p6c
20:24	stevan	nnunley: yeah I found the eval issue and one with push and unshift
20:24	stevan	oh well, autrijus will likely be up in a few hours anyway :)
20:26		chromatic has joined #perl6
20:26	ingy	hola nnunley stevan Limbic_Region
20:26	ingy	hi chromatic
20:26	chromatic	Hi there.
20:26	ingy	you return
20:26	chromatic	Interview preview:
20:26	ingy	autrijus is sleeping fyi
20:26	chromatic	http://www.perl.com/cs/user/print/a/908
20:26	Juerd	My p6 talk slides are online
20:27	ingy	until about 6pm our time I would guess
20:27	Juerd	http://juerd.nl/files/slides/2005dpw/perl6op.html
20:27	Juerd	http://juerd.nl/files/slides/2[…]w/perl6myths.html
20:27	chromatic	S'okay, I'll send him e-mail.
20:27	stevan	howdy chromatic
20:27	ingy	chromatic: update the kwiki
20:27	ingy	Juerd: you too :P
20:27	Limbic_Region	salutations ingy
20:28	Juerd	ingy: This was FYI
20:28	chromatic	ingy: any particular page?
20:28	ingy	Juerd: FMI?
20:28	Juerd	ingy: For anyone's I.
20:28	ingy	chromatic: see topic
20:28	* Juerd	doesn't like adding his own links to wikis
20:28	chromatic	Any particular page on the kwiki?
20:29	Limbic_Region	chromatic - intentionally left in the mispeelings?
20:29	chromatic	Limbic_Region, yes.
20:29	ingy	ah, go ahead and make a new page
20:29	chromatic	<- lazy
20:29	* Limbic_Region	is the epitome of laziness, but I will let you be second in command
20:30	ingy	heh
20:31	Limbic_Region	Juerd - haven't gotten through p6 operators presentation, but have you considered a link to the periodic table of p6 operators?
20:32	chromatic	All yours now, ingy.
20:32	Juerd	Limbic_Region: Certainly have, but with the horrible internet link we had the day before DPW, I couldn't find it fast enough
20:33	Juerd	Limbic_Region: I gave up quickly and went to the bar
20:33	crysflame	hi, chromatic
20:33	Juerd	Limbic_Region: It was supposed to be the first slide
20:33	Limbic_Region	oh - will see what I can do
20:33	crysflame	oh, neat, hello autrijus
20:33	crysflame	(in writing)
20:33	rgs	salutations chromatic
20:33	Juerd	But I don't like changing slides afterwards
20:33	ingy	chromatic++
20:33	crysflame	"no COW"?
20:33	Juerd	I only changed some typos
20:33	chromatic	Hi all.
20:34	Limbic_Region	http://www.ozonehouse.com/mark[…]eriodicTable.html
20:34	crysflame	ah, ok
20:34	rgs	ooh COW :)
20:34	rgs	a hop topic in perl 5 currently.
20:34	rgs	hot, even.
20:34	ingy	I should add a kwiki notification bot to #perl6
20:35	chromatic	purl, COW is CopyOnWrite Oughtta Work!
20:35	Limbic_Region	oh - is purl and/or any other bots not here intentionally?
20:35	crysflame	it'd be nice if there was a list of the books that he ordered
20:35	crysflame	so that eveyrone who wants to buy more knowledge can do so :)
20:35	crysflame	Limbic: purl is too stupid to do multinetworks.
20:36	crysflame	if you know of any bots that can bridge irc channels, that'd be neat
20:36	Juerd	There's an irssi script that does that
20:36	Juerd	Irssi in a screen is as good as a bot
20:36	Limbic_Region	well, I know some neat bots on the freenode network
20:36	Juerd	In fact, I base IRC bots on irssi, because that works better than P::C::I :)
20:36	crysflame	Juerd: okay, since i see your name any time i google for irssi, it's your task to get purl in here.
20:37	Juerd	crysflame: I don't have a host to run such a script on
20:37	Juerd	And I can't get purl to join the empty channel that is needed for this
20:37	crysflame	Juerd: i do. plan for irc nickname "rhizopurl" on freenode.
20:37	crysflame	i can.
20:37	Juerd	Then you do it :)
20:37	crysflame	no.
20:37	crysflame	i can't make irssi happen.
20:37	Juerd	Huh?
20:37	crysflame	hand me a .irssi/ tarball
20:37	Juerd	apt-get install irssi
20:37	Juerd	Then in irssi, /script load somescript.pl
20:37	crysflame	okay, provide the script then
20:38	Juerd	scripts.irssi.org
20:38	* rgs	remembers the Abigail quote.
20:38	crysflame	that's your bag. i mindwarp purl, you mindwarp irssi. which script?
20:38	* crysflame	has a fixed attention limit thanks to work atm
20:38	Juerd	crysflame: I'm not warping any minds today
20:38	Limbic_Region	Juerd - in p6 operators - forcing context - your for numeric context - did you also mention it is no longer a no-op?
20:38	crysflame	aww
20:38	Juerd	crysflame: This isn't something we need right now
20:38	Juerd	Limbic_Region: That is implied
20:39	Juerd	It's a no op for numbers, as ~ is a noop for strings :)
20:39		chromatic has quit IRC ("back to work")
20:39	Juerd	A scalar context forcing noop, though
20:39	Juerd	crysflame: http://scripts.irssi.org/html/linkchan.pl.html
20:42	Limbic_Region	good presentation Juerd - when/where did you give it?
20:44	Juerd	Limbic_Region: Dutch Perl Workshop, last Friday
20:47	buu	crysflame / Juerd: What were you trying to accomplish?
20:47	Juerd	When, where, with what?
20:47	Juerd	And why?
20:47	crysflame	buu: getting purl on this network.
20:47	Juerd	Oh, that
20:47	buu	oh
20:47	buu	What's so difficult?
20:47	crysflame	irssi, and that's not at all
20:48	Juerd	purl's singular
20:49	buu	crysflame: Er, what?
20:52	buu	...
20:53	* Limbic_Region	thinks the yadda yadda yadda operator (...) should be renamed to the wacka wacka wacka operator ;-)
20:55	buu	Sounds about as reasonable
20:55	Juerd	Limbic_Region: I prefer "todo operator"
20:55	ingy	google++ http://www.kwiki.org/?action=e[…]D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B0
20:56	Steve_p	heh heh
20:56	Steve_p	I love the public service ad
20:58	Juerd	It has something to do with pyramids :)
20:58	Juerd	And the history of them, probably
20:59	crysflame	was this an irc interview?
21:00	nnunley	crysflame: Apparently. It included buu's comments. :)
21:00	Steve_p	Limbic_Region: most programmers prefer seinfeld over fozzie
21:01	Steve_p	:)
21:01	Limbic_Region	hmmm - I don't consider myself a programmer so I guess I am ok with that statement
21:01	Steve_p	heh
21:02	buu	Limbic_Region: What do you consider yourself?
21:02	Limbic_Region	a problem solver
21:02	buu	...
21:03	crysflame	problem solvers rock
21:03	crysflame	nice to meet you
21:04	Limbic_Region	salutations crysflame - don't expect me to be solving too many p6/Pugs problems
21:04		Chris62vw has joined #perl6
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21:05	crysflame	i was around for the first pugs.exe from autrijus, when it had nasty bugs with joints
21:05	Limbic_Region	Speaking of bots on freenode - Chris62vw has one
21:05	Chris62vw	perl6 sucks :-(
21:05		Chris62vw has left
21:05	buu	^
21:05	Limbic_Region	and there it is perlbot
21:05	crysflame	he left perlbot though
21:05	buu	It was my idea for perlbot, so yell at me.
21:06	crysflame	perlbot: status
21:06	Limbic_Region	heh - thanks buu
21:06	crysflame	perlbot: hi, chris62vw :)
21:06	Limbic_Region	perlbot karma for Limbic_Region
21:06	perlbot	Karma for Limbic_Region: 1
21:06	buu	perlbot help
21:06	perlbot	Syntax: (fact) :: tell (who) about (what) :: (who) > (what) :: learn (what) as (info) :: relearn (fact) as (info) :: facts (search term) :: shorten (url) :: shorten it :: search (module) :: docs (module) :: perldoc -f (function) :: math :: fortune :: flip :: host (type) (record) :: rot13 :: roll (die) :: tempconv (temp) :: scramble (text) :: 8ball :: slap :: diss :: what time is it :: highest karma :: lowest karma
21:06	crysflame	eeeee
21:06	crysflame	as soon as i'm not at work i infobot us
21:06	buu	What does infobot do?
21:07	crysflame	familiar bot interface
21:07	buu	...
21:07	buu	That's it?
21:07	rgs	perlbot, pugs
21:07	buu	perlbot pugs is jesus.
21:07	perlbot	added pugs to the database
21:08		LTjake has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
21:08	rgs	perlbot, pugs
21:08	perlbot	jesus.
21:08	rgs	perlbot, jerk it
21:08	rgs	well, maybe doesn't it support rss feeds;
21:09	buu	Er, of the channel?
21:09	rgs	buu: purl can register rss feeds as factoids.
21:09	buu	rgs: And do what with them?
21:10	rgs	display the latest "headlines"
21:10	buu	ah
21:10	buu	Feel free to suggest it to chris
21:12	crysflame	purl is a legacy application
21:12	crysflame	so much legacy that it's nearly human
21:12	crysflame	complete with a db of 460,000 factoids built up over time
21:12	rgs	how old is purl's factoid db ?
21:12	crysflame	pre-2001
21:13	crysflame	very, very old
21:13	crysflame	she was cloned from efnet database at some point
21:13	crysflame	around the Split, 97-98ish
21:13	cognominal	I suppose that makes me a legacy programmer because I am really human (with a flawed logic thoug h:)
21:13	crysflame	which means even older than that
21:13	* crysflame	nods to cognominal
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21:17	buu	Someone should open source the facts.
21:19	pjcj	I don't think facts is quite the right word.
21:19	Steve_p	heh
21:20	Steve_p	suppositions?
21:20	rgs	theories.
21:21	Limbic_Region	supposition theories - it isn't just quantum mechanics anymore
21:22	buu	The pretensions at fact.
21:22		lightstep has joined #perl6
21:23	Steve_p	But "jerk it" isn't much of a fact is it?
21:23	buu	It exists!
21:23	buu	There for, it is a fact. Some place.
21:24	sorje	Nice, revision 400 :-)
21:24	buu	Yay pugs!
21:25	sorje	The speed of that project really is amazing.
21:26	* Steve_p	was about to write "I jerk it; therefore, I am." but realized what he was about to write
21:26	rgs	it would have implied that purl is.
21:27	nnunley	r401: Improved the pretty printing a little bit.
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21:31	stevan	Juerd: the operator presentation is great fodder for writing tests, thanks for posting it
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21:39	nothingmuch	is the darcs pugs repo up to date?
21:41	nnunley	nothingmuch: Good question. High likelyhood that it's lagging.
21:41	nothingmuch	=/
21:41	* nothingmuch	will bug autrijus about it
21:42	buu	Darcs just isn't as cool as svn!
21:43	nnunley	buu: It's plenty cool. It's just earlier in its development cycle.
21:43	nothingmuch	buu - given choice i'd rather choose =)
21:43	nothingmuch	live and let control versions
21:43	nnunley	I'd be using it, except that it bogs down on my system even with simple changes.
21:44	nothingmuch	supposedly droundy is working hard on fixing that, nnunley
21:45	nnunley	nothingmuch: Good to hear.
21:46	buu	Is there any advantage to using Darcs over svn? And while I'm asking, what the heck is svk?
21:46	nothingmuch	svk is a meta vcs, afaik
21:46	rgs	this means nothing :)
21:46	nothingmuch	it knows how to wrap many vcs systems under one interface
21:46	buu	oh
21:47	decay	nothingmuch: it doesn't
21:47	nnunley	buu: svk is a meta-revision control system. It lets you work in a distributed way -- checkout, unplug from the network, commit some stuff, and then merge with the central VCS.
21:47	nothingmuch	afaik <-- grain of salt
21:47	nothingmuch	one that is heavy enough to hurt
21:47	buu	nnunley: Sounds like svn =/
21:48	nothingmuch	as for darcs vs. svn - darcs is distributed, in a very pure way
21:48	nothingmuch	svn is central, and sort cvs done right
21:48	nnunley	buu: It's implemented on top of svn.
21:48	nnunley	buu: It also borrows some concepts from TLA (arch)
21:48	buu	I .. see.
21:49	nothingmuch	darcs.net if you want more info on darcs
21:49	nnunley	buu: That is, it can remember your merge points, so you don't have to when you merge back in.
21:50	nothingmuch	the manual is easy to skim through quickly
21:50	buu	I just learned svn damn it
21:50	nothingmuch	once you know one vcs you know them all except arch
21:51	nothingmuch	;-)
21:51	nnunley	buu: It wouldn't take you long to learn svk (it has the same command set, more or less). Nor should it take you long to add darcs to your knowledge base.
21:51	nnunley	nothingmuch: too--many--dashes-in--commands for me.
21:52	nothingmuch	i learned a bit of arch once, but i got tired very very quickly
21:52	lightstep	but tom lord is so cool
21:52	lightstep	oops
21:52	lightstep	(that wasn't supposed to be in irc)
21:52	* nnunley	grins.
21:53	rgs	we have logs.
21:53	nothingmuch	buu - come to think of it, i would argue that darcs is simpler than cvs for example, which I know, since it breaks things down to more generalized bits
21:53	nothingmuch	and there's fewer of them
21:54	nothingmuch	you write files
21:54	nothingmuch	then you make a patch by saying what changes go into it
21:54	nothingmuch	and then you move it around
21:54	buu	nothingmuch: I'm still at the stage of check out, modify, commit, cry if theres any conflcits.
21:55	nothingmuch	darcs (and arch, and anything distributed) breaks committing down into several steps
21:55	nothingmuch	you commit a patch to your local repo
21:55	nothingmuch	and then you decide what repo to move it into
21:55	nothingmuch	example scenario:
21:55	nothingmuch	stable branch, unstable branch
21:56	nothingmuch	developer's each have their own repo too, for their working dirs
21:56	nothingmuch	s/'//;
21:56	nothingmuch	commits naturally go into the unstable branch
21:56	nothingmuch	and occasionally feature freeze or critical fixes propagate down to the stable branch
21:56	nothingmuch	the process is just saying 'put this change there'
21:56	buu	Head.. exploding
21:57	nothingmuch	chromatic is silly
21:57	crysflame	darcs is fun
21:59	buu	"Adolf .... elizabeth? Yah, that was his middle name!"
22:00	nothingmuch	does anybody care enough to have a look at a patch to Test::MockObject before I go to sleep?
22:00	stevan	nothingmuch: I will
22:00	nothingmuch	http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-MockObject/
22:01	nothingmuch	i'm not too sure about the naming convention i chose, for the most part
22:01	nothingmuch	and the documentation is also, eh, so so
22:01	nothingmuch	unified diff is at top level, modified file inside lib, and it's also a darcs repo
22:02	stevan	nothingmuch: interesting feature
22:02	nothingmuch	grazie
22:03	stevan	nothingmuch: looks cool to me,.. send it over to chromatic
22:04	nothingmuch	i did, he said he didn't receive, my logs say his MX accepted, blah blah. Anyway, he's logging on perlmonks once every few hours and sending a message or two, so i am not up to date on that
22:05	nothingmuch	i just wanted some review of the change before i go
22:05	nothingmuch	so thanks, stevan
22:05	stevan	nothingmuch: no problem :)
22:08	nothingmuch	oh buu, another nice thing about darcs is it's tolerance to PEBCAK
22:09	nothingmuch	most operations are easily reversable
22:09	nothingmuch	(unrecord, unpull, revert, unrevert, amend-record... =)
22:11	stevan	nnunley: you still around?
22:11	nnunley	stevan: About to head out for a few hours. What's up?
22:12	stevan	just looking the Pretty printing stuff
22:12	stevan	what's the best way to test that, or have you already tested it?
22:13	nnunley	stevan: No formal tests, yet. I think autrijus did, on the other hand, show what the desired output was on PerlMonks...
22:14	nnunley	stevan: So... two choices... write a test in Haskell (Check out QuickCheck), or write a simple script to diff the output against what's expected.
22:14	nnunley	Sorry. Gotta run... Good luck.
22:14	stevan	nnunley: thanks, later
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22:28	nothingmuch	in regards to helping pugs out, i guess i'll start with tests
22:28	nothingmuch	should I port perl 5 tests?
22:28	nothingmuch	write new ones based on synopses etc?
22:29	nothingmuch	what is the norm?
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22:36	ingy	hope the kwikibot still works :\
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22:37	ingy	hmmm. kwikibot test failed
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22:39	stevan	nothingmuch: I have been writing tests based on the synopsis mostly
22:39	stevan	nothingmuch: and anything else i find
22:40	stevan	nothingmuch: a number of the tests can be expanded as well
22:40	nothingmuch	stevan: anything specific in mind? that sounds like a good start
22:41	stevan	nothingmuch: you could try the new readline and open features
22:41	stevan	nothingmuch: I think they did them yesterday (taiwan time that is, last night for me)
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22:42	stevan	nothingmuch: autrijus will probably be up soon too, you can always ask him
22:42	nothingmuch	. o O ( I wonder why colloquy is not scrolling down properly )
22:42	nothingmuch	i will probably be asleep shortly
22:42	nothingmuch	i would like to it
22:42	nothingmuch	and fit in 20 minutes of bass time before bed
22:43	stevan	nothingmuch: I am going to get some food myself ...
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23:01	nothingmuch	i can't find the documentation for open
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23:01	nothingmuch	no synopses mention IO
23:02	buu	Larry posted some stuff saying basically
23:02	stevan	nothingmuch: the general assumption is that if its not mentioned, its the same as perl5
23:02	buu	$foo = open ("bar"); $foo->print();
23:02	buu	stevan: Not true in this case =]
23:02	stevan	buu: I stand corrected :)
23:02	nothingmuch	i tried tradition, it failed me ;-)
23:03	buu	Is open implemented yet?
23:03	* stevan	goes to get some pizza &
23:03	stevan	buu: per autrijus's last use.perl journal it is
23:03	buu	Hrm
23:03	buu	Ya know, I'm strongly considering using the dreaded xml for documentation
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23:06	* mugwump	garotts buu
23:06	nothingmuch	can i get a list of known function sigs?
23:08	mugwump	presumably from $($?PACKAGE):: or something like that?
23:08	buu	nothingmuch: Read the source!
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23:08	nothingmuch	gently!
23:08	ingy	ok, I'll get this bot working elsewhere
23:09	ingy	:(
23:09	buu	ingy: What does it do?
23:10	ingy	notifies of pug's wiki updates
23:13	buu	Great!
23:14	nothingmuch	eval '$bad = open "__inexistent_file__"';
23:14	nothingmuch	this doesn't seem to suppress the error
23:14	nothingmuch	am I missing something?
23:15	buu	try ?
23:15	buu	eval { }?
23:15	nothingmuch	not there yet
23:16	buu	No idea.
23:16	buu	Oh, how are you checking for the error?
23:16	buu	Are you perhaps printing the output of eval?
23:16	nothingmuch	eval { } is ok
23:16	nothingmuch	i saw eval '' all over the place
23:16	buu	as in, my $x = eval "open 'foo'"; print "done"
23:16	nothingmuch	so i sort of assumed
23:17	buu	nothingmuch: Did you understand what I just said?
23:17	nothingmuch	oops, sorry, missed that
23:18	nothingmuch	err, no
23:18	nothingmuch	i was not printing
23:18	nothingmuch	eval was in void context
23:18	nothingmuch	my $bad;
23:18	nothingmuch	eval { $bad = open "__inexistent_file__" };
23:18	nothingmuch	ok(!$bad, "bad is not");
23:18	nothingmuch	this is ok
23:18	buu	oh
23:18	nothingmuch	but tr/{}/'/s will not be happy
23:19	buu	So submit a bug about eval ''
23:20	nothingmuch	maybe it's notabug
23:21	nothingmuch	i have to be more familiar to make such decisions
23:21	nothingmuch	these have been my first 10 minutes pugsing
23:21	nothingmuch	buu: can you point me to the thread about open?
23:22	buu	nothingmuch: It was the 'perl 5 annoyances' on perlmonks. Meditations.
23:22	nothingmuch	gratz
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23:26	nothingmuch	hola L~R
23:26	Limbic_Region	salutations
23:26	buu	Limbic region!
23:27	Limbic_Region	. o O ( <sing>where everyone knows your online handle</sing> )
23:27	buu	Yeah
23:35	* nothingmuch	is trying to hack in a prefix unary wopen
23:35	nothingmuch	since open is currently (appearantly prefix unary, and gets no mode data
23:35	nothingmuch	and is always readonly
23:35	nothingmuch	i managed to get wopen to work
23:35	nothingmuch	but open doesn't
23:36	nothingmuch	i just duplicated open's 3 lines... what could it be?
23:41	nothingmuch	oi
23:41	nothingmuch	i think eval is a no op
23:41	nothingmuch	good night everyone
23:43	Limbic_Region	TTFN nothingmuch
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