Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:08 metaperl_ I got the Algorithms book by Rabhi and Lapalme
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00:24 metaperl_ hi cls_bsd
00:24 metaperl_ do you work for autrijus' company also?
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00:40 ingy mauke: can you help me once more?
00:43 pasteling "ingy" at 24.19.10.51 pasted "can someone look at this? I can't get it to compile." (23 lines, 685B) at http://sial.org/pbot/7959
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01:07 hoowa hihi
01:08 hoowa sleeping?
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01:16 hoowa hihi i want to rewrite module in perl6. does pugs support all perl6 syntax?
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01:16 rooneg nothing supports all perl6 syntax yet ;-)
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01:17 hoowa ???
01:17 hoowa poke
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01:17 stevan hoowa: pugs is not done yet :)
01:17 stevan hoowa: it is missing some very important features still
01:17 hoowa supports how much?
01:18 stevan hoowa: whats your module?
01:18 hoowa in pate
01:19 hoowa my pate
01:19 stevan is it on CPAN?
01:20 hoowa not i forgot my password on cpan.  i want to rewrite other module ini read ? md5 ? crypt::blowfish ? ......
01:21 hoowa i like crypt::blowfish, that one pureperl5 named crypt::blowfish_pp
01:22 stevan hoowa: Pugs is still in the early-alpha stage, it will not have enough features
01:22 stevan hoowa: but you can write help tests
01:22 stevan hoowa: or write some example code
01:23 hoowa example code ? about "helll world"?
01:25 stevan have you downloaded Pugs yet?
01:26 hoowa yes. but not installed.
01:27 stevan look in the examples directory
01:27 stevan there are some working examples in there
01:28 hoowa ok thank u.
01:41 * ingy is having minor monadic success :D
01:43 rooneg anyone else seeing this error?  src/Main.hs:159: Variable not in scope: `config_file_sep'
01:44 scw rooneg: make clean; perl Makefile.PL; make
01:44 scw rooneg: I met it five minutes ago :p
01:44 ingy scw++
01:45 ingy make purge is better
01:45 ingy btw
01:45 rooneg weird.  i had tried 'perl Makefile.PL; make', but hadn't done the make clean.  i wonder why that mattered...
01:45 ingy rooneg: it thought your Makefile was up to date
01:45 * rooneg hates make
01:46 ingy make is your friend
01:46 rooneg except when it's not ;-)
01:46 ingy just get in the habit of:
01:46 rooneg didn't you just spend like a day fighting with makemaker?  i'd think you'd be more in the 'make can take a flying leap' club at this point ;-)
01:46 ingy svn up; make purge; perl Makefile.PL; make test
01:47 ingy I like make more than MakeMaker
01:47 rooneg yeah, well, that's not saying much...
01:48 ingy make is actually very nice for what it does
01:50 lumi ?? Regression?
02:16 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
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02:17 Darren_Duncan I've got a Perl 6 language question that I haven't seen the answer to in the Synopsis ...
02:19 Darren_Duncan If a subroutine variable is required (not optional), does Perl prevent passing of undefined values to it, or does it only require that any kind of value or variable is passed to it?
02:23 Khisanth I certainly hope you are ...
02:23 Khisanth unless undef stops being a valid value
02:24 Darren_Duncan s/variable/argument/ - what I meant to say
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02:25 Darren_Duncan so it is valid for a required argument to be given the undefined value?
02:26 buu Darren_Duncan: At a guess: yes.
02:27 buu I think it just checks for *numbers* of arguments.
02:27 Darren_Duncan right then, I'll continue to test for undefined input values as I did in Perl 5
02:27 Darren_Duncan thanks
02:27 buu You could probably get away with something like
02:27 buu sub foo( $x is not undef ); or something
02:27 Darren_Duncan if that works, great
02:28 buu Not sure really.
02:28 Darren_Duncan of course, I still have to test array elements if they all must be defined too
02:28 Darren_Duncan I'll do the explicit tests for now
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02:49 Steve_p Hide?
02:49 Steve_p crap, hide?
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02:53 joejiang_ hello fayland
02:54 joejiang_ we have a channel at #perlchina at this server
02:54 joejiang_ welcome to join us
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04:19 autrijus greetings.
04:19 autrijus is the 6.4 bug still there?
04:19 autrijus mm shapr is away
04:19 seano 6.4 bug?
04:19 autrijus conflicting export of getEnvironment on GHC 6.4 on POSIX
04:20 seano import foo hiding (getEnvironment)
04:20 autrijus sure.
04:20 autrijus attempting a fix now
04:20 seano man, handling of my is incredibly wonky now...
04:21 autrijus it is!
04:21 autrijus I really need to sit down and get eval-during-parse implemented
04:21 autrijus shapr: darcs and svn.perl.org are both synced per minute
04:21 seano My guess is that it really should be a macro that can take either a '$var' or a '($list_of_vars,...)', and produce a lexicalization of those names, plus a list for future assignment.
04:22 autrijus shapr: I attempted a fix; see if you can get it running
04:22 seano Also LHS ternary broken :(.
04:22 autrijus yup, I think so too. can you write a AST for my()?
04:23 autrijus (or did P6C.pm already do that?)
04:23 seano That was a real eye-opener into how weird Perl5 is for me.  i.e. '($x ? $y : @z) = @w' correctly propagates context.
04:24 seano autrijus: I'll look at it, but it will take me a bit of time to understand how that code works, i.e. constructing a list-lvalue.
04:24 seano autrijus: and no, didn't do that.  There was a hack to get both "my ($x)" and "my $x" to DTRT with respect to context, but nothing systematic.
04:25 * autrijus purrs.
04:25 autrijus bbiab
04:25 seano What I really want to see is "my" completely separated from assignment, so you can then have some sort of kick-ass destructuring assignment like my ($x, ($y, $z, @ws)) = [1,[2..5]]
04:31 seano autrijus: why are "constructs" separated from "declarations", rather than all gathered as "statements"?
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04:34 autrijus I thought the magic that does binding is not my but :=-
04:34 autrijus seano: I don't know, I merely followed pmichaud and luqui's naming convention
04:35 autrijus it's just names tho.
04:35 autrijus not really reflected on the AST level
04:35 autrijus the AST level is just Syn and App.
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04:35 mugwump 71 nicks!
04:35 autrijus where Syn means special forms.
04:35 autrijus hi mugwump!
04:35 autrijus when are you arriving?
04:35 mugwump oh... I've got it right here
04:36 autrijus thomasyeh++ # pugs works on AIX
04:36 mugwump hmm, 21:50 on 23 Mar
04:36 autrijus good. now I can really deploy it to $real_work.
04:36 seano autrijus: re decl/construct -- fair enough.  re bind/assign -- it seems like they should always be the same in terms of how they tear apart the RHS.
04:36 autrijus that is something I don't know about.
04:36 autrijus I know := does the unpacking the same way as sub params
04:36 autrijus I have no idea what = does.
04:37 autrijus is it specced somewhere?
04:37 seano on AIX?  Poor pugs...
04:37 autrijus mugwump: cool. that's taipei time?
04:37 seano no -- I meant
04:37 seano no -- I meant "should" in the "ought" sense.  It would just be painful for them to act differently.
04:37 autrijus so it's just like := but destructive?
04:38 mugwump yes, taipei time.  I'll drop an e-mail too
04:38 seano Just like := but non-aliasing, i.e. updates to the lhs vars don't update parts of the rhs construct.  But I could be completely on crack.
04:38 autrijus my $a = (1,2,3);
04:38 seano note it's been >~ 1yr since I've read through the apocageses.
04:38 autrijus my $a := (1,2,3);
04:38 autrijus and it's synopses now :)
04:39 seano that one actually bites me, because I expect "@x=1..3;$x=@x;$x" to return 3.  Man, I feel obsolete.
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04:40 Khisanth 3? but $x is a reference ...
04:40 seano yeah, but not in P5!
04:40 * Khisanth notes this is extremely confusing :)
04:40 * seano is too confused to notice....
04:40 Khisanth hmm ghc actually requires perl5
04:41 Khisanth seems quite "circular"
04:41 autrijus yup. so it's bootstrapping in a roundabout way.
04:41 seano haha.  I get a kick out of how the functional-lang folks who tend to dump on Perl still use to glue GHC together
04:42 seano Don't get me wrong, Haskell's a treat, but the whole "we're so pure, you can't insert a print statement" thing can get tiresome (and yes, I know the GHC extensions get around this).
04:42 Khisanth by Perl can be functional too
04:42 Khisanth oops s/by/but/
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04:42 seano and sysfunctional!
04:42 seano s/sys/dys/
04:42 * tmoertel` thinks a lot of fp folks *like* Perl
04:43 * seano has yet to see them admit it.
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04:44 scw odd... eval 'my %z = 0, 10000; %z{0}++' makes pugs stop.
04:44 seano autrijus: re decl/construct, I guess my point is that they should all be "macro ...", with the macro controlling how the rest is parsed.  Kinda like Lisp.
04:44 * Khisanth still has to get a copy of HOP
04:44 scw instead of return something like undef.
04:45 seano scw: hashes can't be named 'z'
04:45 Khisanth I hope you are kidding
04:45 * seano should have added a smiley or something, I suppose...
04:45 Khisanth seano: with all the changes to perl6 that actually sounded believable!
04:45 scw eval 'my %hash = 0, 10000; %hash{0}++'
04:46 autrijus seano: I completely agree.
04:46 autrijus I also think the macro bit is not specced at all.
04:46 scw leads the same result..
04:46 autrijus if you can help getting that done, great; I think I'll punt till 6.28318
04:47 Darren_Duncan I just got back ... now reviewing last 36 minutes of log ...
04:47 jesse_ autrijus: what are you deploying pugs for in production?
04:47 autrijus jesse_: as a scripting language for OpenAFP.hs and PDF::FromHTML
04:47 autrijus jesse_: basically a reasonably complex DB2->AFP->PDF distribution engine that is powered by several REST web services.
04:48 jesse_ Wow. fearsome
04:48 autrijus and it's all on AIX ;)
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04:48 seano autrijus: help get the macro part done?  hahaha!  That's some major hair.  I guess I'd start by getting '$param is Expr' and 'is parsed ...' to work, then replace my, for, etc. by P6 subs.
04:48 jesse_ is now known as obra
04:48 obra yeah, I'm truly afraid
04:48 autrijus seano: that sounds good, and much more practical :)
04:49 autrijus but it's not as fearsome as what Dan did with parrot
04:49 obra hah
04:49 autrijus and its register-spilling monstrosity
04:49 obra Pugs NCI
04:49 seano The next two weeks will probably be a bit crazy for me with grading etc. for finals, but hopefully I'll have quality P6 time during spring break.
04:49 autrijus woot woot.
04:49 autrijus seano++ # in advance
04:49 Darren_Duncan FYI, I'm mostly finished writing my Perl 6 LKT now; still have a few things to figure out ...
04:49 seano autrijus: no fair playing the expectations game ;).
04:49 autrijus Darren_Duncan: wonderful
04:50 Darren_Duncan for example, with multi-dimensional structures, when an assignment copies just a reference, or the whole array
04:50 seano well..., I'm more or less comfortable with/resigned to the register part, but objects, mmd, etc. are just scary.
04:50 autrijus seano: let me up the ante and send you an invitation mail to become a committer
04:51 seano autrijus: thanks, but I'd like to at least be comfortable enough with the code to not auto-kick my own ass before doing that.
04:51 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I think the idea is "you can't easily tell the difference."
04:51 Darren_Duncan sure but ...
04:51 Darren_Duncan it would be nice to know when, if I modified a value passed in as an argument, whether the caller's context changes
04:51 Darren_Duncan I know that the base arguments are copied
04:52 seano One of the pains of 'is parsed' is that it requires fixing of the internal P6 grammar production names, and hence the structure of the grammar, since user programs will embed them.
04:52 autrijus *nod*. paste some example code?
04:52 seano I'm not sure I have a good enough idea what Larry's idea of the language is to do such a thing.
04:52 autrijus or nopaste, really; or post on p6c :)
04:52 seano brb
04:53 Darren_Duncan I'm looking for relevant portions in the Synopsis, currently I'm reviewing "Data Types" in #2 to get a different question answered re sigils
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04:55 autrijus greetings flw.
04:55 Darren_Duncan FYI, if you want to see the current state of the module, look under http://darrenduncan.net/p6c/KeyedText.pm
04:55 Darren_Duncan Ignore the SYNOPSIS, which isn't translated yet
04:56 autrijus cool!
04:56 autrijus "under the same terms
04:56 autrijus as Perl 6 itself."
04:56 autrijus except there is no such a term :D
04:56 autrijus (j/k)
04:56 Darren_Duncan for contrast, add a '5' before the .pm to see the Perl 5 version
04:57 autrijus ok
04:57 mugwump Do laywers care about chronological consistency?
04:57 autrijus probably not.
04:57 autrijus hmm
04:57 autrijus $message.msg_key~': '~
04:57 buu Release under perl5 terms =/
04:57 Darren_Duncan FYI, I started to consider using kwid, but then forgot where the detailed docs were
04:57 buu Darren_Duncan: Flee from the horror that is kwid!
04:57 Darren_Duncan sure
04:57 autrijus "{ $message.msg_key }: { join(',', ...) }"
04:58 Darren_Duncan I haven't worked out the replacement for join and map etc yet, if any
04:58 autrijus it's just join and map.
04:58 Darren_Duncan same old then
04:58 Darren_Duncan here's one ...
04:59 Darren_Duncan what's the proper way to know if a module or class has been loaded already?
04:59 Darren_Duncan I'll explain why I want to know
04:59 Darren_Duncan its re translate_message()
04:59 autrijus Darren_Duncan: it's doc/perlkwid.kwid at this moment, btw
05:00 autrijus well, defined() maybe? not sure
05:00 * obra watches #perl not get it
05:00 autrijus ask on p6l? :)
05:00 Darren_Duncan does p6l have a chat room, or do I use the mailing list?
05:01 Darren_Duncan FYI, I plan to translate as much as I can without asking too many questions, then commit fixes later when I get them answered
05:01 autrijus p6l has a chatroom, and that is here.
05:01 autrijus but the mailing list is canonical :)
05:01 Darren_Duncan sure enough
05:01 Darren_Duncan at least here, answers can be fast
05:02 autrijus yup. basically we formulate questions in an appropriate form
05:02 Darren_Duncan just answer the following if you know them without having to look up ...
05:02 Darren_Duncan 1. what's the p6 version of UNIVERSAL::isa ?
05:02 autrijus and made sure it's not one of the FAQs
05:02 autrijus then throw them to p6l for larry & co :)
05:02 Darren_Duncan ... actually, nevermind
05:02 autrijus it is .isa
05:02 autrijus $foo.isa
05:02 autrijus is always okay
05:02 autrijus unlike perl5.
05:03 Darren_Duncan my explicit parameter list requires the argument is of said class, no need to test
05:03 Darren_Duncan here's a different one I asked before you signed on ...
05:04 Darren_Duncan if a sub argument is mandatory, then does that prevent undefined values, or just that the caller gives any kind of argument?
05:04 Darren_Duncan In Perl 5, an undefined arg is the same as no arg
05:04 Darren_Duncan currently I assume that undefined values are valid and test for defined()
05:04 autrijus undef() ?
05:05 autrijus sure, undef is a proper arg.
05:05 Darren_Duncan ok
05:07 Darren_Duncan FYI, the only reason a few of my code lines are commented out is because the new // operator causes messed up syntax coloring on my text editor; they are actually valid code lines
05:07 Darren_Duncan I'll uncomment before commit
05:07 autrijus your text editor being vim?
05:07 Darren_Duncan nothing so geeky - its BBEdit
05:07 Darren_Duncan currently set to display Perl colors
05:08 Darren_Duncan Interestingly enough, it colors the word 'method' blue; I didn't realize that word was valid in Perl 5
05:08 seano Darren_Duncan: dude, Emacs runs on OS X.  Why wait?
05:08 buu Because emacs sux!
05:08 Darren_Duncan the coloring issue was a minor thing, and I *like* BBEdit
05:08 * seano contemplates war...
05:08 Darren_Duncan BBEdit is one of the best text editors there is, except for not being fully programmable, which I don't care about
05:09 Darren_Duncan very powerful multi-file search and replace features for one thing
05:09 seano Darren_Duncan: Having imbibed emacs first, I always found it was almost configurable enough for me to make it into Emacs ;).
05:09 * autrijus contemplates eclipse :)
05:09 Darren_Duncan I'm sure the colorer will be updated for Perl 6 soon enough
05:09 * seano notes that he will have plenty of time to do so as it starts up.
05:10 Darren_Duncan The editor is also fully Unicode aware
05:10 autrijus well it starts up in 2 seconds here... same as emacs :)
05:10 Darren_Duncan I'm saving all my files in UTF-8 format, in fact
05:10 autrijus Darren_Duncan++ # The Way To Go
05:10 seano Darren_Duncan: re multi-file -- true.  I wish M-x occur worked across files...
05:10 * autrijus stresses again that Pugs will not grok latin1 << >> or Y.
05:10 Darren_Duncan not just multi-file, but multi-file with regexes
05:10 seano Darren_Duncan: people who use more than 127 characters piss me off...
05:10 buu autrijus: Why not?
05:11 autrijus buu: because it's ambiguous.
05:11 autrijus utf8 << may either be a latin1 << prefixed with \xC2
05:11 Darren_Duncan Perl 6 is supposed to be natively Unicode anyway
05:11 autrijus or parsed as utf8.
05:11 buu oh
05:11 Darren_Duncan but meanwhile I "use utf8" in my current Perl 5 stuff
05:12 Darren_Duncan higher characters only show up in my example French characters that have accents, though
05:12 Darren_Duncan some parts of CPAN display them properly, others don't
05:12 Darren_Duncan but even when not, only those few accented characters are messed up, since utf-8 is a superset of ascii
05:13 seano autrijus: I'd give it a try, but I deleted it to save disk space.  The poor kids in the class I TA this quarter are all being forced to use Eclipse, so I've had to start it up a couple of times.
05:13 Darren_Duncan I'm not bothering with any Unicode encodings except utf8
05:13 seano In any case, I remember >> 2 sec.  Maybe my laptop drive's slow.
05:14 seano autrijus: re macros & grammars, S02: "Intra-line comments will not be supported in standard Perl (but it would be trivial to declare them as a macro)." makes me think something like this needs to be shoved in at a very low level.
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05:16 Darren_Duncan here's a Q: ...
05:17 Darren_Duncan My message.as_string() was a guess re sorting
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05:18 autrijus I'll bbiab.
05:18 Darren_Duncan Eg, if I feed %hash.pairs to map {} but want to sort it first, will a plain 'sort' implicitly sort on the keys by string value, or do I have to say that explicitly as I did?
05:18 joejiang has joined #perl6
05:18 Darren_Duncan ... using sort { $a.key cmp $b.key }
05:19 arcady I think you have to sort them explicitly
05:19 seano Darren_Duncan: I guess the question is what 'infix:cmp(Pair, Pair)' does
05:19 Darren_Duncan well, that seems safer for now
05:19 Darren_Duncan seano, yes
05:19 seano So brutally define it to your will :).
05:19 Darren_Duncan sort of
05:20 Darren_Duncan assuming that $a cmp $b is what sort does implicitly
05:20 Darren_Duncan all the time
05:21 seano There was a thread awhile back on P6L on which comparison -- <=>, cmp, or something else -- is used by default between objects.  I don't think there was a resolution then, but maybe since...
05:21 PerlJam I think you mean $^a and $^b there as $a and $b don't magically appear
05:21 Darren_Duncan er, yes, if that's the new names of those variables
05:22 arcady it's the new implicit variable syntax thingy
05:22 Darren_Duncan I changed my code to use that
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05:29 Darren_Duncan I just noticed the .as() method in Perl data types; I could use that instead of manual joining ...
05:31 Darren_Duncan the .perl() method also looks cool ... it could possibly replace the likes of Data::Dumper
05:31 PerlJam not possibly, definitely.
05:33 PerlJam well, probably with a little help to traverse the data structure if .perl() doesn't do that by default.
05:34 Darren_Duncan .perl() at least handles arrays and hashes of one dimension
05:39 PerlJam I like as :lang<perl> though as at least other languages can add their own as-handlers
05:41 arcady that doesn't seem too useful though
05:41 Darren_Duncan Oh, oh, S02 answered my question ...
05:41 Darren_Duncan "Sorting a list of pairs should sort on their keys by default."
05:41 Darren_Duncan so that takes care of that
05:41 PerlJam arcady: why not?
05:42 arcady because how does any other language deal with things like $foo vs. @foo and so on?
05:42 arcady unless I completely misunderstand the issue
05:43 PerlJam arcady: other languages are free to deal with those as best they can :)
05:44 arcady well, you can just write a module to dump to whatever format
05:44 arcady and in 99% of cases, you'd be using as :lang<perl> anyway
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05:47 PerlJam I suppose the exact form the feature takes doesn't matter too terribly much.
05:47 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
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05:48 arcady feel free to write the module, if you want it so badly : )
05:49 theorbtwo Mornin, all.
05:49 PerlJam $some_big_data_structure but= python_representation_role;  say $some_big_data_structure.python;
05:51 arcady I wonder how you'd serialize functions then
05:52 Darren_Duncan Mornin, one
05:52 theorbtwo src/Main.hs:159: Variable not in scope: `config_file_sep' ?
05:55 PerlJam arcady: parrot byte code.
05:55 PerlJam arcady: then you use your handy-dandy parrot-to-<insert language> translator to get the appropriate language representation.
05:57 ingy ola
05:57 ingy hola even
05:57 ingy theorbtwo: make purge
05:57 ingy silly rabbit
05:58 ingy autrijus: I learned a bit about monads today
05:59 PerlJam ingy: enough to build a perl6 rules parser?  ;)
06:00 Darren_Duncan I could use a bit of that
06:00 Darren_Duncan though only very basic regexps in my current mod
06:00 Darren_Duncan sorry, "rules"
06:00 PerlJam Darren_Duncan: for those modules you mentioned on p6c?  (or was it p6l?)
06:01 Darren_Duncan I haven't written anything to p6l ...
06:01 Darren_Duncan All the modules I mentioned on p6c have fairly basic regexps, if any ...
06:02 Darren_Duncan in SQL::Routine, I think I only use them to test if input looks like a number
06:02 Darren_Duncan more specifically, test if its anything except an integer
06:02 Darren_Duncan a positive integer
06:02 theorbtwo That fixed it, ingy, sorry.  So what dependency are we missing?  Makefile.PL wasn't modified, which is the usual culprit...
06:03 Darren_Duncan In Locale::KeyedText, 2 uses;
06:03 tmoertel` is the darcs repo up to date?
06:03 Darren_Duncan 1. see if it has any non-alphanumerics
06:03 Darren_Duncan 2. replace one literal with another
06:04 Darren_Duncan the latter each being defined in scalar vars
06:04 Darren_Duncan no fancy lookahead or lookback or whatever stuff
06:04 theorbtwo Oh, presumably util/PugsConfig.pm.
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06:07 Darren_Duncan Here's a Q that's strictly about optimization ...
06:07 ingy theorbtwo: Makefile.PL and util/PugsConfig.pm generate src/Config.hs
06:07 Darren_Duncan I put most of my code at the top of my module, and most pod at the bottom, with a __END__ in between, so the parser stops there and doesn't waste time below, and I have lots of POD ... is this sort of thing useful with perl 6?
06:08 PerlJam Darren_Duncan: perl6 doesn't grok __END__.  That's changed to =begin DATA
06:08 Darren_Duncan If I stick a "=begin END" (the perl 6 equiv) above all my pod, will that make Pugs compile it faster?
06:08 ingy Darren_Duncan: I think that's an unnecessary optimization
06:09 Darren_Duncan okay, out it goes
06:09 ingy not worth talking about
06:09 Darren_Duncan I won't bring it up again
06:12 * PerlJam sleep &
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06:18 theorbtwo Hmmpf, what's the URL for this pastebot?
06:20 ingy perlbot: nopaste?
06:23 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
06:23 ingy theorbtwo: ^^
06:23 * Aankhen`` considers whining about how he wants #perl6 to view things.
06:23 Khisanth that should probably be http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
06:23 Khisanth or the output will end up in the wrong chan :)
06:23 pasteling "theorbtwo" at 84.245.186.254 pasted "Makefile.PL patch for dependency on util/PugsConfig.pm, and -O3 on build while I'm at it." (18 lines, 729B) at http://sial.org/pbot/7966
06:23 theorbtwo Thanks.
06:23 theorbtwo I did ask pastebot for help, in my defense, but it was not very forthcoming about it.
06:26 tmoertel` is Main.hs being hacked on right now?
06:26 ingy tmoertel`: I am hacking on it heavily
06:26 ingy why?
06:27 tmoertel` I was going to take a cleanup pass at it
06:27 ingy pleas wait
06:27 obra    hey ingy
06:27 tmoertel` no problem
06:27 ingy hi obra
06:27 ingy once I get the test harness working again, it's all yours
06:29 theorbtwo Anybody have time to review that patch?  It's pretty trivial.
06:31 * tmoertel` didn't know GHC had an -O3 optimization level
06:31 theorbtwo Aye.  I haven't benchmarked, but it certianly feels like it does a 'make test' run much faster.
06:32 tmoertel` theorbtwo: faster than -O2?  -O2 rarely is faster than plain -O in my experience, but -O is much faster than w/o any opts
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06:33 tmoertel` it looks like GHC takes any optimization level (-O9999 works)
06:33 theorbtwo I haven't tried comparing the various -O levels; will do that now.
06:34 tmoertel` I don't think anything beyond -O2 is implemented in the compiler
06:35 scw wow, the compilation is really slow with -O3
06:37 scw but takes only 1 second to generate each generation in life.p6, which took 6 seconds before.
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06:41 hoowa hi autrijus
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06:51 theorbtwo Hm, surprising -- my measurements say that no -O option is actually faster then -O1 or -O2 for a complete make all test cycle.
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06:55 Darren_Duncan question: if I wanted to create an alias for a package name, do I use "let" or "::=" or do something else; eg "let Message be Locale::KeyedText::Message"?
06:56 Darren_Duncan reverse last 2 operands in example
06:56 Darren_Duncan I don't want to create a new class
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06:58 Darren_Duncan I'll try the "::=" that aliases variables and see how that goes
06:58 Darren_Duncan or skip it
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07:12 ingy tmoertel`: I am close to checking  in Main.hs
07:12 ingy tmoertel`: are you a lambdafolk?
07:13 ingy KwikPoll: Who here uses OS X?
07:13 flw has joined #perl6
07:13 theorbtwo 0;
07:15 ingy theorbtwo: no mac?
07:15 theorbtwo No mac.
07:15 ingy it would be cool to work with someone like tmoertel` using SubEthaEdit
07:16 theorbtwo SubEthaEdit sounds interesting.  I, of course, am not somebody like tmoerel`.
07:16 ingy perl people pairing up with haskell people
07:16 theorbtwo Hell, I'm stuck on exercise 3.10 of YAHT at the moment.
07:17 Darren_Duncan okay, I'm going to commit the first Locale::KeyedText for perl 6 now.  doubtless it has bugs, but it should be at least 90% correct
07:17 ingy Darren_Duncan: as long as it's in modules
07:17 Darren_Duncan It is in modules; I followed the example of Sample-Module
07:17 ingy coolness
07:24 Darren_Duncan quick question; I forgot to use the command-line option to spec a commit message, so was dumped into Vim; I wrote a message there, but what is the keystroke to save and quit Vim?
07:24 scw :wq
07:25 Darren_Duncan clarify that; what does ":" mean?
07:25 Darren_Duncan ctrl-:?
07:25 scw Err, after pressed <esc>
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07:26 Darren_Duncan that seems to have done it, thanks
07:26 nothingmuch morning
07:26 Darren_Duncan morning nothing
07:27 Darren_Duncan I just committed the first LKT a few seconds ago; update to see it
07:27 Darren_Duncan I haven't tried compiling it of course, but it should be 90% correct
07:27 Darren_Duncan its in /modules
07:28 scw nothingmuch: Hello, several tests in not.t, auto.t and assign.t failed, how about using todo_* ?
07:28 nothingmuch i didn't change not.t
07:28 nothingmuch and luqui untodoed some tests
07:28 nothingmuch he said since they were bugs, and not unimplemented features, they should not be todo
07:29 nothingmuch auto.t is not mine either
07:31 nothingmuch sorry, back
07:31 nothingmuch http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project​/Source/index.html/pugs/revision/?rev=512
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07:38 scw oh, I didn't see the commit log :)
07:40 nothingmuch i agree with him in theory
07:40 nothingmuch but i think it confuses users
07:40 nothingmuch i.e. "what's wrong? i get pugs 6.0.11 and tests failed!"
07:40 nothingmuch but then again, bugs *are* bugs
07:42 autrijus fwiw, I think luqui is right.
07:42 autrijus tests should never fail to compile, though.
07:42 autrijus and before a release I'll TODO all the failing tests
07:42 nothingmuch on that i agree
07:42 autrijus but inbetween releases, it's okay to have tests failing on trunk
07:42 ingy autrijus: want to see pair with me?
07:43 autrijus not yet, at $client's placed
07:43 autrijus and using their computer
07:43 * autrijus is trying to get gpg running on AIX.
07:43 ingy ok
07:43 * nothingmuch wouldn't mind joining a see session
07:43 autrijus you can pair with nothingmuch :)
07:43 nothingmuch i'd like to see what you guys do
07:43 ingy autrijus: yuck
07:43 nothingmuch not that i'd know how to do anything ;-)
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07:43 nothingmuch aix... oh my
07:43 nothingmuch which reminds me
07:44 ingy big patch to Main.hs incoming...
07:44 autrijus woot.
07:44 nothingmuch i can try and compile pugs on aix, hpux, solaris, and osf when that box comes back to life
07:44 autrijus nice. aix is known to work.
07:44 nothingmuch given GHC on those platforms
07:44 autrijus but GHC is notoriously portable
07:44 autrijus so we don't have a pressing need
07:44 nothingmuch so we actually don't worry about it
07:44 nothingmuch ok
07:44 nothingmuch All the same for me =)
07:46 nothingmuch ingy: mention my name in chat or something if you are starting see and don't mind me joining. that way i get a colloquy bubble. i'm going to do some real work now that i've eaten and stuff
07:46 ingy nothingmuch: sure
07:46 ingy nothingmuch: so you have OS X?
07:46 nothingmuch uhuh
07:46 nothingmuch so does lumi
07:47 ingy that's 4 so far
07:47 nothingmuch he just started and might enjoy see as well
07:47 ingy we should keep a list
07:47 nothingmuch but he starts work at around 11:00, so he's not up yet
07:47 nothingmuch i think there's more
07:47 ingy nothingmuch: what tz are you?
07:47 nothingmuch Israel
07:47 ingy cool
07:48 ingy I have a friend there
07:48 ingy the inventor of yaml
07:48 ingy so i am used to that particular tz
07:48 nothingmuch but normally i'm in sync with europe central as far as getting up, and greenland as far as going to bed
07:48 ingy for pairing
07:48 nothingmuch i saw on the website
07:48 nothingmuch didn't know he was from israel though
07:49 nothingmuch many israeli's or people with jewish names live in NA
07:49 ingy Oren Ben-Kiki
07:49 ingy I almost wrote Oren Ben-Kwiki
07:49 nothingmuch hah
07:49 ingy Oren and i went skiing in Canada this winter
07:50 nothingmuch skiing... mmmm
07:50 ingy his son and ex-wife live near me
07:50 nothingmuch been too long
07:50 nothingmuch a bit more than a year since I last went
07:50 ingy he is a genius imo
07:50 nothingmuch where do you live?
07:50 ingy Seattle
07:50 nothingmuch is he a perl guy?
07:50 ingy not really
07:50 nothingmuch i don't recall his named being mentioned otherwise than in YAML context
07:50 nothingmuch ah, that explains it =)
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07:51 autrijus I see the name "Oren" and I keep having flashbacks from the Kill Bill movie...
07:51 nothingmuch o-ren
07:51 nothingmuch sort of
07:51 * ingy can't wait to write a perl6 yaml parser in haskell
07:51 nothingmuch the pronounciation of Oren is much less detaché
07:52 ingy tmoertel`: Main.hs checked in
07:52 ingy hmmm. I bet I broke Pugs::MakeMaker
07:52 ingy I need tests :P
07:52 nothingmuch i'm creating OSXPeople on pugs.kwiki.org
07:52 clkao ingy: svk didn't treat you well?
07:53 ingy clkao: I love you
07:53 ingy clkao: we can hack the hateful svk in Taiwan
07:53 clkao right
07:53 ingy and maybe the more hateful YAML.pm
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08:02 Darren_Duncan since this was going around 10 mins ago -- I use Mac OS X, I live in Canada, and tz -800
08:05 Darren_Duncan its midnight here now
08:05 Darren_Duncan oh, the Perl 6 summaries just came out
08:05 thesaboteur heh im unfortunately on mac os x as well
08:05 thesaboteur I also unfortunately am south of the border
08:05 Darren_Duncan what do you mean "unfortunately"; what would you prefer
08:05 Darren_Duncan for an os
08:05 thesaboteur I would prefer a debian or Fedora system
08:05 Darren_Duncan you can dual-boot Macs with a half dozen plus Linux distros
08:05 nothingmuch especially debian or fedora
08:05 nothingmuch though on macs i would prefer gentoo
08:05 thesaboteur Im a newbie with perl (Just learning) and working on getting my perl fixed so I can use modules from cpan.
08:05 nothingmuch since it's a bit less trouble
08:05 nothingmuch thesaboteur: the #1 place to do that is http://www.perlmonks.org/
08:05 thesaboteur eh dual booting is to much work.
08:05 nothingmuch well, suite yourself... If you don't want linux enough to work for it ;-)
08:05 Darren_Duncan in my understanding, the most popular Mac distro is Yellow Dog Linux (YDL), which I think is a version of one of your prefs ... have to check
08:05 thesaboteur nothingmuch: ah thankye
08:06 nothingmuch YDL == redhat, sort of
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08:06 thesaboteur er
08:06 Darren_Duncan well, you can sole-boot a Mac under Linux if you want
08:06 thesaboteur it's not really "my mac" hence the not trying to transform it into linux to much.
08:06 thesaboteur im at work
08:06 Darren_Duncan from what I've heard, its a lot easier to dual-boot with the Mac os than it is with Windows; I've heard the latter tends to screw with things
08:06 nothingmuch http://pugs.kwiki.org/?OSXPeople
08:07 thesaboteur I really hate macs but if I can install enough linux stuff onto it then it makes it bearable :)
08:08 autrijus try Ubuntu on PowerPC :)
08:08 theorbtwo Debian should run just fine on PPC, dual-booting.
08:08 thesaboteur yeh but I can't change the os
08:08 nothingmuch thesaboteur: if you have another mac, you can boot your mac in fw disk mode
08:08 * theorbtwo wonders if it's worth the effort to set up an emulated OSX in order to pair with somebody.
08:09 nothingmuch and use ipartition to resize the partition of your root
08:09 nothingmuch or just copy everything over
08:09 nothingmuch repartition
08:09 nothingmuch and copy everything back
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08:09 Darren_Duncan should we sign up to Perl6People too?
08:09 nothingmuch theorbtwo: it'll probably be very very slow
08:09 Darren_Duncan re the qwiki?
08:09 autrijus thesaboteur: MacOnLinux?
08:09 nothingmuch but pearpc can do it
08:09 autrijus it seemed to work fine the last time I tried
08:09 thesaboteur I dunno I got confused a few lines ago
08:09 autrijus pearpc = ultra slow.
08:10 autrijus I'd suggest moonedit ;)
08:10 Darren_Duncan I've heard that the Mac hardware is a preference among Linux people
08:10 hoowa haha tang
08:10 autrijus greetings hoowa!
08:10 Darren_Duncan any main complaints are with the OS
08:10 theorbtwo It was almost usable on my 700MHz P3; this is a 3GHz P4/HT, so should be barely usable.
08:10 thesaboteur Darren_Duncan: yeh don't get me wrong the processors are bad ass but I have a very deep hatred of macs that has been with me for years.
08:10 autrijus 3ghc sounds indeed borderline okay.
08:11 autrijus 3ghz, even. bad autocompletion
08:11 thesaboteur Im attempting to install xtools now, hopefully it works and makes my perl stuff work
08:11 Darren_Duncan thesaboteur: that's unfortunate
08:11 Darren_Duncan I don't use xtools, even though I hear they're great
08:12 Darren_Duncan just the BBEdit text editor and the standard Unix perl
08:12 * nothingmuch uses carbon vim
08:12 thesaboteur Darren_Duncan: I think it stems from when I was a little kid, using a school mac, I think the mac tried to molest me and I have repressed the memory.
08:12 Khisanth ...
08:12 Darren_Duncan that could be it ... surely there are no real reasons to hate macs
08:12 nothingmuch isn't xtools some kind of configuration management thingy for OSX server?
08:13 thesaboteur er I thought xtools was what gave me gcc and stuff like that?
08:13 nothingmuch ah
08:13 nothingmuch xcode
08:13 thesaboteur er yea thats it
08:13 nothingmuch if your mac is new, it's in /Applications/Installers
08:13 nothingmuch or something like that
08:13 Darren_Duncan XCode is it
08:13 nothingmuch perl works without it, btw
08:13 thesaboteur oh I downloaded it from the mac site
08:13 Darren_Duncan It comes on a separate CD with the Mac OS X Cds, or you can download it
08:13 Darren_Duncan for free
08:13 nothingmuch and XCode the IDE is not very perl friendly without camelbones
08:13 thesaboteur yeah my perl works but I couldn't install/configure a module I got from cpan
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08:14 nothingmuch ah, that makes sense
08:14 thesaboteur yeah so im working on trying to figure out what I have to do, so I can compile modules from cpan without doing a bunch of magic tricks.
08:14 Darren_Duncan Apple's bundle of developer tools gives you gcc, but you can install that by itself and without XCode
08:15 Darren_Duncan XCode does require gcc though, as it uses gcc behind the scenes
08:15 thesaboteur Darren_Duncan: yea but then I wouldn't have all the library's I need though right?
08:15 fayland has joined #perl6
08:15 Darren_Duncan libraries for what?
08:15 nothingmuch i'd just install it all
08:15 thesaboteur I dunno really
08:15 Darren_Duncan The standard bsd libraries are separate installs from carbon/cocoa etc
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08:15 nothingmuch and from the web is prolly a good choice, since it's more recent
08:15 fayland has joined #perl6
08:15 Darren_Duncan still, I just install everything, its about 500M
08:15 thesaboteur dunno but xcode install is almost done now anyways
08:16 Darren_Duncan the stuff I don't use is there to play with later when I want to try that cool Cocoa stuff
08:16 nothingmuch Cocoa is mui fun
08:16 thesaboteur as long as I can compile stuff i'll be happy
08:16 nothingmuch when i have little bits of time i try to hack in it
08:17 nothingmuch thesaboteur: if you want linux like goodness, fink.sf.net
08:17 Darren_Duncan once you've done the general dev tools install, you can run gcc on the command line as usual
08:17 Darren_Duncan that's what I used to compile my Perl
08:17 thesaboteur nothingmuch: yeh I have that :)
08:17 nothingmuch doesn't it want the dev tools?
08:17 Darren_Duncan I don't use Fink -- its a great tool, but I didn't need it
08:18 * nothingmuch doesn't like fink because if something breaks, it all breaks
08:18 thesaboteur nothingmuch: to do anything usefull it does yea :)
08:18 nothingmuch i use it very very very sparingly
08:18 Darren_Duncan I compile perl on the command line, basic "make Configure" etc
08:19 thesaboteur fink works good for small packages that im to lazy to compile myself, like ping and whois.
08:19 Darren_Duncan Fink was more useful in the older days, by providing access to a lot of unix software that otherwise know about Mac OS X to install the normal way
08:19 nothingmuch you have ping and whois on OSX
08:19 thesaboteur yea
08:19 Darren_Duncan these days, everything I need knows about OS X, so fink isn't needed
08:19 ingy thesaboteur: do you know about Kwiki?
08:19 nothingmuch did you install the BSD subsystem?
08:19 thesaboteur ingy: never heard of it
08:19 Darren_Duncan oh yes, the BSD subsystem is required for the dev tools
08:19 thesaboteur nothingmuch: I dunno I just kept clicking agree/ok
08:20 nothingmuch huh
08:20 nothingmuch bummer
08:20 Darren_Duncan that is part of the standard Mac OS X install, and is installed by default with Mac OS X, unless you uncheck the option
08:20 nothingmuch lots of std unix tools are installed on OSX
08:20 nothingmuch but i don't remember if by default or not
08:20 ingy thesaboteur: it is a wiki framework with plugins... about 150 modules from various authors
08:20 Darren_Duncan the BSD tools includes the Perl bundled with OS X
08:20 Darren_Duncan 5.8.1 was bundled with Panther 10.3
08:20 ingy thesaboteur: I have a method to install and maintain all of those without going thru cpan
08:21 thesaboteur Darren_Duncan: im not doing an os install, perl was/is installed.  Im simply trying to get gcc and a perl install that will work with cpan modules.
08:21 Darren_Duncan sure, and it was simple for me
08:21 thesaboteur ingy: hmm sounds kool.
08:22 ingy Darren_Duncan: I just checked in a new Pugs::MakeMaker
08:22 ingy could you test it out
08:22 autrijus fayland++ # volunteering to take over zh-cn maintainership
08:22 thesaboteur ingy: Im trying to get a fairly uncommon module to work though I suspect
08:22 autrijus fayland: you are a pugs committer now. welcome aboard!
08:22 ingy thesaboteur: ok
08:22 Darren_Duncan simply installing the whole dev tools set on top of a machine with the whole OS X
08:22 Darren_Duncan includes all the tools you need to do perl stuff, or compile with gcc
08:22 Darren_Duncan ingy, I hear you, will check it out
08:22 fayland autrijus ,thanks.i'll do my best
08:23 * nothingmuch fades out
08:23 nothingmuch ciao
08:23 thesaboteur sweet the new xcode tools thingy fixed my perl :)
08:24 Darren_Duncan great to hear , sab
08:24 thesaboteur it installed to, yay.
08:25 Darren_Duncan gcc 3.4 is what currently comes with the os x dev tools
08:26 Darren_Duncan Mac OS X Tiger 10.4 is now being built with gcc 4, so its tools should have that too
08:27 Darren_Duncan okay, I see problems with the latest Pugs
08:27 Darren_Duncan earlier today, it compiled and tested without issues
08:28 ingy Darren_Duncan: your module?
08:28 theorbtwo 33/1281 subtests failed, 97.42% okay?  That's expected.
08:28 Darren_Duncan now 'make' is fine but 'make test' is borked
08:28 ingy Darren_Duncan: did your module pass its test?
08:29 ingy because it fails here
08:29 cls_bsd flush Failed Test   Stat Wstat Total Fail  Failed  List of Failed
08:29 Darren_Duncan it says Failed 77 test scripts, no output seen ... before that it says 'unexpected "$"' and "expecting ";" or end of input
08:29 cls_bsd t/op/assign.t                2    2 100.00%  1-2
08:29 cls_bsd t/op/auto.t      1   256    37   44 118.92%  11-37
08:29 cls_bsd t/op/not.t                  14    4  28.57%  1-2 4-5
08:29 ingy but I don't think it is my fault
08:29 Darren_Duncan ingy, I expect that my module will not pass its test, since it uses features Pugs doesn't support; it shouldn't even compile ...
08:30 ingy oh
08:30 Darren_Duncan but the test suite doesn't run /modules, does it?
08:30 ingy ok, then I won't attempt to fix it :P
08:30 Darren_Duncan those are "extra"
08:30 ingy no
08:30 ingy yes they are extra
08:31 Darren_Duncan I expect to try running what I committed when Pugs has its features
08:31 Darren_Duncan meanwhile, its presence can give developers an idea what features to put in possibly earlier
08:31 Darren_Duncan I only use the simpler parts of the missing features
08:31 Darren_Duncan no overloading, no multimethods, etc
08:32 ingy ok
08:32 autrijus the failed tests is not Officially Okay
08:32 autrijus but is Acceptable during releases
08:32 autrijus it is my plan to make them TODO before each release
08:32 autrijus for that release tarball alone
08:32 ingy aye
08:32 Darren_Duncan meanwhile, people can just critique the code in my mod if they see what doesn't look like proper perl 6 code
08:32 autrijus but let them fail (as long as it's not fail-to-compile) during releases
08:32 autrijus Darren_Duncan: wonderful work!
08:32 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
08:33 * autrijus is still stuck at $client_site waiting for a particularly slow GCC install.
08:33 autrijus AIX--
08:33 Darren_Duncan note that I ran 'make clean' prior to these last tests; might that have borked it?
08:33 ingy AIX-- indeed
08:33 theorbtwo You can't ssh home?
08:33 * ingy hasn't worked on AIX in 10 years though
08:34 flw has joined #perl6
08:34 * decay_ is sitting at a aix workstation right now ;)
08:34 Darren_Duncan This is an example of what was borked with the tests;
08:34 Darren_Duncan t/01basic........................
08:34 Darren_Duncan unexpected "$"
08:34 Darren_Duncan expecting ";" or end of input
08:34 Darren_Duncan NonTerm "/System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/Test.pm" (line 31, column 1)
08:34 ingy Darren_Duncan: use make purge instead
08:35 ingy and svn up
08:35 Darren_Duncan will try that
08:35 Darren_Duncan come to think of it, my "perl Makefile.PL" mentioned something missing, but I thought it was unimportant
08:36 Darren_Duncan okay, I did 'make purge' and 'svn update' then what followed started out the same
08:36 Darren_Duncan Warning: the following files are missing in your kit:
08:36 Darren_Duncan        modules/Sample-Module/blib6/ar​ch/auto/Sample/Module/.exists
08:36 Darren_Duncan        modules/Sample-Module/blib6/l​ib/auto/Sample/Module/.exists
08:36 Darren_Duncan        modules/Sample-Module/blib6/lib/Sample/.exists
08:36 Darren_Duncan        modules/Sample-Module/blib6/lib/Sample/Module.pm
08:36 Darren_Duncan Please inform the author.
08:37 ingy hrm
08:37 ingy one sec
08:38 ingy svn up
08:38 ingy that was likely my fault :(
08:39 Darren_Duncan continuing, 'make' gives no errors, 'make test' same as before ...
08:39 Darren_Duncan ingy, I'll wait for you to do something, since you seem to recognize it
08:40 ingy that's inconceivable
08:40 ingy it works fine over here
08:40 Darren_Duncan if it makes any difference, I could throw out my whole working dir and do a fresh checkout?
08:40 Darren_Duncan just in case
08:41 ingy you don't have to throw the old one out
08:41 ingy are you using svk or svn?
08:41 Darren_Duncan I didn't mean that literally
08:41 ingy well yeah, try it
08:42 Darren_Duncan I'm using svn, same as the host server seems to be
08:42 fayland has quit IRC ()
08:42 ingy svk talks to svn servers.. but anyways...
08:42 ingy please try a fresh checkout
08:43 Darren_Duncan I noticed something curious ... apparently there are a couple blib folders in the folder that is the parent of my pugs root dir; one says 'blib' and the other 'blib6', the latter just updated.
08:43 Darren_Duncan is it normal to have blib outside the current working directory?
08:45 ingy hmmm
08:45 Darren_Duncan svn checkout http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ in progress
08:45 Darren_Duncan done ... revision 524
08:45 ingy It orks for me on two different machines
08:45 ingy works
08:46 Darren_Duncan This time, "perl Makefile.PL" gives no errors
08:46 ingy osx and linux
08:47 Darren_Duncan however, while make was fine, 'make test' did what it did before
08:48 ingy delete the spurious blib dirs
08:48 Darren_Duncan eg ...
08:48 ingy what type of os are you on?
08:48 Darren_Duncan t/op/substr......................
08:48 Darren_Duncan unexpected "$"
08:48 Darren_Duncan expecting ";" or end of input
08:48 Darren_Duncan NonTerm "/System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/Test.pm" (line 31, column 1)
08:48 Darren_Duncan t/op/substr......................dubious                                    
08:48 Darren_Duncan        Test returned status 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)
08:48 Darren_Duncan I removed everything before checkout, including all the blib dirs
08:48 autrijus hrmph.
08:48 autrijus it's using the perl5's Test.pm.
08:49 autrijus not pugs'.
08:49 autrijus hence, the problem.
08:49 ingy yes
08:49 Darren_Duncan I'm on Mac OS X
08:49 ingy I noticed
08:49 Darren_Duncan and it did work fine earlier today
08:49 ingy trying to figure out why
08:49 ingy Darren_Duncan: run `./pugs -V`
08:50 Darren_Duncan here ya go ...
08:50 Darren_Duncan Summary of pugs configuration:
08:50 Darren_Duncan archlib: /System/Library/Perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level
08:50 Darren_Duncan privlib: /System/Library/Perl6
08:50 Darren_Duncan sitearch: /Library/Perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level
08:50 Darren_Duncan sitelib: /Library/Perl6
08:50 Darren_Duncan @*INC:
08:50 Darren_Duncan .
08:50 cls_bsd '% pugs assign.t' and failed
08:50 ingy yow!
08:50 Darren_Duncan that wasn't all of it, my IRC client cut off
08:51 Darren_Duncan the rest ...
08:51 Darren_Duncan .
08:51 ingy Darren_Duncan: you need to use nopaste
08:51 Darren_Duncan what's nopaste?
08:51 ingy perlbot: nopaste?
08:51 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
08:52 ingy make sure to select #perl6
08:52 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "the result of pugs -V" (14 lines, 435B) at http://sial.org/pbot/7969
08:53 Darren_Duncan how's that?
08:53 scw cls_bsd: yes, it fails and should fail.
08:53 Darren_Duncan I'll bookmark the 'bot for next time
08:53 ingy now paste all of the build output
08:53 autrijus I wonder if we should add a notice to Makefile.PL
08:53 autrijus that says "failed tests is okay inbetween releases"
08:53 autrijus or something like that
08:53 autrijus to reduce fear undertainty and doubt
08:54 ingy I don't really think they are so ok, but maybe I'm thinking wrong
08:54 flw has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
08:54 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "the build information, I think" (49 lines, 2.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/7970
08:54 autrijus okay, as in, we except them to happen
08:54 autrijus we will get around to it soon
08:54 autrijus et cetera.
08:54 ingy it certainly is nice to have failing tests shared amongst us
08:55 ingy maybe we need unit tests vs regression tests
08:55 ingy t/ and unit/
08:56 autrijus maybe. sounds bdufing though.
08:56 ingy true
08:56 cls_bsd hmm
08:56 ingy but then again I'm the bduf master :p
08:56 ingy anyway I'm not sold on it
08:56 autrijus IGNY
08:57 ingy I think the message idea is fine
08:57 autrijus "I'm gonna need you", or something :)
08:57 * autrijus thinks ingy's open source project manager points are well-stated, and that igny != bduf generally :)
08:58 ingy my motto was always YAAGNI
08:58 ingy You Actually *Are* Gonna Need It!
08:59 ingy Darren_Duncan: the failing test output man!
09:00 Darren_Duncan am I the first one to have this?
09:00 ingy Darren_Duncan: what directory do you run perl Makefile.PL from?
09:01 Darren_Duncan I run it from inside the root of the pugs directory, the directory that contains /lib and /t and etc
09:01 ingy cp kwid ../../../blib6/script/kwid
09:01 Darren_Duncan this is standard for CPAn distros, and the Perl distro itself, I think
09:01 ingy that is definitely messed up
09:01 Darren_Duncan at least that's how I always did it
09:02 ingy that's correct
09:02 Darren_Duncan after all, an unqualified file name, "Makefile.PL" you have to be in the same dir as the file
09:02 ingy where is your test output?
09:02 Darren_Duncan I'll paste the lot if you want, but its 77X of the same more or less
09:03 ingy well i think the problemo is the ../../../blib6
09:03 ingy Darren_Duncan: just paste the top stuff
09:04 ingy cp lib/Test.pm ../../../blib6/lib/Test.pm
09:04 ingy Test.pm is not where pugs testing can find it
09:04 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "result of make test" (30 lines, 2.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/7971
09:04 ingy thus the problem
09:04 Darren_Duncan I snipped the middle
09:05 ingy ok I got it
09:07 Darren_Duncan goodstuff
09:07 ingy can you paste ext/Test/Makefile
09:08 Darren_Duncan just a sec
09:09 ingy and also paste inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm and ext/Test/Makefile.PL
09:09 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "/ext/Test/Makefile" (521 lines, 14.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/7972
09:11 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "/ext/Test/Makefile.PL" (14 lines, 316B) at http://sial.org/pbot/7973
09:11 ingy autrijus: ping
09:11 ingy autrijus: look at http://sial.org/pbot/7972
09:12 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "/inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm" (74 lines, 2.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/7974
09:12 ingy autrijus: especially INST_LIB
09:12 ingy that is messed up!
09:13 Darren_Duncan as inane as it sounds, I'm going to try something I should't have to try ... back in a few minutes
09:13 Darren_Duncan has quit IRC ()
09:13 ingy omg, is he rebooting?
09:16 ingy Dear Darren, if rebooting doesn't work try touching your head and then your feet alternately for about 15 minutes...
09:16 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
09:16 ingy Darren_Duncan: if you ever reboot to solve a perl problem again, I am never helping you
09:16 thesaboteur Then repeatedly chant "I am the walrus" while clicking your heels together.
09:17 Darren_Duncan I totally didn't expect that to work
09:17 Darren_Duncan but who knows about strange background issues
09:17 ingy obviously not you :P
09:18 ingy MakeMaker is behaving strangely
09:18 ingy what version is your perl?
09:18 Darren_Duncan I just figured, might as well try everything
09:18 Darren_Duncan the one I was using with Pugs was the bundled one, 5.8.1rc4
09:19 ingy 01:16 < ingy> Dear Darren, if rebooting doesn't work try touching your head and then your feet alternately for about 15 minutes...
09:19 Darren_Duncan I also have 5.8.6 installed in a separate dir; could run through that instead
09:19 ingy ok...
09:19 ingy 5.8.1 is a POS
09:19 ingy but I'm not certain that is the problem
09:20 thesaboteur has left
09:20 ingy but i wouldn't be  surprised
09:20 Darren_Duncan yet 5.8.1 worked earlier
09:20 ingy well this isn't earlier
09:20 Darren_Duncan no
09:21 ingy I get the same thing with my /usr/bin/perl
09:22 ingy autrijus: ping... have you seen this?
09:22 xerox has joined #perl6
09:22 Darren_Duncan currently I'm trying without a new re-checkout
09:23 Darren_Duncan make skipped everything, make test failed as before
09:23 Darren_Duncan NonTerm "/Volumes/Programming160/Pe​rl/lib/perl5/5.8.6/Test.pm" (line 31, column 1)
09:23 Darren_Duncan So its using the newer version now
09:23 ingy http://sial.org/pbot/7972 ... INST_LIB is clearly set to ../../blib6/lib but ../../../blib6/lib gets used
09:24 ingy Darren_Duncan: so is it working with the new perl?
09:24 Darren_Duncan I could try sitting in the parent of the 'pugs' directory and see what happens
09:24 Darren_Duncan no, see my above comment
09:24 ingy nononono
09:25 ingy that will work as well as rebooting did
09:25 Darren_Duncan sitting in parent failed
09:25 ingy where is your perl-5.8.6 located?
09:26 Darren_Duncan see above comment
09:26 ingy what is the path to your perl-5.8.6?
09:27 Darren_Duncan test
09:28 Darren_Duncan du-oh, a leading "/" doesn't work here
09:28 Darren_Duncan how about: /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perl
09:28 ingy /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perl -v
09:28 ingy /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perl -v
09:29 Darren_Duncan but I have a softlink to it at /Volumes/Programming160/perl58 , which is what I actually invoked
09:29 ingy do this...
09:29 ingy checkout a new version
09:29 Darren_Duncan I'm on the -v
09:29 ingy cd to into it
09:30 ingy  /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perl Makefile.PL; make test
09:30 pasteling "Darren_Duncan" at 24.109.93.98 pasted "the -v output" (10 lines, 463B) at http://sial.org/pbot/7975
09:31 Darren_Duncan my 5.8.6 is just all the default settings, except for its location
09:31 fayland has joined #perl6
09:31 Darren_Duncan so I don't clobber the Perl that came with the os
09:31 Darren_Duncan will do, just a sec
09:32 ingy also try running
09:32 Darren_Duncan checkout in progress
09:33 ingy /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perldoc -l ExtUtils::MakeMaker
09:33 ingy what is the output for that?
09:33 metaperl has joined #perl6
09:34 ingy Darren_Duncan: what is the output for /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin/perldoc -l ExtUtils::MakeMaker
09:35 Darren_Duncan didn't get to that yet, on 'make test'
09:35 Darren_Duncan separate window ...
09:36 Darren_Duncan the tests seem to be working now
09:36 dada has joined #Perl6
09:36 dada hola
09:37 nothingmuch hola
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09:37 ingy Darren_Duncan: ok.. you probably want /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/bin in the front of your path
09:37 Darren_Duncan your next question resulted in ...
09:37 Darren_Duncan ... /Volumes/Programming160/Perl/lib/​perl5/5.8.6/ExtUtils/MakeMaker.pm
09:38 ingy ok fine
09:41 ingy the problem is solved
09:41 ingy perl-5.8.1-RC1 sucks!!!
09:41 Darren_Duncan now it says failed 3/77, which sounds like what you expected
09:41 ingy yes
09:41 * ingy never uses the system perl
09:41 * nothingmuch neither
09:41 Darren_Duncan still, I'm going to test a bit more on my own to see why 581 worked before but not now, maybe
09:41 nothingmuch but then again, i'm an idiot in that respect
09:41 * nothingmuch works in 5.9
09:41 Darren_Duncan to be honest, I prefer to use 5.8.6, and into there is where I install any mods ...
09:41 ingy ok I am leaving....
09:41 Darren_Duncan I just use the system perl as a shortcut when I think it won't make any difference
09:41 Darren_Duncan thanks for your time
09:41 nothingmuch ciao ingy!
09:41 Darren_Duncan see you ingy
09:41 ingy laters
09:41 Darren_Duncan and now it's 1:41am here
09:48 Darren_Duncan good night brave souls
09:49 theorbtwo G'midmorning, Darren.
09:49 Darren_Duncan ya, that too
09:49 Darren_Duncan very early in the morning
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10:40 kolibrie well, I made it here! first irc in about ten years
10:40 kolibrie pugs is very cool
10:41 kolibrie I'm a little worried by the development pace... I can barely follow it
10:41 kolibrie I have an idea for an addition to Test.pm
10:42 kolibrie I wrote Test::Debugger in perl5 because I wanted some way to output the status for failed or TODO tests
10:44 kolibrie I'm thinking it would be nice to have some kind of logging available in Perl6's Test.pm
10:45 kolibrie If I write something (before someone else writes and commits it), how do I go about sending changes
10:46 kolibrie I'm using the darcs repository
10:46 kolibrie (hope I didn't miss a FAQ)
10:48 thesaboteur has joined #perl6
10:54 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>perl makefile.pl
10:54 flw *** Readline support disabled.  If you want readline support,
10:54 flw please install Term::ReadLine::Gnu from CPAN, as well as
10:54 flw the GNU Readline headers and shared library.
10:54 flw Writing Makefile for Kwid
10:54 flw Writing Makefile for Pugs::MakeMaker
10:54 flw Writing Makefile for Test
10:54 flw Writing Makefile for Perl6::Pugs
10:54 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>dir makefile
10:54 flw Çý¶¯Æ÷ D ÖеľíÊÇ ¹¤×÷·ÖÇø
10:54 flw ¾íµÄÐòÁкÅÊÇ F8C0-4091
10:54 flw D:\MoChou\pugs µÄĿ¼
10:54 flw 2005-03-08  18:54               26,259 Makefile
10:54 flw 1 ¸öÎļþ         26,259 ×Ö½Ú
10:54 flw 0 ¸öĿ¼     56,369,152 ¿ÉÓÃ×Ö½Ú
10:54 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>nmake
10:54 flw Microsoft (R) ³ÌÐòά»¤ÊµÓù¤¾ß 7.00.9466 °æ
10:54 flw °æȨËùÓÐ (C) Microsoft Corporation¡£±£ÁôËùÓÐȨÀû¡£
10:54 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1052: δÕÒµ½Îļþ¡°Makefile¡±
10:54 flw Stop.
10:54 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1077: ¡°cd¡± : ·µ»Ø´úÂë¡°0x2¡±
10:54 flw Stop.
10:54 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>
10:54 flw Pugs Ϊʲô±àÒë²»¹ýÈ¥£¿
10:55 flw autrijus ÔÚ²»ÔÚ£¿
10:57 thesaboteur erm stop using windows :)
10:58 autrijus hi flw.
10:58 autrijus that is strange.
10:58 autrijus can you try using an older version of nmake?
10:58 autrijus the free downloadable version of 1.50?
10:58 autrijus instead of 5.00.9466
10:59 bd_ has joined #perl6
11:03 autrijus I'll be back later
11:04 autrijus going away from net access &
11:07 dada it seems to work with nmake 7.10.3077, though
11:07 flw ÎÒÊÔÊÔ nmake 1.50
11:16 flw Óà nmake 1.50 Ò²²»ÐУ¬Í¬ÑùµÄ´íÎó¡£
11:22 dada flw: ?
11:25 sorje has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
11:26 flw ================================================
11:26 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>svn up
11:26 flw ÓÚÐÞ¶©°æ 524¡£
11:26 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>perl makefile.pl
11:26 flw *** Readline support disabled.  If you want readline support,
11:26 flw please install Term::ReadLine::Gnu from CPAN, as well as
11:26 flw the GNU Readline headers and shared library.
11:26 flw Checking if your kit is complete...
11:26 flw Looks good
11:26 sorje has joined #perl6
11:26 flw Writing Makefile for Kwid
11:26 flw Writing Makefile for Pugs::MakeMaker
11:26 flw Writing Makefile for Test
11:26 flw Writing Makefile for Perl6::Pugs
11:26 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>nmake
11:26 flw Microsoft (R) Program Maintenance Utility   Version 1.50
11:26 flw Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1988-94. All rights reserved.
11:26 flw cp lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm blib\lib\Perl6\Pugs.pm
11:26 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1052: file 'Makefile' not found
11:26 flw Stop.
11:26 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1077: 'C:\WINNT\system32\cmd.exe' : return code '0x2'
11:26 flw Stop.
11:26 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>
11:26 flw ================================================
11:26 flw ================================================
11:27 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>svn up
11:27 flw ÓÚÐÞ¶©°æ 524¡£
11:27 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>perl makefile.pl
11:27 flw *** Readline support disabled.  If you want readline support,
11:27 flw please install Term::ReadLine::Gnu from CPAN, as well as
11:27 flw the GNU Readline headers and shared library.
11:27 flw Checking if your kit is complete...
11:27 flw Looks good
11:27 flw Writing Makefile for Kwid
11:27 flw Writing Makefile for Pugs::MakeMaker
11:27 flw Writing Makefile for Test
11:27 flw Writing Makefile for Perl6::Pugs
11:27 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>nmake
11:27 flw Microsoft (R) Program Maintenance Utility   Version 1.50
11:27 flw Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1988-94. All rights reserved.
11:27 flw cp lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm blib\lib\Perl6\Pugs.pm
11:27 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1052: file 'Makefile' not found
11:27 flw Stop.
11:27 flw NMAKE : fatal error U1077: 'C:\WINNT\system32\cmd.exe' : return code '0x2'
11:28 flw Stop.
11:28 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>
11:28 flw ================================================
11:29 dada uhm
11:30 dada what does 'dir Makefile' say again?
11:33 flw ================================================
11:33 flw D:\MoChou\pugs>nmake clean
11:33 flw Microsoft (R) Program Maintenance Utility   Version 1.50
11:33 flw Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1988-94. All rights reserved.
11:33 flw cd ext/Kwid/ && D:\Perl\bin\perl.exe -Iinc -MExtUtils::Command -e test_f
11:33 flw Makefile && nmake clean
11:33 flw has quit IRC (Excess Flood)
11:33 flw has joined #perl6
11:33 clkao nopaste please
11:34 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
11:35 flw dada: please receive.
11:38 flw has quit IRC ("±àд¹úÈË×Ô¼ºµÄÈí¼þ£¬·¢Ñï¹úÈ˵ÄÖÇ»Û SunNet HIRC-2")
11:40 dada flw: I'm firewalled
11:40 dada oops
11:43 nothingmuch salad++
11:44 flw has joined #perl6
11:45 nothingmuch perlbot: nopaste
11:45 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
11:45 nothingmuch flw - you should use that
11:46 flw ok
11:47 flw http://sial.org/pbot/7977
11:49 nothingmuch err, set the chanel to #perl6
11:52 pasteling "flw" at 221.218.15.49 pasted "make pugs failed!" (78 lines, 2.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/7978
11:53 nothingmuch ok, now find someone who knows more than me about windows/nmake ;-)
11:54 nothingmuch huh!
11:55 nothingmuch the makefile works
11:55 nothingmuch cp lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm blib\lib\Perl6\Pugs.pm
11:55 nothingmuch odd
11:55 dada flw: I don't know
11:55 nothingmuch does windows have the equiv of strace?
11:55 dada nothingmuch: I don't think so
11:55 nothingmuch that way you can find out rather easily exactly what makefile path it's trying to open
11:55 nothingmuch by looking for chdir and open syscalls
11:55 nothingmuch well, that's as far as I go
11:56 nothingmuch except that you should try going into ext/*
11:56 nothingmuch and see if there's a makefile in each one of those
11:56 dada the only thing that I can think of is some misunderstanding due to unicode, probably
11:56 nothingmuch yah, that happens a lot with make stuff
11:56 nothingmuch many perl modules' compilations break unless you set LC_ALL=C
11:57 nothingmuch if your username has funny chars
11:57 nothingmuch mine, for example, is יובל קוג'מן
11:57 nothingmuch make doesn't like that
12:01 thesaboteur Im really new at perl, I want to tell perl to only print out parts of a string and to discard the other parts.
12:01 thesaboteur print "From:\e[1;31m $_[0]\e[0m  : $_[2]\n"
12:02 thesaboteur $_[2] this part here has a huge string in it
12:02 thesaboteur I want to chop out stuff like <html><body ichatballooncolor=
12:02 flw ²»Ì«Ã÷°×ÖîλµÄÒâ˼¡­¡­
12:03 dada thesaboteur: what exactly do you want to chop out? a specified number of chars, or html tags, or what?
12:04 thesaboteur well here's the full string: <html><body ichatballooncolor="#ACB5BF" ichattextcolor="#000000"><font face="Helvetica" ABSZ=12 color="#000000">j</font></body></html>
12:04 thesaboteur I want to chop out everything except for "j"
12:04 thesaboteur but j will be different everytime
12:05 thesaboteur and their are other variables like "#ACB5BF"  ="#000000" etc.
12:05 dada $_[2] =~ s/<[^>]+>//g;
12:06 wolverian thesaboteur: see HTML::Parser, and the various higher level interfaces to it
12:08 thesaboteur arg this more complicated then I thought it would be
12:09 metaperl HTML::Tree is the way thesaboteur
12:09 metaperl you just want the content of the font tag
12:09 metaperl my $tree = HTML::TreeBuilder->new_from_file($file);
12:09 metaperl my $font = $tree->look_down ('_tag' => 'font');
12:10 metaperl my ($content) = $font->content;
12:10 metaperl print $content
12:10 metaperl done
12:10 thesaboteur er yea but I just started messing with perl yesterday so.
12:10 nothingmuch thesaboteur: if the html is the exact same thing all the time you can also just snip that out, either like dada did, or match out the text with the whole strings on either side
12:10 nothingmuch metaperl++
12:11 nothingmuch thesaboteur: that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it right =)
12:11 thesaboteur nothingmuch: yeah I don't know how to put what dada gave me into my current setup though.
12:11 metaperl nothingmuch: thanks
12:11 dada thesaboteur: right before your print line
12:11 nothingmuch well, it's really simple, just take that chunk, and put it in, but put a 'use HTML::TreeBuilder' in front... Let me explain line by line
12:12 nothingmuch my $tree = # this declares a variable named tree
12:12 nothingmuch HTML::Tree::Builder->new_from_file($file)
12:12 nothingmuch and assigns it the return value of the method new_from_file called on the class HTML::TreeBuilder
12:12 nothingmuch that is to say
12:12 nothingmuch it tells HTML::Tree::Builder to create a new tree object, from the file whose path is in the strig $file
12:13 thesaboteur yea I know roughly how it works (I think).
12:13 nothingmuch ok, so we have the HTML tree of the document inside $tree
12:13 nothingmuch we ask it to find us an element named font
12:13 nothingmuch which is another object
12:13 nothingmuch we take that
12:13 nothingmuch and ask it to give us it's content
12:13 nothingmuch which is a string
12:13 nothingmuch we print that
12:14 thesaboteur yeah I see
12:14 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?HTML::TreeBuilder <-- where to find documentation, and installation links
12:14 nothingmuch or perldoc HTML::TreeBuilder if you have it installed
12:14 nothingmuch if you don't have it installed, 'perl -MCPAN -e shell'
12:15 nothingmuch it will ask you to configure some options
12:15 nothingmuch use the default for what you don't care about
12:15 nothingmuch and then when you see a prompt, type 'install HTML::TreeBuilder'
12:15 thesaboteur ok kool, thanks
12:15 nothingmuch you can also use the download link from search.cpan.org
12:15 nothingmuch untar that
12:15 thesaboteur I didn't know I could do that
12:15 nothingmuch and do 'perl Makefile.PL' in the untarred dir
12:16 thesaboteur yeh I installed 2 modules already
12:16 nothingmuch but that won't automatically tell you about/install  dependancies
12:19 thesaboteur that's badass it's installing now
12:19 thesaboteur it's like apt but for perl :)
12:20 nothingmuch you can also try CPANPLUS
12:20 nothingmuch it's the next version of the CPAN shell
12:20 nothingmuch a complete rewrite
12:20 thesaboteur kool
12:23 thesaboteur once I run perl -MCPAN -e shell do I have to configure everytime or can I run this a different way?
12:27 thesaboteur I ran it as non root the first time, so trying again now.
12:29 nothingmuch no, it saves it either in /Library/Perl/..../CPAN/MyConfig.pm
12:29 nothingmuch or something like that
12:29 nothingmuch or under ~/.cpan
12:29 nothingmuch i forget the diffs between CPAN and CPANPLUS in that respect
12:29 metaperl CPANPLUS works well for me for non-root installs. CPAN did not
12:30 nothingmuch CPAN is hard to trick to work as nonroot
12:30 nothingmuch but it can be done
12:30 nothingmuch CPANPLUS is better thought out for that
12:31 thesaboteur yeh it's working ok for me now  
12:35 nothingmuch beh, what an annoying machine
12:35 thesaboteur dada: thanks what you gave me seems to work ok
12:35 * nothingmuch has been running coverage analisys for a product on a box
12:35 nothingmuch for 2 weeks
12:35 nothingmuch err, it'll take 2 weeks
12:35 nothingmuch i've been at it for 1
12:35 nothingmuch and all the trouble that could happen is
12:35 nothingmuch now it's not powering up
12:35 nothingmuch =(
12:36 thesaboteur er that sucks
12:36 nothingmuch uhuh
12:36 thesaboteur what happens when you turn it on, any fans spin or anything?
12:36 nothingmuch nada
12:36 nothingmuch we had a power failure
12:37 thesaboteur eh
12:37 nothingmuch seems like the power supply took some punishment
12:37 thesaboteur yeah I would start there, what kinda box is it.
12:37 nothingmuch our sysop will deal with it promply, though
12:37 nothingmuch some mega super x86
12:37 nothingmuch fast
12:37 nothingmuch powerful
12:37 nothingmuch but not professional hardware
12:37 nothingmuch and if not our sysop, our vice president of R&D
12:37 thesaboteur heh
12:38 nothingmuch he's an EE guy
12:38 nothingmuch and loves nostalgic trips
12:38 * nothingmuch wants sun/ibm to produce $20,000 x86 boxes
12:38 nothingmuch with reduntant power supplies
12:38 nothingmuch and little 'attn' leds
12:38 thesaboteur Now I just gotta get this thing to stop logging me off when I send lol.
12:39 nothingmuch so that we wouldn't spend so much time fixing them
12:39 nothingmuch i think that's a bot doing that
12:39 nothingmuch lol
12:39 nothingmuch hmm
12:39 shapr My box right next to me has redundant power supplies, and it only cost me 2500euro.
12:39 thesaboteur sun's new server the v40z er something like that has a mini computer inside of it, to give you detailed stats if it has problems, it's own little bios and stuff, hella kool.
12:39 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
12:39 nothingmuch we have sunfires here
12:40 nothingmuch an age old sun workstation
12:40 nothingmuch which only recently had keyboard trouble
12:40 nothingmuch also, a 192mhz aix box
12:40 nothingmuch i don't know how it's still alive
12:41 thesaboteur we used to have tons of old ss5 pizza boxes.
12:41 nothingmuch these things are just higher quality hardware
12:41 nothingmuch we have two x86 pizzaboxes by sun
12:41 nothingmuch but i don't know how good they are
12:41 thesaboteur lol
12:41 nothingmuch and 5 by asus
12:41 nothingmuch i hope they'll live
12:41 nothingmuch but these are servers
12:42 nothingmuch mail, dns, pdc, etc
12:42 nothingmuch the QA/development are the ones giving us crap
12:42 nothingmuch and they're cheap
12:42 thesaboteur yea we got tired of running servers on pizza boxes so we got an E4500 one day, big improvement for the cheap price.
12:43 thesaboteur i've never really been a big sparc fan though, haven't tried sol10 yet though.
12:43 nothingmuch sounds reliable
12:43 nothingmuch they're cheap now, too
12:44 thesaboteur that e4500 gave us alot of processor problems at first, that's fixed and it still prints goofy power supply errors to the console every now and then.
12:44 nothingmuch we have an e3500 as a dev machine at work
12:44 nothingmuch 8 cpus
12:44 nothingmuch all slow, but still, 8 of them =)
12:44 thesaboteur yeah that's what we had
12:44 thesaboteur 5gb ram
12:44 nothingmuch anywho, we don't have performance trouble
12:44 thesaboteur 2 18gb external drives
12:44 nothingmuch we have reliability trouble
12:44 nothingmuch and the sun/aix/hpux qa machines are good quality
12:44 thesaboteur yea that sucks
12:45 nothingmuch because you can't buy cheap one
12:45 nothingmuch s
12:45 nothingmuch but the linux/windows qa machines are crummy
12:45 thesaboteur heh
12:46 nothingmuch they're faster, but they break
12:46 thesaboteur I've never really had to many major problems with x86 stuff.
12:46 nothingmuch and the one i worked on just dies
12:46 nothingmuch died
12:46 nothingmuch so i'm whyning
12:46 nothingmuch whining
12:46 thesaboteur yea
12:46 nothingmuch ok, well, it was fixed
12:46 * nothingmuch likes the sysop team =)
12:47 nothingmuch good think sqlite is transaction happy
12:48 thesaboteur I get to go home in an hour
12:49 nothingmuch where is home?
12:49 shapr Home is where the heart is.
12:49 thesaboteur dc metro area
12:49 nothingmuch it's very early there, no?
12:49 shapr Happily, I keep mine in my chest, so wherever I am, there you go.
12:49 thesaboteur yea, nearly 8am here
12:50 nothingmuch 1 hour day? or is there some catch
12:50 thesaboteur heh I work the 1-9
12:50 nothingmuch ah
12:50 nothingmuch at programming?
12:50 nothingmuch or do you babysit boxes at night?
12:50 thesaboteur I'm supposed to yell "fire" in the event of one.
12:51 thesaboteur yeah "Pat's the boxes"
12:51 nothingmuch they are that common, huh?
12:51 nothingmuch ;-)
12:51 nothingmuch we have the backup tapes in a fire safe
12:51 nothingmuch and everything else is insured
12:51 thesaboteur so while im here making sure they don't blowup im trying to learn perl
12:52 thesaboteur just cause it sounded good at the time
12:52 nothingmuch well, in that case don't have too much fun
12:52 thesaboteur nothing else better to do
12:52 nothingmuch otherwise you might not notice and lose your job ;-)
12:52 thesaboteur it would be hard to miss it
12:53 thesaboteur lots of loud buzzers and bells and loud sound things anyways
12:53 nothingmuch for nonfires i hope you use nagios
12:53 nothingmuch or equiv
12:53 thesaboteur heh I had mentioned nagios when they interviewed me and they didn't know what I was talking about :/
12:54 shapr aieee
12:54 shapr run away!
12:54 nothingmuch beh!
12:54 thesaboteur they use some proprietary closed source glorified "ping monitor" *cringe*
12:54 shapr Reminds me of a job where I interviewed and they didn't know what recursive descent parsers were....
12:55 nothingmuch if they want something propietry there's IPSentry which is very simple, or BB which is popular
12:55 thesaboteur eh I don't know what that is either.
12:55 shapr thesaboteur: do you do parsing for a living?
12:55 thesaboteur shapr: nope :)
12:55 shapr see, that's okay then ;-)
12:55 shapr These guys did...
12:57 thesaboteur that's kinda like this database company I knew, they refused to use linux for any of there database stuff, something about not point and clicky enough for them.
12:57 thesaboteur so anyways afk for a few gotta go check on the boxes.
12:58 shapr Worst thing yet was a job where I got hired to increase the average cluefulness of fifteen or twenty other programmers. All of their java code used static methods, no object instances. All of their if then calls had an empty "else {};" because they didn't know you could leave it out.
13:02 nothingmuch oh crap
13:02 nothingmuch [root@safta yuval]# swapon -a
13:02 nothingmuch swapon: /dev/hdd3: No such device or address
13:02 nothingmuch no wonder tests are failing
13:02 nothingmuch uck
13:02 * nothingmuch pays sysops another visit
13:05 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC")
13:05 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
13:05 thesaboteur well thanks for the help everyone, Im gonna go, gotta go do stuff. l8r
13:06 thesaboteur has left
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13:13 fayland has joined #perl6
13:20 flw fayland ÔÚÂð£¿
13:20 shapr was that koi-8?
13:21 hcchien fayland: hola
13:21 fayland hcchien,hi
13:22 hcchien fayland: do you use utf-8 for the p6l10n-zh_cn?
13:22 fayland i'm not sure. maybe gb2312
13:22 fayland need uft-8?
13:23 hcchien It would be better. :)
13:23 fayland i'll take care. :)
13:23 hcchien thanks.
13:23 nothingmuch utf-8 is the way perl6 is looking
13:24 theorbtwo utf-8 is the way perl6 is looking to prefer, anyway.
13:25 theorbtwo autrijus has stated that pugs will not accept latin1 « and », but only utf8, and it only seems fair to hold the zh_* people to the same standard.
13:26 nothingmuch i think i annoyed him
13:26 nothingmuch i normally go to great length to use utf8
13:26 nothingmuch because hebrew is very unreliable otherwise
13:26 nothingmuch but when i submtited t/op/zip.t and t/op/quoting.t i forgot
13:26 hcchien hmm..., theorbtwo can type chinese? :)
13:27 shapr I really prefer utf-8 myself.
13:27 theorbtwo Type, possibly.  Understand, no.
13:27 nothingmuch now my vimrc has set encoding=utf8... I hope that doesn't hurt other things too bad
13:27 theorbtwo ﬒
13:28 hcchien I really prefer utf-8 myself either.
13:28 theorbtwo 万
13:29 theorbtwo There we are.  Chinese.  And I even know it means 10,000, because the unicode character browser told me so.
13:30 hcchien anyway, is anyone else interesting in p6l10n?
13:32 nothingmuch i might be tempted to say i will do hebrew
13:32 nothingmuch but i know i won't
13:32 nothingmuch =)
13:35 theorbtwo I suspect it'd be a very good way to force yourself to read the document you're translating hard.
13:36 theorbtwo But then again, I'm monolingual, and thus have little experience trying it.
13:37 nothingmuch well, true that
13:37 nothingmuch but i'm very bad with either language
13:37 hcchien now we have only .tw and .cn.
13:37 nothingmuch and languages in general
13:37 nothingmuch so... =)
13:37 nothingmuch you might be able to get lumi to do it
13:38 theorbtwo You seemed interested in l10n earlier, when you wanted to write p6 code in Hebrew.
13:39 * theorbtwo sees nthListEl' (l:ls) 1 = l in Haskell Tutorial, and thinks "wow, it's already in Hebrew!"
13:42 nothingmuch ah
13:42 nothingmuch no, i didn't want to do it
13:42 nothingmuch i just showed how it might look like
13:42 nothingmuch i will only program in english, or the lingua franca of the period depending on what it is
13:43 nothingmuch and we don't see that changing anytime soon, do we?
13:43 shapr Doesn't lingua franca necessarily imply French?
13:43 nothingmuch anyone can learn perl more easily than hebrew, and most people already english, so...
13:43 nothingmuch yeah, that always bugged me, shapr... =/
13:43 shapr I always purposely misquote and say "lingua fracas"
13:45 nothingmuch the STM article autrijus gave me yesterday is really nice
13:45 shapr Software Transactional Memory?
13:46 nothingmuch uhuh
13:46 shapr that's some powerful stuff
13:46 shapr SPJ is hoping to use that to make GHC SMP-happy.
13:46 nothingmuch indeed it is
13:46 shapr I'm pretty sure it will work out nicely.
13:46 * nothingmuch really sees haskell becomming a major part of his work someday soon
13:46 nothingmuch err, play
13:46 shapr I do wish I could work region allocation in there somewhere.
13:47 shapr I get paid to do Haskell =)
13:47 shapr Amazingly, because I wrote an open source Haskell app and one of my clients wanted to use it.
13:47 nothingmuch ooh
13:47 nothingmuch what app was that?
13:48 shapr It's a webapp for searching mailman mailing list archives. I wasn't able to find an app that did that, so I wrote one for my own use.
13:48 shapr It took me about four evenings of spare time to make it work, and it was about 200 lines of code.
13:49 shapr It's gotten a bit bigger since I've had to handle weird special cases like duplicate message-id and broke RFC dates.
13:49 * nothingmuch hopes he lives to see the day when computers will be tought what we want of them
13:49 nothingmuch ad they will design extensible, opaque protocols to handle the mess themselves
13:52 nothingmuch i have a question
13:52 nothingmuch about how something might look in haskell
13:52 nothingmuch this is a project that i'm sort of working on right now
13:52 nothingmuch you could call it a testing automation thing
13:53 nothingmuch but really it is something that must run jobs on abstract resources (remote machines, mostly)
13:53 nothingmuch in a certain order
13:53 nothingmuch and collect results
13:54 shapr Have you seen QuickCheck?
13:54 nothingmuch the resources are objects which normally look like semaphores
13:54 nothingmuch tmoertel's mentioned it many times on his website
13:54 nothingmuch i went through it once
13:54 nothingmuch anywho
13:55 shapr you run a job on a remote machine and want a certain result?
13:55 nothingmuch not only that
13:55 nothingmuch for example, to run a test you need 'resource produc daemon running', and resource '100mb of ram free'
13:55 nothingmuch and resource 'the target platform is xyz'
13:55 nothingmuch a group of resources that can be granted is typically sliced by machine
13:56 nothingmuch i.e. machine X is a sun box, with 8gb of ram, etc
13:56 nothingmuch it also has some funkier resources, like 'product is running'
13:56 nothingmuch which is a resource that when claimed will start a new job, whose resource is 'machine isa same as where i started'
13:56 nothingmuch which requires 'product binaries are available'
13:57 nothingmuch and starts the product
13:57 nothingmuch and so on and so forth
13:57 shapr sounds nifty
13:57 nothingmuch it's now trivial to make nightly builds with this, load balance tests, and so forth
13:57 theorbtwo Sounds an awful lot like apt-get.
13:57 nothingmuch theorbtwo: simpler example: make
13:57 shapr sounds like an interesting cross between design by contract, STM-optimistic locking, and unit testing.
13:57 nothingmuch ooh, it's 16:00
13:57 shapr it's 15:00 here.
13:58 theorbtwo Not sure about simpler.
13:58 nothingmuch time for cigarette & coffee
13:58 nothingmuch anywho, the protocol between resources is 'you were granted', which gives you a grant
13:58 nothingmuch you can claim the grant, or forefit it, and it might be revoked
13:58 nothingmuch this allows jobs which depend on each other's serial execution to share a resource
13:58 nothingmuch and not cause deadlock
13:58 theorbtwo But yeah, same thing.
13:59 nothingmuch when you got a grant, you have a token
13:59 nothingmuch which you return when you're done
13:59 nothingmuch the allocator api is for resources and requests
13:59 nothingmuch can you grant this now?
13:59 nothingmuch can you grant this ever?
13:59 nothingmuch etc
13:59 nothingmuch it's very oop
13:59 nothingmuch and i wondered how it might look in haskell/fp
13:59 nothingmuch but i've got to go for 5 mins
14:00 nothingmuch otherwise Uri's timeline is ruined ;-)
14:00 shapr sounds a lot like STM, but you might also want to look at QuickCheckM
14:02 fayland has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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14:04 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
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14:08 viirya autrijus: ping
14:15 nothingmuch anywho,
14:15 nothingmuch i'm sorry to say this
14:15 nothingmuch but some guy who left work a week ago to study is having his goodbye party
14:15 nothingmuch and he brought sushi
14:15 nothingmuch so i'm introducing further delays, or perhaps a rollback of the conversation ;-)
14:15 flw has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:15 shapr heh
14:15 shapr sushi!
14:16 nothingmuch to reimburse you a bit
14:16 nothingmuch i'll give you a tip
14:16 nothingmuch brahm's first cello sonata
14:16 nothingmuch go get it, it's good for you
14:17 autrijus viirya: pong
14:17 autrijus greetings, folks, btw.
14:17 * autrijus finished backlogging
14:17 shapr hiii autrijus!
14:17 autrijus finally got back from $work
14:17 * shapr boings cheerfully
14:18 autrijus convinced gpg to look like pgp for a complex large application on aix.
14:18 autrijus painful stuff.
14:18 shapr I've seen some wrappers that do that, is that what you used?
14:18 autrijus yeah, I used pgpgpg
14:18 autrijus but it's not a complete emulation
14:18 autrijus so I made it more complete.
14:19 * autrijus still backlogging
14:19 * shapr cleans out the backlog
14:19 theorbtwo Allo, autrijus.
14:20 autrijus yo theorbtwo. how's life?
14:21 viirya autrijus: 'require' prim searchs incs not recursively. you know?
14:21 autrijus why should it search recursively?
14:21 autrijus perl5 does not
14:21 viirya autrijus: causing make test failure now.
14:21 autrijus really.
14:22 tmoertel autrijus: do you want darcs patches sent to perl6-compiler@perl.org ?
14:22 autrijus tmoertel: yes, that is my intention
14:22 autrijus so when I'm not available other committers can freely commit them after some reviews
14:22 theorbtwo Not bad.  A bit worried that some of my solutions to the exercises on YAHT aren't that hot.
14:22 autrijus viirya: what make test failure?
14:22 autrijus theorbtwo: well, they work, that's the important bit :)
14:22 viirya autrijus: make test could work, I mean.
14:23 viirya /could/couldn't/
14:23 autrijus trying to duplicate.
14:23 viirya pugs doesn't find out Test.pm.
14:24 theorbtwo Most of them.  Some I am thus far unable to slove.
14:25 autrijus it all worksforme.
14:25 autrijus viirya: osx?
14:25 viirya autrijus: linux
14:25 autrijus weird. let me boot into fbsd.
14:27 viirya How it works? Now requireInc just search ./Test.pm in code.
14:28 autrijus are you working on the darcs repo?
14:29 viirya autrijus: no, svk.
14:29 autrijus weeird.
14:29 autrijus rebooting to fbsd now, bbiab.
14:39 autrijus rebooted.
14:39 clkao you seem to have a slow computer?
14:39 Limbic_Region that's a neat trick - rebooting without losing IRC connection
14:39 Limbic_Region ;-)
14:39 autrijus Limbic_Region: it's called "GNU Screen"
14:39 autrijus clkao: I have a semifunctional freebsd.
14:39 autrijus got no bandwidth in .cn to set it up
14:39 clkao autrijus: meanwhile, be glad that you use asus.
14:39 clkao http://www.beareyes.com.cn/2/​lib/200503/05/20050305003.htm
14:39 clkao it seems very suitable for, uh, heavy duty users like you
14:40 autrijus viirya: make test worksforme on fbsd.
14:40 statico <
14:40 statico clkao: as long as it's asus with via chipsets, not nvidia...
14:40 autrijus viirya: can you start from a clean tree?
14:40 iblechbot has joined #perl6
14:40 autrijus I'll do the same.
14:42 viirya autrijus: All I do is 'make test'. It doesn't work.
14:42 autrijus viirya: did you do "make purge"?
14:42 autrijus then "perl Makefile.PL" etc?
14:42 viirya why doing make pruge?
14:43 autrijus because a certain ingy broke the PugsConfig.pm process twice
14:43 viirya /pruge/purge/
14:43 autrijus I seem to remember that there's patch somewhere to hook PugsConfig.pm as part of "make" dependency
14:43 viirya autrijus: I check out a new copy of pugs.
14:44 autrijus yeah, theorbtwo had a patch.
14:44 autrijus theorbtwo: are you not a committer?
14:44 autrijus theorbtwo: would you like to be one and commit it by yourself?
14:46 autrijus mm -O3.
14:46 autrijus I think the gain on making tests is little
14:46 autrijus and the loss on recompilation is larger by comparison
14:46 autrijus as has been shown here
14:47 autrijus so I'll refrain from making optimization the default.
14:47 autrijus I will, however, add an "optimized" target.
14:47 autrijus so you can do "make optimized" and be happy.
14:48 fayland has joined #perl6
14:48 autrijus hi fayland!
14:48 autrijus I understand you failed making pugs?
14:48 Coke_ has joined #perl6
14:48 Coke_ seen obra
14:48 autrijus hi Coke_ :)
14:49 Coke_ whoops. wrong window. Hi, autrijus.
14:49 fayland ya,let me do it again
14:49 hcchien fayland++  # convert the doc to utf-8
14:49 fayland wait a moment
14:49 fayland :)
14:50 Coke_ hey, autrijus - can you add <a name> markers to http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pug​s/trunk/docs/01Overview.html ?
14:50 autrijus Coke_: I'd gladly accept patches that does that :)
14:50 Coke_ (I'd like to link to "What was the revised bootstrapping plan?" from parrotcode.org)
14:51 fayland autrijus: NMAKE : fatal error U1052: file 'Makefile' not found
14:51 Coke_ is pugscode.org in the same repo as parrotcode.org ?
14:51 autrijus mm gugod volunteered to kwidify PA01
14:51 fayland autrijus, just 'svn up' and perl makefile.pl nmake test,and return that
14:51 autrijus Coke_: no, it is not.
14:51 autrijus fayland: rename your C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio*
14:51 autrijus or just remove that from your path
14:52 autrijus and run perl Makefile.PL again.
14:52 fayland ok.
14:53 autrijus viirya: so it works now?
14:53 autrijus I've committed theorbtwo's patch as r525
14:53 autrijus you no longer need to do "make purge" again.
14:53 autrijus also, for people who's into fast pugs, "make optimized" works now.
14:53 stevan has joined #perl6
14:54 autrijus greetings stevan-san.
14:55 fayland autrijus, it doesn't work. the same result.
14:55 autrijus got some time to help me to redo the PA01 chunk of "Is there a CPAN for Perl 6 modules?" ?
14:55 autrijus fayland: so nmake is still in your path?
14:55 stevan morning autrijus (at least morning for me that is)
14:55 autrijus fayland: try to find out where is nmake.exe and remove it from path.
14:55 hcchien hmm...., test failed on op/not
14:56 fayland I have two nmake, one at c:\usr\bin,another just removed
14:56 Steve_p Yeah, op still needs to be changed per Larry's comments
14:56 stevan hcchien: I think luqui un_todo-ed the tests which are bugs and not un-implemented
14:56 * Steve_p thought he TODO'd those
14:56 autrijus fayland: ok, remove c:\usr\bin from your path as well.
14:56 stevan autrijus: are you asking if I want to help on PA01?
14:56 autrijus fayland: or rename nmake.exe
14:57 autrijus stevan: yeah. if you don't feel like doing it, I'll ask for ingy's help :)
14:57 * autrijus is in code mode not docs mode
14:57 hcchien so I should ignore the failed and make install? :)
14:57 autrijus hcchien: yes, that's the plan
14:57 nothingmuch yummy
14:57 stevan autrijus: I can do that, sure
14:57 nothingmuch morning stevan
14:57 stevan hey nothingmuch
14:57 nothingmuch we had wine too
14:57 hcchien autrijus: not marked as 'TODO'?
14:57 nothingmuch =)
14:57 autrijus stevan++
14:57 nothingmuch (i had wine leftovers)
14:57 autrijus hcchien: luqui's idea is that TODO means todo
14:58 autrijus i.e.
14:58 autrijus missing features
14:58 autrijus and misimplemented stuff should fail
14:58 autrijus to give them higher priority.
14:58 autrijus now I'd gladly accept a patch to Makefile.PL that says that.
14:58 scw What's the easiest way to test single .t file?
14:58 autrijus i.e. "Now, type 'make test' to test -- some tests may fail; that's okay inbetween releases... etc"
14:58 autrijus scw: prove.
14:59 autrijus env HARNESS_PERL=./pugs prove t/op/foo.t
14:59 fayland autrijus, it returns cann't find nmake and lwp from microsoft, then return the same.
14:59 theorbtwo autrijus, thanks for the offer of committer bits, but I'd rather wait until I write a patch that just goes in.
15:01 stevan autrijus: where is the original PA01? docs/01Overview.html?
15:01 scw Seems the @INC is not corrected, I got: NonTerm "/usr/share/perl/5.8/Test.pm" (line 31, column 1)
15:01 autrijus stevan: yup, that is the one.
15:01 autrijus scw: "make purge" ?
15:02 autrijus scw: oh, prove?
15:02 fayland autrijus: Fetching 'Nmake15.exe' from download.microsoft.com...
15:02 scw autrijus: ya
15:02 fayland autrijus: that's right?
15:02 autrijus fayland: yeah, so Makefile is really not there for nmake. that's weird.
15:02 autrijus fayland: are you under cygwin?
15:02 viirya autrijus: certainly weird.
15:02 scw autrijus: I used  'HARNESS_PERL=./pugs prove t/op/assign.t'  and got such error..
15:02 viirya autrijus: it doesn't work.
15:02 fayland no cygwin.
15:03 theorbtwo Why not just ./pugs t/op/assign.t ?
15:03 stevan scw: I am getting the same thing "NonTerm "/System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/Test.pm" (line 31, column 1)"
15:03 viirya autrijus: complaining Can't locate Test.pm
15:03 viirya autrijus: stevan's problem is that.
15:03 fayland autrijus: but i can see makefile in the folder
15:03 nothingmuch mine too, btw
15:03 autrijus scw: add this
15:03 autrijus PERL6LIB=./ext/Test/lib
15:04 nothingmuch s/\./\$PWD/; # works under all shells, less problematic
15:04 scw autrijus: This works :)
15:04 autrijus fayland: nmake /f Makefile
15:04 nothingmuch stevan: go write yourself down in pugs.kwiki.org/?OSXPeople
15:04 viirya autrijus: after adding that, it surely works.
15:05 viirya autrijus: but why not search all dictionaries under Incs.
15:05 fayland autrijus: NMAKE : fatal error U1052: file 'Makefile' not found
15:06 fayland autrijus, still the same
15:06 autrijus viirya: i'd argue it's NotABug then. inconvenience, yes, but not a bug.
15:06 autrijus fayland: nmake /f c:\absolute\path\to\Makefile
15:07 viirya autrijus: It's your intention to just add module one by one?
15:07 autrijus viirya: if you do "make install"
15:07 autrijus then it will just pick things up.
15:07 autrijus before "make install", yes.
15:07 autrijus I'll remove PERL5LIB and PERLLIB from the search path now.
15:08 viirya autrijus: ok. see.
15:08 nothingmuch stevan: did you write a test for your mail titled 'Bugs' of yesterday?
15:08 fayland autrijus: no help.
15:08 fayland autrijus: :(
15:08 stevan nothingmuch: yes, t/op/sub_return_values.t has some tests for that
15:08 autrijus fayland: that is a bit too weird.
15:08 nothingmuch stevan++
15:09 fayland autrijus: no body else met that?
15:09 autrijus nope.
15:09 nothingmuch somehow i missed it in the svn commit RSS
15:09 autrijus fayland: ok, try these commands:
15:09 hcchien should we merge t/0*.t to t/Synopsis ?
15:09 * hcchien is back to pugs. :p
15:10 autrijus perl -Iutil -MPugsConfig -e "PugsConfig->write_config_modules" > src\Config.hs
15:10 autrijus perl Makefile.PL -version
15:10 autrijus ghc --make -o pugs src/Main.hs -isrc
15:11 autrijus fayland: try the three commands.
15:11 fayland ok, wait a moment
15:12 autrijus hcchien: that was the plan, but the new, much more precise layouts seems to be overlapping a lot with the original Synopsis plan.
15:12 autrijus i.e. t/syntax/ t/magicals/ etc
15:12 alexe has left
15:12 autrijus so I'm not at all sure how to link the tests with synopses.
15:12 hcchien autrijus: yes, I saw that. and I think it woule be better. :)
15:13 autrijus except with the new regime
15:13 autrijus we no longer know which synopsis paragraph is tested
15:13 stevan autrijus: I was thinking of writing up a test document
15:13 autrijus and which is not.
15:13 autrijus stevan: elaborate?
15:13 hcchien I am thinking about this issue, too.
15:13 stevan one that would describe the contents of each test file, so people would be able to find where a test goes better
15:13 autrijus stevan: it is best to annotate synopsis with test file names, I think.
15:14 stevan autrijus: that works too
15:14 fayland autrijus: Can't locate object method "write_config_modules" via package "PugsConfig" at -e
15:14 fayland line 1.
15:14 autrijus because to annotate with actual tests is cumbersome
15:14 autrijus so maybe just add random =head3 lines
15:14 autrijus or other lines
15:14 autrijus to the synopses pods?
15:14 autrijus i.e. annotate paragraphs with =head3 (untested)
15:15 autrijus and for things that has tests, annotate with =head3 t/op/zip.t
15:15 autrijus or something. that's just a wild idea.
15:15 stevan autrijus: ok I will start on that after the PA01 stuff
15:15 autrijus stevan: woot!
15:15 autrijus stevan: if you do that, maybe just put a README to t/
15:15 autrijus and say "see Synopsis/*.pod for our coverage statement"
15:16 autrijus and then start annotating *.pod under there.
15:16 scw autrijus: Hope my commit doesn't break any thing and I have to go home now, 'night :)
15:16 autrijus 'nite!
15:16 nothingmuch i disagree
15:16 autrijus scw++
15:16 autrijus nothingmuch: cool. elaborate?
15:16 fayland autrijus: maybe just write_config_module ; no s
15:16 nothingmuch that is hard to make a table like analysis
15:16 nothingmuch featurex- yes
15:16 autrijus ooh. wow!
15:16 nothingmuch feature z- no
15:16 autrijus "Assigning to slice of array now works and some tests on this is added.
15:16 autrijus fayland: right!
15:17 autrijus nothingmuch: but "feature x" is complex
15:17 stevan nothingmuch: so are you thinking a feature matrix is better?
15:17 nothingmuch i don't know
15:17 autrijus it is best if we can cross reference.
15:17 stevan nothingmuch: I have a deal for you
15:17 fayland autrijus: now it's compiling
15:17 stevan I will start with annotating the Synopsis
15:17 nothingmuch i think we should make grep -r on *.pod easily recover:
15:17 nothingmuch a. what's covered
15:17 nothingmuch b. what's to cover
15:18 nothingmuch c. the things name, for further, or location in file
15:18 autrijus scw++ # slice array assignment. fantastic
15:18 nothingmuch for further grepping, that is
15:18 stevan nothingmuch: how can we get that out of grep?
15:18 nothingmuch maybe grep -B or -A depending where you put that
15:19 nothingmuch or =head1 Smart Matching [unimplemented, tested]
15:19 fayland autrijus: now i got '==     Version: 6.0.10 (r525) ====================================='
15:19 fayland autrijus: done.
15:19 autrijus fayland: ok... I guess that works.
15:19 autrijus fayland: but you still need to fix the nmake issue to run the test suite. hrmph.
15:19 nothingmuch perhaps [pugs status: unimplemented, tested] for more uniquy extraction
15:19 * autrijus wonders if it's too late to switch to Build.PL
15:19 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
15:20 fayland autrijus: i have no idea how to fix it. :(
15:20 nothingmuch i doubt it is
15:20 nothingmuch except you might make people angry
15:20 autrijus just "[pugs: todo, t/op/zip.t]" is fine
15:20 fayland autrijus: it works in other modules.
15:20 autrijus fayland: bizzare.
15:20 nothingmuch autrijus: i agree
15:21 autrijus =pugs todo t/op/zip.t
15:21 autrijus or, less bizzare:
15:21 autrijus =head3 pugs todo t/op/zip.t
15:22 metaperl has joined #perl6
15:22 autrijus array.t is now all pass.
15:22 fayland autrijus: see u tomorrow. i must go sleep cause i must get up early to have lessons
15:23 autrijus fayland: okay. we'll figure out the problem later.
15:23 fayland autrijus: okay. bye.
15:23 fayland has quit IRC ()
15:24 ninereasons has joined #perl6
15:25 autrijus hi ninereasons.
15:25 ninereasons hi
15:26 nothingmuch beh, sorry
15:26 nothingmuch discussion about something interrupted
15:26 nothingmuch autrijus: i think it should be on the original =head$x of the docs
15:27 nothingmuch and perhaps preceding blocks of example code
15:27 autrijus maybe. we need to mark it though.
15:27 autrijus B<pugs todo t/op/zip.t>
15:27 autrijus works for you?
15:28 nothingmuch i think so
15:28 stevan autrijus, nothingmuch: why don
15:28 stevan t
15:28 stevan I just start going through it
15:28 nothingmuch i can help, but not for a few hours... when i'll get home
15:28 stevan because I am thinking that we may have plenty done which are not covered in the Synoposis
15:28 autrijus hey.
15:28 stevan since the Synopsis are not 100%
15:29 autrijus let us abuse S<>, ok?
15:29 autrijus S<todo t/op/zip.t>
15:29 autrijus and just grep for 'S<' ;)
15:29 stevan is S<> valid POD?
15:29 nothingmuch heh
15:29 autrijus it is.
15:29 stevan nice
15:29 autrijus it means <nobr>.
15:29 nothingmuch that's like mucking html with &nbsp;
15:29 nothingmuch and grepping for that
15:29 nothingmuch ;-)
15:29 stevan LOL
15:29 autrijus bwahaha.
15:29 stevan ok S<> it is
15:30 autrijus yeah. and I think for things we have done and synopsis talks nothing about
15:30 autrijus maybe we add something like
15:30 nothingmuch we could also do Z<>pugs blahZ<>
15:30 autrijus S<unspecced t/op/foo.t>
15:30 autrijus nothingmuch: ugly!
15:30 nothingmuch oops, i forgot the ;-)
15:30 autrijus :)
15:30 theorbtwo Why not put comments next to the tests, rather then the other way around?
15:31 nothingmuch that is mostly done, i think
15:31 nothingmuch except where tests are two synopses at once
15:31 autrijus theorbtwo: both needs to be done.
15:31 stevan theorbtwo: I wanted to make a test overview basically
15:31 nothingmuch see for example t/op/smartmatch.t
15:31 autrijus the Syn->Tests directly is the currently lacking one though.
15:31 stevan so people can easily see what is in where
15:31 nothingmuch it's pretty verbose that way
15:32 autrijus and like nothingmuch said, tests are less structured than syns
15:32 autrijus so it makes sense to link from the structured one to unstructured ones.
15:32 autrijus I think, anyway
15:32 nothingmuch perhaps for further greppability, and goodness in general, S<unimplemented, F<t/op/blah.t>>
15:32 nothingmuch err, awkability
15:32 _metaperl has joined #perl6
15:32 autrijus S<unimplemented t/op/blah.t> is good enough, really :)
15:33 nothingmuch i'm just getting carried away
15:33 * autrijus wants to keep the entry barrier as low as possible
15:33 stevan I agree, if we need more we can figure it out then
15:33 autrijus stevan: the map can then be generated by a inverted index script.
15:33 nothingmuch we could expand that, to S< blah F<blah»
15:33 autrijus the tests -> syn map that is
15:34 * stevan dashes off to get some more coffee
15:34 * nothingmuch should shut up and get back to work, or not get back to work but actually do something
15:35 autrijus :)
15:36 justatheory has joined #perl6
15:39 nothingmuch autrijus: did you also stub !~?
15:39 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
15:39 _metaperl is now known as metaperl
15:40 autrijus nothingmuch: no. want to do that for me?
15:40 autrijus just do what I did with ~~ and replace eq with ne.
15:40 nothingmuch i'll look at your diff and try to repl
15:40 hlafarge has joined #perl6
15:40 nothingmuch btw, is my %hash = (
15:40 autrijus no need to diff
15:41 nothingmuch "foo", bar",
15:41 autrijus just look at Prim.hs
15:41 autrijus and copy the two lines that contains ~~
15:41 nothingmuch "blah", "blah",
15:41 nothingmuch );
15:41 nothingmuch still allowed?
15:41 nothingmuch (what about parsing it?)
15:41 nothingmuch (it = !~)
15:42 autrijus it's already parsed.
15:42 nothingmuch goody
15:42 autrijus nothingmuch: I think it's still allowed, aye
15:42 nothingmuch it doesn't parse
15:42 nothingmuch new test =)
15:43 autrijus let's see if I beat you to it :)
15:43 autrijus r530
15:43 autrijus should be now parsed.
15:43 * nothingmuch sticks tounge out
15:43 nothingmuch no fair
15:43 * autrijus smiles
15:44 dada autrijus: which time plan do you have to implement unary * (the "splat" operator)?
15:44 * theorbtwo ponders...
15:45 autrijus dada: I had not thought about it much, to be honest. definitely before 6.2.0.
15:45 theorbtwo What's the time-plan for implementing "Haskell is the XS of pugs"?
15:45 autrijus theorbtwo: Kwid.hs?
15:45 autrijus it should happen as soon as ingy and I gets some pairing time.
15:45 autrijus which is, at latest, on YAPC.
15:46 dada autrijus: well, if it's more than 2 weeks from now, I will try to give a stab at it. if it's sooner, I don't even try :-)
15:46 autrijus the final week of march
15:46 autrijus dada: please give a stab at it!
15:46 autrijus I don't plan to see 6.2.0 before YAPC::Taipei.
15:46 theorbtwo Kwid is trying to muck with the parser, though... I was thinking more in terms of exporting a couple of functions.
15:46 autrijus theorbtwo: nono, kwid has its own parser...
15:46 nothingmuch isn't 6.2.0 two weeks from now? ;-)
15:46 autrijus nothingmuch: who said that? ;)
15:46 autrijus theorbtwo: so it's just exporting the usual functions.
15:47 nothingmuch just kidding, autrijus =)
15:48 * nothingmuch twiddles fingers, waiting for pugs to finish compiling
15:48 autrijus != in haskell is /=
15:48 autrijus btw.
15:48 autrijus think math. :)
15:48 nothingmuch i thought it was an alias for the perlop
15:48 nothingmuch i just saw it break =)
15:49 autrijus see "ne" above =)
15:50 * nothingmuch dances the svn commit dance
15:51 Steve_p heh
15:52 * Steve_p forgot to do the dance last night
15:53 stevan autrijus: I am still getting the problem with 'make test'
15:53 stevan cant locate Test.pm stuff
15:53 autrijus stevan: "make purge" not curing things?
15:53 stevan no
15:53 autrijus most bizzare. fresh checkout?
15:53 stevan r531
15:54 stevan I will try again
15:54 autrijus I mean, raze things
15:54 autrijus and "svn up"
15:54 autrijus rm -rf *; svn up
15:54 autrijus or, if using svk, rm -rf *; svk revert -R .
15:55 nothingmuch can you assign pairs to a hash yet?
15:55 autrijus mm !~ works now
15:55 autrijus nothingmuch++
15:55 nothingmuch yeah, that was really hard
15:55 nothingmuch =P
15:56 nothingmuch i was told what to do, and it was two full lines!
15:56 autrijus gosh!
15:56 autrijus that's almost a dissertation right there!
15:56 * nothingmuch notes that ghc is /still/ compiling Eval.hs
15:57 * autrijus notes that "make optimized" is bad for your health
15:57 nothingmuch it's better afterwords
15:57 nothingmuch my laptop is 400mhz
15:58 nothingmuch eval '%hash4 = ("key" => "value")';
15:58 nothingmuch this is fatal
15:58 autrijus since it's a casting error.
15:58 autrijus wow bizzare.
15:58 autrijus looking into it
15:59 nothingmuch ok(eval '
15:59 nothingmuch my %hash = (
15:59 nothingmuch "foo", "bar",
15:59 nothingmuch "blah, "blah",
15:59 nothingmuch );
15:59 nothingmuch 1;
15:59 nothingmuch ', "expression parsed (well, lexed)");
15:59 autrijus yeah, I'm looking into it. I think I know what's wrong. sec.
16:00 nothingmuch nok... VError "\nunexpected \"b\"\nexpecting term postfix, operator, \",\" or \")\"" (NonTerm "<eval>" (line 4, column 25))
16:00 nothingmuch err, append 'say $!' after the test
16:00 nothingmuch it's a different thing
16:01 nothingmuch fixed "blah -> "blah", still error, quite similar
16:02 nothingmuch say ~%hash -> Fail: cannot cast as Str: VHash (MkHash [(VStr "blah",VStr "blah"),(VStr "foo",VStr "bar")])
16:03 nothingmuch should i test for stringification in t/hash.t?
16:03 autrijus sounds good
16:03 nothingmuch i don't know what it looks like, i just know that it will
16:04 stevan autrijus: it seems to be looking for blib6/ which is not there
16:05 autrijus weird. it is there for me.
16:05 autrijus your ExtUtils::MakeMaker version?
16:06 stevan 6.12
16:07 autrijus mm 6.17 here.
16:07 stevan ok, I will update it
16:07 autrijus so when you do "make"
16:07 stevan make works
16:08 autrijus things are generated in blib/lib?
16:08 autrijus instead of blib6/lib/
16:08 stevan its make test that messes up
16:08 stevan yeah looks like it
16:08 autrijus post your Makefile's
16:08 autrijus test_dynamic :: pure_all
16:08 autrijus section.
16:08 nothingmuch does anybody know what the output of hash interpolation will look like?
16:08 stevan ok one sec
16:09 stevan very strange
16:09 stevan it is making blib6 in the parent directory
16:09 autrijus wtf...
16:09 stevan yeah
16:09 stevan odd
16:10 arcady nothingmuch "By default, keys and values are separated by tab characters, and pairs are terminated by newlines." - S02
16:10 nothingmuch how is this related to osx is what i want to know
16:10 stevan this is the test_dynamic stuff:
16:10 stevan PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 $(FULLPERLRUN) "-Iinc" "-MExtUtils::Command::MM" "-e" "ENV->{HARNESS_PERL} = q*/Users/stevan/Projects/PU​GS/pugs/blib/script/pugs*; ENV->{PERL6LIB} = q*/Users/stevan/Projects/PUGS/pugs/blib6/lib*; test_harness($(TEST_VERBOSE), 'inc', '$(INST_LIB)', '$(INST_ARCHLIB)')" $(TEST_FILES)
16:10 nothingmuch i have it too
16:10 nothingmuch arcady++
16:10 autrijus weird. what perl has 6.12 as EUMM?
16:12 stevan Module::Install::Pugs.pm line 9 is "$self->set_blib('../../blib6');"
16:12 stevan that seems like it might be the problem
16:12 stevan maybe that should only be one ../
16:13 * nothingmuch assumes that you subclass Hash and stringify it otherwise then it's diff
16:13 nothingmuch can't test till 6.2.0
16:13 nothingmuch eval '~%hash9'
16:13 nothingmuch that's also fatal
16:13 nothingmuch cannot cast into [VPair]: VSub..
16:13 autrijus stevan: how about taking an absolute path at that point?
16:13 autrijus nothingmuch: yup, I'm aware of it now.
16:14 nothingmuch just in case it might be unrelated, autrijus
16:14 nothingmuch Tom Waits++
16:14 stevan autrijus: what do you mean by absolute path? (my Makefile skills are limited)
16:14 stevan Boogie Down Productions++
16:14 nothingmuch google++
16:16 autrijus stevan: I'll deal. sec
16:16 nothingmuch ah, hip hop
16:16 nothingmuch that's why i never heard of it
16:16 * nothingmuch doesn't know anything about hiphop
16:16 nothingmuch a teeny bit about pop
16:16 metaperl stevan, you are too old to like BDP
16:16 hlafarge has quit IRC ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'")
16:16 metaperl stevan check out my hip hop album: http://diskjockeybyrd.iuma.com
16:16 nothingmuch knowlege stops at 1999 or so, when sister stopped watching TV that much
16:17 stevan metaperl: not true, i am too young
16:17 metaperl oops
16:17 metaperl document contains no data
16:17 metaperl my album is gone from the web... sigh
16:18 stevan metaperl: its working for me, but very very slowly
16:19 nothingmuch autrijus: is t/syntax/lf_in_list.t, which assigns (\n"foo", "bar\n"blah", "blah"\n); to %hash a todo, or a bug?
16:20 autrijus nothingmuch: I think it's a todo. not sure
16:20 nothingmuch todo then
16:21 autrijus nod. still fixing blib6 issue.
16:21 autrijus for web app writers:
16:21 autrijus http://cocoon.apache.org/2.​1/userdocs/flow/index.html
16:21 autrijus I intend Pugs to be able to do that (and more) on 6.2.
16:21 autrijus (that's for another $project)
16:22 metaperl Perl has something called Contize
16:22 nothingmuch uhuh
16:22 autrijus and Continuity
16:22 metaperl on CPAN
16:22 nothingmuch brock/awwaiid does it
16:22 autrijus which are badly broken.
16:22 nothingmuch he is a very cool guy
16:22 theorbtwo (And to think, I knew him way back when.)
16:22 nothingmuch says he will hack pugs once he grows out of OcaML a bit
16:22 nothingmuch Ocaml? OCAML?
16:22 nothingmuch beh
16:23 autrijus Contize works only on shallow real hashes.
16:23 nothingmuch metaperl: how could they not be broken? perl is not pure
16:23 autrijus not objects or control flows in general.
16:23 autrijus well, javascript is not pure either ;)
16:23 autrijus and yet Cocoon/Rhino does that beautifully.
16:23 metaperl this cocoon thing is powerful
16:23 nothingmuch i think Coro can be used to butcher that
16:24 metaperl but it's Java based, not javascript AFAICT
16:24 autrijus nothingmuch: no, I hacked that and talked to Coro author.
16:24 nothingmuch in a way that really works
16:24 nothingmuch ah
16:24 autrijus metaperl: no, the continuation engine is javascript.
16:24 nothingmuch just speculating
16:24 autrijus I tried an attempt in perl5 to do continuations
16:24 autrijus with regex.
16:24 autrijus and another attempt with $^D.
16:24 autrijus both works to a degree, but are super-fragile.
16:25 nothingmuch brb
16:25 autrijus I'll spare you the details :)
16:25 autrijus err, $^P, not $^D.
16:25 autrijus but Pugs is pure CPS.
16:25 autrijus and has a small enough AST
16:25 nnunley has joined #perl6
16:25 autrijus so should be easy to contize.
16:26 autrijus hi nnunley. I'm daydreaming here about http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/us​erdocs/flow/continuations.html in Pugs :)
16:27 metaperl will you be able to hijack the javascript part of cocoon directly?
16:27 metaperl with no mods?
16:28 autrijus Inline::Rhino? sure.
16:28 autrijus but I want to write the logic in perl, not javascript!
16:29 autrijus (although javascript is actually a neat little language to write logics.)
16:31 nnunley autrijus: Nice.  Have you looked at seaside?
16:31 * nothingmuch sits down...o O ( now what should I do? )... ... ...( go home! )
16:31 autrijus nnunley: yeah, and wash, and borges, and lots of other things.
16:32 * nothingmuch writes 'irc log ca. 18:30' on his hand
16:32 autrijus (and the LL* talks)
16:32 nothingmuch ciao!
16:32 metaperl the main wash site is down. do you have a link to seaside?
16:32 autrijus nothingmuch: mmm Memento
16:32 nnunley http://seaside.st/
16:32 nothingmuch oh btw, thanks for the STM article, autrijus!
16:32 autrijus http://beta4.com/seaside2/
16:32 nothingmuch t/syntax/lf_in_list.t comitted
16:32 autrijus nothingmuch: np :) glad you enjoyed it. I think STM is really good.
16:32 autrijus nothingmuch++
16:32 nnunley autrijus: That redirects to the seaside.st site.
16:32 metaperl I say forget YAHT. Go straight to this algorithms book
16:32 autrijus ahh. ok
16:32 nothingmuch oh, lastly
16:32 nothingmuch did you look at the private msgs i sent you?
16:33 autrijus the algorithm book is wonderufl.
16:33 wolverian hrm, how do I specify that a sub doesn't return anything in the sub signature?
16:33 autrijus nothingmuch: I did. It looks vaguely like doing a combinator library in perl5. I'm not sure it's my forte.
16:34 autrijus wolverian: returns Void
16:34 autrijus (not sure, just a guess.)
16:34 nothingmuch i was actually thinking of doing it in haskell and perl together
16:34 nothingmuch each side for it's forte
16:34 autrijus ah. that could be fun. I think you can write it up a bit and solicit suggestions on #haskell
16:34 autrijus there's several such combinator libraries in haskell already.
16:35 nothingmuch right now it's low on the task circular buffer/stack thingy
16:35 nothingmuch it's a dependancy of pugs hacking which is a dependancy of haskell
16:35 nothingmuch and it's also a dependancy on SICP
16:35 nothingmuch (finishing it, that is)
16:35 nothingmuch and prolog
16:35 autrijus mmm #perl6 is apparently full of ADD folks.
16:35 autrijus <- being one
16:35 nothingmuch add?
16:37 autrijus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADD
16:37 * nothingmuch finished packing... ciao!
16:37 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
16:38 autrijus stevan: blib6 should be fixed.
16:38 Steve_p Since I just ran across it and wished for something like it in Perl, is there a function composition operator/function in Perl 6?
16:38 stevan autrijus: just svn updated, will let you know
16:39 metaperl maybe we need a thin layer between haskell and perl
16:39 autrijus perl5?
16:39 Steve_p heh
16:39 metaperl so function composition, etc. dont need re-implementation
16:39 Steve_p Inline::GHC :)
16:40 autrijus sub infix:<o> (Code &f, Code &g) { sub { g(f(@_)) } }
16:40 autrijus not quite.
16:41 autrijus in ruby it's
16:41 autrijus  class Proc
16:41 autrijus    def *(other)
16:41 autrijus      raise unless arity == other.arity
16:41 autrijus      proc {|*a| self.call(other.call(*a))}
16:41 autrijus    end
16:41 autrijus  end
16:42 autrijus the proposal to implement it in Ruby was rejected:
16:42 autrijus "A very few people would use this feature."
16:42 autrijus thanks, matz :)
16:44 Steve_p I was thinking a case like MY::postamble in EU::MM could easily use it
16:44 stevan autrijus: its working now
16:44 * Steve_p tires of hacking the symbol table :)
16:44 autrijus cool!
16:44 autrijus Steve_p: post to the idle speculation list!
16:44 Steve_p p6l? :)
16:44 autrijus yeah :)
16:44 autrijus that's larry's words, not mine
16:45 Steve_p That's why I have my questions in test cases tied to a specific Larry email :)
16:45 autrijus heh heh.
16:46 autrijus mm I think this p6 summary is the longest to date.
16:47 autrijus clearly we're doing something right :)
16:47 Steve_p It's been a busy couple of weeks :)
16:47 * Steve_p is still trying to catch up from being sick
16:53 * Coke_ has yet to see a summary.
16:54 autrijus http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/278
16:54 Coke_ I see pugs has a queue at rt.perl.org/rt3/ now.
16:55 autrijus it does.
16:55 autrijus had not announced it yet
16:55 justatheory has quit IRC ()
16:55 autrijus still needs to do some mailgate foo.
16:56 autrijus (and I like using tests as tickets :))
16:56 autrijus (but I'll announce it before YAPC.)
16:56 dadaumpa has joined #Perl6
16:56 * Steve_p remembers to checnk for spam in Perl5
16:57 dada has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:00 dadaumpa is now known as dada
17:01 Coke_ sorry, didn't mean to steal your thunder. It's already out there, though. (Note, there's ALSO a perl6 queue. someone explain THAT to me. =-)
17:04 Steve_p I thought it was there for questions
17:04 * Steve_p takes a peek
17:06 Steve_p Hmmm...test patches, patches to languages/perl6
17:06 Steve_p Hey, , there's ALSO a perl6 queue. someone
17:06 Steve_p               explain THAT to me. =-)
17:06 Steve_p Crap
17:06 Steve_p Thu Mar 04 17:30:00 2004  coke - Queue changed from parrot to perl6
17:06 Steve_p :)
17:08 Steve_p It seems like Perl 6 is all languages/perl6 related tickets
17:08 ingy hola
17:08 autrijus wow, look at #21679
17:09 autrijus that is very far along
17:09 autrijus but I can't seem to download the attachment?
17:09 autrijus it's all \x00
17:10 autrijus the .tar.gz one is good
17:11 Steve_p And it's all over two years old :-/
17:12 autrijus and that has never landed
17:13 autrijus so is bitrotten
17:13 Steve_p :(
17:14 autrijus use inline 'Haskell' 'some code here';
17:14 Steve_p heh
17:14 autrijus use extension 'Haskell' 'file.hs';
17:14 autrijus I'm just mimicking that patch.
17:14 autrijus not a bad idea.
17:14 autrijus ingy: what do you think? :)
17:15 autrijus that's sad. if that patch has landed and polished a bit
17:16 autrijus language/perl6 could've been bootstrapping :-(
17:16 Steve_p I'll have to check to see how bitrotten these patches are
17:16 autrijus is language/perl6/ still working?
17:16 autrijus I mean, compiles, passes tests and all
17:19 Steve_p Good question :-/
17:19 Steve_p Coke_?
17:19 ingy well I think you should hust be able to write modules in haskell with no .pm file required and just `use` them like any other
17:20 ingy I plan on implementing the plumbing during yapc
17:20 autrijus woot!
17:20 autrijus let us totally do that
17:20 autrijus starting from Kwid!
17:20 theorbtwo Much coolness.
17:20 ingy and then yaml
17:20 autrijus and then yaml.
17:20 autrijus that way haskell and pugs will have YAML in no time
17:20 * ingy does the happpy dance
17:20 * autrijus too
17:21 Steve_p and then the breakfast cereals...Ooop, this isn't the "Holy Grail" ;)
17:21 autrijus I also happen to think YAML can help us fix the AST.
17:21 autrijus fix, as in, enrich the types.
17:22 autrijus especially references and co.
17:22 autrijus ingy: YAML can't serialize infinite data structures, right? :)
17:22 ingy autrijus: sure it can :P
17:22 autrijus ok... give me a YAML serialization for the fibonacci series...
17:24 ingy as long as it can be expressed in terms of a scalar sequnce or mapping
17:24 * autrijus predices explosive productivity during the 2 weeks of YAPC::Taipei
17:24 Steve_p YAPC::Taipei is two weeks long?
17:24 ingy but you could come up with a way to do it
17:24 autrijus Steve_p: the conf itself is 2 days; but the prehackathon and posthackathon is 2 weeks in total.
17:31 ingy I hope I have time to write my presentation on Kwiki
17:31 ingy :p
17:31 vladtz has joined #perl6
17:32 hcchien ingy: do you send me your schedule? :)
17:32 Limbic_Region I parsed that wrong ingy - I read it as "I hope I have time for a quickie"
17:33 ingy hcchien: I think so
17:33 * ingy always has time for a kwiki
17:34 * hcchien is checking
17:34 ingy hcchien: you mean my flight schedule, right?
17:36 ingy Dear Brian,                                                                    
17:36 ingy                                                                                
17:36 ingy Congratulations! You have been accepted as a presenter for                      
17:36 ingy the O'Reilly Open Source Convention 2005 at the Oregon Convention Center,      
17:36 ingy Portland, Oregon, August 01, 2005 - August 05, 2005.                            
17:36 ingy                                                                                
17:36 ingy The following has been accepted as a 45 minute session for the event:          
17:36 ingy                                                                                
17:36 ingy "Apocalypse Now! - Perl6 is Here Today"                                        
17:36 ingy sorry :(
17:36 autrijus woooot!
17:36 autrijus ingy++
17:36 autrijus ingy++
17:37 dada ingy**
17:37 autrijus mmm ICFP deadline is 13th april
17:37 larsen I humbly add my ingy++
17:37 obra ingy: woot
17:37 ingy I guess that means rewriting Spork in Perl6
17:38 autrijus "Practice and experience: Functional programming in education and industry."
17:38 autrijus somebody remind me to submit the proposal before YAPC::Taipei hackathons are over :)
17:39 hcchien ingy: yes. so I didn't see that before. :)
17:39 obra autrijus: will try
17:39 * autrijus wonders when will euroscon start to call for papers
17:39 dada autrijus: well, the CFP for the Italian Perl Workshop is already out :-)
17:40 obra does euroscon have a date yet?
17:40 * obra still hasn't heard back from ORA about OSCon
17:40 autrijus not sure.
17:40 autrijus when is italian perl workshop?
17:40 rgs obra: october 17-20 it seems
17:40 dada autrijus: 23-24 june
17:40 autrijus icfp is September 26-28
17:40 autrijus so I'll shape my schedule around that
17:41 autrijus AOSS is early september @ srilanka or cambodia
17:41 * obra ponders early october eurohackathon
17:41 autrijus so euroscon fits just fine
17:41 autrijus obra: count me in :)
17:41 clkao whoot
17:42 autrijus june is a bit early.
17:42 obra autrijus: was hoping for that
17:42 clkao round world hacking tour again?
17:42 obra we'll need tshirts
17:42 hcchien hehe
17:42 webmind has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:42 shapr autrijus: you're going to ICFP05?
17:42 hcchien I want to go to Ams, too.
17:42 autrijus shapr: I am.
17:42 autrijus if my proposal is accepted, that is.
17:43 autrijus if not, I'll try to.
17:43 shapr hmm
17:43 autrijus I got mail from wadler yesterday :)
17:43 autrijus asking me to list pugs on his fp-in-realworld page.
17:45 shapr heh, cool
17:47 dada I'm afraid I MUST pose a few stupid questions now
17:47 * shapr does muscle poses
17:47 autrijus I just submitted http://autrijus.org/tmp/pugs.html  :)
17:47 autrijus dada: fire away, sire
17:48 dada am I right in suspecting line 190 of AST.hs (vCast (VArray (MkArray l)) = l) being responsible for the non-working of *@array?
17:48 autrijus why do you think that?
17:48 autrijus I can't see a connection :)
17:48 dada because op1 "*"    = return . VList . vCast
17:49 autrijus I thought it's the "*" op being wrong.
17:49 autrijus "list" op does what it should do.
17:49 autrijus * and ** needs to do more
17:49 autrijus but they don't
17:49 dada oh
17:49 dada ok, ok :-)
17:49 autrijus the "," Syn prolly need to take account of App "*"
17:49 autrijus and flatten them
17:49 autrijus alternatively, make "*" a Syn.
17:50 autrijus I'm not sure whetier if prefix:<*> is rebindable.
17:50 autrijus or whether it's implementable in perl6.
17:50 dada slowly, very slowly
17:50 dada I'm just hacking around, I'm totally clueless in Haskell
17:50 autrijus or both. or neither. or both.
17:50 * autrijus starts resembling larry.
17:51 autrijus ok. let me explain :)
17:51 luqui has joined #perl6
17:51 dada Syn == syntax
17:51 autrijus right. Syn is "special form" so to speak.
17:51 autrijus it means things that are inherent to AST
17:51 autrijus and are not rebindable.
17:51 autrijus i.e. can't be reimplemented in pure perl6.
17:52 autrijus and you can't generally take references to Syn stuff.
17:52 autrijus until we have macros.
17:52 autrijus which I'll not go into.
17:52 dada ok, and they are implemented in Eval.hs (mostly, at least)?
17:52 autrijus luqui: hey, is prefix <*> ?
17:52 autrijus luqui: hey, is prefix <*> a Syn?
17:53 autrijus i.e. what will happen if I redefine prefix:<*> and prefix:<**>?
17:53 luqui are you using <> as a quoter in your question?
17:53 autrijus yes I am.
17:53 autrijus dada: yes. see line 270
17:53 luqui well I wonder what it would return if it weren't
17:53 autrijus I wonder too.
17:53 autrijus also, "is returns Void" sane?
17:54 luqui yeah, that's been mentioned befor
17:54 luqui wait
17:54 luqui "is returns"
17:54 autrijus is returns == returns
17:54 dada autrijus: ok, I follow
17:54 autrijus iirc.
17:54 luqui oh... is returns(Void)
17:54 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
17:54 autrijus yeah.
17:54 luqui traits don't behave like verbs
17:54 autrijus <- about to sleep, not in the tiptoe typing shape
17:54 luqui so the parens are required
17:54 autrijus yup.
17:54 autrijus dada: so see line 365
17:54 nothingmuch autrijus: tomorrow i'll start writing tests for OOP
17:55 autrijus nothingmuch: woot
17:55 nothingmuch and rules
17:55 dada autrijus: seen
17:55 nothingmuch i wonder if one could test macros
17:55 dada autrijus: and also line 448-455
17:55 autrijus you see there an implementation for flattening.
17:55 luqui nothingmuch: with 'eval', I don't see why not
17:55 autrijus yup.
17:55 dada autrijus: in 365?
17:55 nothingmuch without starting a separate interpreter
17:55 luqui i want macros to be implemented
17:55 autrijus in 367 in fact but yeah.
17:55 nothingmuch well, supposedly they can go farther than that...
17:56 dada I see, I seeeee
17:56 luqui farther than what?
17:56 autrijus dada: ok. now see Bind
17:56 autrijus mm wait a bit
17:57 nothingmuch maybe i just dunno
17:57 nothingmuch i thought they weren't limited to anything
17:57 nothingmuch that is, they're as powerful as source filters
17:58 autrijus still in Eval
17:58 autrijus line 559
17:58 nothingmuch well, ok, why not
17:58 autrijus it is calling  bindParams prms invs args
17:58 autrijus so either bindParams or doApply needs to analyze invs and args
17:58 dada autrijus: ok
17:58 luqui so why can't you test that with eval?
17:58 autrijus and see if they contain Syn "*"
17:59 nothingmuch luqui: i dunno
17:59 nothingmuch =P
17:59 autrijus and then unpack them away.
17:59 autrijus that is one approach
17:59 autrijus but I had not thought of it in detail
17:59 ninereasons has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:59 |hugues has joined #perl6
17:59 autrijus and also "*" is currently an App not a Syn
18:00 dada gosh
18:00 autrijus to make it a Syn, change Parser line 402
18:00 autrijus    , preOps   " = ! + - ~ ? * ** +^ ~^ ?^ \\ "         -- Symbolic Unary
18:00 nothingmuch i doubt splat will change any
18:00 autrijus into something like
18:00 autrijus , preSyn " * ** " ++ preOps " = ! + ......"
18:00 nothingmuch oh, Syn vs. app is not synopsis vs. apocalypse =)
18:00 nothingmuch *blush*
18:00 nothingmuch what is an App?
18:01 autrijus and then add a line on 498
18:01 shapr I have an App in windows!
18:01 autrijus preSyn = ops $ makeOp1 Prefix "" Syn
18:01 autrijus that's all it takes.
18:01 nothingmuch shapr -= 0.01
18:01 ninereasons has joined #perl6
18:01 * shapr snickers
18:01 autrijus nothingmuch: App means "apply", it means calling a function.
18:01 * shapr deserved that
18:01 autrijus Syn means "syntax", it means a special form.
18:02 autrijus I need to write them all in PA02 ;)
18:03 autrijus I wonder if I can convince Bestian to fly to OSCON with ingy.
18:04 shapr I'd like to meet ingy, I've heard fascinating things about that person.
18:04 shapr ingy: do you have a website?
18:04 ingy shapr: http://zombo.com
18:05 shapr ingy: oh, you know Steve Howell?
18:05 stevan autrijus: question about Perl6/lib
18:05 shapr fooey, flash.
18:05 stevan is that gone away now?
18:05 * autrijus sighs.
18:05 autrijus yeah.
18:05 stevan my @*INC is : /System/Library/Perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level
18:05 autrijus and v6/ is also gone away.
18:06 stevan ok
18:06 autrijus they may come back in the future.
18:06 autrijus we don't know.
18:06 stevan so what should I tell people re: perl6 CPAN?
18:06 stevan other than to submit to Pugs
18:06 stevan and not CPAN
18:06 autrijus "wait for Pugs::MakeMaker / Module::Install::Pugs on CPAN ;)"
18:07 autrijus "once they are available individually on CPAN, you can start submit things to CPAN, because that means we've figured out the distribution problem"
18:07 autrijus "suggestions welcome etc"
18:07 stevan ok
18:07 autrijus (which shouldn't be long; YAPC::Taipei should also tackle that.)
18:07 stevan sounds good
18:07 * autrijus is piling lotsa things on Y::T
18:09 dada uhm
18:09 dada pugs> ? *(1,2,3)
18:09 dada *** Evl: App "&prefix:*" (Syn ","
18:10 dada it's still an App :-(
18:10 autrijus right. what's what I mean by * is App, not Syn
18:10 autrijus have you adjusted the Parser?
18:10 dada autrijus: yeah
18:10 autrijus and removed * from Prim?
18:10 autrijus (it's no longer a primitive)
18:10 b6s has quit IRC (tolkien.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
18:10 autrijus sorry I didn't mention that.
18:10 dada oops
18:10 b6s has joined #perl6
18:11 dada remove the op1 or remove it from initSyms?
18:11 dada or both?
18:11 dada or neither? :-)
18:11 autrijus hehe.
18:11 autrijus both.
18:12 b6s has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:13 b6s has joined #perl6
18:13 TSa has joined #perl6
18:16 webmind has joined #perl6
18:17 Schwern has joined #perl6
18:19 autrijus hi Schwern!
18:20 * nothingmuch noticed the avg population of #perl6 is growing
18:20 dada AAAATGH
18:21 autrijus dada: sorry for the pain :-/
18:21 dada autrijus: no no
18:21 dada I was just modifying the wrong files :-)
18:21 autrijus roflmao!
18:22 nothingmuch stevan->ping
18:22 Limbic_Region well if the H had been a C I would have thought dada was playing "guess the amino acid"
18:23 dada Limbic_Region: :-)
18:23 stevan autrijus: whats up
18:24 stevan or rather nothingmuch: whats up
18:24 nothingmuch stevan: how sane would it be to subclass Tree::Simple objects?
18:24 * stevan takes a big swig of coffee
18:24 stevan nothingmuch: I do it all the time
18:24 nothingmuch i'm not very satisfied with setNodeValue et all
18:24 nothingmuch i'm not very satisfied with setNodeValue et al
18:24 nothingmuch eck, shell reflexes
18:24 stevan what do you want it to do?
18:24 nothingmuch colloquy should have an option to disable history =)
18:24 nothingmuch well, i need objects with types
18:25 nothingmuch and i need them to have weird content
18:25 nothingmuch and i don't want the tree nodes to delegate to another object,
18:25 stevan nothingmuch: I usually subclass it to do just that
18:25 nothingmuch or contain a hash
18:25 nothingmuch because that is annoying
18:25 stevan hmmm, so you want to store extra info right in Tree::Simple then?
18:25 obra sene autrijus
18:25 nothingmuch goody
18:25 Schwern autrijus:  Hey
18:25 obra oh. 3 minutes. ok :)
18:26 nothingmuch sort of
18:26 nothingmuch perhaps stringification, too
18:26 obra autrijus-san: your isp hates you
18:26 nothingmuch i want to be able to feed them to petal templates easily
18:26 autrijus obra: how much?
18:26 obra <autrijus@autrijus.org>: host eforward2.name-services.com[216.52.184.242] said:
18:26 obra    550 5.7.1 Invalid recipient: [email@hidden.address] (in reply to RCPT TO
18:26 obra    command)
18:26 stevan nothingmuch: I am sure you could add more fields to it, just watch out for clashes
18:27 autrijus what the...
18:27 obra "a lot"
18:27 autrijus I don't understand.
18:27 autrijus autrijus.org.           3601    IN      MX      5 mail.autrijus.org.
18:27 autrijus autrijus.org.           3601    IN      MX      10 eforward4.name-services.com.
18:27 nothingmuch uhuh, that is the usual perl5 oop mess.. i know =)
18:27 autrijus obviously it should try mail.autrijus.org first.
18:27 * nothingmuch has ISP trouble too.... =(
18:28 nothingmuch nowadays it's relatively stable
18:28 saorge has joined #perl6
18:28 nothingmuch but a month ago i was on the verge of crying for about two weeks streight
18:28 Limbic_Region autrijus - is there a A record for mail.autrijus.org or only a P record?
18:28 autrijus mail.autrijus.org.      3526    IN      A       220.132.132.105
18:28 nothingmuch my friend in switzerland had pretty graphs for mailq sizes thrown off scale for years =)
18:28 autrijus I'm sure I got it correct :-/
18:28 * stevan loves his cable modem
18:28 * Limbic_Region tests
18:29 nothingmuch lucky for me i even had a backup mx
18:29 obra autrijus: but if your backup mx is losing, that's bad
18:29 autrijus yeah it should not be losing at all. will look to it tomorrow
18:30 Limbic_Region autrijus - you have SMTP services running on that box?
18:30 obra I wonder if it's worth taking eforward out of dns until it's fixed
18:30 TSa has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20050210]")
18:30 Limbic_Region $ telnet 220.132.132.105 25
18:30 Limbic_Region Connecting To 220.132.132.105...Could not open connection to the host, on port 25: Connect failed
18:30 obra better to have tempfail/queueing
18:30 autrijus it worksforme.
18:30 autrijus try again?
18:30 Limbic_Region ok
18:31 Limbic_Region same thing - let me try from outside government firewall
18:31 autrijus don't tell me my ISP is blocking incoming 25.
18:31 ingy Schwern: did you submit an oscon proposal this year?
18:31 obra it works for me now.
18:31 * autrijus shudders.
18:31 obra I wonder if there's a cable cut
18:31 ingy shapr: *you* know Steve Howell?
18:31 nothingmuch autrijus: that's just what happenned to me a month ago
18:31 nothingmuch yuck yuck yuck
18:32 Limbic_Region autrijus - working here
18:32 nothingmuch they said AOL was complaining
18:32 Limbic_Region you should probably disable vrfy btw
18:32 nothingmuch i asked why the blocked incoming and not outgoing
18:32 nothingmuch they said 'just cause'
18:32 autrijus how do I disable vrfy?
18:32 Limbic_Region I didn't test some other potential no-nos but if vrfy is enabled they are likely as well
18:32 * Limbic_Region is a sendmail weenie not postfix
18:33 Limbic_Region in fact, you probably shouldn't have postfix identify itself as such
18:33 Limbic_Region I need to check one more thing to rule out it being a firewall issue on my side
18:33 shapr ingy: via TheWiki and #python, yes. Early into YAML I was considering writing a YAML parser to help out.
18:34 shapr But I got distracted, as usual.
18:34 shapr Limbic_Region: Want to try a postfix replacement written in Haskell? =)
18:34 dada yeah!
18:35 Limbic_Region autrijus - nothing wrong with incoming 25 on your end - must be a firewall issue on my end - go figure ;-)
18:35 dada pugs> ? *(1,2,3)
18:35 dada *** Evl: Syn "*"
18:35 shapr ingy: Sadly, I have all the focus of a gerbil. methylphenidate upgrades my focus to praire dog level, so I can now stay employed.
18:35 dada (and later...)
18:35 autrijus dada: woot!
18:35 dada *** Error: "Unknown syntactic construct"
18:35 autrijus dada: sure. that means you need to implement Syn "*"
18:35 autrijus preferably just above Syn ","
18:35 Limbic_Region shapr - not especially.  Just wanted to let autrijus know of potential security risks
18:35 dada I'll look into it
18:36 Schwern ingy:  Nope.  Thought of something interesting to say too late.  I'm writing up one for YAPC though.
18:36 autrijus dada: I don't think I've made you a committer, did I?
18:36 dada nope
18:36 autrijus dada: email to send invitation to? :)
18:36 shapr Limbic_Region: I suspected not, therefore the smiley at the end attempting to imply the non-serious suggestion part. I just had to wave my lambda pom-poms, sorry :-)
18:36 dada autrijus: dada at perl dot it
18:36 stevan autrijus: commiting the PA01 change now
18:37 autrijus stevan: yay!
18:38 Limbic_Region autrijus - it is in your main.cf file - http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html
18:38 shapr has quit IRC ("work")
18:38 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
18:39 dada it is possible that ghc doesn't like \t in source files?
18:39 ingy Schwern: I got one accepted
18:39 autrijus Limbic_Region: vrfy closed.
18:40 ingy so prepare a place for me
18:40 nothingmuch dada: it needs to be consistent
18:40 nothingmuch and consistency of haskell code in pugs is spaces
18:40 autrijus dada: what nothingmuch said. when in doubt, try expandtab :)
18:40 autrijus I've seen tabs in tests.
18:40 autrijus I don't quite care :)
18:40 autrijus but .hs files wants spaces.
18:40 autrijus feel free to add -- vim: magic lines
18:40 autrijus or emacs, etc
18:40 autrijus as you see fit, at the end of .hs files.
18:40 dada nothingmuch: "Be consistent. Be nice" vs. "Be consistent. Or be dead"
18:41 autrijus the latter.
18:41 autrijus haskell, I mean. not pugs :)
18:41 dada one more thing learned :-)
18:41 autrijus stevan++ # excellent answer to PA01!
18:41 nothingmuch haskell likes tabs too
18:42 nothingmuch but it's either or, really
18:42 * nothingmuch did yaht stuff (ooh, so many) with tabs
18:42 autrijus viirya / hcchien: can you re-translate the "Is there a CPAN for Perl 6 modules?" chunk to zh-tw/PA01 ?
18:42 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:42 autrijus zh-tw/01Overview.html, even.
18:43 dada which is the current status of tests with the svn version?
18:43 dada I have several failures, but I don't know which ones are mine and which not :-)
18:45 nothingmuch dada - list the test files
18:45 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
18:45 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
18:45 nothingmuch only set #perl6 as the channel
18:45 autrijus see? that's the problem with making tests fail :)
18:45 autrijus (but yeah, one should be able to count delta in head)
18:45 nothingmuch well, otoh if they all pass, then you are ignoring problems =)
18:45 nothingmuch unless you explicitly search for them
18:46 pasteling "dada" at 193.203.230.22 pasted "failing pugs tests" (6 lines, 374B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8003
18:46 autrijus which I do anyway :)
18:46 nothingmuch dad- not yours
18:46 nothingmuch s/(?=-)/a/
18:47 theorbtwo nothingmuch-- # useless use of (?...) in RE.
18:47 nothingmuch uh, fine
18:47 dada nothingmuch: ok, thanks
18:47 nothingmuch s/(?:?=-)/a/
18:47 nothingmuch doesn't that help readabilty?
18:47 theorbtwo s/-/a/
18:47 theorbtwo Much better.
18:48 nothingmuch uh?
18:48 nothingmuch i'm finding a place, that has no width, followed by a -
18:48 nothingmuch and replacing it with 'a' to make 'dad-' into 'dada-'
18:48 nothingmuch i could have just used tab completion, but then i would not show off my mad regex skillz
18:49 theorbtwo s/-/a-/
18:49 nothingmuch then no one would know i know zero width lookahead assertions =)
18:49 theorbtwo Yes, but everyone would know what the RE did without checking perlre.
18:50 nothingmuch beh, regexes followed by typos correct the typos, everyone knows that =)
18:50 nothingmuch theorbtwo *= nothingmuch
18:50 nothingmuch there, that's more than --
18:50 nothingmuch i've got to go put my sister to sleep
18:51 theorbtwo nothingmuch++ # karmic balance.
18:52 ingy nothingmuch: hopefully that's not like putting your dog to sleep
18:53 PerlJam nothingmuch: just remember that in perl6 your RE would be :  s/<before: ->/a/, while theorbtwo's would still be s/-/a-/
18:57 autrijus wow. today's journal is really long.
18:57 autrijus zzz. :) &
18:59 luqui has quit IRC ("leaving")
19:00 ingy autrijus:it seems that test failures in the pugs tests prevent the ext tests from running
19:03 theorbtwo .oO(Woo, I'm a "helpful soul")
19:04 autrijus yow, luqui's post on p6l kept me awake.
19:04 autrijus ingy: really. hrmph.
19:04 theorbtwo Hm, on second thought, I think I'll take that committer bit, if it's still on the table.
19:05 theorbtwo james at mastros dot biz.
19:06 autrijus sent.
19:06 autrijus welcome aboard!
19:07 theorbtwo Thanks!  I'll try to not make too much of a pest of myself.
19:07 dada autrijus: is there something dangerous in the "??????" text I'm about to agree? :-)
19:08 ingy my oscon talk will be ... interesting
19:08 ingy autrijus: I only have 45 minutes so far, so it might be hard to integrate Bestian
19:08 autrijus dada: http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html is the en-us.
19:08 ingy of course I would be up to the challenge
19:08 autrijus ingy: I mostly think just to send him there to chat with people.
19:08 dada autrijus: thanks
19:09 autrijus and avoid the hefty entrance fee
19:09 ingy autrijus: good idea
19:09 autrijus dada: it's sf.net boilerplace.
19:09 autrijus boilerplate, even.
19:09 autrijus luqui++ # pattern matching subs makes sense!
19:09 autrijus I think my evil plan of inflicting haskell-sense on luqui is working.
19:09 obra      hah
19:10 theorbtwo Well, I can read the TOS exactly enough to tell that it looks real pretty.
19:10 ingy how hard will it be to implement p6 rules?
19:11 autrijus ingy: given PGE milestone 1, not hard at all
19:11 autrijus trivial almost.
19:11 autrijus without PGE milestone 1, I think a week of concentration.
19:12 ingy is there an expected timeline for milestone 1?
19:13 obra ingy: I'm working on it
19:13 obra ingy: have you seen the milestones doc? comments would be appreciated
19:13 Coke_ hey, obra.
19:13 obra Coke_: did you get my mail?
19:13 ingy obra: url?
19:14 obra http://svn.perl.org/perl6/do​c/trunk/plans/milestones.pod  
19:14 obra I've been working on fleshing it out with design team members. more questions to have it answer would be useful
19:14 Coke_ I'll comment on the parrot stuff, and how that might realte to the other projects as well as how leo's most recent 0.2.0 roadmap might integrate.
19:14 obra "send patches"
19:14 Coke_ (and several nits)
19:14 ingy obra: what's pod?
19:14 obra Coke_: please do
19:14 obra ingy: :P
19:14 ingy :P
19:15 Coke_ btw, =head3 isn't supported by my pod reader. =-)
19:15 obra when I can run kwid with TPF perl6, I'll switch
19:15 ingy no more pod after yapc
19:15 obra Coke_: it's supported by pod2html, which is the use case here ;)
19:15 Coke_ actually, that's what I used.
19:15 obra huh. I know there are version skew issues
19:16 obra some pod2htmls deal and others don't
19:16 obra but really I'm much more concered with getting the raw information written down at this point
19:17 autrijus yup.
19:17 ingy obra: you just gave me an idea
19:17 obra Coke_: can you point me at leo's plan when you reply?
19:17 ingy actually this was thought of by autrijus long ago, but...
19:18 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:18 ingy well not quite...
19:18 obra what is it?
19:18 ingy a kwiki plugin such that you can use svn/svk to check out and edit pages
19:18 ingy and svn hooks to store the metadata
19:19 obra isn't that just kwiki::archive::svk?
19:19 obra but yes, I'd like that. a lot
19:19 ingy not quite
19:19 ingy so would I
19:19 obra :)
19:19 Schwern ingy:  What's your talk about?
19:19 PerlJam has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:19 ingy Schwern: Apocalypse Now -- Perl6 is Here Today!
19:20 ingy I don't think my Kwiki tutorial got accepted, but I don't know yet
19:20 PerlJam has joined #perl6
19:21 ingy Schwern: basically I'm playing god\Wautrijus, since she won't be there
19:21 dada ouch
19:22 dada src/Eval.hs:368: Variable not in scope: `retval'
19:22 ingy broken code!?!
19:22 Coke_ leo's plan is spread over the mailing list in about 6 emails. =-)
19:22 ingy I like haskell because generally when it compiles it works
19:23 ingy getting to compile is the hard part ;)
19:23 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:23 pasteling "dada" at 193.203.230.22 pasted "offending snippet from Eval.hs" (6 lines, 257B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8014
19:24 DrSockHunter is now known as DrHyde
19:24 obra Coke_: If you can tell me what to search for, synthesis is my hob
19:24 obra job
19:25 ingy autrijus: why was PERL5LIB removed from the path?
19:25 Coke_ obra: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.pe​rl6.internals/browse_thread/thread/ddfa91a3​87b9273d/74fd1652e2fbac32#74fd1652e2fbac32
19:25 Limbic_Region Coke_ - IIRC, some of Leo's spread out proposal extends back to when Dan was around and said N-O
19:25 autrijus ingy: because I was appending Perl6/lib/ to there
19:25 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
19:25 autrijus ingy: and you removed it
19:26 autrijus so it now sees Test.pm
19:26 autrijus which it can't parse
19:26 autrijus and bokred.
19:26 nothingmuch beh
19:26 nothingmuch wifi problems
19:26 autrijus if you want proper p5 interop, we can add it
19:26 autrijus later
19:26 autrijus but not like this, not now
19:26 ingy I see
19:26 ingy makes total sense
19:26 ingy but Darren's problem was different
19:27 ingy autrijus: did you see that btw?
19:27 iwt has joined #perl6
19:28 ingy Schwern: in perl-5.8.1-RC1 when I set INST_LIB to ../../blib/lib MakeMaker kindly changed it to ../../../blib/lib
19:28 dada ohhhhh shame on me
19:28 dada I didn't see the difference between retval and retVal
19:29 autrijus ingy: what problem again? I thought it's the hardcoded ../../blib
19:29 autrijus which broke bad MM
19:29 autrijus and I fixed.
19:29 ingy let me review patch
19:29 metaperl has joined #perl6
19:30 autrijus ingy: I just used FindBin::Bin.
19:30 dada how do I get only the first elem of a list in Haskell?
19:30 autrijus head
19:30 clkao not car ?
19:30 * clkao giggles
19:30 dada it compiles! it compiles!
19:31 dada I needed a $ before the head
19:31 ingy autrijus: that will work although it should use M::I's base
19:31 * dada feels like playing with lego toys
19:31 ingy will fix
19:32 * theorbtwo sometimes thinks haskell needs a good case of parens and commas.
19:32 autrijus ingy: I'll leave it to you :)
19:32 Khisanth but it has both!
19:32 autrijus theorbtwo: you can add parens liberally :)
19:32 autrijus commas is harder :)
19:34 dada still, my splat operator doesn't do what it should do :-(
19:35 autrijus as long as it doesn't break more things, feel free to just commit it in.
19:35 autrijus I'll take a look tomorrow.
19:35 autrijus really sleep &
19:35 ingy autrijus: done
19:36 obra Coke_: mailed to myslef for later raiding
19:36 autrijus I take it back; even if it breaks more things, as long as it doesn't break the whole test tree catastrophically, still commit it.
19:36 PerlJam has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:37 * Limbic_Region wonders how autrijus is able to get any sleep
19:37 PerlJam has joined #perl6
19:37 Limbic_Region after having as mentally stimulating as he must have on a daily basis my mind won't shut off to sleep
19:38 theorbtwo L~R, try noting the time now, and when he next says something.
19:40 Limbic_Region [theorbtwo] - and?
19:40 dada autrijus: were you talking to me about committing?
19:40 Limbic_Region yes dada
19:40 theorbtwo Yeah, he was, dada.
19:41 dada ohhhh
19:41 theorbtwo Subtract.  Ain't that long.
19:41 dada ok, I will commit then. it seems that I didn't broke anything
19:41 dada (yet :-)
19:42 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - any is 0 and the time autrijus is away is longer than that
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20:00 ingy r536
20:09 lumimies has joined #perl6
20:09 nothingmuch hola lumimies
20:09 lumimies Morning
20:09 theorbtwo G'localtime, lumi.
20:09 lumimies Sorry I'm multiplying
20:10 lumimies I mean morning in the loosest possible sense
20:10 crysflame heh
20:16 dada dammit
20:16 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:17 dada I need a way to debug what's happening in pugs
20:17 dada does ghc have a debugger?
20:19 dada seems not
20:19 rgs there's ghci
20:19 dada can I run pugs through ghci?
20:20 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
20:20 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
20:20 dada wait, wait, doesn't ghc have all that +RTS stuff on the command line?
20:22 lumimies has joined #perl6
20:23 theorbtwo It does.  You can run pugs with +RTS ... -RTS options.
20:23 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:23 theorbtwo But I'm not sure it's useful.
20:24 lumimies has joined #perl6
20:25 dada no, it is not
20:26 dada since my ghc is compiled without DEBUG support, I can't use -D
20:26 dada I wonder how does autrijus does debugging of pugs source
20:26 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
20:36 Coke_ is now known as Coke-afk
20:38 saorge` has joined #perl6
20:39 lumi That's so annoying
20:40 joodie_ has joined #perl6
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21:05 tmoertel ingy: any reason why getLibs in returning an IO action?
21:06 tmoertel s/in/is/
21:12 stevan has joined #perl6
21:13 Steve_p Good afternoon stevan :)
21:13 stevan howdy Steve_p
21:15 ingy tmoertel: what would you suggest?
21:15 tmoertel ingy: if it's not dependent on IO, then "IO a" could become "a"
21:15 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
21:16 ingy tmoertel: I fought with it for 2 hours. Feel free to refactor
21:16 tmoertel otoh, if you are expecting that in a later rev, we'll need to perform IO like doesDirectoryExist on the paths, we ought to leave it in IO
21:16 ingy tmoertel: I was hoping to pair with  you sometime
21:16 ingy btw
21:16 tmoertel cool
21:16 ingy do you have a mac?
21:16 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
21:17 tmoertel ingy: I'm on i386-linux-thread-multi right now, but I have a mac or two in the office
21:17 nothingmuch has left
21:24 mauke I've removed the IO part
21:24 tmoertel ingy: take a look at http://community.moertel.co​m/ss/space/tmoertel/Hackery
21:24 mauke it seems to compile
21:26 wilx has joined #perl6
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21:43 dada I go, goodnight goodfellas
21:43 * joodie waves
21:44 dada has quit IRC ("kein bestandteil zu sein")
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22:51 ingy tmoertel: can you commit that or should I?
22:51 ninereasons has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
22:51 tmoertel ingy: I can send a darcs patch out
22:52 ingy how do darcs and svn get resolved?
22:52 tmoertel ingy: it looks like svn is the master repo and autrijus syncs from svn->darcs periodically
22:53 tmoertel ingy: my guess is autrijus can go darcs->svn, too
22:53 tmoertel ingy: when I commit darcs patches, the go to the perl6-compiler list
22:53 nothingmuch ingy - they don't
22:54 nothingmuch syncup is just svn pull
22:54 nothingmuch darcs recrod -l
22:54 nothingmuch that way conflicts are mad
22:54 nothingmuch e
22:59 ingy well go ahead and submit the patch
22:59 tmoertel ingy: maybe I'll just post a normall diff -u patch and you can apply it?
23:00 ingy I don't need the diff
23:00 ingy sure I'll do it
23:01 tmoertel ingy: you'll need to make a few related changes, too
23:01 ingy crap. cut/paste from that site borks newlines
23:01 tmoertel ingy: see http://community.moertel.com/ss/space​/tmoertel/Hackery/pugs-getLibs.patch
23:01 ingy can you email the patch to ingy at ttul dot org
23:01 ingy oh
23:02 * ingy should learn to read...
23:02 tmoertel I commented out the "PERL5LIB" and "PERLLIB" line to match your more-recent version
23:03 tmoertel ingy: at one point I saw a doesDirectoryExist test. do you still want to do that?
23:07 ingy tmoertel: applied as r539
23:07 ingy tmoertel: no
23:07 afbach has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:08 ingy because relative paths should work
23:08 ingy perl5 doesn't do exists. neither should we
23:09 ingy (read, it already bit me ;)
23:09 tmoertel that's sound logic, afaics  :)
23:09 ingy laters&
23:10 nothingmuch good night
23:10 tmoertel 'night
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23:36 safrican Hello
23:43 arcady hi
23:50 mugwump so, who has an opinion on the junction vs eigenstate thing ?
23:51 metaperl_ mugwump, can you expand with examples?
23:51 metaperl_ I know eigenstates were in Q::S
23:51 metaperl_ I am presenting tonight at our perl mongers meeting on Perl 6 Junctions
23:51 * metaperl_ groks URL
23:51 mugwump ($a = any(1..9); $b = any(1..9); $c = any(0..9); if ( ($a + $b) == ($a * 10 + $c) ) { say "A + B = AC"; say "$a + $b = ".($a*10+$c) }
23:52 metaperl_ actually tomorrow: http://www.hcoop.net/~terr​y/perl/talks/p6-junctions/
23:53 joodie has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:53 mugwump see also examples/sendmoremoney.p6 in pugs svn
23:54 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:54 mugwump the above is the simplest form of this problem I could find
23:54 obra mugwump: what are your .tw dates?
23:54 mugwump 23rd midnite  - 31st midday
23:55 obra oh. so no hackathon? :/
23:56 mugwump what date does that start / run to?
23:56 obra not sure. hoas
23:56 mugwump > For now, it would be on 3/28 - 3/31 (4 days) in Hualien.
23:57 mugwump - 簡信昌
23:57 mugwump blast :)
23:57 afbach has joined #perl6
23:58 obra go for 2 days
23:58 obra or 3
23:58 obra it's so worth it
23:58 obra hialien is fucking gorgeous
23:59 mugwump yes, it seems a little early to leave doesn't it
23:59 metaperl_ is hualien where the wulai people live?

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