Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 metaperl_ I went there when I lived in Taiwan
00:02 mugwump purl, #taipei.pm?
00:02 mugwump doh :)
00:03 obra #elixus on irc.tw.freebsd.org
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00:40 mugwump how long did you live in Taiwan for, metaperl_ ?  Are you a good person to ask for I18N tips from?  :-)
00:42 metaperl_ oh no, I know nothing about that?
00:42 Limbic_Region I lived in S. Korea for a year and a half and the only other country I visited was the Philippines - shame
00:42 metaperl_ s/\?/\./;
00:43 metaperl_ what did you do in S. Korea?
00:43 metaperl_ It costs money to travel and nothing is close by land to Korea if I'm not mistaken
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00:49 arcady russia is close enough to korea to have ferry service
00:53 metaperl_ are you serious?
00:53 Limbic_Region sorry - was paying attention to #perl
00:53 metaperl_ you arent the arcady from LA.pm are you?
00:53 Limbic_Region I was a contractor to the US Army
00:53 Limbic_Region my gf at the time got stationed there
00:54 Limbic_Region so I told my boss to get me a job there or I would quit
00:54 metaperl_ oh I see. I enjoyed Taiwan and miss it. My plane stopped in Korea on the way back to the US but that's it
00:54 Limbic_Region 1 month before we were supposed to come back to the states - she sent me a dear john email
00:54 * Limbic_Region was well compensated
00:54 Limbic_Region besides - a large portion of foreigned earned income is tax free (under the right conditions)
00:55 Limbic_Region oh - if we are talking layovers or 1 day trips, HongKong and Tapei should be added to the list
00:56 Limbic_Region 3 countries in Europe, 3 in North American, and 3 in Asia
01:00 metaperl_ I knew an American who teaches in Japan. He simply quit responding to his creditors, including student loans. He said they assume you are dead after 3 years
01:00 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
01:00 metaperl_ and just nullify the loans
01:00 * metaperl_ quit too --- time to leave this office and head home!
01:01 metaperl_ adios fellow hackers
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01:12 ingy hi metaperl_
01:14 arcady wow, I didn't even know there's an LA.pm... or another arcady for that matter
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01:19 stevan added a basic early support for isa_ok() in Test.pm if anyone is interested. r542
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02:05 rooneg i was getting that before, seems to work now though
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02:40 seano :t ws
02:41 seano by which I mean "hi"...
02:54 hcchien 95/1360 subtests failed
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03:17 arcady and the test results have some weird numbers like 178% of subtests failed
03:19 obra yeah. there's been lots of test un_todoing
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04:06 autrijus greetings on another frabjous day!
04:07 obra hi!
04:08 seano calloo callay, homes.
04:08 autrijus :)
04:09 seano Has either of you been using GHC 6.4?  I just realized that both FiniteMap and Data.Map look buggy...
04:09 autrijus I've been testing against it
04:09 autrijus but for daily work I'm still using 6.2
04:09 autrijus mostly because 6.4 is still in early rc
04:10 seano hm...  I guess everyone has his own definition of "rc".
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04:20 seano Parsec is sure a fun tool, but it seems to take a different kind of discipline to make grammars legible.
04:20 autrijus explain? :)
04:21 seano It almost makes me wish for a BNF -> Parsec tool, like yayacc or something.
04:21 autrijus ahh. I see.
04:21 seano With BNF, your description and your language are very similar.
04:21 autrijus seano: write a Rule->Parsec compiler? :)
04:22 seano With Parsec, it's very tempting to add helper functions, folds, maps, and tables to generate the thing, which makes it hard to read.
04:22 seano Yeah, something like that...
04:22 seano For a real mind-bender, write a BNF parser in Parsec that generates a Parsec parser.
04:23 seano I dare you ;)
04:23 autrijus that is how Rule->Parsec compiler must be written :)
04:23 autrijus well, there is already Happy
04:24 flw autrijus: ÎÒ·¢ÁËÒ»·âÓʼþ¸øÄ㣬ÔÚ [email@hidden.address]
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04:24 seano True, but I think the staticness makes it unusable for "is parsed foo".
04:24 seano flw: wtf with the row of boxes.  Is that perl6?
04:24 autrijus and there is already http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~markus/BNFC/
04:25 autrijus flw: please try to keep #perl6 as utf8... if you'd like to write gbk we can talk at #perlchina :)
04:25 autrijus flw: and yes, I did get your mail.
04:26 autrijus flw: can you provide a telnet server or ssh?
04:26 autrijus so that I can get on your machine and debug?
04:26 seano autrijus: cool, didn't know about that one.
04:26 autrijus otherwise, I'm trying to lure autarch into implementing Build.PL for us
04:26 autrijus in which case your problem is more easily solved.
04:28 flw seano: ???
04:28 seano non-ASCII in Emacs looks like boxes.
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04:36 mugwump Heh, confusing Perl 6 with Chinese.  "It's all  to me!"
04:42 mugwump Ἑ@⁁@⁁@ἡ@vἡ@Kκ
04:42 mugwump lol
04:43 justatheory has quit IRC ()
04:43 * mugwump tries iso-8859-3 (B&%B(B&KB(B&KB(B&GB(B&MB(B&IB(B&JB
04:43 * mugwump gives up
04:50 autrijus heh :)
04:51 mugwump did you get my modified sendmoremoney.p6 script, autrijus ?
04:51 autrijus mugwump: I did. I also wonder why you did not commit it yourself :)
04:52 mugwump My message was asking if I could have access, in the form of a token change.  I grokked what you were trying to do with the sendmoremoney.p6, and as I'd recently explored the problem space, I'd show the script
04:53 mugwump s/show the script/add my findings/, sorry
04:53 autrijus oh. sendmoremoney.p6 is not my baby :)
04:53 mugwump oh, duh.
04:53 autrijus so I was briefly confused :)
04:53 viirya autrijus: why re-tranalste? You made changes in PA01?
04:53 autrijus I think it's nnunley's
04:53 autrijus viirya: yes, there is one single paragraph rewritten by Stevan
04:53 autrijus viirya: see yesterday's journal
04:54 autrijus mugwump: an invitatil should be @ your mailbox now.
04:55 viirya autrijus: ok. I see it.
04:55 autrijus thanks!
04:55 * mugwump waits 300 seconds for the greylisting timeout ...
04:56 autrijus mugwump: welcome aboard. sorry, I thought I've invited you earlier; mea culpa
05:18 viirya autrijus: it's done, how do I give you it?
05:24 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
05:24 Darren_Duncan greetings humans
05:27 Darren_Duncan I've just checked in an updated Locale::KeyedText ...
05:27 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
05:27 Darren_Duncan some bugs are fixed, partly thanks to some questions I got answered on p6l
05:27 autrijus yeah, larry seems excited
05:27 autrijus it's good to excite larry :)
05:27 autrijus <- but I gotta run.
05:28 Darren_Duncan but one of the more interesting things is that the new version uses new Perl 6 features
05:28 Darren_Duncan subtypes I think they're called
05:28 Darren_Duncan lets me cut out a lot of input checking code
05:29 autrijus also "where" clause I think is useful.
05:29 Darren_Duncan assuming I used them correctly
05:29 Darren_Duncan my subtypes use the "where" clause
05:29 autrijus ah. cool
05:29 Darren_Duncan I just didn't want to repeat it for every variable
05:29 autrijus nod nod.
05:29 Darren_Duncan I consider subtypes like SQL domains
05:30 Darren_Duncan you can pre-declare a set of constraints and use it everywhere
05:30 autrijus yup. logic programming, here we come
05:30 autrijus I just submitted YAPC::NA proposal :)
05:30 obra !
05:30 obra oh. canada.
05:30 Darren_Duncan of course, that's one more thing Pugs'll have to support before my mod runs
05:30 autrijus obra: yes, the very reason :)
05:30 Darren_Duncan other end of the country from where I am
05:31 Darren_Duncan I'm going to try to be at OSCON this year
05:31 Darren_Duncan my first ever big Perl conference
05:31 Darren_Duncan it's location is relatively close to home
05:31 Darren_Duncan and some of the biggest stuff happens there
05:31 autrijus have fun. :) ingy will speak there for me on pugs
05:31 Darren_Duncan but I suppose its more expensive
05:32 Darren_Duncan what are you talking about at YAPC?
05:32 Darren_Duncan same thing?
05:32 autrijus yeah. "Apocalypse Now"
05:32 autrijus but more of a how-to-hack-pugs tutorial
05:32 Darren_Duncan eventually I'll try to visit all the english-language Perl conferences, as I have the means to do so
05:33 autrijus :)
05:33 Darren_Duncan it seems like some people go to all of them
05:33 * obra is trying to cut down on conferences
05:33 autrijus obra: I figure 3 days can't hurt :)
05:33 Darren_Duncan I could do that later, but gotta go up before I can come down
05:33 * autrijus runs &
05:33 obra + how may days of travel ;)
05:34 Darren_Duncan I figure its a great opportunity to meet all these Perl folks I only see on the internet before that
05:34 obra Indeed.
05:34 Darren_Duncan that said, I have met a couple names in person
05:34 * obra has spent a bit too much time at the worthless conferences.
05:34 obra Once I hire minions, things will get better, though
05:35 obra At least in theory
05:35 Darren_Duncan If any of you have heard of Peter Scott, who wrote Perl Debugged (name?) and spoke at OSCON in 2004 about taming legacy perl, he lives in my home town and we meet at the monthly Victoria.pm gatherings
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05:35 obra Ah
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05:36 Darren_Duncan Also, about 1.5 years ago, a Linux cruise stopped by in Victoria and I briefly met ... Mike Schwern (name?) ... and I met Linux Torvalds
05:36 obra But yes, come to conferences. Meet more people. Share more ideas
05:36 Darren_Duncan not mike schwern ...
05:37 Darren_Duncan Randal Schwartz I met
05:37 Darren_Duncan that's about it
05:38 wolverian well, Larry Wall has replied to my mailing list post! so nyah!
05:38 * wolverian cries softly
05:38 Darren_Duncan he replied to mine too
05:38 Darren_Duncan and he said thanks for my efforts
05:39 Darren_Duncan so nyah!
05:40 Darren_Duncan anyway, Larry is one of those I'm most looking forward to meeting when I get the chance, for several reasons
05:40 mugwump #1. to bow down and chant "we're not worthy"
05:40 Darren_Duncan won't list em
05:40 mugwump #2. Hit him up about why there can be no $%@#$% operator in Perl 6
05:40 Darren_Duncan who says there can't
05:41 Darren_Duncan I seem to recall Perl 6 will let us redefine its own grammar
05:41 Darren_Duncan I think that was Larry's idea
05:41 obra Oh wow. The ruby track at OSCon is going to be great.
05:41 seano because that's a magic variable that stores the last failed grammar rule.
05:41 mugwump Is that a flying saucer?  No, wait, I think it's a pie
05:41 Darren_Duncan is there another bet?
05:41 statico mmm... unidentified pie...
05:42 Darren_Duncan like pie-thon the return?
05:42 Darren_Duncan or the son of pie-thon
05:42 Darren_Duncan or the bride of pie-thon
05:42 mugwump pie-in-the-sky-thon
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05:52 nothingmuch good morning
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06:14 hoowa morning
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06:14 thesaboteur morning
06:15 hoowa afternoon in china.
06:15 thesaboteur 1am here
06:15 hoowa where u local?
06:16 thesaboteur east coast usa
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06:16 hoowa woo :0
06:16 hoowa morning morning!!
06:16 thesaboteur yea haha
06:17 hoowa alexe??
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06:34 Darren_Duncan about ... stuff?
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06:39 thesaboteur mmmm...... invisible    stuff.
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06:44 hoowa stuff?
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06:50 Darren_Duncan that was a joke ...
06:50 Darren_Duncan it is what someone can say to try to start a conversation while being fully non-descriptive
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06:53 thesaboteur hmm is there a way to get more verbose error output from perl? im running it with -w but is there anything else I can do to get more info from the errors?
06:53 thesaboteur #!/usr/bin/perl -w
06:54 thesaboteur Use of uninitialized value in split at /Library/Perl/5.8.1/Net/AOLIM.pm line 2406.
06:54 thesaboteur that's the error I get
06:54 thesaboteur &{$imsg->{'callback'}}($tp_type, split(/:/,$tp_tmp,$SERVER_MSG_ARGS{$tp_type}));  < line 2406
06:55 Darren_Duncan the only way I've found to resolve that is to split up the offending line into several shorter lines
06:56 Darren_Duncan not with whitespace, but with the use of a few temp variables
06:56 thesaboteur yeah
06:56 obra it might make sense to print out the variables just before that line
06:56 obra or use the debugger, if you dare. but really, #perl is a better place for perl5 questions
06:56 Darren_Duncan sometimes printing them helps, sometimes not
06:56 thesaboteur ah ok that I can do
06:57 Darren_Duncan good idea
06:57 thesaboteur kool thanks
06:57 Darren_Duncan I've just committed some more LKT upgrades
06:57 Darren_Duncan that's it for tonight ... tomorrow I'll upload a test suite for it
06:57 Darren_Duncan it looks a lot more Perl-6ish now
06:57 obra Night, Darren.
06:57 Darren_Duncan same to you
06:58 obra Oh. it might be worth taking it and annotating it and posting it on your use.perl journal or somesuch
06:58 obra are you blogging about perl6 hacking? if so, I'll add you to planetsix.perlfoundationlorg
06:58 Darren_Duncan I should post what there?
06:58 Darren_Duncan no, I don't have a blog for any reason
06:59 Darren_Duncan usually, stuff like this that I want to share, I email a related mailing list
06:59 obra so. you're one of the first folks actually _coding_ in perl6.
06:59 Darren_Duncan probably
06:59 obra It might be interesting for folks to read about the stuff you're doing.
06:59 Darren_Duncan maybe, but blogging never really interested me, and it takes time
06:59 obra use.perl.org provides free blogging for perl-related people. and we've got public blog-aggretators so the general public can see what's up
06:59 ingy hola
06:59 obra hey ingy
06:59 ingy hi jesse
07:00 obra Understood.
07:00 * obra is getting very excited about the hualien hackathon
07:01 Darren_Duncan still, I've got a little problem where it takes me a lot more time to do things than the average person, so doing extra things like a regular blog can be significant
07:01 Darren_Duncan on the other hand, I may be pleasantly surprised
07:01 ingy Darren_Duncan: maybe you irc too much :P
07:01 Darren_Duncan part of it is just about figuring out what to say without sounding boring
07:01 obra *nod* you could also just write to mailing lists and copy and paste your messages into the blog ;)
07:02 obra so. I'm a module author. I'd love to hear about what makes perl6 so much better for coding in.
07:02 obra since I've been paying only a bit of attention and it sounds like you've found it nicer than perl5 in some ways
07:02 Darren_Duncan it takes getting used to, but I certainly appreciate a lot of Perl6 features
07:03 Darren_Duncan the subtypes can save a lot of input checking code for example
07:03 Darren_Duncan assuming they do what I think they do
07:03 Darren_Duncan I mean, subtypes in combination with a 'where' clause
07:03 Darren_Duncan sort of like a SQL domain
07:04 Darren_Duncan and I'm quite into databases, if you hadn't noticed from my modules
07:04 Darren_Duncan anyway, while I *could* start a blog, I can't promise that I'll write in it very often
07:05 ingy obra: hualien looks awesome
07:06 obra nod
07:06 obra to both of you
07:10 ingy it will be a fun drive down the coast
07:10 Darren_Duncan as for public-visible stuff, fortunately all the Perl mls and this IRC channel are all archived on the web, so everything I say is sort of published
07:10 ingy I can't wait
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07:12 obra driving? last time, we just took the train
07:13 Darren_Duncan question: yesterday there was a p6l post by Shu-chun that said the ternary operator wasn't working in pugs, ?? :: ... is this known to be an outstanding issue or known fixed
07:14 Darren_Duncan actually nevermind, I'm leaving
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07:37 nothingmuch morning
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08:18 nothingmuch hola larsen
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08:19 Khisanth ack!
08:19 * Khisanth gives up on haskell and tries perl6 instead :)
08:21 larsen nothingmuch: Hello.
08:25 ingy Khisanth: what haskell stuff have you read?
08:27 Khisanth ingy: just following stuff on haskell.org
08:28 ingy Khisanth: I like http://www.haskell.org/onlinelibrary/
08:28 ingy just the  facts
08:28 Khisanth "A Gentle Introduction to Haskell" seems nicer than YAHT
08:28 ingy agreed
08:28 ingy but both take to long to get to the  nuts and bolts
08:29 nothingmuch what is long?
08:29 nothingmuch the first 40 or so pages of YAHT, which is 200 pages
08:29 nothingmuch were not that dense
08:29 Khisanth ingy: maybe we're just impatient :)
08:29 nothingmuch so they went quickly
08:29 nothingmuch i spent about 90 minutes learning haskell so far
08:30 nothingmuch and excercises i felt i should skipped i did
08:30 nothingmuch but then again, i sort of skimmed
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08:55 * nothingmuch feels cunning
09:02 nothingmuch make test now works on OSX
09:02 nothingmuch whomever++
09:03 nothingmuch (ingy?)
09:03 ingy did it not work?
09:05 nothingmuch it didn't work yesterday
09:05 nothingmuch PERL6LIB problems
09:05 nothingmuch make purge didn't help
09:05 nothingmuch but now it does, maybe because i upgrade ExtUtils::MakeMaker
09:06 nothingmuch maybe not
09:06 nothingmuch eitherway, karma is up
09:19 dada has joined #Perl6
09:19 dada hola
09:23 thesaboteur has left
09:25 nothingmuch hola dada
09:25 nothingmuch has anybody but autrijus taken a look at the fatal (even in eval) casting of hash to string?
09:25 nothingmuch i'd like to comit the second iteration of t/op/smartmatch.t
09:25 nothingmuch which covers everything but rules & objects
09:25 nothingmuch and some stuff i didn'
09:25 nothingmuch t understand
09:26 theorbtwo Morning.
09:26 nothingmuch hola theorbtwo
09:40 autrijus hi.
09:40 nothingmuch morning autrijus
09:40 autrijus where is the stringification to hash specced again?
09:40 autrijus I have fixed not()
09:40 autrijus and various related parsing bugs
09:40 autrijus and hopefully made flw's nmake problem go away.
09:41 nothingmuch i would like it to just not die horribly in an eval,
09:41 nothingmuch appearantly in S02 at the top
09:41 nothingmuch as arcady noted
09:41 nothingmuch it says $key\t$value\n
09:42 autrijus "There is no such thing as a hash list context."
09:42 autrijus oops. so pugs is wrong.
09:42 * autrijus makes a note
09:42 nothingmuch a hash in list context == a list of paris, no?
09:43 nothingmuch don't make a note, i'll write a  test
09:43 nothingmuch oh
09:44 nothingmuch not hash in list context
09:44 nothingmuch list context into a hash
09:45 autrijus hash stringification implemented as r554.
09:46 * autrijus goes out to find food
09:46 autrijus food &
09:46 nothingmuch *hug*
09:46 nothingmuch thank you!
09:46 autrijus :)
09:47 autrijus it's AST.hs line 158 if people are interested.
09:47 autrijus it's one line:
09:47 autrijus vCast (VHash (MkHash h))     = unlines $ map (\(k, v) -> (vCast k ++ "\t" ++ vCast v)) $ fmToList h
09:47 nothingmuch \n?
09:47 autrijus unlines = \n
09:47 nothingmuch ah
09:47 * autrijus gone & :)
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09:59 theorbtwo Anybody SubEthaEditites around here?
10:00 * nothingmuch is here
10:00 nothingmuch but i can't punch work nat
10:00 nothingmuch you'll have to arrange for that
10:02 theorbtwo I actually wanted an ethereal or tcpdump trace of an anonymous subethaedit session.
10:03 metaperl has joined #perl6
10:03 nothingmuch anonymous?
10:03 nothingmuch i.e. rendezvouz?
10:03 fayland has joined #perl6
10:03 alexe has left
10:03 theorbtwo Anon IE without encryption.
10:04 nothingmuch i doubt there is encryption either way
10:04 nothingmuch subetha uses zeroconf to find other subethas on the LAN
10:04 nothingmuch subnet
10:04 nothingmuch and aside from that it's just a propietry protocol
10:04 theorbtwo I know, but it uses BEEP for the actual communications, and BEEP will do SASL.
10:04 nothingmuch tcp/ip
10:04 nothingmuch ah
10:04 theorbtwo SEE 2.0 or 1.0?
10:04 nothingmuch that i didn't know
10:05 * nothingmuch is outdated, appearantly
10:05 theorbtwo <g>
10:05 nothingmuch well, not really
10:05 nothingmuch software wise i'm up to date
10:05 nothingmuch i just was not aware of any changes
10:05 nothingmuch you want to glue see operability into something else?
10:05 theorbtwo xemacs.
10:06 theorbtwo Not that I've got the elsip chops, but perhaps I can figure out the protocol, and get somebody else to do it.
10:06 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/~autrijus/Kwiki-Edi​t-SubEtha-0.02/lib/Kwiki/Edit/SubEtha.pm?
10:07 theorbtwo Looks like that just scripts a subethaedit instance.
10:08 nothingmuch oh, right
10:08 nothingmuch hmm
10:08 nothingmuch funny way of doing it
10:08 nothingmuch if i connect to you, you can just tcpdump and see if it does sasl
10:09 theorbtwo Um, I could, if I had a subethaedit, but the point is that I don't.
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10:09 theorbtwo Connect to see://www.codingmonkeys.de/ ?
10:16 * Juerd_ hates his wrists and hands
10:16 theorbtwo Type with your feet?
10:16 Juerd_ I wish I could
10:17 theorbtwo Should learn.
10:18 theorbtwo I've never tried to type with my feet, but typing with my nose works OK.
10:18 theorbtwo Of course, it makes it hard to watch the screen while typing.
10:18 nothingmuch theorbtwo: oh, i thought you were running pearpc
10:19 nothingmuch so you want me to connect there, and give you tcpdump | grep codingmonkeys.de?
10:19 theorbtwo No, have to set it up, I suppose.
10:19 theorbtwo That won't give me payloads.  Hold on a sec, let me figure out how to convince tcpdump to give me what I want.
10:20 nothingmuch tcpdump -vv?
10:21 theorbtwo tcpdump -w host codingmonkeys.de
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10:21 * luqui just had an insanity attack
10:21 theorbtwo Er, tcpdump -w host codingmonkeys.de > see.tcpdump
10:21 theorbtwo Hmm?
10:22 luqui hmming at me?
10:22 theorbtwo Aye.
10:22 nothingmuch tcpdump won't accept 'host codingmonkeys.de'
10:22 luqui my most recent message on p6l is purely insane
10:22 nothingmuch one minute
10:22 luqui but perl6 has been open to insane ideas before :-)
10:23 theorbtwo try "host 212.204.60.78"
10:23 theorbtwo Oh, that should probably be quoted.
10:23 nothingmuch ah, yes
10:23 nothingmuch i thought maybe -w wants a file arg
10:24 theorbtwo D'oh, yes, it does.
10:24 theorbtwo I haven't use tcpdump directly for quite a while -- I just use ethereal, and let it do the hard bits.
10:28 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i have dumps of simple actions
10:28 nothingmuch connect, disconnect, open file
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10:32 theorbtwo Great!
10:32 nothingmuch hold on, got to do it all again
10:32 theorbtwo Put them someplace http-accessable, or mail to james-at-mastros-dot-biz?
10:32 nothingmuch it was the argument to -w, and now you have all my other traffic aswell =)
10:34 theorbtwo Oh.  Um, might want to do something about that.
10:36 nothingmuch uhuh, redumping is easiest
10:37 nothingmuch ok
10:37 nothingmuch FYI, i am syeeda.int.hyperroll.com
10:38 nothingmuch which is my laptop, internal net,
10:38 nothingmuch ip 10.1.1.xx
10:38 nothingmuch i forget
10:38 nothingmuch here is the progress, || denotes tcpdump was restarted
10:39 nothingmuch connect || close || connect || open file || move around file || add line || <--- overwritten some data, state ruined --> || remove line, by repeatedly deleting chars, and by selecting and deleteing || quit app
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10:41 theorbtwo So you only have data from the <--- overwritten ---> bit forward?
10:41 nothingmuch no
10:42 nothingmuch i accidentally overwrote the dump where the line was deleted
10:42 nothingmuch so i redid that
10:42 nothingmuch but the state was not exactly the same
10:42 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/subethadumps/
10:42 nothingmuch between add_line.dump and delete_line.dump the line was deleted and added
10:42 theorbtwo Ah, much much thanks.
10:45 nothingmuch good luck with it
10:45 nothingmuch and feel free to ask for more specific interaction as necessary
10:45 nothingmuch i'm going to lunch
10:46 theorbtwo Bon appitit.
10:50 theorbtwo DOH!
10:50 * theorbtwo stops messing with nothingmuch, installs pearpc.
10:51 lumi Mornin'
10:51 lumi Umm, I could send you dumps in ~ 10 hours
10:53 theorbtwo Mornin, lumi.
10:53 theorbtwo I can have a pearpc install up and running quicker then that, I hope.
10:57 nothingmuch FYI - subetha may be free for noncommercial use, but i'm not sure whether it's EULA allows this kind of stuff
10:57 nothingmuch you should check
10:57 * nothingmuch would donate to theorbtwo if the said monk would produce a 'libnetedit' which every editor would bind to
10:58 theorbtwo The EULA is irrelevant; the wire is mine.
10:58 nothingmuch isn't this reverse engineering their protocol, which is sort of like data files?
10:59 buu Yes!
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10:59 theorbtwo Yes; just like data files it's legal.  If it weren't, the samba guys would have been sued into the stone age by MS.
11:00 nothingmuch hmm
11:00 nothingmuch so why are DVDs illegal?
11:00 nothingmuch program binaries?
11:00 nothingmuch if i disassemble the windows kernel on a sun machine, the machine code is no longer executable
11:00 nothingmuch i could argue it's not a program as far as i'm concerned
11:00 nothingmuch forget it
11:01 nothingmuch i don't really want to know this stuff
11:01 nothingmuch i wasn't asking
11:01 nothingmuch just be careful =)
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11:03 theorbtwo The reason is that the copyright on the program files belongs to them.  If I write something in Word, and save it, does MS have a copyright interest in my words?
11:03 theorbtwo Nope.
11:06 Juerd_ I'm sure that a careful reading of the EULA brings up a possible interpretation that says they own everything, including the user's thoughts for the time they use the program ;)
11:21 theorbtwo has quit IRC ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
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11:25 nothingmuch autrijus: ping
11:35 nothingmuch is(~%hash9, ("1\t2\n2\t3\n"), "hash can stringify");
11:35 nothingmuch this passes
11:35 nothingmuch but it's not correct
11:35 nothingmuch is(~%hash9, ("1\t2\n2\t3\n" | "2\t3\n1\t2\n"), "hash can stringify");
11:35 nothingmuch this does not
11:35 nothingmuch not ok 53 - hash can stringify
11:35 nothingmuch #     Failed test (t/op/hash.t at line 133, column 1)
11:36 nothingmuch #          got: '1      2
11:36 nothingmuch 2       3
11:36 nothingmuch '
11:36 nothingmuch #     expected: '2      3
11:36 nothingmuch 1       2
11:36 nothingmuch '
11:36 nothingmuch oh shit
11:36 nothingmuch i see
11:36 nothingmuch ok 52 - hash can stringify
11:36 nothingmuch not ok 53 - hash can stringify
11:36 nothingmuch ok(hash eq junction)
11:36 nothingmuch sorry, everyone!
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12:22 wolveria1 I wonder what the 'shall' auxiliary trait keyword in A12 does.
12:24 nothingmuch hmm
12:24 nothingmuch no clue
12:24 nothingmuch it's not in s12
12:25 nothingmuch or s13, which forked off
12:25 nothingmuch p6l?
12:27 wolveria1 Thomas Sandlaß's message in the thread Adding linear interpolation to an array wonders about it too, but I don't see any answers. hmm.
12:27 nothingmuch =P
12:28 * nothingmuch just realized he's at work, and can run pugs tests on a 2x3ghz machine, instead of his 1x400mhz laptop
12:29 Aankhen`` Dual 3 GHz.?  What CPU?
12:29 nothingmuch model name      : Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.06GHz
12:29 nothingmuch hyperthreading
12:29 nothingmuch twice
12:29 Aankhen`` Kewl.
12:29 nothingmuch uhuh
12:29 Aankhen`` You lucky dawg.
12:29 nothingmuch and that machine's swap disk just got zapped
12:30 nothingmuch so no one can use it for anything else either =)
12:30 Aankhen`` Awesome. :-P
12:30 nothingmuch is there an svn rpm for only the client somewhere?
12:30 theorbtwo Nice.
12:30 nothingmuch we also have some tougher boxes
12:30 nothingmuch at the US site there's some quad and 8 cpu aix and sun boxes
12:31 nothingmuch and we have an old alpha server
12:31 nothingmuch which in theory was much more powerful
12:31 nothingmuch it looks like a minibar
12:31 Aankhen`` I want an 8 CPU Opteron server.
12:31 Aankhen`` And I want a life too, while you're at it.
12:35 nothingmuch ... make -j5 ...
12:35 nothingmuch =D
12:35 Aankhen`` ?
12:35 nothingmuch oh nothing
12:36 Aankhen`` Awww, c'mon, tell me...
12:36 * nothingmuch compiles svn
12:36 wolveria1 svk? :)
12:36 nothingmuch svk - i've been having interface incompatibilities with it
12:36 nothingmuch i don't know how to use it yet
12:36 nothingmuch svn is like cvs which i already know
12:36 wolveria1 it is a bit odd.
12:36 xern has joined #perl6
12:36 nothingmuch and i have no time to learn something new
12:37 nothingmuch so it's on hold
12:37 nothingmuch even though i would like to use it eventually
12:46 nothingmuch time make optimized ...
12:48 nothingmuch 116.590u 2.020s 2:02.58 96.7%   0+0k 0+0io 52996pf+0w
12:48 nothingmuch not bad
12:48 nothingmuch csh makes it undreadable
12:49 nothingmuch time make test
12:49 nothingmuch 16.990u 1.330s 0:18.23 100.4%   0+0k 0+0io 104230pf+0w
12:49 nothingmuch woot
12:55 iblechbot has joined #perl6
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13:12 nothingmuch does the default var ($_) need any declaration in p6?
13:13 rgs I don't think so
13:17 fayland has joined #perl6
13:19 fayland hcchien: if i find some mistakes at the zh_tw/S13.pod, what can i do?
13:21 fayland hcchien_: maybe my mistake? should i contact the author directly?
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13:25 nothingmuch fayland: change and commit, IMHO
13:25 nothingmuch if it turns out to be a wrong correction, it can always be rolled back
13:25 fayland nothingmuch: but my encoding is diffrent, is that ok?
13:25 nothingmuch ah
13:25 nothingmuch utf-8 is the norm
13:26 nothingmuch pugs won't eat anything else
13:26 nothingmuch perl6 says it's a good thing
13:26 nothingmuch and i think hcchien_ converted them yesterday
13:26 fayland but the words appears different
13:27 fayland zh_tw is big5, i use gb2312
13:27 nothingmuch where is S13 in zh_tw?
13:27 nothingmuch both should be utf-8
13:27 nothingmuch if i understood correctly
13:27 fayland the words appears big5.the encoding is utf-8
13:27 nothingmuch ah
13:28 nothingmuch you mean it was reinterpreted as utf-8
13:28 nothingmuch but it really is big-5?
13:28 fayland appearance is different
13:28 nothingmuch and meaning?
13:28 nothingmuch also, duh
13:28 * nothingmuch is a bit tired, please forgive
13:29 nothingmuch hmm, i think you'd better ignore me for now
13:29 fayland :) soory for my poor english.
13:33 nothingmuch i think i should apologize for my poor mental skills
13:33 scw fayland: Hello, what's the problem you discovered? I'm from Taiwan so may be able to help :)
13:40 fayland scw: such as "Likewise operators on your new type can appear in the class:"
13:41 fayland scw: i upload my translation to zh_ch, may this helps.
13:41 fayland scw: i think we need discuss that.
13:42 scw fayland: Are you talking about some file already in the svn tree?
13:43 fayland scw: yes.
13:43 fayland scw: the done translation work.
13:43 scw fayland: So you are stanslating t/Synopsis/*.pod in to Chinese?
13:43 fayland scw: that's right.
13:44 scw fayland: I think the file should better use UTF-8 encoding
13:44 fayland yes. i use utf-8 encoding.
13:45 scw fayland: but with different codes for those words which are different between simplified Chinese or Traditional one
13:45 scw fayland: Just as what t/docs/zh-tw and t/docs/zh-cn do :)
13:45 fayland scw: so i upload my document to zh_cn.
13:45 scw s!t/!!g
13:46 fayland http://svn.openfoundry.org/p6l10n/zh_tw/S13.pod
13:46 fayland i just think there may has some mistakes.
13:46 fayland and ask what can i do
13:46 fayland contact the author directly or something else?
13:47 scw fayland: if you can commit, commit directly should be ok :p
13:48 fayland scw: but i use diffrent glossary and the appearance of simp.chinese and trad.chinese is different
13:50 lumi Why are there Chinese translations?
13:50 lumi I'm not complaining, I'm enquiring
13:50 scw fayland: different glossary? Do you means those word translated in different term? (ex: computer)
13:50 lumi Would other translations be helpful?
13:50 fayland maybe for the man who is not good at english
13:50 fayland of course.
13:50 theorbtwo The zh_tw translation should be traditional chinese; the zh_cn translation should be simplified chinese, but both should be in utf8 encoding.
13:51 fayland scw: yes.i mean that
13:51 scw fayland: That should be ok, l10n including culture :)
13:51 theorbtwo As far as I know, there's Chinese translations and not others simply because there were volunteers for the Chinese translations first.
13:52 fayland theorbtwo: we are use utf8 encoding.but the appearance is different.such as ˜Ëî} as trad. and ±êÌâ as simp.
13:52 fayland scw: that's fine.:)
13:53 scw fayland: in fact, if there are some term different in simp. in pugs/docs/zh-cn, update directly, too.
13:53 nothingmuch lumi: thinking of hebrew? latin? finnish?
13:53 scw fayland: it is translate by trad. author and convert to simp. by program :)
13:54 * nothingmuch thinks STM haskell should be the de-facto academic computation language on linux clusters
13:54 nothingmuch it can't be slower than the java overhead
13:54 nothingmuch which is a pill most are willing to swallow
13:54 nothingmuch but it looks so much more useful
13:54 lumi The only language I could translate well into is Hebrew, but I don't know of any Perl hackers who don't have decent English skills
13:54 fayland scw: autrijus ask me to change the terms. :) i'll do it later.
13:55 scw fayland++ # I am, in fact, afraid of translating :)
13:56 fayland scw: ask u a question. does pugs support the %= op?
13:56 fayland yet
13:57 * nothingmuch will write a test
13:57 scw Err, seams not.
13:57 fayland and what about multi in deep?
13:58 scw fayland: What do you mean? multi-what?
13:58 nothingmuch fayland: multi in deep?
13:59 fayland such as "multi sub infix:<%> (Us $us, Them $them) is deep { mymod($us,$them) }"
13:59 fayland is deep
13:59 theorbtwo Objects aren't yet supported, so you can't do Us $us, Them $them.
13:59 fayland maybe i should write test myself
13:59 fayland how about Int
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14:00 fayland multi sub infix:<%> (Int $us, Int $them) is deep { mymod($us,$them) }
14:00 fayland ya, i write test now. see u all later.
14:01 scw I wonder if `is' is implemented or not :p
14:01 nothingmuch i think not
14:02 nothingmuch i submitted t/var/is_constant.t as a test for is applying
14:02 nothingmuch but t/op/is.t is not really there
14:10 nothingmuch ugg
14:10 nothingmuch t/op/arith.t is not nice
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14:23 nothingmuch someone please sanity check r560
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14:39 autrijus greetings folks
14:39 * autrijus squashed more test failures
14:39 autrijus still testing, commit in a bit
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14:39 theorbtwo Looks sane to me, nm.
14:40 lumi The failure is kinda useless, it always gives the testing sub's line number
14:40 autrijus hi stevan.
14:41 stevan hello autrijus
14:42 Coke-afk ~~
14:42 hcchien_ autrijus: is length a perl6 build-in function?
14:42 Coke-afk is now known as Coke-DarnitThisI
14:42 Coke-DarnitThisI is now known as Coke_
14:44 autrijus hcchien_: string length?
14:44 hcchien_ autrijus: yes
14:44 dada hcchien_: no length anymore :-)
14:44 malaire wasn't length banned from perl6
14:44 dada AFAIK, yes
14:45 dada is spelled chars(string) or string.chars now
14:45 autrijus yeah, and underlying it's
14:45 theorbtwo Or bytes(string), depending which it is that you care about.
14:45 autrijus .bytes, .codes, .graphs, .langs
14:45 autrijus the "chars" one is aliased to one of the four
14:45 autrijus depending on the unicode supporting level.
14:45 dada wasn't that .graphemes?
14:46 autrijus no it's graphs.
14:46 dada oh, ok
14:46 dada autrijus: one question
14:46 autrijus oh btw, my ($a, $b) = (1,2) now works...
14:46 autrijus I'll commit in a bit
14:46 autrijus that is my first use of parallel comprehension
14:46 autrijus and it rocks :)
14:46 dada how can I distinguish an arrayref from an array?
14:47 stevan nice
14:47 scw autrijus: It works!!
14:47 autrijus dada: in general you cannot.
14:47 stevan actually array-refs usually show up as List types
14:47 autrijus I guess .ref maybe. but that's blurry.
14:47 dada mmm
14:48 dada I mean in Haskell
14:48 dada err, in the Haskell part of pugs, that is
14:49 dada the fact is
14:49 dada that to implement the splat operator
14:50 dada I need to distinguish an array from an arrayref from a list
14:50 autrijus oh. arrays are VArray
14:50 autrijus refs are VRef
14:50 autrijus you can use case analysis.
14:50 dada cool, thanks
14:50 dada and lists are VList?
14:50 autrijus right
14:51 autrijus t/01basic........................ok
14:51 autrijus        2/17 unexpectedly succeeded
14:51 autrijus cool. seems to work.
14:51 autrijus my (@a, @b) = (1,2,3); # what happens?
14:52 autrijus does @a get 1,2,3?
14:52 dada I think so
14:52 autrijus my (@a, @b) := (1,2,3); # @a get 1, then?
14:54 dada no, wait
14:54 dada mmm, yes, it should
14:55 dada (@a, @b) := (@b, @a); # "this should swap two arrays"
14:55 autrijus okay. that's what I thought too.
14:55 autrijus I wonder why it's not an infinite loop ;)
14:55 dada autrijus: another question
14:56 larsen autrijus: me too
14:56 larsen isn't := the binding operator ?
14:56 dada larsen: sure it is
14:56 larsen then shouldn't I use = to swap arrays ?
14:56 dada no
14:56 dada because = flattens
14:57 dada (@a, @b) = (@b, @a); # this would concatenate @b and @a and put them in @a
14:58 lumi And truncate @b?
14:58 dada probably, yes
14:59 dada autrijus: consider this: my *$a = @a;
14:59 dada autrijus: this should be "translated" to: my ($a) = @a;
14:59 dada autrijus: this means that the * should change the context in which the assignment is evaluated
14:59 autrijus yeah.
15:00 dada any clue about how to do that? :-)
15:00 dada can I assign to envContext from inside the reduce function?
15:00 fayland has joined #perl6
15:01 autrijus sure
15:01 autrijus grep for enterContext
15:01 dada ahhh, yes
15:01 dada enterContext does that?
15:02 autrijus yup.
15:02 autrijus it's not assign, mind you
15:02 autrijus it's a pad
15:02 dada wait a moment
15:02 autrijus the difference being it reverts back after the scope exits.
15:02 dada is enterContext different from enterEvalContext?
15:02 autrijus see "All About Monads", the reader monad
15:02 autrijus enterEvalContext enters a context
15:02 autrijus then eval something.
15:02 autrijus see its type
15:02 autrijus enterContext enters a context
15:03 dada ok
15:03 autrijus it takes an action
15:03 autrijus eEC takes Exp
15:03 autrijus enterEvalContext :: Cxt -> Exp -> Eval Val
15:03 autrijus enterEvalContext cxt = enterContext cxt . evalExp
15:03 dada autrijus: "see its type" sounds like "see how many legs martians have" to me :-)
15:03 autrijus I hope that is clear :)
15:04 autrijus enterEvalContext is just, first enter the context specified as first arg, then eval the exp in the 2nd arg.
15:04 dada sure, I get it
15:04 dada enterContext :: Cxt -> Eval a -> Eval a
15:05 autrijus it takes a context, and another eval action, then perform that action under the specified context.
15:05 autrijus clear as ink!
15:05 dada mmm
15:05 dada but I have no action to perform
15:05 autrijus you have something to eval, don't you?
15:05 autrijus the @a
15:05 dada yeah
15:05 dada no, rather the $a
15:06 autrijus aye
15:06 dada my *$a = @a;
15:06 dada ok, I will try to code it now :-)
15:06 autrijus my ($a, $b) := ();
15:06 autrijus what happens?
15:07 autrijus runtime error?
15:07 dada mmm
15:07 dada maybe it's just like ($a, $b) := (undef, undef);
15:08 dada so it's like $a := undef
15:08 autrijus so $a and $b are constant undefs?
15:08 dada yes
15:08 autrijus i.e. you can't assign to them?
15:08 autrijus ok, implemented as such
15:08 autrijus it's actually
15:08 autrijus $a := not()
15:08 theorbtwo That seems like very useless behavior...
15:08 autrijus so we get
15:08 autrijus @b := not()
15:08 autrijus as well.
15:10 dada I'm not sure about it
15:11 dada binding should be (more or less) the same binding used for subs
15:11 autrijus I mean,
15:11 autrijus @b := undef
15:11 autrijus will result in +@b being 1
15:11 autrijus which is certainly what we want.
15:11 autrijus so not() is right.
15:13 PerlJam autrijus: I think that  my ($a, $b) := ();  should be an error.
15:14 PerlJam (not that what I think counts for much :-)
15:14 autrijus I was trying to find it in specs.
15:14 autrijus Apocs or Syns.
15:14 autrijus maybe warrants a p6l post again :-/
15:14 PerlJam I think you won't find it.  IIRC, that behavior is up for grabs.
15:16 PerlJam actually, maybe it shouldn't be an error, but also $a and $b shouldn't be bound to anything
15:16 theorbtwo I think my ($a, $b) := (); should be error, or nop... but I don't know what makes the most sense in.
15:16 theorbtwo @a=(); my ($a, $b) := @a;
15:16 PerlJam theorbtwo: I think nop makes the most sense now.
15:16 autrijus I'll use const undef for now
15:16 autrijus until a ruling is made on either p6c or p6l.
15:17 PerlJam theorbtwo: that would make $a an alias for @a and $b is bound to nothing
15:17 autrijus (read: easiest to implement)
15:17 PerlJam (ie, it's free)
15:17 autrijus s/const undef/const not()/
15:17 theorbtwo Do we have a mechinisim in place for generating warnings?
15:18 autrijus no we do not. do you want to design one?
15:22 fayland has quit IRC ()
15:27 autrijus ok, I think multiarg LHS for both := and = are done.
15:27 autrijus hash_ref fails, though. weird
15:29 autrijus my $a = (1,2);
15:29 autrijus is $a 1?
15:29 autrijus or [1,2]?
15:30 theorbtwo Are we checking ($a, $b)=($b, $a) ?
15:30 sahadev has joined #perl6
15:31 autrijus prolly not.
15:31 autrijus my () = ();
15:31 autrijus syntax error?
15:32 autrijus I'm making it a syntax error.
15:32 rgs [rafael@grubert ~]$ perl -e 'my()'
15:32 rgs Can't declare stub in "my" at -e line 1, at EOF
15:32 rgs nice error message :)
15:33 autrijus C:\work\pugs>pugs -e "my () = ()"
15:33 autrijus unexpected ")"
15:33 autrijus expecting variable name
15:33 autrijus pugs is superior! :)
15:36 wolveria1 autrijus: re: my $a = (1,2); I think apos say now that a list in scalar context doesn't flatten
15:36 wolveria1 is now known as wolverian
15:36 autrijus ok.
15:36 wolverian so $a would be a List presumably.
15:38 autrijus let me get this clear
15:38 autrijus my $a = (1); # List
15:38 autrijus my $a = 1; # Int
15:38 autrijus correct?
15:39 wolverian I have no idea. I hope it's not (1,) ;)
15:39 wolverian let me check the apos.
15:40 autrijus (1,) is sad ;)
15:40 autrijus (and I know where it comes from.)
15:41 wolverian (I share your dirty secret.)
15:42 * autrijus cackles
15:43 autrijus this is too complex :(
15:43 autrijus and not well specced. we need tests!
15:43 autrijus (and post those tests to larry)
15:43 autrijus starting from
15:43 autrijus my () = ();
15:43 autrijus my $a = ();
15:43 autrijus my ($a) = ();
15:43 autrijus my ($a) = (1);
15:43 autrijus my ($a) = (1, 2);
15:43 autrijus my ($a, $b) = (1);
15:43 autrijus etc
15:44 autrijus and also s/=/:=/g
15:44 wolverian hrm. you need to ask this on p6-l
15:44 wolverian or I can do that, if you want
15:44 autrijus please do that.
15:44 * autrijus is still catching failing tests left and right
15:44 wolverian as far as I can understand, the apos say that , in scalar context generates a list
15:45 autrijus oh, and also use @ somewhere too.
15:45 autrijus riight...
15:45 autrijus (1,) then?
15:45 wolverian or list(1)
15:45 * autrijus shudders
15:45 autrijus or [1]
15:45 wolverian yes.
15:45 autrijus just to be safe
15:46 wolverian oh, why doesn't mutt have a history of addresses I've sent to :)
15:47 autrijus my ($a) is different from my $a it seems...
15:47 autrijus or I'm totally on crack.
15:47 autrijus my ($a) = (1,2);
15:47 autrijus my $a = (1,2);
15:47 autrijus my ($a,) = (1,2);
15:47 autrijus ;)
15:47 ingy hola
15:47 autrijus hola ingy.
15:47 autrijus I'm on crack it seems :-/
15:48 autrijus the blue sugar cubes things
15:48 ingy haha
15:48 Shillo has joined #perl6
15:49 autrijus hi Shillo.
15:49 ingy going to breakfast&
15:49 Shillo Hullo!
15:49 Shillo Was reading the IRC logs and then asked myself why wouldn't I just connect. :)
15:50 autrijus =)
15:50 autrijus so, first time here?
15:50 theorbtwo First time caller, long-time listener?
15:50 Shillo Miroslav Silovic from the mailing list... I followed up some of your posts. Not very creatively. ;)
15:50 autrijus =)
15:50 autrijus cool!
15:50 Shillo First time here... ummm.. don't remember. I think no, but the last time wasn't much happening.
15:50 autrijus now here is a very happening place.
15:51 Shillo Yeah, saw in the logs.
15:51 * autrijus decides to split ruleVarDeclaration into ruleVarDeclarationSingle and ruleVarDeclarationList.
15:51 theorbtwo It tends to be a lot more interesting around here when autrijus is up.
15:51 Shillo Hehe. :)
15:51 theorbtwo ...and about.
15:52 autrijus nah. I also have my fair share of backlogging :)
15:52 * Shillo just wants Perl6 to have CLOS-style method combinators.
15:52 Shillo Easy to make me happy. ;)
15:52 autrijus write tests! write dialects! :)
15:52 autrijus or, just try to explain them here :)
15:52 Shillo He! use Lang::CL :)
15:53 autrijus there is no Lang::CL on cpan
15:53 autrijus 6pan, maybe? :)
15:53 Shillo CL -> Common LISP
15:53 Shillo What impressed me about Perl6 is that it's the first mainstream language that has most of it.
15:54 Shillo (while staying practical)
15:54 pjcj Perl6 is mainstream?
15:54 * Shillo pjcj: :p More than CL.
15:54 autrijus perl6 is practical?
15:55 hcchien_ t/op/sub_return_values...........ok  # cool
15:55 Shillo Oh, method combinators...
15:55 Shillo method bla(Dog $x) is before {...}
15:55 Shillo method bla(Dog $x) is before {...}
15:56 Shillo method bla(Dog $x) is after {...}
15:56 Shillo method bla(Dog $x) is around {...}
15:56 Shillo method bla(Dog $x) { ... }
15:56 Shillo Order of execution of these would be 4, 1, 2, 5, 3
15:56 wolverian autrijus: sent.
15:56 autrijus cool.
15:56 nothingmuch 16:40] lumi: The failure is kinda useless, it always gives the testing sub's line number
15:56 autrijus oh. I thought it already has PRE and POST blocks
15:57 autrijus that you can hook on
15:57 Shillo If around calls next_method();, that is. Otherwise, just the 4th would run.
15:57 wolverian oh, wow, there is already a thread about those.
15:57 nothingmuch this is a bug tested for in t/magical/callerposition.t
15:57 wolverian dammit. :)
15:57 Shillo No, note that all the methods have the same declarations. They're all supposed to run.
15:57 autrijus dammit. sorry.
15:58 autrijus ah. multiple dispatch that all happens
15:58 autrijus I like it.
15:58 wolverian well, I'm a bit more specific than Aldo Calpini's post
15:58 wolverian so I don't think it's dangerous.
15:58 Shillo This becomes important if signatures aren't the same. For example, around method runs first even if it's not the closest match.
15:59 Shillo (and you want to use these to catch exceptions from all the other methods, or do BEFORE/KEEP/UNDO blocks for the whole thing)
15:59 rafl_ is now known as rafl
15:59 Shillo This kinda ties into Luke's post from today, about making MMDs into real objects.
15:59 autrijus r561 landed!
15:59 autrijus * lone blocks without trailing semicolon now runs; multi ple variable assignment now (sort of) works
16:00 autrijus we're down to 3 failed test scripts.
16:00 Shillo autrijus: Woot! :)
16:00 nothingmuch w00t
16:01 nothingmuch autrijus: i started some rules tests
16:01 nothingmuch starting with the really really basic crap
16:01 nothingmuch then converting t/op/re_tests from perl5 (doing that now)
16:01 autrijus nothingmuch: try reuse ambahal (?)'s tests
16:01 autrijus he already converted all for us
16:01 cls_bsd great!!
16:01 nothingmuch ah
16:01 nothingmuch i didn't know that
16:01 nothingmuch where are they?
16:01 autrijus see past p6c topic
16:01 autrijus a sec
16:01 nothingmuch ah
16:02 nothingmuch ok, i'll just play integrator then =)
16:02 nothingmuch in that case, i can get on to real grammars =)
16:02 autrijus nothingmuch: http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/131
16:03 chunzi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
16:03 autrijus ah, so it's our very own malaire
16:03 autrijus I hear he've generated them by a script
16:04 autrijus so please coordinate. I'd very much like them to all land to pugs.
16:04 nothingmuch will do
16:06 * autrijus procs the remaining three failures
16:07 * nothingmuch ponders how to attack OOP tests
16:07 autrijus no p5 for those?
16:08 nothingmuch there are
16:08 nothingmuch t/op/method.t
16:08 nothingmuch but this is not very, err, perl6ish
16:09 autrijus time to play porters? :)
16:09 autrijus well, another vector is exegeses
16:10 nothingmuch i toyed with unit testing some stuff
16:10 nothingmuch but i think it's too early to start
16:10 nothingmuch the exegesis are purposely broad
16:10 nothingmuch and cover a whole lot of everything
16:10 autrijus it's not too early... OO is the next thing in sight
16:10 nothingmuch not for OO tests
16:10 nothingmuch for exegesis examples
16:10 autrijus ahh.
16:11 autrijus A12 also contains many test stuff.
16:11 nothingmuch for example, e02 has autochomping, is constant, my Int, sub sigs, traditional subs
16:11 nothingmuch i'll look at a12 more closely
16:12 Shillo Going through tests... #LEAVE { push @leve, [ $i, +@enter ] } <-- should be @leave. Trivial but anyway. :)
16:13 autrijus Shillo: if I give you committer bit, will you fix it? :)
16:13 Shillo No. I'm behind a firewall, miles high. :/
16:13 Shillo This is IRC over http. :(
16:13 autrijus eh? HTTP POST should be fine, no?
16:13 autrijus pugs uses a http as repository.
16:14 Shillo Hmm... Need to learn svn obviously.
16:14 Shillo Need to /install/ svn, too. ;)
16:14 autrijus subversion.tigris.org
16:14 autrijus or, tortoisesvn if you're on win32.
16:14 Shillo Just did urpmi subversion. ;)
16:15 Shillo Mandrake's currently sucking.
16:15 autrijus nod.
16:15 Shillo Sucking as is *sllllluuuuuurrrrppp*, not at in *sux* ;)
16:16 Shillo *grumble* Need to do urpmi.update
16:16 nothingmuch Shillo: - sorry, i couldn't really syntax check that since the line is commented out =)
16:17 nothingmuch i won't fix it though, so that you're forced to install svn/svk ;-)
16:17 Shillo Yeah. I noticed, 'swhy I said it was trivial.
16:17 Shillo Lemme actually take a good look at the whole thing before I accept the haching rights.
16:17 autrijus Shillo: also give me your email when you're ready :)
16:17 Shillo [email@hidden.address]
16:18 Shillo (that's for later ;) )
16:18 autrijus har.
16:18 Shillo Hmm, need ghc, too.
16:19 autrijus ghc should also be part of urpmi'able things.
16:19 Shillo MDK repo has it.
16:19 Shillo Yeah.
16:19 autrijus actually, I think pugs is also urpmiable.
16:19 autrijus thanks to a certain rgs here.
16:19 Shillo Heh.
16:19 Shillo Although... I plan to switch to Ubuntu at work soon.
16:19 Shillo As in, the next 2-3 months.
16:19 rgs mhh
16:20 Shillo MDK 10.1... well... how to say it... Windows ME was positively stable and bug free in comparison.
16:20 rgs ubuntu is such a small distro. I'm sure they don't even have ghc.
16:20 * autrijus looks at rgs :)
16:20 rgs but you have a point.
16:20 autrijus yeah, but it can have debian universe.
16:20 Shillo rgs: I have a 25 gigs of archive.ubuntu.com mirrored on my local drive. :)
16:20 arcady you can have the union of ubuntu and debian
16:20 arcady it actually sort of works
16:20 rgs right.
16:21 arcady for such useful things as X.org
16:21 hlafarge has quit IRC ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'")
16:21 Shillo rgs: Although, to be honest, I'm really not sure why 10.1 sucked so badly for me. It just /can't/ be bad QA, some things were way too obvious.
16:21 Shillo Like, kdm hanging.
16:21 Shillo Or, zsh dumps core.
16:21 rgs ooh, weird.
16:22 Shillo NForce 2 chipset could be the reason, but that would just introduce flakiness, not insta-deaths.
16:22 rgs several in-house developers here use zsh. core dumps would have been noticed.
16:22 Shillo And then there were just plain weird problems.
16:22 Shillo -- I used prompt module.
16:22 Shillo Worked without it, but with a strange 1 sec startups.
16:23 Shillo As for the just plain weird... bluetooth dialup.
16:23 Shillo Spend 3 days trying to debug that. Traffic dumps were crazy.
16:24 Shillo It'd connect, exchange network setup, run the ipup script (I could be very wrong about the name of this one - the one that gets run after the machine IP address and DNS come down the pipe) and then it'd promptly disconnect.
16:24 Shillo (not that Bluetooth dialup is common, but still)
16:25 Shillo Ick! Need to go, and urpmi ghc has half an hour ETA. Talk to you all in a day or two! :)
16:25 nothingmuch ciao Shillo
16:25 nothingmuch those tests won't pass anytime soon anyway!
16:26 * autrijus grins.
16:26 Shillo nothingmuch: :)
16:26 nothingmuch autrijus: different plans?
16:26 autrijus nothingmuch: no, same w/ you
16:26 nothingmuch ah
16:26 autrijus my plan now is to squash test failures
16:26 Shillo has left "Leaving"
16:27 * nothingmuch was getting optimistic
16:27 autrijus and try/catch/given
16:27 autrijus and reapply newest p6l clarifications.
16:27 autrijus small things.
16:27 autrijus but important to get the overall quality up.
16:27 nothingmuch (smartmatch!)
16:27 nothingmuch try can be just try, btw
16:27 autrijus I think it's easy enough to be done as an exercise for lambdafolk
16:28 nothingmuch without catch, for the meanwhile
16:28 PerlJam nothingmuch: doesn't it almost have to be because catch needs smartmatch semantics to really work?
16:29 PerlJam I guess we could fake it with strings though
16:29 autrijus it's already stubbed w/ strings now
16:29 justatheory has joined #perl6
16:30 nothingmuch if catch is not a given block now, but just silently takes anything
16:30 nothingmuch i.e. try {}
16:30 nothingmuch which is eval {} for perl5 heads
16:30 nothingmuch then try works
16:30 nothingmuch without smartmatch
16:31 autrijus try{} always need to be followed by catch?
16:31 nothingmuch no, try without catch is like try with catch anything
16:31 autrijus ahh.
16:31 nothingmuch however, true catch requires given, which in turn requires smartmatch
16:31 nothingmuch which probably likes to have isa
16:31 nothingmuch and rules
16:32 autrijus nothingmuch: you want to implement try{}?
16:32 autrijus I can walk you thru :)
16:32 autrijus will take ~2min
16:32 nothingmuch i think my mind is too cooked to understand what i'm doing
16:32 nothingmuch so don't waste it on me =)
16:32 wolverian there is no catch
16:32 wolverian there's CATCH { }
16:32 autrijus there is no spoon
16:32 theorbtwo There is only fork().
16:33 autrijus /me sobs.nice :)
16:33 autrijus gah. control characters. bad ssh.
16:33 autrijus (or bad screen, or bad irssi.)
16:33 theorbtwo Ah, was just about to ask.
16:33 wolverian try { ...; CATCH { when StupidError { puts "U STOOPID!" } } }
16:34 wolverian er. s/puts/say/ ...
16:34 * autrijus parses "ST", "OO", "PID"
16:34 wolverian (too much ruby for me.)
16:34 nothingmuch wolverian: see t/base/try.t
16:34 nothingmuch i think it was the first i wrote
16:34 PerlJam autrijus: ^U is your friend though ;-)
16:35 nothingmuch or at least the first i started
16:35 autrijus ;)
16:35 autrijus try{} parsed.
16:35 autrijus doing eval.
16:35 wolverian nothingmuch: nice :)
16:37 wolverian gotta run. cheers.
16:37 nothingmuch ciao wolverian!
16:38 autrijus see ya
16:40 autrijus implemented.
16:40 autrijus testing
16:41 nothingmuch thanks!
16:42 _metaperl has joined #perl6
16:43 theorbtwo Ha!  My pearpc box finally has working networking!
16:44 nothingmuch theorbtwo++; # subetha <-> xemacs in 8 hours!
16:44 autrijus gawd I love ContT.
16:44 theorbtwo 8 hours?
16:44 autrijus    "try" -> do
16:44 autrijus        val <- resetT $ evalExp (head exps)
16:44 autrijus        case val of
16:44 autrijus            VError _ _  -> retEmpty
16:44 autrijus            _           -> retVal val
16:44 autrijus that's all it takes.
16:45 theorbtwo I think that's a little bit optimistic.  I'm not autrijus.
16:45 nothingmuch ;-)
16:46 autrijus ok($lived, "try weakened death");
16:46 * nothingmuch dances
16:48 autrijus r562
16:49 nothingmuch yay yay!
16:50 hcchien_ should we put t/0*.t to t/base or others?
16:50 nothingmuch now you you don't owe me anymore
16:50 nothingmuch i'll have to write new tests
16:50 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
16:50 _metaperl is now known as metaperl
16:58 autrijus hcchien_: I think so now
16:58 hcchien_ is now known as hcchien
17:10 nothingmuch base seems to be basic stuff
17:10 nothingmuch perhaps not base, but something else?
17:10 nothingmuch i think it should be put in the blue sugar cube dir
17:11 hcchien nothingmuch: I think so. :)
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17:17 dada has joined #Perl6
17:18 metaperl_ can I create a hash whose values are arrays and derefence them in pugs?
17:18 dadaumpa has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:18 metaperl_ and can I use each or keys on a hash in pugs?
17:18 autrijus 1. multidim is not there.
17:18 autrijus 2. you can use
17:19 autrijus for %hash.kv -> $k, $v { ... }
17:20 lhooq has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:20 malaire btw, I put my perl5-script which converts (actually: tries to convert...) re_tests into PGE-format to http://laire.info/markus/perl/re_tests.html , just in case anyone is interested in hacking with them. (I'm currently trying to learn Haskell, and I'm not sure whether I'm going to fix/change these scripts anytime soon...)
17:21 * autrijus looks at nothingmuch
17:21 autrijus malaire: thanks!
17:24 nothingmuch sorry
17:24 * nothingmuch will ttyl
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17:31 spb has left "                 ..................."
17:32 dada how do I "cast" an Array to a List?
17:32 dada or, how do I get all the elements of an Array?
17:33 dada is enterEvalContext "List" vals enough?
17:34 dada or do I need doSlice?
17:34 autrijus you need a fromValue.
17:34 autrijus val <- enterEvalContext "List" exp
17:34 autrijus now val is of "Val" type
17:34 dada mmm ok
17:34 autrijus to get a [Val] from Val:
17:34 autrijus list <- fromValue val
17:34 autrijus in fact, you can use fromValue to obtain almost any time.
17:35 autrijus haskell well figure it out based on how you use it later.
17:35 autrijus if you want annotation:
17:35 autrijus (list :: [Val]) <- fromValue val
17:35 autrijus but you won't need them in most of the casts.
17:37 metaperl_ has the fat comma lost its stringification semantics?
17:37 metaperl_ my %mates = (
17:37 metaperl_  'jane' => 'joe',
17:37 metaperl_  sally => 'bob',
17:37 metaperl_  janice => 'bill'
17:37 metaperl_ );
17:38 autrijus I think so.
17:38 metaperl_ sally => 'bob' # yields parse error
17:38 autrijus not very sure.
17:38 metaperl_ oh
17:38 dada no no
17:38 dada fat comma should still do stringification
17:38 autrijus But C<< => >> still autoquotes any bare identifier to its immediate
17:38 autrijus left (horizontal whitespace allowed but not comments).  
17:38 autrijus mea culpa.
17:38 autrijus so, a bug.
17:38 autrijus gah, even more lookaheads.
17:38 * autrijus hugs parsec
17:39 metaperl_ autrijus, please look at this: http://hcoop.net/~terry/perl/ta​lks/p6-junctions//simpleiter.p6
17:39 metaperl_ the for is throwing a long error message
17:39 metaperl_ my pugs is for 562 release
17:40 theorbtwo Put parens around the listy bit of the for.
17:40 theorbtwo Er... Hm.
17:40 metaperl_ bingo
17:40 metaperl_ refresh the URL to see a working program
17:41 metaperl_ thanks theorbtwo
17:41 autrijus oh btw. feel free to replace eval''
17:41 autrijus to try{}
17:41 dada I didn't got it right
17:41 autrijus in tests that has runtime error.
17:41 autrijus instead of parse error.
17:41 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:41 dada vals <- if isaType "Array" exps
17:41 dada    then fromValue (enterEvalContext "List" exps)
17:42 autrijus I think the then needs to be indented after if
17:42 autrijus I think.
17:42 autrijus also, it's monadic
17:42 autrijus so you need
17:42 autrijus vals <- if isaType "Array" exps
17:42 autrijus    then do
17:42 dada actually, it says
17:42 autrijus         val <- enterEvalContext "List" exps
17:42 dada Probable cause: `isaType' is applied to too few arguments in the call
17:43 autrijus        fromValue val
17:43 autrijus i.e. you can't just nest fromValue with enterEvalContext.
17:43 autrijus need a "do" expression.
17:43 autrijus (or a =<<)
17:44 dada yes
17:44 dada but I still miss a parameter to isaType...
17:44 autrijus you need cxt
17:44 autrijus I think.
17:44 autrijus you can obtain it from
17:44 autrijus cxt <- asks envContent
17:44 autrijus err wrong
17:44 autrijus you need cls
17:44 autrijus cls     <- asks envClasses
17:45 dada I see, I see
17:45 autrijus ctx    <- asks envContext
17:45 autrijus if isaType cls "Array" cxt
17:45 autrijus etc.
17:45 stevan so try {} is working, but not CATCH right?
17:45 autrijus please abstract them away.
17:45 autrijus I want a
17:45 autrijus bool <- currentContextIs "Array"
17:45 autrijus or something like that.
17:46 autrijus but you can roll by hand too.
17:46 autrijus stevan: yup.
17:46 stevan autrijus: so where is the error? $! $@
17:47 dada autrijus: no, I don't need the currentContext. I need to know if exps contains an array (or an arrayref)
17:48 autrijus stevan: should be in $!. a sec.
17:48 autrijus dada: oh oh.
17:48 autrijus that won't do then.
17:48 autrijus you need something more clever...
17:49 stevan autrijus: also this will die pugs -e 'my $val = try { "foo" }; say $val;'
17:49 autrijus valType val
17:49 autrijus this should work
17:49 autrijus i.e. it's a function that returns a stringified representation of val's type
17:49 metaperl_ can a hash have an array reference as the value of the key? This isn't working as I expect: http://hcoop.net/~terry/perl/​talks/p6-junctions/all-all.p6
17:49 stevan I am not sure if try{} will return anything, but I think it should not die
17:50 autrijus metaperl_: is shape() is not yet implemented.
17:50 autrijus tests welcome!
17:50 metaperl_ so I cannot use array references as hash values?
17:50 stevan metaperl_: t/op/multidimensional_array.t has some tests for this stuff in it, if you want to add to them
17:50 autrijus stevan: try{} is only a construct now
17:51 metaperl_ also, maybe I will create a test case for a hash having a trailing comma
17:51 autrijus it's not yet a proper Syn.
17:51 autrijus stevan: i.e. can't be Expr.
17:51 * metaperl_ checks
17:51 autrijus stevan: just toplevel Stmt.
17:51 stevan autrijus: ok
17:51 metaperl_ %hash = (a => b,) ; # fails
17:51 * stevan waits patiently :)
17:51 metaperl_ perl5 allowed that dangling comma
17:52 PerlJam metaperl_: perl6 will too at some point.
17:53 autrijus metaperl_: right. it's pugs' bug. just adda test :)
17:53 autrijus or grep for one.
17:53 autrijus stevan: r563. $! is now set.
17:53 * autrijus starts to write today's journal
17:54 hcchien there is no $/?
17:56 PerlJam um ... perl6's $/ means something different than perl5's $/ which is now a method/attribute on the filehandle (I think)
17:56 crysflame journal? public?
17:56 PerlJam crysflame: http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal
17:57 crysflame neet
17:57 autrijus larry wants my ().
17:57 autrijus we'll do my ().
17:57 PerlJam What's my() mean?
17:58 dada sgrunt
17:58 dada Couldn't match `Val' against `[Exp]'
17:58 autrijus    my () = (foo())
17:58 autrijus it could be reduced to
17:58 autrijus    list(foo())
17:59 autrijus dada: mm?
18:00 dada vals <- case valType exps of
18:00 dada    "Array" -> do
18:00 dada I can't do valType exps, because exps is [Exp]
18:00 autrijus yeah.
18:00 dada and valType wants Val
18:00 autrijus that is correct.
18:01 autrijus so you may wish to persumably evaluate the exps
18:01 autrijus into val
18:01 autrijus or something.
18:01 autrijus you can't tell, from looking at an exp
18:01 PerlJam dada: looks like you need to iterate ... er recurse ;)
18:01 dada in fact, I need to check before that exps contains only 1 thing, and that thing is an array
18:01 autrijus whether it will return a list or not.
18:01 obra 'morning
18:01 autrijus dada: ok. you can do that as:
18:01 autrijus case exps of
18:02 autrijus    [Val v] | valType v == "Array" -> do
18:02 autrijus    _ -> do
18:02 dada mmm cool
18:02 autrijus yo obra.
18:04 dada now that
18:05 dada what is an "Eval a" type?
18:05 dada        Expected type: Eval a
18:05 dada        Inferred type: [Exp]
18:05 luqui has joined #perl6
18:06 autrijus you can cast a to Eval a
18:06 autrijus via "return"
18:06 PerlJam dada: what are you hacking into pugs?
18:06 autrijus you can cast Eval a into a
18:06 autrijus via "<-"
18:06 dada PerlJam: unary *
18:06 PerlJam oh!  dada++ keep ahcking
18:06 PerlJam er, hakcing
18:06 autrijus "retVal" is also commonly used if you are returning a value.
18:06 PerlJam er, hacking dammit!
18:06 * Limbic_Region notes autrijus's sleep cycle slowly shifting in phase with the US and notes pretty soon he will be sleeping when everyone else is awake
18:06 PerlJam Limbic_Region: or he just won't sleep.
18:06 autrijus that too.
18:06 Limbic_Region s/everyone else/everyone else in Taiwan/
18:07 obra that better not happen. since folks from .us and .eu will be in .tw soon
18:07 luqui are we going to get slice assignment working soon?
18:08 luqui I've been trying to figure out how to do it... unsucessfully
18:08 luqui s/c/cc/
18:09 autrijus luqui:
18:09 autrijus my ($a, $b) = (1,2);
18:09 autrijus this works now.
18:09 autrijus ($a, $b) = (1, 2); # not.
18:10 autrijus need to unity both.
18:10 autrijus now we have a ruling from larry, that is
18:11 luqui 'my' should be an inline operator
18:11 luqui my ($a, $b) is like do { my $a;  my $b;  ($a, $b) }  everywhere, barring scoping issues
18:12 rgs my($a, $b) would be (my $a, my $b)
18:12 luqui right
18:13 luqui which is illegal
18:13 luqui since you can't use my in an expression
18:13 luqui (but it shouldn't be)
18:13 luqui Something of a problem for the parser is the ability to do foo(my $x, $x)
18:14 luqui you have to be smart about how the parse tree communicates scoping stuff
18:15 luqui cabal design call today; is there anything I should mention?
18:15 PerlJam That's an interesting way to say "undef"
18:15 luqui if foo accepts references, it might not be
18:15 autrijus luqui: parrot AST? :)
18:15 luqui er, rw params
18:15 autrijus never mind
18:16 autrijus luqui: MMD is still blurry. I think it's the most blurry part.
18:16 luqui as you can see, I'm working on fixing that
18:16 luqui We'll definitely be talking about my recent thread
18:16 autrijus yes you are. I'm eager to see new specs.
18:16 autrijus on and get unary = committed in Syns
18:16 autrijus if you had not yet done that.
18:16 autrijus s/on/oh/
18:17 luqui I'm on it
18:17 autrijus 1395 tests now. fear
18:17 hcchien tests++
18:17 luqui wow
18:17 luqui how many does perl have?
18:17 dada countless
18:17 autrijus much more.
18:18 PerlJam luqui: is the meaning of ($a,$b) := () well-defined?
18:18 rgs the magnitude order is 100 * more
18:18 Juerd_ say "no_plan"; say "$_ ok" for 1...;
18:18 Juerd_ Testing infinity ;)
18:18 rgs but it depends on platform, compilation options etc.
18:18 autrijus Juerd_: lol.
18:18 hcchien I need a faster laptop to do so many tests, since I have to make three times a day. :p
18:18 luqui PerlJam: yeah, error
18:18 Juerd_ How else would you test that it really loops from 1 to inf? :)
18:18 luqui it's like sub foo ($a, $b) {...}  foo()
18:18 autrijus hcchien: "make clean; perl Makefile.PL; make optimized"
18:19 PerlJam oh good.
18:19 autrijus luqui: try write that down!
18:19 autrijus luqui: I mean, the := and = semantics
18:19 autrijus the "is like" thing is of crucial importance, yet glossed over in Syns
18:19 Juerd_ autrijus: := uses the same semantics as sub signatures
18:19 autrijus Juerd_: I know.
18:19 Juerd_ ok
18:19 luqui fixing unary = first
18:19 luqui but ok
18:19 PerlJam Juerd_: that fact is just sub-documented.
18:19 autrijus ($a, $b) := ($b, $a);
18:20 autrijus vs
18:20 autrijus @fib := (1, 1, (@fib Y @fib[1...])).map:{ $^a + $^b })
18:20 autrijus (eager vs lazy evaluation)
18:20 autrijus one is wrong.
18:20 autrijus not sure which one is.
18:21 * luqui isn't either
18:21 autrijus @fib := (1, 1, (@fib Y @fib[1...]).map:{ $^a + $^b })
18:21 autrijus luqui: so bring it up to cabal :)
18:21 autrijus that is high level enough I think :)
18:21 autrijus "abstract policy"-wise, that is
18:21 PerlJam I'd think that second one needs a little more syntactic help to manufacture a generator  (but that's just MHO)
18:22 * luqui starts a list of things to talk about today
18:23 autrijus PerlJam: it Just Works in haskell :)
18:23 autrijus PerlJam: but yeah, if syn help is needed, I'd like to know how it looks like.
18:24 luqui PerlJam: map is a generator
18:24 luqui another thing is whether it's COW.  Not an issue in haskell
18:24 dada autrijus: I don't understand how doSlice works
18:24 dada doSlice :: [Exp] -> [Val] -> [VInt] -> Maybe (Val, [VInt])
18:24 luqui @fib = (1, 1, (@fib Y ...))
18:24 luqui @fib[3] = 42
18:24 dada autrijus: why 3 arguments?
18:25 luqui what's @fib[4]
18:25 Juerd_ Let's just hard code @fib
18:25 Juerd_ The numbers won't change any time soon ;)
18:25 PerlJam heh
18:25 autrijus heh
18:25 autrijus that's an legacy
18:25 autrijus just put [] in the first slot.
18:25 metaperl_ so how do I iterate through an array, assigning each element of the array to a variable i and execute a block using i
18:25 autrijus sorry for that, btw.
18:25 dada autrijus: ok
18:25 autrijus I'll refactor it.
18:26 * autrijus needs to sleep :)
18:26 autrijus metaperl_: foreach surely?
18:26 obra sleep is good for you, autrijus
18:26 PerlJam and when you say @fib[50] = 42; does it have to generate all of @fib[1..49] first?
18:26 obra you'll be a 10x programmer when you wake up.
18:26 Juerd_ metaperl_: for @foo { my $foo = $_; { ... }($foo) }
18:26 metaperl_ perl6 has no foreach
18:26 autrijus for, then. same difference
18:26 Juerd_ I don't see the point in not using aliasing
18:26 luqui he's only 8x now
18:27 * metaperl_ checks t/for.t
18:27 luqui Juerd_: what do you mean?
18:27 hcchien 20x, but make some mistakes? :p
18:27 autrijus okay, foreach is now illegal.
18:27 autrijus committing
18:27 * luqui is 0.5x with ECC
18:28 Juerd_ luqui: "assigning ecah element ..."
18:28 Juerd_ Why assign.
18:28 Juerd_ autrijus: &foreach ::= &CORE::for;  # now it has ;)
18:28 autrijus except for is a Syn
18:28 autrijus not a App
18:28 autrijus so doesn't work.
18:28 autrijus you need macros for that.
18:29 autrijus now, if you can formulate for into a App... I'm all ears :)
18:29 luqui autrijus: I don't think for is a syn in real perl
18:29 PerlJam autrijus: template haskell :)
18:29 autrijus luqui: oh?
18:29 autrijus luqui: I'd like to know which is Syn and which is not.
18:29 luqui it's a statement:for, and it has standard statement parsing
18:29 wolverian yay, lwall replied.
18:29 autrijus wait, wait, statement: ?
18:29 luqui or something like that
18:29 autrijus never mentioned anywhere.
18:29 autrijus certainly not in synopses.
18:30 autrijus I can only implement specced things :)
18:30 luqui hmm so it's not
18:30 * luqui adds that to list
18:30 metaperl_ I cant get this program to run... I think the error message is about the wrong lines: http://hcoop.net/~terry/perl/​talks/p6-junctions/all-any.p6
18:30 autrijus I'll really sleep now. have fun, and may your fruitful discussions bore crystal clear semantics!
18:30 * autrijus waves &
18:31 obra night, autrijus
18:31 luqui night
18:31 PerlJam luqui: Are you working with pmichaud on pge?  Or just the grammar and specifications?
18:31 luqui try $epsiolon > all(...)
18:32 luqui PerlJam: I sortof am, but not actually
18:32 luqui I was going to, but pm likes to commit in big chunks
18:32 luqui so it's hard to make incremental progress
18:32 dada anybody knows how to coerce a `Maybe (Val, [VInt])' into a `Val'? :-)
18:32 luqui I'm sitting around until we have the machinery to write perl 6 in perl 6
18:32 luqui then I'll get to do some serious work
18:33 luqui (I'm already doing a little bit of that)
18:33 PerlJam luqui: That's strange.  His other project (pmwiki) gets released early and often (so much so that there will sometimes be multiple releases in a single day)
18:33 luqui hmm, yeah, that is strange
18:34 PerlJam luqui: what pugs work are you doing?
18:35 * PerlJam is interested in "merging" the development effort and thinks that pugs + p6rules is the quickest way to get us bootstrapping
18:35 luqui nothing in particular on the queue right now.  I'm gradually doing builtins.kwid
18:35 luqui PerlJam: no kidding
18:35 dada luqui: AAARGH
18:35 luqui that's excellent, it's exactly what we need
18:35 luqui dada: hmm?
18:35 obra PerlJam: I think that everybody's already drawing from everybody else. patrick's certainly finding pugs useful
18:35 dada luqui: your reply on p6l
18:36 dada luqui: about *$a on LHS being illegal without a bind
18:36 PerlJam obra: sure, but if the people that know p6rules inside and out can get to implementing them in haskell, that would be best IMHO  :)
18:36 luqui with my behind it, yes.
18:36 luqui dada: why aaargh?
18:37 dada luqui: because I'm trying to make it work :-)
18:37 luqui PerlJam: the problem is that those people don't know haskell very work
18:37 luqui s/work/well/ :-)
18:37 luqui (reading and typing at the same time ;-)
18:37 dada luqui: and you're adding a whole level of complexity I didn't thought of
18:38 luqui the fact that that damn binding needs infinite lookahead kind of complexity?
18:38 dada no, the fact that I'm implementing unary * without worrying about where it is used
18:38 PerlJam luqui: indeed.  Which is why I'm asking questions.  Are you learning haskell?  I'm wondering how much prodding I should apply towards pmichaud regarding learning haskell  :-)
18:39 luqui PerlJam: I'm doing my best to learn it
18:39 luqui I actually took a stab at starting the p6rule implementation the other day
18:39 luqui and failed
18:39 PerlJam luqui: heh ... me too :)
18:40 * PerlJam doesn't grok enough haskell yet either
18:40 luqui dada: I'm thinking, since binding creates variables, that we should have a bind operator
18:40 luqui that takes special syntax, argument list syntax
18:40 luqui Don't worry about the binding unary * yet
18:41 luqui it's an ugly part of the language, and it ought to change
18:41 * luqui adds that to the list
18:41 PerlJam but I was reading about template haskell last night and I'm completely convinced that haskell has all the machinery to not only make it happen, but for someone with the right haskell-fu, to make it happen relatively easily
18:41 luqui template haskell?
18:42 PerlJam http://www.haskell.org/th/
18:42 luqui We might not even need that
18:42 luqui we parse with monads, our return values are other monads
18:42 crysflame PerlJam: you've found autrijus's supply of crack!
18:42 * crysflame phears
18:43 crysflame also i agree
18:43 luqui the problem I ran into was embedded codeblocks
18:43 luqui because I don't know how Eval works at all
18:43 vladtz has joined #perl6
18:44 metaperl_ here is the talk on Perl 6 Junctions I am giving at our Perl Mongers meeting tonight. Thanks guys for all your help: http://www.hcoop.net/~terry/per​l/talks/p6-junctions/index.html
18:45 luqui metaperl_: nice
18:45 metaperl_ thanks
18:45 metaperl_ :)
18:45 PerlJam slide7 seems to have some spurious code at the top
18:45 PerlJam (duped @pacific)
18:45 * metaperl_ checks
18:46 metaperl_ oh yeah, I'm going to comment out the second @pacific
18:46 metaperl_ and show how it works differently
18:46 metaperl_ I couldnt use a hash with array refs as values or I would've done it that way
18:47 * luqui & class
18:47 PerlJam seeing "$pass = =$IN" just makes my eyes hurt
18:47 PerlJam (and shouldn't it be $*IN anyway?)
18:47 metaperl_ how about $pass = $IN.next
18:47 metaperl_ the * is optional
18:47 luqui in the absence of another declaration of $IN, $IN and $*IN are the same
18:47 metaperl_ but you are right it should be there
18:47 * PerlJam is a fan of explicitness sometimes
18:48 luqui PerlJam: revel in the fact that $pass = =$IN isn't officially documented yet
18:48 PerlJam It would be cool in a sick sort of way if "$pass =$*IN" just worked  :-)
18:48 * luqui & class   # really
18:48 metaperl_ wont $IN.next work?
18:49 metaperl_ many people are not gong to adjust to all the changes in Perl 6. they are going to be upset
18:49 metaperl_ but they will have nowhere to run because Perl will still be the most convenient power tool out there
18:50 theorbtwo Nowhere to run?  They won't need to, just stay at perl5.
18:50 PerlJam or start using ruby
18:50 dada or (*cough* *cough*) piethon
18:51 theorbtwo But so long as TIMTOWTDI, they will hopefully find one that they like.
18:51 metaperl_ all it takes is looking at the usermanual of any other LAMP language for about 5 minutes for me to be grateful for Perl and comeback
18:51 PerlJam the more I look at "$x = =$*IN", the less convienent that shorthand seems.
18:51 PerlJam I'm glad it's not documented.
18:51 metaperl_ compare with $x = <STDIN>
18:51 ihb PerlJam: what does it do?
18:52 metaperl_ ihb, read a line from stdin
18:52 dada ihb: what metaperl_ said
18:52 PerlJam ihb: unary = is the "read a record" operator
18:52 ihb wow
18:52 metaperl_ no, it's the iteration thingy
18:52 Schwern I've been confused with Randal.
18:52 metaperl_ oh I guess that's the same thing
18:52 Schwern I don't know if I should be insulted or flattered.
18:52 theorbtwo I'd go with insulted, m'self.
18:52 metaperl_ Randal is a great person.
18:53 metaperl_ unless they think you were the one hacking into Intel
18:53 Schwern <Darren_Duncan>Also, about 1.5 years ago, a Linux cruise stopped by in Victoria and I briefly met ... Mike Schwern (name?) ... and I met Linux Torvalds
18:53 Schwern <Darren_Duncan>not mike schwern ...
18:53 Schwern <Darren_Duncan>Randal Schwartz I met
18:53 PerlJam heh
18:53 Schwern metaperl:  Or if you're within 50 meters of a Karoke club
18:53 metaperl_ i dont get that about karaoke.
18:54 PerlJam Schwern: flattered wouldn't be the right thing.
18:54 metaperl_ CGI::Prototype is awesome. Have you tried it?
18:54 Schwern Flattened?
18:54 metaperl_ I think it is what we needed for Perl/CGI long ago
18:54 Schwern metaperl:  Randal likes to sing Karaoke.
18:54 PerlJam Schwern: neither would insulted.  I'd just chalk it up to Darren_Duncan being really confused and/or drunk  ;)
18:54 metaperl_ oh, I didnt know that... I can't imagine Randal singing.. that is terrifying and horrifying
18:55 metaperl_ does he have a good voice?
18:57 PerlJam metaperl_: go on a geek cruise and find out!
18:58 metaperl_ Schwern and Randal to look very similar though if you ignore the difference in height and hair length
18:58 metaperl_ and body fat
18:58 PerlJam metaperl_: what?!?
18:58 metaperl_ lol
18:58 metaperl_ jusssssst kidding
18:58 PerlJam metaperl_: merlyn and Schwern look the same ... on IRC.  If they're using similar nicks.   And speak in short sentences.
18:59 ingy Schwern: you should change your nick to schwerlyn
18:59 PerlJam ingy: heh!
18:59 PerlJam Though that sounds like something that jock do to geeks in high school.
18:59 PerlJam "Hey man, let's go give that geek a schwerlyn!"
18:59 ingy haha
19:00 metaperl_ schwerlyn.... lol
19:00 metaperl_ and if every other sentence isn't "see my article on that subject"
19:00 Juerd_ Haha
19:01 Juerd_ metaperl_: Have you seen that PM writeup that is a merlyn-bot?
19:01 Juerd_ (Old)
19:01 metaperl_ no, I havent
19:01 PerlJam Juerd_: me either, where is it?
19:02 * PerlJam always downvotes merlyn's nodes if all they contain is "see my article on ..."
19:02 Juerd_ I'll try to find it
19:02 metaperl_ that's not cool: referring to those articles is a good thing
19:02 Juerd_ PerlJam: I don't. I read the article and vote as if the article was the post
19:02 metaperl_ they are well-written and cover the topic
19:02 PerlJam I can see tchrist's point that merlyn is all about self-aggrandizement
19:02 Juerd_ PerlJam: Usually down, because I don't like his programming style :)
19:03 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:03 Juerd_ PerlJam: I refer people to my own documents too
19:03 ihb PerlJam: "aggrandizement"?
19:03 Juerd_ It's to avoid having to write the same thing over and over
19:03 Juerd_ While still helping people
19:05 sorje has quit IRC ("leaving")
19:06 PerlJam Juerd_: sure.  Perhaps I've absorbed tchrist's (and other's) bias against merlyn always referring to his own work rather than the work of others
19:07 iblechbot_ has joined #perl6
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19:13 malaire data: do you still want to know how to coerce a `Maybe (Val, [VInt])' into a `Val'?
19:13 malaire err,, dada: do you still want to know how to coerce a `Maybe (Val, [VInt])' into a `Val'?
19:13 dada yes! yes!
19:14 malaire myCoerce (Just (val, _)) = val  -- seems to be working
19:14 dada mmm
19:14 malaire perlbot: nopaste
19:14 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
19:15 pasteling "malaire" at 217.119.39.217 pasted "coercing a value..." (3 lines, 133B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8048
19:15 pasteling "dada" at 193.203.230.22 pasted "Implementation of unary * from Eval.hs" (11 lines, 567B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8049
19:16 Juerd_ http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=437958
19:16 Juerd_ Sorry, got distracted
19:16 Juerd_ Posts like that one so terribly get on my nerves
19:16 dada malaire: how does that fit in my snippet?
19:16 * Juerd_ continues the search for the writeup he was looking for
19:16 malaire I'm checking that... (I'm still quite new on Haskell)
19:16 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:16 ihb the formatting on that paste page doesn't go well with haskell :-)
19:17 malaire where in that snippet do you need it?
19:17 dada malaire: at the end of line 374
19:17 dada doSlice [] vals 0 is returning that Maybe stuff
19:18 dada doSlice :: [Exp] -> [Val] -> [VInt] -> Maybe (Val, [VInt])
19:19 pasteling "malaire" at 217.119.39.217 pasted "coercing a value..." (3 lines, 100B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8050
19:19 dada looks fine
19:19 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
19:19 malaire does that case-code help? You need two cases - whether is has real value or 'Nothing'
19:19 Juerd_ metaperl, perljam: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=61933
19:20 metaperl_ LOL
19:20 metaperl_ I was going to do something similar with Template Toolkit syntax
19:21 metaperl_ [% INCLUDE std_disclaimer.h %]
19:21 dada ouch
19:21 dada src/Eval.hs:375: parse error on input `='
19:21 metaperl_ [% IF stonehenge.article_on(subject) %]
19:21 metaperl_ see my article
19:21 Juerd_ metaperl_: We know the syntax, really
19:21 metaperl_ [% ELSE %] [% INCLUDE snide_insult %]
19:22 malaire dada: sorry, that should be -> instead of =
19:24 dada malaire: right
19:27 Schwern has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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19:40 dada I'm having a damn hard time making GHC happy about my code
19:42 malaire can you paste it to http://sial.org/pbot/perl ?
19:42 dada sure
19:43 theorbtwo Stick a 6 on the end of that.
19:43 pasteling "dada" at 193.203.230.22 pasted "Eval.hs snippet" (12 lines, 604B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8051
19:43 dada theorbtwo: a 6?
19:44 theorbtwo http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
19:44 dada theorbtwo: ah, ok
19:45 dada now I get: Couldn't match `ContT Val (ReaderT Env IO) t' against `Val'
19:49 malaire I need to quit now... Can't really help there..
19:49 malaire has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
19:49 dada oh
19:49 dada I have no hope :-)
19:50 Juerd_ Sex is fun,
19:50 Juerd_ but it probably doesn't solve all your problems.
19:50 Juerd_ -- lwall
19:50 Juerd_ Latest quote :)
19:50 Odin- ... uh.
19:50 Odin- Okay. That doesn't even need context. :)
19:51 Juerd_ Do you mean that sex needs no context?
19:51 Juerd_ 'cause I disagree :)
20:02 Odin- Juerd_: The quote. I wouldn't have a clue on the other matter. :p
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20:38 Juerd_ Hello Limbic_Region :)
20:39 LTjake pugs ascii logo: http://www.inkdroid.org:8888/391 -- warning, i've already been told it sucks =)
20:40 LTjake hooray for "art".
20:42 * Limbic_Region suspects he has been caught reading slides
20:42 Limbic_Region salutations Juerd_
20:44 Juerd_ Limbic_Region: slides?
20:44 Juerd_ Limbic_Region: I said hi because of your remark in the PM CB
20:45 Juerd_ LTjake: It does
20:45 jdv79 Juerd_, where's the next version of PLP
20:47 Juerd_ jdv79: I won't be working on PLP until my RSI is mostly gone, which can take years.
20:48 Juerd_ I have better ways to spend the little time I have
20:48 Juerd_ The next version of PLP will either have user contributed changes or a complete rewrite.
20:48 Juerd_ Patches are welcome, especially a (backwards compatible!!) patch to make it work with apache 2
20:48 theorbtwo Use one of your daughter's odd input devices?
20:49 ihb Juerd_: i don't remember, what was PLP about? Or: why did you create it?
20:49 theorbtwo ...or would that just cause you to get RSIs in other parts of your body?
20:49 jdv79 RSI?
20:50 Limbic_Region oh - which comment - I am kind of all over the place ATM Juerd
20:50 theorbtwo Repetitive Stress Injury.
20:50 jdv79 PLP is like PHP
20:51 Juerd_ Limbic_Region: About you going to catch up on #perl6 :)
20:51 Limbic_Region oh - well, I found lots of links here that I was following
20:52 Juerd_ ihb: I created it because I needed something template-language-like (PHP-like, if you want) that was both very fast and very easy to use (no weird compilation with subs causing all kinds of problems with lexicals and other subs)
20:52 Juerd_ s/to use/to start using/
20:53 ihb Juerd_: which other templates-language-like things existed at invention-time?
20:53 Juerd_ ihb: embperl, mason, eperl, iperl, s///e
20:54 ihb Juerd_: in which way/under which circumstances is PLP preferable?
20:54 Juerd_ The first incarnation of PLP just used s/<:(.*?):>/'; $1; print '/g; eval "print '$_'", only escaping some more than this :)
20:54 Juerd_ ihb: I have no idea.
20:54 Juerd_ ihb: I use it for sites I build
20:54 ihb Juerd_: :-)
20:55 Juerd_ ihb: It's in use by the dutch ISP "Internet Online" for their administration of rackspace, switches, routers, servers and bandwidth
20:55 Juerd_ But that's just because a good friend works there and wrote this system
20:55 Juerd_ I will maintain PLP, because it's used in many important production environments
20:56 Juerd_ But don't expect too much
20:56 Juerd_ If you're writing something big, use Template or Mason or Embperl
20:56 Juerd_ If you need the speed, PLP's great, though.
20:56 theorbtwo Juerd, consider finding somebody else to pawn it off on^W^W^W^Wmaintain it.
20:56 Juerd_ Cheap computers have become much faster since PLP was made though
20:56 Juerd_ theorbtwo: I don't like that.
20:57 ihb Juerd: thing is i don't write big things, which is why i'm interested in other solutions.
20:57 Juerd_ I want to be in control, because everyone who has some opinion about PLP wants to introduce backwards incompatible changes, and someone without an opinion is by definition a bad maintainer.
20:58 theorbtwo Mm, point.
20:59 theorbtwo If they can find a way to make backwards-compatable changes, then that'd be good.
20:59 theorbtwo But loosing back-incompat is a big -- unless you cleanly fork.
20:59 Juerd_ They can't because PLP needs big changes
21:00 ihb Juerd_: would you disrecommend someone starting fresh from using PLP?
21:00 Juerd_ ihb: Only if you want mod_perl 2 support or PLP to do something it currently does not.
21:00 Juerd_ Feature requests are left unanswered for the time being.
21:00 Juerd_ I use PLP all the time
21:00 Juerd_ So how could I recommend against using it?
21:01 Juerd_ It's PHP-ish in many ways though
21:01 Juerd_ And that requires some tolerance for ugliness
21:01 Juerd_ And impurity
21:01 Juerd_ OTOH, it does use perl and it is fast.
21:01 Juerd_ Which are important for me.
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21:48 dada I go, goodnight
21:48 dada has quit IRC ("kein bestandteil zu sein")
21:52 mugwump hmm, can't commit to svn.openfoundry.org even after completing registration ... will try again later
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22:03 obra :/
22:03 Steve_p autrijus, are you using the ErrorMonad to implement try...catch?
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22:35 buu is now known as perldoc
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22:44 obra schwern?
22:45 iblechbot_ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
23:07 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
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23:11 Coke_ what abuot schwern?
23:13 obra was looking for him
23:15 Coke_ I miss purl.
23:16 theorbtwo perlbot, tell Coke_ about the meaning of life.
23:16 perlbot the meaning of life isn't something I know about, theorbtwo
23:17 * theorbtwo goes to bed.
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23:57 metaperl_ is Sam Vilain here?
23:58 obra 18:57 -!-  idle     : 0 days 2 hours 5 mins 48 secs [signon: Mon Mar  7

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