Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Goplat has joined #perl6
00:01 pjcj that'll be mugwump
00:05 metaperl_ i was just feeding back about that mind-bending sendmoremoney he sent me
00:06 obra what was mind-beinding about it?
00:06 obra bending
00:07 metaperl_ the huge query if nothing else
00:11 * mugwump is in the house
00:13 mugwump The query is fairly straightforward IMHO.  What's mind-bending is how MySQL manages to solve it in 80ms
00:15 mugwump still can't commit it, though :(
00:16 mugwump it's filtering a 10^8*2^4 (1.6B) size solution set in this time
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01:42 theorbtwo Any subethaeditors around?
01:45 lumi Er, me
01:45 theorbtwo I think I've been blacklisted by codingmonkeys.de
01:45 theorbtwo Er, read, by the public test server.
01:46 lumi Oh?
01:46 lumi I have nil idea
01:46 lumi how any of it works
01:47 theorbtwo I'm trying to write a perl script that's interoperable with their protocol; they may have gotten annoyed at me sending them data their program doesn't like.
01:47 lumi Why were you connecting to them?
01:47 lumi You can start your own server, no?
01:47 theorbtwo Yeah, I kind of just realized that.
01:48 lumi I can't open a listening port, but are you connectable?
01:48 lumi What's their public server btw?
01:49 theorbtwo I can be quickly enough, but I can just have my script connect to the pearpc instance.
01:49 lumi Okay, fair enuff :P
01:49 theorbtwo codingmonkeys.de
01:50 lumi Not working for me either, so it might not be personal
01:50 lumi "omg you killed codingmonkeys" etc
01:51 theorbtwo Oh.
01:51 theorbtwo Not a very good demonstration for them, then...
01:51 lumi What's the script for?
01:52 theorbtwo Fodder for a protocol doc, so people who actually know lisp can implement it for emacs.
01:52 lumi Hmmmm
01:52 theorbtwo I don't actually own a mac.
01:52 theorbtwo And I'd prefer to keep it that way.
01:52 theorbtwo But reap the benifits of having one any way.  ;)
01:53 lumi You were attacked by wild Macs when you were but a child?
01:53 lumi You don't like cocoa?
01:53 theorbtwo No, they were very orderly macs.
01:53 lumi Ahh
01:53 lumi Next time don't stack them on the top shelf
01:54 * theorbtwo blames his high school.
01:54 lumi Would your efforts help make an emacs see server as well?
01:55 lumi Or just a client?
01:55 theorbtwo Both, eventually.
01:55 theorbtwo Client first, probably.
01:55 lumi I can't express how cool that would be
01:56 theorbtwo SEE seems to be very picky.
01:56 lumi They're basing it on some published protocol, aren't they?
01:56 theorbtwo On BEEP, which is a pair of RFCs.
01:56 theorbtwo But I'm betting it's not to closely based on it, and BEEP is a very loose framework to begin with.
01:56 lumi Does it crash on bad input? (Would explain where condingmonkeys.de went)
01:59 theorbtwo Not sure.  Would explain it.
01:59 theorbtwo But feeding my local copy the exact same intput doesn't seem to make it die.
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02:02 lumi Anyway, I'm calling it a night..
02:02 lumi Godspeed on your quest!
02:02 theorbtwo Thanks.
02:02 theorbtwo But I seriously doubt it.
02:03 lumi Nevertheless
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02:27 ingy theorbtwo: what is your quest?
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02:41 stevan ingy: how would I do a nested list in kwid?
02:41 stevan - one list
02:41 stevan -- nested list
02:42 stevan is that right?
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02:48 hcchien stevan++   # new pugs banner
02:48 stevan hcchien: thanks
02:48 ingy stevan: that is one way
02:49 ingy '-' lists are "definition lists"
02:49 stevan ok
02:49 ingy of the form:
02:49 stevan so is '--' nested def lists?
02:49 ingy - term
02:49 ingy definition
02:49 ingy - other term
02:50 ingy other defintion
02:51 ingy when definition gets to be more than one parapgraph, you'll need `.list`
02:51 stevan ok
02:51 ingy basically it should dwym
02:51 ingy I'll make it so
02:52 ingy I think I am going to go a little more towards pod's way of using blank lines to end blocks
02:53 ingy so:
02:53 ingy == this
02:53 ingy header
02:53 ingy is the same as
02:53 ingy == this header
02:53 ingy but...
02:53 ingy == this header
02:54 ingy * does not consume this bullet
02:54 stevan how would it handle this
02:54 stevan = bullets * are cool
02:55 ingy same as
02:55 ingy = bullets \* are cool
02:55 stevan ok
02:55 stevan so how far away from a parser are you?
02:56 ingy bullets are /^\*+ /
02:56 ingy well, I would like to say the kwid tools will be working by April 5th
02:57 ingy because that is the end of my stay in Taiwan
02:57 ingy where I plan to work on it
02:57 mugwump when do you arrive in Taiwan. ingy?
02:57 ingy let me check
02:58 stevan so is buu working on it with you?
02:58 ingy no
02:58 stevan and you are writing it in Haskell right?
02:58 ingy he was working on a perl5 parser
02:59 ingy and I am writing it all in Haskell yes
02:59 ingy I also plan on making pugs be able to `require` Haskell modules
02:59 stevan yes I have heard about that
03:00 ingy so Kwid.hs will also act as Kwid.pm
03:00 stevan Pugs XS :)
03:00 ingy right
03:01 stevan hmmm, so is buu still writing his perl 5 parser?
03:01 ingy I don't know. I really don't know anything about the state of his work
03:01 metaperl has joined #perl6
03:01 ingy since it isn't done in the open afaik
03:02 ingy I will do all my Kwid stuff in the open
03:02 ingy so you can hack on it too
03:02 ingy it only makes sense to do it that way
03:02 stevan I agree
03:03 stevan however, my Haskell skills are non-existant, and I doubt I will have time to learn it
03:03 stevan I may just hack a quick perl5 version so I can process the docs I am writing
03:05 metaperl hi guys, I am doing my Perl 6 Junctions presentation now
03:05 metaperl this is live from Thousand Oaks, CA
03:06 stevan Helllloooooo Thousand Oaks!!!!
03:06 stevan Are you ready to Rock and Roll!!!!!!
03:06 metaperl yes! we are!
03:06 stevan LOL
03:06 stevan ingy: where is your kwid spec doc? I am not finding it
03:07 ingy stevan: doc/
03:07 ingy go metaperl!!
03:07 metaperl here's my presentation : http://www.hcoop.net/~terry/perl/talks/p6-junctions/index.html
03:07 metaperl ingy++ :)
03:07 stevan danke
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03:08 ingy stevan: a quick hack kwid2pod would be easy and useful
03:09 stevan ingy: ok, I was thinking kwid2html, but kwid2pod2html would work too
03:09 ingy mugwump: I arrive in Taiwan on March 22nd at 7:18am
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03:10 ingy mugwump: or 7:50am, I really can't tell
03:11 jdv79 do python or ruby have junctions?
03:12 ingy not afaik
03:13 stevan ingy: what was all that talk I heard about kwid bytecode?
03:13 ingy http://rubyforge.org/projects/junction/
03:14 ingy stevan: bytecode is mostly for testing
03:14 stevan ingy: any docs on that?
03:14 ingy it is a compact serialization of a kwid (or pod) parse tree
03:14 ingy I think so...
03:15 stevan oh I see it
03:15 ingy ext/Kwid/t/README
03:15 safrican haha
03:15 safrican i thought that was  regex
03:15 safrican and i was like - what the heck ?
03:15 ingy =)
03:16 ingy it's the new pugs regex style I just wrote
03:16 Schwern has joined #perl6
03:16 safrican haha
03:17 ingy hi Schwern, we were just laughing at you
03:17 ingy hahahaha
03:17 ingy haha
03:17 ingy ha
03:17 safrican hehe
03:17 ingy ok... done
03:17 safrican :)
03:18 Schwern Am I some sort of clown to you?
03:18 ingy no, I just think you're funny, you know...
03:18 Schwern Do I have funny hair, wear silly clothes and say stupid things for your amusement?
03:18 stevan kick his a** Schwern
03:18 stevan ingy you can take em
03:18 ingy stevan: I already did take him
03:18 jdv79 stevan "the provoker"
03:18 ingy for a whole year
03:18 Schwern It was magical.
03:19 stevan IRC FIGHT!!!!!
03:19 Schwern GET OUT THE CREAMED CORN
03:19 safrican go .*? !!
03:19 Schwern Anyhow, I HAVE A BUG TO REPORT
03:19 Schwern enough of this jocularity
03:19 ingy stevan: does the bytecode make sense?
03:20 stevan ingy: actually it does :P
03:20 stevan more than kwid does at the momemnt
03:20 stevan I think I will start with a kwid bytecode generator
03:20 Schwern Installing /System/Library/Perl6/Kwid.pm
03:20 Schwern Installing /System/Library/Perl6/Test.pm
03:20 Schwern Installing /usr/bin/kwid
03:20 Schwern kwid is not core, it shouldn't be installing there.
03:20 ingy it *is* core
03:21 Schwern Is it in Perl5?
03:21 ingy no
03:21 Schwern Then its not core.
03:21 ingy what?
03:21 Schwern Core in the sense of you're installing it in the wrong place.
03:21 Schwern For a library
03:22 mugwump But core in the sense that you don't have to include it to use it?
03:22 ingy Kwiki installs `kwiki` in the same place
03:22 Schwern installprivlib vs installsitelib
03:22 ingy wait...
03:22 Schwern It should go into (in my case) /Library/Perl/...
03:22 ingy the lib or the bin
03:22 Schwern Both, though in most cases core and site are the same for bin.
03:22 Schwern As here.
03:23 Schwern I think Pugs::MakeMaker is using the wrong config variables.
03:24 ingy Schwern: Kwid is intended to be a core module as we are writing all the docs in it
03:24 ingy Schwern: I doubt it
03:24 Schwern Core in the Perl5 sense.  Not the Pugs sense.
03:24 Schwern Oh, wait.
03:24 Schwern I'm an idiot.
03:24 ingy ok, I can believe that
03:24 Schwern Didn't see it was going into Perl6/
03:24 ingy :)
03:24 Schwern Carry on.
03:25 ingy Schwern: I remember from some deep dive into make utils code, that all lib paths match /perl/i
03:25 ingy is that true
03:26 ingy or can you embellish
03:26 Schwern All lib paths?
03:26 ingy well..
03:26 ingy privlib and sitelib
03:27 ingy and thus archlib and sitearch
03:27 Schwern There's nothing stopping someone from making privlib /placenta/juan if they really want to
03:27 Schwern So no
03:28 ingy but i think Configure adds a 'perl' component to the path unless /perl/i
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03:28 Schwern I'd really doubt it would force such a thing.
03:28 ingy I've seen this code
03:28 Schwern It might suggest it as the default.
03:28 ingy well right
03:29 ingy if you give a prefix that already /perl/i then it doesn't add a perl dir
03:29 ingy that much is true
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03:30 ingy basically what I am saying is that I heuristically make up the Perl6 libs from Perl5 ones
03:30 Schwern Let's find out
03:30 ingy so i may need to adjust those heuristics
03:31 Schwern Pathname where the private library files will reside? (~name ok)
03:31 Schwern [/ham/wild/lib/perl5/5.8.6]
03:32 Schwern Pathname where the private library files will reside? (~name ok)
03:32 Schwern [/usr/local/perl/lib/5.8.6]
03:32 Schwern The first is the prefix /ham/wild the second is /usr/local/perl
03:32 Schwern But beware, its common that this gets overridden.  Debian for example.
03:33 ingy ok, well I'll at least add a die, and see if/when my scheme doesn't work
03:42 ingy Schwern: see r566
03:44 nnunley has joined #perl6
03:44 nnunley Ugh.  Still setting up my new laptop.
03:45 mugwump nnunley, did you make sendmoremoney.p6?
03:45 nnunley mugwump: Yeap.  I'm to blame.
03:45 * nnunley grins.
03:45 nnunley Looking forward to your fixes.
03:46 nnunley I mostly did it to see if I could prod someone into better defining how autothreading would work.
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03:47 mugwump However you wouldn't want that script to end up making 1.6b threads that test a few conditions then finish
03:47 nnunley Not at all.
03:48 nnunley I have some stuff lurking in my drive to narrow the permutations down, but I assume you've done the same.
03:49 mugwump First, the primary optimisation with that problem happens by treating each part of the expression as its own, not as a combined product.  Otherwise it can only really be solved by exhaustive search
03:50 * nnunley nods.
03:50 mugwump eg, breaking it down into D+E % 10 = Y, (floor((D+E)/10)+N+R)%10=E, etc
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03:51 mugwump I think that's far too difficult an optimisation for anything to make apart from a massive quantum supercomputer, like the ones we lug around in our heads
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03:52 mugwump Then it becomes simple enough that if you pass it into something highly optimised at finding combinations of values that meet certain conditions, like a SQL query processor, it can be solved in very few iterations
03:52 * nnunley nods.
03:52 mugwump eg, MySQL did it in <80ms on my PC
03:54 alexe has left
03:54 nnunley So your solution uses something like continuations to backtrack?  Or did you continue to use the junctions metaphor?
03:54 nnunley That is, in perl6?
03:55 mugwump Yes - it's a simple optimisation of your script, so that if we have correctly identified a key characteristic of junctions then we have something achievable to work towards
03:56 mugwump ie, it should be able to eliminate inconsistent solutions quickly
03:57 mugwump I wish my commit would work :(
03:57 mugwump oh, wait, I suppose I need to commit to darcs don't I?
03:57 mugwump not http://svn.openfoundry.org:80
03:57 nnunley darcs apply, no?  And then darcs send?
03:58 ingy stevan: ping
03:58 mugwump ah.  I've been using svk
03:58 nnunley Or svk push
03:59 nnunley I'm still a newbie with svk.  I've been using svn directly to make my commits.
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04:09 nnunley wee.  3 days until I arrive in London
04:12 ingy nnunley: yow!
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04:12 nnunley ingy, yeap.
04:12 codesnik has joined #perl6
04:13 nnunley i'm in high panic mode right now, trying to get my data backed up to my new laptop so i don't have to carry yet another harddrive with me.
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04:17 nnunley so what's new with you, ingy/
04:17 safrican_ is now known as safrican
04:17 ingy nnunley: working on 50 things at once as usual
04:18 nnunley ingy, always a good state to be in if you can sustain it.
04:18 metaperl has joined #perl6
04:21 nnunley ingy, how's your learning process with haskell/
04:22 ingy nnunley: slow, I keep skipping around trying to find a tutorial i can grok
04:23 ingy where grok = get it all at once without being too long
04:23 ingy I'm a slow reader and I like dense material
04:23 ingy usually
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04:24 nnunley Hrm.  Have you looked at the translation of the perl cookbook to haskell/
04:25 crysflame .
04:25 ingy nnunley: I was told not to look at that
04:25 ingy PLEAC?
04:25 * nnunley nods.
04:26 crysflame people tell me not to give you ideas, ingy
04:26 nnunley it doesn't seem like the greatest starting point.  on the other hand, it is a cognative mapping from perl to haskell.
04:26 ingy I'm reading the Two Dozen one right now
04:26 ingy crysflame: is that right!?!
04:26 crysflame yeah, they're all #perl and usually half kidding
04:26 crysflame i seed evil ideas, you implement evil ideas
04:26 ingy true
04:26 * crysflame grins
04:26 crysflame hasn't stopped me yet
04:26 * bd_ learned haskell by skimming the gentle intro and then writing an unlambda interpreter. Painful, but effective.
04:27 nnunley is that online
04:27 obra has joined #perl6
04:27 ingy nnunley: http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/index.html
04:28 * nnunley gets very annoyed with x11vnc
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04:28 ingy the Two Dozen Lessons thing is not very good
04:28 ingy Gentle looks good
04:28 hoowa morning!
04:28 nnunley my recommendation is the Haskell school of expressions...
04:29 nnunley But there are stronger books out there.
04:29 nnunley "learn haskell in 10e days"
04:30 mugwump 10e?  28.18 days?
04:31 * nnunley nods.
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04:34 stevan ingy: you around?
04:39 nnunley stevan: He was a few moments ago.
04:40 ingy stevan: yes
04:41 stevan ingy: is this
04:41 stevan == header2
04:41 stevan and this:
04:41 stevan ==               heaad2
04:41 stevan equivalent?
04:41 ingy yes, they would prduce the same bytecode
04:41 stevan in other words, should I ignore whitespace after the '==', but before a string
04:41 mugwump hmm, `svk push' doesn't work, either
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04:41 stevan ingy: cool, thats what I thought
04:42 ingy ==header2 is just plain text though
04:42 stevan ok
04:43 ingy that way ==foo== could be used in the future
04:43 stevan ok
04:43 ingy that's why:
04:43 ingy *this is bold and not a bullet*
04:44 ingy * this is a bullet with *bold words*
04:44 buu Oh god
04:44 * buu runs away
04:44 stevan LOL
04:45 buu stevan: Attempting to write a parser?
04:45 stevan buu: yes
04:45 stevan did you get far on yours?
04:45 buu Yeah I'm about 95% done
04:45 stevan ahh
04:45 ingy this is a line with asterisks and * no bolding *
04:45 stevan buu: can I see it?
04:45 buu yeah..
04:46 buu Winning starcraft game atm
04:46 stevan :)
04:46 buu I have an older version at erxz.com/pugdoc.zip or something
04:47 buu I just need to expand ** parsing to work for // and ``
04:48 stevan buu: that version looks to be just a tokenizer/lexer
04:49 buu Er, what did you want?
04:49 stevan buu: an AST :)
04:49 buu Ah.. no
04:49 stevan kwid bytecode man!
04:49 buu You could generate the bytecode trivially
04:51 mugwump http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/2015  # what am I doing wrong?  :(
04:54 hoowa hihi
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05:11 autrijus greetings.
05:11 autrijus stevan's banner is now in trunk.
05:11 autrijus I need to run for $work :)
05:11 autrijus so, see you in a bit.
05:11 autrijus stevan++ # nice nice banner
05:12 mugwump hey autrijus, I'm getting an authorisation error trying to commit via svk
05:13 autrijus did you register?
05:13 autrijus the openfoundry account that is
05:14 autrijus there's no record of it
05:14 autrijus did you click on the url in the invitation mail?
05:14 mugwump I'm logged into it now.
05:15 autrijus your userid?
05:15 autrijus mugwump?
05:15 mugwump yes
05:15 autrijus ok, you're a committer now.
05:15 autrijus have fun
05:15 mugwump thanks
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05:15 autrijus 26th :)
05:20 mugwump the 26th committer?
05:20 hcchien I guess so. :)
05:21 mugwump better than being use.perl.org member #1871 or slashdotter #30,000 I suppose :)
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05:35 crysflame leisuretown is back :) never seen it before
05:35 crysflame very, very.. interesting
05:35 crysflame er
05:35 crysflame hi #perl6
05:35 crysflame at least i have different nickname here
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06:16 Darren_Duncan I noticed that there is a mixture of Perl 5 and Perl 6 modules in the /ext directory -- Test and Kwid are Perl 6, MakeMaker is Perl 5 -- should these be in separate dirs since they are different languages?
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06:45 ingy Darren_Duncan: no
06:45 Darren_Duncan I hear you
06:45 ingy ext contains core things that must be installed for pugs to work correctly
06:46 ingy for now that includes some perl5 stuff
06:46 Darren_Duncan okay - I thought it might be reasonable to clearly deliniate what runs inside Pugs and what runs outside Pugs
06:46 Darren_Duncan had thought
06:46 ingy eventually Pugs::MakeMaker (or something else will be redone in perl6)
06:47 buu has quit IRC ("leaving")
06:47 ingy eventually Pugs::MakeMaker (or something else) will be redone in perl6
06:47 Darren_Duncan fyi, I'm about to do a checking, in a few minutes
06:47 Darren_Duncan check-in
06:48 Darren_Duncan quick question; what is the Perl 6 equivalent of "use lib 'foo'"?
06:48 ingy maybe unshift @*INC, 'foo'
06:49 Darren_Duncan that sounds like what "use lib" was supposed to replace
06:49 ingy we don't have `use` yet
06:50 ingy autrijus: for your journal you can report that "Ingy finally slept" ;)
06:50 ingy zzzzzzzzzz&
06:50 Darren_Duncan basically, I'm about to check in my test suite ... the main test uses several modules, which are in a subdirectory of t/ called lib/ ; I wanted to include that in the path that Perl 6 code sees
06:51 Darren_Duncan in Perl 5 I have "use lib 't/lib' at the start of my .t file
06:51 Darren_Duncan and it works great
06:51 Darren_Duncan lacking a better answer, I'll unshift for now
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07:22 autrijus heh.
07:22 autrijus ingy: thanks so much for your work :-)
07:22 * autrijus starts backlogging
07:26 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
07:26 nothingmuch morning
07:26 iblechbot has joined #perl6
07:30 autrijus greetings nothingmuch-san
07:30 * autrijus still @ work
07:31 * nothingmuch just got there
07:31 nothingmuch crap, i closed mut
07:31 * nothingmuch waits now
07:35 nnunley mugwump:  BTW,  the send+more=money solution should be at least as readable as http://www.mozart-oz.org/documentation/fdt/node15.html
07:35 nnunley mugwump: The trick is finding the perl6 idiom that expresses things as nicely.
07:36 nnunley Or forcing p6l to create it. :)
07:36 nnunley Blah.  Must sleep.
07:38 autrijus have fun :)
07:39 autrijus (in your dream, that is)
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07:55 Darren_Duncan I just emailed a status report to p6c
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07:55 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
07:55 Darren_Duncan the short of it is, more LKT updates, and the full test suite is ported
07:56 Darren_Duncan at this point I have nothing more to do with that except respond to feedback people make, such as which bits aren't proper Perl 6
07:56 autrijus woot. time to move on to other modules? :)
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07:56 Darren_Duncan In a couple weeks I'll port SQL::Routine, whose code size is a full 25X larger
07:57 nothingmuch http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/050309/keefe.gif
07:57 Darren_Duncan although a full 1/3 of that is a data dictionary definition (multi-dimensional hash declaration) and won't really require any changes
07:58 Darren_Duncan with that module, it may be easier to see what its unique qualities are
08:00 Darren_Duncan something I did today with all my Perl 5 modules is based on a stated preference Larry Wall made on p6l, which is replace several thousand "return( ... );" with "return ...;"
08:01 Darren_Duncan the multi-file regexp search and replace in my BBEdit text editor came in handy
08:01 * nothingmuch would like a -r flag to perl -pie
08:02 Darren_Duncan In the intervening few weeks, I'm going to focus more on updating my Perl 5 code, although I'll stick my head in here now and then ...
08:02 autrijus that's cool :)
08:03 Darren_Duncan I may start the SRT port in as little as a week ... it has a lot to do with its stability, how much I want to re-do later as the original changes
08:03 Darren_Duncan if you're on any of the database-related lists, expect an announcement soon
08:04 Darren_Duncan still, some Perl 6 features I learned about , I will be able to use in the SRT port, where I couldn't in the LKT port
08:04 Darren_Duncan 'Roles' for one thing
08:05 nothingmuch appearantly i've always dreamt of rollaxes
08:05 nothingmuch email is so informative
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08:05 nothingmuch damnit, why isn't SA getting this stuff?
08:05 Darren_Duncan what is SA?
08:06 nothingmuch spamassassin
08:07 Darren_Duncan ok
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08:13 nothingmuch ook!
08:14 nothingmuch what a horrible day
08:16 _foo_ has joined #perl6
08:26 decay_ is now known as decay
08:27 Darren_Duncan is it now?
08:27 nothingmuch my day?
08:28 Darren_Duncan I suppose
08:29 nothingmuch uh
08:29 decay wonder how long it will take to compile ghc on irix :)
08:29 nothingmuch what did you mean then?
08:29 Darren_Duncan how was your day?
08:32 nothingmuch my day has just started
08:32 nothingmuch it started bad
08:32 nothingmuch because i used to be sysop
08:33 nothingmuch and people are still asking for favours when problems are hard to fix
08:33 nothingmuch brb
08:33 nothingmuch here we go again
08:33 Darren_Duncan that's unfortunate
08:33 Darren_Duncan too bad they can't ask the person whose job it is to fix their problems
08:37 nothingmuch well
08:37 nothingmuch that person is wresteling with an urgent problem
08:37 nothingmuch some raid died
08:37 nothingmuch and anyway these questions are more of the 'wtf is going on?!' type
08:37 nothingmuch and his subordinate is sick
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08:38 nothingmuch or 'how do i do xyz?'
08:38 nothingmuch not so much 'can you reinstall blah'
08:38 Darren_Duncan I understand
08:38 nothingmuch which i'm notoriously quick at
08:38 nothingmuch but then again, i haven't done more than ten minutes of real work in the hour and a half that i'm hear
08:38 Darren_Duncan people ask me for help too, though it never was my job
08:39 Darren_Duncan do you get paid for the time spent helping the other people?
08:39 nothingmuch i am the local goat
08:39 Darren_Duncan by your employer
08:39 nothingmuch officially i'm the integrator
08:39 nothingmuch i have a base salary
08:39 nothingmuch and an overtime one, that i always get
08:39 nothingmuch and people know i just work
08:39 nothingmuch so that's not the issue
08:39 nothingmuch i do what others don't
08:40 Darren_Duncan you just don't like doing tech support?
08:40 nothingmuch for example, if a test is running annoyingly slow, because a tool the dev team made is bad
08:40 nothingmuch most testers will work around
08:40 nothingmuch i'll fix the tool
08:40 nothingmuch and that's ok, because it's part of my job
08:40 Darren_Duncan that's a good quality
08:40 nothingmuch no, i don't mind
08:40 nothingmuch it's just that now i'm having trouble running coverage
08:40 Darren_Duncan you're being efficient, and your fixing the tool helps others that use it
08:41 nothingmuch which is difficult since these are systems tests, and sometimes they test memory usage, and gcov ruins that
08:41 nothingmuch so i need to baby sit it
08:41 nothingmuch and now there's crap flying everywhere
08:41 nothingmuch and i keep getting distracted
08:41 nothingmuch well, argueably i'm not in the short term
08:41 nothingmuch that particular example was very good stuff
08:41 Darren_Duncan I wish you well
08:41 nothingmuch a shell script test thing was writing to a file
08:41 nothingmuch and running a cmd on the file
08:41 nothingmuch and sometimes NFS async was not 100% reliable
08:42 nothingmuch so the tool had to be made to accept pipes
08:42 nothingmuch the workaround was write to file, sleep 2, run tool
08:42 Darren_Duncan I've heard that NFS shouldn't be counted on for anything important
08:42 nothingmuch a test with 500 such calls... =)
08:42 nothingmuch it can't =)
08:42 Darren_Duncan or network filesystems in general
08:42 Darren_Duncan something about not proper locking support
08:42 nothingmuch in theory this can be fixed
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08:42 nothingmuch synchronization is even worse, though
08:43 Darren_Duncan so I've heard on the SQLite ml, where they say not to use the db over a networked filesystem
08:43 nothingmuch yeah, that's often an issue
08:43 nothingmuch we have the source files comming off NFS
08:43 nothingmuch and in theory scratch dirs are on local raids
08:43 nothingmuch but sometimes the scripts write to the user's home dir
08:44 nothingmuch this is hard to pin point
08:44 nothingmuch since it's been cargo culted a lot
08:44 nothingmuch so what do you do for a living?
08:44 Darren_Duncan I write my own programs, currently
08:44 Darren_Duncan between 2001 and 2003 ...
08:45 Darren_Duncan I worked for a local business that made database-driven applications
08:45 Darren_Duncan http://www.amavi.com/
08:45 Darren_Duncan They were a good group, and I'm still on friendly terms
08:45 nothingmuch so you're a contracted freelancer?
08:46 Darren_Duncan however, I had this strong urge to make my own stuff, so I mutually agreed to be laid off ...
08:46 Darren_Duncan when there was a drop in the amount of work to do ...
08:46 nothingmuch ah
08:46 Darren_Duncan since then, I'm working my way towards starting my own business ...
08:46 nothingmuch so basically you wanted to move on, and given a good time to do so, you just did?
08:46 Darren_Duncan making my own new programs for the mass market ...
08:47 Darren_Duncan pretty much
08:47 * nothingmuch is saving up for academia
08:47 Darren_Duncan they were going to lay some people off anyway, and I made it easy for them, since I wanted time off to do my own thing anyway
08:47 nothingmuch with no real experience or formal education wage is not very high
08:47 nothingmuch but should increase
08:47 Darren_Duncan I completed post secondary education prior to joining that employer
08:47 Darren_Duncan and I learned a lot there that helps me now
08:48 Darren_Duncan fyi, the drop of work was due to the then-current project being nearly completed, with just minor updates left, and they weren't challenging for me.
08:48 nothingmuch i want to learn, but not compsci
08:48 nothingmuch math and ling, and if i have enough money cinema too
08:48 nothingmuch studying music now
08:49 * nothingmuch will not see this kind of stuff at current workplace
08:49 Darren_Duncan just recently things seem to be picking up there again, so I may go back there soon as a contractor, part time spent there and part time on my own thing
08:49 nothingmuch well, i hope that works well
08:49 nothingmuch contract jobs generally pay well when done part time
08:49 Darren_Duncan that way I'll get some money, which I'm not getting currently on my own thing
08:50 Darren_Duncan since my current project is heavily componentized, I may be able to apply parts of it at my contract jobs, such as the old employer, though I'm not assuming that will work
08:50 nothingmuch that's generally a good plan
08:50 Darren_Duncan my own personal project, for the mass market, is a database-driven app, being prototyped in Perl
08:51 _foo_ has left
08:51 Darren_Duncan it is a system for managing data in an accurate and long-term adaptable fashion
08:51 Darren_Duncan one of the first target uses is in genealogy
08:51 Darren_Duncan and general research
08:51 Darren_Duncan and education or law
08:51 nothingmuch basically a maypole type thing, except more complete?
08:51 Darren_Duncan and in creative writing, for tracking continuity in a story
08:51 nothingmuch you take this thing, and use it to develop a custom app for a client?
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08:52 Darren_Duncan I'm not that knowledgeable about maypole, but I think my total package is higher end
08:52 Darren_Duncan The idea is to sell copies to typical consumers, who can use it without any further help
08:52 Darren_Duncan I plan for it to become ubiquitous like MS Office
08:52 Darren_Duncan but less expensive, more reliable, and more portable
08:53 nothingmuch web based?
08:53 nothingmuch or really a gui?
08:53 Darren_Duncan ubiquitous meaning useful for a wide variety of things, anyone can use it
08:53 Darren_Duncan both web and gui
08:53 Darren_Duncan The user interface is a separate module
08:53 Darren_Duncan the first implementation will be web
08:53 Darren_Duncan a gui will come later
08:53 nothingmuch how do you plan to manage the admin overhead of DB backing and yet still keep it easy to use?
08:53 nothingmuch embedded DB?
08:54 Darren_Duncan one use of this is to drive information web sites
08:54 Darren_Duncan like imdb.com or wikipedia.org
08:54 Darren_Duncan the database back end is also a component
08:54 Darren_Duncan people can use whatever database they want
08:54 nothingmuch so it's a CMS, on steroids?
08:54 Darren_Duncan if they don't want to choose, SQLite 3 will be used by default
08:54 Darren_Duncan a SQLite solution is very consumer friendly ...
08:55 Darren_Duncan all the data is in a single file, like a word processing document
08:55 nothingmuch it is
08:55 Darren_Duncan and they can have multiple files, stored anywhere
08:55 Darren_Duncan power users can use Oracle or Postgres or something
08:55 Darren_Duncan the system is multi-user to the core
08:55 Darren_Duncan but typical users don't have to know that
08:56 nothingmuch Rosetta is used for DBI schema/lang management?
08:56 Darren_Duncan it would just work ... as easily as a typical genealogy app on a pc
08:56 * nothingmuch has a pet project, used at work
08:56 nothingmuch soon released (maybe)
08:56 Darren_Duncan my CPAN modules like Rosetta and SQL::Routine implement the back end for my app
08:56 nothingmuch CDBI <-> SQLFairy
08:56 Darren_Duncan I'm giving away the backend for free, charging for the front end
08:56 nothingmuch what does rosetta actually do, btw?
08:57 Darren_Duncan Rosetta and SQL::Routine together sort of resemble a number of DBI wrappers you see on CPAN, such as Class::DBI or Alzabo or whatever ...
08:57 Darren_Duncan but they have a much greater emphasis on ensuring portability
08:58 Darren_Duncan and a much more thorough support for constructing SQL from data dictionaries
08:58 Darren_Duncan eg, you don't feed my stuff snippits of SQL because it can't construct what you want
08:59 Darren_Duncan it's better than the others in several ways, though I am mainly marketing the portability side
08:59 Darren_Duncan it is probably easier to demonstrate by example
08:59 * nothingmuch 's DDL thing has declarative sugar... each My::CDBI::Class has a ::Schema, you use that instead
08:59 Darren_Duncan however, since the stuff is so new, I haven't connected a few necessary bits for people to do everyday stuff like selects and inserts ... should work in a week or two though
09:00 nothingmuch then you have the FIELDS method, the RELATIONSHIPS method, etc
09:00 nothingmuch all very dwimmy
09:00 nothingmuch those construct SQLFairy schema objects
09:00 autrijus Darren_Duncan++ # wonderful p6c post
09:00 nothingmuch and then pump DDL to the DBD
09:00 Darren_Duncan part of your comment may have been cut off?
09:01 Darren_Duncan my stuff is less abstracted than Class::DBI
09:01 Darren_Duncan you see what is actually going on, in a manner of speaking
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09:01 Darren_Duncan One thing I hope will happen is that lots of the other DBI wrappers will decide to target my module instead of DBI, so I handle the portability issues, and they handle the "nice interface" and "super-abstraction" issues
09:02 Darren_Duncan DBI is great if you want to write the SQL yourself
09:02 Darren_Duncan its the fastest performing option
09:02 Darren_Duncan but you have to work harder to get portability, or to use a data dictionary
09:03 Darren_Duncan I liken it to comparing the likes of the C language and the likes of Java or Perl
09:03 Darren_Duncan DBI is closer to the bare metal
09:03 nothingmuch uhuh
09:03 nothingmuch cdbi has been keeping me generally happy
09:03 nothingmuch when i run into problems i solve them
09:04 nothingmuch but i can not worry about many things, in the short term, which is a property i like
09:04 nothingmuch then again, my project is not tightly coupled to CDBI
09:04 nothingmuch if it starts annoying me too much i might switch to something else
09:04 nothingmuch but so far i've been rather satisfied
09:04 Darren_Duncan tell me, do you have to "work around" any limitations in CDBI, or is its standard interface all you need by itself?
09:04 Darren_Duncan do you have to write any snippits of raw SQL?
09:05 Darren_Duncan or access the underlying DBI object for any reason?
09:05 nothingmuch so far i haven't needed to
09:05 nothingmuch i'll need to someday soon
09:05 nothingmuch my app's gui is not that smart
09:05 nothingmuch it's brains are
09:05 nothingmuch the brains only need persistence
09:06 nothingmuch the gui will need joins, etc
09:06 Darren_Duncan one thing about my solution is that it is intended to support very large and complicated apps, giving app writers the means to express what they really want, and yet make it all magically portable
09:06 nothingmuch we'll see how cdbi lives up to that when we get there
09:06 nothingmuch that's attractive
09:07 nothingmuch all i needed so far is just 'this object stays from run to run'
09:07 Darren_Duncan for example, you can use my module to define server-side stored procedures, triggers, etc, and they can install in any database, despite the difference in support for those things, or their syntax for doing so
09:07 Darren_Duncan so far your needs are more abstract than mine
09:07 nothingmuch what about exploiting niche features?
09:07 Darren_Duncan such as?
09:08 Darren_Duncan my solution is intended to support all useful features, including niche ones
09:08 nothingmuch so how does that become portable/
09:08 nothingmuch ?
09:08 nothingmuch do you say 'oh, to do that i need xyz, can't port to that'?
09:08 nothingmuch or do you work around silently?
09:09 Darren_Duncan part of what my module does is find replacements for one feature in another database
09:09 Darren_Duncan if database A can do a certain thing one way, and database B doesn't have that feature by name, but can emulate it another way, then each database's strengths are exploited
09:10 Darren_Duncan some things I can't emulate reliably, such as transactions, they support it or they don't
09:10 Darren_Duncan but any good database has transactions so I don't have to
09:10 nothingmuch uhuh
09:10 nothingmuch *cough* mysql *cough*
09:10 Darren_Duncan InnoDB does it
09:11 nothingmuch yeah, but for years...
09:11 Darren_Duncan that's the engine I use by default when the user wants mysql
09:11 nothingmuch i just don't trust the mysql attitude anymore
09:11 nothingmuch it's 'uh, that's not fast enough, try again in a few years'
09:12 nothingmuch it is -><- with 'make it work, make it work right, make it work fast'
09:12 Darren_Duncan one reason for what I'm doing is to make it easier for people to switch databases
09:12 nothingmuch contrary to that, sqlite gave up server admin overheads, and gave a much more usable database, which is just as fast
09:12 Darren_Duncan that way, the vendors have more incentive to compete, because vendor lock in has in large part been eliminated
09:12 nothingmuch that's a good cause =)
09:12 Darren_Duncan SQLite is my current favorite database
09:13 nothingmuch my app has something silly
09:13 Darren_Duncan I know how much people moan about Oracle's high prices, but stay with them due to huge amounts of stored procedures etc written to it
09:13 nothingmuch the DBI config part has a search list
09:13 Darren_Duncan or other vendors like MS etc
09:13 nothingmuch you can run the test suite against any DSN you find
09:13 nothingmuch i have postgresql running on my box, some other box has sqlite
09:13 nothingmuch mysql doesn't work because it can't unique() a bunch of fields with more than 500 chars altogether
09:13 nothingmuch and i haven't yet defined the field sizes in my DDL ;-)
09:14 Darren_Duncan now, separate parts ...
09:14 nothingmuch can rosetta parse all those stored procedures, and reliably convert them to say, db2?
09:14 nothingmuch or is it only for producing right now?
09:14 Darren_Duncan SQL::Routine is just a container, internally like an abstract syntax tree, where all the SQL (ddl and dml and etc) detail goes
09:15 Darren_Duncan external code can translate string SQL or other formats to or from that
09:15 nothingmuch use sqlfairy
09:15 nothingmuch branch it
09:15 nothingmuch and make it create sql routine stuff too
09:15 nothingmuch then commit the changes
09:15 nothingmuch they usually accept
09:15 nothingmuch you will get at least bidi ddl from many popular DB dialects for free
09:16 nothingmuch and also funky graphing options
09:16 nothingmuch my problem with sqlfairy is that it's reusability is 0
09:16 nothingmuch brb
09:16 Darren_Duncan anyone can create separate modules that translate to or from SQL::Routine models
09:16 Darren_Duncan before I write interfaces to other modules (except DBI itself), I'm trying to make my stuff so good that other people want to do the leg work of interfacing
09:17 Darren_Duncan better for them to want to come to me, than for me to want to go to them
09:17 Darren_Duncan but I do what I can to make it easier for them
09:19 Darren_Duncan Look at Pugs for similarity of sorts
09:19 Darren_Duncan Autrijus came up with this out of the blue, and people flock to him because it's so great; he didn't really go around begging people to come like a "yet another"
09:20 Darren_Duncan I'm hoping that what I'm doing stands out enough that people are compelled to come to it like the next greatest thing
09:21 Darren_Duncan I'm trying to be better than a "yet another"
09:21 flw bye
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09:22 Darren_Duncan In regards to your question: "can rosetta parse all those stored procedures, and reliably convert them to say, db2?" ...
09:23 Darren_Duncan the answer is that my core modules form the foundation to make this easy
09:23 Darren_Duncan I may also build the other parts so that this complete task can be done
09:23 Darren_Duncan unless someone else beats me to it
09:23 Darren_Duncan I'm focusing on the generator parts first
09:24 Darren_Duncan so 'yes'
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09:27 nothingmuch ppbeh
09:28 Darren_Duncan I hear you
09:28 Darren_Duncan fyi, it's 1:30am here now
09:28 nothingmuch i prefer that side of the am
09:28 nothingmuch yesterday i went to sleep at 23:00
09:28 nothingmuch i feel great because i slept a lot
09:29 Darren_Duncan sleep is great
09:29 Darren_Duncan of course, with my own hours, I get up at 10-11am
09:29 nothingmuch i need to get up early
09:29 nothingmuch and go to sleep late
09:29 nothingmuch and sleep a lot
09:29 nothingmuch to feel good
09:29 nothingmuch =P
09:29 nothingmuch i balance it out by sleeping 6 hours
09:29 nothingmuch going to sleep at 1:30-2:00
09:29 nothingmuch and waking up at 8
09:30 nothingmuch 7:30
09:30 Darren_Duncan I tend to need about 9-9.5 hours of sleep a night to feel good
09:30 nothingmuch sometimes
09:30 nothingmuch too much sleep is not good for me
09:30 nothingmuch even worse than too little
09:30 nothingmuch anything more than 8 hours is yucky
09:30 jdv79 has joined #perl6
09:30 nothingmuch 7 and a half seems to be the sweet spot
09:30 Darren_Duncan at a very minimum I need 8 hours per night, hard to focus with less
09:30 Darren_Duncan each person is different
09:30 nothingmuch but then i get less stuff done
09:30 nothingmuch uhuh
09:30 Darren_Duncan some people get on really well with just 2-3 hours a night
09:31 Darren_Duncan i hear there's one fellow in europe that hasn't slept at all for 20 years and is doing just fine
09:31 arcady I know someone who sleeps once every 2 or 3 days
09:31 arcady but that's kind of unusual
09:31 arcady though useful for a college student
09:32 Darren_Duncan now, you mentioned you wanted to be a musician, what else can you tell me on your ambitions there?
09:32 nothingmuch i don't want to be a musician
09:32 nothingmuch i'm enjoying playing music
09:32 Darren_Duncan what did you say then?
09:32 Darren_Duncan oh is that it?
09:32 nothingmuch uhuh
09:32 Darren_Duncan I remembered mentioning music several times
09:32 nothingmuch learning
09:32 nothingmuch but no where near advanced
09:32 nothingmuch well, i spend a lot of time and money on it
09:32 Darren_Duncan so what do you want to do?  is programming it, or something else?
09:33 nothingmuch alongside photography
09:33 nothingmuch i think i want to be a mathematician or a linguist or both, in some odd way
09:33 Darren_Duncan you want to be a photographer?
09:33 nothingmuch and leverage compsci to that advantage
09:33 Darren_Duncan sounds interesting
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09:33 Darren_Duncan I like those things too
09:33 Darren_Duncan did great in math at school
09:33 nothingmuch art stuff is my hobby
09:33 nothingmuch sort of
09:33 nothingmuch i like writing
09:33 nothingmuch photography
09:34 nothingmuch did horribly in math at school =)
09:34 nothingmuch plastic art
09:34 nothingmuch i barely finished in fact
09:34 nothingmuch music
09:34 nothingmuch but i've never had the patience to learn to excel in any
09:34 nothingmuch i blame it on personal difficulties though
09:34 Darren_Duncan I like reading graphic novels - its my favorite artistic medium
09:34 nothingmuch barely finished school as a whole
09:34 Darren_Duncan I'm not competent to make any though, so never tried
09:34 * nothingmuch enjoyed that lately
09:34 nothingmuch sin city
09:34 nothingmuch the maxx
09:34 Darren_Duncan I don't read those
09:34 nothingmuch they were nice
09:34 nothingmuch what do you read?
09:35 Darren_Duncan a variety of things ...
09:35 Darren_Duncan however, they fall mainly into 2 categories ...
09:35 Darren_Duncan X-Men and stuff like that
09:35 Darren_Duncan and various manga titles
09:35 nothingmuch xmen is a daunting task
09:35 Darren_Duncan I started 12 years ago
09:35 nothingmuch oh my
09:35 nothingmuch nearly 1/4th of the way through?
09:35 nothingmuch ;-)
09:36 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
09:36 Darren_Duncan I've read most of the series
09:36 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
09:37 nothingmuch Q is too close to tab and W
09:37 Darren_Duncan as I said when you were out ... I've read most of the series
09:37 nothingmuch oops, sorry
09:37 Darren_Duncan I waited
09:37 Darren_Duncan fortunately, there is that web archive of the IRC, so you don't miss anything
09:37 nothingmuch for ...?
09:37 nothingmuch new stuff?
09:38 Darren_Duncan I mean #perl6 is archived
09:38 Darren_Duncan so you can see anything you missed while not in here
09:38 nothingmuch ah
09:38 nothingmuch yes
09:38 decay nothingmuch: get a touchstream keyboard ;)
09:38 nothingmuch touchstrem?
09:38 * nothingmuch wants a matias tactile pro
09:38 decay so you can move your q a bit away from the tab :>
09:39 nothingmuch clickety clickety click
09:39 decay nothingmuch: http://www.fingerworks.com/lp_product.html :)
09:39 nothingmuch google found that for me
09:39 decay rocks ;)
09:39 nothingmuch i just don't know what it all means yet
09:40 Darren_Duncan decay, you like those yellow balls, don't you?
09:40 decay Darren_Duncan: balls?
09:40 Darren_Duncan they're meant to look like faces
09:40 Darren_Duncan at least thats how they show up on my client
09:40 Darren_Duncan "emoticons"
09:40 decay Darren_Duncan: you're on comic chat?
09:41 Darren_Duncan I'm using Colloquy
09:41 Darren_Duncan if you mean, do I discuss comics with people ... yes, mostly by email
09:41 Darren_Duncan I'm on a few discussion lists
09:42 decay Darren_Duncan: ohic, was just referencing a former microsoft product called comic chat that probably did the same (turn smileys into 'faces')
09:42 Darren_Duncan still, its currently less interesting than the Perl stuff
09:42 Darren_Duncan I think lots of clients do that
09:42 Darren_Duncan in any event, I never use emoticons myself
09:43 rgs I hate when people say "keep up the good work"
09:43 Darren_Duncan what's really annoying is that internet newbies think that image-based emoticons are the best thing since sliced bread, and use them absolutely everywhere
09:44 Darren_Duncan did my p6c and p6l comment in that regard annoy you
09:44 Darren_Duncan ?
09:44 decay hu?
09:44 Darren_Duncan or actually I said, "thanks for the good work"
09:44 rgs nope
09:45 Darren_Duncan anyway
09:45 rgs I'm mostly speaking about annoying clueless questioners or bug reporters that repeat that over and over, without being of any help.
09:45 decay nothingmuch: what's really nice about it is, that you never ever need to take your hands of the keyboard again
09:45 Darren_Duncan ok
09:46 Darren_Duncan don't you love it when bug reporters give you something you can't reproduce?
09:47 nothingmuch sorry, /me became busy again
09:47 Darren_Duncan I think I'll get off now, its almost 2am here
09:48 Darren_Duncan good whatever-time-of-day-or-night to you
09:48 nothingmuch decay: i always had trouble coping with do it all gesture systems
09:48 nothingmuch good localtime =)
09:48 nothingmuch ciao Darren_Duncan
09:48 nothingmuch i'm skeptic about my ability to adapt
09:49 nothingmuch and at $400 i'm not that eager to just try it ;-)
09:49 Darren_Duncan what does $400 have to do with adapting?
09:49 Darren_Duncan the keyboard, right?
09:49 lumi I'm cmd-clicking all over
09:49 nothingmuch that keyboard is roughly $400
09:49 nothingmuch uhuh
09:49 Darren_Duncan right
09:49 lumi And morning
09:49 nothingmuch cmd-clicking is fun, lumi =)
09:49 lumi Or such
09:49 nothingmuch that's a relative statement, lumi
09:49 lumi I meant ctrl-clicking
09:50 nothingmuch it isn't even morning in your time zone
09:50 nothingmuch ah
09:50 Darren_Duncan that reminds me of a saying of one of my computer profs ...
09:50 nothingmuch in that case get a usb 3 button mouse
09:50 Darren_Duncan "assembly is fun!"
09:50 nothingmuch it is fun
09:50 nothingmuch but not for real work
09:50 lumi Goot 9:50gmt
09:50 lumi s/oot/ood/ #meh!
09:50 lumi IRCing through two tunnels != fun
09:51 Darren_Duncan the same guy also liked to spell "wrong" as "rong" in his teaching examples
09:51 nothingmuch heh
09:51 Darren_Duncan double-negative
09:51 Darren_Duncan as in "this is the rong way to do it"
09:52 lumi Er, my point is adapting prolly not that hard
09:53 lumi I mean, a decade of right-click, and like 2 years of middle-click-paste
09:54 lumi Where are assignments in the Haskell?
09:54 nothingmuch that's not like adapting to dvorak
09:54 nothingmuch or gestures
09:54 nothingmuch it's one simple action
09:54 nothingmuch not a group of actions
09:55 lumi I used dvorak, I got it sorta OK in under 5 hours
09:55 lumi Definitely not as fast as my normal typing
09:55 lumi But I stopped swearing :P
09:55 lumi Also it makes your console more secure :P
09:55 lumi That kb is first a kb, you can use or not any particular gesture, I guess
09:56 lumi Also used a wacom tablet for some months.. It's not that hard to adapt
09:58 lumi Ehm, best be mobile
09:58 nothingmuch decay: hmm... maybe it actually is logical
09:58 lumi I have a hunch my ride isn't coming
09:59 nothingmuch given their return policy i think this can be done
10:00 decay nothingmuch: it's not easy to adapt
10:00 decay nothingmuch: was just the only solution for your q is to near to tab i could think of
10:00 nothingmuch i thought it was more ackward than what their FAQ says
10:00 decay you can actually redefine the place of keys on the keyboard
10:00 nothingmuch do you own one?
10:01 * nothingmuch is tempted by the ability to lean back and not touch the mouse
10:01 decay nothingmuch: i want one, two people i know have one and i tested it for maybe two evenings
10:01 nothingmuch and it seems capable enough to that, without having to give up the mouse's features
10:01 decay is it really 400$? up here it's like 250 euros
10:02 nothingmuch well, $339
10:02 nothingmuch add shipping
10:02 nothingmuch import overhead to israel
10:02 decay hrm, maybe you can get one at ebay too
10:02 * nothingmuch always rounds it up that way
10:02 nothingmuch but then you wouldn't be able to return it
10:02 nothingmuch i would rather know i can easily get rid of it with say a 25% loss
10:02 nothingmuch that is, it cost me $100 to try it
10:03 nothingmuch but, eh
10:03 nothingmuch we'll see
10:03 nothingmuch lunchtime
10:03 decay i just bought a van, so keyboards are secondary :)
10:03 * decay tries to compile pugs now
10:03 nothingmuch hah
10:03 nothingmuch i just bought a double bass
10:03 nothingmuch next is a bike
10:03 nothingmuch then a trumpet
10:03 nothingmuch then we'll see
10:03 nothingmuch ;-)
10:03 nothingmuch ciao!
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10:19 dada hola
10:47 nothingmuch hola
10:47 Juerd_ [anonymous monk]--  # the feature
10:48 Juerd_ I hate discussing something without having any idea who the other party might be
10:48 Juerd_ Especially because anyone can join in and claim they're the same person
10:48 nothingmuch Juerd_: i think perlmonks owes anonymous monk it's popularity tholugh
10:48 Juerd_ nothingmuch: I don't.
10:48 Juerd_ Part, certainly
10:49 Juerd_ But have you ever seen the HUGE number of registered users?
10:49 nothingmuch signing up is a process many people don't like doing
10:49 nothingmuch i have
10:49 Juerd_ Anonymonks don't add a lot of valuable traffic anymore.
10:49 nothingmuch it's about as big as the number of posts anonymous monks have
10:49 nothingmuch well, today that's true
10:49 nothingmuch but i think when PM started this might not have been the case
10:49 Juerd_ I'm not moaning about the past
10:50 Juerd_ The feature existed for a reason
10:50 Juerd_ And that may or may not be a good one. I don't really care.
10:50 Juerd_ I do question the current existance of the same reason
10:51 Juerd_ I don't mind wasting votes on anonymous posts
10:51 Juerd_ But it is very clear to me that when I vote anonymous posts, they're most often --
10:51 Juerd_ While most of my votes are ++
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12:13 Shillo Hullo!
12:15 autrijus greetings Shillo
12:16 * autrijus finally about to go home
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12:18 Shillo autrijus: *mutter* Subversion. !@#(!@#!@.
12:18 Shillo It interacts with my proxy. Or rather, doesn't interact. :/
12:19 * Shillo idly wonders if that swear is valid Perl6... ;)
12:22 autrijus ha.
12:22 autrijus I'm sorry, then
12:23 autrijus your proxy isn't DAV-friendly it seems
12:23 Shillo Actually it is.
12:23 autrijus interesting.
12:23 Shillo arch works properly with it. Problem seems to be ! in the filename
12:23 autrijus I'll bbiab. home &
12:24 Shillo (I /think/). It bounces me with 400 Invalied Request
12:24 Shillo Er, Invalid. :/
12:55 Juerd_ 13:22 < Shillo> autrijus: *mutter* Subversion. !@#(!@#!@.
12:55 Juerd_ 13:23  * Shillo idly wonders if that swear is valid Perl6... ;)
12:55 Juerd_ Yes, if followed by an array reference
12:55 Juerd_ On the next line
12:59 afbach has joined #perl6
13:06 autrijus indeed.
13:09 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
13:14 theorbtw1 Allo, Joshua.
13:14 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
13:14 autrijus hi theorbtwo :)
13:15 theorbtwo Ah, hi, autrijus.
13:15 Norman has joined #perl6
13:16 theorbtwo Anybody have easy access to an OSX box at present want to do me a quick favor?
13:16 autrijus I'll get access to one soon, but not handy
13:17 * autrijus finally starts to attack multidim data structure
13:17 * theorbtwo has heard a lot of that today.
13:17 autrijus a lot of ... what?
13:18 theorbtwo A lot of people who use OSX, but only at home, and who are presently at work.
13:18 Coke_ I have a laptop sitting next to me.
13:18 autrijus aye.
13:18 Coke_ I only have a 9600 baud network connection on it at the moment.
13:19 lumi Hi
13:20 theorbtwo Shouldn't need to do very much network IO, if you have SubEthaEdit installed.
13:20 lumi How are you doing with that subetha?
13:20 theorbtwo Not well; their test server seems to be down still, or possibly again.
13:20 Coke_ I do have subethaedit, actually.
13:21 Coke_ I'll fire up the network cxn.
13:21 autrijus woot, my perlchina talk is online
13:21 autrijus http://www.iperl.org/2.rm
13:22 theorbtwo And sadly, I didn't save my dumps when I had them, because I figured there was a test server, so I could get them any time I wanted.
13:22 * Coke_ was listening to howard stern this morning, and found out that Warren Tang is a photographer for Penthouse, and can't help but wonder if he's related. =-)
13:23 autrijus not at all :)
13:23 Coke_ ok, network up, SEE up.
13:23 * Coke_ figured Tang was a common name. Ah well. =-)
13:23 theorbtwo Great!  Try connecting to desert-island.dynodns.net
13:23 autrijus there are far fewer family names in the Han people
13:23 autrijus than western names
13:23 autrijus I think <60 or so
13:23 autrijus common ones
13:23 Coke_ connect how?
13:23 * theorbtwo wonders if that's because they've been using family names for longer.
13:24 Coke_ (I have SEE installed - I never USE it though. =-)
13:24 theorbtwo Hit the "internet" button on the toolbar, type it in the text-box.
13:24 Limbic_Region afternoon James
13:24 theorbtwo D'oh... it's in Chinese, isn't it?
13:24 autrijus sure it is :)
13:25 dada buuuuuh
13:25 * dada --
13:25 alexe has joined #perl6
13:26 dada I finally managed to compile pugs, but my unary * does not absolutely work
13:26 dada in fact, it is completely useless
13:26 autrijus so it sort of works?
13:26 dada it simply does nothing
13:26 dada well, my first 15 useless lines of Haskell :-)
13:27 autrijus I'd still like to see them :)
13:27 Coke_ Well, if you see a Coleda, it's related to me. there aren't that many of us in teh US. (maybe a dozen)
13:27 Coke_ I get "see://....." and "could not connect"
13:27 Juerd_ dada: You've written Inf times as much Haskell as I have
13:28 autrijus mmm NaN times
13:28 Juerd_ inf isan
13:28 dada perlbot: nopaste?
13:28 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
13:28 Juerd_ Or, rather, Inf.isa(Num) :)
13:28 Coke_ perlbot: seen obra?
13:29 pasteling "dada" at 193.203.230.22 pasted "unary * that doesn't work" (15 lines, 661B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8071
13:29 Coke_ theorbtwo - I tried to reconnect, same message. Anything else?
13:29 Khisanth has joined #perl6
13:29 theorbtwo Coke, you're connected via SBC Northeast?
13:29 autrijus well, NaN.isa(Num)
13:30 autrijus (pugs supports for NaN and Inf)
13:30 autrijus s/for/both/
13:30 theorbtwo Ah, nifty!
13:30 nnunley has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
13:32 theorbtwo There's something wrong with my networking on the emulated ppc box, I think.
13:33 Juerd_ 14:33 < autrijus> well, NaN.isa(Num)
13:33 Juerd_ paradox! :)
13:33 Coke_ theorbtwo;that sounds about right. I'm using my mom's internet connection over a bluetooth enabled cell phone. Pretty sure that's what she has. =-)
13:33 Juerd_ Perhaps Num should override isa!
13:33 autrijus NaNiaN
13:33 Juerd_ hehehe
13:33 Coke_ er, "dialup internet"
13:33 dada NaN does Num :-)
13:33 Juerd_ dada: Right! :)
13:34 Juerd_ Pfew, logic's back :)
13:34 autrijus heh :)
13:34 Coke_ disconnecting...
13:35 autrijus heads-up: as of r572 interactive "shell" no longer prints ASTs for evalled code; you need the '?' prefix (i.e. ?code) for that
13:35 Juerd_ my class Foo::Bar { ... }  # valid?
13:35 dada makes sense
13:35 theorbtwo Oh, good; I found that annoying.
13:36 autrijus :)
13:36 autrijus now, would you like "my $x" declared in a REPL step be continued to the next line?
13:36 autrijus pugs> my $x = 3
13:36 autrijus pugs> $x
13:36 autrijus 3
13:36 autrijus currently the env is wiped for each REPL step.
13:36 autrijus pugs> my $x = 3
13:37 autrijus pugs> $x
13:37 autrijus undefined var: $x
13:37 dada I vote for wipe
13:37 autrijus you got it :)
13:37 autrijus I think wipe is better, too
13:37 dada what a democracy :-)
13:37 autrijus just wonder if folks find that inconvenient
13:37 autrijus well, it's 2:0 :)
13:37 theorbtwo I think continuing is more convient.
13:37 theorbtwo A :wipe would possible be best-of-both-worlds?
13:38 autrijus well... true.
13:38 dada autrijus: did you look at my code?
13:38 autrijus I don't feel strong about it
13:39 autrijus yes, looking
13:39 autrijus but have to go out buying some drinks
13:39 autrijus will be back in 15 mins
13:39 dada ok, later
13:41 iblechbot has joined #perl6
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13:54 autrijus ...back
13:55 autrijus dada: the logic is quite clear...
13:55 theorbtwo Have enough to get you properly drunk now?
13:55 autrijus uh, it's tea
13:55 autrijus I don't easily get drunk by drinking green tea
13:55 autrijus so no
13:56 theorbtwo Hmm, tea sounds like a good idea.
13:56 autrijus dada: this shoud make
13:56 autrijus $a = *$b;
13:56 autrijus expand $b and assign $b[0] to $a
13:56 autrijus if $b contains a list
13:56 dada yes
13:56 autrijus yet it does not? :)
13:56 dada I thought it should, but it doesn't
13:56 autrijus ok, I'll trace. wait me a bit
13:58 Juerd_ 14:59 < autrijus> $a = *$b;
13:58 Juerd_ But?
13:58 Juerd_ Is that correct?!
13:58 Juerd_ I thought all * did was provide list context
13:58 autrijus $a := *$b; # this maybe?
13:58 Juerd_ And please tell me scalars don't deref in list context
13:58 autrijus I thought * is the derefer
13:58 Juerd_ No, that's still @
13:58 autrijus please tell me if I'm mad
13:59 autrijus $a = @$b; # like this?
13:59 Juerd_ That's the same as $a = $b though
13:59 Juerd_ If you want to splat and deref, * and @
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13:59 Juerd_ $a = *@$b
13:59 autrijus $a = *@$b;
13:59 autrijus eww!
13:59 Juerd_ (I hope. Otherwise, things really are insane)
13:59 Juerd_ autrijus: Yes, but how often does this even happen?
13:59 autrijus I swear I've seen "$a = *$b;" somewhere...
13:59 autrijus since $b is only part of the name
14:00 autrijus should recheck Syn/Apo
14:00 Juerd_ $b isn't flattenable
14:00 autrijus so only lists can be flattened?
14:00 autrijus *%h?
14:00 Juerd_ %h in list context flattens to a list of kv
14:00 Juerd_ And * provides list context
14:00 dada and also $a = *@b;
14:00 Juerd_ That is - unless I am mad...
14:01 Juerd_ Fortunately @a = [ ... ] turns out to assign to @a[0] after all
14:01 Juerd_ That gives me some hope back :)
14:01 fayland has joined #perl6
14:02 dada Juerd_: then please reply http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/19557 and say that I'm wrong :-)
14:03 Juerd_ dada: Not until I'm sure
14:03 Juerd_ And that requires some reading that I don't have the time for now
14:03 autrijus hi fayland!
14:03 fayland hi
14:04 dada Juerd_: ok, but let's discuss this. maybe Larry already did some reading :-)
14:05 autrijus indeed :)
14:05 * autrijus chasing that thread
14:05 Juerd_ I really really really hope (and it is my current understanding) that * only provides list context, and is in that way a non-listop alias for "list"
14:05 Juerd_ *@foo, @bar
14:05 Juerd_ equals
14:05 Juerd_ list(@foo), @bar
14:06 Juerd_ IIRC
14:06 autrijus wait wait
14:06 autrijus split ne list
14:06 autrijus splat ne list
14:06 Juerd_ splat
14:06 dada mmm not
14:06 autrijus for argument binding
14:06 Juerd_ This isn't argument binding
14:06 Juerd_ :='s LHS is special
14:06 dada oh, sure, for argument binding it's different
14:06 autrijus I thought the idea is that you can do it at caller site too
14:06 autrijus sub foo (@a) { ... }
14:06 Juerd_ We're talking about the RHS now, which is just an expression, right?
14:06 autrijus err
14:06 autrijus sub foo ($a) { ... }
14:06 autrijus foo(*@a);
14:07 Juerd_ Yes
14:07 autrijus foo(list @a); # different
14:07 Juerd_ Oh, right
14:07 Juerd_ I hadn't thought of that detail
14:07 dada yeah
14:07 autrijus so, fundamentally different
14:07 Juerd_ Still, all it does is provide list context, right?
14:07 dada and the first example in S03 is really scary
14:07 Juerd_ Yeah, list in scalar context still is an arrayref
14:07 autrijus but list provides list context
14:07 Juerd_ Yes, but after that, it constructs a new arrayref in scalar context
14:07 autrijus oh. I see wym
14:07 Juerd_ Which splat does not
14:07 dada my @args = (\@foo, @bar); push *@args;
14:07 autrijus so * means "force list context thru"
14:08 autrijus not only "provide list context"
14:08 Juerd_ Yes
14:08 autrijus this is muddy :-/
14:08 autrijus dada: have you coded lwall's answer into tests yet?
14:08 dada no, not yet
14:08 dada I have only 1 test so far :-)
14:09 autrijus ok. I think a test file is the best way to do this
14:09 dada sure
14:09 Juerd_ It's important to note that the RHS * has nothing to do with the LHS *
14:09 autrijus Juerd_: you mean for assignment.
14:09 dada Juerd_: why not?
14:09 Juerd_ The LHS * is for slurpiness, the RHS * has nothing to do with that
14:09 autrijus not for binding
14:09 Juerd_ They do both provide list context, though
14:10 Juerd_ autrijus: Assignment has no LHS *
14:10 autrijus true and true.
14:10 autrijus for binding, the RHS * also mandates slurpiness, no?
14:10 Juerd_ No, not at all
14:10 Juerd_ The only explicit way to indicate something is for the slurpy list is <== or ==>
14:11 autrijus ETOOMANYSYMBOLS
14:11 autrijus but, ok.
14:11 Juerd_ sub foo ($foo, *@bar) { ... }  foo(*@args)
14:11 Juerd_ That makes $foo be @args[0]
14:11 Juerd_ And @bar be @args[1...]
14:11 autrijus sub foo ($foo, @bar) { ... }
14:11 autrijus foo(*@args);
14:11 Juerd_ Same thing
14:11 autrijus same?
14:11 autrijus that's what I mean by forcing into LHS
14:11 Juerd_ The * in the signature is ignored when splatting, afaik
14:11 dada no!
14:12 Juerd_ foo <== @args would leave $foo undef, and cram @args all into @bar
14:12 dada that makes $foo = @args[0] and @bar = @args[1], not?
14:12 Juerd_ dada: Hm, good point indeed
14:12 Juerd_ It must be
14:12 dada yes, I'm pretty sure
14:12 Juerd_ Unless perhaps, the ** is used
14:12 Juerd_ I never understood the need for ** before
14:13 dada it should also die unless @args contains 2 emelents
14:13 autrijus right.
14:13 autrijus that is my reading.
14:13 Juerd_ So this is where you'd use **?
14:13 autrijus dada: can you please code them into tests? :)
14:13 autrijus I'm grokking your code now and trying to make it work.
14:13 dada autrijus: yep
14:14 dada Juerd_: ** should just be an eager *, but I have no clue where this should be used
14:15 Juerd_ Maybe ** does flatten arrayrefs
14:15 Juerd_ I don't see the point in spelling that ** instead of *@ though
14:15 autrijus I think ** is the way.
14:15 Shillo Juerd: <belatedly> Thanks for clarification. About the swear, that is. ;)
14:15 autrijus Shillo: you're welcome #*($^&@(#%&!@$
14:15 dada Juerd_: no, it doesn't flatten arrayrefs
14:16 Shillo No comment.
14:16 dada Juerd_: * is evaluated lazily, while ** is evaluated eagerly. this is the only difference AFAIK
14:16 Juerd_ Oh!
14:16 Juerd_ So *1..Inf isn't a problem, but **1..Inf is?
14:16 dada yes
14:16 Juerd_ Thanks
14:16 autrijus *[1..Inf] to be precise.
14:16 Juerd_ I finarry understand it
14:16 Juerd_ autrijus: No, that's an array reference, and thus not flattened
14:17 Juerd_ (I hope)
14:17 autrijus I thought an arrayref is always flattened in list context.
14:17 autrijus I thought.
14:17 autrijus it seems the highlander types are prone to misunderstanding
14:17 Juerd_ I don't know for sure, but I certainly do hope scalars stay scalars in any context
14:18 alexe has left
14:18 Juerd_ Because otherwise you cannot expect sub foo ($foo, @bar, $baz) { ... } @args = ('foo', [], 'baz'); foo *@args to work as expected
14:18 Juerd_ Or wait
14:18 Juerd_ This is 1st/2nd level
14:19 Juerd_ I'll try to think of a relevant example
14:19 Juerd_ You know what? I can't think of any :)
14:19 autrijus heh!
14:19 Juerd_ So *$foo can equal *@$foo for all I presently care
14:20 Juerd_ currently
14:20 autrijus yay.
14:20 autrijus I'm glad we agreed.
14:20 Juerd_ heh
14:20 autrijus (because that's how pugs' AST.hs always assumed)
14:20 autrijus (implicit deref that is)
14:20 Juerd_ * binds tighter than ,, right?
14:20 autrijus ,, ?
14:20 autrijus pugs> . *1,2
14:20 autrijus {{  Syn ","
14:20 autrijus    {App "&prefix:*" (1);
14:20 autrijus     2}
14:20 autrijus }}
14:20 Juerd_ C<*> binds tighter than C<,>, right?
14:20 autrijus 'fraid not
14:21 Juerd_ Then foo($foo, *$bar, $baz) is a problem
14:21 Juerd_ With aforementioned ($foo, @bar, $baz)
14:21 Juerd_ and if $baz is an arrayref
14:22 Juerd_ Which you'd want to stay an arrayref when bound to $baz
14:22 autrijus it'd be help if there is a operational semantics.
14:22 autrijus i.e. what really happens when the processor sees assignment and binding and *
14:22 autrijus in small-step languages
14:22 autrijus I'll see if I can generate one.
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14:22 Juerd_    symbolic unary      ! + - ~ ? * ** +^ ~^ ?^ \
14:22 Juerd_ Is MUCH tighter than ,
14:23 Juerd_ This is good
14:23 Odin- has joined #perl6
14:25 autrijus yeah, * is very tight.
14:25 autrijus sorry, parsed your POD-formatted question the wrong way
14:26 Juerd_ Now to figure out what our new ,, does
14:26 Juerd_ It should be ,undef, :)
14:26 Juerd_ As in good old basic
14:26 lumi Mhhhh
14:27 Juerd_ select ,,, .3;
14:27 lumi That's a very bad idea, it's completely illegible
14:27 Juerd_ lumi: ;;; is valid
14:27 Juerd_ But ,,, is meaningless
14:27 Juerd_ It should imply undef imo
14:27 lumi Those are just null statements, mean nothing, do less
14:27 theorbtwo p5 ignores extra commas in lists, I see no reason p6 should change that.
14:27 Juerd_ undef is the expression variant of null statements
14:27 lumi But blah $foo ,, $bar ,,,,,,,, $baz ,, 5 is illegible
14:28 * Shillo gets 6.0.0.10 release... Compilecompile...
14:28 Juerd_ Yes, I'm not suggesting you use it like that
14:28 lumi That's what happens in Basic
14:28 lumi And that's what the named parameters are for, surely
14:28 theorbtwo It doesn't generally come up except for a single trailing comma, which is quite nice that it's ignored.
14:28 Juerd_ But DBI.connect("some dsn",,, { RaiseError => 1 }) would be much better than DBI.connect("some dsn", undef, undef, { RaiseError => 1 })
14:29 Juerd_ Ignoring the fact that you wouldn't use positional arguments for RaiseError
14:29 theorbtwo It would?
14:29 Juerd_ (DBI.connect("some dsn", :raise_error))
14:29 Juerd_ theorbtwo: *trailing* should be ignored indeed
14:29 dada or DBI.connect("some dsn" :raise_error), even
14:29 Juerd_ But two commas in a row should properly separate THREE elements
14:29 lumi Yes
14:30 theorbtwo Some day, you're going to have to debug a problem where you wrote three commas, but only wanted two.
14:30 lumi Sounds like a bug waiting to happen in generated code
14:30 theorbtwo You will spend hours and hours staring at the code, wondering what could possibly be wrong, and not seeing it.
14:30 lumi Or that, yup
14:30 Juerd_ theorbtwo: That's stupid to write regardless of how it's interpreted.
14:30 Juerd_ And it should probably emit a warning no matter anyway
14:31 Juerd_ But "foo",,"bar" as "foo", undef, "bar" makes an awful lot of sense to me
14:31 Juerd_ And I must admit that select ,,, .3 does have some appeal
14:31 Juerd_ Compared to select undef, undef, undef, .3
14:31 Juerd_ Even though select timeout => 3 is already solving the same problem in another way
14:31 lumi So *(,) is the new undef?
14:31 Juerd_ Don't forget oneliners
14:32 Juerd_ lumi: No, that's a trailing comma :)
14:32 Juerd_ And thus ignored
14:32 lumi What is it trailing?
14:32 Juerd_ It's not before any term
14:32 Juerd_ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the end of a list should still be ignored
14:32 Juerd_ ,,,,,,,,,,,,$foo though, should be many elements
14:33 theorbtwo That's why I suggested always ignoring.
14:33 lumi So you eat undefs off the end of a list
14:33 theorbtwo Removes the "trailing" bit from the rule.
14:33 Juerd_ lumi: Not explicit undefs
14:33 theorbtwo Simple rules are a great goodness.
14:33 Juerd_ theorbtwo: Simple rules are not for Perl, imo
14:33 Juerd_ Perl should dwym
14:33 lumi Is (,) anything? It looks like a term
14:34 Juerd_ lumi: It looks like an empty list
14:34 lumi For some values of "looks"
14:34 Juerd_ , is the list constructor
14:34 theorbtwo Looks like an empty list to me too.
14:34 autrijus (,) looks like a esyntax level
14:34 Juerd_ Even though it no longer provides list context
14:34 autrijus error
14:34 Juerd_ If trailing commas are ignored, so should lone commas
14:35 autrijus (,1,2,3)
14:35 lumi What about er, opposite-of-trailing commas?
14:35 Juerd_ That should be undef, 1, 2, 3 imo
14:35 lumi Yes, those
14:35 autrijus leading comma is p5 errors
14:35 autrijus not seeing how useful it is
14:35 Juerd_ Yes, it's an error in perl 5 now
14:35 Juerd_ It should be implying undef terms imo
14:35 * lumi thinks of the "empty pattern"
14:35 Juerd_ order trailing, leading
14:35 theorbtwo Leading comma is nice for a purticular style of writing long lists: Always begin with a comma, or always end with a comma.
14:35 autrijus as long as it's not a ruling I'll continue to implement it as an error
14:35 lumi It's now a syntax error, right?
14:35 autrijus lumi: yeah
14:36 theorbtwo Keeps "first" and "last" elements from being special.
14:36 autrijus lumi: in p5, p6 and haskell
14:36 Juerd_ theorbtwo: I ***HATE*** that style in Perl.
14:36 lumi I mean like /(foo|bar|)/
14:36 Juerd_ http://perl.4pro.net/pcs.html  # die!
14:36 theorbtwo I would dislike the leading comma style as well, prefer the ending style.  But it's a valid choice for someone to make.
14:37 Juerd_ lumi: There it's very different because in rules, strings are not quoted.
14:37 Juerd_ And you thus have a null string
14:37 theorbtwo lumi, /(foo|bar|)/ is quite different, because... yeah, what juerd said.
14:37 theorbtwo That's the correct way of writing an empty string in a re alternation.
14:37 Juerd_ And this null string is very misleading
14:37 Juerd_ Which is why it's now forbidden
14:38 Juerd_ (foo|bar|<null>) is what you must use if you really mean it.
14:38 lumi Isn't it a similar, if less deadly, error to have a leading comma?
14:39 theorbtwo I thought that was just for REs consisting /only/ of the null assertation.
14:39 lumi Everywhere, I think
14:40 * theorbtwo shrugs... I still think that if you want an undef, you should write one...
14:40 theorbtwo But if leading and trailing commas are ignored, that's good enough for me.
14:41 Juerd_ If undef were aliased u, I'd agree
14:41 Juerd_ But it's a lot of typing for nothing
14:41 Juerd_ :)
14:41 fayland_ has joined #perl6
14:41 theorbtwo I certianly hope adverbs will make it come up a lot less.
14:41 lumi sub u () { undef } # ?
14:41 Juerd_ lumi: &u ::= &CORE::undef
14:41 Juerd_ But yeah
14:41 lumi Ah
14:41 Juerd_ Still, that's USELESS for oneliners
14:42 lumi True
14:42 lumi So leading commas could be in the oneliner pragma
14:42 Juerd_ Please, let's accept for a change that oneliners are half of Perl's reason to exist.
14:42 lumi Or whathaveyou
14:42 Juerd_ Perl 6's design appears to ignore oneliners greatly
14:42 Juerd_ They're not as important as big programs, I agree
14:42 Juerd_ But there is a reason the great languages ruby and python and php are all almost never used for oneliners
14:43 Juerd_ (Where "great" refers to popular)
14:43 rgs didn't larry said that -e was implicitly turning strict off in perl 6 ?
14:43 Coke_ has left
14:43 autrijus I thought ruby is okay for 1liners
14:43 autrijus rgs: yes he did.
14:44 Shillo Hm. zsh should be able to autoindent perl from its builtin editor. :)
14:44 Shillo (well, and python and ruby)
14:45 * Shillo can imagine that. gcc -o zsh ... ... ... -lemacs ...
14:45 Juerd_ rgs: Yes, but does that help with named arguments?
14:45 Juerd_ I think serious thought should be given to adding short versions of named arguments
14:46 Juerd_ So that the imaginare :raise_error can also be written as :re
14:46 Shillo Juerd_: The one I know of is :argname<stringvalue>
14:46 fayland has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:46 Shillo And :argname to mean argname => 1
14:46 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:46 Juerd_ I suggested "+$raise_error is short<re>" before, but it was never really answered
14:46 Juerd_ Shillo: That doesn't make argname any shorter
14:46 Juerd_ +$verbose is short<v> is the canonical example
14:46 Shillo Oh. Now I get it.
14:47 Juerd_ Like --verbose and -v
14:47 Juerd_ select undef, undef, undef, 0.3 is a lot of typing just to get usleep(.3)
14:47 Juerd_ Of course, sleep should be high res by default, but that's besides my point
14:47 Juerd_ select ,,,.3 is one way of fixing it
14:47 Juerd_ select timeout => .3 is another, but it's still a lot of typing for a oneliner
14:48 Juerd_ select :to<.3>'d fix that
14:48 Juerd_ Although passing a string feels weird
14:48 Juerd_ So let's make that
14:48 Juerd_ select :to(.3)
14:48 Juerd_ :)
14:48 Juerd_ s/to/t/ # even better
14:48 Juerd_ (because 'to' is a word)
14:48 Shillo macro prefix:, (Str $rhs) { return "(undef, $rhs)"; }
14:48 theorbtwo Can somebody find a case where it's /not/ beside the point?
14:48 Shillo ?
14:49 Juerd_ Shillo: Possibly - still, any "define it yourself" answer is completely unacceptable in the context of oneliners
14:49 Shillo Then do select *,,,.3
14:49 theorbtwo That is, where it's not trivially fixed by better API design?
14:49 Juerd_ theorbtwo: Hardly, because I'm limiting myself to well known perl 5 for examples, so you all know what I mean
14:50 Juerd_ Hence select and DBI
14:50 malaire has joined #perl6
14:50 Shillo Juerd_: What does perl5 do there?
14:50 Juerd_ "is short" would fix all this in the most wonderful way
14:50 Juerd_ Shillo: syntax error
14:50 Shillo I mean, is there any shorter form for usleep?
14:50 Juerd_ usleep isn't core
14:50 Shillo (based on selecT)
14:50 Shillo Hmm. perl -e should include ~/.eperl?
14:51 Juerd_ NO!
14:51 Juerd_ perl's used in many shell scripts
14:51 Juerd_ It should not EVER include a user defined script implicitly
14:52 Shillo Oif. Right.
14:52 autrijus indeed.
14:52 Juerd_ Besides that, I want short answers on IRC ;)
14:52 Juerd_ Which is another reason not to cram these things into -e or another switch
14:52 Juerd_ perlgeek-to-perlgeek conversation should also be optimized
14:52 Juerd_ It's something that happens a lot in certain channels
14:53 autrijus heh.
14:53 Juerd_ If the real thing is too long to type, you very quickly fall down to pseudo code
14:53 Juerd_ While if the real thing has a short way to be expressed, that's how you communicate it
14:53 Juerd_ ~~somefunc is already used to mean "somefunc in scalar context"
14:54 Juerd_ And in Perl 6 context, I've seen +@foo to mean "the number of elements in @foo" many times already.
14:54 Juerd_ Perl's not just a programming language
14:54 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
14:54 Juerd_ It has a very important cultural aspect
14:55 Juerd_ And think of golf too
14:55 Juerd_ >><< provides new fun for golf
14:55 lumi And the obfuscation people, of course
14:55 Juerd_ But it shouldn't be completely screwed up by longer keywords
14:55 Juerd_ I personally don't care about obfuscation
14:55 Juerd_ And don't think ANY language design will stop the obfuscators
14:56 lumi Hm
14:56 Juerd_ Or encourage them
14:56 lumi Can there be ", ," and not ",," ?
14:56 autrijus PROCEDURE DIVISION
14:56 Juerd_ That'd be bad
14:56 Juerd_ autrijus: ouch :)
14:56 Juerd_ 000001 use strict;
14:56 Juerd_ Please, god, no.
14:56 lumi Heh
14:56 Shillo I'm not sure about the encourage part. (*!(@#*()!@ in J is probably not only valid, but potentially useful. :)
14:56 autrijus SI`SK``IS`ISK``SI`KKI
14:56 lumi Unlambda?
14:56 autrijus (lazy k)
14:57 Juerd_ That's very sik, eh sick indeed.
14:57 autrijus lazy k > unlambda any time
14:57 Shillo autrijus: I dare you to use c in unlambda. :)
14:57 autrijus Shillo: Lazy K is always C
14:57 autrijus implicitly!
14:57 Shillo C is callcc, IIRC
14:57 autrijus oh. sorry. thought d
14:57 autrijus (delay)
14:59 Shillo When COBOL gets mentioned, I immediately think about loop macro in Common LISP. (loop for i in some-data when (oddp x) collect x)
15:00 Juerd_ (((((((((( lisp-grouphug ))))))))))
15:00 Shillo Friend of mine couldn't believe one could do list comprehentions with this until I enlightened him. -- Heh!
15:00 * Steve_p (((( hugs )))) Juerd_
15:00 Juerd_ :))
15:00 Juerd_ eh
15:00 Juerd_ :)
15:01 Steve_p You've gone paren happy :)
15:01 Juerd_ Yeah, I usually avoid them
15:01 Juerd_ So I had some spares
15:02 Shillo loop is paren-unhappy. Which is -why- it looks like COBOL, rather than LISP.
15:02 Steve_p Actually loop is a Pascal-like structure.  PL/SQL actually uses that type of construct a lot
15:04 Shillo Steve_p: Uhm... don't think so. Problem with loop is that it doesn't have any internal separators.
15:04 Shillo Steve_p: (loop with a = 1 with b = 3 for i in 1 to 5 for j in 2 to 6 for x across vector when (is-blue sky) collect i collect j collect k)
15:05 lumi Evil
15:05 Shillo Although, it's a good answer to those who claim that lisp has too many parens. ;)
15:06 * Steve_p didn't think loop looked like that, but he is frequently wrong :)
15:06 Shillo There -is- such thing as too few parens in lisp.
15:06 lumi I was trying to figure out a way to pythonize (as it were) scheme
15:07 lumi Or hm
15:07 lumi Haskellize. That's it.
15:07 Shillo http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw44/LWRM/html/lwref-83.htm
15:07 Shillo (scroll to the bottom. Fear and loathe)
15:07 theorbtwo Haskelate?
15:08 lumi And this is actually in clisp?
15:08 lumi Goddess
15:08 xerox HM
15:08 Shillo lumi: Oh, I mostly have my fun in Lisp, actually. My only gripe with it are libraries and practicalities, not syntax.
15:08 xerox lumi, what do you mean with `pythonize scheme' ?
15:08 xerox lumi, ...and clisp is an implementation.
15:08 Shillo (mostly I just DON'T use more than 3-4 clauses in loop macro)
15:09 lumi I mean, try to get rid of the parens, replace them with indent
15:09 lumi Not all the parens, but as many as you'd like
15:09 xerox lumi, why?
15:09 lumi For legibility and correctness
15:10 lumi And because I had a free weekend
15:10 Shillo Haskel indenting rules would make more sense, actually.
15:10 xerox Indentation makes the code very much readable. But the parens are good, to me.
15:10 Shillo I just don't see parens. :)
15:10 xerox Shillo, exactly.
15:11 lumi Until the end of a function has )))))) 3 )))
15:11 lumi It sort of melts the brain of me
15:11 xerox lumi, not if you use a good editor.
15:11 * lumi exaggerates immensely, but not abotu the brainmelting
15:11 lumi But emacs works better with lisp
15:11 xerox Do you know M-( ?
15:11 Shillo lumi: I don't see those, either, and I just punch the ) until emacs says I'm okay.
15:11 xerox Shillo, yeah, or M-(.
15:12 lumi No, my emacs-fu is weak
15:12 xerox Or even sedit.el.
15:12 Shillo lumi: That's until it highlights the right open paren.
15:12 Shillo lumi: Nicer than C, because I -know- I can chain-punch ), and not have to do )])]])
15:13 xerox (That is an attempt to make a scheme structure editor in Emacs)
15:13 * xerox agrees with Shillo completely.
15:13 xerox We went a little OT, btw :)
15:14 Shillo Hm. Yep. :/
15:14 lumi This is possible..
15:14 lumi Thanks for the tips, though :)
15:15 autrijus OT is fine :)
15:15 * autrijus learned a lot
15:15 * Shillo notes, I saw the computer reset on 2 (or was it 3) occasions by using emacs structure editing keybindings. :)
15:15 autrijus <- totally clueless about emacs
15:15 Shillo CTRL-ALT-backspace is particularily useful in emacs... if X isn't already using it... :)
15:16 lumi Heh
15:16 lumi Unbind alt from meta
15:16 lumi And you're safe!
15:16 Shillo Nah. I wouldn't be able to use alt for everything else then.
15:16 xerox Okay, you should also know C-M-n (foward-sexp) C-m-p (backward-sexp)
15:16 Shillo Just got used to typing ESP CTRL-backspace
15:16 Shillo I also use C-M-t
15:17 theorbtwo I sometimes wish I had a keyboard with windows keys on it, because then I'd have more meta-bits to play with.
15:17 xerox Shillo, is there an `inverse C-M-t' ?
15:18 Shillo Hmm, whatcha mean? C-M-t is swap-sexp, but I think of it more as pull-sexp
15:18 Shillo Also, forward|backward-sexp are bound on alt-<- and alt--> (cursor keys) in xemacs.
15:18 * Shillo uses xemacs. The heretic.
15:19 * theorbtwo does as well.
15:19 xerox In Emacs M-< goes to the Top and M-> to the Bottom of the buffer.
15:19 theorbtwo Trying to code without M-g makes me want to kill myself.
15:19 theorbtwo Or better, whatever miscreant doesn't have a copy of xemacs installed.
15:19 Shillo xerox: <- and -> I meant the cursor keys, not ><
15:20 xerox Shillo, ah.
15:20 theorbtwo Speaking of wanting to kill myself, any mac users around now?
15:20 xerox In Emacs are C-M-'->' and C-M-'<-'
15:20 theorbtwo I figured out why Coke couldn't connect to me before...
15:20 * Shillo edges away from theorbtwo.
15:20 Shillo xerox: I bound those in Metacity.
15:20 xerox Shillo, thanks, I learnt something new :)
15:21 * Shillo *really* insists on C-A-(<- | ->) being available for desktop switching. :)
15:22 theorbtwo Seriously, the wanting to kill myself was in jest.  Either I need to install another pearpc instance on another machine, and figure out routing for /that/, or I need somebody else with a second mac.
15:22 xerox bbl
15:22 lumi You use Metacity?!??
15:23 Shillo lumi: Full GNOME, really.
15:23 lumi Metacity, ick
15:23 lumi Switch back to Sawfish!
15:23 Shillo lumi: Bitrot.
15:23 lumi IT has a cooler name (and a lisp engine)
15:23 lumi Mh, excuses
15:23 lumi :P
15:23 fayland_ has quit IRC ()
15:23 Shillo Metacity has dropshadows.
15:24 * Shillo waits for e17. :)
15:24 * Shillo actually installed e17 preview.
15:24 Shillo Drew the same reactions from cow-orkers as e9, e10, e11, e12, etc. Crowd behind my sholders and stuff.
15:25 Shillo As far as WMs are concerned, I just don't care about more features than Metacity already has. Which leaves us with eyecandy as the sole criterium of WM choice. :)
15:26 lumi e17 currently is cute, blazingly fast, and completely useless
15:26 lumi Very pretty though
15:26 Shillo Yep, my thoughs exactly.
15:27 Shillo But I'd actually want to use it if it only had keybindings.
15:27 Shillo And frankly, I'm not sure it doesn't have them. They ought to be addable to the default edje file.
15:28 * Shillo hmms. We got even further OT. Sowwy.
15:31 autrijus that is fine :)
15:32 khisanth_ has joined #perl6
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15:39 * Shillo finally builds svn version of pugs. Checked it out with wget --mirror.
15:39 autrijus clever.
15:40 * autrijus is still wrangling with multidim and *
15:40 Shillo DIED. FAILED tests 11-37 in t/op/auto
15:40 autrijus I think our AST model needs readjustment :-/
15:40 autrijus right! that is the thing I'm fixing.
15:45 autrijus otherwise it works?
15:46 autrijus mandel.p6 brots and life.p6 lives?
15:49 khisanth_ has joined #perl6
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15:52 autrijus yay. found a task.
15:52 autrijus convert emacs outline to s5 slides
15:52 * autrijus starts to write it in pugs-runnable perl6
15:53 autrijus that will nicely exercise multidim
15:54 Khisanth s5?
15:56 autrijus s5 is wonderful.
15:56 autrijus # http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
15:57 autrijus mmm kwid2s5 is more fun!
15:57 autrijus that will also force me to finish ext/Kwid/ ;)
15:57 * Khisanth was thinking synopsis
15:57 * autrijus is feeling approprisately ingyish
15:58 autrijus ah. sorry, that'd be S, and S05
15:58 Khisanth :)
15:58 Shillo Hmm, I think I found some interesting bug. examples/shuffle.t prints duplicates.
15:58 Shillo And it shouldn't ever, since it swaps elements in an array.
15:59 Khisanth has quit IRC ("Leaving")
15:59 autrijus shuffle.p6 is suddenly broken.
15:59 autrijus confirmed
16:02 autrijus fixing
16:05 autrijus while (1) { die 3 } is broken
16:05 autrijus fancy that!
16:05 Shillo but life.p6 and mandel.p6 do work. :)
16:05 autrijus cool :)
16:08 malaire if I make local changes to e.g. Prim.hs, how can I update it to current file (i.e. revert my local changes) using svn?
16:08 autrijus svn revert Prim.hs
16:08 obra hi
16:11 autrijus yo
16:12 obra how goes, autrijus?
16:12 autrijus fine. has a talk tomorrow
16:12 autrijus need to prepare slides
16:12 autrijus but is feeling ingyish
16:12 hcchien I guess I can just move t/06sub.t to t/op/subroutine.t directly.
16:12 autrijus hcchien: yup
16:12 DrHyde gentlefolks, i want to try playing with pugs, is there any more recent HOWTO-ish docs on perl6 than the synopses?
16:12 autrijus ingyish = want to do the slides in s5; part of materials were in emacs outlines; emacs outlines can be trivially converted to kwid; want to write the converter in pugs
16:12 obra next time perl5 autrijus is around, I've got an odd one for him. standalone httpd stopped working for file upload.
16:12 autrijus !
16:13 autrijus yow.
16:13 obra interestingly, it appears to no longer work when I go back to 3.4.0
16:13 autrijus but it worksforme.
16:13 obra which I know _did_ work
16:13 autrijus I mean, even now.
16:13 hcchien autrijus: but you don't use emacs!? :)
16:13 obra does 'make regression-noapache' work for you?
16:13 autrijus I am on... win32
16:13 PerlJam DrHyde: There are no HOWTO docs for perl6 :-)
16:13 autrijus obra: so it fails for you?
16:14 integral DrHyde: Do you fell like writing a HOWTO? ;-)
16:14 obra yes.
16:14 obra it appears that CGI.pm is trying to read more from enctype=multipart-form forms than there is
16:14 autrijus DrHyde: I know damian has many slides.
16:14 * obra is a sad, sad guy.
16:14 autrijus none of them are on the web, though.
16:14 autrijus obra: is it possible that your cgi.pm is old?
16:14 autrijus I wonder if I can convince damian to dump all his slides to me
16:14 obra It fails on two hosts. one with old and one with latest
16:15 autrijus and find helpful souls here to convert them to html/pod/kwid
16:15 PerlJam DrHyde: you could read the Apocalypses and then work your way through the Exegeses if you keep in mind that some of the syntax has changed.
16:15 DrHyde the apocalypses break my brane :-)
16:15 autrijus DrHyde: oh, and there is allison's update
16:15 autrijus http://www.lohutok.net/talks/p6update.pdf
16:15 autrijus which is good
16:16 autrijus if a bit too high-level
16:17 obra autrijus: what RT are you syncced to?
16:17 autrijus 3.4-REL
16:17 obra when you get spare time will you try make regression-noapache?
16:17 autrijus yes.
16:17 obra thanks
16:17 autrijus never tried that.
16:18 obra clkao also sees the failures with 3.4-REL
16:18 autrijus (never knew it existed :))
16:18 obra oh! it's the test suite against standalone httpd
16:18 autrijus sure, I grok that now
16:19 obra I spent about two days attempting to debug why image custom fields didn't work in RTFM.
16:19 obra When it turned out that I'd fixed the bug but that standalone_httpd was causing more issues
16:19 autrijus :-(
16:19 autrijus also I believe my file uploader was not in trunk
16:20 autrijus wonder if it bitrotted
16:20 autrijus and wonder if it fixes that
16:20 obra so. it's blocking in CGI.pm
16:20 obra CGI.pm is trying to read from STDIN when there is no more STDIN left
16:22 obra but. I must put this aside for now, so I can try to get through customer deliverables that are due right when I get back from .tw ;)
16:22 autrijus ok ;)
16:27 hcchien split t/0*.t into t/*/*  # done
16:27 autrijus wow!
16:27 autrijus hcchien++
16:27 hcchien just use svk mv to finish it. ha
16:27 autrijus you didn't fix MANIFEST? :)
16:28 autrijus (that's fine)
16:29 malaire In what file the operator precedence is currently defined in pugs? Prim.hs seems to have allmost everything, but I can't find anything about precedence.
16:30 autrijus Parser.hs currently has prec table.
16:30 autrijus the ultimate idea is to gen the table with builtins.pod
16:32 Juerd_ Uh oh
16:32 Juerd_ Significant documentation...
16:32 hcchien updated
16:32 Juerd_ That's almost worse than significant indentation ;)
16:33 Juerd_ Though I do like the idea
16:33 Khisanth has joined #perl6
16:33 autrijus Juerd_: builtins.pod will be inlined into Prim.hs, silly :)
16:33 Juerd_ You're building a filesystem in a file? :)
16:34 autrijus Inline::FileSystem mmmm
16:34 autrijus (already done on cpan)
16:34 dada is there a way to run a single test?
16:34 Juerd_ dada: Yes, copy and paste it.
16:35 dada mmm no, a single .t file I mean
16:35 Juerd_ pigs t/foo.t
16:35 Juerd_ eh
16:35 Juerd_ pugs :)
16:36 _metaperl has joined #perl6
16:36 mauke Can't locate Test.pm in @INC
16:36 dada Can't locate Test.pm in @INC
16:36 dada exactly :-)
16:37 dada can I set $PERL6LIB for this?
16:37 justatheory has joined #perl6
16:37 dada it seems so
16:38 dada way cool :-)
16:38 autrijus :)
16:38 Juerd_ Oh, Test.pm
16:38 Juerd_ I haven't done anything with pugs since the day before Test.pm was first used
16:39 dada I think I really need an __END__
16:40 dada =begin END, that is :-)
16:40 Juerd_ Yeah, congratulations, by the way
16:41 autrijus =begin END works, no? :)
16:43 ingy hola
16:43 dada autrijus: yes, it works
16:43 autrijus yo ingy-san
16:44 dada Juerd_: congratulations for what?
16:44 ingy what is new whilst I slept so well
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16:45 autrijus ingy: darren continues module work, which made 6pan all the more urgent
16:45 autrijus ingy: I'm pondering a kwid2s5.p6
16:46 dada you know what?
16:46 dada I really *HATE* $a = (1,2,3) being equal to $a = [1,2,3];
16:46 autrijus what you want it to do instead?
16:46 autrijus $a = 3?
16:46 autrijus (current p5)
16:46 ingy autrijus: s5?
16:46 dada $a = 1
16:46 Shillo has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:46 autrijus but it is 3 in p5!
16:46 rgs ($a) = (1,2,3)
16:46 dada but this is not p5 :-)
16:46 autrijus ingy: I think you'll like s5.
16:47 autrijus http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
16:47 rgs s5++
16:47 ingy autrijus: cool
16:47 autrijus rgs: I noticed you're a fellow addictionado
16:47 rgs yes
16:47 dada autrijus: it makes sense given that in p5 (a => 1, a => 2) gave (a => 2), but in p6 it gives (a => 1)
16:48 autrijus dada: oh? I don't see that mentioned
16:48 ingy autrijus: what makes 6pan urgent exactly?
16:48 dada autrijus: I can look it up if you don't trust my words :-)
16:48 autrijus ingy: real modules and real users :)
16:49 xerox css
16:49 xerox Whoops.
16:49 lumi In p5 it gives just 2
16:50 Shillo has joined #perl6
16:50 dada lumi: I meant something like %a = (a => 1, a => 2); gives $a{a} = 2;
16:50 lumi oh, k
16:50 dada or "(a => 2) wins", if you prefer
16:51 autrijus dada: reference in synopsis?
16:51 dada hold on
16:51 lumi I like (a => 2) wins actually
16:51 ingy autrijus: interestingly you misinterpreted me when I told you that modules should be hosted on the pugs svn server for now
16:51 ingy I didn't mean actually in the pugs tree
16:52 autrijus ahh. you just mean svn.openfoundry.org/?
16:52 ingy I was thinking more like svn.kwiki.org
16:52 autrijus exactly
16:52 ingy or openfoundry, yes
16:52 * autrijus squints and imagines openfoundry becomes 6pan
16:52 autrijus with nice CSSified RT UI
16:52 ingy but each author having a repos
16:52 autrijus and integrated per-author repos
16:52 autrijus mmmmm.
16:52 autrijus tempting.
16:52 ingy and then tying it together (for now) using svn:externals
16:53 autrijus or svk:merged
16:53 ingy :)
16:53 ingy better, yes
16:53 ingy but for at least just now, pugs/modules is ok.
16:53 autrijus sure.
16:53 ingy at least until yapc
16:54 autrijus of course.
16:54 ingy ok, breakfast&
16:54 autrijus when I mean "urgent" I mean "months"
16:54 ingy autrijus++
16:54 autrijus instead of "years" :)
16:55 hcchien sounds like the evil yapc!? :p
16:55 autrijus yeah, evil plans abound
16:56 Khisanth sounds like you are planning a lot for YAPC :)
16:56 autrijus we have two weeks :)
16:56 autrijus 3/20 ~ 4/4
16:56 hcchien ccCc
16:57 hcchien yaph. :p
16:57 autrijus and the hacker/speaker team is full of crazy folks.
16:57 autrijus I can't wait to meet miyagawa in person :)
16:58 Khisanth the entire Perl community is full of crazy folks!
16:58 autrijus true, but the yapc::taipei concentration has some of the crazier ones :)
16:58 autrijus but indeed.
17:01 hcchien I just worry about that the speakers will change their topic since they may discuss the crazy ideas from 3/20. :p
17:02 saorge has joined #perl6
17:03 autrijus hcchien: unplanned talks is the joy of YAPCs :)
17:03 autrijus (but the nightmare of organizers)
17:06 crysflam1 is now known as crysflame
17:06 crysflame heh
17:06 crysflame "i'm in the conference hall using the wireless to write the slides for my talk"
17:06 crysflame i remember ingy developing an ascii slides representation
17:06 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:07 autrijus ingy is famous for writing the slide system for his slide
17:07 autrijus on the airplane
17:07 autrijus and change his talk to talk about the slide system
17:07 crysflame !
17:07 crysflame hahahaha
17:07 _metaperl has joined #perl6
17:07 autrijus and go straight on stage on arrival
17:07 autrijus without any pause
17:07 autrijus and promptly falls to sleep due to jet lag after the talk.
17:08 crysflame on stage?
17:08 autrijus no :)
17:08 crysflame that'd be a talk
17:08 Steve_p In bar :)
17:08 crysflame "defeating insomnia with perl"
17:08 crysflame "demonstration slide"
17:08 crysflame zzzzzz
17:08 hcchien autrijus: that's why we don't have the processing copy this year. :p
17:09 autrijus "Last year i came to Taipei to talk about Kwiki, but Kwiki was not ready. So I talked about Spiffy Spoon and Spork. This year Kwiki is ready, so I will talk about it."
17:09 hcchien and the schedule is updated for 3 times. ha
17:09 autrijus hcchien: wahaha
17:09 vladtz has joined #perl6
17:09 autrijus hcchien: so no proceedings this time?
17:09 autrijus I thought we can JIT it on the night before conference
17:10 hcchien hehe
17:14 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:14 _metaperl is now known as metaperl
17:24 hlafarge has joined #perl6
17:27 ninereasons has joined #perl6
17:27 Shillo Later, folks!
17:28 theorbtwo Adios, Shillos.
17:28 Shillo has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:30 autrijus scw: you broke shuffle :-(
17:30 autrijus scw: you were matching against VInt
17:30 autrijus but you should've vCast'ed to VInt instead.
17:30 autrijus otherwise VNum 2.0 can't be a valid index.
17:30 autrijus shillo++
17:33 autrijus fixed; r575
17:34 autrijus shuffle now shuffles
17:35 xerox has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:36 hllu has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:37 xerox has joined #perl6
17:42 autrijus the more I look at the new banner the happier I am
17:42 autrijus stevan++
17:42 wolverian there's a shuffle?
17:42 autrijus examples/shuffle.p6
17:43 wolverian ah.
17:43 autrijus fisher-yates shuffle, I think it's called
17:43 wolverian I wish svk worked here.
17:43 autrijus it does not?
17:43 wolverian the ubuntu perl doesn't apparently have weakrefs
17:44 autrijus eww.
17:44 autrijus but I remember installing from universe
17:44 autrijus and svk did work on ubuntu then
17:44 autrijus that involves replacing perl with debian perl
17:44 autrijus and switch to unstable
17:45 wolverian I am running hoary. but using debian packages isn't a solution I want to use
17:45 autrijus yeah, I understand fully
17:45 obra um.
17:45 Qiang_ has joined #perl6
17:45 wolverian I wonder if I should ask this on ubuntu-devel or ubuntu-users
17:45 obra I'm using ubuntu core perland svk is fine
17:45 wolverian obra: really? hmmmm. I'll try again, then.
17:45 autrijus obra: hoary too?
17:46 obra yes, hoary
17:46 crysflame hoary++
17:46 obra what perl do you have, wolverian?
17:46 wolverian obra: the one that comes with ubuntu! :)
17:47 obra what version
17:47 wolverian I could nopaste my perl -V
17:47 wolverian This is perl, v5.8.4 built for i386-linux-thread-multi
17:47 obra dpkg -l |grep perl-base
17:47 wolverian 5.8.4-6
17:47 autrijus I find it hard to believe that a perl can have no weakrefs.
17:47 obra same here
17:47 autrijus I mean, even by choice.
17:48 obra perhaps you need a newer Scalar::Util?
17:48 autrijus unless you have installed a pureperl Scalar::Util.
17:48 theorbtwo wolverian, you wouldn't mean, perchance, that it lacks Scalar::Util?
17:48 * autrijus smiles!
17:48 theorbtwo Heh.
17:48 wolverian that might be it. svk should depend on it then, though. and the error does _not_ say that.
17:48 obra *5*
17:48 autrijus *15*
17:48 obra *hah*
17:48 autrijus wolverian: S::U is core.
17:49 wolverian oh, right.
17:49 theorbtwo What /does/ the error say?
17:49 wolverian I have 1.14 of S::U
17:49 autrijus wolverian: try reinstall it.
17:49 wolverian wolverian@chronoa:~$ svk
17:49 wolverian Weak references are not implemented in the version of perl at /usr/share/perl5/PerlIO/via/dynamic.pm line 61
17:49 autrijus alternatively, install that by hand.
17:49 wolverian ..and a lot of BEGIN failed errors after that
17:49 autrijus right, that means you have a bad S::U
17:49 wolverian hrm.
17:49 autrijus perhaps installed after core perl is installed.
17:49 wolverian I'll check in cpanp.
17:50 Qiang has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
17:51 wolverian oh well, reinstalling perl and perl-base
17:51 obra that may not help
17:52 autrijus that will not help.
17:52 theorbtwo That will probably not help.
17:52 autrijus ...
17:52 wolverian I GOT IT ALREADY, THANKS.
17:52 wolverian :|
17:52 autrijus *15*
17:52 wolverian okay, do I need to get rid of the wrong version of S::U manually then? (from cpanp, that is)
17:52 wolverian yeah, that didn't help.
17:52 autrijus either that, or reinstall S::U with UNINST=1
17:52 crysflame hi, wolverian
17:52 wolverian hello, crysflame
17:52 autrijus you can also uninstall S::U in cpanp right.
17:53 wolverian bah, cpanp can't uninstall it.
17:53 autrijus and then install again.
17:53 clkao hm. perlio::via::dynamic should require newer S::U ?
17:53 wolverian [ERROR] Could not get 'files' for 'Scalar::Util':
17:53 autrijus but UNINST=1 is the recommended way.
17:53 autrijus uh oh.
17:53 autrijus z Scalar::Util
17:53 autrijus perl Makefile.PL
17:53 autrijus make install UNINST=1
17:53 wolverian doing.
17:53 theorbtwo It's not a matter of new or old Scalar::Util, I think.
17:53 autrijus cpanplus++ # my first real project
17:53 autrijus real cpan project, that is.
17:54 wolverian theorbtwo: what, then?
17:54 mandarin has joined #perl6
17:54 autrijus hi mandarin :)
17:54 wolverian hmm. what does this mean:
17:54 wolverian Unlinking /usr/share/perl/5.8/Scalar/Util.pm (shadowing?)
17:54 clkao it means it's doing the right th9ing
17:55 wolverian yeah, I figured that.
17:55 wolverian this reminds me that there was no XS version of List::Util installed initially with ubuntu, I think.
17:55 wolverian that was strange.
17:55 clkao if you can figure out, let me know what additiona S::U requirement i should add to perlio::via::dynamic
17:55 crysflame wolverian: that's really weird
17:56 wolverian clkao: I have no idea what the problem was.
17:56 wolverian (svk works now.)
17:56 wolverian crysflame: yes. it is.
17:56 autrijus yay, auto.t works
17:56 autrijus lvalue inside array works!
17:56 wolverian hmm 47 failed tests.
17:56 autrijus multidim within reach now
17:56 autrijus wolverian: expected.
17:57 autrijus shower, brb
17:57 jdv79 any idea when OO like things will be possible?
17:57 crysflame wolverian: how can List::Util even *work* without XS?
17:57 * crysflame twitches
17:57 crysflame distro bug
17:58 wolverian crysflame: the perl version works fine. at least first() worked. I remember looking at the code and going "huh? I thought this was an XS module"
17:58 theorbtwo Congrats, aut!
17:59 theorbtwo The answer is that most of Scalar::Util can just fallback on perl code.  Slower, but most places doesn't loose functionality.
17:59 theorbtwo Er, most functionality isn't lost.
18:00 Qiang_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:00 wolverian so, what was my problem? :)
18:02 crysflame wow
18:02 crysflame weakref is definitely XS requiring though
18:03 theorbtwo You were trying to use some of the functionality that /was/ lost, and for some reason, the perl your running doesn't have a XS Scalar::Util, or isn't seeing it.
18:03 autrijus jdv79: 6.28.
18:03 sclebo05 has joined #perl6
18:03 wolverian ah, so that's the problem.
18:03 autrijus jdv79: I think it is fair to assume 1-2 months per milestone.
18:03 autrijus jdv79: so, I think maybe 2-3 months from now before we have robust OO
18:04 autrijus jdv79: but all these can change.
18:06 malaire hmm.. 1-2 months per milestone = 6-12 months until "6.283185: Port Pugs to Perl 6, if needed." ... ;)
18:07 autrijus that is the plan.
18:08 autrijus see my imaginary timeline :)
18:08 autrijus i.e. finish the perl6 bootstrapping around early 2006
18:10 obra autrijus: where's your milestones doc?
18:10 obra or is this handwavey?
18:10 autrijus obra: PA01!
18:11 autrijus "Do you have a roadmap for Pugs development?"
18:11 * autrijus doesn't do handwavy things :)
18:11 obra         /me goes back to reread
18:12 xerox Can I ask why are you making an Haskell implementation of perl6?
18:12 PerlJam xerox: you may ask.  :-)
18:12 autrijus xerox: PA01. :) also see interview.
18:12 xerox s/Can I ask// :D
18:13 autrijus PA01, "Why did you choose Haskell?"
18:13 autrijus interview is http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/03/03/pugs_interview.html
18:13 autrijus PA01 is "Overview" from pugscode.org.
18:13 * autrijus feels clever about writing a FAQ
18:13 obra huh. somehow I missed that section in PA01.
18:13 autrijus obra: aw.
18:14 PerlJam autrijus: I don't remember the exact answer to that question, but in my head it goes something like "because I realized that I could seem insanely productive by utilizing already existing features of haskell to mimic perl6 features"  ;-)
18:14 autrijus PerlJam: exactly!
18:14 metaperl_ so should only the code or also the slides from my Perl Mongers presentation be added to pugs distro? Here is the slide presentation: http://www.hcoop.net/~terry/perl/talks/p6-junctions/
18:14 metaperl_ the one() example is poor
18:15 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
18:15 autrijus code is already examples/junctions/ no?
18:15 autrijus if not, there is where they belong
18:15 metaperl_ well, not completely
18:15 autrijus I'd be happy if you put a URL to your talk to examples/junctions/README
18:15 metaperl_ I thought up several in the last few days
18:15 autrijus or something like that.
18:15 metaperl_ ok
18:15 autrijus metaperl++
18:15 autrijus metaperl++
18:15 metaperl_ and I'll add the new code samples
18:15 metaperl_ :)
18:15 autrijus metaperl++ # can't ++ you enough
18:16 * metaperl_ blushes
18:16 autrijus PerlJam: but yeah, it's all about choosing the right tools.
18:16 autrijus that's what tools are supposed to do, anyway; they exist to make us insanely productive
18:17 autrijus or rather, make us productive and stay (almost) sane
18:17 PerlJam autrijus: well, for me, it's now about convincing the "official" perl6 compiler people that they should put a wee bit of effort into learning haskell and then use that knowledge to make pugs the bootstrap by which we get a real perl6 :)
18:17 autrijus PerlJam: all of them are learning haskell :)
18:17 autrijus so :)
18:18 metaperl_ Haskell has a _ton_ of list functionality
18:18 autrijus metaperl_: because haskell is merely super-sugared lazy lisp.
18:18 PerlJam metaperl_: That's probably because of its FP ancestry
18:18 obra I'm pretty sure that pge and pugs are going to continue to help each other.
18:18 xerox Now I see :D
18:18 malaire btw, is there a way to get the Val out of Eval Val ? e.g. I have (op2Numeric (+) (VInt 2) (VInt 3)) - and I want to get equivalent of (VInt 5) out of that.
18:18 autrijus I'm pretty sure that pge and pugs will merge at some point :)
18:18 PerlJam autrijus: me too :)
18:19 autrijus malaire: well, you eval it.
18:19 autrijus result <- action
18:19 autrijus that's all.
18:19 autrijus result is Val, action is Eval Val.
18:19 autrijus (that's what the "Eval Monad" means.)
18:19 malaire for some reason that didn't seem to work, but I'll try again...
18:20 * obra just read "evil monad"
18:20 PerlJam obra: heh!
18:20 crysflame that's the second time that's happened
18:20 autrijus I'm sure it will happen many time more.
18:20 crysflame autrijus said "probably true" when i said it the first time, or something similar
18:20 dada autrijus: I have a problem
18:20 crysflame i wonder how many others have
18:20 autrijus dada: yes?
18:21 dada context is broken in pugs
18:21 PerlJam monads still make me uncomfortable.  I think I understand, but their apparent simplicity has me worried that I'm missing something.
18:21 dada my($a) = (1,2,3); say $a; # says 123, it should say 1
18:21 PerlJam I'm sure perl6 will make me feel that way at some point
18:21 autrijus dada: yes because the () is not yet significant.
18:21 PerlJam :-)
18:21 autrijus PerlJam: yup.
18:21 dada autrijus: ok. most of my tests are failing for this reason :-)
18:22 wolverian metaperl_: what is List::Util::filter?
18:22 wolverian (re: slide3)
18:22 PerlJam dada: todo them and they won't fail :)  
18:22 autrijus dada: good. let them fail!
18:22 PerlJam dada: or better, implement ()  :)
18:22 autrijus PerlJam: I argue it's misimplementation not unimplemented
18:22 autrijus so let them fail!
18:22 metaperl_ oh, maybe Language::Functional::filter
18:23 metaperl_ maybe List::Util::first() is what I meant
18:23 ingy so far I find A Gentle Introduction to Haskell to be the best tutorial to get you up to speed
18:23 metaperl_ I just moved the slides somewhere permanennt
18:23 ingy apropos of nothing ^^
18:23 autrijus ingy: many people found that too hard.
18:23 metaperl_ ingy, the Algorithms Book is good if you dont like that dry style
18:23 ingy I find it just hard enough
18:23 autrijus ingy: i.e. it assumes you have thought Real Hard about programming before
18:23 autrijus ...which you did, of course.
18:23 metaperl_ by Rabhi and Lapalme... this is a good book. I can't put it down
18:23 wolverian metaperl_: doesn't any() return a list of matches, though?
18:23 autrijus yes. I totally agree.
18:23 autrijus lukhnos still has my copy.
18:24 wolverian metaperl_: I mean, the overloaded comparison against any()
18:24 metaperl_ Which any?
18:24 metaperl_ Language::Functional::any?
18:24 metaperl_ Q::S::any?
18:24 wolverian no, the Perl6 one.
18:24 ingy I just want to know the facts... but with a little explanation
18:24 ingy Gentle is really good that way
18:24 PerlJam wolverian: any() will never get you a list unless you collapse() it.
18:25 wolverian PerlJam: 'any(...) < $limit' will not return a list?
18:25 dada I'm (slowly) reading YAHT
18:25 PerlJam any, all, one, and none all give you a scalar (junction)
18:25 ingy plus Gentle is in html which helps immensely
18:26 ingy Two Dozen is really bad as it seems to be written by a lisper who uses totally different terminology
18:26 PerlJam wolverian: any($a,$b,$c) < $limit will give you a junction of   any($a < $limit, $b < $limit, $c < $limit)
18:26 PerlJam which is a scalar value
18:26 autrijus ingy: true... it is written as a companion of the Haskell Report by the same people
18:27 dada ingy: http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/ <-- YAHT
18:27 wolverian PerlJam: hm. that looks odd to me. doesn't that mean that any() only gets booleans?
18:27 xerox I suggest haskell-tutorial instead of YAHT.
18:27 PerlJam no
18:27 dada I think YAHT is more tailored for people who come from an imperative language
18:28 xerox (You can find it on haskell.org learning page)
18:28 dada xerox: isn't that one the Gentle?
18:28 xerox dada, it is not.
18:28 PerlJam wolverian: you threaded over a boolean operator, so you get a junction of booleans.
18:28 PerlJam wolverian: had you threaded over some other operator, you wouldn't necessarily get a junction of booleans.
18:28 xerox http://www.haskell.org/learning.html ftp://ftp.geoinfo.tuwien.ac.at/navratil/HaskellTutorial.pdf
18:29 jdv79 autrijus, cool
18:29 dada xerox: seen, thanks
18:29 wolverian PerlJam: okay, thanks.
18:30 ingy autrijus: yeah... The Report is a little too dry but will be very nice after I finish Gentle
18:30 PerlJam wolverian: Just have a look at the example in S09 ... http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S09.html  search for "camel"
18:31 wolverian PerlJam: I'm not sure I see why 'any(...) < $limit' would be autothreaded
18:32 autrijus because < is just a function call
18:32 wolverian right.
18:32 autrijus and junctions as function arguments autothreaded
18:32 wolverian okay, so you can't use any() for this. clear enough. :)
18:32 ingy I just thought of something fun...
18:32 PerlJam wolverian: what is "this" exactly?
18:33 PerlJam wolverian: you want to know which components of the junction are < $limit?
18:33 wolverian PerlJam: the amount of them, actually.
18:33 PerlJam $how_many = any(@stuff).collapse.grep:{$_ < $limit};   #  :-)
18:34 ingy When `kwid --to_html` is done I will adapt it into the pugs Kwiki, so we can write perl6 docs in the kwiki
18:34 wolverian hah. :)=
18:34 autrijus ingy: woot
18:34 wolverian eeks. s/=//
18:34 autrijus ok, mval in assignments is Officially There.
18:34 autrijus committing.
18:35 wolverian PerlJam: does the adverbial block get $_ in @_[0] there?
18:35 wolverian (in addition to $_)
18:35 wolverian PerlJam: just wondering if I can do .grep:{ $^person < $age }
18:35 wolverian or some such.
18:35 PerlJam yes, you can.
18:36 wolverian yay. :)
18:36 PerlJam I'd guess that pugs doesn't quite grok $^foo though
18:36 wolverian (I don't actually like writing the $_ at all, but I guess you can't help it really here..)
18:36 autrijus r577:
18:36 autrijus Failed 2/79 test scripts, 97.47% okay. 20/1395 subtests failed, 98.57% okay.
18:37 autrijus finally no ridiculous numbers like "184.99% failed" :)
18:37 PerlJam I seem to recall seeing that pugs parsed $^foo, but didn't do anything special to make it mean anything
18:37 autrijus hmm? no it Just Works.
18:37 autrijus $^x worked in the first week.
18:37 PerlJam so much for my memory ;)
18:41 * autrijus starts to write journal...
18:41 autrijus "Day 38: And banner bright with living flame."
18:41 PerlJam wolverian: btw, did you notice that junctions weren't needed at all in my $how_many example?
18:42 wolverian PerlJam: yes, hence my smiley.
18:42 autrijus it's hard to show Silmarils in ASCII Art, though
18:42 PerlJam okay, just checking.  It's hard to tell sometimes on IRC
18:42 wolverian PerlJam: I just wondered if there was a more, um, natural method of doing it without grep. I guess I just dislike referencing to the individual elements directly
18:42 wolverian PerlJam: with grep, I have to write $_ or $^foo
18:44 PerlJam wolverian: you want PDL's  $minors = where($age < 18);  ?
18:44 autrijus .grep(&prefix:{'<'}.assuming(:y => $age))
18:44 autrijus ;)
18:44 PerlJam heh
18:44 wolverian PerlJam: I don't see what where() operators on there, but I think yes.
18:44 wolverian autrijus: thanks! :)
18:45 autrijus that is idiomatic haskell...
18:45 autrijus except in haskell you write
18:45 autrijus filter (< age)
18:45 autrijus instead.
18:45 autrijus what conciseness.
18:45 PerlJam autrijus: that is one syntax I wish perl had
18:45 autrijus *nod*
18:45 autrijus I wish that too.
18:46 dada svn: Commit failed (details follow):
18:46 dada svn: MKACTIVITY of '/perl6/!svn/act/e381cb67-1217-1c48-bace-a0fdd412c2cd': 400 B
18:46 dada ad Request (http://svn.perl.org)
18:46 dada buuuuh
18:46 autrijus uh. you should commit to svn.openfoundry.org
18:46 dada mmm?
18:47 dada how do I?
18:47 autrijus well....
18:47 PerlJam dada: first you have to co a copy of pugs from svn.openfoundry.org :)
18:47 dada fresh checkout from there?
18:47 autrijus svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
18:47 autrijus and copy your stuff there.
18:47 dada heh
18:47 autrijus I'm sorry.
18:47 dada no problem :-)
18:47 autrijus committer needs to track openfoundry, not svn.perl.org
18:48 autrijus I cannot grant svn.perl.org committer :)
18:49 dada where am I supposed to put my username anyway?
18:49 PerlJam Ask Robrt nicely and I'm sure you can get the ability to grant committer access to the pugs portion of svn.perl.org
18:50 autrijus dada: just ci to openfoundry
18:50 autrijus it will ask for your username/passwd.
18:50 autrijus PerlJam: problem being, I like openfoundry; it's easy to send off invitation mails & stuff.
18:50 autrijus that system is nice.
18:50 autrijus it also helps that it's my code :)
18:50 PerlJam autrijus: except for the 36 hours of downtime?
18:50 autrijus that needs improvement, truly.
18:51 dada autrijus: I didn't understand
18:51 PerlJam anyway ...
18:51 * PerlJam wanders off to code some perl (5)
18:51 theorbtwo I also don't like the license agreement being /only/ in zh-tw, but don't care hugely much.
18:51 dada ahhhhh ok ci == commit :-)
18:51 theorbtwo (That was -tw, wasn't it?)
18:51 autrijus theorbtwo: I _will_ fix that.
18:51 theorbtwo I thought that was checkin?
18:51 autrijus yeah, -tw is right.
18:51 autrijus ci is commit.
18:52 dada ouch
18:52 dada same 400 Bad Request
18:52 autrijus weird. did you put your openfoundry userid/passwd?
18:52 dada no, it bombs right away
18:53 autrijus !. try #subversion of #svk :-/
18:53 autrijus that should not happen.
18:53 dada may be a proxy issue?
18:53 autrijus that is possible.
18:53 Juerd_ dada: With the beginning of the rest of your life
18:54 dada Juerd_: huh?
18:54 Juerd_ Congrats.
18:54 Juerd_ This is an important mile stone without which you'd be dead.
18:54 dada d'oh :-)
18:56 dada another mile stone successfully reached! update the GANTT!
18:56 * autrijus wonders what you're talking about.
18:57 dada [17:40] <Juerd_> Yeah, congratulations, by the way
18:57 dada an action-at-a-distance, that is
18:58 * autrijus is even more confused. but never mind
18:58 dada :-)
18:58 Juerd_ autrijus: Congrats to you to too
18:59 autrijus Juerd_: you too :)
18:59 Juerd_ Thanks!
18:59 * dada congrats everybody
18:59 Juerd_ And today is a very special day indeed.
19:00 crysflame congrats for some unknown reason
19:00 Juerd_ Historically unique
19:00 Juerd_ Today will never come back.
19:00 Juerd_ So enjoy it.
19:01 autrijus journal done. sleep &
19:01 autrijus have fun!
19:01 Juerd_ Bye
19:01 Juerd_ Are you sure you want to sleep on this special day?
19:01 Juerd_ ;)
19:01 wolverian _WHAT_ is up with this FFII RSS feed sending the same stuff again and again to me.
19:01 autrijus Juerd_: pretty sure :)
19:01 Juerd_ autrijus: Okay - if that's your way of celebrating :P
19:01 autrijus yup!
19:02 Juerd_ autrijus: Good night and stop counting sheep when you reach Inf
19:02 autrijus I start from Inf.
19:02 Juerd_ And count backwards?  :)
19:02 dada g'night autrijus
19:03 crysflame wolverian: sounds like they don't have a <guid> element
19:04 autrijus Juerd_: I count toward NaN.
19:04 autrijus zzz &
19:04 Juerd_ autrijus: Good luck
19:04 Juerd_ :)
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19:39 stevan_ ingy?
19:40 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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20:14 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
20:15 nothingmuch morning
20:15 stevan_ morning nothingmuch
20:15 nothingmuch hi ho
20:16 * nothingmuch is trying to learn dvorak again
20:16 nothingmuch (switching layout)
20:16 nothingmuch beh
20:18 nothingmuch if i can get this going i will rewacrd myself with a new keyboard
20:18 nothingmuch eek
20:18 nothingmuch reward
20:18 nothingmuch this is pretty hard
20:20 nothingmuch so how are those lazy trees coming along, stevan_
20:20 nothingmuch damn, i can't find the question mark
20:21 stevan_ LOL
20:21 stevan_ nothingmuch: work-work has kept me busy today
20:21 nothingmuch ah
20:21 nothingmuch ?
20:21 stevan_ nothingmuch to report :)
20:21 nothingmuch heh
20:21 nothingmuch i also got caught up
20:23 * nothingmuch is typing so slowly he actually notices the spellchecking
20:30 * nothingmuch goes to learn some haskell
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21:01 ingy stevan_?
21:06 ingy stevan_: I'm leaving for lunch. just address any questions to me here and I'll see it when I return
21:22 dada has quit IRC ("kein bestandteil zu sein")
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23:07 ingy stevan_: ping
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