Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:09 crysflame hi ingy
00:14 afbach has joined #perl6
00:42 Limbic_Region has left
00:55 ingy hi crysflame
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01:41 mugwump can any functions in pugs return lvalues?
01:55 autrijus technically yes, practically "is rw" trait is not yet parsed.
01:56 mugwump I was just adding a test for the junction example in S09
01:56 autrijus it just need to set the env isLValue bit on.
01:56 mugwump when I realised that substr hasn't been implemented yet :)
01:56 autrijus sure, feel free to test it
01:56 autrijus it's a todo_ test thought :)
01:56 autrijus it's not a misimplemented feature, it's just unimplemented
01:58 * autrijus reading (google cache of): http://kw.pm.org/talks/2004-10-24-Perl6talk.ppt
01:58 autrijus (Perl 6 is) Ready to ship in { (localtime)[5] + 1902; }.
01:59 autrijus that slide is quite helpful.
02:03 cls_bsd autrijus++
02:03 autrijus :))
02:05 autrijus cls_bsd: if you're looking for src/ job
02:05 autrijus I just committed a XXX in Eval.hs line 325
02:05 autrijus it deals with the fact that
02:05 cls_bsd okk
02:05 autrijus @a[1] = func(); # scalar context
02:06 autrijus @a[1,2] = func(); # list context
02:06 autrijus currently both passes list context to func()
02:06 autrijus what needs to happen is to write a "cxtFromExp"
02:06 autrijus of type:
02:06 autrijus Exp -> String
02:06 autrijus and replace ths "List" in line 327 with "cxtFromExp exp"
02:07 autrijus the way to write the cxtFromExp function is to pattern match
02:07 autrijus cxtFromExp (Syn "," _) = "List"
02:07 cls_bsd hmm
02:07 autrijus cxtFromExp (Var ('$':_)) = "Scalar"
02:07 autrijus cxtFromExp (Var _) = "List"
02:07 autrijus etc. feel free to finish the rest :)
02:08 * cls_bsd go to read haskell doc
02:10 autrijus YAHT may help. some people prefer http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/
02:11 cls_bsd great, this tutorial
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02:30 autrijus bbiab &
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02:49 ingy hola
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02:51 mugwump hi ingy
02:53 hcchien ingy: would you mind to send me your flight schedule again. :p
02:54 mugwump ./pugs -e 'say ["c","a"].join("")'
02:54 mugwump ac
02:54 mugwump :-/
02:55 mugwump ah, it's todo, nevermind
02:56 pjcj svk ci
02:56 pjcj oops
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02:58 stevan_ howdy ingy
02:58 stevan_ I had a kwid question earlier, but I figured it out :)
03:03 mugwump just how *do* you test that two junctions are the same, anyway?  :)
03:03 mugwump if ($j == $k)  # doh!  :)
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03:10 mugwump I just did a `svk push', but got ` t/03operator.t - skipped'
03:11 hcchien do you svk pull before?
03:11 hcchien t/03*.t doesn't exist anymore. :)
03:11 mugwump oh, that'd do it :-}
03:11 mugwump I was naively using `svk update'
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03:12 mugwump and `svk sync -a'
03:12 hcchien pull may be your friend. :)
03:12 hcchien up; sy; and you have to do the 'sm'
03:14 autrijus just "svk pull" ;)
03:17 mugwump where do you think I should put the junction tests... t/op?
03:18 mugwump t/voodoo perhaps
03:18 autrijus heh heh
03:18 autrijus t/junction/
03:29 hcchien if the value is assigned as undef. what should we expect when try to print it?
03:29 autrijus empty string
03:34 crysflame is there a function junction
03:34 crysflame HA HA
03:35 autrijus :D
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03:41 hcchien "for my $foo (@bar)" doesn't work?
03:42 autrijus for @bar -> $foo { ... }
03:42 autrijus that way reads better
03:42 autrijus for (@bar) -> $foo { ... } # this works too
03:42 autrijus for @bar { $^foo ... } # too
03:43 hcchien or for ($foo | @bar) ? :p
03:43 autrijus bwahaha
03:43 crysflame heh
03:43 autrijus [ say $foo | $foo <- @bar, $foo > 3]
03:43 crysflame hcchien++
03:44 crysflame autrijus: is that print grep { $foo > 3 } @bar?
03:44 autrijus @bar.grep:{$_ > 3}.map:{say $_}
03:45 crysflame let me rephrase
03:45 crysflame what does what you said do? [ say ..
03:45 crysflame say every $foo that is > 3, using @bar as a source?
03:46 autrijus yup.
03:46 autrijus except say is invoked many times
03:46 crysflame right
03:46 autrijus instead of being passed a list
03:46 crysflame so map { print } grep { $_ > 3 } @bar in perl5
03:46 crysflame neatr
03:47 hcchien is pugs always 'use strict' now? :)
03:47 autrijus perl6 is always use strict by default.
03:47 autrijus but "perl6 -e" may relax it.
03:47 autrijus that is not currently implemented in pugs. tests welcome
04:02 autrijus reboot, bbiab &
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04:21 metaperl nnunley are you in England working for fotango or in America?
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04:22 mugwump if he's in England he won't be up now ;)
04:22 nnunley metaperl:  I'll be working for fotango in the UK come monday.  But currently in America.
04:22 metaperl why not? they have acid house parties all night :)
04:22 * nnunley grins.
04:22 crysflame fotango :)
04:23 autrijus really. :)
04:23 autrijus clkao: hope you come back alive :D
04:23 * nnunley nods.
04:23 nnunley clkao and I will be in the flesh coworkers in about a month.
04:24 autrijus mmm acid-induced software
04:24 nnunley Could be interesting.  Perhaps a little hard to debug.
04:25 autrijus yeah, you'll keep seeing grid bugs.
04:25 nnunley Heh.  Speaking of that... anyone play darwinia, yet?
04:25 * clkao yawns
04:27 * nnunley will be heading to bed shortly.  "Held a going away salon/scotch tasting..."
04:27 nnunley Just checking in to see if anything interesting is happening.
04:28 autrijus ah. lots actually.
04:28 autrijus #perlchina is pushing pugs to parse utf8 literals.
04:30 autrijus I'm preparing a "It's a wonderful hacking day" slide, due ~3 hours
04:30 autrijus which means I should probably deIRC and Work
04:34 metaperl nnunley, you have played darwinia? the graphics look blocky
04:35 autrijus bbiab &
04:35 metaperl i'm d/l'ing the demo now
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05:07 scw autrijus: in fact, I noticed the problem on VInt on the way home that day, but totally forgot to fix it, sorry
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05:48 obra heya david
05:50 * mugwump puts some finishing touches on a *working* junction-based sendmoremoney.p6
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06:40 * mugwump sighs at just how long finishing touches can take sometimes
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07:06 mugwump send+more=money is now junctionally functional!
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07:08 crysflame heh
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07:31 ingy perlbot: seen Schwern?
07:32 ingy hola amigos
07:33 Khisanth perlbot does not have that capability :/
07:35 ingy I forgot
07:45 crysflame i do
07:45 ingy ?
07:45 crysflame not anywhere in my history have i seen schwern mentioned here
07:46 ingy schwern has definitely been on the channel
07:47 crysflame weak history it is then
07:51 Khisanth well there is always seenserv
08:02 autrijus mugwump++
08:02 autrijus mugwump++
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08:02 autrijus going to the talk &
08:03 autrijus I still had not done my slides!
08:03 clkao have fun
08:03 * autrijus needs to pull an ingy
08:03 ingy hahaha
08:03 ingy pull my finger
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10:16 nothingmuch good morning
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10:31 dada hola
10:34 autrijus the talk is about to begin
10:34 autrijus wish me luck!
10:34 * autrijus hopes to lure more pugs developers
10:35 * rgs sends good waves to autrijus
10:36 larsen in *%$ of the whale!
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10:57 malaire Hello, is here anyone who could check my patch about hyperops? Whether it's ok or not?
10:57 malaire (http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.compiler/292)
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14:14 nnunley mugwump:  Sweet, re the working send+more=money
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15:00 malaire GHC 6.4 has been released today...
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15:14 DrHyde maybe it will compile on my box then, cos 6.2 sure as hell doesn't
15:15 rgs bootstrapping is not easy
15:15 rgs can you bootstrap 6.4 with 6.2 ?
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15:47 ingy hola
15:47 ingy autrijus: how was your talk?
15:50 dada is the talk finished yet? :-)
15:51 ingy dunno, I hope so
15:51 ingy I mean a 5 hour talk with no preparation would be... interesting
15:51 larsen " 11:39 < autrijus> the talk is about to begin "
15:51 larsen and now it's 16.56 here
15:51 larsen ah. 5 hours
15:51 larsen I didn't know that
15:52 ingy ?
15:52 dada oh, maybe he's racing for the World's Longest Talk
15:52 ingy I seriously doubt the talk was more than an hour or two
15:54 larsen I thought you were talking about some form of extended tutorial
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16:00 malaire pugs gets quite many warnings with GHC 6.4, but seems to work OK.
16:00 malaire (same 2 test scripts failing)
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16:08 nothingmuch could someone please clarify some haskell stuff?
16:09 nothingmuch err, maybe i should go to #haskell instead ;-)
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16:10 ingy nothingmuch: yeah, don't interupt us here! We're all trying to sleep!
16:10 nothingmuch beh
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16:10 ingy ;)
16:11 hcchien ingy: did you see my message here?
16:11 ingy hcchien: you want my itinerary?
16:12 hcchien ingy: yes.
16:12 ingy hcchien: so you can pick me up from the airport?
16:13 * nothingmuch wants to be around airports
16:13 hcchien ingy: I don't have car. :/
16:14 ingy hcchien: what do you need my info for?
16:14 hcchien ingy: when will arrive and leave.
16:16 ingy hcchien: I know, but why do you want to know? :)
16:17 hcchien ingy: good question, I may have to make sure you don't lose. :p
16:18 ingy ?
16:18 ingy anyway I arrive March 22nd at 07:50
16:18 Lemmih has joined #perl6
16:18 ingy and I leave April 5th 16:20
16:19 hcchien :)
16:19 ingy hcchien: where do I go, when I arrive?
16:20 hcchien ingy: we will pick you up when you arrive Taipei.
16:20 ingy wow! thanks!
16:21 obra  hi
16:21 Perla has joined #perl6
16:21 Perla somebody's here?
16:21 hcchien it's what we should do. :)
16:22 ingy hcchien: the evaair info is very unclear, but I assume if I am leaving Seattle at 02:55 on March 22 and landing at 07:50, then it is still March 22nd, right?
16:22 ingy obra: confirm
16:23 Perla has left
16:23 ingy and if I leave Taipei on April 5 at 18:20 and arrive in Seattle at 14:00 it is then April 6
16:24 ingy hcchien: note I leave Taipei on April 6 at 18:20 (not 16:20)
16:24 hcchien I think it is 3/23 07:50 in Taipei
16:25 obra TPE->SEA, you get in before you leave
16:25 ingy hcchien: but I am flying west... hmmm, I cross international date line?
16:25 obra SEA->TPE, you lose a day
16:25 obra yes
16:25 ingy I see
16:25 marcusT has quit IRC ("have a nice weekend")
16:26 ingy so hcchien, it looks like I arrive on 07:50 March 23rd :(
16:26 hcchien ingy: I think so. :)
16:27 ingy less days to write talk and party
16:27 ingy hcchien: at least you do not bug me for my materials this year :P
16:28 * obra arrives TPE at 0600 on 3/20
16:28 ingy at YAPC::Taipei all talks are written JIT
16:28 ingy obra gets *3* days on me, no fair
16:28 hcchien ingy: yes. so I won't have processings this year. :p
16:28 ingy this is a conspiracy!
16:29 ingy obra kept asking for my flight dates
16:29 ingy and then moved his earlier
16:29 ingy Taipei will be all used up by the time I get there
16:29 sahadev has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
16:29 obra we'll take pictures
16:30 ingy :P
16:30 ingy maybe I'll change my flight to the 15th
16:30 ingy muhahaha
16:30 hcchien ccCc
16:30 ingy *_*
16:30 obra do it
16:31 obra get taipei ready for us
16:31 * ingy gives obra her ICY STARE OF DEATH
16:31 obra now you sound like boojum, ingy
16:31 ingy I learned a thing or two from booj
16:32 ingy er, b**jum
16:33 whiteg ingy: are you sure?
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16:34 obra ow. my travel to TPE is going to be 24 hours, starting at 6pm
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16:59 crysflame ..
16:59 crysflame aha
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17:39 ingy hi whiteg
17:40 ingy hcchien: ping
17:40 hcchien ingy: yes?
17:41 ingy do we have an official wiki for yapc yet?
17:41 hcchien ingy: not yet.
17:42 ingy I can set up yapc.taipei.kwiki.org
17:42 hcchien oh, cool.
17:42 hcchien ingy++
17:43 ingy hcchien: do you have some grapics or a static site that I can theme the  kwiki with?
17:43 ingy I can just use the stuff autrijus sent me
17:44 ingy unless you have something nicer
17:44 ingy obra bummer
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17:47 ingy hi luqui
17:49 autrijus hi :)
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17:52 hcchien ingy: how is the official site of yapc
17:53 ingy hcchien: url?
17:54 malaire autrijus: Could you check my hyper-ops patch, whether it's ok or not?
17:54 luqui hi ingy
17:54 malaire (http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.compiler/292)
17:54 autrijus !!
17:54 autrijus lots of things happened
17:54 autrijus # http://autrijus.org/hackday/
17:54 autrijus slides for today's talk
17:54 autrijus just had a brief electricity outage here...
17:54 autrijus finally got some stable network now
17:55 autrijus interesting approach.
17:56 autrijus I think it works good as first-try
17:56 autrijus eventually we'd like to parse it as part of op2 parser
17:56 autrijus but I think it can go in.
17:56 autrijus please commit
17:56 wolverian autrijus: what is the encoding on hackday/? I can't get it to show properly.
17:56 autrijus utf-8.
17:56 autrijus it's also all in chinese.
17:57 autrijus s/all/almost/
17:57 wolverian ah. still shows as ?. I guess my font doesn't have chinese characters.
17:57 autrijus makes sense.
17:57 malaire I have no commit-rights yet
17:57 autrijus really.
17:57 * autrijus checks
17:57 Ovid has joined #perl6
17:57 autrijus gugod: you want to commit your test too? I'll make you a committer
17:57 autrijus greetings Ovid-san
17:57 Ovid Good morning, autrijus :)
17:58 ingy hi gugod
17:58 Ovid Hi ingy.
17:58 ingy hi Ovid
17:58 justatheory autrijus: No distracting ovid, he needs to be working right now!
17:58 autrijus what work needs him now
17:58 autrijus ?
17:58 autrijus malaire: invitation sent. please reply "thanks applied" to yourself :)
17:58 justatheory The training I'm about to give him.
17:58 autrijus err
17:58 autrijus s/invitation/committer bit added/
17:58 Ovid I pretend to work, Theory pretends to pay me.  We're all quite left-wing over here.
17:59 justatheory autrijus: Oh, have you implemented that op yet?
17:59 autrijus what op?
17:59 ingy oh no, Ovid is getting sucked into bricolage
17:59 justatheory err
17:59 justatheory blown, more like
17:59 Ovid What an apt description.
17:59 * ingy grabs Ovid's leg
17:59 Ovid That's not my leg.
17:59 * justatheory grabs ovid's hair
17:59 ingy you're right!
17:59 justatheory All right, all right! That's enough!
18:00 ingy but it's so big
18:00 autrijus gugod: welcome aboard, too.
18:00 justatheory gugod++ # My Unicode tester!
18:00 * justatheory & # Work
18:00 ingy gugod: I am coming up with ideas to use all of your time during YAPC
18:00 gugod hello theory
18:00 gugod hello all
18:01 obra hi
18:01 gugod ingy: .....
18:01 autrijus ingy: surprisingly I am coming up with ideas to use all of your time too
18:01 malaire ok, I did my first commit, v588 ...
18:01 autrijus malaire++
18:01 autrijus malaire++
18:01 autrijus I'll base generic hyperop off that.
18:01 luqui ack
18:01 ingy autrijus: I'm creating the yapc kwiki to start writing down all these plans
18:02 autrijus sure.
18:02 * luqui needs to propose a talk for yapc
18:02 rgs which yapc ?
18:02 luqui na
18:03 * luqui can't afford international flights
18:03 ingy luqui: think of it as an investment
18:03 luqui no, as in, I actually don't have that much moeny
18:03 luqui not, I don't have money to spend on that.  I just don't have it.
18:03 obra luqui: some international conferences fly interesting people in
18:03 rgs apparently my employer agreed to pay for me to go to oscon.
18:04 luqui rgs: that's always nice
18:04 rgs luqui: can you afford oscon ?
18:04 luqui not if I don't get my talk accepted
18:04 rgs right
18:04 luqui I'm counting on Damian to vouch for me (he's on the selection committee)
18:04 hcchien ingy: http://yapc.elixus.org/
18:05 ingy hcchien: http://yapc.kwiki.org/taipei/
18:05 rgs 'pparently my talk is mostly accepted
18:05 obra luqui: is it the conference fee for OSCon or the other expenses?
18:05 luqui obra: hmm?
18:05 obra that makes it too expensive
18:05 luqui mostly the conference fee
18:08 ingy hcchien: is Dan Kogai comming?
18:08 hcchien ingy: sadly, no. :/
18:10 obra yapc.tw people, join #yapc.tw
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18:18 pjcj d
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18:24 * luqui just submitted his talks
18:25 tiw hello, i am using pugs. I have a question, whether pair is implemented in pugs.
18:25 theorbtwo pair?
18:25 tiw $a = :key('value')
18:25 tiw appear err
18:25 theorbtwo Ah.
18:26 crysflame it might be in a test somewhere
18:26 theorbtwo Well, from a quick check, no, at least not in that format.
18:26 tiw and in which format?
18:26 crysflame if not, if you write up a test, autrijus will implement it for you (usually within a few minutes of seeing the test)
18:26 dada $a = (key => 'value');
18:27 tiw $a = 'key'=>'value' is not ok too
18:27 theorbtwo Hmm?  my $a = 'key' => 'value'; say $a.
18:27 theorbtwo Works for me.
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18:28 dada for me too
18:28 autrijus that is the only form of pair syntax that works now.
18:28 tiw Undefined variable $pair
18:28 tiw Val VUndef
18:28 autrijus I think we've got tests for the rest of the forms
18:28 autrijus tiw: oh. strict is on by default.
18:28 autrijus so, "my $pair"
18:29 tiw also
18:29 tiw i got it
18:29 tiw thanks lot
18:29 theorbtwo Hm, looks like the time prim is defined wrong -- it should be 0 at Jan 1 2000 (and floating point)... unless Larry changed his mind.
18:30 autrijus it is indeed wrong.
18:30 autrijus fix it? :)
18:30 tiw yes, it work now.
18:30 tiw and how can turn off strict
18:30 autrijus write a test
18:31 autrijus so I can write ext/strict/
18:32 theorbtwo Hm, I'm somewhat worried that I can't think of a way to test it.
18:32 autrijus "no strict;"
18:32 luqui time 0 ?
18:32 luqui oh that test
18:33 cognominal has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:33 luqui eval 'no strict;  $x = 10;'
18:33 luqui in a list of patterns with |, how do you specify a default?
18:33 cognominal has joined #perl6
18:33 theorbtwo I meant testing time().
18:33 luqui in haskell?
18:33 theorbtwo | otherwise = whatever
18:33 luqui theorbtwo: yeah, time(0) should do it
18:34 luqui (if I remember how time works properly...)
18:34 luqui (which I'm sure I don't)
18:34 luqui nevermind
18:34 autrijus luqui: if you are fixing hyperop base case, I just committed
18:35 luqui oh, okay, I'll see how you did it
18:35 luqui I kept getting type errors
18:35 luqui I don't think that's the proper behavior
18:35 tiw I can not use no strict, with following :No compatible subroutine found: &no
18:36 autrijus tiw: right, so that doubles as a test for 'no'.
18:36 luqui I think hyper on two scalars just does the operation once
18:36 luqui that makes writing things recursively really nice
18:37 autrijus luqui: maybe you can help haxx0ring Lexer line 383ish
18:37 autrijus and make >> and << work on all binary OPs
18:37 autrijus so it can work without us munging the Prim decls
18:37 autrijus if you don't feel like doing it I can do that tomorrow
18:38 luqui I can focus on that when I get home
18:38 luqui that sounds like a fun problem
18:38 autrijus cool. it's mildly complex, yeah
18:39 dada autrijus: do you want me to commit the unary * as I've coded it?
18:39 autrijus dada: as you nopasted the other day?
18:39 dada yes
18:39 autrijus along with Syn * etc?
18:39 autrijus and tests?
18:39 autrijus if so, sure!
18:39 dada yes
18:39 dada ok, I do
18:40 luqui how do you run a single test anymore?
18:40 luqui no module 'Test.pm'
18:40 malaire ./pugs t/op/hyper.t works for me
18:40 dada set $PERL6LIB
18:40 autrijus luqui: make install
18:40 luqui ohh... have to install it
18:40 autrijus or, set PERL6LIB to ext/Test/lib
18:40 autrijus and HARNESS_PERL to ./pugs
18:40 autrijus then "prove".
18:40 autrijus or just set PERL6LIB and ./pugs
18:41 autrijus take yer pick :)
18:41 autrijus ok. I think 6.0.11 on Sunday or Monday.
18:41 autrijus that gives me a weekend to tie loose ends up.
18:41 nothingmuch morning
18:41 autrijus greeintgs nothingmuch.
18:41 nothingmuch hulloh
18:42 * nothingmuch is sorry for not living up to promises
18:42 crysflame autrijus: pugs isn't mentioned at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl
18:42 nothingmuch been an annoying half-week so far
18:42 crysflame and it mentions Perl6 as a parrot project
18:42 autrijus crysflame: you can fix that
18:42 vladtz has joined #perl6
18:42 crysflame but i won't be. just figured i'd mention it.
18:42 * crysflame is researching re contextedness for work
18:43 autrijus nothingmuch: aw :/
18:44 theorbtwo Woo, my first commit: r592, fixes time().
18:44 nothingmuch theorbtwo++
18:44 * luqui & class
18:44 * nothingmuch wonders how you test that
18:44 luqui has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:45 autrijus theorbtwo++
18:45 autrijus nothingmuch: time(0)
18:45 theorbtwo I just asked pugs for time, asked perl for time, subtracted, asked units to convert to years, saw 30, and liked it.
18:45 autrijus pugs> time
18:45 crysflame heh
18:45 autrijus 163881920
18:45 autrijus perl -e 'time' # 1110566723
18:45 crysflame that doesn't look right
18:45 autrijus something is wrong.
18:45 autrijus (win32)
18:45 theorbtwo That's right.
18:46 theorbtwo Number of seconds since jan 1, 2000.
18:46 autrijus 163881920 is right!?
18:46 theorbtwo Not 1970.
18:46 theorbtwo Wait, what?
18:46 nothingmuch why did that have to change?
18:46 theorbtwo No, that's not right.
18:46 nothingmuch oh god
18:46 nothingmuch i want Time::Piece
18:46 autrijus jan 1 2000!?
18:46 nothingmuch 6.2! get me 6.2!
18:46 autrijus where is that mentioned?
18:47 autrijus where is it said that p6 counts with y2k as epoch?
18:47 ingy oh my god! there is another ingy, and she is also from Seattle!
18:47 ingy (google hit #2)
18:47 autrijus ingy: yeah, I noticed the other day too
18:47 autrijus guess you're really her
18:47 autrijus and I've been meeting someone else
18:48 autrijus who knew you well to fake an identity as ingy
18:48 ingy oHH NO!
18:48 Coke huh. for some reason I though "ingy" was a guy's name.
18:48 * theorbtwo searches.
18:49 ingy Coke: there are *2* girls named ingy in Seattle that disprove your assumption
18:49 obra ingy == twiggy?
18:49 Coke It just sounded masculine. =-) My bad. =-)
18:50 ingy oh crap... another ingy http://www.geekhive.com/
18:50 autrijus oh wow. y2k is for real.
18:50 * Coke vaguely wishes english had better gender discrimination built in, though the PC folks would hate that, he's sure. =-)
18:50 malaire where is y2k mentioned?
18:50 ingy I need a new name!
18:50 autrijus theorbtwo: is it mentioned in apoc/syno?
18:51 * nothingmuch was really offended when nothingmuch was already taken on livejournal
18:51 nothingmuch a friend has been pestering me for about 6 months to sign up
18:51 theorbtwo I'm searching.
18:51 nothingmuch so finally i was like 'fine fine fine'
18:51 nothingmuch turns out a month before that she signed up
18:51 autrijus malaire: http://0rz.net/5c0dN  
18:52 autrijus we live in interesting time()s.
18:52 * nothingmuch must remember to try and ruin her google ranking some more
18:53 theorbtwo Can't find it.
18:53 autrijus not in apocs it seems.
18:53 autrijus more importantly, not in Syns.
18:54 theorbtwo Not in any of the three, that I found.
18:54 autrijus neither did I.
18:54 autrijus theorbtwo: can you post to p6c?
18:54 autrijus announce that the time() has been changed
18:54 theorbtwo c?
18:54 autrijus citing the url above as reference
18:54 autrijus and ask for codification
18:54 autrijus yeah, it's c I think.
18:55 autrijus I'm still living by the "always start with p6c" rule of thumb
18:55 nothingmuch ooh, googling for myself: http://forums.photographyrev​iew.com/member.php?u=239051
18:55 autrijus and larry seems quite serious on that 2004-03-03 post...
18:56 nothingmuch damn, i love it when i'm artsy in the bio stuff
18:57 autrijus theorbtwo++ # actually remembered and implemented the y2k ruling. wonderful.
18:58 crysflame the y2k.. . ruling?
18:58 autrijus http://www.nntp.perl.org/grou​p/perl.perl6.internals/21717 # better reference url than 0rz above
18:58 autrijus crysflame: see that url
18:58 crysflame click
18:58 * nothingmuch wonders why not 0
18:58 autrijus C:\work\pugs>pugs -e "time().say"
18:58 crysflame oh, nice
18:58 autrijus 163882705
18:58 nothingmuch but 2000
18:58 * obra cries
18:58 nothingmuch if at all
18:58 obra Y2K IS NOT THE EPOCH
18:59 Coke obra; prove it. =-)
18:59 crysflame it is now
18:59 autrijus it is the pugs epoch now...
18:59 autrijus ...unless you can convince larry the other way.
18:59 nothingmuch and why not 1970 to retain compat to data stored in many places
18:59 * Coke is tempted to implement dan's epoch for parrot from that post.
18:59 obra What was nov 7 1858?
19:00 Coke that was for /parrot/
19:00 obra er 17
19:00 obra sure
19:00 Coke and dan was being DanCranky.
19:00 obra :)
19:00 autrijus obra: that's a VAXism.
19:01 Coke ah,I misread your send. Yes, it was 11/17/1858. =-)
19:01 autrijus "This base time of Nov. 17, 1858 has since been used by TOPS-10, TOPS-20, and VAX ... "
19:01 crysflame you can always just set the epoch by wrapping time..
19:01 crysflame time.epoch(VAX)
19:01 autrijus and we all know where Dan's root was.
19:01 crysflame time.epoch(MAC)
19:01 Coke ... "ew" =-)
19:01 crysflame time.epoch(UNIX)
19:01 dada use Epoch 'Neanderthal';
19:01 autrijus time.epoch('Discordian')
19:02 crysflame right!
19:02 malaire time.epoch(UNIVERSE)
19:02 nothingmuch discordian i can handle
19:02 * obra wants to know what caused that choice originally
19:02 autrijus obra: ask!
19:02 nothingmuch maybe we should find out if larry is not a cabbage or something
19:02 autrijus I think larry is at least 15,352,192 distinct different cabbages.
19:02 nothingmuch arbitrary values setting 0 are silly. they are --><-- with logic
19:02 obra autrijus: I'm asking the intarweb
19:03 nothingmuch Data::Dimensions is something i like
19:03 obra nothingmuch: so you want the discordian epoch?
19:03 nothingmuch because it is very carefully designed to not do that stuff
19:03 obra --><-- is the five fingered hand of eris.
19:03 theorbtwo Once we can, time(:epoc=>UNIX) should work.  But we can't yet.
19:03 nothingmuch orbra: out of all the possible solutions it is the one i'll have the lease problems remembering =)
19:03 nothingmuch theorbratwo. beh
19:03 tiw i example of pugs, there have #!perl6, is perl6 a link of pugs?
19:03 * nothingmuch should use tabcompletion and believe it when it doesn't
19:04 autrijus theorbtwo: the first goal is to get it codified :-/
19:04 autrijus tiw: no it is not. not until pugs is rewritten in perl6.
19:04 autrijus and even after that, not until larry blesses it as the real perl6.
19:04 crysflame that's the first time i've heard that come up
19:05 * Khisanth wonders if anyone is working on a vim/emacs "mode" for perl6
19:05 tiw then why write it in example?
19:05 autrijus tiw: because that's the suggested style in the Apocalypses and Synopses.
19:05 obra perlbot: november 17, 1858 is http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/usenet/julian-day
19:05 perlbot added november 17, 1858 to the database
19:05 theorbtwo OK, sent.
19:05 autrijus tiw: it also means that the examples can be shared between different perl6 implementations.
19:05 autrijus theorbtwo++
19:05 obra that makes some sense now
19:05 tiw i see
19:06 autrijus I think we took that tradition from seano's original P6C.pm.
19:06 theorbtwo Oh: Does openfoundry use your i10n framework, autrijus?
19:07 autrijus l10n? yes.
19:07 autrijus which is just rt's.
19:07 * theorbtwo was wondering about a fallback that used babelfish.
19:07 rgs lsc
19:07 obra theorbtwo: we've talked about it
19:07 obra theorbtwo: it's against their aup
19:08 theorbtwo Pitty.
19:08 obra autrijus: what's the state of foundry-3.4?
19:08 autrijus obra: the UI part is pending more meetings
19:08 obra once that happens, i think that'll be the fast way to get cpan-3.4
19:08 autrijus but I think pretty strongly that tabbedui and classicui and foundryui should merge.
19:09 obra yay
19:09 obra it's time
19:09 autrijus it is. and cpan-3.4 can then base on that.
19:09 obra hell, it can just be foundry
19:09 autrijus we should code for real toward that when you're here
19:09 autrijus sure thing.
19:09 autrijus ingy has good ideas about per-user svn space and kwiki and blog etc space
19:09 obra yay
19:09 autrijus which I am very interested in
19:10 autrijus so we should also do that.
19:10 obra -> yapc.tw
19:10 ingy yes!
19:12 autrijus :)
19:15 tiw is type system in pugs not complete, or?
19:15 hawkaloogie has left
19:15 theorbtwo Do we not do prefix ++ and --?
19:15 theorbtwo I don't see them in op1...
19:16 autrijus it's just ++ and --
19:16 autrijus tiw: the type system in pugs is very confusing.
19:16 autrijus however, I don't think perl6's type system is less confusing. :)
19:16 theorbtwo Ah.
19:16 ingy heh
19:16 ingy I spent hours reading about Haskell's type system last night
19:17 tiw confusing? what is mean
19:17 autrijus tiw: i.e. we have a type system, but it is only used as context hints
19:17 autrijus i.e. sub foo (Str $x) { ... }
19:17 autrijus you can pass a Int into foo()
19:17 autrijus it will just stringify it.
19:17 dada ingy: I gave up at page 39 of Gentle
19:18 nothingmuch has left
19:18 ingy dada: I'm half thru chapter 7
19:18 tiw i can not explicit define a Int variable now?
19:18 autrijus tiw: no, there is a test for that.
19:18 autrijus that is todo.
19:18 ingy ie I survived reading about types, without committing suicide
19:19 ingy Haskell has an entire OO system just for types!
19:19 ingy a fullfeatured OO system
19:19 tiw oh, i should see the test.
19:21 tiw ingy: you don't like types
19:22 ingy tiw: sure I like types, I just wasn't prepared for Haskell's types!
19:23 theorbtwo Is there a purticular reason that readline is defined to be =, rather then vice-versa?
19:29 dada uhm
19:29 dada ghc complains about not finding 'System.Posix.Types'
19:29 autrijus version and platforms?
19:30 dada 6.2.2 win32
19:30 dada fresh installed
19:30 autrijus ingy: there is also fundeps, existentials, rank-n, and GADTs
19:30 autrijus .msi?
19:30 dada yes
19:30 autrijus C:\ghc\ghc-6.2.2\imports\System\Posix
19:30 autrijus Types.hi
19:30 autrijus is it not there? it is there for me.
19:31 ingy autrijus: great :|
19:31 autrijus ingy: these are not haskell 98 and pugs makes no use of them (yet)
19:31 autrijus so you don't need to do seppuku just yet
19:31 dada fixed
19:31 autrijus "fixed"?
19:31 theorbtwo Please, don't get guts all over the chan.
19:31 dada just needed to close the console and open a new one :-)
19:32 autrijus ah.
19:32 dada it messes with %ENV apparently
19:32 autrijus weird.
19:32 autrijus oh. the .msi
19:32 autrijus that's too fresh :)
19:32 dada yes, the console was opened *before* installing GHC :-)
19:33 autrijus figured :)
19:33 tiw ~= is also a todo feature?
19:33 autrijus yeah, the >><< modifier and the post = modifiers are todo.
19:34 autrijus ~= etc are trivial to implement
19:34 autrijus just look at --
19:34 autrijus not sure if they are tested
19:35 dada why doesn't make test pick up my testfile?
19:36 autrijus perl Makefile.PL
19:36 autrijus will refresh the list of test.s
19:36 autrijus theorbtwo: you posted to p6c?
19:36 theorbtwo Yeah.  Not sure why it hasn't shown up; I should be whitelisted.
19:36 autrijus hmm, maybe needs some time to propagate
19:36 theorbtwo I posted via the NNTP.
19:36 autrijus not sure nntp works.
19:36 autrijus but ok :)
19:37 dada autrijus: yes, sure
19:37 ingy gugod: ping
19:37 autrijus 3:37am here. guess gugod's asleep.
19:37 autrijus I need to sleep soonish too.
19:38 ninereasons has joined #perl6
19:38 ingy gugod never sleeps
19:38 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
19:38 ingy gugod: join #yapc.tw when you wake up
19:38 nothingmuch anyone care to help me with YAHT excercise 4.7?
19:38 nothingmuch i've been delaying it all day
19:39 autrijus malaire: mm, the >> form is not parsed, only french form?
19:39 malaire yes, I only added french form
19:39 theorbtwo Which one is 4.7?
19:39 nothingmuch #haskell people are not listening to me
19:39 nothingmuch Tuples + Either
19:39 nothingmuch what does Left x construct?
19:40 nothingmuch a value that can be used in place of Either?
19:40 nothingmuch which means...?
19:40 dada I'm about to commit
19:40 jdv79 has left "Leaving"
19:40 nothingmuch fromTuple (One a ) = Left (Left a )
19:40 malaire Left x constructs a value of type Either, as does Right x
19:41 autrijus Left :: a -> Either a b
19:41 nothingmuch what i'm looking for is a practical example of where Either makes sense
19:41 autrijus i.e. for whatever b, it can make a "Either a b" from a
19:41 autrijus nothingmuch: oh. sure. Bind.hs :)
19:41 nothingmuch in the hopes that i can generalize form that
19:41 autrijus Either lets you returns a string for error
19:41 nothingmuch autrijus: be reasonable please
19:42 autrijus and a whatever type you want for normal "correct" answer
19:42 autrijus "Either String Val" means
19:42 * theorbtwo wonders how many people have filled in affiliation~~m:i/pugs/ in the YAHT download form... and how many of them are me.
19:42 autrijus "something that can fail with a String, or succeed with a Val"
19:42 nothingmuch so the return of function bzzt, being either means 'either bzzt was happy, or it was sad'
19:42 malaire Example 4.7 is *not* practical example... Once you learn about Monads, there are many examples where Either is used.
19:42 dada how do I set the username with svn?
19:42 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
19:43 autrijus svn ci --username maybe?
19:43 nothingmuch ok, what does fromTouple mean, really?
19:43 dada autrijus: exactly that
19:43 nothingmuch either it's a value, or it's a pair, or it's a triple, or a quadruple?
19:44 nothingmuch given any one of the Touple variations?
19:44 ingy dada: svn help checkin
19:44 ingy er
19:44 nothingmuch how does that become, err, logical?
19:44 ingy dada: svn help commit
19:44 ingy rather
19:44 dada it worked! committed! r593! hooray!
19:44 ingy dada++
19:44 dada ingy: thanks :-)
19:45 ingy np
19:45 Limbic_Region perlbot karma for autrijus
19:45 perlbot Karma for autrijus: 6
19:45 theorbtwo You can write multiple versions of the same function that take different arguments.
19:45 Limbic_Region seems low
19:45 Limbic_Region autrijus  
19:45 * nothingmuch rephrases
19:45 malaire notrhingmuch: It's jsut a example how a single function has return 4 different types of data (i.e. you can't do that, unless different types are put within some other type, e.g. Either)
19:45 theorbtwo So tupple1 Tupple a can do something different then tupple1 Tupple a b.
19:45 Limbic_Region arggh - but this client eats plus symbols so I can't karma anybody
19:46 nothingmuch how do i use the return value?
19:46 nothingmuch ok
19:46 dada actually, t/op/splat.t contains 1 test and 2 todo's (and 4 more commented out because they don't even parse)
19:46 nothingmuch i think i get it
19:46 theorbtwo autrijus++ # proxied
19:46 nothingmuch then i pass it on to other polymorphic functions
19:46 nothingmuch and it just works?
19:46 theorbtwo Then again, I'm not real sure my solution was the best one.
19:47 nothingmuch data if you can get something that doesn't parse to todo_ok in an eval '', then please do
19:47 theorbtwo BTW, appendix d has solutions.
19:47 nothingmuch i looked at the solution, and didn't understand it
19:47 autrijus is this the "tup1" exercise?
19:47 nothingmuch uhuh
19:47 nothingmuch i got passed Maybe
19:47 nothingmuch that makes sense, sort of
19:48 autrijus oh. it's not the tup1 yet. I have a favourite solution for tup1 :)
19:49 autrijus probably won't help you, though :)
19:49 autrijus # http://wagner.elixus.org/~autrijus/tup1.hs
19:49 theorbtwo Oh, my solution does match the sample one pretty well.  That's pretty sad, as I thought my solution was an ugly hack.
19:49 iwt has joined #perl6
19:50 * nothingmuch grudgingly continues hoping to feel he got it later on
19:50 tiw is match a regex not implemented? and is there anywhere a list, in which i can find what is implemented and what not, i do not want to waste your time on such trivial question
19:50 nothingmuch tiw: this list is a work in progress
19:51 nothingmuch tiw: to be quick, grep -r todo_ t/
19:51 autrijus tiw: you can help filling in annotations for t/Synopsis/*.pod
19:51 nothingmuch tiw: and check if there's a corresponding file for the feature you want
19:51 autrijus it's a task that can be done piecemeal
19:51 dada nothingmuch: I have another exercise for you: learn to spell my nick :-)
19:51 autrijus ask nothingmuch and stevan for the appropriate S<> syntax.
19:52 autrijus I'd be happy to walk you through, but I need to sleep now :)
19:52 nothingmuch da<tab>, i think
19:52 * autrijus waves &
19:52 dada nothingmuch: no, "data" is not here :-)
19:52 nothingmuch that's unambiguous at the moment
19:52 dada bye autrijus
19:52 nothingmuch ciao, autark-jp
19:52 nothingmuch damnit
19:52 nothingmuch autrijus:
19:52 dada [20:47] <nothingmuch> data if you can get something that doesn't parse to todo_ok in an eval '', then please do
19:53 * nothingmuch is having a very very bad day
19:53 nothingmuch all(users).any(forgive, ignore)
19:53 * dada pats on nothingmuch's shoulder
19:54 malaire nothingmuch: Once you get to YAHT chapter 9, you might want to read "All About Monads" (http://www.nomaware.com/monads/html/) at that point. -- At least I found that a lot easier introduction to Monads. But it requires you to understand basic stuff first.
19:54 * nothingmuch will try to remember
19:56 * malaire Goes to sleep...
19:56 ninereasons has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
19:56 malaire has left
19:56 nothingmuch ciao malaire
19:56 rgs Ryusei-Kacho ?
19:57 dada speaking of Haskell, I didn't understand what a "constructor" is
19:57 nothingmuch as I see it a constructor is a way to take some things
19:57 dada but
19:58 nothingmuch and combine them in an undefined way (does the compiler control this?)
19:58 nothingmuch into a tyupe
19:58 dada data Point a = Pt a a
19:58 nothingmuch which other functions have a standard way of taking apart
19:58 dada "Point" is the type here
19:58 dada and what is "Pt"?
19:58 nothingmuch Pt is the name of the constructor
19:59 dada and is the body of the constructor defined elsewhere?
19:59 nothingmuch a a is the body
19:59 nothingmuch it takes a a
19:59 nothingmuch and converts it into Point
19:59 dada mmm
19:59 nothingmuch somehow
19:59 dada but aren't names beginning with a capital reserved for types?
20:00 nothingmuch well, it's not really a function
20:00 nothingmuch since it doesn't do things you control
20:00 nothingmuch or rather, it's not really user defined
20:00 nothingmuch i don't know if it isn't a function
20:00 dada the Gentle tutorial isn't very clear about this point
20:01 rgs autrijus: nice slides.
20:02 ninereasons has joined #perl6
20:03 nnunley data:  It's a signature, not a function.
20:03 nnunley So you know the shape, but not the construction.
20:04 dada argh!
20:04 nnunley You would need to write a function that in turn builds the data for you.
20:04 dada why is everybody calling me "data" today? :-)
20:04 nnunley dada: Good question.  Muscle memory.
20:04 nnunley Or you could see it as a dadaist experiment. ;)
20:05 dada even :-)
20:05 dada so, "data Point a = Pt a a" is not enough to build a point?
20:07 nnunley dada:  You'd have a simple function that did someting like:  makePoint x y = Pt x y
20:08 nnunley dada:  Note, the type isn't defined yet for a --  it could be just about anything, as long it as it was the same for both slots.
20:09 dada yes, this is clear
20:09 dada but!
20:09 dada Prelude> data Point a = Pt a a
20:09 dada <interactive>:1: parse error on input `data'
20:09 dada should I use "dada" instead? ;-)
20:09 nnunley Put it in a file.
20:09 dada oh, ok
20:09 nnunley The interpreters are a little dull when it comes to defining new functions and types.
20:10 tiw nothingmuch: i have checked matching regexp in t/, but find nothing about it
20:10 nothingmuch tiw: regexp are not implemented
20:11 tiw and also in todo
20:11 tiw not in todo?
20:11 dada well, I still don't understand the need for a "Pt" there
20:11 dada but maybe I will...
20:12 nothingmuch i was supposed to write that, tiw, but i feel like crap and can't concentrate
20:14 nnunley dada: I think it's just to give you a place to hang things.  If you had other options for what a Point could be, say... data Point a = Pt a a | Pt3d a a a | Pt1d a
20:14 dada mmm
20:15 dada this makes sense
20:15 Coke has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:15 nnunley data:  I suppose it makes more sense once you start playing with the codebase.
20:16 nnunley That is, once you start playing with a real code base.
20:18 nnunley Blah.  Did it again.
20:23 dada I'm getting used to it :-)
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20:34 dada I go, goodnight
20:35 dada has quit IRC ("kein bestandteil zu sein")
20:37 theorbtwo Resending time() post via email.
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20:41 theorbtwo Is it just me, or is the hyperoperator bit in Prim.hs completely wrong?
20:42 theorbtwo The first codepoint given is capital a circumflex, not <<.
20:42 theorbtwo Morever, it gives <<op>> instead of >>op<< unless I'm quite mistaken.
20:42 theorbtwo Which is quite possible, I should note.
20:43 b6s_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:43 tiw bye, goodnight
20:43 theorbtwo G'night, tiw.
20:44 tiw has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:49 theorbtwo t/op/hyper.t would be the right place, right?
20:50 theorbtwo Oh, hmm...
20:51 * nothingmuch needs alcohol and vast quantities of it, at that
20:51 nothingmuch sorry for not getting to rules yet, everyone
20:51 nothingmuch nothingmuch--
20:51 nothingmuch adios
20:51 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
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21:36 Schwern has joined #perl6
21:42 theorbtwo Allo, Schwern.
21:46 Schwern Hi
21:46 theorbtwo Hm, do all binary operators have an assignment form?
21:46 theorbtwo Er, binary infix.
21:48 theorbtwo Oh, wait, they're already there, why aren't they parsing...
21:49 theorbtwo Hm, this is sticker then I thought.
21:50 theorbtwo The problem with $a ||= 3; is that it thinks it's $a || =3;
21:51 theorbtwo That is, that the = readline operator is getting applied to the constant 3, and that's getting logically ored with $a.
21:51 theorbtwo (And all of this in void context.)
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22:32 nnunley Schwern: Hey.
22:49 Schwern Hey
22:50 Limbic_Region 17:35, nnunley serves to Schwern
22:51 Limbic_Region 17:51, Schwern returns serve
22:51 Limbic_Region this is the longest game of pong I have ever seen
22:52 larsen has joined #perl6
22:58 Schwern Sorry, Pugs is slow
22:58 iblechbot_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:58 Juerd_ hehe
22:58 Juerd_ I've played pong via e-mail once
22:58 Juerd_ Once, because a 15 point game takes way too long
22:59 theorbtwo And playing it by email speeds it up?
22:59 Juerd_ No
22:59 Juerd_ Not quite
22:59 Juerd_ Real time games are hard to play turn based
23:00 theorbtwo Of course.
23:00 Juerd_ It worked though
23:00 Schwern Let's play tetris on paper.
23:00 theorbtwo (This being why D&D gets a big -- in my book vs LARP.)
23:00 Juerd_ Schwern: I've done that!
23:00 Juerd_ In school
23:00 Juerd_ During maths
23:00 Schwern I was going to say, you must have been reaaaaaally bored.
23:01 Juerd_ Of course
23:01 theorbtwo Trying to create an optimal algo, or what?
23:01 Juerd_ No
23:01 Juerd_ Trying to out-score my opponent
23:01 Juerd_ We used all blocks except the square one
23:02 Juerd_ A simple D6 determined the block
23:03 afbach has joined #perl6
23:03 Juerd_ If I had to choose between paper tetris and e-mail pong, it'd be paper tetris
23:04 theorbtwo /metoo.
23:04 Juerd_ we mostly played hangman though
23:04 Juerd_ but not with easy words
23:05 theorbtwo antidisestablishmentarisim?
23:05 theorbtwo I know, in Dutch.
23:05 Juerd_ Like that, yes
23:06 theorbtwo I wonder -- does Dutch tend to form reallylongcompoundwords like German?
23:06 Juerd_ Our chem teacher once tried to play hangman with formulas
23:06 lumi It does
23:06 lumi Like telefoonbeantwoordaparaatvrees
23:06 Juerd_ Like H2O -> 2H2 + O2
23:06 lumi (Fear of ansaphones)
23:06 Juerd_ lumi: That's voicemailfobie in modern Dutch.
23:06 Juerd_ :)
23:07 Juerd_ theorbtwo: Yes.
23:07 lumi Really? My favourite word, demolished!
23:07 Juerd_ theorbtwo: rioolwaterzuiveringsinstallatie
23:08 theorbtwo Something to do with plumbing?
23:08 Juerd_ Somewhat
23:08 Juerd_ I don't even know the English word for riool
23:08 theorbtwo I know no Dutch.  Hell, I barely know any German, and I've lived in Munich for over a year and a half.
23:09 theorbtwo Babelfish suggests sewer.
23:09 Juerd_ You could never learn Dutch either - you'll just notice everyone starts speaking English to you...
23:09 Juerd_ sewer water cleaning installation, then
23:11 Juerd_ You misspelled renaissance in your yahoo profile, I think
23:11 theorbtwo Me?
23:11 theorbtwo I don't really care.
23:13 Juerd_ Or someone invading your name space
23:13 Juerd_ (It's hard to type that without [])
23:13 webmind print $_
23:13 Juerd_ webmind: needlessly verbose
23:13 Juerd_ webmind: Just print
23:13 webmind uhm
23:13 webmind yeah
23:13 webmind sorry
23:13 Juerd_ :)
23:13 theorbtwo Fixed anyway.
23:13 lumi btw theorbtwo, how's the subetha doing?
23:14 theorbtwo Not too badly, but will be a while before it sees light at this pace.
23:14 lumi Need help? I've my mac now
23:14 Juerd_ lumi: with french fries?
23:15 * Juerd_ is still waiting for the mac menu mini
23:15 lumi Um yeh, one of those
23:15 theorbtwo Not really.  Ended up putting pearpc on another box as well.
23:15 Juerd_ I've been considering wanting a mac mini.
23:15 Juerd_ (Literally)
23:15 Juerd_ I still don't know if I want one
23:15 theorbtwo Strangely, networking worked much more easily with that one.
23:15 Juerd_ I want to want one though
23:15 theorbtwo I still don't know if I want an OSX box at all.
23:16 webmind Juerd_, why would you want one |?
23:16 Juerd_ theorbtwo: That's my problem too
23:16 webmind ?
23:16 Juerd_ webmind: Because it's a very neat and silent tiny box
23:16 theorbtwo There still seems to be a significant divorce between the unixy bits and the macy bits.
23:16 webmind well loads of silent boxes out there
23:16 theorbtwo The filesystems have different roots, though.
23:16 Juerd_ Not at this price, webmind
23:16 webmind http://www.myelectronics.nl/
23:16 webmind yes
23:16 webmind at that price
23:17 webmind but no macs
23:17 Juerd_ Then not elegantly small
23:17 Juerd_ Or?
23:17 lumi Filesystems, different roots?
23:17 webmind Juerd_, check that url.. and then compleyr systems
23:17 webmind the site is crap btw
23:17 theorbtwo They seem to...
23:18 Juerd_ I'll have a look
23:18 lumi I don't think so
23:18 webmind btw did the '...' operator still made it into perl6 ?
23:18 lumi You have / and it has your booted partition mounted, at least in my setup, and /Volumes where itautomounts stuff
23:19 lumi But ask nothingmuchm he's the Mac guru
23:19 theorbtwo Oh... no, there's just a lot of hidden directories.
23:19 lumi There is that
23:20 Juerd_ webmind: Ehm. I can't find any system that's comparable to the mac mini in price, size and performance
23:20 Juerd_ webmind: Which one do you suggest I look at?
23:20 webmind ah
23:20 webmind performance
23:20 webmind Juerd_, well mini-itx case + pentium M board ?
23:20 webmind not sure about the pricing then
23:21 * webmind actually isn't sure about the mac-mini's performance
23:21 Juerd_ webmind: Pentium M is expensive.
23:21 webmind would you want to run linux or MacOSX on the mini btw ?
23:22 webmind Juerd_, but fast
23:22 Juerd_ I'd like to try OSX
23:22 Juerd_ But I'll probably end up running debian on it
23:22 theorbtwo There's little point in buying a mac just to put debian on it.
23:22 Juerd_ theorbtwo: There is with this little machine
23:22 theorbtwo ...though I suppose if the ...
23:22 Juerd_ It's small and silent.
23:22 theorbtwo What I was about to say.
23:22 * webmind doubt if debian runs as fast on a mac as macOS does.. but I honestly don't know
23:23 theorbtwo If you actually have a wish for a small silent box.
23:23 Juerd_ And not ridiculously expensive, as mini-itx systems are
23:23 webmind Juerd_, I sugest trying it out somewhere first then
23:23 theorbtwo I have only a minor wish for such a thing.
23:23 theorbtwo (Could do movies on it, probably better then the laptop I'm using now.)
23:23 Juerd_ Compare cheap laptops to mini-itx systems
23:23 webmind Juerd_, macmini is 500 right ?
23:23 Juerd_ And then realise the cheap laptops come with a big TFT screen built in!
23:24 Juerd_ That makes the mini-itx systems very expensive.
23:24 Juerd_ A mini itx board easily costs EUR 100
23:24 Juerd_ While a cheap micro atx board costs around EUR 40
23:24 Juerd_ Or even less
23:24 Juerd_ webmind: Yes
23:24 Juerd_ webmind: WITH optical drive!
23:24 theorbtwo There's the matter of upgradability, but a mac mini isn't any more upgradable then a laptop.
23:25 theorbtwo Possibly less.
23:25 webmind Juerd_, dvd drive right ?
23:25 webmind which is slot load afaik :(
23:25 webmind I guess it's nice
23:26 webmind just not sure about the g4+slowbus performance
23:26 Juerd_ theorbtwo: I don't really care much about that. After two years, I just buy a new one if I think I need one
23:26 webmind especially with non-macos
23:26 Juerd_ webmind: You know what I use computers for, right?
23:26 webmind coding ?
23:26 Juerd_ I use a browser and terminals with ssh
23:26 theorbtwo I don't get new computers all that often.
23:26 Juerd_ That's about it.
23:26 webmind yes
23:26 Juerd_ And some music playing
23:26 theorbtwo And I very rarely do a complete upgrade at once.
23:27 webmind so why need the performance of a macmini ?
23:27 Juerd_ webmind: Because it's a hell of a lot faster than the annoyingly slow 533 MHz vias
23:28 Juerd_ I have two 800 MHz mini itx epias just laying around because I find them too slow to enjoy
23:28 webmind hm k
23:28 theorbtwo For me, I have two rooms.  The noise budget in the living room is already blown.  Putting a perm machine under the bed in the bedroom might be nice, but it'd have to be quiet, and damn cheap.
23:28 webmind sounds usefull
23:28 Juerd_ webmind: One will be our print server
23:28 webmind Juerd_, seen the dual mini-itx btw ?
23:28 webmind Juerd_, hmk
23:28 webmind nice
23:28 Juerd_ Although that'll be a step backwards from the P3-700 we have now
23:28 Juerd_ The good thing though is that it'll be mounted to the wal
23:29 Juerd_ wall
23:29 webmind and silent ?
23:29 Juerd_ And thus look good in the office :)
23:29 Juerd_ A little more silent than we have now. It's not fanless and we'll still be using a normal psu
23:29 webmind main advantage of mini-itx to me is size+noise+power usage
23:29 webmind hmk
23:30 Juerd_ Which it all doesn't have. :)
23:31 webmind well size + power usage advantage?
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23:35 theorbtwo Hm.
23:36 theorbtwo The 802.11 will not work under Linux.
23:36 theorbtwo I'd call that a good reason to not run it.
23:37 Juerd_ So I'll use an USB dongle
23:37 Juerd_ It's not a big deal. It doesn't come with 802.11 standard anyway
23:40 webmind does it have any interfacing / driver issues under linux for any other hardware ?
23:43 theorbtwo http://www.sowerbutts.com/linux-mac-mini/#support -- audio doesn't work, probably will be fixed soon, this guy thinks.
23:43 theorbtwo bluetooth and modem untested.
23:52 webmind audio
23:52 webmind that sounds like crap
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