Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 * Juerd z
00:16 * theorbtwo crazy is.
00:30 ninereasons has quit IRC ("Leaving")
00:34 jabbot pugs - 626 - More authors updates: extra column with
00:42 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
00:52 * Khisanth strangles YAHT
00:54 theorbtwo http://desert-island.dynodns.net/perl/prims.html
00:55 Khisanth is that all the implemented operators?
00:57 theorbtwo Yep.
00:59 theorbtwo Currently done with a little p5 script that takes them out of initSyms = table in Prims.hs
01:00 theorbtwo The presentation could use some work, but I'm not 100% sure what to do with it.
01:07 FOAD has joined #perl6
01:10 theorbtwo Allo, FOAD.
01:16 FOAD_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
01:17 Khisanth theorbtwo: can't do it in p6 yet? :)
01:19 theorbtwo Hm, could, but would be hard.
01:19 theorbtwo Regexes are a great goodness.
01:24 theorbtwo Updated
01:24 theorbtwo sleep &
01:56 iwt has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
02:15 castaway_ has joined #perl6
02:17 mugwump I guess perl5 regexes would be `easier' via pcre than implementing perl6 regexes straight away
02:18 obra    i thought pcre wasn't quite C
02:19 mugwump :-/
02:19 mugwump How is your weekend going for you anyway obra ?
02:19 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
02:21 obra Today was ok. I haven't done the work work I need to do before monday, but I got Devel::CallTrace commented, tested, docced and uploaded
02:21 obra Which has led me to want to understand the debugger
02:27 mugwump yeah.  ever looked at the implementation of Devel::Cover vs. Devel::Coverage?
02:31 obra nope
02:33 castaway has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:47 mugwump Devel::Coverage uses the debugging hooks, Devel::Cover uses a more comphrehensive approach - it replaces Perl_runops
02:48 mugwump AIUI
02:48 obra   nod
02:48 obra pjcj said that the hooks jst aren't suffiicnent for that
02:48 obra man. cna't type
02:49 mugwump I had to bite my tongue at the last PM meet when someone had just finished off showing off Devel::Cover, then described "how it works" like Devel::Coverage.  Didn't want to look like a pratt ;)
02:51 bd_ has quit IRC ("ps2 mouse replacement")
02:54 mugwump I was thinking, "I remember being shown this at a presentation before it was released"
03:04 obra heh
03:23 mugwump Yay, my crack-fueled quantum junction script got another complete standing down message from Larry!  Those are the best.
03:24 metaperl standing down? you mean he rejected it?
03:33 dc has joined #perl6
03:33 mugwump http://xrl.us/fe9d (Link to groups-beta.google.com)
03:34 mugwump right, gotta go, cafe closing...
03:35 dc has left
03:44 jabbot pugs - 627 - Added examples/golf, containing Santa Cl
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05:14 jabbot pugs - 629 - * param extraction for $_ and $^x now en
05:14 jabbot pugs - 628 - * use proper 'skip' syntax
05:15 autrijus lucs: fixed.
05:15 obra morning, autrijus
05:15 autrijus hey obra.
05:20 lucs autrijus: Thanks. And good morning :)
05:21 autrijus :)
05:21 autrijus I'll start to write pugscc now.
05:21 autrijus est 3 mins :)
05:22 autrijus "compile p6 to native code and deter all reverse engineering attempts!"
05:22 autrijus or something.
05:22 * obra is timing from now until he sees the checkin
05:22 obra "compile perl6 to native code for a huge performance boost"?
05:23 autrijus not huge. same as B::*
05:23 autrijus currently.
05:23 autrijus ~ same as B::C
05:25 lucs Simple as a B::C.
05:29 autrijus done. testing.
05:29 autrijus (yeah, more than 3 mins. :-/)
05:29 obra you are forgiven
05:29 obra how many loc?
05:30 autrijus 12
05:30 obra you-- # you promised it would be 0 loc
05:30 obra autrijus++ # pugs->native code
05:30 autrijus all 12 is in the "pugscc" helper script.
05:30 autrijus ;)
05:30 obra hah
05:30 obra you++ # no new core code
05:30 autrijus so I consider 0 really.
05:31 obra fair
05:31 autrijus committing.
05:31 * obra looks around for clkao
05:31 obra it appears that his p5 p4 mirror is missing files
05:32 autrijus hm.
05:33 * autrijus finds a security exploit.
05:33 autrijus in pugscc.
05:33 * autrijus blames p5 and fixes that.
05:34 obra nice
05:44 jabbot pugs - 630 - * first cut at pugscc
05:45 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
05:46 nothingmuch hola
05:47 * obra reads perl5db.pl and starts to twitch
05:50 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
05:51 autrijus ok, we have a honest-to-god pugscc now.
05:52 autrijus the executable it generates depends on nothing but libc :)
05:52 autrijus so it's more like 30 minutes :)
05:52 obra wow
05:52 obra how big is hello world?
05:52 autrijus and I'm sad to report that the loc is 24 lines
05:53 autrijus including empty lines
05:53 nothingmuch how does it do that?
05:53 autrijus 3.6mb
05:53 autrijus nothingmuch: read script/pugscc :)
05:53 obra stripped?
05:53 nothingmuch autrijus: did you look at my annoyances of yesterday, btw?
05:53 autrijus not sure how to strip a win32 executable
05:54 autrijus nothingmuch: zip?
05:54 jabbot pugs - 631 - * fixed typos and cleaned up messages.
05:54 nothingmuch uhuh
05:54 Khisanth get strip from cygwin/mingw?
05:54 nothingmuch ah
05:54 autrijus maybe. not very concerned at this point.
05:55 nothingmuch pugscc is naughty
05:55 autrijus it is!
05:55 nothingmuch autrijus++
05:55 autrijus but imagine doing it with C!
05:55 autrijus :)
05:55 Khisanth witing pugscc with C?
05:55 autrijus actually, don't imagine, look at B::C :)
05:55 autrijus Khisanth: aye. pugscc does exactly what B::C in perl5 did.
05:55 autrijus well, not exactly, but a close approximation
05:55 nothingmuch autrijus: when i'll get to work i'd like to implement zip
05:55 nothingmuch and get some help on that
05:55 autrijus nothingmuch: cool
05:56 afbach has joined #perl6
05:56 autrijus sure
05:56 nothingmuch ok
05:56 nothingmuch now i've got to get ready and stuff
05:56 autrijus see ya
05:57 Khisanth works better than B::C? :)
05:57 autrijus of course :)
05:58 Khisanth s/better/more reliably/
05:58 Khisanth it was kinda hit and miss thing
06:02 autrijus well, try it and see :)
06:04 jabbot pugs - 632 - * even more cleanup on pugscc; now assum
06:04 autrijus ingy: I think doc/perlkwid.kwid belonds to ext/Kwid/doc
06:04 autrijus or ext/Kwid/lib
06:04 autrijus but I think it's cool for each ext to maintain their own installable kwids.
06:11 Khisanth how do you use it?
06:12 * Khisanth tried compiling one of he examples
06:14 jabbot pugs - 633 - * add usage info and pathsep to pugscc
06:16 autrijus Khisanth: hm?
06:16 autrijus make install
06:16 autrijus pugscc examples/life.p6
06:16 Khisanth can't just do perl scripts/pugscc ?
06:17 autrijus that should work also, provided a "pugs" executable is built first
06:17 autrijus i.e. after "make"
06:17 autrijus (in r633)
06:18 Khisanth getting "Fail: -C: openFile: does not exist (No such file or directory)" with a file and with -e
06:19 autrijus did you rebuild pugs?
06:20 autrijus a sec
06:22 * Khisanth makes clean just to be sure
06:24 autrijus try r634?
06:24 autrijus I wonder what's wrong.
06:24 nothingmuch damnit
06:24 nothingmuch censoreship sucks
06:24 autrijus does "pugs -C -e 'print 123'" work for you?
06:24 nothingmuch now my mother hates me, /and/ she won't better herself
06:24 autrijus eh?
06:24 nothingmuch all because I kept my mouth shut for years
06:26 Khisanth same error
06:26 Khisanth after the make clean that is, tryin 634
06:27 autrijus very strange.
06:27 nothingmuch ok, well anyway
06:27 nothingmuch my ride is here in an hour
06:27 nothingmuch and I'm ready
06:27 autrijus anyone else willing to try pugscc and see if it works?
06:27 nothingmuch so i'd like to do the zip thing
06:28 nothingmuch autrijus: trying...
06:28 autrijus ok. you'd like to make semicolon inside brackets to be multidim constructor
06:28 nothingmuch i think
06:28 nothingmuch will that yield a list of lists in pugs internals?
06:28 autrijus yes.
06:29 nothingmuch ok, then that's what we'll do
06:29 nothingmuch and then make an explicit type vcast thingy
06:30 autrijus yeah.
06:30 nothingmuch where the thing wants a vlist where the Vlist -> a => Vlist a ?
06:30 autrijus the trick is how to make
06:30 autrijus zip @a;@b
06:30 autrijus and
06:30 autrijus zip(@a;@b)
06:30 autrijus parse differently.
06:30 nothingmuch oh my
06:30 nothingmuch ';' is evil
06:31 Khisanth is the ; in first case ending the statement?
06:31 autrijus yup.
06:31 autrijus may I interest you in the Y operator first? :D
06:32 nothingmuch you may
06:32 autrijus i.e. let's first make zip work before tackling ;
06:32 nothingmuch how does chaining stuff work?
06:32 autrijus it's list-associative
06:32 Khisanth that ; looks for for obfuscating :)
06:32 autrijus chaining means something else
06:32 Khisanth s/for/good/
06:33 autrijus nothingmuch: just add a
06:33 nothingmuch autrijus: explain what the tree looks like
06:33 autrijus \\n   List  list    Y       (List)\
06:33 nothingmuch for @a ¥ @b ¥ @c
06:33 autrijus and it will Just Work.
06:33 nothingmuch vs. (@a ¥ @b) ¥ @c
06:34 jabbot pugs - 635 - * first approximation of <>
06:34 jabbot pugs - 634 - * use absolute path throughout.
06:34 autrijus a sec.
06:34 autrijus well, currently it is a bug
06:34 autrijus (@a Y @b) Y @c
06:34 autrijus will also be parsed as list-associative
06:34 autrijus so we need to fix that
06:35 autrijus the place to fix this is in Lexer
06:35 nothingmuch hmm
06:36 autrijus that is nontrivial, so I'll just outline the idea
06:36 nothingmuch i think we'll start with @a ¥ @b ¥ @c working correctly
06:36 autrijus you can just assume it's there and write the rest thing :)
06:36 nothingmuch brb, and then we start
06:36 autrijus exactly.
06:37 autrijus food &
06:37 autrijus will be back in a few mins
06:42 nothingmuch ok
06:42 * nothingmuch is now back, but autrijus is gone ;-)
06:42 autrijus I'm still here:)
06:42 autrijus so, added the two lines (Y and Yen) to Prim.hs?
06:43 autrijus as list-associative OPs
06:43 nothingmuch doing now
06:43 nothingmuch unicode inline?
06:43 autrijus they are of the op0 category
06:43 nothingmuch or should i put the code?
06:43 autrijus \000 etc for now
06:43 safrican_ has joined #perl6
06:44 * nothingmuch should look at what | et al do?
06:44 autrijus aw. never mind.
06:44 autrijus just use utf8 ;)
06:44 autrijus time to bite the bullet
06:44 autrijus anyway. so as listOps they take a list.
06:45 nothingmuch the bottom of Prim.hs is percedence order , right?
06:45 autrijus no...
06:45 nothingmuch or can i just slap it anywhere?
06:45 autrijus precedence is now in Parser.hs
06:45 autrijus we should unify them
06:45 autrijus but not for 6.0.11
06:45 nothingmuch ok
06:45 autrijus you can slap it anywhere you feel like
06:46 nothingmuch \\n   List      listY(List)\
06:46 nothingmuch ?
06:46 nothingmuch \\n   List      listÂ¥(List)\
06:46 nothingmuch seems like hypers use utf8
06:47 autrijus I'll handle Parser
06:47 autrijus right just use utf8
06:48 autrijus Y and Yen are now parsed.
06:48 autrijus now just hook them to your "zip" op0
06:48 nothingmuch op0 "Â¥" = return . VList . concat . transpose . map vCast?
06:48 autrijus and that should be all.
06:48 nothingmuch looking at op0 ",", sort of
06:49 autrijus op0 "Y" = op0 "Â¥"
06:49 autrijus that's all
06:49 nothingmuch is my solution OK?
06:49 nothingmuch or should I revert to the old?
06:50 autrijus does transpose stop whenever the shorter list stops?
06:50 nothingmuch no
06:50 nothingmuch it does the right string
06:50 nothingmuch thing
06:50 autrijus yay.
06:50 nothingmuch adding 'import List'
06:50 nothingmuch it's very pretty
06:50 autrijus nono
06:50 autrijus in Internals
06:50 nothingmuch so List.transpose?
06:51 autrijus line 74
06:51 autrijus add "transpost" there
06:51 autrijus add "transpose" there
06:51 autrijus and just use transpose without extra "import List"
06:52 autrijus wow. transpose is really Just The Right Thing
06:52 autrijus I think that's all it takes.
06:54 nothingmuch having trouble with op0 patterns
06:54 jabbot pugs - 636 - * infix Y is now parsed; listOPify thing
06:54 safrican has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
06:54 nothingmuch                 op0 "\194\165" = ...
06:54 nothingmuch                 op0 "Y" = ...
06:55 autrijus does it not work?
06:55 nothingmuch no
06:55 nothingmuch    Warning: Pattern match(es) are overlapped
06:55 nothingmuch             In the definition of `op0': op0 "\194\165" = ...
06:56 autrijus it's not fatal
06:56 autrijus just commit it and we'll deal.
06:56 nothingmuch one second
06:56 nothingmuch running tests
06:59 nothingmuch tests are not passing
07:01 autrijus and i know why
07:01 autrijus luqui broke list assoc a while ago it seems
07:01 autrijus fixing
07:01 perlbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:01 perlbot has joined #perl6
07:02 autrijus fixed.
07:02 autrijus up to r637
07:02 autrijus and things should work.
07:03 nothingmuch Fail: cannot cast as Str: VError "unimplemented listOp: \194\165" (Val (VList [VInt 0,VInt 4,VInt 2,VInt 6]))
07:03 ingy hola
07:03 nothingmuch hola ingy
07:03 nothingmuch why does it want a str?
07:04 jabbot pugs - 639 - * save a pattern match
07:04 jabbot pugs - 638 - Converted pa01 to kwid.
07:04 jabbot pugs - 637 - * resurrect list-associativity evaluatio
07:04 ingy oh nice
07:04 ingy 638 was me of course
07:04 autrijus nothingmuch: try Y first? :)
07:04 autrijus ingy: woot!
07:05 autrijus now we need to talk a bit about doc/ vs docs/ :)
07:05 nothingmuch pugs> (1,2) Y (3, 4)
07:05 nothingmuch *** Error: "unimplemented listOp: Y" at (1, 2, 3, 4)
07:05 ingy we need those kwid tools
07:05 autrijus aww you killed 01Overview.html!
07:05 autrijus people are linking to it :-/
07:05 ingy I have to tune out. see y'all tommorrow. I plan on working on the Kwid ext
07:06 ingy autrijus: undelete it
07:06 autrijus ok.
07:06 ingy I just didn't want skew
07:06 ingy nite all!
07:06 autrijus nite!
07:07 autrijus thanks ingy!
07:07 autrijus nothingmuch: weird. that error only happens when there is no "op0 Y"
07:08 nothingmuch hmm
07:08 nothingmuch is it related to:
07:08 nothingmuch src/Prim.hs:22:
07:08 nothingmuch    Warning: Pattern match(es) are overlapped
07:08 nothingmuch             In the definition of `op0': op0 "\194\165" = ...
07:09 autrijus maybe. comment out the 194 part?
07:09 nothingmuch op Y only now
07:09 autrijus yup
07:12 nothingmuch not working
07:13 autrijus commit?
07:13 autrijus I'll see
07:13 nothingmuch ok
07:14 jabbot pugs - 641 - * fix typo
07:14 jabbot pugs - 640 - undelete
07:14 Schwern has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:15 nothingmuch 642
07:16 autrijus looking
07:17 autrijus ahh.
07:17 autrijus you shoulve'added it _before_ "op0 s"
07:17 autrijus because "op0 s" is the base case.
07:17 nothingmuch heh
07:18 lightstep has joined #perl6
07:18 nothingmuch i think i did something naughty in line 74
07:19 nothingmuch ok, something is starting
07:19 autrijus r643 fixed
07:20 nothingmuch it is giving the first array
07:20 nothingmuch @a ¥ @b ¥ @c -> @a
07:21 autrijus fixing
07:21 autrijus I see. it's already flattened when it's passed in.
07:22 * lightstep notes that -Wall actually warns now
07:22 nothingmuch ?
07:22 autrijus lightstep: 6.4?
07:22 lightstep 6.2.2
07:22 autrijus what warning?
07:22 nothingmuch good morning, lightstep
07:22 lightstep g'morning
07:23 lightstep we're UTC+2
07:23 clkao autrijus: where's your xcin25-utf8 port?
07:23 nothingmuch sorry about 74, autrijus!
07:24 autrijus fixed!
07:24 jabbot pugs - 644 - * unnaughtify lien 74
07:24 jabbot pugs - 643 - * fix ordering; better debug msg for uni
07:24 jabbot pugs - 642 - Attempt at Y and yen operators
07:24 autrijus clkao: wagner.elixus.org/~autrijus/xcin-utf8-ports.tar.gz
07:24 nothingmuch i think tests 2, 3, 5, 6 should pass
07:25 nothingmuch 8, 9 - wrong value, but not the current wrong value
07:25 lightstep the case in readVar (at AST.hs) ignores the possibility of symExp not being a Val
07:25 nothingmuch it'll yield 0, 2, 1, 4, 6, 3, 5, 7, instead of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
07:25 clkao cheers autrijus
07:25 nothingmuch i'll test for that
07:26 nothingmuch err, well, it is tested for, actually
07:26 nothingmuch actually there's no real room for improvement
07:26 autrijus r645, fixed!
07:26 nothingmuch what was the diff?
07:27 nothingmuch err, same results
07:28 nothingmuch ahg
07:28 nothingmuch wait
07:29 nothingmuch zip of two arrays seems to be sort of working
07:29 nothingmuch my @y; eval '@y = (@a ¥ @b) ¥ @c';
07:29 nothingmuch @y eq @a ¥ @b
07:29 nothingmuch maybe it's a parsing error
07:30 nothingmuch my @y; eval '@y = (@a ¥ @b)';
07:30 nothingmuch todo_is(~@y, ~@e, "also with yen char");
07:30 autrijus not an error!
07:30 autrijus    assignment          = := ::= += **= xx=
07:30 autrijus    list item separator , ¥
07:30 nothingmuch ok 2 - also with yen char # TODO
07:31 autrijus see, Y is lower than =
07:31 nothingmuch oh!
07:31 nothingmuch crap
07:31 nothingmuch why the hell is that?
07:31 nothingmuch nevermind
07:31 * nothingmuch hates it when assignment is higher percedence than things you do
07:31 nothingmuch i'll fix the tests
07:32 autrijus ok.
07:32 autrijus brb
07:32 nothingmuch hmm
07:34 jabbot pugs - 646 - Fix test due to Y/= prec issues, and unt
07:34 jabbot pugs - 645 - * fixed op0 parsing... this broke some t
07:34 nothingmuch with 3 parms it does not work
07:34 nothingmuch that is now a bug in the impl
07:35 lightstep why does yen stand for zip?
07:35 nothingmuch because it looks like a zipper
07:35 nothingmuch =D
07:36 traecer has joined #perl6
07:36 nothingmuch ride is
07:37 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
07:38 lightstep do i have to cd to the Test.pm directory to run the tests?
07:43 autrijus lightstep: no, just make install
07:43 autrijus or set PERL6LIB
07:46 lightstep thanks
07:49 lumi There's a hash stringify test that fails because of precedence
07:50 lumi Ghh, or I'm wrong
07:52 autrijus whoa. our new committer, asavige, is pure genius
07:53 * autrijus running his http://wagner.elixus.org/~autrijus/saturn.perl
07:55 lumi I'm wrong, itfails because of junction eq?
07:55 autrijus a sec :)
07:56 obra um. er. fear.
07:56 obra planet6
07:56 autrijus obra: did you run it with perl5?
07:57 obra I have not yet. should I?
07:57 autrijus sure!
07:57 lightstep has quit IRC ("breakfest")
07:57 autrijus please do so.
07:57 obra oh.
07:57 obra wow
07:58 autrijus sheer genius
07:58 obra That's insane
07:58 obra does it work in perl6?
07:58 autrijus perl6 will have much more insane obfus
07:58 autrijus ;)
07:58 autrijus (no)
07:58 obra heh
08:02 lumi Something really broken with junction comparison?
08:03 lumi '5 == (5 | 6)' evals to false
08:03 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:03 * obra -> sleeep
08:03 autrijus I'm fixing them, lumi :)
08:04 lumi I could write a test..
08:05 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:05 autrijus r647.
08:13 autrijus lumi: should be fixed now
08:14 jabbot pugs - 647 - * revive list-based listops
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08:22 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
08:23 nothingmuch so...
08:23 autrijus so, 2 tests are failing
08:23 autrijus #          got: '0 2 1 5 3 4'
08:23 autrijus #     expected: '0 1 2 3 4 5'
08:23 autrijus both reads that
08:23 autrijus you have time to investigate?
08:23 autrijus or should I?
08:23 nothingmuch i will try
08:24 nothingmuch but that i think it's beyond me
08:24 autrijus okie. I'll work some more toward 6.0.11 releng.
08:24 autrijus ok, I'll do that too :)
08:24 nothingmuch i'll keep trying to grok it
08:24 nothingmuch and ask questions
08:24 nothingmuch and in the end i'd like to know what went wrong
08:24 nothingmuch for starters: what is mapM doing in that example?
08:24 autrijus k.
08:24 nothingmuch ensuring that all elems are extracted in order?
08:25 nothingmuch and elem extraction:
08:25 nothingmuch is that the actual array refs?
08:26 autrijus mapM fromValue
08:26 autrijus fromValue is the monad version of castV
08:26 autrijus castV can't read from mutable variables or references to them
08:26 autrijus fromValue could
08:26 autrijus mapM fromValue is like map castV
08:26 autrijus I need to find more food.
08:27 autrijus will be back in a bit.
08:27 sorje has joined #perl6
08:48 traecer has left
09:06 nothingmuch phew
09:07 nothingmuch ok, back to pugs
09:16 vladtz has joined #perl6
09:17 nothingmuch ok
09:17 nothingmuch back again
09:17 nothingmuch and looking at it i see:
09:17 nothingmuch @a ¥  @b ¥ @c makes sense in the way that (@a ¥ @b ) ¥ @c should
09:20 nothingmuch pugs> (0, 4) Y (2, 6) Y (1, 3, 5, 7)
09:20 nothingmuch (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
09:21 nothingmuch pugs> (( 0, 4) Y (2, 6)) Y (1, 3, 5, 7)
09:21 nothingmuch (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
09:21 nothingmuch that makes sense
09:21 nothingmuch but without grouping it should be per n arrays, not per 2 arrays N times
09:22 nothingmuch autrijus: so how do we make the first ¥ be the actual op, and the subsequent ones more like a , argument to it?
09:25 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
09:29 autrijus nothingmuch: fixed!
09:29 autrijus list assoc redistirbution was still looking for args
09:29 autrijus instead of invs
09:29 autrijus and it's now all invs thanks to luqui
09:29 autrijus so that's fixed
09:29 autrijus now of course ((a Y b) Y c) breaks
09:30 Qiang has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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09:32 autrijus we can work around it by decreeing () is a special construct "Paren"
09:32 autrijus or by truly implement the listop parsing foo in Lexer
09:32 autrijus the latter is of course the way to go
09:32 autrijus but I don't think it's release-critical for 6.0.11.
09:33 autrijus so, anyone got any pet things that needs to go into 6.0.11 before I start releng?
09:34 nothingmuch umm
09:34 nothingmuch not me
09:35 autrijus perlbot: seen stevan
09:38 jabbot pugs - 649 - * list association redistribution now re
09:38 jabbot pugs - 648 - -c now mimicks perl5's -c behaviour.
09:38 Khisanth blind bot!
09:40 autrijus bbiab. &
09:40 nothingmuch autrijus: is (@a ¥ @b) ¥ @c a bug or todo?
09:41 autrijus it is a todo.
09:41 nothingmuch ok
09:41 autrijus it's a lexer todo, to be specific.
09:45 vladtz now that Y works I noticed a FIXME in given.t, can I send it to someone?
09:47 lumi There's a typo on the --help
09:48 lumi "it's" should be "its"
09:51 vladtz in zip.t it says: zip(@a;@b), should not the ; ba a , ??
09:51 vladtz Synopsis syas ,
09:57 iblechbot has joined #perl6
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10:12 vladtz S03 says , S04 syzs ; which one is correct,  semicolon looks odd to me
10:14 tiw has joined #perl6
10:15 tiw d
10:16 tiw perl 5 style sub seem do not work
10:16 nothingmuch vladtz: luke palmer says it needs to be ;
10:18 tiw sub s{say $_[0]; say $_[1];} just print the first arg.
10:19 vladtz OK, more reason to use Y
10:19 nothingmuch uhuh =)
10:21 nothingmuch vladtz: r650 makes given.t use ¥
10:21 nothingmuch tiw: do you know if that's tested?
10:21 tiw i didn't find it in test
10:21 nothingmuch i'll try to write it
10:21 nothingmuch basically:
10:22 nothingmuch my @result; sub s { push @result, $_[0]; push @result $_[1] }
10:22 nothingmuch s(<foo bar>)
10:22 vladtz Oops, I menat: I did the fix, not fix it :-(
10:23 nothingmuch todo_is(@result, <foo bar>, "...")?
10:23 nothingmuch oops! sorry...
10:23 nothingmuch in that case
10:23 nothingmuch sign up for rt.openfoundry.org access
10:23 nothingmuch and become a comitter
10:23 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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10:24 tiw ok, i will do it
10:26 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
10:27 jabbot pugs - 650 - Use yen operator to simplify testing
10:29 clkao yen operator
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10:30 nothingmuch clkao: huh?
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10:32 theorb Morning, all.
10:33 nothingmuch hola orb
10:38 theorb http://desert-island.dynodns.org/perl/prims.html should now be up-to-date.
10:42 nothingmuch theorb: i can't do a proper lookup on that
10:42 nothingmuch is the TLD correct?
10:43 theorb http://desert-island.dynodns.net/perl/prims.html should now be up-to-date.
10:43 theorb You'd think after all this time, I'd remember what the TLD is.
10:43 theorb Perhaps I should just get a dynodns.org account additionally.
10:44 nothingmuch wtf?
10:44 nothingmuch left-associative infix
10:44 nothingmuch List
10:44 nothingmuch zip
10:44 nothingmuch (
10:44 nothingmuch List
10:44 nothingmuch ($List zip $List) zip $Lis
10:47 theorb \\n   List      left    zip     (List)\
10:48 theorb There's some that are known wrong... but that's not one of them... that's a very odd definition line.
10:48 * nothingmuch blames it on autrijus
10:48 nothingmuch *shrug*
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10:55 theorb BBIAB.
10:56 theorb has quit IRC ("leaving")
10:58 tiw i have change subroutine.t : -plan 12;
10:58 tiw +plan 13;
10:58 tiw sub foobar ($var) {
10:58 tiw     return $var;
10:58 tiw @@ -70,3 +70,11 @@
10:58 tiw is($_, "-wibble-", 'sub closures close');
10:58 tiw $_ = $block.();
10:58 tiw is($_, "-quux-", 'block closures close');
10:58 tiw +
10:58 tiw +my @result;
10:58 tiw +sub perl5sub {
10:58 tiw +    push @result , $_[0];
10:58 tiw +    push @result, $_[1];
10:58 tiw +}
10:58 tiw +perl5sub(<foo bar>);
10:58 tiw +todo_is(@result, <foo bar>, "use \@_ in sub");
10:58 tiw is this ok?
10:59 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste?
10:59 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
10:59 nothingmuch you should use that normally
10:59 nothingmuch now i'll read through
10:59 nothingmuch it looks good, tiw
10:59 tiw thanks
10:59 nothingmuch only id use single quotes
11:00 nothingmuch 'use @_ in sub'
11:00 nothingmuch do you have commit access?
11:00 nothingmuch ooh, we're going out to lunch, appearantly
11:00 tiw i hava sign up in rt.openfoundry.org
11:00 Juerd [http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=439079|That time of the year again!]
11:01 nothingmuch tiw: so you can just type 'svn ci t/op/subroutine.t'
11:01 nothingmuch and type in your login/password
11:01 tiw ok, i do it
11:01 nothingmuch or wherever subroutine.t is
11:01 nothingmuch great!
11:01 nothingmuch see you guys later
11:01 nothingmuch lunch &
11:02 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
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11:11 fayland has joined #perl6
11:13 tiw KVIrc 2.1.3 'Renaissance'
11:20 pasteling "tiw" at 85.74.5.210 pasted "a test ignore it" (1 line, 16B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8138
11:29 fayland has quit IRC ()
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11:36 pasteling Someone at 85.74.5.210 pasted "another test, please ignore it" (80 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8140
11:44 tiw Problem about commit access: i can login rt.openfoundry.org, but can not commit file with svn :(
12:01 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
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12:14 nothingmuch tiw: what error do you get?
12:14 * castaway_ waves at nm
12:14 nothingmuch hola castaway_!
12:15 castaway_ is now known as castaway
12:15 castaway (bah)
12:15 * nothingmuch ate about 2.5 liters of salad
12:15 castaway saladcomes in liters?
12:15 nothingmuch well, it's harder to estimate the mass/weight
12:15 castaway true
12:15 nothingmuch i think it was around 1 kilo
12:16 castaway excet that a liter is 1kilo weight.. so that must have been 2.5Kg
12:17 nothingmuch well, if it were that dense, maybe
12:17 nothingmuch but there was some grated salty cheese
12:17 nothingmuch which is more volumenous than it's normal form
12:17 nothingmuch and lots of lettuce
12:17 nothingmuch and onions, in rings, which is not a dense form
12:18 nothingmuch cucumber and tomatoe are probably .9x mass/volume of water in the shape they were there
12:18 nothingmuch and lots of yellow pepper
12:18 nothingmuch maybe a little less
12:18 nothingmuch maybe it was more than 1k
12:18 nothingmuch i think it's more logical that it was less than 2.5l
12:19 nothingmuch given the size of the bowl, and the size of a 0.5 liter bottle of water before me it seems to make more sense
12:19 nothingmuch anywho...
12:19 nothingmuch tiw: please mention my name if you reply, the IRC window will probably be in the bg, and mentioning me will cause it to popup
12:19 nothingmuch ciao!
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12:28 tiw nothingmuch: something like: svn: MKACTIVITY  result  ?/pugs/!svn/act/8e13e8ea-2ff2-0310-80ad-e9d419cfe8d5?:  fail authorize (http://svn.openfoundry.org)
12:28 nothingmuch hmm
12:29 nothingmuch what is your login?
12:29 nothingmuch to rt?
12:29 tiw nothingmuch: you mean my login name? tiw
12:30 nothingmuch ah
12:30 nothingmuch it's not listed in the project staff
12:30 nothingmuch err, get hcchien, autrijus or bestian to invite you
12:31 tiw just ask them to do that?
12:31 nothingmuch this will probably be done immediately once one of them wakes up
12:31 nothingmuch yes
12:31 * nothingmuch thinks that more inviters/project admins should be made
12:31 nothingmuch to cover more time zones
12:31 nothingmuch luqui and ingy would probably be willing and trusted
12:31 * nothingmuch nominates
12:32 tiw i see, thanks. Are you in Eu?
12:32 nothingmuch i'm from israel
12:32 nothingmuch so time zone wise, you could say i'm from eastern europe
12:32 nothingmuch nearly the same longitude as moscos
12:32 nothingmuch w
12:33 tiw i'm in German
12:34 tiw we are closer as autrijus
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12:55 y6cmE has left
12:59 autrijus greetings /\/\s
13:00 autrijus S29++ # jfdi
13:02 nothingmuch autrijus: open up commit access for tiw
13:02 tiw autrijus: can you add me to the project list?
13:02 autrijus sure sec
13:03 nothingmuch so that it is not limited to a certain time zone's day
13:03 nothingmuch daytime
13:03 nothingmuch and also, please consider letting people like ingy and luqui and maybe someone from europe the ability to do this
13:03 autrijus sure.
13:04 autrijus will talk about that on yapc::taipei
13:04 nothingmuch goody
13:04 autrijus tiw: welcome aboard
13:04 nothingmuch Juerd will probably be willing to do it too
13:04 nothingmuch he is from nl
13:04 tiw autrijus: thanks
13:04 nothingmuch so i think that covers everything
13:05 nothingmuch wtf is s29?
13:06 nothingmuch and also, autrijus++ for fixing last two tests in for.t
13:07 theorbtwo Allo, autrijus.
13:07 autrijus yo theorbtwo
13:07 theorbtwo Have you seen http://desert-island.dynodns.net/perl/prims.html ?
13:07 jabbot pugs - 651 - add a test for using arguments with perl
13:07 autrijus yes I had.
13:07 autrijus you++
13:08 autrijus I wonder if you can massage it into proper perl6 sub signature
13:08 theorbtwo I rather wonder as well.
13:09 theorbtwo But I think I want to try to get it to know the precidence order first, which I'm not sure how to do.
13:09 autrijus you look at Parser.hs table.
13:10 theorbtwo Right, but how do I get stuff out of there?
13:10 theorbtwo ghci won't even show it, because it's not in the Show class.
13:11 madhouse has quit IRC ()
13:11 autrijus from line 456 on
13:11 autrijus you can just slurp them into a string
13:11 autrijus and parse them as a string ;)
13:12 autrijus wouldn't be hard ;)
13:12 theorbtwo That's what I'm doing with Prims.hs now.
13:12 autrijus sure. it's good enough for booting.
13:12 theorbtwo I was worried if that was all of them, though.
13:12 autrijus once you have proper signatures
13:12 autrijus then well, we can use that for the table instead
13:12 theorbtwo And what the "Not yet transcribed" comment means.
13:12 autrijus and all will be joy
13:12 theorbtwo Oh!
13:12 theorbtwo I see what you mean now.
13:13 theorbtwo I was just thinking of this in terms of a reference.
13:13 autrijus oh. "Not yet transcribed" means that the things below is now yet transcribed to proper perl6 sigs!
13:13 theorbtwo Aaah!
13:13 autrijus i.e. that comment means "theorbtwo was not here"
13:13 autrijus or something.
13:13 theorbtwo Heh.
13:14 autrijus so the idea is to take that table and primdecl
13:14 autrijus and generate things in builtins.pod format
13:14 autrijus or an equally good format
13:14 autrijus kind of like a .h file
13:14 autrijus err builtins.kwid
13:14 autrijus and then use _that_ to generate decl and prec
13:14 autrijus and throw the old things away.
13:15 autrijus that way we can kill the adhoc decl parser
13:15 autrijus and use the same parser as the one we use to parser userdefined routines.
13:15 autrijus I hope I'm making sense :)
13:15 theorbtwo I think so.
13:15 theorbtwo You want to convert the existing lists of primitives into standard perl6 sub declarations.
13:16 theorbtwo Then implement them with inline haskell or something, and consider that file implicitly used.
13:16 theorbtwo Hm, possibly not inline haskell, since eval STRING would be hugely impure.
13:17 theorbtwo Inline AST, then.
13:17 metaperl has joined #perl6
13:17 theorbtwo This, and my AUTHORS script, are currently rather ad-hoc perl5 -- is there anywhere they go in the repo?
13:17 autrijus put them to utils/
13:18 autrijus mk a new dir
13:18 theorbtwo Cool.
13:18 theorbtwo Working on one of my other projects for a bit, though.
13:18 autrijus that's fine. take yer time :)
13:24 autrijus ooh.
13:24 autrijus =begin testing method after othermethod Some::Class 25
13:24 autrijus (supposedly new Test::Inline syntax)
13:24 autrijus ingy: inline FITish things in kwid makes sense to you?
13:24 nothingmuch Test::Inline gives me the creeps
13:25 nothingmuch reduces readability by a lot
13:25 nothingmuch since you have to skip, and skip, and skip, and skip
13:25 nothingmuch and you can't organize tests well
13:25 autrijus unless your editor has folding...
13:25 nothingmuch mine does
13:25 nothingmuch but i never get along with it
13:25 autrijus oh. folding++
13:25 nothingmuch i might be retarded though ;-)
13:25 * autrijus likes folding.
13:26 * rgs likes folding too, but almost never uses it :(
13:26 autrijus hi rgs :)
13:26 nothingmuch will perl6 support non upwards flowing ranges?
13:27 nothingmuch i usually like to say @a[2 .. -3]
13:27 nothingmuch but can't do it
13:27 nothingmuch since it makes no sense
13:27 nothingmuch except that it does
13:27 rgs I think that python supports that
13:27 rgs yup, it does
13:28 rgs >>> x = [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
13:28 rgs >>> print x[2:-3]
13:28 rgs [3, 4, 5, 6, 7]
13:28 nothingmuch 2 1 0 -1 -2 -3
13:28 nothingmuch and if not in the context of array subscripts, i'd like it to do something like:
13:28 nothingmuch because that's also sometimes useful
13:28 nothingmuch and reverse(-3 .. 2) is just, err, unnecessary
13:28 rgs I don't think so
13:28 rgs but I'm not familiar with Perl 6 slice notation
13:29 autrijus haskell has it as
13:29 autrijus [2,1 .. -3]
13:29 autrijus which I really like, but won't work in p6
13:30 nothingmuch why not, actually?
13:30 nothingmuch as a special case?
13:31 autrijus no, because it conflicts with splice syntax
13:31 autrijus @array[2, 1..-3]
13:32 rgs what's the splice syntax ?
13:32 autrijus s/splice/slice/
13:32 autrijus @array[2, 1..-3] # means @array[2], @array[1] ...
13:32 autrijus so can't steal the comma to mean step-by
13:33 autrijus so in p6 it is
13:33 autrijus @array[1..-3:by(-1)]
13:33 autrijus not very sexy
13:33 autrijus but works
13:33 nothingmuch which is actually 1 0 -1 -2 -3?
13:33 autrijus aye
13:33 autrijus to get 2, use
13:33 autrijus @array[1^..-3:by(-1)]
13:34 nothingmuch so how do i do something like:
13:34 rgs hmm, and to get what python does ?
13:34 nothingmuch (isn't that 0?)
13:34 nothingmuch [1, 2, ... , -4 -3]?
13:34 autrijus oh. sorry. that will start from 0.
13:34 rgs yes. Lazy extensino
13:34 autrijus [1^..^-3:by(-1)] ?
13:35 nothingmuch nay nay
13:35 rgs ^-3 ? this confuses me
13:35 autrijus oh never mind
13:35 autrijus I was misparsing you all along
13:35 nothingmuch i mean where -3 is really (+@a - 3)
13:35 autrijus right right.
13:35 * rgs thinks his brain begins to be python-infected
13:35 autrijus sorry
13:35 nothingmuch [ 1 .. (+a - 3) ] <-- this does it
13:35 nothingmuch but i'd like 1 .. -3 to dwim
13:35 autrijus yeah but that's sad
13:35 autrijus according to lwall the range constructs a range object
13:36 autrijus so maybe range object behaves weirdly in a slice context.
13:36 autrijus weirdly as in dwimmy.
13:36 * nothingmuch hopes that is the case
13:36 autrijus not seen it raised before.
13:36 autrijus throw it to the snake pit that is p6l?
13:36 rgs :))
13:36 nothingmuch @a[0 ^.. -Inf] == reverse(@a)
13:36 nothingmuch =D
13:36 autrijus yow =D
13:36 autrijus -Inf, oh my
13:43 autrijus woot. I lured Alias into committership.
13:44 autrijus PPI-based p5-to-p6
13:44 autrijus I think is very feasible.
13:45 theorbtwo Great!
13:45 rgs larry doesn't seem to think so
13:46 autrijus he base it on 90% mark.
13:46 autrijus I'm happy with 50%.
13:46 autrijus and lots of runtime magic.
13:46 theorbtwo Pretty much anything is better then 0%.
13:46 rgs larry wants 100% :)
13:46 autrijus I think the idea is more of a partial recompilation/reparse
13:46 autrijus i.e. PPI gets the tokens in place
13:46 rgs PPI is already very good
13:46 nothingmuch rgs: 100% is ponie, i think
13:46 autrijus and we can selectively reparse p5.
13:47 autrijus that way we can put more burden in the runtime helper libraries
13:47 rgs nothingmuch: no, ponie is more than 100% : it ports XS too...
13:47 autrijus instead of on the parser at once
13:47 autrijus rgs: only perl parses Perl
13:47 rgs autrijus: that's larry's plan.
13:47 autrijus so anything not based on perl trunk is, by definition, broken
13:47 autrijus but I can very well live with that.
13:48 rgs anyway we'll see what larry comes up with
13:48 autrijus I don't really care about having to write in some more streamlined (i.e. always use strict)
13:48 autrijus fashion in order to be fed to p5top6.
13:48 autrijus in that case PPI+Parser/Perl5.hs is Good Enough (tm)
13:49 theorbtwo I'm certainly fine with that provision.
13:49 autrijus anyway iff alias is interested, we'll figure something out :)
13:49 theorbtwo I would think B::-based translation makes more sense, though.
13:49 autrijus aye. that is another route.
13:50 autrijus but that means we'll probably have to emulate all the p5 runtime OPs.
13:50 autrijus whilst with PPI we can operate at a coarse-grained level
13:51 autrijus but it's all handwaving before alias hops here and starts coding :)
13:51 theorbtwo Oh, I meant something like a B::Deparse that output p6 code rather then p5 code.
13:51 Steve_p heh
13:51 rgs theorbtwo: B:: lose info about BEGIN blocks and other stuff
13:51 theorbtwo Possibly calling functions in Perl5::* instead of builtins, at least in some cases.
13:51 autrijus theorbtwo: sure, but the B::* backend operates on p5 op level
13:51 Steve_p like constants
13:51 autrijus including all its stack semantics
13:52 rgs actually larry is patching perl 5 itself to produce perl 6 code
13:52 autrijus which is the Correct layer.
13:52 autrijus why go above the reification layer when you can instrument the runtime?
13:52 autrijus and I'm sure larry is the best one to do that
13:52 rgs I had, 2 or 3 years ago, the idea to modify the output of perl -Dp, to get it machine-parseable
13:52 autrijus he wrote all of it anyway :)
13:52 rgs -DpT even
13:52 autrijus <- mucking with perl5 OpTree != my forte
13:53 rgs and that's basically what larry does
13:53 autrijus nod.
13:53 rgs autrijus: you know me, I like mucking with optrees :)
13:53 autrijus that's why we pay you Big Money and make you the pumpking! :)
13:53 rgs Big Money ?
13:53 autrijus like, 0e12 or something :)
13:54 Steve_p perlbot, Nicholas?
13:54 rgs so far I only had a couple of beers :)
13:54 rgs which I'm very grateful for
13:55 rgs hi Steve_p
13:55 Steve_p hi rgs :)
13:55 Steve_p perlbot doesn't say the right response yet ;)
13:56 rgs heh
13:56 * rgs out to lunch &
13:57 jabbot pugs - 652 - Adding Algorithm::Dependency for porting
13:58 safrican_ is now known as safrican
13:58 autrijus I asked alias to hop in here soon
13:58 Alias_ has joined #perl6
13:58 Alias_ dum de dum
13:58 autrijus the plan is to gradually p6ify Algorithm-Dependency
13:58 autrijus oh. hi!
13:59 Alias_ As the log message says, it's reasonably large, a little trick, and has no external dependencies whatsoever
13:59 Alias_ s/trick/tricky/
13:59 autrijus Alias_: so I trust the A::Dep doesn't really need external deps
13:59 autrijus yup.
13:59 Alias_ Nope
13:59 autrijus and has well-defined tests.
13:59 Alias_ It's a "green box"
13:59 autrijus so, ideal for p6ification
13:59 Alias_ yep
13:59 Alias_ Shitloads of tight testing, and no deps
14:00 autrijus whose code was it?
14:00 autrijus I see you're listed as the "maintainer"
14:00 Alias_ oh... I tag that on everything
14:00 Alias_ in case there are two authors
14:01 Alias_ Most of that stuff is automated these days
14:01 Alias_ Got sick of maintaining janatorial stuff for 60 modules
14:01 Alias_ :)
14:01 autrijus har :)
14:01 autrijus can you write a call-for-p6ifier announcement on p6c?
14:01 rgs Alias_: btw, side note : if you like dependency solvers, you should have a look at http://smartpm.org/
14:01 autrijus that will likely help to draw in additional people to work on p6ification :)
14:01 * rgs really off now &
14:02 autrijus Alias_: i.e. extoll the virtue of this green box thing :)
14:02 theorbtwo "green box"?
14:02 Alias_ modules on my big module dep graph get coloured green when they have no non-core deps
14:02 autrijus theorbtwo: no external dependencies; tightly tested
14:03 autrijus genuinely useful
14:03 autrijus (for many things)
14:03 autrijus and small enough :)
14:03 Alias_ ironically doesn't support versioned dependencies :)
14:03 Alias_ ... yet
14:03 autrijus it's the same virtue as Locale-KeyedText really.
14:03 autrijus p6c's posting address is perl6-compiler@perl.org and subscription address is perl6-compiler-subscribe@perl.org
14:04 autrijus it's not as high-volume as p6l :)
14:04 Alias_ eep, wrong window :)
14:04 Alias_ I'm on enough mailing lists thanks :)
14:04 autrijus you can post without subscribing and tell people to cc you if they have questions, then.
14:05 theorbtwo There's an NNTP server that's nice for occasional reading.
14:05 autrijus if you really don't want to do that I'll try posting for you, but that is not as convincing :)
14:06 metaperl I was able to post via nntp.perl.org
14:06 metaperl without joining p6c or p6l
14:06 * metaperl hugs Gnus
14:06 metaperl :)
14:06 autrijus that... works too :)
14:07 autrijus Alias_: can PPI serialize to something else than perl code or internal data structure dumps?
14:07 Alias_ I you want
14:07 Alias_ If you want
14:07 autrijus instrument PPI::Dumper?
14:08 xern has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
14:09 autrijus the first step is to for haskell to load PPI dump tree
14:09 autrijus we can certainly write a custom p5 dump parser
14:09 autrijus or yaml parser
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14:10 autrijus Alias_: will it be lossy if we instrument PPI::Dumper to dump yaml?
14:10 autrijus i.e. is there self-cyclic blessed substructures?
14:10 autrijus if not, yaml may be the best way
14:11 * nothingmuch just spend 30 minutes going through a 50 line perl file
14:11 nothingmuch reading every char
14:11 Alias_ p6c email sent
14:11 nothingmuch 100 times at least
14:11 castaway has left
14:11 nothingmuch trying to figure out where the fscking bug is
14:11 autrijus p5 source -> PPI -> PPI::Document yaml -> Yaml parser -> Haskell YAML AST -> Pugs AST -> runtime
14:11 nothingmuch when it turns out the CSV excel imports is just bad
14:11 nothingmuch and the input is really at fault
14:11 Alias_ PPI::Document is non-cyclic
14:11 autrijus woot!
14:12 autrijus good good
14:12 nothingmuch i think microsoft owes me about 100 hours of my life, and I don't even work on windows
14:12 Alias_ Theres a %PPI::Element::_PARENT hash that does refaddr-indexed upward refs
14:12 nothingmuch Alias_: i think refaddr is flakey on 5.9
14:12 nothingmuch i tried using it a while
14:12 autrijus will check w/ ingy when he's up.
14:12 nothingmuch but stuff got a bit fooey
14:12 autrijus now really food. &
14:12 nothingmuch so i wrote Tie::RefAddr::Weak to complement Tie::RefAddr
14:13 nothingmuch otherwise, just use overload::StrVal
14:13 scw Hi, pugs now view '(say "something" if 1)' as valid expression, but should it?
14:14 Alias_ autrijus: in fact, it should dump to YAML quite normally
14:14 nothingmuch scw: i think autrijus is keeping it as long as larry doesn't say to remove it
14:18 scw Oh, so it is already on mailing list? sorry for not checking malil these two days :)
14:50 ingy has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
14:56 Alias_ autrijus: OK, gotta run, tired. But for the record, if you simply throw a PPI::Document object at YAML, it should dump cleanly. The rest is up to you :)
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15:59 autrijus scw: no, it's only in #perl6 I think; nobody bothered to check p6c
15:59 autrijus scw: you can certainly ask on p6c; that may help
16:00 nothingmuch blackout in -1 minute
16:00 * nothingmuch wonders if they can shutdown all the machines in time
16:03 lightstep has joined #perl6
16:05 nothingmuch has left
16:07 jabbot pugs - 653 - * GHC 6.4 compilation sanity; more relen
16:07 ingy has joined #perl6
16:07 autrijus hi ingy!
16:07 ingy hi autrijus
16:08 ingy good things are happening I see
16:08 autrijus yuppers
16:09 hcchien new module in repository. :)
16:09 * rgs notices Data::COW
16:10 ingy hi hcchien
16:11 hcchien ingy: hola
16:12 ingy Algorithm-Dependency is Perl5?
16:12 ingy why is it in modules?
16:13 autrijus ingy: because I invited alias to check in
16:13 autrijus and try to do it piecemeal
16:13 autrijus instead of only check in after it's all p6ized
16:13 autrijus alias posted to p6c talking about that.
16:13 autrijus it will take some time to get thru.
16:13 autrijus it has no deps, and tests are well-covered
16:13 autrijus so I gather it makes sense to do a free-for-all p6ization in modules
16:13 autrijus just as a social experiment.
16:14 ingy ok
16:14 autrijus (modules/ is not installed anyway)
16:14 ingy sure
16:15 lightstep Makefile is now broken (8 spaces instead of a tab)
16:15 ingy I am torn on whether to work on a perl5 or haskell kwid parser today...
16:15 autrijus lightstep: aw. my bad.
16:15 autrijus fixing
16:15 autrijus lightstep: or can you fix it real quick?
16:15 lightstep i don't know makemaker
16:15 ingy I can do it
16:15 autrijus ok. will do
16:16 autrijus ingy++
16:16 autrijus I'm working on changelog.
16:23 ingy wow. all tests passing again
16:24 ingy is a realease imminent?
16:24 autrijus it is... but I made tests pass by implementing them
16:24 autrijus not by TODO them.
16:24 autrijus a release is due in an hour
16:25 theorbtwo Oh, I should put my p5 scripts in the repo, then.
16:26 autrijus theorbtwo: right, until/
16:26 autrijus err
16:26 autrijus util/
16:27 jabbot pugs - 654 - Somehow tabs got changed to spaces in Ma
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16:36 jabbot has joined #perl6
16:37 jabbot pugs - 655 - Rather ad-hoc p5 scripts to make a HTML
16:37 autrijus theorbtwo++
16:37 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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16:38 autrijus (!)
16:38 autrijus # fixauthors.pl
16:38 autrijus somehow gugod appeared twice in AUTHORS.
16:39 theorbtwo Oh, odd.
16:39 theorbtwo With different romanized names.
16:39 theorbtwo But the same Han name.
16:40 autrijus what's with the irc nicks?
16:40 autrijus looks weird
16:41 lightstep why isn't AUTHORS edited manually? isn't there a closed group that grants contributorship?
16:41 autrijus lightstep: syntax error, I can't parse that questions
16:42 ingy autrijus: I think perl6 should install html docs instead of just man pages
16:42 * rgs ponders switching to UTF-8 for perl 5's AUTHORS file
16:42 lightstep if "author" is same as "contributor", and contributors are added manually to the system, why isn't AUTHORS updated manually too?
16:42 autrijus ingy: I happen to agree.
16:42 ingy I'll work on the doc fu today
16:42 metaperl has joined #perl6
16:43 autrijus lightstep: AUTHORS is updated manutally.
16:43 autrijus that script just fills in metadata from cpan.
16:43 lightstep oh
16:43 theorbtwo James "theorbtwo" Mastros is the normal way of writing nicknames with proper names, at least in English.
16:43 theorbtwo Could have added a column just for it.
16:43 autrijus okay. what if the nick agrees with cpan id?
16:43 theorbtwo Or switched to something like linux's AUTHORS format.
16:44 theorbtwo Then I left it out.
16:44 autrijus what is the linux author format?
16:44 theorbtwo Each person gets a \n\n-seperated stanza, with each line having a single-letter prefix for the data-type.
16:47 autrijus hm, ok.
16:47 xerox autrijus, what parser do you use in pugs?
16:47 autrijus xerox: src/Rules/
16:47 jabbot pugs - 656 - * correct some AUTHORS misentries
16:47 autrijus err, src/Rule
16:48 autrijus which is based on parsec.
16:48 autrijus theorbtwo: ok. I think that works better. you want to hack toward that?
16:48 autrijus I'll use your current format  for 6.0.11.
16:48 theorbtwo Nod.  Will in a while; going to get back to my book.
16:50 xerox theorbtwo, reading or writing it? :D
16:50 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
16:50 theorbtwo Reading it.
16:51 xerox hi nothingmuch :D
16:51 theorbtwo Star trek: Stargazer: Oblivion.
16:51 nothingmuch hi xerox, all!
16:52 theorbtwo Hi, nothingmuch.
16:52 * nothingmuch can only remember really having liked one sci fi thingy... the 5th element
16:52 lumi Hi nothing
16:52 nothingmuch and scifi is not it's point =)
16:52 lumi Well, it was good
16:53 nothingmuch everything else I tend to look over again, and, err, not appreciate as much
16:53 ingy autrijus: I think ActiveState does lib/bin/man/html for install, so I'll copy that style
16:53 autrijus ingy: also did you read about my reservation for having a core doc/ location?
16:53 autrijus it's not proper module style
16:53 lightstep is Alan Sung gone?
16:54 autrijus lightstep: he is Chen-Lung Song on cpan
16:54 autrijus the cpan name is considered canonical
16:54 autrijus Cheng-Lung Song, even
16:54 ingy I don't get it?
16:54 ingy s/?//
16:54 autrijus ingy: ok. CPAN modules don't have doc/
16:54 autrijus if they have pod, they put it in lib/
16:54 ingy true yes
16:54 autrijus so doc/ is a p5 core special case
16:54 autrijus well I hate that special case
16:55 autrijus because it complicates matters
16:55 ingy I never suggested doc/ in modules
16:55 autrijus I love your idea that the core should not have modules of its own
16:55 autrijus everything should be in ext/
16:55 ingy only in top level to match perl core pod/
16:55 autrijus formatted like true modules
16:55 autrijus in that sense, I propose that we split all the docs into ext/*/doc
16:55 autrijus or ext/*/kwid/
16:55 autrijus or ext/*/whatever/
16:56 autrijus instead of a toplevel doc/
16:56 ingy fine
16:56 autrijus so perlkwid.kwid really belonds to ext/Kwid/
16:56 autrijus etc. that has a good effect of making the core "merely a bundle"
16:56 ingy I see, because you want to continue thinking of pugs as simply a Perl5 module :P
16:56 autrijus which is what I've wished all along
16:56 autrijus no, I want to think pugs as a simple perl6 runtime :)
16:56 autrijus i.e. I want perlkwid.kwid etc be shared among perl6 environments.
16:57 autrijus even if pugs ends up becoming the only perl6 implementation, it also has the good effect of cleaner layout
16:57 autrijus versus the sick special-casing of doc => lib/pod/
16:57 autrijus which is sick sick sick.
16:57 jabbot pugs - 657 - * more fixes to AUTHORS
16:58 cls_bsd oh great!!
16:59 ingy putting perlkwid.kwid in ext/Kwid makes little sense to me. how about ext/doc
17:00 ingy there are 108 perl*.pod that need to be integrated
17:00 ingy plus more I'm sure
17:00 ingy you want a module for each of those?
17:01 autrijus I'm not even sure that we want to keep this perl*.kwid format :)
17:01 ingy ?
17:01 jabbot ingy: ¬O³o¼Ëª±¶Ü? o_oa
17:01 autrijus never mind.
17:01 autrijus I was thinking along the lines of "pugsdoc Kwid::Syntax"
17:01 ingy sure
17:01 autrijus because perlsyn etc is now called synopses
17:02 autrijus so the 108 things can really be integrated along the
17:02 autrijus ext/Synopses/
17:02 ingy of course that will be in ext/Kwid
17:02 autrijus etc lines.
17:02 autrijus I don't think we want to transliterate the perl*.pod just now.
17:02 autrijus but if that is the case, sure, ext/coredocs/ or just ext/doc/ makes sense.
17:02 ingy ok
17:03 ingy I'll work on it. we can always refactor
17:03 autrijus I think we keep it simple for now.
17:03 autrijus yeah. thanks! ingy++
17:03 theorbtwo ext/Perl6/Apoclypse01.kwid ?
17:03 autrijus something like that, yes
17:03 ingy gotta run&
17:03 autrijus ext/Pugs/Apocrypha01.kwid
17:03 autrijus ext/Apocrypha/01Overview.kwid
17:03 autrijus etc etc.
17:04 autrijus it's all negotiatable :)
17:04 ingy I'll start with ext/Apocrypha
17:04 ingy oops
17:04 ingy gotta run&
17:04 autrijus ok, and move the two doc/*.kwid into it.
17:04 autrijus uh. ok. run then
17:04 autrijus I'll move it myself :)
17:05 lightstep isn't it ext/Pugs/Apocryphon01.kwid ?
17:06 autrijus it is.
17:06 autrijus unless it is ext/Pugs/docs/Apocryphon01.kwid
17:06 autrijus or ext/Pugs/lib/Apocryphon01.kwid
17:06 autrijus I am not sure we want to split lib with docs.
17:06 autrijus I kind of like perl5's treatment of making those two under lib/
17:06 autrijus what do you think?
17:07 autrijus since ingy is away I'll move it myself now :)
17:11 pasteling "gugod" at 61.64.173.217 pasted "Tibeten characters" (1 line, 29B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8143
17:11 gugod autrijus: can you see those characters ? I have a unicode_varnames.t ready
17:11 gugod that's 123456789 in tibeten :P
17:11 nothingmuch gugod: please checkin, i'd like to contribue hebrew =)
17:11 nothingmuch the Ord haskell class if a class of types whose values have some kind of order?
17:12 gugod alright
17:12 theorbtwo I see them.
17:12 lightstep nm, yes
17:12 theorbtwo Yeah, nm.
17:12 gugod just wondering if perl6 should handle complex combining characters as varnames
17:12 nothingmuch huh?
17:13 nothingmuch gugod: as I understand it, it should
17:13 gugod that sounds awesome
17:13 theorbtwo gugod, IIRC, Larry said somewhere that it considers them as a sequence of unicode characters -- that is, it will, iff they're always written the same.
17:13 autrijus gugod: sure, it should. make judicious use of eval"" and todo
17:13 autrijus and have fun
17:14 gugod I committed
17:14 theorbtwo Add a check with a unicode sub name there as well?
17:16 nothingmuch err, it doesn't compile
17:16 nothingmuch should it?
17:17 nothingmuch or is it untested?
17:17 jabbot pugs - 658 - unicode variname name
17:18 ati has joined #perl6
17:19 autrijus greetings ati
17:19 gugod should I make them all inside eval() so that those ok() can all be invoked ?
17:20 autrijus gugod: give me a min
17:21 ati has quit IRC ("ERC v1.1 (IRC client for Emacs) - mailto://abel@bfr.co.il")
17:21 nothingmuch gugod: i'm fixing as we speek
17:21 nothingmuch speak
17:22 nothingmuch i have a version that passes
17:22 nothingmuch and also tests hebrew
17:22 nothingmuch and english
17:22 nothingmuch and umlauts
17:22 nothingmuch and french
17:22 nothingmuch and arabic
17:22 nothingmuch that's as much as I can type
17:22 lightstep what about malformed codepoint sequences?
17:22 nothingmuch lightstep: i think that's a file corruption error, perhaps
17:23 nothingmuch not even syntax
17:23 autrijus yup.
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17:36 lightstep is now known as lightstep_eating
17:37 jabbot pugs - 660 - rename because it should be more than ju
17:37 jabbot pugs - 659 - Some more varnames
17:40 nothingmuch autrijus: when are you going to fix $CALLER::POSITION?
17:40 autrijus nothingmuch: I'll look at it now
17:40 autrijus but I'm still in utf8
17:40 nothingmuch goody
17:40 autrijus most of your tests passes.
17:40 nothingmuch there's a test for it
17:40 autrijus I mean unicode.t
17:40 autrijus fixing the rest.
17:41 * nothingmuch wonders whether to try things like sub π { 3.141 }
17:41 nothingmuch sub µ ($x) { $x/1000 }
17:41 nothingmuch err, *
17:42 nothingmuch my $micro = µ$unit;
17:42 * nothingmuch wants to port Data::Dimensions to p6
17:43 nothingmuch autrijus: t/magicals/caller_pos.t
17:43 autrijus danke.
17:43 * nothingmuch happy
17:43 autrijus hm? :)
17:46 autrijus only arabic fails.
17:46 autrijus for some reason.
17:46 autrijus you sure the arabic is legal?
17:46 nothingmuch the arabic is crap
17:46 wilx Right to left issues? :)
17:46 nothingmuch i don't know it
17:46 nothingmuch i just opened the unicode palette
17:47 nothingmuch and stuck letters i sort of still remembered in
17:47 nothingmuch but IIRC arabic has no funny constraints
17:47 autrijus no, not RTL
17:47 nothingmuch wilx: it's all logical order anyway
17:47 nothingmuch and hebrew does work
17:47 autrijus I pasted from wikipedia
17:47 autrijus then it wors
17:47 nothingmuch ok
17:47 autrijus so I'll just assume your arabic was bad.
17:47 nothingmuch sorry =)
17:47 jabbot pugs - 661 - Add some subs, too, but not for the funn
17:48 nothingmuch is jabbot stealing the data from RSS?
17:48 autrijus ok, all passes.
17:48 autrijus yes.
17:48 nothingmuch because if it is, perhaps the rss feed should be made so it doesn't truncate...
17:49 hlen has joined #perl6
17:49 autrijus I think the bot truncates
17:49 autrijus not the rss
17:49 nothingmuch my rss reader seems to have the same truncations
17:49 autrijus oh. hm.
17:50 autrijus it's clkao's baby.
17:50 autrijus btw, r662.
17:50 autrijus welcome to the age of unicode.
17:50 nothingmuch laa di daa!
17:50 * nothingmuch wonders what damage this may do
17:50 theorbtwo The arabic might have contained chars that aren't legal in identifers, perhaps?
17:51 nothingmuch theorbtwo: perhaps
17:51 autrijus aw. I overwrote your changes.
17:51 nothingmuch given macros we couldl rename the entire language, right?
17:51 autrijus bad me.
17:51 nothingmuch and at the very worse, we could redefine the Perl6 grammer class
17:51 autrijus nothingmuch: can you repair?
17:52 nothingmuch noo!!!
17:52 nothingmuch oh my, what will i do!
17:52 autrijus just put some of the "sub" tests back
17:52 autrijus one or two would be fine.
17:52 cognominal has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:52 autrijus sorry for that.
17:52 cognominal has joined #perl6
17:52 autrijus looking at caller position
17:52 nothingmuch no big deal =)
17:53 autrijus haskell++ # Char is unicode by default
17:54 autrijus so implementing that is piece-of-cake
17:54 autrijus I'm happy that
17:54 autrijus isAlpha
17:54 autrijus Just Works
17:54 autrijus without any complications
17:54 autrijus hurray for sanity!
17:54 Khisanth will perl6 be able to be "parsed" from right to left? :)
17:55 autrijus Khisanth: write a macro :)
17:55 nothingmuch ook
17:55 * Khisanth awaits REALLY obfuscated golfing solutions
17:55 Juerd 14:08 < nothingmuch> Juerd will probably be willing to do it too
17:55 nothingmuch Juerd: tee hee
17:55 Juerd No, I'm taking no extra physical or psychological load
17:56 Juerd I'll sometimes be able to hack some tests or provide informatio
17:56 autrijus bad nothingmuch
17:56 Juerd But in general, do not count on me at all
17:56 autrijus "t/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 12"
17:56 autrijus should use $?FILE
17:56 autrijus because it's t\magicals\ on win32. :)
17:56 autrijus I fixed that
17:56 nothingmuch autrijus: ah
17:56 nothingmuch as soon as i get opendiff to work with utf8
17:56 nothingmuch i was thinking of $?PROGNAME
17:56 nothingmuch oh, goody =)
17:56 nothingmuch but that wasn't impl
17:56 nothingmuch i'll update,
17:57 nothingmuch Juerd: sorry!
17:57 nothingmuch Juerd: i was just sort of brainstorming about who is in europe, and sort of known by everyone
17:57 jabbot pugs - 663 - * use $?FILE not hardcodes
17:57 jabbot pugs - 662 - * utf8 support
17:58 nothingmuch how do i get see to save a BOM?
17:58 autrijus why do you want to save a BOM?
17:58 autrijus BOM doesn't make sense on UTF8.
17:58 nothingmuch to see if maybe opendiff will make sense
17:58 theorbtwo Sure it does.
17:59 theorbtwo Pretty good book, BTW.
17:59 autrijus what is the byte-order of utf8?
17:59 theorbtwo BOM is somewhat misnamed.
17:59 theorbtwo "Magic number" is what it is.
17:59 autrijus so "cat" will eat it?
17:59 autrijus if it doesn't, it breaks some important file assumptions.
18:00 autrijus namely, plain text should not require magic numbers.
18:00 theorbtwo Cat won't, but it won't eat any other sort of magic number either.
18:00 autrijus <- was biten by Notepad.exe too many times
18:00 theorbtwo Including UTF-16 LE and BE BOMs.
18:00 autrijus true.
18:00 autrijus if BOM is named "magic number"
18:01 autrijus I'll maybe see the use.
18:01 * theorbtwo shrugs.
18:01 theorbtwo BOM should be considered whitespace.
18:01 autrijus # http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-utf8-bom.html
18:01 theorbtwo ...so it shouldn't matter that it's there, any way you slice it.
18:03 theorbtwo (It'll keep a #! from being seen, but that's not pugs's problem.)
18:03 autrijus \xEF\xEE\xBF#!/usr/bin/perl
18:03 autrijus eh. :)
18:04 nothingmuch heh
18:04 autrijus anyway, haskell groks BOM just fine.
18:04 autrijus so pugs did not do anything
18:04 autrijus and it's transparently working now.
18:05 autrijus which is fine; I'll keep it that way :)
18:05 nothingmuch hmm
18:06 nothingmuch tests are not passing, autrijus
18:06 nothingmuch see woobling.org
18:06 autrijus hm?
18:06 autrijus pardon?
18:06 nothingmuch the tests for unicode stuff
18:07 nothingmuch with sub calls, are not working
18:07 nothingmuch but neither are arabic, hebrew, etc
18:07 nothingmuch even though I svn upped
18:07 autrijus osx?
18:07 autrijus ghc 6.2?
18:07 nothingmuch uhuh
18:07 nothingmuch uhuh again
18:07 nothingmuch is it a notabug?
18:08 gugod wow, hebrew and arabic uncode varanme tests are so cool
18:08 gugod right-to-left perl!
18:09 nothingmuch gugod: the really nice thing is that { } are displayed like } { when flowed in rtl text
18:09 nothingmuch so theoretically, if your keywords are RTL
18:09 nothingmuch or at least you have dir marks in your unicode
18:10 nothingmuch then your editor will display the control blocks correctly
18:10 autrijus gugod: does it work or not?
18:10 autrijus for you
18:10 autrijus tr r665
18:11 gugod trying
18:12 nothingmuch oi, what a nasty revision
18:12 nothingmuch • [syeeda:/usr/local/src/pugs] nothingmuch % svn up
18:12 nothingmuch At revision 666.
18:12 autrijus ;)
18:12 nothingmuch no wonder we're having troublew
18:12 autrijus "6" means lucky in chinese.
18:12 autrijus and "66" or "666" means "things going really well".
18:13 nothingmuch well, it's meaningless for jews =)
18:13 Odin- has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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18:13 autrijus CALLER_POSITION is so borked.
18:13 autrijus fixing
18:14 gugod now those latin characters in unicode.t passes
18:14 autrijus but not others?
18:15 gugod not Chinese / Japanese / Tibten /Arabic / Hebrew / Arabic
18:15 autrijus yow.
18:15 gugod oops, two Arabic
18:15 nothingmuch new unicode.t
18:15 autrijus platform specificism detected.
18:15 gugod oh?
18:16 nothingmuch crap, typo
18:17 nothingmuch that subcall reads rtl in see
18:17 nothingmuch fun fun fun!
18:17 jabbot pugs - 668 - err, id is zehut, not zehu in heb... =P
18:17 jabbot pugs - 667 - merge todo with subs, and add hebrew sub
18:17 jabbot pugs - 666 - oops, forgot to increase plan
18:17 jabbot pugs - 665 - * fix hyperop Prim
18:17 jabbot pugs - 664 - Japanese unicode varname test
18:18 gugod hmm
18:18 autrijus platform specificism detected.
18:18 autrijus err. sorry
18:18 nothingmuch ook, i zapped japanese
18:18 nothingmuch will remerge
18:20 gugod I'm a little confusd about how to read those hebrew tests
18:20 gugod no, actually I'm /really/ confused now.
18:20 nothingmuch gugod: באר is bar
18:20 nothingmuch read it from ב
18:20 nothingmuch right to left
18:21 autrijus gugod: think classical chinese
18:21 nothingmuch since the sigil is in the context of my in the declaration, it is on the left of the hebrew
18:21 nothingmuch the rest is sort of confused in see
18:21 nothingmuch sub
18:21 nothingmuch לה
18:21 nothingmuch {};
18:22 nothingmuch 1
18:22 nothingmuch that's the logical order
18:22 nothingmuch the second example is also sort of screwed up
18:22 nothingmuch except for זהות($באר)
18:22 ihb what's "לה"?
18:22 nothingmuch "laa"
18:22 nothingmuch which reads RTL pretty well
18:22 nothingmuch since זהות is the sub
18:22 nothingmuch and $באר is the var
18:23 nothingmuch and even the sigil is on the right that time
18:23 nothingmuch sadly so is the single quote ;-)
18:24 nothingmuch the arabic reads ok
18:24 nothingmuch 'my $'
18:24 nothingmuch then start reading from the comma
18:24 ihb so, in perl 6, can i write source code from right to left?
18:24 nothingmuch rtl
18:24 nothingmuch arabic = 2; $arabic
18:24 nothingmuch ', 2
18:24 nothingmuch you are now back in the 'my $' sigil
18:24 nothingmuch continue to "evaluation"
18:24 nothingmuch ihb - it's all logical order, so it doesn't matter
18:24 nothingmuch it is written from begining to end =)
18:27 jabbot pugs - 670 - * oops
18:27 jabbot pugs - 669 - * add a missing sub
18:29 nothingmuch everyone: update unicode.t before you edit it
18:30 autrijus ok.
18:30 autrijus it all passes for me.
18:30 nothingmuch woot
18:30 nothingmuch ghc 6.4?
18:30 autrijus 6.2
18:30 autrijus win32
18:30 autrijus must be win32 specific.
18:30 autrijus bad bad.
18:30 autrijus btw, nothingmuch: indeed sub calls are now evaluated lazily
18:30 autrijus but in the wrong pad
18:31 autrijus so all hell breaks loose
18:31 autrijus nothingmuch++ # uncovering subtle bug
18:31 gugod I'm using ghc 6.2.2 on osx
18:31 nothingmuch *bow*
18:31 gugod and uniocde.t still failed on non-latin characters
18:31 nothingmuch same here
18:32 nothingmuch gugod: put yourself in http://pugs.kwiki.org/?OSXPeople if you're interested
18:32 gugod sure.
18:33 * autrijus updates README to say [email@hidden.address]
18:34 gugod I got a error message upon saving
18:34 gugod but it still saves
18:34 gugod it appers that Kwiki::Notify::IRC fails :P
18:34 Khisanth hmm
18:34 Khisanth autrijus: could the locale setting affect those?
18:34 autrijus Khisanth: I have no idea.
18:35 autrijus ask #haskell?
18:35 * autrijus still fixing callerpos
18:35 theorbtwo Linux, 6.2.2, fails 16/18 tests in t/syntax/unicode.
18:35 Khisanth meh, I'll just run the test.. O_o
18:35 autrijus I'll boot to fbsd shortly after.
18:36 Khisanth 17 & 18 went from failing to passing and back to failing again
18:36 nothingmuch Khisanth: could you try svn up -r ... to try and see what passes?
18:37 jabbot pugs - 672 - * mention pugsbugs.
18:37 jabbot pugs - 671 - merge merge merge... *sigh*
18:39 Khisanth nothingmuch: you want the revision where those two were passing?
18:39 vladtz has joined #perl6
18:39 nothingmuch autrijus prolly wants it, but yeah =)
18:39 * Khisanth scrolls up :)
18:40 Khisanth that was r688
18:40 wilx pugspugs, nice name :D
18:40 nothingmuch 668, you mean?
18:40 Khisanth oh wait a minute nvm
18:41 Khisanth it wasn't passing those, they just didn't exist!
18:41 nothingmuch heh
18:41 nothingmuch before japanese
18:41 Khisanth going to try with a different locale
18:42 nothingmuch not ok 5 - a m??se once bit my sister
18:43 nothingmuch pugs (err, ghc?) seems to be downgrading utf8 to ascii
18:43 autrijus callerpos fixed
18:43 autrijus committing
18:43 nothingmuch dance dance dance
18:43 autrijus the caller scope needs to be entered only in sub body
18:43 autrijus not in binding time
18:44 autrijus sub (?$x = $?CALLER::POS) {...}
18:44 autrijus this now will use the caller's caller
18:44 autrijus not the caller
18:44 autrijus which is counterintuitive
18:44 autrijus but not really seeing how to fix.
18:44 nothingmuch is that a bug?
18:45 autrijus I don't know.
18:45 autrijus attempting a fix.
18:45 nothingmuch i'll test for it as a bug
18:45 autrijus it's tested
18:45 autrijus in subroutine.t
18:45 nothingmuch ah
18:47 Khisanth t/syntax/unicode.................ok
18:47 nothingmuch btw, is $?POSITION the one we're in now?
18:47 nothingmuch Khisanth: what r?
18:47 sbkhh has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:47 Odin-FOO has joined #perl6
18:47 Khisanth nothingmuch: no change from when it was failing
18:47 Khisanth nothingmuch: locale issue
18:47 nothingmuch ah
18:48 * nothingmuch tried LC_ALL as C and 'he_IL.utf-8'
18:48 nothingmuch neither worked
18:48 Khisanth hmm
18:48 Khisanth I used en_US.utf8
18:48 nothingmuch what did you set it to?
18:49 nothingmuch not working for m
18:49 nothingmuch e
18:49 nothingmuch linux?
18:50 Khisanth yup
18:50 * nothingmuch starts emerging svn et al
18:51 Khisanth err this is r671
18:56 vladtz Is there a way to get an english "Term of use agreement"  from rt.openfoundry.org?
18:57 nothingmuch vladtz: autrijus says it is basically sf.net's one,
18:59 lightstep_eating is now known as lightstep
19:01 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
19:01 autrijus hi.
19:01 autrijus vladtz: http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html
19:01 autrijus nothingmuch: I'll try to ignore locale.
19:03 autrijus please try r675.
19:04 autrijus please try 675 on linuxen, too
19:04 tomyan has joined #perl6
19:04 nothingmuch my linux is emerging subversion
19:04 nothingmuch will try it soon
19:04 nothingmuch oxsx is making
19:05 autrijus I'm seeing a tibetan error
19:05 autrijus fixing
19:07 jabbot pugs - 675 - * fix callerpos bug by only evaluate the
19:07 jabbot pugs - 674 - * unicode is the Only True Locale
19:07 jabbot pugs - 673 - Chinese sub name
19:07 nothingmuch dum dee dum
19:08 Southen has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
19:08 ati has joined #perl6
19:09 * nothingmuch grudges at gentoo regenerating ssl keys every time postfix is updated
19:09 autrijus all pass now for me.
19:09 autrijus r677.
19:10 nothingmuch none passed before 677, except ascii
19:10 nothingmuch compiling 677
19:11 oozy has joined #perl6
19:11 autrijus try set LANG=en_US.UTF-8
19:11 autrijus and LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8
19:12 nothingmuch ah, that did the trick for latin
19:12 nothingmuch including møøse
19:12 nothingmuch but that still prints as m??se on the terminal
19:12 autrijus okay. I understand now
19:12 nothingmuch however, asian and semite scripts are not working
19:12 autrijus macosx build did not compile in libunicode
19:13 autrijus that's all.
19:13 autrijus not fun
19:13 nothingmuch ah
19:13 oozy hi, I try to install Pugs, but gets errors about Ambiguous occurrences from modules GHC.List.null and Data.Set.null, what can I do tot fix this?
19:13 autrijus oozy: are you using GHC 6.4 and Pugs 6.0.10?
19:13 oozy exactly
19:14 oozy I do
19:14 autrijus do you have subversion?
19:14 ati has left "ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.703 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"
19:14 oozy are you telling to get latest Pugs from svc?
19:14 autrijus if you already have subversion, yes.
19:15 oozy ok, thanks I try
19:15 autrijus if you don't, try this tarball:
19:15 autrijus http://autrijus.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.11.tar.gz
19:15 autrijus oh good.
19:15 * nothingmuch wonders what $MACHTYPE/$OSTYPE eq in emacs
19:15 oozy :)
19:15 nothingmuch oozy: svn tree is pretty stable
19:15 autrijus it should be, because I need to roll a release now.
19:15 autrijus nothingmuch: so what we do about unicode.t?
19:15 nothingmuch i find it always tends to be
19:16 autrijus the problem is clear
19:16 nothingmuch autrijus: say unicode is supported if GHC supports it
19:16 autrijus just not sure what to do.
19:16 nothingmuch and complain to ghc folks
19:16 autrijus they can't help either
19:16 autrijus the underlying OS need to have some way of libunicode
19:16 autrijus it's up for the porter
19:16 autrijus to compile with the lib
19:16 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:16 nothingmuch by the GHC people I meant those which make the GHC dmg
19:16 nothingmuch can't it be compiled properly on OSX?
19:17 autrijus not sure, I hope it can
19:17 nothingmuch gentoo: all fail without LC_ALL
19:17 nothingmuch all pass with
19:17 nothingmuch The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.2
19:17 nothingmuch pugs at head rev
19:20 autrijus okay.
19:20 lightstep i get the moose as iso8859-1
19:21 autrijus try r678
19:21 lightstep (ghc-6.2.2 on debian linux)
19:21 nothingmuch on linux? or osx?
19:21 autrijus either. it should now always pass.
19:22 autrijus I'm really working on changelog now.
19:22 * autrijus declares it's freeze time
19:22 tiw` has joined #perl6
19:22 lightstep now it says "no unicode support"
19:22 lightstep 677 was better
19:23 autrijus I see.
19:23 autrijus r680?
19:23 nothingmuch =)
19:23 autrijus 680 should be happy.
19:24 lightstep just a moment
19:24 lightstep still iso8859-1
19:24 tiw has quit IRC ("I am going away")
19:25 autrijus what do you mean "still iso8859-1"?
19:25 autrijus    skip("GHC was not compiled with non-latin1 Unicode support, bummer");
19:25 autrijus did this line run?
19:25 lightstep no
19:25 autrijus nopaste the full run log.
19:25 autrijus thanks :)
19:25 DapperDan has joined #perl6
19:26 lightstep which run log? is succeeded. but the slashed o was latin1, not unicode
19:26 lightstep s/is/it
19:26 autrijus oh oh ok
19:26 tiw` has left "ERC Version 5.0.2 $Revision: 1.726.2.10 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"
19:26 autrijus that's fine.
19:26 autrijus ghc managed output translations
19:26 autrijus that's Correct Behaviour.
19:26 lightstep ok
19:26 autrijus nothingmuch: what about osx vs r680?
19:27 jabbot pugs - 680 - * latin1 only
19:27 jabbot pugs - 679 - * oops
19:27 jabbot pugs - 678 - * don't bomb out on unicode.t
19:27 jabbot pugs - 677 - * all pass now
19:27 jabbot pugs - 676 - * unTODO
19:28 tiw has joined #perl6
19:28 nothingmuch ok 1 - ascii declaration
19:28 nothingmuch not ok 2 - french declaration
19:28 nothingmuch #     Failed test (t/syntax/unicode.t at line 10, column 5)
19:28 nothingmuch ok 3 -  # skip GHC was not compiled with non-latin1 Unicode support, bummer
19:28 autrijus so even french failed.
19:29 autrijus what if you run it with LANG=C ?
19:29 autrijus or LANG=en_US.UTF-8 ?
19:29 nothingmuch C faukes
19:29 nothingmuch fails
19:29 nothingmuch en_US.UTF-8 will pass
19:30 nothingmuch yup
19:30 autrijus hm.
19:30 autrijus do you think we should putEnv?
19:31 autrijus at start of pugs
19:31 nothingmuch i have no clue
19:31 autrijus alternatively, only do that on harness
19:31 nothingmuch i think not
19:31 autrijus thinking.
19:31 autrijus let me try putenv
19:31 theorbtwo User apps might want to know what the user's locale was set to.
19:31 nothingmuch that makes programs written in perl6 not know what LANG was originally
19:31 autrijus that is true too
19:32 autrijus nothingmuch: hm. so all other tests passed?
19:32 autrijus including french quotes and yen?
19:32 autrijus even under LANG=C?
19:32 nothingmuch autrijus: yes, that stuff works perfectly
19:33 autrijus oooook
19:33 iwt has joined #perl6
19:33 nothingmuch it doesn't really matter
19:33 nothingmuch if it's not utf8 to parsec  or whomever
19:33 nothingmuch it's not utf8 in both cases
19:33 nothingmuch so it still gets parsed =)
19:34 autrijus does "en.UTF-8" work?
19:34 nothingmuch on osx?
19:35 theorbtwo Hm, not working for me even with LANG=en_US.UTF-8
19:36 wilx Hmm....
19:36 nothingmuch autrijus: en.UTF-8 causes french to fail again
19:36 * wilx doesn't like the way *nix handles locale stuff.
19:36 autrijus sigh.
19:36 nothingmuch handle? what handle?
19:37 autrijus ok, I abandon all hope.
19:37 lightstep theorbtwo, which ghc do you have?
19:37 autrijus r683. ;)
19:37 jabbot pugs - 684 - * doc is gone.
19:37 jabbot pugs - 683 - * sigh.
19:37 jabbot pugs - 682 - * perlkwid.kwid belongs somewhere under
19:37 jabbot pugs - 681 - * move to docs for now before we figure
19:39 Khisanth gugod: can you make jabbot print those in the other order?
19:41 DapperDan has quit IRC ()
19:43 autrijus 1477 tests now.
19:43 autrijus one week ago it was 1050
19:43 nothingmuch =)
19:43 lightstep but they fail
19:44 nothingmuch lightstep: a failing tests tests something too =)
19:44 obra 50 more tests and pugs will have more tests than RT
19:44 lightstep rt?
19:44 obra make pugs able to run RT and I'll double your test suite ;)
19:44 obra http://bestpractical.com/rt/
19:44 autrijus hah :)
19:45 autrijus nothingmuch: please delete my password.
19:45 autrijus err, sorry, mischan
19:46 stevan has joined #perl6
19:47 nothingmuch hola stevan
19:47 stevan hey there nothingmuch
19:47 stevan just the person I was looking for
19:47 nothingmuch =)
19:47 jabbot pugs - 685 - * regen manifest
19:49 theorbtwo Sorry -- GHC 6.2.2, from debian unstable.
19:49 autrijus hi stevan!
19:49 stevan hey autrijus
19:49 stevan how goes Pugs
19:49 * autrijus is doing changelog :-/
19:49 stevan I have been busy with work and "real live" lately sorry
19:50 autrijus that's just fine.
19:50 autrijus 6.0.11 will be out in a few mins.
19:50 stevan nice
19:50 theorbtwo s/live/life/
19:50 lightstep theorbtwo, i have the same problem. i'm installing 6.4 now to see the difference
19:55 lightstep modules/Sample-Module is missing (this complaint is from Makefile.PL)
19:56 lightstep or rather, some of its files (meta, blib, etc.)
19:57 lightstep and there are warnings about orphan instances
19:57 lightstep in Internals and in AST
19:57 jabbot pugs - 686 - * don't spread my email around.
19:58 obra autrijus: is svn.perl.org reasonably syncced?
19:59 autrijus obra: I think so.
19:59 obra  expected to pass tsts?
19:59 autrijus yeah. what fails?
20:00 obra nothing yet
20:00 obra I'm running the suite nopw
20:00 * obra got a bad idea
20:00 obra or rather, jhi gave me a bad idea
20:01 autrijus yes?
20:01 rgs nasty jhui
20:01 rgs jhi
20:01 vladtz has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:01 obra Digest::SHA::PurePerl
20:01 obra a necessary precondition of cp6an, in his opinion is working things like FTP and SHA1
20:02 obra Digest::SHA::PurePerl appears to do math but otherwise be pretty simple
20:02 autrijus sure, but we can also hook haskell Codec.
20:02 obra sure.
20:02 autrijus is ::SHA::PurePerl already on cpan?
20:02 obra yes
20:02 obra In terms of "prove perl6" "hack in a haskell extension" isn't a win
20:03 obra in terms of "Get sha1 working" it's reasonable
20:03 obra but In that case, exec and perl5 would be fine too ;)
20:03 obra Is that at all sensical?
20:04 autrijus of course...
20:04 autrijus ext/Digest-SHA/ awaits you.
20:04 autrijus want committer bit?
20:04 obra no committer bit until I prove that I have code
20:04 autrijus sure.
20:04 obra "incentive to write code"
20:05 autrijus brb.
20:05 obra "incentive to not do customer work I _must_ do before monday"
20:06 nothingmuch obra: a comitter bit will make you feel guilty about not having written code already ;-)
20:07 obra nothingmuch:   I have rather a lot of committer bits ;)
20:07 nothingmuch heh
20:07 jabbot pugs - 687 - * fix manifest
20:08 lightstep has quit IRC ("changing clients")
20:09 lightstep has joined #perl6
20:10 lightstep has quit IRC (Client Quit)
20:13 lightstep has joined #perl6
20:14 obra so. um. perl6 tutorials
20:15 autrijus Perl 6 Now?
20:16 wilx Yay for jabbot!
20:17 autrijus http://kw.pm.org/talks/2004-10-24-Perl6talk.ppt ?
20:17 wilx It should print the changes oldest first.
20:17 autrijus wilx: yeah, that's a FAReq :-/
20:17 autrijus jabbot is gugod's
20:17 obra is perl6now any good?
20:18 theorbtwo p6now isn't really about perl 6, it's about how to implement p6-like ideas under p5.
20:18 obra oh. "enh"
20:21 theorbtwo Came up near the beginning of the project; wanted to use the code examples as tests, but they're p5 code... IIRC.
20:21 tiw has left "ERC Version 5.0.2 $Revision: 1.726.2.10 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"
20:22 wolverian has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:22 autrijus there's some p6 code there.
20:23 autrijus but it's not needed anymore
20:23 autrijus the t/* gang completely overwhelmed its scope.
20:25 DapperDan has joined #perl6
20:25 * nothingmuch gloats a bit
20:25 nothingmuch ;-)
20:25 autrijus nothingmuch++
20:26 autrijus testers++
20:27 autrijus ok. who has GHC 6.4 on linux?
20:27 lightstep me
20:27 autrijus all tests passed for you?
20:27 autrijus (ignore the warnings)
20:27 lightstep how do i check it>
20:27 lightstep ?
20:27 jabbot lightstep: ¬O³o¼Ëª±¶Ü? o_oa
20:27 autrijus "make test"
20:27 jabbot pugs - 689 - * set properties
20:27 jabbot pugs - 688 - * changelog for 6.0.11
20:27 obra I have 6.22. Want me tto upgrade?
20:28 autrijus I don't think 6.4-macosx is out
20:28 lightstep i'm pulling right now
20:28 nothingmuch obra: are you osx too?
20:28 obra I have linux and osx
20:28 obra right here, linux
20:29 obra why is algorthm::dependency checked into pugs svn?
20:29 autrijus obra: see backlog :)
20:29 obra it appears to be p5.
20:29 Forth_ has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
20:29 obra how far back?
20:29 lightstep on t/examples: 10/10 skipped, various reaons
20:29 autrijus it's my experiment in doing p6ification in trunk.
20:29 obra ahhhhh
20:29 autrijus modules/ means "does not really work and is not installed" anyway.
20:29 autrijus and A::Dep is not even in MANIFEST.
20:29 autrijus so I feel safe.
20:30 * obra nods
20:30 obra I went looking for example code for modules :/
20:30 autrijus yeah. :/
20:30 autrijus 'mafraid there's only t/* for you.
20:30 obra Ok.
20:31 obra what's the right set of tests to learn about setting up package variables, etc
20:31 nothingmuch obra: if you use OSX for dev, perhaps write yourself down in http://pugs.kwiki.org/?OSXPeople
20:31 nothingmuch it's basically a subetha users directory, for pairing
20:31 autrijus http://autrijus.org/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.11.tar.gz
20:31 autrijus calling for a final round of tests.
20:31 lightstep all tests succeeded or skipped
20:31 nothingmuch 404
20:32 autrijus http://autrijus.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.11.tar.gz
20:32 autrijus sorry.
20:32 nothingmuch autrijus+=0; # forgiven ;-)
20:33 nothingmuch ime stamp 2005-03-13 22:33:09 is 25 s in the future
20:33 nothingmuch heh
20:33 autrijus adjusted back.
20:33 stevan orba if you want module example code,.. you could check Test.pm
20:33 theorbtwo Ah, good, I'm not the only one that's off from Autrijus Standard Time.
20:33 nothingmuch server 128.139.6.20, stratum 1, offset -7.521101, delay 0.04782
20:33 nothingmuch i'm not that good either
20:34 theorbtwo Remind me how to check, nm?
20:34 nothingmuch oh, sorry, different box
20:34 obra should this statement work:  my $foo = 5;
20:34 autrijus ...yes.
20:34 nothingmuch ntpdate -qd your_server
20:34 autrijus I think.
20:34 autrijus will be surprised if it does not
20:34 nothingmuch obra: t/op/assign.t ;-)
20:35 obra I'm typing this:
20:35 obra pugs
20:35 theorbtwo -0.030720 sec
20:35 theorbtwo I'm pretty good.
20:35 obra my $foo = 5;
20:35 nothingmuch oh, in interactive...
20:35 obra >pugs says: undef
20:35 lightstep it only evaluates expressions
20:35 obra I say:
20:35 theorbtwo All succeeded, 11 skipped.
20:36 obra say $foo
20:36 obra *** Error: Undefined variable $foo at Var "$foo"
20:36 autrijus context is lost between lines.
20:36 autrijus that was debated.
20:36 nothingmuch pugs> my $foo = 5; $foo
20:36 nothingmuch 5
20:36 autrijus it will be made togglable.
20:36 obra *blink* why would you want to lose context between lines?
20:36 autrijus between lines in interactive shell, that is.
20:37 theorbtwo I rather wondered that as well...
20:37 nothingmuch will you implement an :r, to throw away context when sticky, autrijus?
20:37 autrijus uh, because no-one complained loudly :)
20:37 autrijus nothingmuch: sure, that sounds good
20:37 * theorbtwo should have been louder.
20:37 autrijus any lambdafolks up for it? :)
20:37 nothingmuch obra, theorbtwo: to sure errors don't leak between your checks
20:37 autrijus otherwise I'll look at it tomorrow.
20:37 * nothingmuch is too dead to even think he can try
20:37 * autrijus too, today
20:38 obra to make sure errors don't leak?
20:38 nothingmuch .11 passes all
20:38 nothingmuch obra: err, if you did something wrong
20:38 obra Is it not supposed to be an interactive environment for pugs in the end?
20:38 lightstep if i look at it in a few hours, who should i report to?
20:38 nothingmuch and you go at it again
20:38 nothingmuch bad state might leak
20:38 nothingmuch causing stuff which is correct to not be correct, due to screwey environment
20:39 theorbtwo :reset , then.
20:39 nothingmuch autrijus: also nice would be the ability to have non balanced structures cause a secondary prompt
20:40 autrijus true.
20:40 nothingmuch so you can type:
20:40 nothingmuch pugs> {\n
20:40 nothingmuch type a multiline expr
20:40 nothingmuch and then }\n
20:40 nothingmuch and it evals
20:41 autrijus yup.
20:41 * nothingmuch always saw pugs in interactive mode as sort of <code>eval while <></code>
20:42 nothingmuch err, before .11
20:42 stevan this is still testing,.....
20:42 stevan I think we have too many tests :P
20:42 nothingmuch t/parser....Perl v6.0.0 required--this is only v5.8.5, stopped at t/parser.t line 1.
20:42 nothingmuch BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at t/parser.t line 1.
20:42 nothingmuch t/parser....dubious                                                          
20:42 nothingmuch        Test returned status 9 (wstat 2304, 0x900)
20:42 nothingmuch FAILED--1 test script could be run, alas--no output ever seen
20:42 nothingmuch ooh, LANG=he_IL.UTF-8 bothers make
20:43 nothingmuch make[1]: *** [test_dynamic] 2 הלקת
20:43 stevan it probably need #!/usr/bin/pugs at the top
20:43 nothingmuch it types 'error', but in reverse =D
20:43 lightstep make is funny in hebrew
20:43 autrijus 04:42  * CPAN upload: Perl6-Pugs-6.0.11 by AUTRIJUS
20:43 autrijus if there's bugs, it's now too late :)
20:43 nothingmuch hah
20:44 stevan All tests successful, 11 subtests skipped.
20:44 stevan Files=87, Tests=1461, 405 wallclock secs (265.73 cusr +  9.47 csys = 275.20 CPU)
20:44 lightstep search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs still has only .10
20:44 nothingmuch lightstep: it usually takes a while
20:44 nothingmuch 2 hours or so
20:44 stevan lightstep: it will take a few hours to get there
20:44 nothingmuch you can leech of nic.funet.fi if you're really impatient
20:45 nothingmuch but search.cpan is the slowest of all
20:45 lightstep i have the svn version
20:46 * nothingmuch reads a bit of YAHT before sleep
20:46 stevan what is pugscc?
20:47 autrijus stevan: it turns p6 code into standalone exe.
20:47 autrijus same as perlcc.
20:47 obra aw. the test suite has no tests
20:47 nothingmuch obra: you mean Test.pm?
20:47 nothingmuch no Test::Ouput yet
20:48 nothingmuch anyway, if it was bad, we'd know ;-)
20:48 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("It's never to late to have a happy childhood! [Time wasted online: 1hr 47mins 15secs]")
20:48 theorbtwo Oh: It doesn't have +x perms.
20:48 autrijus nothingmuch: you got a "special thanks" :)
20:48 autrijus # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.compiler/309
20:48 rgs autrijus: is there an url for the latest pugs ?
20:48 lightstep why are single-statement monadic blocks prefixed with `do'? is this some convention?
20:49 rgs the tarball, i mean
20:49 autrijus    http://autrijus.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.0.11.tar.gz
20:49 nothingmuch ooh
20:49 rgs thanks
20:49 autrijus lightstep: yes, some convention.
20:49 lightstep it looks strange in, eg, doRun
20:49 nothingmuch careful, my ego might boil ;-)
20:49 autrijus oh, that.
20:49 autrijus that's just baskell legacy
20:50 autrijus it matters little to me anyway.
20:50 autrijus ok, sleep time.
20:50 sorje has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:50 autrijus have fun, folks!
20:50 autrijus thanks for making 6.0.11 possible! :)
20:50 nothingmuch good night autrijus
20:50 nothingmuch great job!
20:50 theorbtwo G'night, autrijus, and congrats.
20:50 autrijus =) &
20:57 jabbot pugs - 690 - * This be Pugs, version 6.0.11.
21:03 rgs kwid is no longer installed in latest pugs ?
21:03 nothingmuch ext/Kwid
21:03 DapperDan has quit IRC ()
21:03 rgs no, after "make install"
21:03 nothingmuch oh, installed
21:03 * nothingmuch never installed pugs =P
21:04 * rgs makes rpms of pugs
21:04 nothingmuch yeah, i misread
21:04 rgs in fact, I use pugs straight from svn, but I have friends who play with it via the rpm
21:04 rgs and it amuses me
21:05 rgs which justifies the worthwhility of it :-)
21:06 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:08 * theorbtwo ponders a CGI that will deliver a up-to-date .deb.
21:08 rgs theorbtwo: investigate CPANPLUS.
21:09 theorbtwo But that'd only give the latest release.
21:09 theorbtwo And the release is always out of date.
21:09 rgs yes, the pace is amazing
21:10 rgs but you can "make dist" and have cpanplus produce a .deb IIRC
21:10 obra ok. I've got a test patch. what's the right place to get it reviewed?
21:11 rgs p6c I think
21:11 nothingmuch obra either pastebot
21:11 nothingmuch or subetha pariring
21:11 nothingmuch or mailing lists
21:11 nothingmuch or just commit and someone will cleanup
21:11 theorbtwo I'd say just put it someplace http-accessable, and point us at it, or commit.
21:12 obra given that it's my first perl6 code and it's a patch to the test harness, I'm not about to commit it without review ;)
21:12 obra but as soon as the suite runs, I'll put it up
21:12 theorbtwo Does it work for you?
21:12 obra it's appearing to. but I'm somewhat build-break averse
21:12 rgs obra: so what are your first impressions about writing p6 code ?
21:13 obra "more copmplexity, not any more utility"
21:13 obra complexity
21:13 nothingmuch and it's use of zip
21:13 nothingmuch obra: for nice p6 only utility see t/op/given.t
21:13 nothingmuch err, ¥
21:13 * obra nods
21:14 nothingmuch and for () -> ($try, $expected)
21:14 obra sure. I expect this will change once I've used it for more than anhour
21:14 * rgs hugs perl 6
21:14 nothingmuch one thing to be weary of:
21:14 * rgs curses his perl 5 hat
21:14 nothingmuch is($thing, <junction>, "foo");
21:14 obra http://fsck.com/~jesse/test.pm6
21:15 nothingmuch like, is($thing, ("ok value" | "other ok value"), "foo");
21:15 nothingmuch this will invoke is twice
21:15 nothingmuch once for ok value
21:15 nothingmuch and another for other
21:15 nothingmuch and one will fail
21:15 nothingmuch so you do ok($thing eq junction, "foo")
21:15 * integral still disagrees with this scheme for junctions
21:16 nothingmuch report_failure could be made cooler:
21:16 nothingmuch $?CALLER::CALLER::POSITIOn
21:16 nothingmuch =),
21:16 obra that will just work?
21:16 nothingmuch uhuh
21:16 nothingmuch err, supposed to
21:16 nothingmuch will test
21:17 obra Ok. patched
21:18 obra and actually, I think I'll switch to integrating with proclaim
21:19 theorbtwo "proclaim"?
21:19 nothingmuch theorbtwo: Test.pm internals
21:19 obra see the main code
21:20 * autrijus wakes up from sleep
21:21 nothingmuch autrijus: CALLER::CALLER?
21:21 autrijus just one thing: obra now has the admin bit. if I'm unavailable and someone needs committer bit, ping him :)
21:21 nothingmuch yay!
21:21 autrijus CALLER::CALLER works, no?
21:21 nothingmuch i don't know how to syntax it
21:21 autrijus $?CALLER::CALLER::POSITION
21:22 nothingmuch undef var
21:22 nothingmuch sub inner { return join("\n", $?CALLER::CALLER::POSITION, $?CALLER::POSITION) }
21:22 nothingmuch sub outer { inner() }
21:22 autrijus I see. it's TODO then.
21:22 nothingmuch Undefined variable $?CALLER::CALLER::POSITION
21:22 autrijus the relevant bit is line 225 Eval.hs
21:22 nothingmuch does eval have a caller?
21:22 autrijus you can write a test
21:22 nothingmuch i am writing one =)
21:23 autrijus or attempt a fix by somehow using findVar instead of findVar' in eval line 225.
21:23 * autrijus really sleeps &
21:23 nothingmuch i'll try to grok
21:24 * mugwump sends autrijus SIGSTOP
21:25 * mugwump renice's autrijus to 1.5Hz
21:25 nothingmuch mugwump: his irc client is prolly beeping... let him be!
21:25 nothingmuch ;-)
21:26 mugwump true
21:27 lightstep has quit IRC ("sleep")
21:30 * nothingmuch tries to figure out where caller is defined
21:32 nothingmuch hmmm
21:32 nothingmuch i think i can actually do this
21:32 nothingmuch anybody want to SEE with me?
21:32 lumi You mean someone who actually has a clue?
21:32 theorbtwo I will, but I don't know how useful I'll be.
21:33 nothingmuch err, cluefullness adds up, lumi =)
21:33 lumi I'd like to read over your shoulder anyway
21:33 theorbtwo If a third wants to come in, I've been wanting to get some protocol caps of three-party SEE.
21:34 nothingmuch ok, we'll discuss here
21:34 nothingmuch see freeforall is open at see://woobling.org
21:34 saorge has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:35 saorge has joined #perl6
21:36 nothingmuch lumi: try again
21:36 nothingmuch wifi problems
21:36 lumi I'm learning to loath these
21:37 nothingmuch the guy who built our house before we bought it appearantly had a very good friend who was a cement dealer or something
21:37 nothingmuch that's why i have wifi problems
21:37 jabbot pugs - 691 - test CALLER::CALLER
21:37 lumi I think he did my house as well
21:38 nothingmuch i believe there is about 0.5 meters of concrete, when it sums up, between me and the station
21:38 theorbtwo Hmmpf, I'm having network problems; OSX isn't doing DNS, it's trying to do portmapping.
21:38 nothingmuch oi oi oi
21:39 nothingmuch theorbtwo: we'll wait a bit then
21:39 obra will $?CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::POSITION work in the end?
21:39 nothingmuch just tell us if you give up
21:40 nothingmuch obra - the way it seems like the impl might be, yes
21:40 nothingmuch it's just going to be recursive
21:40 obra okm
21:40 lumi Bh
21:40 obra but I should expect that right now, it does not?
21:40 lumi A pox on wifi in all its forms
21:40 nothingmuch obra: not yet, only single level
21:40 obra ok
21:41 theorbtwo Huh?  My /var/run is missing!
21:41 nothingmuch oi oi oi
21:44 * nothingmuch begs OSXPeople to join in
21:45 nothingmuch everyone that is interested seems to be having some kind of issue with it ;-)
21:46 lumi I've changed my network configuration a little
21:46 nothingmuch me too
21:47 lumi (And stayed on irc, a miracle!)
21:47 nothingmuch nat punch now goes to ethernet ip
21:47 * nothingmuch needs to get both interfaces to bind to the same port some how... does arp even allow it?
21:48 nothingmuch theorbtwo: how are you coming along?
21:49 theorbtwo Not sure.
21:51 nothingmuch shall we start?
21:51 nothingmuch (this is a vote, larsen, lumi ;-)
21:51 lumi Sure
21:51 larsen ok
21:51 nothingmuch ok
21:52 theorbtwo Go for it; I'll join later if I get this fixed.
21:52 nothingmuch first i think we'll start guessing on findVar
21:52 lumi Gr
21:52 nothingmuch as i see it it's taking a varname
21:53 iblechbot has quit IRC (Success)
21:53 nothingmuch the first line is taking the package prefix, and the rest
21:53 nothingmuch i.e. foo::bar::gorch is -> foo, bar::gorch
21:53 nothingmuch lumi->ping
21:53 lumi Ow
21:53 lumi I keep dying
21:53 nothingmuch go somewhere where you have a physical cable =)
21:53 lumi I *do* have physical cable
21:54 nothingmuch anywho,then it's looking at the package variable
21:54 nothingmuch and if it's CALLER, without the sigil, err sort of
21:54 nothingmuch then it calls findVar' inside an env for that context, which does the dirty work
21:55 nothingmuch i think what our task is going to be is to make findVar' the general case
21:55 nothingmuch or otherwise cause findVar to have another variant
21:55 nothingmuch which takes env args
21:55 nothingmuch and recurses them
21:55 nothingmuch each time dealing with another CALLER prefix
21:55 lumi That is, factor the env thing into findVar'?
21:55 nothingmuch and eventually using findVar' to extract the actual whatever it extracts
21:56 nothingmuch i'm not exactly sure
21:56 lumi Hh
21:57 nothingmuch blockedit is fun
21:57 nothingmuch =)
21:57 larsen :)
21:59 theorbtwo I think you're better off making findVar call findVar instead of findVar' when it sees CALLER.
21:59 theorbtwo Oh, wait, no.
21:59 nothingmuch theorbtwo: the problem is how to get findVar to look in another env
22:00 * nothingmuch has commented Eval.hs a bit
22:00 nothingmuch you should see, but you have no see.
22:00 theorbtwo Factoring the CALLER bit into findVar'...
22:00 theorbtwo Right.
22:00 nothingmuch heh, pun not intendant
22:00 nothingmuch heh, pun not intended
22:00 theorbtwo I'll get back to that now.
22:00 theorbtwo That's too bad, as it was good.
22:00 nothingmuch theorbtwo: save an image when you get it fixed ;-)
22:01 nothingmuch good catch, lumi
22:02 wolverian has joined #perl6
22:03 lumi I don't understand the call to caller
22:03 nothingmuch anybody got a clue how that call to caller makes any sense as a Num?
22:03 lumi Ehm it's not, is it
22:03 nothingmuch caller n = do
22:03 lumi rv is Just x (x is called caller)
22:04 nothingmuch when (depth <= n)
22:04 nothingmuch it's $CALLER::FOO -> $FOO
22:04 nothingmuch i get this part: (sig ++ (drop 2 name'))
22:04 lumi findvar' x (sig..etc)
22:05 lumi What is it? I don't
22:05 nothingmuch since sig and name were sliced properly
22:05 nothingmuch i assume drop 2 takes the '::' off of name
22:05 lumi Oh
22:05 nothingmuch oh
22:05 nothingmuch the call to caller is not a call to caller
22:05 nothingmuch we're used to reading it wrong ;-)
22:05 lumi No, confusing
22:05 lumi Yup
22:06 nothingmuch if it were (caller (sig ++))
22:06 nothingmuch so what is the caller?
22:06 nothingmuch an env?
22:06 nothingmuch that is really a function, that is errr, lazifyingly made in to an env?
22:06 lumi It got it from "asks envCaller"
22:06 nothingmuch not rv
22:06 nothingmuch findVar' caller
22:06 nothingmuch caller is something
22:07 lumi It's Just caller
22:07 nothingmuch oh shit
22:07 nothingmuch sorry
22:07 lumi The case binds it
22:07 nothingmuch ok
22:07 obra does pugs use the perl5 test harness?
22:08 nothingmuch obra: uhuh
22:08 nothingmuch what do | and , really do in a function?
22:08 nothingmuch case?
22:09 lumi Yes, "if so and so fits, the function = this"
22:09 lumi Otherwise that
22:09 lumi I think
22:09 nothingmuch and comma is and?
22:09 nothingmuch how would we extract the caller of a caller?
22:10 nothingmuch rv <- asks envCaller
22:10 lumi Yes
22:10 lumi I don't know that "asks" magic
22:10 nothingmuch i think we'll deal with it later
22:10 lumi Possibly another <- asks envCaller will get you the next one
22:11 nothingmuch another?
22:11 nothingmuch how does it keep state?
22:11 lumi It's a monad
22:11 nothingmuch right
22:11 nothingmuch but we don't return states to it at the end of findVar
22:12 lumi I see returns in findVar'
22:12 lumi I don't yet grok it :/
22:12 nothingmuch return is, as i gather, a way to type do
22:12 nothingmuch since do is a number of actions/functions
22:13 nothingmuch you declare some to be final
22:13 nothingmuch i think
22:13 nothingmuch s/think/guess/
22:13 nothingmuch (infer ;-)
22:13 lumi Final?
22:13 nothingmuch the thing whose type is the type of the do segment
22:14 nothingmuch hence the type of findVar
22:15 nothingmuch okay, lumi, i think i'm sort of done
22:15 nothingmuch except for the parrts I really don't know
22:15 nothingmuch larsen: any feedback?
22:16 lumi What did you do?
22:17 nothingmuch perlbot: nopaste?
22:17 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
22:17 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "findVar for recursive CALLER" (23 lines, 946B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8151
22:17 larsen nothingmuch: sorry, I was writing some code for another project
22:17 nothingmuch rv <- -- getNextEnv env
22:17 nothingmuch that part we don't know yet
22:17 larsen actually, I'm too ignorant in Haskell to really contribute
22:17 nothingmuch hence it's commented out
22:18 nothingmuch well, nevermind then
22:18 lumi I know absolutely nothing, and I think I helped some
22:18 nothingmuch you're picture in the participants window is fun enough ;-)
22:18 nothingmuch lumi: liar, you do too know
22:18 larsen nothingmuch: cheers for that
22:18 lumi I do not!
22:18 nothingmuch beh
22:18 lumi I only read YAHT a bit
22:18 obra what's the authenticated svn url for pugs?
22:19 * nothingmuch svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
22:19 nothingmuch and then ci
22:19 nothingmuch and it just worked
22:19 nothingmuch i guess it uses DAV
22:19 obra ah. ok
22:19 * obra has a refactored test harness to check in
22:19 nothingmuch obra: does it use CALLER::CALLER?
22:20 nothingmuch wtf is envCaller?
22:20 lumi I think the do is magic
22:21 nothingmuch do is pretty magic, yes
22:21 lumi I think it passed in a monad, and asks is defined on that monad
22:21 lumi I mean, it's "THE" magic here
22:21 nothingmuch that's two levels farther than I understand do
22:21 nothingmuch so lets just try asks envCaller, you say?
22:21 obra nothingmuch: it does not. it has a todo for that
22:21 nothingmuch okay,
22:21 lumi I think do topicalizes on a monad
22:22 nothingmuch lumi: elaborate?
22:22 lumi You pick somehow a monad, and then you do stuff. And you call other folk who do stuff
22:22 lumi Everyone who is do-ing is do-ing with the "topic" monad
22:23 lumi <- binds from the monad
22:23 lumi I should really start quoting temrs
22:23 lumi Terms as well
22:24 lumi I'm not sure about the part that picks the monad, but the rest I'm.. fairly sure of
22:24 lumi Well, vaguely sure
22:24 nothingmuch that's an oxymoron
22:24 theorbtwo Ugh.
22:24 lumi Aren't there any Followers of the Lambda about?
22:25 theorbtwo I think I need to reinstall my OSX.
22:25 theorbtwo Join #haskell and ask there?
22:27 lumi Except what's the question exactly
22:27 lumi "Explain monads, please" is a bit vague
22:27 theorbtwo I certianly don't know.
22:28 theorbtwo Going to bed, will probably be back in approx .5hr.
22:28 nothingmuch night, theorbtwo
22:28 theorbtwo Perhaps "do you know where 'asks'" comes from in this code.
22:28 theorbtwo Hm, misplaced end quote.
22:28 lumi Right, do pastebots
22:28 lumi That's not what I meant to type
22:30 nothingmuch lumi->sanify
22:30 nothingmuch i get indent errors now, trying to figure out why
22:30 b6s has quit IRC ("engage.")
22:34 lumi Why'd you take findVar' out of findVar?
22:35 nothingmuch trying stuff out
22:35 nothingmuch to see if i coudl make the error more specific
22:36 nothingmuch beh
22:36 nothingmuch rewriting
22:36 nothingmuch svn revert first, copying new broken version
22:38 lumi It doesn't compile now?
22:38 nothingmuch no
22:39 nothingmuch ok, this ocmpiles now
22:39 lumi What fixed it?
22:39 nothingmuch i have no clue
22:39 nothingmuch i just zapped the change
22:39 nothingmuch and rewrote it
22:39 nothingmuch cleanly
22:40 nothingmuch ok
22:40 nothingmuch the recursion works
22:40 nothingmuch but asks envCaller is not getNextEnv
22:40 lumi And for our next trick, let's rewrite using Maybe monad :P
22:40 lumi Oh.. What does it do then?
22:40 nothingmuch not ok 3 - caller::caller notation works # TODO
22:40 nothingmuch #     Failed (TODO) test (t/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 24, column 1)
22:40 nothingmuch #          got: 't/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 22, column 13
22:41 nothingmuch # t/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 22, column 13'
22:41 nothingmuch #     expected: 't/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 24, column 1
22:41 nothingmuch # t/magicals/caller_pos.t at line 22, column 13'
22:41 nothingmuch appearantly asks envCaller always returns the same thing
22:41 nothingmuch $?CALLER::POSITION -> $?POSITION in asks envCaller
22:41 nothingmuch recursively, till you run out of CALLER
22:41 nothingmuch so now lets figure out what asks and envCaller are
22:41 lightstep has joined #perl6
22:42 bd_ has joined #perl6
22:43 lightstep i think -fno-warn-orphans should be added to line 139 in Makefile.PL
22:43 obra once you fix CALLER::CALLER, I'll redo the test suite again
22:43 nothingmuch lumi - join #haskell
22:45 metaperl are there tests written for smartmatching?
22:45 * metaperl does svn update
22:46 metaperl yup: t/op/smartmatch.t
22:47 nothingmuch ok, back here, to not annoy #haskell
22:47 nothingmuch it appears like caller n allows you to err, give it an int
22:47 jabbot pugs - 693 -  r8413@hualien:  jesse | 2005-03-13 17:3
22:47 jabbot pugs - 692 -  r8412@hualien:  jesse | 2005-03-13 17:3
22:47 nothingmuch and get the same thing as rv <- env
22:47 nothingmuch or whatever
22:48 nothingmuch obra++
22:48 lightstep ok
22:48 nothingmuch =)
22:49 nothingmuch lightstep: are envs a sort of linked list that is really a stack?
22:49 lightstep to my unsuspecting eye, it seems that the first branch of findVar is never taken
22:49 nothingmuch it is
22:49 nothingmuch at least, i am nearly sure
22:50 lightstep oh, i misinterpreted the (:) in breakOnGlue
22:50 lightstep they are stacked, through envCaller
22:50 nothingmuch look what we've come up with:
22:50 lightstep envCaller :: Env -> Maybe Env
22:50 nothingmuch perlbot: nopaste
22:50 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
22:51 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "new findVar" (24 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8152
22:51 nothingmuch lightstep: where do you read that?
22:51 lightstep is it supposed to be equivalent?
22:51 nothingmuch ATS.hs
22:52 lightstep line 487 on AST.hs
22:52 nothingmuch no, it's supposed to recurse, running findVar' on the highest env
22:52 xerox 'night folks
22:52 nothingmuch err, highest -> shallowest
22:52 nothingmuch night xerox!
22:52 nothingmuch removing a level for every time package isa CALLER
22:53 nothingmuch as we gathered, the first findVar thingy will match a name which has 'CALLER::' in it
22:53 nothingmuch and will put the part before that in sig, and the part after in name'
22:53 nothingmuch and then should call findVar' oneUpperEnv (newname)
22:55 lightstep it seems to want "<sig>CALLERCALLER::<name'>"
22:55 lightstep i mean, the guard
22:55 lightstep oh, not
22:55 nothingmuch lightstep: it does seem to work
22:55 nothingmuch guard = | ... | otherwise?
22:55 nothingmuch $?CALLER::CALLER::POSITION did not parse before
22:55 lightstep yes
22:56 nothingmuch and now it basically folds into $?CALLER::POSITION
22:56 nothingmuch which folds into $?POSITION in envCaller
22:56 nothingmuch except that envCaller stuff doesn't add up
22:56 lightstep it requires "<sig>CALLER::<name'>"
22:56 nothingmuch yah
22:56 nothingmuch and then it mushes <sig><name> to make a new name
22:58 nothingmuch so how do we recurse upwards through the env stack?
22:58 nothingmuch i don't understand data Env = Env {}
22:58 lightstep it's a record
22:58 nothingmuch ah
22:58 nothingmuch how does one fudge a record's contents?
22:59 lightstep and the field names are the same as the names of the extractor functions
22:59 nothingmuch someEnv <-- envCaller
22:59 nothingmuch will yield the envCaller record of ...?
23:00 nothingmuch findVar' 's env param?
23:00 lightstep (envCaller someEnv) is the obvious field
23:01 nothingmuch err, someEnv <- envCaller
23:01 lightstep it's illegal
23:01 lightstep the thing on the rhs of a <- must be a monad value
23:01 nothingmuch why is envCaller monadic?
23:01 nothingmuch or called in a monadic fashion?
23:01 nothingmuch oh crap
23:01 nothingmuch err
23:01 nothingmuch =)
23:02 lightstep envCaller is a regular function
23:02 nothingmuch rv <- asks envCaller
23:02 lightstep this gets the caller of the current env
23:03 nothingmuch and the current env is ... env?
23:03 nothingmuch obviously not, otherwise it'd be giving back the same thing
23:04 lightstep the env of the current evaluation state
23:04 nothingmuch rv <- asks envCaller env -- does this make sense?
23:04 nothingmuch err, (envCaller env)
23:04 lightstep i need a few moments, to figure out these lines of code
23:08 * theorbtwo returns
23:08 nothingmuch hola theorbtwo  
23:10 DapperDan has joined #perl6
23:12 * nothingmuch yawns
23:13 lightstep now i grokked the code
23:13 lightstep what is the problem?
23:13 nothingmuch it is late
23:13 nothingmuch that's the main problem
23:13 lightstep indeed
23:13 nothingmuch ;-)
23:13 nothingmuch the second problem is:
23:13 nothingmuch envCaller
23:13 nothingmuch err
23:13 lightstep rv <- asks envCaller
23:13 nothingmuch        rv <- asks envCaller
23:13 lightstep yes
23:13 nothingmuch i don't see how it know which env to get the envCaller out of
23:14 lightstep like in env <- ask
23:14 nothingmuch that part i didn't understand either
23:14 nothingmuch lumi pointed out that it's the current env
23:14 nothingmuch and that made sense
23:14 lightstep a type like Eval a contains a value of type a, and an evaluation state
23:14 lightstep it is invisible and magical
23:15 lightstep monadic, in other words
23:15 nothingmuch ... because it is a monad
23:15 nothingmuch ok
23:15 lightstep env <- ask
23:15 lightstep gives env the environment part of that stat
23:15 lightstep *state
23:15 lightstep and asks likewise
23:17 nothingmuch ... parsing ...
23:17 lightstep but you don't want this
23:17 nothingmuch by saying env <- ask
23:17 nothingmuch i, err,
23:17 nothingmuch fudge the monad
23:17 nothingmuch so that asks frobnicates it correctly?
23:18 lightstep yes and no
23:18 nothingmuch for simplicity shall we assume yes or no?
23:18 nothingmuch note that i am no where near monads in YAHT
23:18 lightstep since you want rv to be the caller of env, not of the current evaluation state
23:18 nothingmuch right
23:18 lightstep using asks will get the current evaluation state
23:18 nothingmuch ah
23:18 lightstep to get the caller of env, just use envCaller env
23:19 nothingmuch so i should just do away with the monad stuff
23:19 nothingmuch ok, i see
23:19 nothingmuch case (envCaller env) of ...?
23:19 lightstep yes
23:19 nothingmuch or let rv =  envCaller env
23:19 lightstep both are good
23:19 nothingmuch ok
23:19 nothingmuch sounds logical
23:19 lightstep i'd dispose of the `do', but it's a matter of coding style
23:20 nothingmuch now why didn't we see it before... ;-)
23:20 nothingmuch because now it's not necessary?
23:20 nothingmuch wow!
23:20 nothingmuch ok 3 - caller::caller notation works # TODO
23:20 nothingmuch
23:20 * nothingmuch hugs lightstep
23:20 lightstep now i'll get to the Maybe monad part
23:20 nothingmuch and llumi and larsen and theorbtwo
23:21 larsen :)
23:22 * theorbtwo ?
23:23 pasteling "lightstep" at 212.235.32.146 pasted "findVar name= do env <- ask fi" (25 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8155
23:23 lightstep damn
23:23 lightstep tab doesn't work well
23:24 nothingmuch lightstep: all of pugs' haskell is spaced at 4
23:24 nothingmuch i think
23:24 nothingmuch obra: enjoy CALLER::CALLER, 694
23:24 lightstep i tried to type "tab space" in the edit box, and it pasted
23:24 nothingmuch ah, i get it... heh
23:25 obra nothingmuch: does CALLER::CALLER::CALLER work?
23:25 nothingmuch theoretically yes, it's recursive
23:25 obra col
23:26 Juerd Is there a way to figure out what the first caller namespace is of a caller that isn't the current sub?
23:26 nothingmuch Juerd: rephrase please?
23:27 jabbot pugs - 694 - CALLER::CALLER with lightstep, lumi, and
23:28 saorge has quit IRC ("ERC Version 5.0.1 $Revision: 1.726.2.3 $ (IRC client for Emacs)")
23:29 nothingmuch obra: 695 tests CALLER::CALLER:CALLER, and it works
23:31 Juerd nothingmuch: In a recursive sub, how do you get to the caller of the sub that initiated the recursion
23:31 nothingmuch ah
23:31 nothingmuch errm
23:31 lightstep ouch
23:31 lightstep do you include mutual recursion?
23:31 Juerd s/caller/namespace of the caller/
23:32 lightstep and some functions call themselves on multiple points...
23:32 Juerd lightstep: I don't know what that is.
23:32 nothingmuch eval '$?' ~ join("::", ("CALLER" xx $current_level)) ~ "::POSITION"; # ;-)
23:33 nothingmuch I would guess the proper idiom would be, err, something like:
23:33 nothingmuch sub function { ## blah blah, set up $CALLER:: introspection
23:33 oozy has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
23:33 nothingmuch recursive_function($outercaller_info, @params)
23:33 nothingmuch }
23:34 nothingmuch sub recursive_function ($caller, @params){ ... }
23:34 nothingmuch anyway, i need sleep
23:34 nothingmuch work tomorrow
23:34 Juerd nothingmuch: Or, if we can iterate over the caller stack,
23:35 nothingmuch i don't know how we'd do that though
23:35 nothingmuch is that for p6l?
23:36 lightstep is there a CALLER::sub_id ?
23:36 Juerd $::( (first { not &?SUB :=: &$_ } @?CALLERS).namespace )::_
23:36 * nothingmuch is too tirred to remember what synopsis CALLER/OUTER are in to check what might make sense
23:37 Juerd This was hard to write :)
23:37 lightstep with anonymous functions (closures), it's getting really hard to know what really is recursion and what is just a sequence of successive calls to the same function
23:37 nothingmuch oh my
23:37 nothingmuch Juerd++
23:37 nothingmuch that's beautiful
23:37 * nothingmuch forgot all about :=:
23:37 Juerd I suddenly realised it has no negated version
23:37 nothingmuch and actually $?SUB too
23:37 lightstep what is :=: ?
23:37 Juerd Perhaps :!=: is implied
23:37 nothingmuch lightstep: identity
23:37 jabbot pugs - 696 - Also test for just plain old $?POSITION.
23:37 jabbot pugs - 695 - Also check error condition, and three le
23:38 Juerd lightstep: See my talk for a quick introduction of all weird new operators (except the ones for sub calling)
23:38 nothingmuch the first caller which is not the same thing as $?SUB (the current sub), is what we're after
23:38 Juerd lightstep: http://juerd.nl/, most recent news item
23:38 nothingmuch err, rather, it's namespace is what were after
23:38 nothingmuch then we just smudge that into the $::( <here> )::
23:39 Juerd See the slide titled "Binding"
23:39 nothingmuch Juerd: does caller reach into lexical or dynamic scope?
23:39 Juerd nothingmuch: Any score.
23:39 Juerd $CALLER::foo is $foo as it would be in the caller
23:39 nothingmuch isn't that naughty?
23:39 nothingmuch well, err
23:39 Juerd That can be global, lexical, dynamically global or lexical
23:39 nothingmuch enough rope to hang yourself =)
23:39 Juerd It's like eval '$foo' in a B:: sub in Perl 5
23:39 Juerd eh, DB::
23:40 Juerd (perldoc -f eval)
23:40 Juerd nothingmuch: You get punished by not getting to make use of some optimizations.
23:41 nothingmuch Juerd: thanks for eval link, that's both scary and fun at the same time
23:41 Juerd nothingmuch: See also tnx.nl/include
23:41 nothingmuch also, i'd like to hear about optimisation crap, but tomorrow
23:41 nothingmuch now i sleep
23:41 Juerd I don't know that crap
23:41 Juerd So don't ask me
23:41 nothingmuch because i already am
23:41 nothingmuch ok, i will speculate =)
23:42 nothingmuch uh, why tnx.nl/include?
23:42 nothingmuch for DB::?
23:42 Juerd eval fun
23:42 Juerd With DB::
23:42 Juerd It's actually implementing include() as I want Perl 6 to have by default
23:43 nothingmuch aha
23:43 nothingmuch Juerd++
23:43 nothingmuch Juerd++
23:43 lightstep what us // ?
23:43 * Juerd doesn't dare asking, because people will only say it's PHP-ish and thus bad. However, there are some situations in which very simple inclusion is in fact the best solution, so I'll make it work in Perlego.
23:43 Juerd lightstep: defined-or.
23:43 nothingmuch very nice
23:45 nothingmuch what is perlego?
23:45 nothingmuch perl for foreigners?
23:46 Juerd A better Perl 6.
23:47 Juerd In my opinion.
23:47 Juerd Also, *following* my opinion.
23:47 fxn has joined #perl6
23:47 nothingmuch made by fudging the grammer at runtime?
23:47 nothingmuch or deeper than that?
23:47 Juerd That, and maybe adding some useful methods or functions
23:47 Juerd Maybe macros can implement all I need
23:48 mugwump so will there be seperate directories in Dialects for each specific ego?  :)
23:48 Juerd It should be entirely compatible with vanilla Perl 6
23:48 Juerd So that you can add it to any existing file.
23:48 Juerd brb
23:48 mugwump Maybe I should make one where any() junctions autothread on creation rather than when being passed to a function
23:48 * nothingmuch goes to slee
23:48 nothingmuch well, enough
23:48 nothingmuch p
23:49 lightstep i'll go join nothingmuch
23:49 lightstep g'night all
23:54 nothingmuch has left
23:55 lightstep has quit IRC ("sleep")
23:57 tiw has joined #perl6
23:59 tiw has left "ERC Version 5.0.2 $Revision: 1.726.2.10 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"
23:59 Juerd mugwump: Perhaps

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