Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-15

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00:15 lightstep i seem to get the types more and more right
00:15 lightstep i need people to check out the new extension
00:16 lightstep but it would take some more time
00:24 lightstep how is "my" parsed? or where?
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00:54 lightstep done!
00:57 lightstep has quit IRC ("off to some sleep hopefully")
01:02 kungfuftr moo
01:06 Khisanth Juerd: don't you mean arguments?
01:08 kungfuftr mugwump: yargh
01:08 mugwump :-p
01:09 kungfuftr mugwump: so when will we see Class::Tangram in p6?
01:09 mugwump Class::Tangram is entirely unnecessary in p6
01:10 kungfuftr *blink* though i would have thought relationship stuff would still be somewhat needed
01:10 mugwump Class::Tangram can be summarised as explicit (Run time type information | introspection | reflection)
01:11 kungfuftr ah, far does
01:12 * kungfuftr too tired to think
01:13 mugwump Hopefully, any "extra" information that Tangram needs to be able to represent the structure in the database can be tacked on with traits
01:13 mugwump (I hope I used the right term there - I'm referring to *Class* properties)
01:14 mugwump That way, Tangram will be able to "just work" without really specifying a schema (unless you want to override the default mapping)
01:14 mugwump After all, the "Class" objects are themselves a schema.
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01:58 bd_ hmm, return inside a while loop seems broken
01:59 bd_ pugs> sub foo { while (1) { return 24; } return 42; } foo()
01:59 bd_ (42)
02:10 mugwump you should be exiting the loop nicely!  return jihad!
02:10 bd_ XD
02:11 bd_ well, the whole point of the module I'm writing is to be a hacky implementation of sort-of-regexes for until pugs gets rules... sooo, for now I've added yet another hack
02:11 bd_ but it'd be nice if that worked properly :)
02:11 bd_ though, I have a working next; now :)
02:13 mugwump I still think it would be a great idea to allow the Perl5 regex syntax in pugs via pcre...
02:13 mugwump http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs​/ext/Kwid/lib/perlkwidspec.kwid  # feedback, please...
02:15 Khisanth that would be annoying
02:15 mugwump what would?  the pcre thing?
02:16 Khisanth yes
02:17 mugwump why?
02:18 Khisanth the not quite compatible part
02:18 Khisanth unless you mean to use it as a temporary solution
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02:19 mugwump I don't know exactly which features are missing, but AIUI none of them are really awful being missing.  Not as awful as having POSIX regexes or no regexes at all
02:20 mugwump perhaps the (positive|negative) zero-width look(ahead/behind) assertions would be sorely missed if they're not in PCRE
02:20 Khisanth implement the rules! :P
02:21 Khisanth I think those are in, the look behind might actually be better ...
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02:41 ingy mugwump++
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03:05 mugwump hopefully, the implications of that perlkwidspec will be very minor to the current implementation...
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06:44 autrijus last() fixed; true() implemented; @array[-12345] = 2 is now an error; GHC 6.4 warnings really inhibitied; some other misc fixes.
06:44 autrijus gotta run. bbiab &
06:47 obra hi autrijus
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07:18 nothingmuch autrijus: please look at r744
07:18 nothingmuch which i think should pass, but i'm not 100% sure
07:18 nothingmuch it's got some failing tests
07:18 nothingmuch and i'd actually rather they fail in the way that they do =)
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07:26 nothingmuch gaal: you forgot to attach undef.t
07:26 nothingmuch and in either case you should really just be a comitter
07:26 gaal did not!
07:27 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
07:27 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
07:27 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "no attachment" (19 lines, 569B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8199
07:27 nothingmuch see?
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07:28 nothingmuch anyway, ride will be here shortly
07:29 gaal grr, you're right, it did manage to get lost somehow although i *remember* attaching it. mailers should follow Nat's idea and confirm sending a mail that contains the word "attachment" but which don't have one.
07:30 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "t/base/undef.t" (134 lines, 3.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8200
07:31 nothingmuch svn add, svn ci =)
07:31 nothingmuch don't be shy
07:32 gaal todo_ok($self{"commit"}, "need one to ci");
07:32 nothingmuch (autrijus^obra).invite(gaal)
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07:33 obra gaal: do you have a foundry id?
07:34 gaal this is where i do the "oh, no, yet another source control system to learn" thing :)
07:34 obra gaal: email address?
07:34 gaal obra: let me read a faq about it, sec
07:34 nothingmuch obra: remember t/op/precedence.t?
07:34 * obra is about to head to bed
07:34 obra nothingmuch: yes
07:34 * gaal hurries up
07:34 nothingmuch gaal: openfoundry ~~ sf.net but not commercial
07:35 obra run for free by the taiwanese government to promote opensource in taiwan
07:35 nothingmuch obra: if you like dreaming about precedence attrocities at the design level, look at the bottom of it, there's assignment vs. , and yes
07:35 obra hah
07:35 obra Don't wanna
07:36 malaire I was just implementing index, and found this strange behaviour from perl5:
07:36 malaire index("Hello", "", 999) == 5  # Should perl6 behave similarly or not?
07:36 malaire I'd expect -1 here, not 5.
07:36 gaal anyway obra the main svn site seems to be down, i won't keep you
07:37 obra gaal: huh? it's up to the best of my knowledge
07:37 nothingmuch malaire: if it isn't a bug it's a design bug
07:37 nothingmuch IMHO
07:37 obra svn ls http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
07:37 gaal subversion.tigris.org ?
07:37 jiing has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
07:38 obra that's the dist site for subversion. but you can likely obtain it from your os vendor
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07:38 gaal i have a client. i'm just looking to read about what a foundry id is.
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07:38 obra oh. rt.openfoundry.org
07:38 nothingmuch gaal: err, a foundry == rt + svn server + trove
07:38 obra it's just the project hosting site pugs uses
07:39 gaal ...so why do *i* need one?
07:39 obra so you can commit to svn
07:39 nothingmuch you don't
07:39 nothingmuch it's just the svn you need
07:39 nothingmuch it hosts the server
07:39 nothingmuch you have a login/passwd
07:39 nothingmuch and then you can commit
07:39 obra access to pugs svn is managed through rt.openfoundry.org
07:42 obra gaal has been granted commit rights
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07:42 Alias_ Welcome to the pokemon
07:42 gaal the terms of use are (i suppose) all Hanzi. I'm not signing off my house, am i? :)
07:42 obra you are not.
07:42 obra autrijus has a translation up somewhere
07:42 hcchien I can give you a tranlated page. :)
07:43 obra hcchien: can you get the translated page linked from the main one
07:43 obra ?
07:43 gaal i think i trust you guys. :p
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07:43 obra foundry is becoming international and this keeps coming up
07:44 hcchien http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html
07:44 hcchien obra: yes, I will ask them publish it officially later. :)
07:44 obra  yay
07:44 obra ok. really now sleep
07:45 hcchien nice dream. :)
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07:47 gaal okay, thanks all.
07:48 lightstep how do i update MANIFEST?
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07:49 lightstep some files were deleted in r735, and no wMANIFEST is not updated
07:49 malaire just edit manually, and the svn ci ?
07:51 lightstep there are lots of files
07:52 gaal try cp MANIFEST MANIFEST.old; make manifest, then merge the to with your favorite tool.
07:53 lightstep thanks
07:55 lightstep err, it only adds files to MANIFEST. i'll just delete the missing files manually
07:56 gaal s/cp/mv/ above and retry :)
07:59 gaal i need to co a new tree now that i'm not anonymous, right? what's the magic incantation?
08:00 autrijus nope. just ci.
08:00 autrijus it will then ask for your username just then.
08:00 gaal clever :)
08:00 autrijus all hail DAV ;)
08:00 gaal ok to put undef.t in base/, yes?
08:01 autrijus sure.
08:02 gaal not *quite* smooth; it assumed my unix login was my remote one (not the case). how do i say what my svn user is explicitly?
08:02 autrijus just hit enter
08:02 autrijus and it will ask another username.
08:03 gaal did that; ok, will it now configure the tree with tihs username for next time round?
08:04 autrijus I think so.
08:04 autrijus it does that for me.
08:05 gaal thanks then, ci'ed. think i'll wait a bit before adding it to the makefile and manifest since they seem to be under lightstep's luv right now?
08:07 lightstep Eval.hs is very complicated
08:09 autrijus hmm, some perlmonk there? "dvergin" reported a compile error in his use.perl journal
08:09 autrijus http://use.perl.org/~dvergin/journal/
08:09 autrijus I attempted a fix in trunk now, but has no idea how to tell him to try again and/or turn on comments in his use.perl journal :)
08:10 autrijus lightstep: it is. care to refactor it to Eval/App.hs etc for me?
08:10 autrijus or do you think that won't help? :)
08:11 lightstep i''m trying to figure out the evaluation process, in hope i'll be able to make `my' work in the prompt
08:12 lightstep and then i'll add require, and you can just paste test code, and it'll work
08:12 autrijus ok. what needs to happen is that you need to add a kind of Val in AST.hs
08:12 autrijus mm, that's probably too kluge
08:12 lightstep i just found the correct branch of reduceStatements
08:12 autrijus the trick is to somehow trick the end of reduceStatements to return its env.
08:13 autrijus so we can use that env for the next line around.
08:13 autrijus currently it just returns a Val
08:13 autrijus so you can add a VEnv in AST.hs.
08:13 lightstep yes
08:13 autrijus as part of Val.
08:13 autrijus on the other hand,
08:13 lightstep maybe i'll change the processing of top-level local variables?
08:13 autrijus maybe you can do it be passing in a callCC
08:13 autrijus and trick the env away by feeding it to the callCC.
08:13 autrijus but that may be nontrivial.
08:14 autrijus lightstep: sure, but change how?
08:14 autrijus my original idea is for the REPL to parse the line
08:14 autrijus and add an extra statement after it
08:14 lightstep perhaps a new `reduce' for shell expressions, that handles `my' and `require' specially
08:15 lightstep your idea seems simpler, though
08:15 autrijus yeah, I'd say so.
08:15 autrijus if we can freeze the env as part of a Prim / Statement
08:15 autrijus then that's one step toward serializable continuations.
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08:20 lightstep hmmm, that requires some `inline expression' which is isomorphic to Eval Val
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08:20 autrijus basically Show for Eval Val.
08:21 autrijus instance Show (Eval Val) where ...
08:21 lightstep i mean, adding an expression to the end of the input line
08:21 autrijus oh. yeah.
08:21 autrijus line 181.
08:21 lightstep the expression would have to run arbitrary Eval actions
08:22 autrijus instead of retVal, return a Env/Val tuple.
08:22 autrijus I think that's all there is to it.
08:22 autrijus the Env/Val tuple of course needs to be made a Val.
08:22 autrijus Val VEnv (Env, Val)
08:22 autrijus something like that.
08:23 lightstep maybe there is a place in the Env structure to do things after the end of evaluation?
08:23 autrijus and with the final pad?
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08:23 gaal my Array $a; ... should $a be defined now?
08:23 Darren_Duncan FYI, the bulk of the Algorithm::Dependency port is now done.  There are still some parts that are known to be bad, but they can be addressed later.
08:23 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
08:23 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
08:23 Darren_Duncan If any of you spot something that stands out as wrong, tell me or fix it.
08:23 gaal wow
08:23 lightstep i don't really know what a pad is
08:24 nothingmuch morning
08:24 nothingmuch Darren_Duncan++
08:24 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, about your changing the /modules file types ...
08:24 nothingmuch lightstep: where lexical variables are stored
08:24 lightstep perhaps i'll add an envCaller
08:24 autrijus lightstep: there is an envCaller.
08:24 Darren_Duncan I did a few compares and they showed that nothing actually changed in the files
08:24 autrijus lightstep: it refers to the pad of the dynamic scope's caller.
08:24 nothingmuch env ~~ pad?
08:25 nothingmuch or is env a sort of unification
08:25 nothingmuch of pad + dynamic + global?
08:25 autrijus nothingmuch: env's envLexical is the pad.
08:25 Darren_Duncan mind you, I only used the OSSF web compare
08:25 autrijus Darren_Duncan: right, because on unix that file types means nothing
08:25 Darren_Duncan I assume the update is more like a 'touch' in this case
08:25 scw nothingmuch: hello, there are some tests in t/base/operator.t (line 28 ~ 36)
08:25 autrijus it's on win32 where they made difference.
08:25 autrijus nothingmuch: see AST line 487
08:25 Darren_Duncan It was just that when I did an update, it said all those files were updated, though their contents didn't change
08:25 scw nothingmuch: that would be putted to t/op/precedence.t ?
08:25 Darren_Duncan anyway, no concern
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08:26 autrijus lightstep: so, to answer your question, I'm inclining toward something even simpler
08:26 nothingmuch scw: i think so
08:26 Darren_Duncan If anyone's interested, tomorrow I'm speaking at my local Perl Mongers about what I've just been doing here, writing Perl 6.
08:26 scw nothingmuch: Those are added by me so feel free to move them :)
08:27 Darren_Duncan Are all of you in a local group?
08:27 Darren_Duncan or 'any
08:27 lightstep autrijus, adding another caller at the top seems simple enough
08:28 autrijus lightstep: ok, then go ahead :)
08:28 autrijus lightstep: I'll comment when I see your code :)
08:28 nothingmuch scw: i'll get to that err, later
08:28 nothingmuch very busy at work now
08:29 nothingmuch there is a test case that tests their interaction
08:29 nothingmuch t/op/precedence.t does everything like this:
08:29 nothingmuch given two operator precedence levels
08:29 nothingmuch and and ?? :: are pretty far apart
08:29 nothingmuch adjacent ones
08:29 nothingmuch but it looks like it's a test for a bug
08:29 nothingmuch am i right?
08:29 autrijus lightstep: anyway, I'll elaborate my last pont
08:29 autrijus I think a Syn "dump"
08:29 Darren_Duncan Question re porting ...
08:29 lightstep what is App name invs args ? what is invs, actually
08:30 Darren_Duncan Is there any preference, when a Perl 6 module is meant to match a Perl 5 module ...
08:30 autrijus that is specially taken care in reduceStatements
08:30 autrijus that feeds the lastVal and env back
08:30 lightstep autrijus, that seems right
08:30 autrijus is simplest. but feel free to pursue other ways that seem better to you
08:30 Darren_Duncan Should I make the version numbers the same as the Perl 5 version, or start them over at 0.0.1?
08:30 Darren_Duncan I've been doing option 2 for now
08:30 autrijus lightstep: invs is invocants; args is non-invocant args.
08:30 lightstep ok
08:30 lightstep no
08:30 autrijus $inc.method($arg);
08:31 lightstep so why many invocants?
08:31 autrijus because that's what MMD is for.
08:31 autrijus builtins use multimethod dispatch to determine which functions to call.
08:31 lightstep ok
08:31 Darren_Duncan Q: which Synopsis doc talks about file-handles, remind me
08:32 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I prefer 0.0.1 just for sanity
08:32 autrijus i.e. avoid expectation that it will match bug-for-bug with p5 counterpart
08:32 autrijus but you as the author gets to decide :)
08:33 Darren_Duncan autrijus - okay, I'll leave it that way while modules are in the Pugs distro - authors that publish separately can use whatever system they want
08:33 autrijus yup.
08:33 Darren_Duncan One of the main reasons I put it at 0.0.1 is that the Perl 6 version is very raw and untested ...
08:33 Darren_Duncan While a higher number like the Perl 5 one implies it is well tested and complete
08:33 lightstep autrijus, my current idea is this: add a new Syn, "dump", which dumps local variables to global variables
08:34 Darren_Duncan Here's what I can do ...
08:34 Darren_Duncan 1. use 0.0.1 for brand new and untested ports
08:35 Darren_Duncan 2. when all the tests pass and the module is at feature parity with v5, it will zoom up to match the Perl 5 mod's version number
08:35 Darren_Duncan so unless there's objection, that's my new pattern
08:36 Darren_Duncan is it reasonable to add something about version numbers like this to a general Pugs FAQ somewhere?
08:36 autrijus lightstep: that worksforme as the first cut.
08:36 autrijus Darren_Duncan: you can certainly add it to the kwiki :)
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08:40 Darren_Duncan does Pugs support version numbers yet?
08:41 Darren_Duncan ... eg, module long names?
08:41 Darren_Duncan I'm thinking of sticking a version number on Sample-Module to encourage better coding practices
08:43 scw nothingmuch: Oh, were you talking to me? Away before.
08:43 scw nothingmuch: yes, those three are bugs, in fact, parsing bugs.
08:43 Darren_Duncan I did it anyway
08:44 nothingmuch scw: ok... I think maybe they belong in operators.t if they are parsing bugs
08:44 nothingmuch or maybe in t/syntax
08:44 Darren_Duncan has left
08:44 nothingmuch if they really test that even though op a and op b work ok
08:44 nothingmuch but they might not have distinct precedence, then that's what t/op/precedence.t is about
08:45 nothingmuch i don't mind changing this, but i think the location is good enough at the moment
08:46 scw But I think the main problems on those three tests are the parser doesn't
08:46 scw make ??:: have higher precedence than '=', 'and' or 'or'
08:47 scw According to S03, ??:: should have higher precedence than others.
08:48 autrijus correct.
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08:53 Darren_Duncan ping Ingy
08:53 Darren_Duncan how long have you been planning this freepan thing?
08:53 Darren_Duncan I discovered you had 3 domain names registered, one back in 2002
08:54 autrijus hey Darren_Duncan. I think the author part in module.pm is not yet parsed
08:54 autrijus Darren_Duncan: he's been working on freepan for years.
08:55 autrijus Darren_Duncan: but it's a matter of copying the block in Parser.hs line 294.
08:55 Darren_Duncan autrijus, that's okay, I'm not using the Author part yet
08:55 autrijus hm. can I have the author part without the version part
08:55 autrijus or the version part without the author part
08:55 autrijus according to S11?
08:55 Darren_Duncan afaik, no
08:55 Darren_Duncan version always comes straight after the base name
08:56 Darren_Duncan I can look back at S11 ...
08:56 gaal isn't "use Dog-(Any)-(Any);" real usage?
08:57 autrijus gaal: mm?
08:57 Darren_Duncan according to S11, you can't leave the version out and use author, but you can explicitly say 'Any' for version and specify an author
08:57 autrijus oh. I mean in the module line
08:57 autrijus not the use line.
08:57 gaal ah, ok
08:57 Darren_Duncan so saying nothing in any slot is the same as explicitly saying 'Any' for its effect
08:58 Darren_Duncan in the module line, version seems to be required if you are going to give an author
08:58 Darren_Duncan still, I don't see a problem with that
08:58 Darren_Duncan version is used a lot more often
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09:00 autrijus okie.
09:00 Darren_Duncan Also, I haven't yet decided which form of Author is best to use yet, so I'm simply not using it at all
09:00 gaal Pugs Porting Program?
09:00 Darren_Duncan it's a great feature, though
09:01 Darren_Duncan some people on p6l are planning to do one
09:01 Darren_Duncan make a program to port perl to perl
09:01 autrijus yeah, larry is working on it, and alias here has another technology that may be an alternate way to do it
09:01 gaal hmm, but "PPP" would make it p3; we're three Ps short.
09:02 lightstep what is the second argument ofo reduceStatements (the Exp) ?
09:02 autrijus lightstep: lastVal?
09:03 autrijus the value yieleded from the last reduce
09:03 autrijus it's there in the anticipation that some day we may need to refer to the last value.
09:04 lightstep so should i pass it on if i don't use it?
09:04 Darren_Duncan there is already a mature-ish CPAN module for parsing perl 5 into a syntax tree -- I suppose that would be ideal for generating equivalent perl 6 from
09:04 Darren_Duncan it has a really short name
09:05 nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: PPI
09:05 Darren_Duncan sounds like it
09:05 nothingmuch alias is it's maintainer
09:05 nothingmuch =)
09:05 nothingmuch (i think)
09:06 Darren_Duncan I just looked that up by name, it is what I'm referring to
09:06 Darren_Duncan PPI
09:07 Darren_Duncan http://search.cpan.org/dist/PPI/
09:08 Darren_Duncan if 'alias' equals 'Adam Kennedy' equals 'adamk' then yes
09:09 nothingmuch i think that expr is true
09:10 Darren_Duncan heck, even The Perl Foundation funded completion of PPI, so it must be big enough to use for something like this -- second phrase sayeth the POD
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09:11 Darren_Duncan seeya
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09:29 Darren_Duncan one more thing for those on Mac OS X ... I just , earlier today, installed SubEthaEdit on my machine ... so should there be a future collaboration effort that I might be able to contribute to, I have the means
09:29 Darren_Duncan apparently it was used to great effect yesterday
09:29 gaal anyone have any luck with subclipse and pugs? i can't seem to co the whole project, just subdirs from it?
09:29 Darren_Duncan that is all
09:30 gaal e.g. http://www.geotools.org/Subclipse+Checkout <- don't have a "trunk" dir in the structure
09:30 kungfuftr komodo++ # automagically synced with cvs
09:30 Darren_Duncan has left
09:31 autrijus gaal: it works if you just give it the url
09:31 autrijus instead of opening from a repository..
09:31 autrijus it is perhaps simpler
09:31 autrijus if you just quick eclipse
09:31 autrijus goto workspace
09:31 autrijus check out pugs
09:32 autrijus and add "pugs" as a project.
09:32 autrijus it will automagically work that way
09:32 gaal ok, and import from filesystem?
09:34 autrijus no, just create a new proj
09:35 autrijus eclipse is smart enough that if there is already a directory with the name in the workspace
09:35 autrijus it will just assume its settings from there
09:35 Juerd Khisanth: No
09:35 Juerd Khisanth: true is not a list operator. It is "not", but negated. Or well, "not" is "true", but negated.
09:36 webmind #define true !false ?
09:36 Juerd no
09:36 webmind sounds like dos code
09:36 webmind i know
09:36 Juerd It's not a value
09:37 webmind ok
09:37 Juerd "true $foo" return true if $foo is true, false if $foo is not true
09:37 Juerd The *values* for true and false are bool::true and bool::false
09:37 Juerd Made hard to type because you should never.
09:39 webmind ok
09:39 webmind #define 0 !1
09:39 * Juerd sighs
09:39 Juerd This isn't C
09:40 webmind I know
09:40 webmind sorry
09:40 Juerd And true and false aren't to be used as values
09:40 webmind yes yes
09:40 webmind I got that
09:40 Juerd So their values are highly irrelevant and uninteresting.
09:40 Juerd They could be "yes" and "no" for all we're supposed to care
09:40 autrijus so maybe "true" should be spelled "indeed"
09:40 autrijus ;)
09:40 Juerd autrijus: I was looking for a better name, you found it.
09:41 Juerd autrijus: "true" is a terrible name, violating the least surprise thing. Or possibly: raping it.
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09:41 autrijus haskell has it as "otherwise".
09:41 autrijus but anyway "true" is a bad bad bad name.
09:41 autrijus oh nvm, it's not otherwise in haskell.
09:41 Juerd Yes, indeed that's true. :)
09:41 autrijus it's called "id" in haskell ;)
09:43 Khisanth Juerd: but S03 lists it as a list op :/
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09:43 Juerd Khisanth: That's weird.
09:44 Juerd I can't imagine what it should do with the extra arguments.
09:44 Juerd And it having low precedence doesn't help making it a listop either
09:45 autrijus p6l! p6l! change it to "indeed" or "id"! :)
09:45 autrijus we can always argue that "id" is shorthand for "indeed"
09:45 Juerd It says not is also a list op.
09:45 Juerd I don't know how to interpret that.
09:45 Juerd idd
09:45 autrijus indd
09:45 autrijus caddadaddadr
09:45 Juerd idd is what Dutch people use for "inderdaad" (indeed), and what every english speaking person also understands as "indeed" :))
09:45 Khisanth maybe it acts a bit like undef :)
09:46 Khisanth turns everything in the list to true
09:48 Juerd How useful is that?
09:48 Juerd We have @foo »= 1 for that
09:50 gaal ghc 6.2.2 is out on windows/mingw, right?
09:50 gaal (waiting for the 47mb 6.4.0 do dl...)
09:52 Juerd autrijus: sent
09:52 Juerd I had to read my own message three times before I understood what I had written :)
09:52 autrijus Juerd: danke
09:54 gaal checked in undef.t in manifest + some typo fixes
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09:55 autrijus gaal++
09:56 nothingmuch gaal: i just got a plan error in undef.t
09:56 nothingmuch is it fixed in this update?
09:56 gaal should be 26
09:57 gaal shouldn't there be a way to autoplan? which is better than no_plan, but still lets you not moose aroudn with explicit numbers
09:57 nothingmuch autoplan how?
09:58 gaal anyway nothingmuch, please do try again this time
09:58 nothingmuch you could just read $?FILE
09:58 nothingmuch but see t/base/given.t for how to break that
09:58 gaal nuffin, i once saw someone doing push @tests, sub { a test } .... lots of times, then planning, then running.
09:59 nothingmuch well, that someone was obviously drunk or something ;-)
09:59 nothingmuch i would never stoop so low ;-)
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09:59 nothingmuch either way,  i think with the current state of Test.pm in pugs it's better to either plan or no_plan
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10:00 DrHyde does anyone have a recent enough ghc binary package for debian stable (x86) or OS X 10.2?
10:00 nothingmuch just update the plan when you change things
10:00 DrHyde getting it to build is proving to be a right bugger
10:00 nothingmuch it's supposed to be a human-updated sanity check anyway
10:00 gaal okay, still gettgin basic compilation errors with ghc 6.4 on mingw:
10:00 gaal Chasing modules from: src/Main.hs
10:00 gaal Could not find module `System.Posix.Unistd':
10:00 gaal  use -v to see a list of the files searched for
10:00 gaal  (imported from src/Posix.hs)
10:00 gaal make: *** [pugs.exe] Error
10:01 gaal what, windows isn't posix compliant? *feigns shock*
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10:04 autrijus ...
10:04 autrijus src/config.h needs to say that it doesn't have POSIX I think.
10:04 autrijus did it work with ghc 6.4 on activeperl?
10:04 autrijus (it always workforme so I can't quite tell)
10:05 gaal dunno, i have mingw and cygwin on this box
10:06 nothingmuch autrijus: err, remember t/op/yen.t false-negatives due to prec?
10:06 autrijus nothingmuch: yes?
10:06 nothingmuch now the same issues are biting me in t/op/prec.t
10:06 nothingmuch but the other way around
10:06 nothingmuch please look at the test
10:06 nothingmuch and the spec
10:06 nothingmuch and the impl
10:06 nothingmuch and tell me which of the 3 is insane or wrong
10:06 nothingmuch i believe it's s03
10:06 nothingmuch (insane)
10:06 autrijus I believe S03 is intentional
10:07 nothingmuch well, regardless
10:07 nothingmuch tests based on it are not passing
10:07 autrijus nod. ok.
10:08 nothingmuch btw, we have some tests that look like they should be todo
10:08 nothingmuch inc.t, subroutine_named_params
10:08 nothingmuch should I butcher them?
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10:19 autrijus bbiab.
10:19 nothingmuch ciao
10:19 autrijus nothingmuch: yes, go ahead.
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10:28 Odin-FOO is now known as Odin-
10:33 jabbot pugs - 754 - typo fixes
10:33 jabbot pugs - 753 - undef.t updates
10:33 jabbot pugs - 752 - op3 "index" -- simplified the code
10:33 jabbot pugs - 751 - index works now -- but the code is quite
10:33 jabbot pugs - 750 - Fixing t/op/index.t
10:33 jabbot pugs - 749 - added version numbers to Sample-Module
10:33 jabbot pugs - 748 - Another precedence problem on '='
10:33 jabbot pugs - 747 - AlDep updates - changed all 'foreach' to
10:33 jabbot pugs - 746 - * dvergin reported that -isrc needs to b
10:33 jabbot pugs - 745 - First shot at tests for undef.
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11:03 nothingmuch autrijus: ping
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11:12 jabbot pugs - 756 - Global var test case fixed
11:12 jabbot pugs - 755 - Todoify things that look like unimplemen
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11:42 jabbot pugs - 757 - Fudge things into todo state, make it co
11:44 theorbtwo Morning, guys.
11:44 nothingmuch morning theorbtwo
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11:46 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=439594
11:46 Juerd Let this please kill this useless debate.
11:46 Juerd s/useless/fruitless/
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12:03 theorbtwo Sigh.  Juerd, you left out a critical fact that was in your power to give: print $fh ~~"Some string"; is, in fact, recommended syntax in a CPAN module: i18n.
12:04 theorbtwo It's certianly not a show-stopper in my mind -- I think it should go in.
12:04 theorbtwo But I'm a big believer in full disclosure.
12:05 theorbtwo You might also consider running a set of PM obfus through a B::Concise both before and after your patch, and comparing them.
12:05 nothingmuch print $fh ~~"some string"; # wtf is that?
12:06 theorbtwo It runs "some string" through bitwise negation twice, and prints the result out to $fh.
12:06 theorbtwo (The result being "some string" except in the presence of strange overloads.)
12:06 Juerd nothingmuch: print $fh ~~localtime is a better example
12:06 Juerd It's the lazy way to write print $fh scalar localtime
12:07 nothingmuch ah
12:07 nothingmuch oi vey
12:08 theorbtwo Yes, but nobody recommends actually using that syntax.
12:08 theorbtwo Except golfers, who I agree can probably be ignored.
12:08 Juerd theorbtwo: And when would you print an i18n'ed string to a fh?
12:08 theorbtwo Huh?  Well, me, rarely, because I think everybody should just learn English, dammit.
12:08 theorbtwo People in general?  All the time.
12:08 theorbtwo Producing a localized report.
12:09 theorbtwo In a CGI.
12:09 Juerd theorbtwo: And still, it's not ambiguous in the case of print ~~localtime or $fh->print(localtime) or print$fh+~~localtime or print$fh~+~localtime or print $fh~ ~localtime or print$fh(localtime)
12:10 Juerd theorbtwo: With i18n?!
12:10 theorbtwo I know, Juerd!  I'm not arguing that it's a showstopper!
12:10 Juerd Possible but not likely.
12:10 theorbtwo No, not with i18n.
12:10 crysflame hi, juerd
12:10 Juerd Hello, crysflame
12:10 theorbtwo I'd more likely use Locale::MakeText, which looks very sane.
12:10 Juerd And Perl 5 has a special disambiguator noop for this ;)
12:10 Juerd +
12:11 Juerd So instead of print $fh ~~localtime, use print $fh+~~localtime, it's not even more characters
12:11 theorbtwo I KNOW!
12:11 theorbtwo You're being overly defensive.
12:11 Juerd (Though the space between $fh and ~~localtime is optional, I think anyone not using it is wrong anyway)
12:11 Juerd theorbtwo: I'm trying to be very, very clear
12:11 Juerd That there is no problem.
12:12 theorbtwo You're wrong; there is a problem, but all indications is that it is a very very very small problem.
12:12 Juerd Before I believe that there is indeed a problem, I want to see this syntax used in actual code
12:12 Juerd It's contrived
12:13 Juerd I don't believe *anyone* actually has this in existing pre-today code.
12:13 Juerd And all the golfs continue to work anyway, unless golf prints to an fh, which I don't believe either.
12:14 Juerd In other words: if there is a problem in theory, but not in practice, the theory is wrong :)
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12:21 theorbtwo Juerd, would you like a random sample of the code bits of N obfu off of PM?
12:21 theorbtwo Or, for that matter, N random nodes?
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12:24 crysflame purl: mahna
12:24 crysflame purl: mahna mahna
12:25 crysflame argh, hi #perl
12:25 theorbtwo is now known as hash-perl6
12:25 hash-perl6 Hi, crysflame.
12:25 hash-perl6 is now known as theorbtwo
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12:26 theorbtwo Mornin, lightstep.
12:26 lightstep good afternoon
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12:27 theorbtwo Good morning, hlen.
12:27 theorbtwo Why do people always join a bunch at a time?
12:27 lightstep i joined 'cause i committed
12:27 lightstep which is because lunch is over
12:28 * theorbtwo wonders if anybody fixed his assert_ghc thing.
12:28 lightstep autrijus did
12:29 lightstep tests are starting to fail all over the place
12:31 nothingmuch lightstep: i have a loop, which watches svn up and pops up a window on test fails
12:31 nothingmuch afaict it's no different than what it was several hours ago
12:31 nothingmuch except some fixes i made
12:32 jabbot pugs - 758 - more work on the command shell: it's now
12:33 lightstep nothingmuch, i'm not on that scale. i remember that once all tests passed, now some fail
12:34 nothingmuch ah
12:34 Juerd theorbtwo: Why?
12:34 nothingmuch well, undef.t is sort of ok to fail
12:34 nothingmuch gaal hasn't decided whether it's bugs or todo
12:34 nothingmuch autrijus can prolly veto it
12:34 nothingmuch i also committed a test that looks like it uncovers some bugs
12:34 nothingmuch it's causing 3 fails
12:34 lightstep all rest are todos?
12:35 kungfuftr me-- # bah
12:35 lightstep ?
12:35 nothingmuch and scw also submitted a test case for a bug
12:35 kungfuftr inc.t foulup
12:35 nothingmuch lightstep: there should be 9 subtests failing as of head revision
12:35 nothingmuch kungfuftr: nevermind, i cleaned it up
12:36 kungfuftr =0)
12:36 nothingmuch it wasn't that bad, btw ;-)
12:36 * kungfuftr shouldn't commit stuff when he's stressed out
12:36 lightstep yes, 9 fail
12:37 gaal you guys get a syntax error on t/syntax/subroutine_named_params too?
12:37 nothingmuch lightstep: they have all been investigated
12:37 nothingmuch gaal: i fixed that
12:37 lightstep kungfuftr, i did it yesterday. fucked up some part of Main.hs
12:37 nothingmuch lightstep: apart from undef.t where I don't know if they should fail, all should fail because they are bugs
12:37 gaal i was actually waiting for autrijus to say if the undef.t fails are ok or should be moved to todo
12:38 nothingmuch ok, so lets leave it as fail
12:38 gaal "todone" :)
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12:40 gaal i have 2 new trivial cases, but it's not worth a commit.      also, there are about 20 tests i imagine waiting to be written in undef but they are majorly todo (rules, subs etc).. should i write them in eval?
12:40 theorbtwo Sounds good.
12:41 lightstep is the parsing of n-ary operators working?
12:41 theorbtwo N-ary prefix operators?  Should be.
12:42 gaal so: i say "my Array $an_ary;" . Should $an_array be defined now (my guess is not)?
12:42 lightstep i mean, is $a Y 4b Y 4c different from ($a Y $b) Y $s as they should be?
12:42 kungfuftr lightstep: yar, i'm a perfectionist though, so it doesn't bode well for me
12:43 theorbtwo Oh, that'd be a listop  (All listops are unary, at least as far as Prim.hs is concerned.)
12:43 * lightstep looks at the screen
12:44 lightstep the way i wrote the expressions, they don't seems alike at all
12:45 Juerd theorbtwo: Why?
12:45 theorbtwo I have no idea.
12:45 Juerd Then why ask?
12:45 lightstep Juerd, they get a list of arguments as a single parameter
12:45 theorbtwo Why ask what?
12:45 Juerd No, re PM obfus
12:46 theorbtwo Oh.
12:46 theorbtwo Because it's a selection of perl code that's not written to standards.
12:46 theorbtwo I thought you were asking about listops.
12:46 Juerd Sure
12:46 Juerd Do you have a screen scraper for it?
12:46 nothingmuch gaal: you should use eval everywhere it doesn't parse or is fatal to run, but other than that, as little as possible, IMHO
12:47 nothingmuch lightstep: infix nary works now
12:47 nothingmuch but (@a Y @b) Y @c is broken as a result
12:47 nothingmuch look at t/op/zip.t
12:47 nothingmuch autrijus said it will take a lot of work
12:48 theorbtwo I'm a god, Juerd; I can find ways of getting what I want.
12:48 Juerd Ah
12:48 Juerd I'd like a sample, yes
12:48 Juerd afk  # need to go
12:49 nothingmuch ciao Juerd
12:49 lightstep the whole parsing module looks totaly irrational (or maybe unhaskellish)
12:50 nothingmuch could be ;-)
12:50 gaal nothing, clearly, but the question was whether to go ahead with wiriting tests that knowingly need the eval. i decided yes
12:50 nothingmuch either way, i know that nary and listop are sort of half-baked solutions, which should be better implemented with MMD
12:50 theorbtwo I can't think of many reasons why I'd not want a correct test, and all of them are bad reasons.
12:59 nothingmuch gaal: provided that the test is correct
12:59 gaal well, i hope it is, but it's kinda hard to say :)
13:00 nothingmuch i.e., when the feature is there it will work both with and without eval
13:00 nothingmuch well, 80% of the work has been done, in theory
13:01 gaal classes? types? subs? rules?
13:02 lightstep aren't subs done?
13:03 nothingmuch lightstep: some
13:03 nothingmuch but it's a big thing
13:03 gaal autrijus said no, yesterday at least.
13:03 nothingmuch syntax/subroutine_named_params tests struff
13:03 nothingmuch unspecced/cont* does other things
13:04 nothingmuch but i reckon there's lots more
13:04 nothingmuch err, objects should be fun
13:04 nothingmuch but i reckon it won't work till it all works, for the most part
13:05 nothingmuch start by trying to test moderately complex examples
13:05 nothingmuch like a class with delegation
13:05 nothingmuch see what you hit on the way
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13:05 nothingmuch (class defs, opaque type, isa_ok, accessors, instance variables, etc)
13:05 nothingmuch and test that too
13:06 lightstep how should i document modules?
13:06 nothingmuch lightstep: theoretically in kwid
13:06 nothingmuch but pod is probably also ok
13:07 lightstep is there an introduction to kwid?
13:07 nothingmuch to kwid i'm not sure
13:07 nothingmuch let me look at some irc logs
13:08 nothingmuch i'm not sure whether it's a spec draft, or an intro
13:08 nothingmuch to get a conceptual you should read Juerd's pod tutorial
13:09 nothingmuch kwid and pod are similar enough for it to be beneficial
13:09 gaal anyone get tests to run in Eclipse, please say how in the wiki
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13:10 nothingmuch ./ext/Pugs-Documentation/perlkwid.kwid
13:10 nothingmuch ./ext/Pugs-Documentation/perlkwidspec.kwid
13:10 nothingmuch oh, he left
13:13 decay is kwid as slow as kwiki?
13:14 nothingmuch decay: ingy should probably be up in a few hours
13:14 nothingmuch he should be able to answer that, i guess
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13:29 stevan morning nothingmuch
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13:32 theorbtwo Allo, fayland, b6s
13:32 theorbtwo And stevan, I suppose.
13:32 fayland hellp theorbtwo
13:32 fayland what;s the meaning of b6s
13:32 stevan morning orbtwo
13:33 fayland o ,i see . a man
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13:39 iblech Hi, there seems to be sth. wrong with (implicit) numifying
13:40 iblech ./pugs -e 'say int +"1.01"' ==> 1 (correct)
13:40 iblech ./pugs -e 'say int "1.01"' ==> 0 (wrong)
13:41 nothingmuch morning stevan
13:41 iblech The problem doesn't seem to be related to "int": ./pugs -e 'my @a = <a b c>; say @a["1.01"]' ==> a (wrong, correct is b)
13:42 theorbtwo BTW, iblech, no reason to have your bot log the channel; there's already logs at http://xrl.us/e98m
13:44 iblech theorbtwo: Jup, know, but my webinterface is better :) see http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/iblechbot-2.png
13:46 theorbtwo Hm, does look quite slick.
13:47 iblech theorbtwo: Thanks :)
13:52 scw Seams because in ghc, reads "1.0" becomes []
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14:07 nothingmuch is anyone writing a test for this?
14:09 autrijus greetings!
14:09 nothingmuch hola autrijus
14:10 autrijus yo. what's up?
14:10 theorbtwo G'morning, autrijus.
14:10 theorbtwo Looks like ibelch found a bug: ./pugs -e 'say int "1.01"' ==> 0
14:10 theorbtwo nothingmuch is about to write a test, I think.  ;)
14:11 pasteling "iblech" at 80.81.8.11 pasted "Test for bug regarding numifying of Strings" (4 lines, 93B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8207
14:11 autrijus iiinteresting.
14:11 nothingmuch =)
14:11 gaal hey. r760 adds more TODOs to undef
14:11 autrijus nice
14:11 gaal autrijus, there are three failures i'm not sure are bugs or TODOs
14:11 autrijus sure. what are them?
14:12 jabbot pugs - 760 - More tests (many TODOs)
14:12 jabbot pugs - 759 - * add back 'eval' for ghci debugging; 'm
14:12 Juerd That SubEthaEdit thing is so cool, I might get a mac mini just to see people hack :)
14:12 nothingmuch Juerd: save money
14:12 gaal aggregates: how do they work with undef and defined()?
14:12 nothingmuch pearpc
14:12 Juerd pearpc?
14:12 nothingmuch it's a ppc/chrp emulated for i386
14:13 theorbtwo PPC emulator.
14:13 nothingmuch or maybe not only for i386
14:13 Juerd That measn I need an OS X license that I can never get OS-less hardware for
14:13 nothingmuch think bochs, only the other way around
14:13 theorbtwo It's what I use for SEEing, but it's a bit on the bugy side.
14:13 gaal if i say undef @ary, shouldn't it be !defined()?
14:14 autrijus I'd say so, yeah.
14:14 theorbtwo No; definedness is a property of a scalar, not an array.
14:14 nothingmuch err, $100 for osx vs $500 for mac mini
14:14 nothingmuch =P
14:14 autrijus uh.
14:14 autrijus I thought undef is a value and undef anything returns that.
14:14 mattc Err, the need to define sub before they're called... is that just a pugs implementation issue? (just starting with perl6/pugs - is this the right place for these kinds of questions??)
14:14 autrijus mattc: that is a pugs TOOD.
14:14 autrijus err, TODO.
14:15 gaal ok. oh, also, %hash{"bar"} ; ok(!defined %hash{"bar"}) does not obtain.
14:15 mattc ah
14:15 mattc cool
14:15 autrijus mostly because we had not had BEGIN support.
14:15 theorbtwo That'd be a bug, gaal.
14:15 autrijus and that's mostly because $real_work :-/
14:15 autrijus gaal: that is definitely a bug.
14:15 theorbtwo Right, it returns an undefined value, which can be stuck in an element of an array.
14:15 Juerd nothingmuch: But when you look at it that way, that makes the mac mini a $400 machine
14:15 mattc ok
14:16 Juerd nothingmuch: Which runs Linux and is thus by itself much worth it.
14:16 nothingmuch Juerd: well, sure
14:16 * Juerd doesn't have a lot of money, but likes spending it wisely
14:16 autrijus oh btw.
14:16 autrijus int '0x123'
14:16 Juerd And that doesn't always mean choosing the cheapest option
14:16 gaal well, the same happens with delete %hash{"bar"}.
14:16 autrijus is 291
14:16 nothingmuch autrijus: bottom of t/op/inc.t - are those parse bugs? misimplementations? or what?
14:16 mattc where is the TODO - is it in the distro somewhere?
14:16 autrijus not sure if it's a bug.
14:16 autrijus I'd argue it's a feature ;)
14:16 theorbtwo I'm not sure -- ask p6l?
14:16 Juerd autrijus: IMO, strings should numify as they would if they were literal numbers
14:17 nothingmuch Juerd: /me just bought $200 earphones and argues it's one of the best buys he ever did
14:17 autrijus Juerd: that is what pugs do.
14:17 Juerd This has afaik not yet been discussed on p6l, but I have been meaning to
14:17 autrijus Juerd: raise it? I hope to get a quick "ok" from larry
14:17 Juerd But perhaps someone else should start the thread
14:17 Juerd autrijus: I've raised too much already, I think.
14:17 decay Juerd: btw: http://vim.dindinx.net/orig/html/remote.txt.php :)
14:17 nothingmuch decay: subetha is more than that
14:17 nothingmuch it's collaborative
14:18 decay i know
14:18 nothingmuch vim can do that too?
14:18 Juerd decay: What about that?
14:19 Juerd Oh, it's about the document
14:19 Juerd decay: Looks very complex
14:20 mattc autrijus: where is the authoritative TODO list?
14:20 Juerd nothingmuch: I should note that I have been looking for excuses to buy a mac, and the mini made it affordable
14:20 nothingmuch mattc: grep -r todo_ t
14:20 mattc oh - I see
14:20 nothingmuch Juerd: it is a very good platform, albeit with some drawbacks
14:20 Juerd nothingmuch: Also, I have been looking for a smaller enclosure for my PC
14:20 mattc thanks
14:21 Juerd I don't know if I'd like OS X
14:21 Juerd I'd have to use it for a few weeks first
14:21 * nothingmuch 's reasons for using it are that it mostly works
14:21 nothingmuch for every day use it's less config savvy
14:21 Juerd One thing that scares me is that you can't install a 2nd harddisk in the Mini
14:21 Juerd Which means no RAID 1
14:21 Juerd Which is scary.
14:21 nothingmuch but i don't like configuring everything
14:21 Juerd I have the same problem with my laptop.
14:22 nothingmuch given a good enough toolset and something that works good enough out of the box, i'm happy
14:22 nothingmuch and osx has that for me
14:22 Juerd KDE has that for me mostly
14:22 nothingmuch what if you yank out the cdrom?
14:22 Juerd But I'm willing to give OSX a try
14:22 Juerd nothingmuch: That means I don't have an optical drive anymore.
14:22 decay Juerd: you can raid to an usb disk
14:22 webmind Juerd, usb/fw drive
14:22 Juerd decay: Won't that be very slow?
14:22 gaal uhhhh, this gives an error:
14:22 gaal %hash{"bar"} = "baz";
14:23 nothingmuch usb2 or fw - shouldn't notice
14:23 gaal when that key already exists
14:23 decay Juerd: if it's usb2 or firewire it'll probably be acceptable
14:23 nothingmuch gaal: test test test!
14:23 decay Juerd: the builtin disk is 2.5" anyway
14:23 gaal it kills the test, nm
14:23 webmind Juerd, replace the optical drive with a disk and use a fw/usb optical drive ?
14:24 nothingmuch gaal: even in an eval?
14:24 webmind hmm, /me has very bad experiences with usb2 and duplex
14:24 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "can't reassign to hash elem?" (217 lines, 5.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8209
14:25 Juerd webmind: I don't know
14:25 webmind Juerd, what ?
14:25 jabbot webmind: what is gugod?!
14:25 Juerd webmind: The small size is practically gone with an external optical drive
14:25 gaal nuffin, please confirm at http://sial.org/pbot/8209
14:25 webmind jabbot, sorry ?
14:25 jabbot webmind: Tell me more about that.
14:25 webmind jabbot, about what ?
14:25 jabbot webmind: Tell me more about that.
14:25 gaal no, not in an eval
14:26 webmind darnit
14:26 gaal sorry, i lagged
14:26 nothingmuch then test in an eval =)
14:26 Juerd webmind: It's a /bot$/
14:26 webmind Juerd, yeah.. got that :)
14:26 webmind Juerd, yeah.. probably the same if you want an external drive for raid ?
14:29 gaal so, uh, yeah, even in an eval!
14:29 lightstep has joined #perl6
14:29 nothingmuch oi
14:29 Juerd webmind: No, that'd be 3.5"
14:29 nothingmuch bug autrijus
14:29 gaal autrijus: ping
14:29 webmind Juerd, portable slimdrive isn't that much bigger in volume ?
14:30 Juerd Does anyone have experience with 1.2 versus 1.4 GHz PPCs?
14:30 Juerd Is the .2 GHz worth $100?
14:30 gaal looks like serious breakage in hash -- or maybe i'm misusing the syntax?
14:30 Juerd webmind: But much more expensive than cheap harddisk + enclosure
14:30 nothingmuch ppcs usually don't need much mhz
14:30 gaal well, i'm ci'ing this then.
14:31 Juerd nothingmuch: Which means 200 MHz is a big improvement?
14:31 nothingmuch no
14:31 webmind Juerd, true.. but I'm not so sure about the performance for usb disks for raid
14:31 webmind no dma..
14:31 gaal r762
14:31 nothingmuch r761 - "1.01"
14:32 Juerd Ah well, I'll go for the expensive option I think
14:32 jabbot pugs - 762 - Seems to expose fatal bug in hashes
14:32 jabbot pugs - 761 - int("1.01") eq 0 fails
14:32 Juerd It takes them 2 weeks to deliver one. That's LONG.
14:32 webmind Juerd, 17% speed increase
14:33 nothingmuch webmind: not bloody likely
14:33 webmind Juerd, your going to do raid over usb/fw ?
14:33 nothingmuch the bus is probably the same speed
14:33 webmind nothingmuch, uhuh
14:33 Juerd webmind: No, no raid
14:33 Juerd External backups
14:33 nothingmuch and ram/disk are usually the limiting factors
14:33 webmind ah k
14:33 Juerd I'm getting 512 MB anyway
14:33 Juerd 256 is very little
14:33 webmind yes
14:34 webmind I heard memmory @ macshops is expensive though
14:34 nothingmuch it is
14:34 nothingmuch but i'd invest in 1gb instead of 200mhz more
14:34 gaal i've no experience with macs, but i'd not buy a computer with less than 1gb ram today
14:34 Juerd nothingmuch: That's $250
14:34 Juerd Not going to do that
14:34 Juerd Maybe I'll upgrade later
14:34 gaal check if you can buy non-apple maybe?
14:34 Juerd But $250 extra is too much for now
14:35 webmind if the bus speed is staying the same.. I don't the the 0.2ghz is going to matter much ?
14:35 Juerd gaal: I want a small box and I've been wanting to try an Apple for a while
14:35 gaal for PCs, 512MB is about $100 where i live
14:35 webmind well more heat maybe
14:35 Juerd gaal: No PC enclosure is this small and this silent with this processing power.
14:35 gaal no i mean
14:35 gaal only the RAM
14:35 Juerd gaal: Oh, right. Probably.
14:35 webmind gaal, elcheapo here is 60euro
14:35 gaal they probably OEM it from kingston anyway
14:35 Juerd It's SO-DIMM though
14:35 Juerd Which is not as cheap as normal dimm
14:36 webmind Juerd, don't buy the mem from mac ?
14:36 Juerd How about: get 512 MB now, save for another 512 and then add that
14:36 webmind could do that
14:36 Juerd There's no reason to rush things
14:36 webmind uhuh
14:36 webmind 512mb is enough usually
14:36 Juerd Except I find 2 weeks very long
14:36 Aankhen`` How about: donate the money to Aankhen``? :-D
14:37 Juerd In 2 weeks, pugs will have all of Perl 6 implemented
14:37 Juerd And by then I can no longer see SEE in action :)
14:37 gaal just make sure you're not screwed with the wrong config -- ie that you have a free slot and all that
14:37 Juerd gaal: Apple's very clear about that. The option explicitly says it's a 1 dimm config with 1 free
14:37 webmind Juerd, find a retailer with them in stock ?
14:37 Juerd Oh, hm, no
14:37 Juerd Just that it's 1 dimm
14:37 Juerd I think it'll have 2 slots though
14:38 Juerd And if not, then my current choice doesn't matter anyway :)
14:38 gaal :)
14:38 Juerd webmind: Good idea. Apple retailers in our country?!
14:38 webmind Juerd, sure
14:38 Aankhen`` Have rules been implemented?
14:38 webmind Juerd, but now to find one with mini's on stock :)
14:38 webmind Juerd, afaik there are 2 in the hague
14:38 Juerd webmind: Dutch people think apples are fruits. Where are these apple retailers you think exist?
14:39 webmind vt100 sells apple I think.. but they don't have any on stock
14:39 webmind and there's another one in the hague
14:39 webmind that might have stock
14:39 Juerd url?
14:39 webmind and there is one in amsterdam I think..
14:39 webmind lukkie bought his mini there afaik
14:40 webmind Juerd, good one :)
14:40 webmind Juerd, goudengids ?
14:40 * gaal needs a break. see you later.
14:42 stevan has joined #perl6
14:42 webmind Juerd, sounds bad.. more people complaining about backorders
14:43 Juerd What does?
14:43 lightstep has quit IRC ("will join again soon")
14:44 nothingmuch Juerd: i'd be nitpicky and equip it with both wifi and bluetooth
14:44 lightstep has joined #perl6
14:46 webmind Juerd, http://www.ljs.nl/
14:46 Juerd nothingmuch: Doesn't it support USB dongles at all then?
14:46 Juerd The airport is expensive
14:46 nothingmuch airport is good
14:47 decay hm, the bluetooth adapter is overpriced
14:47 nothingmuch bluetooth for $30 more is about as expensive as a dongle
14:47 nothingmuch at least now
14:47 Juerd webmind: baggersite :)
14:47 nothingmuch if it's bundled
14:47 Juerd nothingmuch: What's so good about airports?
14:47 nothingmuch Juerd: laptop fun
14:47 Juerd It's not a laptop
14:48 nothingmuch it can be a base station
14:48 Juerd (It's smaller... :P)
14:48 nothingmuch it can be away from cables if needed
14:48 webmind Juerd, true
14:48 Juerd I have an access point. In fact, I have three.
14:48 nothingmuch ah
14:48 nothingmuch in that case, don't bother ;-)
14:48 Juerd And ethernet cables everywhere :)
14:48 Juerd practically
14:48 Juerd "Macs met ervaring zijn ideaal voor:
14:48 Juerd - Windows gebruikers die op zoek zijn naar een echte computer"
14:49 * nothingmuch would never ever want to have more than 2-3 computers
14:49 Juerd ("Experienced (used) macs are ideal for: - Windows users looking for a real computer"
14:49 Juerd )
14:49 webmind nothingmuch, why not ?
14:49 nothingmuch too much trouble, configuring, etc
14:49 Juerd nothingmuch: I have two computers: one workstation at home and a laptop, which is my workstation at the office
14:49 nothingmuch i want one puter to do the lifting
14:49 nothingmuch one puter to call my own
14:49 Aankhen`` I need three compooterz.
14:50 theorbtwo We've got six in our appartment, for two users.
14:50 * webmind has 2 wireless computers/routers, a laptop, a laptop from work and a pda
14:50 nothingmuch and maybe another one for playing around, or being a sort of backups
14:50 webmind most stuff just works
14:50 webmind plan on building a development machine
14:50 Juerd apple--  # wont ship USD minis outside the US
14:50 webmind and one for hosting
14:50 Juerd And they use 1:1 EUR:USD
14:50 webmind Juerd, uhuh
14:50 theorbtwo Wow.  That's harsh.
14:50 Juerd Smart, though. :)
14:51 Juerd Oh, I need the dutch one
14:51 Juerd For the BTW
14:51 Juerd (VAT)
14:51 theorbtwo You could get somebody in the US to recieve it, and re-ship it.
14:51 webmind Juerd, the inc btw price is also the same between germany and the netherlands
14:51 theorbtwo Might still be cheaper.
14:51 Juerd webmind: Then .nl is better :)
14:51 Juerd Cheaper for me
14:51 theorbtwo No import duties if you mark it "gift".
14:51 webmind uhuh
14:51 webmind theorbtwo, right
14:51 webmind theorbtwo, doesn't work
14:51 Juerd theorbtwo: Enter dutch customs :(
14:52 Juerd They're actually good at what they do
14:52 webmind theorbtwo, if they estimate the value above somethling 20 euros
14:52 theorbtwo Oh, I thought that was an EU-wide thing.
14:52 webmind there's nothing EU wide but fucked up laws
14:52 webmind and eu subsidies
14:52 lightstep copyright policy?
14:52 Juerd apple++  # they manage to convey lack of keyboard and mouse as something positive
14:53 webmind Juerd, how ?
14:53 nothingmuch Juerd: don't forget that in the US they don't include taxes etc
14:53 theorbtwo Oh, yeah, forgot about that.
14:53 nothingmuch because law doesn't require it
14:53 theorbtwo Well, that's not true.
14:53 theorbtwo They need to pay sales tax if they have a presence in the state in question.
14:54 webmind nothingmuch, neither do you have to pay taxes in certain states or if you live in a different state
14:54 theorbtwo But I bet they're real crafty about that.
14:54 Juerd nothingmuch: Customs will add them
14:54 nothingmuch webmind: true, but err, stuff usually compilcates onwards
14:54 webmind Juerd, but you call/visit the retailer ?
14:54 Juerd webmind: Their site sucks
14:54 webmind nothingmuch, never had issues with it
14:54 nothingmuch when ordering from abroad i always add a 30% overhead
14:55 webmind Juerd, yes.. but I hear the shop is good
14:55 webmind they're not a webshop
14:55 Juerd The ljs thing?
14:55 theorbtwo Last time I got something shipped internationally that wasn't marked as a gift, I ended up paying >100% duties on it.
14:55 webmind yes
14:55 xern has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
14:55 Juerd Do you know where it is?
14:55 webmind yes.. the hague
14:56 Juerd ... :)
14:56 webmind http://www.ljs.nl/Resources/kaartje.jpeg
14:56 webmind map
14:56 Juerd Are they likely to have minis in stok?
14:56 Juerd Ah, I see the route page now
14:56 webmind the thick black lines are the trainrails
14:56 webmind Juerd, dunno.. call 'm ?
14:59 autrijus rehi.
14:59 autrijus I've threw in a cheap hack to get 1.0 parsed as int.
14:59 nothingmuch hola autrijus
15:00 * autrijus reruns the tests to see what's failing
15:02 jabbot pugs - 763 - * cheap hack to get '1.0' to VIntify
15:02 nothingmuch autrijus: t/base/num.t passes now?
15:02 iblech nothingmuch: t/base/num..........................ok
15:04 lightstep autrijus, did your fix cancel the whole non-integer numbers?
15:04 * nothingmuch forgot if it's todo_is or is
15:04 lightstep s/the whole/all the/
15:05 iblech nothingmuch: they're isa_ok and is
15:05 nothingmuch yeah i see now
15:06 lightstep err
15:07 webmind Juerd, tried machouse in rotterdam ?
15:08 autrijus lightstep: my fix just takesWhile (/= '.')
15:08 autrijus lightstep: again, cheap hack
15:08 ingy hola
15:09 nothingmuch autrijus: lumi asks if ¥ is lazy
15:09 nothingmuch i assume all listops are lazy, in a way?
15:09 theorbtwo Allo, ingy.
15:09 autrijus that is my interpretation also.
15:10 theorbtwo Sorry if I was overly harsh the other day.
15:10 ingy hi theorbtwo
15:11 ingy theorbtwo: no worries. I should just get stuff done instead of spouting about it.
15:12 PerlJam has joined #perl6
15:13 nothingmuch Juerd: when you do buy a mac, i have some power user tips
15:13 nothingmuch like harnessing Kicker
15:13 nothingmuch and doing funny vt100 codes that make background compilation a breeze
15:14 autrijus scw: I'm re-reading your ??:: writeup now. it's helpful.
15:15 ingy autrijus: I've never seen MSWin32 use C:\usr\lib for privlib
15:15 ingy it can't be an ActivePerl
15:18 autrijus ingy: AP can change install path.
15:18 autrijus which is likely what happened
15:18 Juerd webmind: No
15:18 autrijus or maybe no AP, but MinGWPerl
15:18 autrijus but the idea is that we shouldn't bork out...
15:18 Juerd nothingmuch: Kicker?
15:18 Juerd nothingmuch: And 'breeze'?
15:18 webmind Juerd, it's near rdam CS, so not too far
15:19 nothingmuch breese?
15:19 nothingmuch breeze <-- righter
15:19 Juerd Ah
15:19 nothingmuch easy, err, fun
15:19 Juerd nothingmuch: What is it? :)
15:19 Juerd Why easier/more fun?
15:19 nothingmuch Kicker is a nice, sort of hidden feature
15:19 webmind Juerd, nm.. macmini temp. sold out
15:19 ingy autrijus: definitely. I just put that in there to see if it ever would happen. I got my answer. fixing...
15:19 autrijus danke!
15:20 nothingmuch and another thing is some coolness (http://homepage.mac.com/uucee/m​acosx/terminal-app-hints.html) to make your terminal effective
15:20 nothingmuch i have a script, for example, that runs our build system
15:20 nothingmuch it docks the window, and then raises it if it sees '***' in stderr, and raises it when it's done
15:20 nothingmuch same thing for the test harness
15:20 nothingmuch mui fun
15:30 * nothingmuch writes a growl based rss reader thingy
15:30 nothingmuch XML::RAI + XML::RSS::Timing + Mac::Growl
15:30 nothingmuch anyone intersted, bug me in a while
15:31 ingy autrijus: did not you say yesterday that you can assign to %Config?
15:31 ingy ie $Config{archlib} = 'C:\usr\lib';
15:32 nothingmuch hmm... maybe there was a misunderstanding
15:32 nothingmuch autrijus: is it per runtime?
15:32 nothingmuch or is it actually persistent?
15:32 autrijus ingy: I meant that you write write to Config.pm.
15:32 autrijus s/write/can/
15:32 autrijus nothingmuch: persistent.
15:32 nothingmuch but not via the tie interface?
15:33 ingy %Config::Config is read-only
15:33 autrijus not unless you override STORE.
15:33 autrijus which you can
15:33 autrijus just won't be pretty.
15:33 nothingmuch why not?
15:33 nothingmuch it doesn't need to be efficient or anything
15:33 FOAD_ has joined #perl6
15:33 autrijus I'd do with overlaying %Config instead.
15:33 nothingmuch it can just rewrite Config.pm
15:33 autrijus use Config '%Config'; my %c = %Config; untie %Config; %Config = %c;
15:34 FOAD has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:34 nothingmuch and keep %c in a storable?
15:34 autrijus ingy: it's read only because it's tied... just untie it
15:34 autrijus something like that.
15:35 ingy our %Config = $Config::Config;
15:35 nothingmuch and for lookups etc, at runtime, perl internally goes to %Config?
15:35 ingy Odd number of elements in hash assignment at util/PugsConfig.pm line 6.
15:35 autrijus ingy: s'$'%'
15:35 nothingmuch tr/$/%/;
15:35 ingy ack
15:35 ingy I'm not awake yet
15:35 nothingmuch =D
15:35 nothingmuch autrijus: our %Config = $Config::Config;%'
15:36 ingy nothingmuch: :P
15:36 autrijus yeah whatever :-p
15:44 Juerd webmind: hoe weet je dat?
15:47 Juerd ah
15:47 Juerd *overal* uitgeverkocht
15:51 pmichaud has joined #perl6
15:53 gaal autrijus, there seems to be a fatal error inside an eval in the latest undef.t; can you take a look?
15:53 autrijus greetings pmichaud-san
15:53 autrijus pmichaud: we have pugscc now :D
15:53 pmichaud autrijus: wow
15:53 pmichaud coolness
15:53 autrijus gaal: I'm fixing ??:: now. give me 5 min?
15:53 pmichaud ??:: is a real pain
15:53 autrijus it is!
15:54 autrijus I'm currently making them both binary leftSyn
15:54 autrijus and add a special rule for :: to eat ??
15:54 autrijus and report a syntax error when it's not seen
15:54 autrijus same for the lone ??
15:54 autrijus the problem of course is that they have to be alone in that prec level
15:54 autrijus which they are.
15:54 autrijus but I don't want to think about user-defined ternary at other prec levels.
15:54 * autrijus frowns
15:55 autrijus pmichaud: let me know if you've found a solution to that in Rule mode
15:55 gaal sure, autrijus, i just needed som sort of ack :)
15:55 pmichaud I don't think we're allowing user-defined ternary
15:55 autrijus gaal: ack
15:55 pmichaud certainly not in 6.0.0
15:55 autrijus oh. whew.
15:55 autrijus what about user-defined operators that occupies equiv prec level
15:55 autrijus as ??:: ?
15:55 autrijus that will also throw many things off.
15:55 autrijus can we outlaw them too? ;)
15:55 pmichaud I don't even think there's going to be a name for ??:: that one could use
15:56 autrijus I thought it's &ternary:<?? ::>
15:56 autrijus but I might be imagining things
15:56 pmichaud lemme look
15:56 pmichaud I hadn't seen a ternary: category yet
15:56 autrijus good, then.
15:56 autrijus is there a plan for statement:<> ?
15:56 pmichaud well, it's entirely possible I just overlooked it
15:56 lightstep so what are op3 and op4?
15:57 autrijus I've read lwall's post
15:57 Juerd autrijus: Instead of referring to yen as "the unicode form of Y", you can use &yen; in HTML, for use.perl.org, iirc
15:57 pmichaud I'm still wondering about statement:<>
15:57 autrijus but that is still fuzzy in my mind
15:57 autrijus Juerd: danke!
15:57 pmichaud I have a few ideas about statement:<>, but that's part of what was holding me back on a few items as well
15:58 pmichaud my response back to lwall on that post (when he sent it to me a month or so ago) was that we'd probably use top-down parsing for everything down to expressions, then bottom-up parsing for expressions
15:58 autrijus right, I remember you saying that.
15:58 autrijus which makes sense.
15:58 pmichaud so statement-level items would tend to be handled via rec-descent
15:58 autrijus user-defined statement:<>?
15:58 autrijus how does user define a statement:<> ?
15:58 autrijus in particular the signature will look weird.
15:59 autrijus because it's not call-by-value or call-by-ref
15:59 autrijus it's call-by-ast
15:59 autrijus in order to make things like elsif{} work
15:59 pmichaud yes.  One of my questions to luke was how else/elsif would work
15:59 * autrijus crosses finger for an answer
15:59 pmichaud and I think the quick answer is that we're not going to worry about statement:<> too much, at least in 6.0.0
15:59 autrijus oh. ok.
16:00 autrijus a bit disappointing, but much more relief
16:00 autrijus ok, then I think pugs's parser is actually in a fine shape :)
16:00 pmichaud well, I'm not sure how well that particular aspect of the design has been thought through
16:00 autrijus nod nod
16:00 pmichaud we know that we want people to be able to modify the grammar, and statement:<> may have been an idea of an approach that could be used to do it
16:00 autrijus but the param type is so weird I can't quite understand it.
16:01 lightstep doesn't pugss' parser contain rip offs from other packages?
16:01 autrijus I mean, I can understand if we make the whole AST into objects
16:01 pmichaud but there may be better ways to do it, and it's better to just start playing with simpler implementations to figure that out than to try to spec every last detail in advance :-)
16:01 autrijus lightstep: rip offs? in README and LICENSE and Parser.hs I clearly say it's based on parsec
16:01 autrijus err, Rule.hs
16:01 lightstep why not import parsec instead?
16:02 * lightstep doesn't read documentation&license
16:02 autrijus lightstep: because before pugs 6.2.0 I'm going to move Parsec into Eval.
16:02 autrijus lightstep: i.e. make it a monad transformer
16:02 autrijus operating on IORef
16:02 jabbot pugs - 764 - Fix for weird Win2k config
16:02 autrijus (or on ReaderT)
16:02 autrijus instead of a monad it itself
16:02 autrijus lightstep: as it stands we can't eval stuff inside parsec and retain the env.
16:02 autrijus or the callCC
16:02 autrijus but perl6 rules is going to require that.
16:02 autrijus and more immediately:
16:03 autrijus my $x = BEGIN { 2 + 3 };
16:03 autrijus needs that as well.
16:03 pmichaud yeah, I'm doing pge work today/tomorrow
16:03 pmichaud I'm hoping to have the new pge ready by tomorrow evening
16:03 pmichaud I've also cleared the weekend for perl6 work
16:03 autrijus so I forked parsec into Rule.hs to work on it more. SyntaxNinja also did some cleanup. everything will go upstream when it makes sense to do so
16:03 autrijus pmichaud++ # nice!
16:03 pmichaud no kids, no girlfriend, no other jobs :-)
16:03 autrijus ooh.
16:04 autrijus pmichaud: so, PGE won't target parrot AST, right?
16:04 autrijus just pasm
16:04 ingy is that rule5 or rule6?
16:04 autrijus and/or pir
16:04 ingy ;)
16:04 autrijus ingy: rule6
16:04 autrijus ;)
16:04 pmichaud pge is targeting pir, because we don't have a parrot ast :-)
16:04 autrijus right. but assume we have :)
16:04 pmichaud but pge is in bootstrap mode
16:04 autrijus (actually we have, it's just 1) not working 2) not documented)
16:05 pmichaud pge is written in c/pir at the moment, and will stay there until other things are far enough along that I can write pge in perl 6
16:05 pmichaud or, more likely, until someone else decides to rewrite pge in perl 6 :-)
16:05 autrijus you know, if you write pge in perl 6 now, I can run it in pugs :)
16:05 ingy autrijus: nope. 5:
16:05 ingy 5) Be Obsessed. Great software is created by obsessed people. Integrate your projects into your life. Breathe them. Too hectic for your family oriented life style? Maybe you aren't cut out for this.
16:05 autrijus oh. that rule.
16:05 ingy haha
16:05 pmichaud ingy: don't worry, I'm obsessed enough :-)
16:06 * ingy got flamed for that
16:06 pmichaud autrijus: I'm keeping the pge via pugs route open at the moment,  yes :-)
16:06 autrijus :)
16:06 ingy pmichaud: you are in a fortunate position.
16:06 pmichaud ingy: that's for sure.
16:15 autrijus ok, I think I've fixed ?? ::
16:15 autrijus testing.
16:20 sorje has joined #perl6
16:25 Limbic_Region autrijus - do you ever get a chance to keep up with use.perl journals relating to Pugs?
16:26 Limbic_Region I ask only because I would be willing to keep you aprised of journal entries and/or posts at the Monastery if you don't have time
16:26 autrijus Limbic_Region: that'd be lovely.
16:26 Limbic_Region since I am not contributing to Pugs in any other meaningful way
16:26 autrijus lwall++
16:26 autrijus I'm going to make it so.
16:26 autrijus so it so good.
16:26 autrijus err, I mean, so is so good.
16:26 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~drhyde/journal/23658 # how to get ghc on debian or osX
16:27 * autrijus perceives endless punning possibilities
16:27 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~dvergin/journal/23656 # pugs 6.0.11 and ghc 6.4 not working on windows
16:27 autrijus I fixed dvergin's bug
16:28 autrijus it's just I can't seem to comment on his
16:28 autrijus journal and I don't know how to contact him.
16:28 autrijus I'd be happy if you can help.
16:28 Limbic_Region by default, use.perl journal entries don't have comments enabled
16:28 autrijus which is sad.
16:28 Limbic_Region he is also a monk - I will /msg him
16:28 autrijus danke
16:28 autrijus just say it should be fixed in trunk and please try trunk.
16:28 gaal oh, speaking of journals, http://www.livejournal.com/users/autrijus_rss/ for the LJ users out there.
16:29 Limbic_Region bitte - will also let him know he needs to enable comments (should be the default I think)
16:29 autrijus yuppers.
16:29 theorbtwo Ah, ja, thanks for pointing that out to me the other day in a /msg.
16:29 autrijus hrm, ??:: hates me :-/
16:29 * autrijus hates back
16:31 autrijus 1 ?? $x = 3 :: $x = 4
16:31 autrijus this is legal, even if = is lower prec than ??::
16:32 jabbot pugs - 765 - * so() is the new true().
16:32 autrijus 3 ?? 4 and 4 :: 5 and 5
16:32 autrijus but this is a syntax error.
16:33 autrijus what is the difference between the "and" level and the other levels?
16:33 Limbic_Region autrijus - when you get time - http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=434969
16:33 theorbtwo so('this' is christmas)
16:33 Limbic_Region there are also several pugs/windows questions - I will report that it is fixed in the latest trunk and for people to try that
16:34 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=439183 for instance
16:34 Limbic_Region Makefile(400) : fatal error U1087: cannot have : and :: dependents for same target
16:34 autrijus that's fixed.
16:34 autrijus it's caused by space in path
16:35 autrijus and makemaker's inability to deal with them.
16:35 autrijus 'fraid I can't help.
16:36 autrijus pmichaud: perl5 thinks that "3e100" is a number.
16:36 pmichaud autrijus: yeah, I know, and I've always thought that's a bug
16:36 pmichaud :-)
16:36 autrijus and "3e9999" is Inf.
16:36 pmichaud well, it is a bug :-)
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16:36 pmichaud I mean, "3e100" is a number, the question is which number
16:36 pmichaud :-)
16:36 pmichaud i.e., is it 3 or 3e100?  ;-)
16:37 autrijus you think it should be 3?
16:37 autrijus I happen to think that also.
16:37 pmichaud I'd prefer it to be just 3
16:37 autrijus for great consistency.
16:37 theorbtwo In p5, I think it should be just 3.
16:37 Coke has joined #perl6
16:37 autrijus theorbtwo: be surprised.
16:37 theorbtwo In p6, I'm not all that sure.
16:37 pmichaud yeah, there are a couple of surprises like that lurking in p5
16:37 autrijus perl -e "print int('3e3')
16:37 autrijus 3000
16:37 Coke (perl6 testing) instead of inventing a new test API, why not just implement the p5 test API?
16:38 autrijus Coke: we are following the p5 test API, if you are talking about harness TAP
16:38 autrijus and we're working with a close approximation between Test.pm and Test::More.
16:38 autrijus leaning toward Test::More more.
16:38 pmichaud coke: also, part of the advantage of having a new language is that we have new constructs and paradigms to work with in that language
16:39 autrijus pmichaud: ok, so barring a larry ruling, I'll make '3e100' parse to 3. :)
16:39 pmichaud what good is perl6 if we just carry all of perl5's idioms into it?  This isn't to say we summarily reject any interfaces that p5 has developed, but we do often need to re-evaluate them with a fresh eye and say "well, is this the way we think it should work in p6"?
16:40 lightstep so will p6 not have scientific notation?
16:40 pmichaud lightstep: my post was in response to coke's question about the testing, sorry
16:40 autrijus lightstep: no, 3e3 is still 3000. "3e3" however is not.
16:40 autrijus at least today.
16:40 Coke pmii - as you yourself have mentioned, that's not a job for the compiler authors.
16:40 pmichaud autrijus: I think we'll definitely need a ruling from p6l on numification of strings
16:41 autrijus Coke: uh. eh. why is it not?
16:41 lightstep the sensible thing is to use the same lexer
16:41 autrijus lightstep: except people will then write "Infamy" and parse to Inf.
16:41 Coke ... y'all are not the language designers, neh? you're the language implementors.
16:41 Coke sorry, "all y'all". =-)
16:41 pmichaud coke: is the testing framework part of the language?
16:42 Coke It's a standard module.
16:42 pmichaud coke: clearly we can implement *a* testing framework
16:42 autrijus Coke: I consider it my sacred duty as a CPAN author to design the language. :)
16:42 pmichaud and we can implement one that makes it easiest to do what we need to do
16:42 Coke to sum up: "this argument should be occuring in p6l, not p6i", that's all.
16:42 gaal This day will be remembered in infinty and beyond.
16:42 Coke er, "not p6c"
16:43 autrijus is Test.pm brought up on p6c?
16:43 autrijus oh, test logging.
16:43 lightstep autrijus, i'd consider such things to be nonsense. truncation is good, but accepting any prefix is bad
16:43 autrijus lightstep: perl has a very long tradition to parse "3blah" into 3.
16:43 autrijus lightstep: 'fraid that's not going to go away.
16:43 autrijus in light of that, better make it consistent.
16:44 autrijus (also, I'm not saying it's particularly sane, but it's part of the perl mindset, afimc.)
16:44 pmichaud coke: ah, I see where you're coming from.  
16:44 lightstep lack of knowledge of perl makes me incomprehenful. but i accept that it is the way
16:45 pjcj When reading from a file, is the input a string?  ie, will  echo 3e3 | perl -ple '$_ += 2'  behave as in perl5?
16:45 autrijus lightstep: thanks for your understanding. :)
16:45 pmichaud coke:  I think the answer is that the compiler implementors may write many things that help us along the way to build the compiler that will be thrown away in the long run
16:45 pmichaud i.e., bootstrapping
16:45 autrijus pjcj: it is a string, so it will be 2, not 3002, in this case.
16:46 autrijus pjcj: but it's not set in stone (yet).
16:46 pmichaud coke: and yes, many people will be tempted to mold the language in their particular direction by being first to implement a module.  But we have to trust that things will shake out in the long run
16:46 autrijus Coke: also bear in mind that perl6 will probably have no core modules.
16:46 Coke pmi: I'm just annoyed at the amount of non compiler traffic I've been "forced" to endure.
16:46 pmichaud coke:  If we have to wait for approval/discussion of every item on p6l before we see an implementation, then we'll never have one.  :-)
16:47 pmichaud coke: well, whenever you detect something that seems non-compilerish, just send me a private note and I'll push it to p6l if it's appropriate
16:47 autrijus mmm perl6-modules
16:47 * autrijus ponders the need for another ML
16:47 pmichaud I was out of town wed-sun and didn't have good email connectivity
16:48 pmichaud coke:  I agree with you that we ended up with some non-compiler traffic on p6c, but we know there's going to be some fuzziness as things go along
16:48 Coke ... pmi, that's what I'm doing.
16:48 autrijus Coke: I agree that it clearly doesn't belong in p6c. but I'm not sure all p6 module discussion belong in p6l either.
16:48 pmichaud ah, there we go :-)
16:48 Coke and now I run away to go work on Tcl, on the off chance I'll beat you to parrot.
16:48 * Coke . o O (yah, right.)
16:48 pmichaud coke -- wait
16:49 Coke yessssssssssssssssssssssss?
16:49 pmichaud btw, I wanted to thank you very much for all of your effort in getting the strings code into parrot
16:49 pmichaud that is a *huge* help to me
16:49 Coke ... Thank *cvs*.
16:49 pjcj perl6-stdlib exists
16:49 gaal ah, autrijus, since i know you're using it -- repeating a  question from before -- any hints on running make test / prove from eclipse?
16:49 pmichaud yeah, but it still needed someone who knew a bit more about it pushing, and you were the primary one pushing to get it done.  So, thanks.
16:49 Coke 95% of what I did was a cvs merge. the rest was simple fixup. that just got it to "compile". leo did all the heavy lifting after that.
16:50 Coke <-- can't take a compliment.
16:50 autrijus gaal: I don't do that, so I don't know
16:50 Coke and even if I *did* get it to work, I was still waiting for dan to say "what next".... but I think leo was paying attention there.
16:50 pmichaud anyway, I'm doing PGE this week and hope to have a fairly complete implementation by this time next week
16:50 autrijus pjcj: reallly.
16:50 Coke Cool. I look forward to your p5 implementation so I can use it in Tcl. =-)
16:50 autrijus moving things to perl6-stdlib looks sensible.
16:51 gaal ah ok :) anyway we don't have perl6 support in epic yet and all that so the Problems view isn't going to be very useful anyway.
16:51 autrijus if not now, certainly some time after now
16:51 autrijus gaal: aye.
16:51 pmichaud anyway, all, I have to go to meet with my financial advsors... bbl
16:51 autrijus but I set my perl into pugs.exe
16:51 Coke laters.
16:51 Coke has quit IRC ("leaving")
16:51 autrijus and it at least can tell me if it compiles.
16:52 pmichaud has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.1/20050225]")
16:52 gaal autrijus: yes, i got that far :) i think i'll go back to vim, since i'm not hacking the haskell parts anyway and that's just dandy for perl (even 6)
16:52 saorge has joined #perl6
16:52 autrijus nod.
16:54 lightstep one more thing about interpolating numbers: if " 3e3 " is 3, will " { 3e3 } " also be 3 ?
16:54 lightstep s/interpolating/parsing/
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16:58 nothingmuch channel splits are silly
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16:59 theorbtwo IRC is a simple tree topology; there's no redundancy whatsoever.
16:59 theorbtwo You get infinite loops if there are.
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17:00 * autrijus purrs.
17:00 gaal so does my cat!
17:01 autrijus kosimus in #haskell gave me the spark of light to do ??:: correctly.
17:01 autrijus namely, treat "?? ... ::" as an infix operator.
17:01 autrijus that's all it will take
17:01 * autrijus hacks
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17:07 ninereasons I don't understand the use of the .perl method.  May I have an example?
17:07 autrijus when you see .perl, think Data::Dumper::Dump
17:08 ninereasons ah - ok.  That's helpful.
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17:12 ingy when you see .yaml ...
17:13 autrijus heh.
17:13 autrijus ($str3 eq $str4) ?? $bar = 1 :: $bar = 0;
17:13 autrijus pugs correctly parsed it as
17:14 autrijus (($str3 eq $str4) ?? $bar = 1 :: $bar) = 0;
17:14 autrijus so I'm fixing operator.t.
17:14 autrijus to say
17:14 autrijus ($str3 eq $str4) ?? ($bar = 1) :: ($bar = 0);
17:14 autrijus instead.
17:14 nothingmuch we have ?? :: as lvalue? sweet!
17:14 autrijus and now, lo and behold, all passes.
17:14 autrijus nothingmuch: not yet :D
17:14 nothingmuch or is it just parsed that way?
17:15 autrijus it's parsed that way
17:15 nothingmuch =/
17:15 autrijus which is correct.
17:15 nothingmuch naughty autrijus
17:15 nothingmuch won't work 24/7
17:15 autrijus but not what the tester was testing.
17:15 autrijus lol.
17:15 autrijus 24/7 is 3.4hrs per day.
17:15 nothingmuch 24 * 7 then
17:15 autrijus I think I spend more time than that on pugs :)
17:16 autrijus yay I see my favourite message again!
17:16 autrijus UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED
17:16 * autrijus goes unTODOing stuff
17:16 nothingmuch =D
17:16 vladtz has joined #perl6
17:22 jabbot pugs - 766 - * ?? :: now works correctly, thanks to k
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17:32 jabbot pugs - 767 - * add kosmikus to AUTHORS; remove old te
17:43 gaal uh how do i take a reference to a sub?
17:43 autrijus \&sub
17:43 autrijus or just &sub
17:43 autrijus actually just &sub.
17:43 gaal thanks
17:50 gaal &undef_sub should die, yes?
17:50 gaal undefined
17:51 autrijus it should die because there's no such sub.
17:51 autrijus same as $undefined_var
17:51 gaal k
17:52 gaal via the symbol table, is this the syntax i need? (it doesn'y work): %{ $?PACKAGE }::{"&a_sub"}
17:54 autrijus is there still a symbol table?
17:54 autrijus I thought globs are gone
17:54 autrijus I don't know if symtable is left.
17:54 gaal S11 mentions it.
17:54 autrijus grep around a bit and ask on p6l if it's not there?
17:54 autrijus oh. sorry.
17:54 gaal though not for subs
17:54 autrijus where?
17:54 jabbot autrijus: where is current TODO?
17:55 gaal http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S10.html#___top last line
17:56 gaal urr, wrong link
17:56 gaal last line in section "packages" in that page
17:56 autrijus oh. S10.
17:56 gaal oops, yes, i am typlectic.
17:57 autrijus ok. so there is still a symbol table implemented as a hash.
17:57 obra yay
17:57 autrijus very well, we will do that.
17:57 autrijus write tests please.
17:57 gaal anyway, if there are no symbol tables, how does one dispatch a sub by name?
17:57 obra "can I tie the symbol table"?
17:57 gaal hahaha
17:57 autrijus gaal: of course there is a symtable.
17:57 autrijus gaal: it's just how we expose it on the language front.
17:57 gaal autrijus: goodie, i was lookging for something to do :)
17:57 autrijus we probably do it as an IType.
17:58 autrijus obra: and yes, that means you get to tie it.
17:58 autrijus or add pre/post FETCH/STORE hooks.
17:58 autrijus imagine the sickitude.
17:59 gaal heh, me, I just wanted symmetry for ok(defined(&sub_that_exists)) :-)
17:59 autrijus oh. defined() as special form.
17:59 gaal so autrijus, did i get the syntax right?
17:59 gaal ok?
18:00 gaal s/k/h/
18:00 autrijus I always thought that the defined(&x) form is weird.
18:00 autrijus and it looks like it may go away in p6, because &x is now just a variable.
18:00 theorbtwo Right, but is it just a variable that is undef when no such sub exists?
18:00 obra ok (&main::x)   ?
18:00 theorbtwo (Consider the case of taking a reference to a sub that will get AUTOLOADed.)
18:01 obra how do you not call thesub?
18:01 Juerd It takes 6 weeks before a mac mini arrives
18:01 Juerd They're too popular
18:01 autrijus theorbtwo: so why only &x gets that treatment and not $x?
18:01 Juerd By amazing and fortunate coincidence, I can pick up mine tomorrow.
18:01 theorbtwo &foo doesn't call the sub anymore in p6.
18:01 Juerd :)
18:01 autrijus obra: &foo never calls the sub.
18:02 theorbtwo defined(&::foo), then?
18:02 jabbot pugs - 768 - * per pmichaud's suggestion, intifier no
18:02 obra wait. &foo doesn't call subs now?
18:02 autrijus gaal: %{"$?PACKAGE\::"}{'&a_sub'}
18:02 obra aiee
18:02 obra I mean, I'll live.
18:03 autrijus &foo is just a Code object.
18:03 autrijus &foo() # still calls.
18:03 autrijus the idea is to make \ go away.
18:03 autrijus gaal: or, using better quoting:
18:03 autrijus %<<$?PACKAGE\::>><&a_sub>;
18:03 gaal autrijus, thanks; should this work now, or is this todo?
18:04 autrijus that is todo. symtable is not yet exposed.
18:04 autrijus please write tests.
18:04 gaal (ACK.) x2
18:04 autrijus (thx) xx 2
18:04 gaal how do you pronounce "autrijus" btw?
18:05 autrijus http://autrijus.org/autrijus.mp3
18:05 crysflame heh!
18:05 gaal lol
18:06 obra you really need "My name is Autrijus Tang and I pronounce Autrijus as Autrijus"
18:06 obra in English, German and Chinese.
18:06 obra also, lojban.
18:06 autrijus also esperanto.
18:06 autrijus and tengwar.
18:06 gaal i'm not the only one who hears it as "outrageous", right?
18:07 autrijus it's remarkably close in sound to "outrageous"
18:07 crysflame that makes sense, phonetically
18:07 crysflame obra++
18:07 crysflame autrijus++ # tengwar
18:07 * obra discovers autrijus has a livejournal
18:07 autrijus the "i" in "tri" is more "ee"  though
18:08 autrijus a deadjournal.
18:08 autrijus 48 commits today.
18:08 autrijus that's 2x the daily output rate I remembered
18:08 autrijus what's wrong with you guys? :)
18:09 obra autrijus: get clkao to set up metrics
18:09 obra daily churn
18:09 autrijus or gugod.
18:10 * obra nods
18:10 obra or really, for every project on foundry
18:11 theorbtwo I've been told it's something like the beginning of "ought", then "re" as in reply, and "jus" somewhat like "juice".
18:11 theorbtwo (By leira.)
18:11 autrijus that is also true.
18:11 autrijus but "jus" is shorter.
18:12 theorbtwo Hm, "justice" works better.
18:12 gaal don't forget the tonality, folks. :)
18:12 autrijus and the resonance field
18:13 gaal anyone try running it backwards yet?
18:13 theorbtwo The resonance field is very important; you need to tune the modalities of the main deflector dish.
18:16 gaal this is failing. should it?
18:16 gaal sub a_sub { pass "sub"; 1 }
18:16 gaal a_sub || fail "a_sub";
18:17 autrijus short circuit?
18:17 gaal doesn't || do that?
18:17 autrijus yeah, short circuitting is borken.
18:17 gaal ah ok
18:17 autrijus tests tests :)
18:18 autrijus (not sure if there's already one for that tho)
18:18 obra what ended up happening with named params?
18:18 gaal i'll ditch this test from undef.t (carried it off perl5's, no idea why it was trheere.)
18:18 gaal don't work yet obra last i tried them
18:18 autrijus obra: oh, I discovered that the names were passed in as part of pair
18:18 autrijus which is a bug
18:18 autrijus kept meaning to fix it. maybe I'll do it now.
18:19 obra apparently, the foo<bar> syntax is also not parsable
18:19 autrijus i.e. if you pass (name => "value")
18:19 autrijus then $name gets set into ('name', 'value')
18:19 autrijus which is why it's mostly borken now.
18:19 obra ah
18:19 autrijus and yes, :foo<bar> is not yet parsed.
18:21 Juerd WTH is splat.t +x?
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18:22 jabbot pugs - 769 - Revamped perlkwid to latest understandin
18:22 gaal Juerd, don't say that word!
18:22 Juerd Which?
18:22 jabbot Juerd: Which is not as cheap as normal dimm
18:23 gaal the one that caused irc to join "", split //, "split"
18:23 Juerd The netsplit happened before that
18:23 obra what's the convention for parsefailing tests?
18:23 Juerd Your client (irssi?) probably buffered the quits
18:23 gaal not from my POV
18:23 FOAD has joined #perl6
18:23 gaal trillian here
18:23 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:23 theorbtwo is(eval 'yadda', 'whatever', 'name of test')
18:23 Juerd Does it show many quits, or one informative line, gaal?
18:24 gaal many.
18:24 Juerd Then weird.
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18:24 gaal obviously your region of spacetime was warped, warped by the disruption.
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18:32 nothingmuch *sigh*
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18:32 nothingmuch why does sleep -1 cause infinity?
18:32 * nothingmuch wants p6 to sleep properly
18:32 gaal maybe it causes infamy?
18:32 Khisanth -1? what is that suppose to do?
18:33 crysflame how do you test for that, too
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18:34 autrijus nothingmuch: it cause infinity error?
18:34 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
18:35 nothingmuch no
18:35 nothingmuch it just sleep to infinity
18:35 nothingmuch i'd like to reliably say sleep($next - time)
18:35 nothingmuch but i can't, i have to say
18:36 autrijus I think in p5
18:36 autrijus sleep -1
18:36 autrijus is also infinity.
18:36 autrijus so failing to see the problem
18:36 nothingmuch if (my $s = sleep($next - time)){
18:36 nothingmuch sleep $s;
18:36 nothingmuch i'm complaining about p5
18:36 nothingmuch }
18:36 nothingmuch since p6 has Inf, it should be used instead of -1
18:36 nothingmuch i'd like p6 to be different
18:36 nothingmuch quick, off the top of your head
18:36 nothingmuch fastest way to make html into plaintext
18:36 theorbtwo sleep(Inf) sounds good to me.  I'd expect sleep(-1) to be an error.
18:37 theorbtwo "Sorry, can't reverse time."
18:37 theorbtwo lynx --print, something like that.
18:37 gaal yeah, there's iliaz's optimization to get_tomorrow_date {}....
18:37 autrijus w3m -dump
18:38 theorbtwo Or HTML::TreeBuilder->new_from_content​("<html><head...</html")->as_text.
18:38 * autrijus notes that p5 also has Inf.
18:38 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i'd rather it be zero
18:38 nothingmuch but perhaps return undef
18:38 nothingmuch and die on use fatal;
18:38 gaal open in browser and copy paste?
18:38 autrijus it's just written as "1e99999"
18:38 nothingmuch damnit: Scalar value @queue[0] better written as $queue[0]
18:38 nothingmuch p6 is getting to me
18:38 nothingmuch theorbtwo: thanks, that will do the trick
18:39 autrijus damn it, I was tabbing to see where is this "damnit" person you are talking to.
18:39 autrijus irc is getting to me.
18:39 theorbtwo (Note that'll leak, unless you save the HTML::Element you get back, and $tree->delete it.)
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18:40 Khisanth autrijus: of you need sleep :)
18:40 autrijus I do, I do.
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18:41 nothingmuch theorbtwo: ah, that's important to know
18:45 lightstep what happens with `:l' in the prompt? there is code for it in Main.hs, but the parsing is disabled at Shell.hs?
18:46 autrijus lightstep: Main.hs is just stub.
18:46 autrijus I think :l should just be dispatched to eval "require".
18:46 autrijus i.e.
18:46 autrijus :l Test
18:46 autrijus err
18:46 autrijus :l Test.pm
18:46 autrijus should be translated to "require 'Test.pm'"
18:46 autrijus and evaluated.
18:46 lightstep i'll do it?
18:47 autrijus yay!
18:47 lightstep in a few hours
18:47 lightstep friend &
18:47 autrijus :)
18:47 gaal (in hugs and probably ghci, either of ":l Mod.hs" and  ":l Mod" work, so may as well make bothw rok heretoo?
18:47 theorbtwo Why :| ?
18:47 gaal "load"?
18:47 autrijus :l
18:47 autrijus not :|
18:48 autrijus try Andale mono or Anonymous :)
18:48 autrijus gaal: sure, that'd be cool also. maybe just test ifFileExists
18:48 theorbtwo Oh, :L
18:48 gaal :L.lc
18:49 theorbtwo The shell is case-sensitive?
18:49 theorbtwo Oh well, I got persistancy with :r, I'm happy.
18:49 ingy Juerd: ping
18:49 Juerd pong
18:49 Juerd But not for long
18:50 ingy I added a table example to perlkwid.kwid
18:50 Juerd I'll have a look
18:50 Juerd Have you found problems with my spec yet?
18:50 ingy not yet
18:50 Juerd (It's been in my head for a while already, so I hope there are none)
18:50 ingy but I haven't even had coffee
18:51 Juerd I have energy drink for you if you want
18:51 Juerd We got 20 trays of 24 free
18:51 Juerd So we have plenty
18:51 gaal man, that's a lot of drinks.
18:51 Juerd Yes.
18:51 gaal maybe barter them for RAM?
18:51 Juerd One fridge plus enough to fill another.
18:52 Juerd gaal: They're unlabeled, so they may not leave the building unempty.
18:52 ingy Juerd: sure, bring one over
18:52 Juerd No, they can't leave the building
18:52 Juerd You'll have to come and drink it here
18:52 gaal maybe invent a way of turning them into ram?
18:53 gaal see, if einstein had it only off-by-one (in ASCII) -> e=mb (squared!)
18:58 nothingmuch woot, rssgrowl done, in about 10 minutes
18:58 nothingmuch fun fun fun
18:59 theorbtwo rssgrowl?
19:00 theorbtwo (HTML::TreeBuilder)++, BTW.
19:00 theorbtwo See also utils/fixauthors.pl, or whatever I called it.
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19:08 nothingmuch sorry
19:08 nothingmuch rssgrowl is an rss aggregator
19:08 nothingmuch which uses growl (http://growl.info)
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19:57 ingy fyi: I started #kwid for non pugs related kwid discussion
19:59 theorbtwo Hm, I wonder if YAS should note that message from lilo.
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20:11 nothingmuch w00t
20:12 * nothingmuch finally has an RSS reader he likes
20:12 nothingmuch now all i need is to find some feeds ;-)
20:13 gaal fwiw LJ is both an aggregator and a source of many feed.
20:13 lightstep take the commit feed for pugs :)
20:13 gaal feeds
20:13 nothingmuch lightstep: that's partially the reason why i wrote it
20:13 nothingmuch gaal: how about a link for yours?
20:14 theorbtwo http://www.livejournal.com/user/<username>/rss
20:14 * nothingmuch wonders if there is a human readable dbm
20:14 theorbtwo gaal's is, unsurprsingly, 'gaal'.
20:15 nothingmuch =)
20:15 gaal just add /data/rss/ to anyone's 'j
20:15 gaal but if you join lj you get to read my l33t friends-only entries.
20:15 nothingmuch never ever ever
20:15 nothingmuch we discussed it already
20:15 nothingmuch my login is taken
20:16 gaal yeah, but there was no way i'd pass on an opportunity to mention that again :)
20:16 nothingmuch =P
20:16 theorbtwo nuffinmuch isn't.
20:16 nothingmuch i'll sign up just to be a friend, if you promise to never try to make me blog
20:16 gaal hereby publically promised!
20:17 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i'd actually prefer nuffin for consistency with PAUSE given choice
20:17 gaal (another pro is to get email notification of comment replies)
20:17 theorbtwo nuffin is taken, though.
20:18 nothingmuch it is too?!
20:18 nothingmuch oh my
20:18 nothingmuch i thought self deprecation was really unique at the time
20:18 nothingmuch everyone was hot_girl12
20:18 nothingmuch or coolGuy17
20:18 nothingmuch or overlord
20:19 gaal woobling is free...
20:19 theorbtwo I thought odd was taken, but since I needed to become "theorbtwo" because of too many "theorb"s, apparently not.
20:19 nothingmuch woobling is my domain, not my identity
20:19 theorbtwo With 6,456,598 accounts, the flat namespace can be a bit annoying at times.
20:20 gaal oh, consider how kings in shakespeare's english were named by their domains.
20:20 gaal e.g. in Hamlet, "I am to England"
20:20 nothingmuch =P
20:20 PerlJam has joined #perl6
20:20 nothingmuch i'll go with 'nuffinmuch', i guess
20:20 gaal (meaning the English king, though obviously he also boarded a ship to England)
20:20 theorbtwo Not just kings.  Consider also Romeo and Juliet's parents.
20:20 gaal true!
20:20 gaal fathers, actually.
20:20 theorbtwo Er, right.
20:21 gaal well, ruling-parent-male-by-default.
20:21 nothingmuch MORE MORE MORE!
20:22 gaal more anal discussion of elizebethan language? okay.
20:22 DapperDan has joined #perl6
20:22 nothingmuch no
20:22 gaal did you know that "thee" and "thou" weren't high language at all in S's time?
20:22 nothingmuch rss feeds =)
20:22 gaal ah :)
20:22 nothingmuch beh
20:23 nothingmuch http://openfoundry.org/Foundry/Pr​oject/Source/index.html/pugs/rss/ <-- XML::RAI::Item->identifier != consistent!
20:23 nothingmuch it changes every time, appearantly
20:23 gaal http://www.ucomics.com/calvinandhobbes/
20:24 nothingmuch gaal: i have all the books, and i know most by heart =)
20:24 theorbtwo Oh!  And watchyamacallit-bot should be fixed to use description instead of title.
20:26 * nothingmuch switches to $item->link
20:27 gaal http://www.hackaday.com/ is sometimes cute
20:27 gaal http://www.kimbly.com/blog/ is interesting
20:28 theorbtwo Commercialized comics don't have a RSS feed on the page, generally, but indy ones sometimes do, and if you look a bit, you can find RSS feeds of things that don't have them pretty easily.
20:29 theorbtwo Also, try checking people's friends pages, and stealing any feeds they have that you find interesting.
20:29 theorbtwo http://livejournal.com/users/<username>/friends/
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20:49 nothingmuch uGGG!!!
20:49 nothingmuch asshole
20:49 nothingmuch my ride forgot me at work!
20:49 nothingmuch damnit!
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20:51 gaal has left
20:53 ingy nothingmuch: yow!
20:53 nothingmuch indeed
20:54 nothingmuch especially with it being 23:00
20:54 theorbtwo Ugh.
20:54 theorbtwo How far are you?
20:54 ingy work all night!
20:54 nothingmuch to home?
20:54 DapperDan has quit IRC ()
20:54 nothingmuch 20 minute drive
20:54 nothingmuch ingy: they wish
20:54 ingy Perl6 needs you!
20:54 nothingmuch i haven't been working for the last 2 hours anyway
20:54 nothingmuch at home, at home...
20:55 ingy you can crash at my place
20:55 nothingmuch guess whose taking a vacation tomorrow?
20:55 theorbtwo And how long of a walk?
20:55 lightstep nothingmuch, where do you work? 20 minutes is a long distance at this hour
20:55 nothingmuch theorbtwo: 20 km, approx
20:56 nothingmuch but rough terrain
20:56 theorbtwo Oh.  Sounds not-fun.
20:56 nothingmuch lightstep: omer industrial park
20:56 nothingmuch nuh uh
20:57 nothingmuch damnit, now none of the cab drivers are answering!
20:57 nothingmuch this means i might not get a refund, if i go by unofficial means
20:59 nothingmuch phew
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21:03 nothingmuch ingy: YAML quickie:
21:03 nothingmuch --- #YAML:1.0
21:03 nothingmuch ? |-
21:03 nothingmuch  http://abridgegame.org/cgi-​bin/darcs.cgi/darcs/?c=rss
21:03 nothingmuch :
21:03 nothingmuch  ? ! >-
21:03 nothingmuch    http://abridgegame.org/cgi-bin/darcs.cgi/da​rcs/?c=annotate&amp;p=20041026122610-20bb4-​a7494211822eebe3cb331cb449e9ad12ce8c106f.gz
21:03 nothingmuch err, nopaste
21:03 nothingmuch (sorry)
21:04 nothingmuch anywho, what are the silly ? | - and ? ! > - stuff?
21:04 nothingmuch compare with:
21:04 nothingmuch http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/data/rss:
21:04 nothingmuch  http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/152214.html: 1
21:04 ingy nothingmuch: paste it in the pugs wiki and I will explain
21:05 ingy nothingmuch: but basically they are silly artifacts of an inplemantation that needs fixing
21:06 nothingmuch ah
21:06 ingy the yaml is legal but highly annoying
21:07 nothingmuch http://pugs.kwiki.org/?YuvalKogman
21:07 lightstep does svn commit also update the local mirror?
21:08 nothingmuch lightstep: what do you mean by local mirror?
21:09 * nothingmuch chose YAML for that file since it's, err, sometimes human readable
21:09 nothingmuch bad ingy! for not being perfect!
21:10 nothingmuch btw, how is the .4 branch coming along?
21:10 ingy .4?
21:10 nothingmuch there's YAML .3x
21:11 nothingmuch and .4x
21:11 nothingmuch oh, there's been an update to .3x
21:11 nothingmuch goody
21:11 nothingmuch how does it eat overloaded objects now?
21:11 ingy mmm. I forget
21:11 ingy try it
21:11 ingy it really needs to go both ways
21:12 nothingmuch no time now, cab here soon
21:12 ingy and really on a per object basis if desired
21:12 ingy ta
21:12 ingy expect a perl6 yaml soon!
21:12 ingy in haskell
21:12 nothingmuch heh
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21:50 lightstep what is the best syntax for :l at the prompt?
21:51 theorbtwo Just replace the :l with a 'require ', and eval.
21:52 theorbtwo ...because later it should get changed to "use", which has a wider syntax.
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21:52 lightstep not semantics, syntax
21:52 lightstep :l works now
21:52 theorbtwo Oh.  :l whitespace module name EOL.
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21:53 lightstep module name can contain whitespace?
21:53 lightstep (right now it's required to be a valid haskell string)
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21:54 theorbtwo No.
21:54 theorbtwo Don't think so, leastways.
21:55 mugwump using ::($expr) you should be able to make any package name at all
21:55 mugwump see S10
21:56 theorbtwo I'm not sure it's smart to try to make :L do everything under the sun.
21:56 mugwump Packages with embedded "::"'s are hard to refer to :)
21:56 theorbtwo For that matter, the real parser doesn't even handle Foo::Bar from the look of it.
21:57 mugwump maybe something like ::{"::"} will refer to the top level package called "::"
21:57 theorbtwo ruleRequireDeclaration in Parser.hs suggests it should be identifer `sepBy1` string "::"
21:58 theorbtwo Then concat (intersperse "/" names) ++ ".pm"
21:58 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:58 mugwump Yeah, if specified directly.  I'm just mentioning a silly corner case :)
21:59 theorbtwo .oO(OK, it will allow Foo::Bar, as I read more.)
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23:23 pasteling "artol" at 66.93.197.227 pasted "subroutine bug" (26 lines, 628B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8222
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