Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 * gaal calls it a day
00:00 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:00 nothingmuch eek, server misconfig, i have to make it unforbidden
00:00 nothingmuch good night, gaal!
00:00 gaal bye people!
00:00 theorbtwo For that matter, jcwren wouldn't mind giving whomeever an acocunt, I bed.
00:00 theorbtwo bet.
00:00 jabbot pugs - 821 - TODOs for .bytes, .codes, .graphs
00:00 theorbtwo Later, gaal!
00:00 gaal bye :)
00:00 gaal has left
00:00 PerlJam Why would whomeever need an acocunt?
00:00 lumimies has joined #perl6
00:01 PerlJam and what's an acocunt anyway?
00:01 PerlJam and who is whomeever?
00:01 PerlJam :-P
00:01 Limbic_Region everyone knows James can't speel
00:01 nothingmuch PerlJam: err, to store files
00:01 nothingmuch or run pugs
00:02 nothingmuch or send spam
00:02 lightstep pugs isn't installed
00:02 lightstep but ghc6.2 is
00:03 nothingmuch i never made install pugs
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00:03 nothingmuch it's svn in my homedir
00:03 nothingmuch but i usually run it on syeeda, my laptop
00:03 nothingmuch or safta, a very strong box at work
00:04 lightstep do i have web access too?
00:06 nothingmuch lightstep: working on it
00:06 nothingmuch my webserver is a bit not configured for that
00:07 lightstep cool
00:08 nothingmuch ok, screw it
00:08 nothingmuch i'm copying my vhost setting
00:08 nothingmuch you are now lighstep.woobling.org
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00:10 lightstep err, but i don't control the web page
00:10 lightstep i made up a little index.html
00:10 lightstep and still the default (?) page shows
00:10 * nothingmuch is still trying to figure out what's going on
00:11 nothingmuch ah
00:11 nothingmuch didn't name it .conf
00:11 nothingmuch there
00:11 nothingmuch http://lightstep.woobling.org
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00:12 nothingmuch anywho, i'm off now
00:12 nothingmuch work tomorrow
00:12 theorbtwo Night, nm.
00:13 nothingmuch good night, theorbtwo
00:13 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - you sleep while Jess is at work?
00:14 nothingmuch lightstep: if you have any trouble with the account either message me here, or [email@hidden.address] foobargorch on aim, or email me: [email@hidden.address]
00:14 nothingmuch and i will fix it first thing tomorrow morning
00:14 lightstep ok
00:14 nothingmuch *poof*
00:15 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=440205 # Pugs problem with PREFIX=
00:15 theorbtwo Often, yes.
00:15 theorbtwo Really, I just let my sleep schedule do what it wants.
00:16 Limbic_Region must be nice - my body would much prefer to be awake/asleep for irregular intervals
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00:18 lightstep good night all
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00:19 Limbic_Region TTFN lightstep
00:22 theorbtwo Mine probably would too, if it got irregular exercise.
00:22 theorbtwo As it is, not so much does it get any.
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01:10 jabbot pugs - 822 - Kwid spec review and refactor.
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01:40 Schwern Hey, are Pugs tests expected to fail when you pull straight from the repo?
01:40 stevan Schwern: yes
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01:40 ingy :)
01:41 ingy Schwern: yes, between releases
01:41 stevan Schwern: they decided that if something is broken it should fail
01:41 Schwern http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/2055
01:41 stevan + what ingy said
01:41 ingy dev is fast and furious here
01:41 stevan Schwern: looks normal :)
01:41 Schwern Well, I don't know whats expected and what's not there.
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01:42 Alias_ Schwern!
01:42 Schwern That's-a-me
01:47 ingy Schwern: your Kwid dream is finally coming to fruition (join #kwid)
01:47 ingy (The whole thing was originally Schwern's idea :P)
01:48 Schwern That's right.  Blame it on me
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02:00 jabbot pugs - 823 - adding tests for invocant syntax $foo.de
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02:10 jabbot pugs - 824 - some more work on perl6-ing File::Spec,
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02:46 chiaoi s
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02:47 chiaoi .login
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04:20 jabbot pugs - 825 - More AUTHORS updates.  lightstep, please
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04:52 Darren_Duncan Does anyone know why http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/?Queue=270 says that the latest release is 6.0.9 when 6.0.11 was released after moving back to that server?
04:52 lumimies has joined #perl6
04:58 Khisanth it's also the only available version for download from there ... maybe it's related :)
05:00 obra Darren_Duncan: likely because it just hasn't been updated
05:00 Schwern Eeek!
05:00 obra I'll see if I can fix
05:00 Schwern Installing /System/Library/Perl6/Test.pm
05:00 Schwern Unlinking /System/Library/Perl/5.8.1/Test.pm (shadowing?)
05:00 Darren_Duncan so that updating doesn't happen automatically?
05:01 obra dunno
05:01 Schwern DO NOT RUN "make install UNINST=1"!
05:01 Alias_ Darren_Duncan++ # Nice job on the Alg::Dep port by the way
05:01 Alias_ Any comments on problems or issues you had in the process?
05:01 Darren_Duncan I noticed that a few people have started editing Alg::Dep after me ...
05:01 Darren_Duncan I have a question ...
05:01 Darren_Duncan What's with this move to self-less?
05:02 Darren_Duncan I thought explicitly having the $self makes for more readable code
05:02 Schwern Why write $self.foo when .foo means the same thing?
05:02 Schwern And .foo doesn't mean anything else
05:02 Alias_ newbie friendlyness?
05:02 Schwern Not having to write $self a thousand times?
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05:02 Darren_Duncan Doesn't .foo operate on whatever $_ currently is?
05:02 Alias_ It was already written :)
05:02 Darren_Duncan and that isn't always the object?
05:03 Alias_ no, .foo operates on the method's object
05:03 Schwern $_ isn't always the object but tends to be in short methods
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05:03 Darren_Duncan so if you're inside a loop where $_ is not the object, then .foo will still operate on the object?
05:03 Alias_ wot..., so .foo isn't really "operates on the object"?
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05:04 Schwern Alias:  According to Synopsis 12 .foo is $_.foo
05:04 Schwern Dot notation can omit the invocant if it's in $_:
05:04 Schwern    .doit(1,2,3)
05:04 Darren_Duncan and $_ isn't always the object, is it?
05:04 Darren_Duncan in map {} its the list item
05:04 Alias_ Which means that I should always use $self still, to avoid gotchas
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05:05 Darren_Duncan that's why I do it
05:05 Darren_Duncan part of the reason
05:05 Alias_ I had assumed .foo was implicitly $self.foo
05:05 Schwern DD:  As with $_ now, .foo is useful for short blocks and methods.
05:05 Alias_ I swear I saw that in a damian talk
05:05 Darren_Duncan I only use .foo in extremely simple contexts, if at all
05:05 Schwern Alias:  Maybe they changed it since S12 since that certainly seems less dangerous
05:05 Darren_Duncan such as one-liner methods
05:06 Alias_ I almost never use $_, except in ^^^ as well
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05:06 Darren_Duncan In any event, I want LKT to stick with the explicit objects
05:06 Schwern LKT?
05:06 Alias_ locate::...
05:06 Darren_Duncan Locale::KeyedText
05:06 Alias_ sorry, miskey, that
05:07 Darren_Duncan I almost never use $_; mainly I just use it in map or grep
05:07 Schwern If .foo == $self.foo and not $_.foo then I don't see why one would bother
05:07 Darren_Duncan where it has to be used
05:07 Schwern Writing $self out over and over again that is
05:07 Darren_Duncan that's an IF
05:08 obra Darren_Duncan have a look at foundry again?
05:08 Darren_Duncan but if the latter is true, then watch out!
05:08 Alias_ if .foo == self.foo, that's fine
05:08 Schwern Hopefully sanity will reign
05:09 Alias_ If .foo == self.foo some_of_the_time_but_only_when_$__is_$self_which_it_is_by_default_at_the_top_of_methods_but_not_in_loops, then I'm not happy
05:09 Darren_Duncan Ingy, Foundry looks good
05:09 Darren_Duncan I meant obra
05:09 Schwern Alias:  That would be more concisely expressed as .foo == $_.foo
05:09 obra heh. first time I've been confused for ingy!
05:09 Alias_ Dot notation can omit the invocant if it's in C<$_>:
05:09 Alias_    .doit(1,2,3)
05:10 Alias_ darn
05:10 Alias_ The in that case, we have to explicitly use self.
05:10 Alias_ Then
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05:10 jabbot pugs - 826 -  r8059@kybristedi:  gugod | 2005-02-07 2
05:11 Schwern Alias:  Sure but that's 4 months old
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05:12 Alias_ I hope so
05:12 Darren_Duncan For sanity, I like to avoid using $_ where at all possible; the only exception is in tight loops like map and grep, where I seem to have no choice anyway
05:12 Alias_ I seems counter intuitive that $.something is a property, but .method isn't a method
05:12 Darren_Duncan so what if I have to type a few more characters
05:12 Darren_Duncan maintainability is worth it
05:12 Alias_ It
05:12 Alias_ I concur
05:13 Darren_Duncan Now, Autrijus *started* the self-less thing, so lets perhaps get his opinion, then maybe revert the removal of self
05:14 Alias_ or talk to p6l :)
05:14 ayrnieu "Because if we aren't careful, we'll become Python."
05:15 Alias_ I for one would rather have .foo as a method call and be forced to do $_.foo
05:15 Darren_Duncan so who volunteers to talk to p6l?
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05:16 Darren_Duncan Perl 6 allows us to change its own syntax to an extent ... I wonder if we can do the Python thing of requiring whitespace in the right measure?
05:16 Darren_Duncan not that I care for that, but it could be so evil its fun
05:17 obra  Ac1;2cme modules in perl6 are going to be _fun_
05:17 Alias_ Especially if it's in ;-first form
05:17 Darren_Duncan obra, what does that expand to?
05:18 Darren_Duncan you mean Acme modules?
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05:18 Darren_Duncan guess so
05:18 Alias_ Darren: What's with the $foo.meta.isa(bar)
05:18 Alias_ Darren: Would $foo ~~ bar suffice?
05:18 Darren_Duncan see the end of S12
05:19 obra er. Acme modules.
05:19 Darren_Duncan it replaces UNIVERSAL::isa($foo,'bar')
05:19 Darren_Duncan .meta gives you access to the meta-class of an object, off which you can introspect ...
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05:19 Darren_Duncan get things like class name, method list, etc
05:20 Darren_Duncan unlike in Perl 5, everything in Perl 6 is an object, so it is valid to call .meta.isa on it with any kind of value
05:20 Alias_ so just plain $foo.isa doesn't mean anything any more?
05:20 Darren_Duncan no runtime errors of 'not a reference'
05:20 Darren_Duncan it might as a short hand, but the .meta is the better documenting way to do it
05:20 Alias_ oh, so although everything is an object, $foo.isa still isn't the way to do is safely
05:21 Darren_Duncan I don't know if foo.isa will work; it might, see the end of A12
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05:21 Darren_Duncan still, use a method call in any event, no more UNIVERSAL
05:21 Alias_ alternatively, is seems like the smart $foo ~~ bar should work just fine
05:21 Alias_ ~~ == "Do what I mean isa()"
05:22 Darren_Duncan The ~~ would presumably operate on the stringification of $foo
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05:22 Darren_Duncan ~~ is what =~ was
05:22 Alias_ "The smartmatch:
05:22 Alias_    $obj ~~ Dog
05:22 Alias_ actually calls:
05:22 Alias_    $obj.meta.does(Dog)
05:22 Alias_ "
05:22 Alias_ Or is it not any more
05:22 Darren_Duncan Isn't the new =~ the smartmatch?
05:22 Darren_Duncan See the top of ... S3 I think ...
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05:26 pasteling "dvergin" at 209.166.89.145 pasted "Latest trunk still doesn't build on WinXP with ghc 6.4" (36 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8272
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05:49 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: Which $self.method calls were being shortened?
05:50 Darren_Duncan The ones in Attributes::Dependency
05:50 Darren_Duncan All 5 modules
05:50 Darren_Duncan As I recall, Autrijus started the change, and Steven finished
05:50 Darren_Duncan checking ...
05:51 Alias_ yes, looks like it
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05:51 Alias_ so... self is $_ inless you explicitly say something different?
05:51 Darren_Duncan I meant Algorithm::Dependency, and authors checks out
05:51 Darren_Duncan I should be able to reverse it with a quick s// if the group agrees
05:52 Darren_Duncan doing that rather than a revert will preserve any other changes made, if any
05:53 Darren_Duncan The current object is named whatever you specify in the start of you method signiture like $foo:
05:53 Darren_Duncan $self is a convention
05:53 Alias_ Also, just so you know, the reason for the uppercasing of variables is a clue to remind me that it is an object of the same ...::Type as the name
05:53 Alias_ So $Item is used for a single ...::Item object
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05:53 Darren_Duncan just to clarify, are you the original AlGol author?
05:53 Alias_ alg::dep? yes
05:54 Darren_Duncan alg::dep, ok
05:54 Darren_Duncan Well, its your module then, your way or the highway
05:54 Alias_ I don't mind, it's an experiment
05:54 Darren_Duncan just as LKT is mine
05:54 obra has autrijus explained his thinking yet?
05:54 Alias_ But I noticed you did an explicit commit to fix it (and other bits)
05:54 Darren_Duncan of course, I will do my best to put forward good design ideas and hope people follow them
05:55 Darren_Duncan I leave mixed case for the actual class/module names, not variable names
05:55 Alias_ fair enough...
05:55 Darren_Duncan the name of the variable should give an idea what class it is an object of
05:55 Darren_Duncan without resorting to special case
05:56 Darren_Duncan In my case, I name my $self either $message or $translator or $container or $node as appropriate
05:56 Alias_ That gets harder in very large class trees with many similar names
05:56 Darren_Duncan decide whats best on a case by case basis
05:56 Darren_Duncan Those are internal names in any event
05:57 Darren_Duncan external code can name the message or tran or whatever objects something else
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05:57 Darren_Duncan This is partly about self-similarity
05:57 Darren_Duncan within the module definitions themselves, I have consistently used the topic object named something like the class name
05:58 Darren_Duncan if a method deals with multiple objects, those that are not the self have longer names
05:58 Alias_ Looking at autrijus' diff, it would seem that $_ is used as the $self name if ( $self: ) is not explicitly specified
05:58 Darren_Duncan eg, in SQL::Routine, that has a tree of nodes ...
05:58 Darren_Duncan The "current" Node is $node, its parent may be $pp_node, a child $child_node, etc
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05:59 Alias_ ah
05:59 Darren_Duncan in that situation, every variable that is a Node object is named $..._node
05:59 Darren_Duncan all lowercase
05:59 Alias_ I stick to the "the current object is always $self" principle
05:59 Darren_Duncan that convention is also followed by outside code using my module
05:59 Darren_Duncan but an explicit $self is still very understandable
06:00 Darren_Duncan one reason I didn't use that internally with my abovementioned modules is that each module defines a pair of related objects, and I wanted to use the same names for each type of object in methods of both objects
06:00 Darren_Duncan personal choice
06:01 Darren_Duncan the only thing I really advocate for others is to explicitly name your topical object or variable in most cases
06:01 Alias_ topical?
06:01 Alias_ meaning self?
06:02 Darren_Duncan The word 'topic' means what Perl 6's understanding of $_ is, according to Larry.
06:02 Darren_Duncan $_ is an alias to whatever the current topic of the statement is.
06:02 Darren_Duncan or rather topic of the current block
06:02 Alias_ (not liking that Perl6 has caught jargonism far worse than even Java has)
06:03 Alias_ oh, and also
06:03 Alias_ +method schedule_all () {
06:03 Alias_ +$.schedule( $.source.items.map:{ .id() } );
06:03 Alias_ }
06:03 Alias_ That's from autrijus' change
06:03 Darren_Duncan topic != self always
06:03 Alias_ which I presume means that $_ is localised now
06:03 Darren_Duncan The content of $_ depends on the context.
06:04 Darren_Duncan It's a little more predictable than in Perl 5
06:04 Darren_Duncan Not sure if a Synopsis talks about it, but an Apocalypse/whatchamacallit did
06:04 Darren_Duncan A syn should talk about it, since its important to know
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06:05 Darren_Duncan Maybe its in S4 or thereabouts
06:08 arcady $_ is lexically scoped
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06:09 arcady so things like "for" and "given" have their own, private $_
06:09 Darren_Duncan yes
06:09 Darren_Duncan that was/is their most common use of $_, I think
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06:10 Alias_ So we at least fix the "scope leakage" problem, with $_ changing underneath you
06:10 arcady exactly
06:11 Alias_ Of course, now we've got the all new "thinko" where $self is $_ by default
06:11 Alias_ So all the newbies will be doing it that way
06:11 Alias_ And then wondering what's wrong when foreach { .execute($_) } doesn't act quite right
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06:12 Alias_ It feels kind of backwards
06:12 Darren_Duncan that maybe one reason for example code such as in Pugs to default to something with fewer surprises ...
06:12 Darren_Duncan for all the newbies that look at it to learn from
06:13 Darren_Duncan vetarans should be setting good examples in their public code
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06:13 Alias_ But we are going to end up a bit backwards here I think
06:13 Khisanth or ... it's still not too late to change perl6 :)
06:13 Alias_ The "normal" way to do a method (path of least resistance) is using $_
06:14 Alias_ So people will do a lot of it
06:14 Alias_ And then have problems with foreach @params { .something($_) }
06:14 Darren_Duncan except when it won't work and people won't know whyu
06:14 Alias_ Which means they have to go to foreach @params -> $p { .something($p) } or method name($self: ...) { }
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06:15 Alias_ And both ways are equally correct
06:15 Darren_Duncan oh yeah, $_ is also the exception object in an exception handler now
06:15 Alias_ And yet you can't maintain universal consistency with case by case situations like that
06:15 Alias_ So you have to ideally do BOTH
06:15 Alias_ Which means it gets even wordier
06:15 Alias_ and more sigilly
06:15 Darren_Duncan Well, Perl's maintaining its policy of giving people enough rope to hang themselves
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06:16 Alias_ There's giving them rope, and then there's tieing it around their neck for them, and giving them a gentle shove
06:16 Darren_Duncan someone had an ACCIDENT!
06:17 Alias_ oopsi! TMTOWTDI, buy another perl book!
06:18 Darren_Duncan Well, I'm going to make a style policy for any projects that I control such that use of $_ is forbidden
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06:18 Darren_Duncan but everyone else can still do it as they wish
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06:18 Alias_ I'll probably end up the same way
06:19 Alias_ It just sucks that the most compatible and standard way is going to be nastier than what the intended effect of the feature was in the first place
06:19 Darren_Duncan I would/do have the same policy with Perl 5 code
06:20 Darren_Duncan just as strongly as "always use strict, warnings" in Perl 5
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06:22 Alias_ (not warnings for me)
06:22 Alias_ I find one innocuous case can fill up the server logs badly
06:22 Alias_ warnings forced on for all unit testing though
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06:27 Darren_Duncan how hard is it to make code that never generates warnings except when something's wrong?
06:28 Darren_Duncan if something fills up a log, that says to me "fix some code"
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06:28 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: After the production servers chucks a fit :)
06:28 Darren_Duncan my first question?
06:28 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:29 Alias_ It also can hide more significant errors :)
06:29 Alias_ Occasional "only used once" type warnings do slip in from time to time
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06:29 Darren_Duncan what is bad about keeping warnings on
06:29 Darren_Duncan ?
06:29 Alias_ just a personal preference
06:29 Darren_Duncan using warnings should help you find more significant errors sooner
06:30 Alias_ That's why they are always on in devel and testing
06:30 Alias_ just not on production
06:30 Darren_Duncan if your code doesn't generate warnings, leaving it on in production doesn't hurt
06:30 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:30 Alias_ unless the useless warning is somewhere the test cases missed
06:31 Darren_Duncan the idea is to fix the code until use warnings doesn't generate any warnings
06:31 Darren_Duncan then the test cases aren't very good
06:31 Alias_ correct
06:31 Alias_ It's very expensive to get to 100% coverage in 100,000 SLOC of perl
06:31 Alias_ impractically and prohibatively so
06:31 Darren_Duncan meanwhile, leaving warnings on all the time will tell you exactly which lines need to be fixed ...
06:32 Darren_Duncan check the logs occasionally, as you fix, the logs get shorter
06:32 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
06:32 Alias_ and also hide potentially more important problems
06:32 autrijus gree...tings.
06:32 Darren_Duncan how would warnings hide problems?
06:32 Darren_Duncan if you fix them the wrong way?
06:32 Alias_ a quarter of a million 15 line useless warnings, hiding 15 serious problems that are lots more important
06:33 Alias_ It's happened before
06:33 Darren_Duncan oh, you mean the logs are buried?
06:33 Alias_ yes
06:33 autrijus just a quick word re: selfless
06:33 Darren_Duncan a simple grep on the log would fix that
06:33 Darren_Duncan yes, autrijus
06:34 Darren_Duncan grep out the warnings to see the errors
06:34 Southen has joined #perl6
06:34 autrijus I think $.foo and @.bar is uncontroversial
06:34 autrijus and I'd like to use them instead of silly hash deref or $self.accessor
06:34 Darren_Duncan what's wrong with $self.attribute?
06:34 Alias_ It's a design problem
06:35 autrijus Darren_Duncan: four more keystrokes :)
06:35 Alias_ Way too much collision between $_ as $self and $_ as traditional
06:35 autrijus plus, it doesn't disambiguate.
06:35 Darren_Duncan since .foo refers to $_, and $_ is only sometimes equal to $self, one can get into a lot of problems with .foo everywhere
06:35 autrijus oh, right, method calls
06:35 autrijus I agree. I think it should only be used on blocks with <3 lines of text.
06:35 Darren_Duncan I don't like $_, too easy to mess things up, especially by newbies
06:36 Darren_Duncan the extra few characters don't bother me
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06:36 Darren_Duncan maintainability is more important
06:36 autrijus I begain thinking .method already means the invocant
06:36 autrijus but then I'm wrote
06:36 autrijus but then I'm wrong
06:36 Alias_ Given the amount of comments I normally write, the four keystrokes for "self" is irrelevant
06:36 Schwern Yeah, I'm wondering why they've crippled .foo
06:36 autrijus so I'm happy to revert back to $self.method
06:36 Darren_Duncan I'm okay with .foo in really short methods, like 1-3 lines, but not with those where $_ can ever change meaning
06:36 cognominal has joined #perl6
06:36 Schwern Oh, probably for things like switch
06:36 Darren_Duncan let's do it then
06:36 autrijus Darren_Duncan: yeah. but $.member really disambiguates a lot things for me
06:37 Alias_ I really liked .foo as a consistent invocant method shortcut
06:37 Alias_ $_.foo would have been quite clear and readable
06:37 Alias_ (for the times in map { } etc )
06:37 autrijus neither $self->{member} or $self->member_lvalue made sense for me in perl5
06:37 autrijus especially because it exposes the hash nature
06:37 Darren_Duncan The only time I use $_ or .foo is in map or grep , and now in where{}
06:37 autrijus and in any case, $.member has nothing to do with $_.
06:38 Alias_ that's the thing
06:38 Alias_ $.member has nothing to do with $_, but .method does
06:38 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:38 Darren_Duncan where in the spec does it say that?
06:38 Alias_ It's counterintuitive, if I'm understanding right
06:39 autrijus http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S12.html
06:39 Darren_Duncan Is it or is it not true that .foo is always on $_?
06:39 Darren_Duncan Dot notation can omit the invocant if it's in $_
06:39 Darren_Duncan see the "if in $_"
06:39 Schwern Well, keep in mind $_ is no longer global
06:40 Schwern Its lexical
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06:40 autrijus Darren_Duncan: but $.member is not .member
06:40 Darren_Duncan $_ changes by context
06:40 Alias_ Schwern: That's not the problem... it's a code style consistency issue
06:40 Schwern DD:  Right, but it changes back. :)
06:40 Darren_Duncan so .member is not always .member
06:40 autrijus I agree, as specced, what I did on .member is wrong
06:40 Alias_ the inconsistency of usage for .foo causes problems
06:40 autrijus and needs to be reverted back
06:40 Schwern Alias:  But it does make $_.method less dangerous to use
06:40 autrijus you can do that, or I will do it tonight
06:40 Schwern DD:  But its much more clear when its not
06:40 autrijus but I think keeping $.member hurts no one.
06:40 Darren_Duncan I find it is most clear to type the extra 4 characters
06:41 Schwern Just injecting that.  $_ isn't nearly as wild in Perl6 as it was in Perl5.
06:41 autrijus the sigil-full variant doesn't change its meaning in map{}
06:41 Schwern DD:  I find it rapidly gets annoying and redundant
06:41 Darren_Duncan At least $_ is easier to predict in Perl 6
06:41 autrijus ... map { $.foo } ...
06:41 autrijus still means the member variable.
06:41 autrijus instead of $_.foo
06:41 Alias_ autrijus: right. That's the problem :(
06:41 Schwern Isn't $.foo something else?
06:41 Schwern ...an atribute?
06:41 Alias_ autrijus, $.member means one thing, but .method (which my mind sees as the same sort of thing) doesn't
06:41 Schwern Oh crap, they didn't use slots?
06:42 autrijus Alias_: yes and I see the problem
06:42 autrijus Alias_: I think it sucks,.
06:42 Darren_Duncan okay, looking in S12 ...
06:42 Alias_ I'd much rather force people to use $_.method
06:42 Alias_ much much much rather
06:42 autrijus but the $.foo is not the sucky one.
06:42 Darren_Duncan putting the sigil in front means we're not dealing with $_
06:42 Schwern Ugg, why did they make $.foo and $self.foo different?
06:42 autrijus .method is.
06:42 autrijus Schwern: because.
06:42 Darren_Duncan however, we use $.member only for public attrs ...
06:43 autrijus Schwern: because $.foo is a scalar var
06:43 Darren_Duncan we use $:member for private ones, which is probably the normal type
06:43 autrijus Schwern: and .foo is a method call on a scalar var.
06:43 autrijus yes.
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06:43 autrijus but I don't think we need to write accessors anymore.
06:43 autrijus writing accessors in p6 is... confusing
06:43 Darren_Duncan in any event $[.|:]member is only for attrs, not for methods, I think
06:43 autrijus because we have private / public attrs anyway.
06:43 Alias_ I guess this stuff is the sort of thing pugs was meant to find out so they could fix
06:43 autrijus sure.
06:44 autrijus Alias_: yes.
06:44 Darren_Duncan yes, make Pugs have a reason to exist@
06:44 Darren_Duncan !
06:44 Alias_ Because if $:foo, $.foo, .foo is confusing for US, imagine how bad it's going to be for lesser mortals
06:44 autrijus so, I need to run. let's first use the style of   $self.method, $:priv, $.pub   for now
06:44 gaal morning, all. lovely day.
06:44 autrijus if that's okay with you folks
06:45 Alias_ that will suffice
06:45 autrijus (all in the context of AlDep)
06:45 Darren_Duncan Fine with me autrijus, though I will personally still use $self
06:45 Darren_Duncan all the time
06:45 Alias_ At least something very positive has come out of AlDep, rather than just being a normal port :)
06:45 autrijus Darren_Duncan: sure, that is fine. timtowtdi
06:46 autrijus Alias++
06:46 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
06:46 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:46 Darren_Duncan Autrijus++
06:46 autrijus have fun! &
06:46 Darren_Duncan hey, someone had to
06:46 Darren_Duncan who wants to update AlDep?
06:47 Schwern autrijus:  There shouldn't be any difference between a method call on an object which returns a scalar and accessing a scalar which is part of the object.  That's the whole point of data hiding.
06:47 Schwern autrijus:  You're back to $self->{foo} and $self->foo
06:47 Schwern Though $.foo is at least class-scoped.
06:47 Schwern Ahh, right.
06:47 Schwern You can't get at $.foo outside the class... I hope.
06:48 Darren_Duncan You can
06:48 Schwern Don't say that.
06:48 Alias_ but you can't get at $:foo
06:48 Darren_Duncan That is, an attr declared with $.foo is visible outside
06:48 Schwern Oh, public attributes.  MISTAKE
06:48 Darren_Duncan I always use private attributes
06:48 Alias_ is $.foo accesed by $object.foo?
06:48 Darren_Duncan yes
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06:48 Schwern Public attributes and public methods should be indistinguishable
06:49 Darren_Duncan here's a brief story on my Aldep conversion ...
06:49 Darren_Duncan I found that the AlDep test suite did some direct accessing of object attributes
06:49 Alias_ Darren_Duncan, then that C< method source () {...} >  should probably be a read-only public attribute
06:49 Darren_Duncan Alias, why?
06:49 Alias_ force of habit...
06:50 Darren_Duncan bad habit
06:50 autrijus wait wait
06:50 autrijus The attribute variables may be used within instance methods to refer directly to the attribute values. Outside the instance methods, the only access to attributes is through the accessors.
06:50 Darren_Duncan Anyway, I added an accessor method for it, which didn't exist
06:50 Alias_ having the test script do a little peering inside the black box help when the underlying logic is a bit tricky
06:50 autrijus the only thing that differntiates $. and $:
06:50 autrijus is that an accessor _method_ is generated for $.foo
06:50 autrijus outside users still _has_ to use the method form
06:50 Darren_Duncan yes
06:50 Darren_Duncan and a good thing too
06:51 Darren_Duncan that said ...
06:51 autrijus so from the user's POV, no encapsuation is violated
06:51 Darren_Duncan if one can invoke a method without parens, it looks the same
06:51 autrijus (that was re Schwern)
06:51 Alias_ so... C< has $:source is ro; >?
06:51 Alias_ rather than the manual method source?
06:51 autrijus & :)
06:51 Schwern autrijus:  Oh good.  Sanity is restored.
06:51 Darren_Duncan I made a style choice of always using parens on method invocations, so its easy to tell its a method call
06:52 Schwern Don't you always have to use parens on method calls?
06:52 Schwern Are we talking Perl 5 or 6 here?
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06:52 Darren_Duncan not sure, but I do anyway
06:52 Darren_Duncan I do it in both
06:52 Darren_Duncan mandatory, not sure
06:52 Alias_ Schwern: I wouldn't think so
06:52 Alias_ is you has $.foo; you shouldn't have to $object.foo()
06:53 Darren_Duncan AlDep invoked tons of methods without parens ... I fixed that
06:53 Alias_ remembering that $object.foo is using an implicit accessor method
06:53 Schwern Alias:  Oh, I thought with arguments.
06:53 Schwern So we're talking Perl 6 not 5?
06:53 Alias_ Well, they don't need to in perl 5 _or_ perl 6
06:53 Schwern They do in 5
06:53 Alias_ what waht?
06:53 Alias_ Then all my code shouldn't work
06:54 Darren_Duncan I include parens both with and without args, in both 5 and 6, since its easy to read
06:54 Schwern Alias:  *with args*
06:54 Alias_ oh, with args, of course
06:54 Schwern Alias:  $obj->foo is fine but $obj->foo 42 is not
06:54 Alias_ Because you can't do the magical prototype-based parsing
06:54 Schwern DD:  Isn't it kinda obvious from the ->bareword?
06:54 Schwern Alias:  No, prototypeless functions don't need parens.
06:54 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:54 Darren_Duncan That said, I always used to use parens with 'return' , but recently stopped
06:55 Darren_Duncan since return is built-in and low precedence
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06:55 Schwern Alias:  Honestly I don't know why you need parens around method calls
06:55 Alias_ Schwern: It's a parser thing
06:55 Schwern Alias:  Sure, but is it a language thing?
06:55 Schwern How could it be ambiguous?
06:55 Alias_ It's a limitation of... information
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06:56 Schwern What information is missing?
06:56 Alias_ The prototype
06:56 Alias_ explicit or implicit
06:56 Schwern Again, prototypeless subroutines don't need parens.
06:56 Alias_ It's in section 1 of my PPI talk :)
06:56 lumimies has joined #perl6
06:56 Schwern Why should method calls?
06:56 Alias_ Because they are done at run time
06:57 Schwern But the prototype is always going to be @
06:57 Schwern Where's the ambiguity?
06:57 Alias_ Randal can probably explain in better terminology than I can
06:58 Darren_Duncan defer to an expert you say?
06:58 Alias_ My use of terminology is out of sync with the older perlers
06:58 Schwern Defer to a professional trainer. :)
06:58 Alias_ I tend to think in symbolic terms... (not to mention the ADD)
06:59 Alias_ I'm better in person, when I can adapt the explaination
06:59 lumimies has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
06:59 Schwern I know what you mean
07:00 lumimies has joined #perl6
07:01 hcchien gugod++  #outline2html/outline2html.p6
07:01 Darren_Duncan still, for text based internet stuff, IRC is the closest to in person you can get
07:01 Alias_ (so I tend to give up textual explainations that don't have immediate success) :)
07:01 Schwern DD:  Comic chat
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07:05 cnhackTNT is now known as cnhackTNT|work
07:07 * Alias_ follows up to Schwern's p6l email
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07:08 Alias_ Also, is .:method legal?
07:09 Alias_ sub method () { .:method };    in some cases would seem to be legal and in others not
07:09 Alias_ depending on the "type" of $_
07:11 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: In your explicit method() policy, do you do () as well for things like %hash.keys()
07:11 Alias_ ?
07:11 Darren_Duncan let me check ...
07:12 Darren_Duncan no
07:12 Alias_ how do you differentiate?
07:12 Darren_Duncan my use of parens is mainly with user-defined methods, when thee are no args
07:12 Darren_Duncan there are few enough built-ins that it is easy to recognize them and not use parens ...
07:13 Darren_Duncan eg, with sort, keys, values, pairs, kv, etc
07:13 Darren_Duncan I don't always treat built-ins and user-defined things the same way
07:14 Darren_Duncan with user-defined stuff, there is a much greater volume, so extra hints like parens are used to make it easier to understand them at a glance
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07:15 Alias_ fair enough
07:15 Alias_ I tend to go for cleanliness lately, to make scanning easier
07:15 Darren_Duncan I like consistency
07:15 Darren_Duncan cleanliness is also good, though cleanliness doesn't always mean terse
07:16 Alias_ true, but I find the removal of non-word characters cleaner
07:16 Darren_Duncan as long as you are SELF-CONSISTENT that is the most important thing
07:16 Darren_Duncan rule #1
07:16 Alias_ consistent with style guide, yes
07:16 Alias_ in my case http://ali.as/devel/code.html
07:17 Darren_Duncan I mean, if everything you as a person writes has a consistent style with everything else you write, that's the most important thing
07:17 Darren_Duncan I mean you = a person
07:17 Alias_ indeed, and equally across a team of developers, if you can keep the egos in check
07:17 Darren_Duncan If you are consistent with what other people write, that is a secondary concern, a good thing, but less important
07:17 Alias_ :)
07:17 Darren_Duncan If you are in a formal team, the whole team should be consistent
07:18 Darren_Duncan In an informal group like ourselves, its a good idea but a bit less critical
07:18 Darren_Duncan still, if we can all agree ...
07:18 Darren_Duncan its better for all of us
07:18 Alias_ I think we can all agree .foo is ick :)
07:19 Darren_Duncan if not agree entirely, agree to a certain subset of styles
07:19 Darren_Duncan yes
07:19 Alias_ It's going to get worse for .:foo
07:19 Alias_ (oh wait, do we need to use the :)
07:20 Darren_Duncan I don't like emoticons - pet peeve
07:20 Darren_Duncan that one may have been accidental
07:20 Darren_Duncan you said '... to use the <smiley>'
07:21 Darren_Duncan wait ...
07:21 Alias_ that was an accident
07:21 Darren_Duncan I just found a preference on my IRC client to turn smilies off ... display plain text only ... that fixed everything
07:21 Alias_ Do we need to use the : in private method calls?
07:22 Darren_Duncan I think we only really need the : in declarations of private methods and attrs and ...
07:22 Darren_Duncan use of it in calling only seems to be used when using $:foo or $.foo
07:22 Darren_Duncan notation
07:24 Alias_ That could get a little icky, if .foo is "method" and not "public method" with a corrosponding :foo "private method"
07:25 Alias_ Well, if not icky, then at least assymetrica
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07:30 Darren_Duncan is 'public' and 'private' a keyword in Perl, or are you just quoting a concept?
07:30 Darren_Duncan I assume Perl won't let you declare a .foo and a :foo in the same class
07:30 jabbot pugs - 827 - fix small Locale::KeyedText bug in get_*
07:31 Darren_Duncan Is jabbot a person or a robot?
07:31 Darren_Duncan It wasn't operating the other day
07:31 Darren_Duncan 'bot I guess
07:32 Darren_Duncan but a cron job, considering I committed several minutes before it posted
07:34 Darren_Duncan I'm going to sign off shortly ... any last questions?
07:34 alexe has joined #perl6
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07:43 ingy hola
07:44 Darren_Duncan I just went and sent a donation to the developer of Colloquy, the IRC client I've been using for the last week and that works great ... support free software you appreciate!
07:44 ingy sb end
07:45 Darren_Duncan that's in lieu of code
07:45 Darren_Duncan here, I give code and time
07:45 lightste1 good morning
07:45 Darren_Duncan same to you
07:45 lightste1 is now known as lightstep
07:45 Darren_Duncan I'm about to leave for bed, actually
07:45 lightstep ping autrijus
07:45 Alias_ public in the sense that $.foo is a public attribute and $:foo is a private attribute
07:45 Darren_Duncan Autrijus was here a half hour ago
07:46 Darren_Duncan or make that an hour ago
07:46 Darren_Duncan Alias, I lost the train, what were you getting at now?
07:47 b6s has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:47 Darren_Duncan nevermind, I'm outtahere
07:47 Darren_Duncan has left
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07:48 ingy autrijus: is the win32 build still hosed?
07:49 Alias_ "a $=foo variable is a POD variable"
07:49 Alias_ it's a WHATTTT
07:49 gaal ingy: works for me, though tests dont' run at all
07:49 autrijus greetings.
07:50 gaal ..and i need to #undef PUGS_HAVE_POSIX
07:50 ingy gaal: then it doesn't work :(
07:50 gaal autrijus: did you see the goto parsefail?
07:51 Alias_ Do attributes declarations look like C<  has $:foo is ClassType; > or C< has ClassType $:foo; >
07:51 Alias_ It's the latter isn't it?
07:52 ingy autrijus: I'm making decent progress on the Kwid processing... btw are you aware of #kwid?
07:57 gaal autrijus: what i said the other day about $::($foo) being superceeded was bogus, i misread the spec. it's still in.
07:58 autrijus yup.
07:58 autrijus and there's still a test.
07:59 autrijus Alias_: the latter
07:59 Alias_ thought so
07:59 Alias_ fixing AlgDep now
07:59 Alias_ Darren was using has $foo is Class
08:00 autrijus ingy: cool! yes I am aware of #kwid. not having a lot of time to participate tho
08:00 autrijus gaal: !. so on win32 it doesn't undef HAVE_POSIX?
08:00 autrijus gaal: yes I've seen the parsefail. @ work now tho, so will be a few hours before I can tackle it
08:00 jabbot pugs - 828 - fix bug in <<>> quoting test
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08:02 gaal autrijust: not on mingw anyway.
08:02 gaal autrijus: sure thing
08:02 * gaal needs more ACK the weirder the thing he finds
08:03 autrijus hcchien: where is outline2html.p6?
08:04 autrijus gaal: what is $^O of your win32?
08:04 autrijus perl -e "die $^O"
08:04 hcchien autrijus: svn.elixus.org/member/gugod/
08:04 gaal autrijus, msys
08:05 gaal oh! could it be that MSys != MinGW installs? i dont remmber which i installed first.
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08:06 autrijus lightstep: I'm here now.
08:06 autrijus gaal: commit a fix for me?
08:06 gaal sure.
08:06 autrijus Makefile.PL line 112ish, match msys and mingw there.
08:07 gaal autrijus++; # remembers the code, with *line numbers*
08:07 lightstep i'm still on the yesterday thingy
08:07 autrijus thunking?
08:07 lightstep having problems with the environment
08:07 lightstep yes
08:07 autrijus I had not downloaded your s3kr1t file :)
08:07 lightstep better not
08:07 lightstep i have a better version now :)
08:08 autrijus cool. does it break everything, or just := ?
08:08 autrijus if the latter, you can simply commit it :)
08:08 lightstep everything, i think :)
08:08 autrijus oh no :)
08:08 lightstep `say' got rebroken today
08:09 autrijus my &foo := { return };
08:09 autrijus I am very very unsure what it does.
08:09 autrijus does it essentially make a continuation?
08:09 autrijus does the thunk made by := capture the dynamic scope as well?
08:09 autrijus or just the pads?
08:10 autrijus if just the pads,
08:10 autrijus my $foo := $?CALLER::POS; # this will break, no?
08:10 autrijus $?CALLER::POSITION, even
08:10 * autrijus ponders a p6l inquiry
08:10 jabbot pugs - 829 - Replace C< has $.var is Class; > with C<
08:11 autrijus Darren++ # successfully pulled invoked a Rule 2
08:11 gaal r830 win32 build fix
08:12 autrijus danke
08:12 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
08:12 Darren_Duncan ping _Alias
08:13 Darren_Duncan I mean Alias_
08:13 Alias_ yes
08:13 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I was just ++'ing you for successfully invoking a rule 2 from larry
08:13 gaal autrijus: why doesn't cygwin work? ("it's complicated; not now" is a valid answer)
08:14 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, I'll lookup what you're referring to in a moment
08:14 autrijus gaal: cygwin doesn't build GHC. allowing cygwin has led perl to attempt to build ghc in the past.
08:14 Darren_Duncan In regards to Alias_ question ...
08:14 autrijus which leads to prolonged pain.
08:14 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: I didn't get your intentions wrong in that p6l email did I?
08:14 Darren_Duncan both forms can be used, but they have subtly different meanings
08:14 autrijus because cygwin actually _builds_ GHC it's just very very difficult.
08:15 gaal yes, i noticed building ghc without having ghc is Hard.
08:15 Darren_Duncan With scalar attributes, it may not make a difference
08:15 Darren_Duncan With array or hash data types, it does
08:15 masak does anyone have a URL or a short explanation to what a "thunk" really is?
08:15 masak i've seen the term pop up lately, and i fear that its importance exceeds my knowledge of it.
08:15 Darren_Duncan saying 'has Classtype @foo' says that each element of @foo is a ClassType
08:15 gaal but if i do have an msi ghc, why shoundn't i be able to use cygwin? that's what i do with mingw.
08:15 Darren_Duncan saying 'has @foo is ClassType' says that the entire array is a ClassType
08:16 Darren_Duncan That's how I used it in Locale::KeyedText
08:16 Darren_Duncan I may have botched something in AlGol, though
08:16 autrijus gaal: well GHC msi _is_ built with mingw.
08:16 gaal aha :))
08:16 Darren_Duncan Alias_, got that?
08:16 autrijus and mingw ABI ne cygwin ABI.
08:16 Alias_ yep
08:16 gaal yes, i see now.
08:17 gaal okay, it's long and painful. i'll get back to symbol tables :)
08:17 Darren_Duncan now checking on Autrijus' comment ...
08:18 gaal if i do a symbolic lookup of a var (either global or lexical) that hasn't been declared, what should happen?
08:18 autrijus Darren_Duncan: "Re: return of copies vs references"
08:18 autrijus gaal: with the symtable hash or with the ::() syntax?
08:18 autrijus I expect it to fail with ::(). I think.
08:18 gaal ::()
08:18 autrijus symtable hash should just return undef.
08:19 autrijus but my expectation may be completely offbase.
08:19 gaal is the symtable hash read-only?
08:19 autrijus of course not!
08:19 Darren_Duncan I expected you were talking about p6l, but I hadn't read my email until after I answered Alias_
08:19 autrijus you can write it, tie it, wrap it and kill it
08:19 autrijus that's the fun part of perl
08:19 gaal so manual export can work like in p5
08:20 gaal so, what's the motivation for ::() syntax?
08:20 jabbot pugs - 830 - win32 build fix: $^O eq msys
08:20 gaal i better ask on p5-lang
08:21 gaal p6-lang
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08:21 masak what's a thunk?
08:22 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, without looking it up, does "rule 2" say that Larry can change his mind?
08:23 masak according to http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/T/thunk.html it is the result of an operation... is this applicable to pugs?
08:23 Schwern And another thing.  Why do we need different syntax for private vs public method calls?
08:25 Schwern Ahh, optimization hack
08:25 Schwern Hrm.
08:25 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, can I assume that "successfully invoking a rule 2 from larry" is Blog-worthy?
08:25 larsen has joined #perl6
08:26 Alias_ Let me guess. Rule 1: Larry is always right. Rule 2: Larry can change his mind at will, see Rule 1.
08:26 Alias_ or something like that?
08:26 Darren_Duncan I thought so
08:26 Schwern Larry is always right even when he's wrong.
08:26 Darren_Duncan Anyway, based on Larry's answers, I'm about to commit another LKT bug fix update, to use the new syntax Larry specified ...
08:26 Schwern You might sometimes see reference to Rule 1 and Rule 2. Larry's power as Supreme Court is expressed in The Rules:
08:26 Schwern   1.
08:26 Schwern      Larry is always by definition right about how Perl should behave. This means he has final veto power on the core functionality.
08:26 Schwern   2.
08:26 Schwern      Larry is allowed to change his mind about any matter at a later date, regardless of whether he previously invoked Rule 1.
08:26 larsen has quit IRC (Client Quit)
08:27 lightstep autrijus, i gotta go learn towards a test. can i send you an email with my attempts so far?
08:27 larsen has joined #perl6
08:27 Darren_Duncan benevolent dictatorship is fun!
08:27 Schwern Rule 1:  Larry is always right.  Rule 2:  ...Even when he is wrong.
08:27 Schwern See perlhack
08:27 lightstep autrijus, (otherwise, the code is where i said earlier)
08:28 Darren_Duncan Thanks for the perlhack ref
08:28 masak could someone explain to me (or give a pointer to information about) what a "thunk" is?
08:28 mugwump =closure
08:28 lightstep a thunk is a value that refers to yet-unevaluated closure
08:29 masak ah, thx
08:33 autrijus lightstep: yup. go ahead
08:33 lightstep what's the address?
08:33 Schwern Ahhh.  Remember Rindolf?  http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/rindolf/rindolf-spec/book1.html
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08:41 Darren_Duncan Thanks for the Rindolf link - bookmarked it - I never heard of that project before
08:41 Schwern Its not a project, its just a spec.
08:41 Schwern Someone else is supposed to implement it.
08:42 Darren_Duncan I'm not sure I agree with his thought that CPAN programmers won't want to port to perl 6
08:42 Darren_Duncan sure, some will
08:42 xuzq has joined #perl6
08:42 Darren_Duncan but I expect a large number will make the move
08:42 Schwern I'll let you in on a little bit of backstory.  Rindolf is a bit of a joke.
08:42 Schwern Except to the author.
08:42 Darren_Duncan ok
08:42 Darren_Duncan so its like the product of an insane mind?
08:43 Darren_Duncan anyway ...
08:43 Schwern Yes.  It might have been interesting as a thought experiment (like Perl5i) if he didn't keep insisting its a replacement for Perl 6.
08:44 tomyan was it written before or after the apocalypses?
08:44 tomyan hard to imagine someone coming up with that after reading apocalyse 5 (or any other one for that matter)
08:44 Schwern Good question.
08:44 Schwern He was still pushing it as of last October.
08:45 rgs shlomi !
08:45 Alias_ That said, I do like this idea
08:45 Darren_Duncan well, let him try ... something good may still come of it
08:46 Schwern As we all know the following is a common paradigm in Perl:
08:46 Schwern my $var = eval { my $sum = $b+$c; return $sum*$sum; };
08:46 Schwern http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rindolf-discuss/message/76
08:46 Schwern DD:  No... I really doubt it.
08:46 rgs I flipped the bozo bit on shlomi some time ago. And only due to his posts on p5p.
08:47 rgs He's also reportings bugs against mandrake's bugzilla.
08:47 Darren_Duncan heck, some people may think *I'm* insane for attempting some of the stuff I'm doing on cpan, like considering a replacement for DBI
08:47 rgs I have co-workers who never touch anything perl and who have the same opinion about M. Fish.
08:47 rgs Darren_Duncan: do you actually write code ?
08:48 Darren_Duncan yes
08:48 rgs that's a big difference
08:48 Schwern See, that's the difference.
08:48 Darren_Duncan I write lots of code, but it could also be called over-designed
08:48 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: Dude, we ALL have a replacement for DBI
08:48 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: Well... a replacement for Class::DBI at least :)
08:48 crysflame heh
08:48 rgs even tim bunce has
08:49 crysflame or at least a wrapper
08:49 Alias_ But then I consider Class::DBI a replacement for my version
08:49 Darren_Duncan how about something that does what DBI does, and better, and doesn't need DBI under the hood to power it?
08:49 Alias_ "doesn't need DBI"?
08:49 Alias_ You write your own database drivers?
08:49 Darren_Duncan I say 'better' feature and portability wise, not speed wise
08:49 Darren_Duncan DBI is still faster
08:49 Darren_Duncan eventually
08:50 Alias_ oh wait, you are doing one of the SQL modelling modules arn't you
08:50 Darren_Duncan the more accurate statement is that someone could make a driver for my architecture that implements itself using DBI, but they don't HAVE to
08:50 Darren_Duncan in fact, my initial releases will use DBI under the hood, but nothing in the architecture requires that to happen
08:51 * crysflame implements Alias as a large shell script.
08:51 b6s has joined #perl6
08:51 * Alias_ reimplements himself
08:51 Darren_Duncan partly for that reason, like with DBI itself, my drivers are distributed separately from the core
08:51 Alias_ DBI doesn't really deal with the databases themselves very much though
08:51 Darren_Duncan Alias_ , yes
08:51 Alias_ They largely restrict themselves to connection handling and housekeeping
08:52 Alias_ Although not so much lately
08:52 Alias_ Rosetta! That's the one
08:52 Darren_Duncan yes, DBI is mainly connection handling and SQL string passthru
08:52 Darren_Duncan Its schtick is that you can do that exactly the same way with any database engine
08:52 Darren_Duncan which is good
08:52 Alias_ yes
08:53 Alias_ It would have been nice if it limited itself to that part
08:53 Darren_Duncan mine does that too but also lets you use identical SQL with all databases, and yet access advanced features of databases that have them, or to a point, emulate those on others, in an efficient manner
08:53 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: Sounds very familiar to parts of my system, except I inline it all at codegen built time
08:54 Darren_Duncan actually, mine doesn't do SQL passthru ... except through a "circumvention" feature
08:54 Darren_Duncan 'circumvention' is not recommended for use, but lets you do esoteric things that you simply must do that my attempt at 90%+ native feature coverage doesn't do
08:55 Darren_Duncan Anyway, SQL::Routine, which defines the main spec for this project, is now considered "alpha" development status, so it is more or less feature complete
08:56 Darren_Duncan ... for major version 1
08:56 Alias_ I have to say so, SQL::Routine scared the hell out of me the first time I saw the POD :)
08:56 Darren_Duncan ... as of v0.46
08:56 Darren_Duncan Well, I did say over-designed
08:56 Darren_Duncan also, ignore the current SYNOPSIS
08:57 Alias_ if ( $something->valid_node_type_surrogate_id_attributes ) { ... }{
08:57 Darren_Duncan I will rewrite it to something nice
08:57 Alias_ phew... yeah
08:57 Alias_ I read "trivial example"... HALWRALSLASLALLLAGLGAHALHGLGA
08:57 Darren_Duncan you are referring to an information function, which is used for in-code introspection of features
08:57 Darren_Duncan most features don't have information functions
08:57 Alias_ I meant more the size of the method name :)
08:58 Darren_Duncan I mean for the method names to be descriptive
08:58 Alias_ I know
08:58 Darren_Duncan I could shorten them based on user feedback
08:58 Alias_ I was extremely impressed with the thoroughness, if a little worried about the efficiency of development using it
08:59 Darren_Duncan See code examples in the Abstract.pm test suite file, which most closely resembles actual SQL
08:59 Alias_ ok, I will
08:59 Darren_Duncan the module is multi-layered
08:59 Alias_ On that note, I need to head home
08:59 Alias_ Another time
08:59 Darren_Duncan right-o
08:59 Darren_Duncan wait for v0.46, due any day now
08:59 * Alias_ &
08:59 Alias_ I will
08:59 Alias_ Will you be at OSCON?
08:59 Darren_Duncan I want to be
08:59 Darren_Duncan I live near by incidentally, but never went before
09:00 Alias_ I'll be bringing over some demos of my phase-n.com stuff
09:00 Darren_Duncan I'm in Victoria, BC, probably a few hours drive from Oregon
09:00 Alias_ You'd probably find it quite interesting
09:00 joshcryer has joined #perl6
09:00 Alias_ (I'm in .au)
09:00 Darren_Duncan I'll try to carpool
09:00 Alias_ night
09:00 * Alias_ &
09:00 Darren_Duncan yep
09:01 * gaal needs gloss for '&'
09:01 Darren_Duncan what you mean?
09:01 gaal is that like the wisp of vapor left when someone vanishes?
09:01 gaal what does '&' mean?
09:01 Darren_Duncan no, what you need gloss for?
09:01 joshcryer has left
09:01 Darren_Duncan I know that '&' means 'and'
09:02 Darren_Duncan unless it means something else here
09:02 gaal no, like when Alias_ said "/me &"
09:02 Darren_Duncan gaal, where are you located?
09:02 gaal Tel-Aviv
09:03 Darren_Duncan I see
09:03 Darren_Duncan do you know Nothingmuch?
09:03 gaal sure!
09:03 Darren_Duncan you two are the only ones I know that are in that area
09:04 gaal there are a couple more here. lumi, lightstep
09:04 Schwern has quit IRC ("Leaving")
09:04 gaal i don't think i met lightstep though.
09:04 Darren_Duncan I see
09:04 Darren_Duncan not sure I'll remember all that
09:05 Darren_Duncan in any event, each of you should, if your real names are not spelled in latin letters, spell them out in the AUTHORS file using the native script, as Yuval did
09:05 Darren_Duncan that can help give a clue later
09:05 gaal give a clue to what?
09:05 Darren_Duncan I just mean, a reminder of where you're from
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09:06 Darren_Duncan if you want to
09:06 gaal i do the majority of my writing in English, so i'll pass.
09:06 gaal but maybe people who want to can include a URL to a personal homepage?
09:06 Darren_Duncan just thought you might be interested, at least 10 other names in AUTHORS aren't in latin script
09:07 * gaal nods
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09:07 gaal but English is my main language for anything other than speech
09:07 elmex gaal: good morning, still here?
09:07 Darren_Duncan but that homepage idea sounds interesting
09:07 gaal hey elmex, i did sleep a bit in between :)
09:08 elmex me too
09:08 elmex just got up... wonderin where to get access to quickly upload that test
09:08 Darren_Duncan its very early in the morning here, 1:08am to be specific
09:08 gaal debian users: apt-get install tzwatch
09:10 gaal maybe we need to adapt this: http://desert-island.dynodns.net/perl/pmplanet.html
09:12 Darren_Duncan that might be interesting
09:12 gaal anyone here comfortable with quoting ops? if this is valid syntax........
09:12 gaal my $foobar = 'Foo::Bar';
09:12 gaal $::($foobar);
09:12 gaal does this mean exactly the same?
09:12 gaal $::<<$foobar>>
09:13 autrijus well, the first is () syntax
09:13 gaal or do i need to say $::(<<$foobar>>) ?
09:13 autrijus I imagine it to be same as %::<<$foobar>>
09:13 autrijus i.e. symtable lookup
09:13 gaal hi autrijus :)
09:13 autrijus hi gaal.
09:14 autrijus $::<<foo>>  is $::.{'foo'}
09:14 autrijus which I imagine is something else entirely
09:14 gaal so is $::(<<$foobar>>) valid (symref)?
09:15 autrijus you'll have to ask larry. I _think_ so.
09:15 elmex i would like to load up a test for a syntax-parsing problem, how/where to get accesss ?
09:15 autrijus your email?
09:15 gaal asked, but he's sane and thus asleep. i imagine :)
09:15 elmex autrijus: [email@hidden.address]
09:15 autrijus yeah he's moonlighting for $real_work :-)
09:15 gaal lol
09:15 * autrijus is in $real_work now.
09:16 autrijus elmex: invitation sent; welcome aboard!
09:16 elmex thanks!
09:16 gaal elmex: welcome! is it the goto minimal parsefail?
09:16 elmex gaal: yes ;) ("&s.g");""
09:16 gaal cool
09:17 autrijus blame luqui ;)
09:17 autrijus (but I'll fix)
09:18 elmex lol, term of use agreement are in japanese/chinese?!
09:18 xuzq has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
09:18 autrijus # http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html
09:18 autrijus sf.net boiler plate.
09:18 gaal it says scw and autrijus get to split your cash
09:18 autrijus riiight.
09:19 * gaal .retea;
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09:23 gaal so - since this still feels weird - can i typically say <$something> when in p5 i'd say '$something'? is it considered good style even when there's only one word to quote?
09:24 autrijus well. will you do that in p5?
09:24 autrijus qw<$something>
09:24 autrijus if you would use qw in p5, you can do it in p6
09:24 autrijus they are stylistically similar
09:25 gaal i said it in p5 in use qw() lines.
09:25 gaal but nowhere else, come to think od it.
09:26 autrijus well then.
09:26 elmex gaal: what do i need to complete the test besides proper use v6; require Test; and the pass ('ok'); at the end?
09:26 gaal guess i'll use q//
09:27 gaal plan?
09:27 elmex k, what plan should i do? 1/2/3/4?
09:27 gaal the one that when the bug gets fixed, will give no error.
09:27 elmex hm... what does plan mean btw.?
09:28 gaal it's the programmers's promise to run a certain number of tests
09:28 elmex ah, ok
09:29 alexe has left
09:29 gaal if a different number has run -- eg yout parsefail -- then the harness knows the test failed (even if possilby it only saw tests that passed until it died)
09:31 elmex hmm... wondering how to name that bug...
09:31 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, regarding that terms of use document that now I can actually read ...
09:31 Darren_Duncan I have a question about item 6 ...
09:32 mattc has joined #perl6
09:33 Darren_Duncan Is that license asking for Open Foundary to be able to do something that the GPL forbids, such as including our code in a binary and not providing attached code to users?
09:33 Darren_Duncan It says it wants to be able to use it for anything, anywhere, which is fine, but I"m not sureits copyleft
09:35 ingy kwid_to_html passes first test!
09:36 ingy I think i will check this into pugs tree, and to cpan
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09:39 elmex hm, how do i make a checkout with a specific username with svn ? never used it
09:40 gaal i asked these same questions two days ago!
09:40 elmex lol
09:40 gaal elmex: just co anonymously. when you checkin, you will be asked to authenticate
09:40 elmex ok
09:41 gaal let me anticipate your next question: if your local login is different from the one on open foundry, that's okay too. just hit enter when it prompts for a password, and then it will ask you for anoher username.
09:41 elmex Password for 'root':
09:42 elmex lol
09:42 elmex k
09:42 gaal put this in http://pugs.kwiki.org/ perhaps?
09:42 gaal and Don't Use Root <tm> :)
09:42 autrijus Darren_Duncan: it is still subject to GPL.
09:42 elmex bah, i know what i do
09:42 autrijus note that any free software license gives "oyalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive right "
09:43 elmex gaal: irc doesn't run as root anyway
09:43 gaal elmex, well, i know what i do, too, which is why i don't use root :)
09:43 autrijus but is still licensed, and may be terminated if violated (which renders the license void, instead of revoking it)
09:43 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, thanks
09:43 autrijus so that paragraph is a no-op if you already use a free software license.
09:43 Darren_Duncan sounds good
09:44 autrijus sure. I fought for it :)
09:44 Darren_Duncan then the exact free software license I chose will be respected as is
09:44 elmex gaal: i see no advantages limiting myself to priviledges of a user on my workstations
09:44 autrijus aye.
09:44 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, are you saying that the terms of service were changed by your request?
09:44 Darren_Duncan or you run the server?
09:44 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I'm the person responsible for coding the openfoundry site up
09:45 Darren_Duncan ok
09:45 gaal associative chain: "that paragraph is a no-op" got me thinking about law as a formal system or a program, which got me thinking about Nomic, the game mentioned in Hofstadter,
09:45 autrijus so I'm not in the legal team, but they tend to consider my input :)
09:45 Darren_Duncan seems you've got a lot of projects on it too
09:45 autrijus yeah. it's one of my $real_works
09:45 gaal which got me thinking about Peter Suber, who invented it, who is a FOS advocate!
09:45 Darren_Duncan nice
09:46 autrijus ooh nomic
09:46 autrijus write a nomic game in perl6!
09:46 autrijus Perl6::Nomic::SymbolTable
09:46 gaal lol
09:46 gaal you get to introduce new sigils to the language!
09:46 Darren_Duncan so Autrijus, is invoking rule 2 a big deal and/or blog worthy?
09:47 gaal [off topic] my favorite philosophy paper: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/writing/rudeness.htm
09:47 gaal [it's by suber inventor of nomic]
09:47 autrijus Darren_Duncan: it is. :)
09:47 Darren_Duncan ok
09:48 Darren_Duncan That said, there's one point I'm not sure about in Larry's response ...
09:48 Darren_Duncan    return $self.:bar[];# in list context
09:48 pjcj has joined #perl6
09:48 Darren_Duncan is the 'list context' referring to the caller of the method?
09:48 autrijus yes.
09:48 Darren_Duncan and if I use that syntax, while the caller is in a scalar context, what happens
09:48 Darren_Duncan ?
09:49 autrijus a reference to it.
09:49 autrijus pretty sure about that.
09:50 dada has joined #perl6
09:50 dada hola
09:50 autrijus Darren_Duncan: you happy with my p6l suggestion re .meth?
09:50 autrijus "I think the proposal is for .method always mean $invocant.method
09:50 autrijus and make it illegal when there is no invocants in sight, mush as $.attr
09:50 autrijus would be illegal without an invocant.  To use $_.foo, write $_.foo.
09:50 autrijus "
09:50 jabbot pugs - 831 - Added a Test about a bug in handling exp
09:50 Darren_Duncan maybe the list suggestion is incomplete (Larry's for mine)
09:51 Darren_Duncan It says $self.:bar; returns a ref in all situations
09:51 Darren_Duncan I'll just operate as if the [] suffix always makes a copy, for now
09:51 Darren_Duncan in general, I updated every other attr ref to put the : in front as well, since that seems more correct now
09:52 autrijus okie.
09:52 autrijus it's nice how now such discussions are played out in a few day's time
09:52 Darren_Duncan about to commit ...
09:52 autrijus they use to take months on p6l and goes nowhere ;)
09:53 Darren_Duncan is there a concern that Larry's new development re my question won't make it into an official doc?
09:53 autrijus no, I'm sure it will. luqui is good about it
09:53 autrijus (i.e. fixing S*.pod)
09:53 Darren_Duncan good
09:53 autrijus will be even faster if we send diffs.
09:54 autrijus but it's okay either way, I think
09:54 Darren_Duncan nice when an official word you hear in email is reflected in the Synopsis
09:54 autrijus right. if you read
09:54 autrijus http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S03.html
09:54 autrijus it now says
09:54 autrijus Unary = reads lines from a filehandle or filename, or in general iterates an iterator.
09:54 autrijus which is not the case before pugs implemented it :)
09:55 elmex yaho..second checkin...
09:55 Darren_Duncan you're happy
09:55 autrijus elmex++
09:55 autrijus yup, deliriously so
09:57 Darren_Duncan commit done
09:58 Darren_Duncan it appears that my literal $foo in the checkin comment were replaced by empty strings; I guess my command line thought they were env vars?  (empty on web page)
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09:59 kungfuftr autrijus: latest svn checkout refuses to build... =0/
09:59 elmex kungfuftr: builds fine here
10:00 jabbot pugs - 834 -  r1271@longdrop:  samv | 2005-03-17 22:5
10:00 jabbot pugs - 833 - LKT - updated all attribute references f
10:00 jabbot pugs - 832 - Rewrote the string expression parsing te
10:01 autrijus kungfuftr: platform?
10:01 autrijus and error msg? nopaste?
10:03 Darren_Duncan I've decided to try building now too, and 'make' give warnings about unknown functions ... I'm still on ghc 6.2.2 ... does Pugs *require* 6.4 or is it just compatible with 6.4?
10:04 elmex i still have 6.2.2
10:04 cnhackTNT|work has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
10:04 kungfuftr autrijus: freebsd 4.11
10:04 Darren_Duncan a recent update mentioned upgrading to 6.4, so I wondered about it
10:04 b6s has joined #perl6
10:05 Darren_Duncan anyway, make finishes
10:05 kungfuftr autrijus: http://paste.husk.org/2811
10:05 elmex Darren_Duncan: do you mean: 'Warning: retaining unknown function `toUpperC' in output from C compiler' ?
10:06 Darren_Duncan yes, stuff like that
10:06 Darren_Duncan it never gave those warnings a few days ago
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10:07 Darren_Duncan My gcc is version 3.3, if that is relevant
10:07 elmex i have 3.3.5
10:08 autrijus kungfuftr: you don't have src/Unicode.c !?
10:08 hlafarge has joined #perl6
10:09 autrijus kungfuftr: how can that be? "svn up src" ?
10:10 Darren_Duncan 'make test' finally finished ... 16/1754 subtests failed
10:10 jabbot pugs - 835 - Perl5 version of Kwid tools.
10:14 kungfuftr autrijus: i have it
10:14 kungfuftr that's the weird thing
10:15 autrijus ok, try this.
10:15 marcusT has joined #perl6
10:15 autrijus svn up and make again
10:15 autrijus r837
10:16 kungfuftr yup... building now
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10:20 ingy autrijus: do you have windows?
10:20 * Juerd has windows. Three, even.
10:20 autrijus I am on win32
10:20 Juerd Oh, and mac++
10:20 jabbot pugs - 837 - * try fix hsc2hs
10:20 jabbot pugs - 836 - .
10:20 ingy no problems with nmake test right?
10:20 Juerd I'm already doing everything I did on my "old" home workstation
10:21 * Juerd is liking it.
10:22 ingy ok, zzzzzzzzzzz&
10:22 gaal what does "&" mean on irc?
10:22 gaal background, away?
10:23 steveq has joined #perl6
10:24 * Odin- never saw it until here.
10:24 Odin- But that seems the most likely explanation. :>
10:24 gaal good thing hacker here have a shell with job control!
10:25 gaal s/hacker/hackers/
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10:27 autrijus nmake is just fine here, yes
10:30 gaal sub answer { 42 }
10:30 gaal &::(answer);
10:30 gaal Does this invoke answer or give a ref?
10:30 gaal sorry, ("answer")
10:31 gaal or is it simply context dependent?
10:31 autrijus no, &:: never invoke
10:31 autrijus & is always just obj
10:31 gaal i need to append .() to invoke?
10:31 autrijus aye
10:32 gaal thanks
10:32 autrijus "functions are merely objects with only the 'apply' method"
10:32 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, I just got to catching up with p6l and have now read your $self.method thread ...
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10:32 Darren_Duncan you asked me a question connected with this ...
10:33 autrijus I asked whether you're happy with my post
10:33 autrijus about making .meth always be tied to invocant, and to write $_.foo, always write $_.foo
10:33 Darren_Duncan uh ... I guess that sounds fine
10:34 Darren_Duncan would that mean that .keys will have to be $_.keys if iterating over Pair objects?
10:34 autrijus yes.
10:34 Darren_Duncan still, I did that in Perl 5, so no change
10:34 autrijus yup.
10:34 autrijus basically I'd like to huffmanize better
10:35 autrijus $self.foo vs .bar
10:35 autrijus .foo vs $_.bar
10:35 autrijus clearly $_ is already shorter than $self
10:35 Juerd The original plan was that .bar always meant $_.bar
10:35 autrijus so it's a net win
10:35 Juerd And that $_ := $whateverinvocant by default
10:35 Juerd I like that approach very much.
10:35 autrijus Juerd: yeah and it breaks $.foo
10:35 Darren_Duncan do you want me to say something on p6l?
10:35 Juerd That's a variable.
10:35 autrijus which doesn't mean $_'s foo attr
10:36 Juerd No, but it's a variable, declared.
10:36 Juerd In scope even
10:36 Juerd And .foo isn't $.foo
10:36 autrijus method foo { say map { .process($_) } @list }
10:36 Juerd Just as foo isn't $foo
10:36 autrijus I want to be able to write that.
10:37 Juerd I want more to be able to write map { .<score> } @words
10:37 Juerd Now if we implement my idea of calling $OUTER::_ $__...
10:38 autrijus so we have different expectations. :)
10:38 Juerd Yes
10:38 autrijus I see .foo as method calls
10:38 Juerd Your problem exists with nested foo too
10:38 autrijus and in my mind method calls are connected to invocants
10:38 Juerd And the solution with nested foo can be used with methods: use a different name
10:38 autrijus not to $_ at all.
10:39 Juerd That limits you to objects of the same class
10:39 Juerd In my mind, methods are methods, but not necessarily on the current invocant.
10:39 malaire does &.foo mean anything these days? (could that be same as $this.foo, and so .foo could be $_.foo)
10:39 Juerd That's a good idea, malaire
10:39 autrijus malaire: it means an attr
10:39 autrijus has &.foo;
10:39 autrijus Juerd: wait. .<score> is hash deref.
10:39 Juerd I think &.foo is an attribute though
10:39 Juerd autrijus: Yes!
10:39 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, I can't think of anything disagreeable with your proposal ... its no worse than an alternative ... it will take me time to think if there's something better
10:39 autrijus I'm fine with dereffing use $_.
10:39 Juerd autrijus: But . is generic!
10:40 Juerd autrijus: Whoa - no, don't decide what the LHS is based on .'s method
10:40 Juerd .<> is a method, visually
10:40 autrijus not to me. when I see .[123];
10:40 autrijus I don't think invocants, I think $_
10:40 Juerd It's actually Hash::postcircumfix:{'<', '>'}
10:40 jabbot pugs - 838 - kwid_to_html passing two more tests
10:40 Juerd You think different things based on how prefix . is used
10:41 autrijus yes.
10:41 Juerd Take a step back and think of how confusing that'd be.
10:41 * autrijus takes a step back.
10:41 Juerd .foo is $self.foo
10:41 Juerd .<foo> is $_.<foo>
10:41 Juerd That's not very consistent
10:41 autrijus $.blah is $self.meta.attr('blah')
10:41 autrijus not $_.meta.attr('blah')
10:42 Juerd Especially if you consider that .foo :=: .<foo>, only through a different interface.
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10:42 Juerd And if you want something as short as 1 character, just define a $s invocant
10:42 Juerd method foo ($s:) { map { $s.foo(@_) }, @foo }
10:43 Juerd It takes declaring
10:43 Juerd But that's consistent over ALL nested-$_ problems
10:43 autrijus method foo { map { .foo($^x) } @foo }
10:43 Darren_Duncan well, I'm going to get off seeing as its 2:43 am here ... good luck with that .foo thing
10:43 autrijus that too.
10:43 autrijus since that way there's no $_ binding.
10:43 Juerd There would
10:43 autrijus right?
10:43 autrijus why?
10:43 Juerd The first argument of a closure is bound to $_
10:43 Juerd consistently.
10:43 Darren_Duncan has left
10:43 Juerd That is: the invocant
10:43 autrijus I don't see that.
10:44 autrijus the first invocant, yes.
10:44 autrijus the first argument, no.
10:44 Juerd or: the first placeholder
10:44 Juerd or: the first argument, in a for, for example
10:44 autrijus I don't think the signature in the map &foo is an invocant.
10:44 Juerd for @foo Y @bar -> $foo, $bar { $foo :=: $_ here }
10:44 autrijus I think it is a plain argument...
10:44 autrijus but correct me if I'm wrong.
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10:44 autrijus Juerd: sure sure but
10:45 autrijus for @blah { $^foo ... }
10:45 autrijus here $foo is not $_.
10:45 autrijus that's my reading of S06.
10:45 autrijus I may be completely wrong.
10:46 Juerd The current topic is always aliased to the special variable $_. The given block is just one way to set the current topic, but a switch statement can be any block that sets $_, including a for loop
10:46 Juerd S04
10:46 Juerd And IIRC, current topic is the first arg
10:46 autrijus it is the first inv not the first arg :-(
10:47 autrijus but all in all I find the inv/arg distinction very confusing.
10:47 Juerd in for @foo -> $_ { ... } there is no invocant
10:47 autrijus but you explicitly bind $_
10:47 autrijus which is fine.
10:47 Juerd Invocant is the first argument in methods
10:47 autrijus and even in
10:47 autrijus for @foo { ... }
10:47 Juerd Every invocant is an argument, not the other way around
10:47 autrijus the $_ is implicit, if it's used
10:47 autrijus so still fine.
10:47 autrijus Juerd: sure sure. but map {} ...
10:47 autrijus the block is not a method.
10:47 Juerd for @foo -> $nonunderscore { $underscore :=: $_ }
10:47 autrijus it is just a bare closure.
10:47 Juerd eh
10:48 Juerd for @foo -> $nonunderscore { $nonunderscore :=: $_ }
10:48 Juerd autrijus: Right, and non-methods do not have invocants.
10:48 autrijus what.
10:48 autrijus multisubs all have invocants
10:48 autrijus sometimes multiple such
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10:48 Juerd multisubs are very methodish
10:48 Juerd They can even be used with method syntax
10:48 autrijus ...
10:49 autrijus so ok.
10:49 autrijus I see that
10:49 autrijus for @foo -> $x { ... }
10:49 autrijus here $x is $_
10:49 autrijus because it is a ponty block
10:49 autrijus pointy block even
10:49 Juerd Because it's a closure with an argument.
10:49 autrijus and pointy block sets $_
10:49 Juerd Not because it's pointy, not because it's for
10:49 Aankhen`` Ponty block ponty block ponty block!!!
10:49 autrijus for @foo { $^x ... }
10:49 Juerd It's the closure that's consistent.
10:49 autrijus is $x here also $_ ? I am not so sure.
10:49 autrijus pugs currently does not do that.
10:49 Juerd $^x and yes
10:50 autrijus hrm.
10:50 Juerd Every block is a closure, and this behaviour attaches to closures, not to where they're used.
10:50 autrijus ok, then pugs may be wrong.
10:50 Juerd (All AFAIK)
10:50 Juerd IANALarry etc.
10:50 autrijus you mean IANTLarry
10:50 Juerd Larry is plural
10:51 Juerd :)
10:51 Juerd @Larry.
10:51 Juerd (i.e.: larry, damian, etc...)
10:51 Juerd Damian's a Larry, in this use :)
10:52 kungfuftr sophos++ # cancel contract due to blatant security holes in outsourced website
10:52 elmex_ just yesterday i read a synopses...and wondered about $_.method <=> .method and that it wasn't yet implemented in pugs...
10:53 autrijus nod... a test?
10:53 autrijus running home now. bbiab &
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11:04 nothingmuch morning
11:04 nothingmuch afternoon really
11:04 gaal heya!
11:04 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
11:05 * nothingmuch should stop saying morning when it isn't, and just use 'hi'
11:05 nothingmuch what's up?
11:09 tomyan is there a minimum version requirement for GHC?
11:09 nothingmuch 6.2, i think
11:10 ayrnieu tomyan - 6.2+
11:10 tomyan does it require unicode support compiled in?
11:10 gaal nuffin: i'm wokring on packages.t
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11:10 nothingmuch tomyan: with unicode support you get unicode support in pugs too. Without it you don't
11:10 ayrnieu even OpenBSD 3.6 ports have GHC 6.2+, so you're probably safe =)
11:10 tomyan was trying to track down prob that i described last night (Illegal instruction)
11:11 tomyan it was ok in r914
11:11 tomyan then 915-918 don't compile at all
11:11 tomyan then in r919 all execution has illegal instruction bug
11:11 tomyan doing a diff over those revisions, the main change seems to be unicode related
11:12 tomyan is most likely prob with ghc, but wanted to produce a simple test case before reporting it
11:12 tomyan background: is on sarge on sparc
11:15 nothingmuch tomyan: reading autrijus's journal, I see a comment about having done it in C
11:15 nothingmuch based on perl5's unicode handling
11:16 nothingmuch r919 is a svn.perl.org revision, right/
11:16 nothingmuch i think this means that unicode handling is now decoupled from GHC itself
11:19 gaal nuffin, got an example of how to compare two simlple hashes?
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11:19 tomyan yeah, i see that
11:20 nothingmuch gaal: stringification works
11:20 nothingmuch since the order is undef though
11:20 gaal is(~%h1, ~%2) doesn't work for me
11:20 gaal Fail: cannot cast into [VPair]: VRef (VList [VStr "1",VStr "2",VStr "3",VStr "4"])
11:21 gaal i meant %h2 up there
11:21 nothingmuch you should do it as ok(~%hash eq any(....))
11:21 nothingmuch but anything above 2 keys becomes a hassle
11:21 nothingmuch odd
11:21 nothingmuch if i get it right
11:21 nothingmuch then it's really an error about lazily constructing %h2, i guess
11:21 gaal ah, i may have done that wrong:
11:22 gaal our %h2 = <1 2 3 4>;
11:22 nothingmuch ah
11:22 gaal why isn't this correct?
11:22 nothingmuch try doing that as our %h2 = (<1 2 3 4>);
11:22 nothingmuch and add a test case for that
11:22 gaal no luck
11:23 nothingmuch since autrijus should know about it
11:23 nothingmuch ok then
11:23 nothingmuch our %h2 = ("1" => "2", "3" => "4");
11:23 gaal ah wait wait:
11:23 gaal i'm comparing it to something in an eval
11:23 nothingmuch $self->is_waiting
11:23 gaal which is failing so is evaling to undef
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11:24 gaal maybe is(undef, ~%h) causes the problem?
11:24 nothingmuch hmm
11:24 gaal undef is ultimately eq, right? is that always scalar context?
11:24 nothingmuch i don't think so
11:25 nothingmuch can i see the script?
11:25 nothingmuch i'd like to know a bit more
11:25 gaal changing it to ("1" => "2", "3" => "4"); worked.
11:26 nothingmuch it all sounds very fishy in the unimplemented sense
11:26 nothingmuch ok, so it's a bug in what <1 2 3 4> means in it's unnatural context
11:26 nothingmuch i would gladly make a test case out of your "bad" script
11:26 pasteling "gaa;" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "~ %h problem" (80 lines, 2.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8276
11:27 gaal line 24/25; the blow up is at 36.
11:29 * nothingmuch thinks up of a name
11:29 gaal just put it in hash.t, no?
11:30 nothingmuch i think
11:31 * gaal hates TODO tests which untodod would have been written is(xxxxxxx, undef)
11:31 nothingmuch huh?
11:31 gaal eval makes you need to write todo_ok(eval '!defined(xxxxxxx)')
11:32 gaal because if you naively do todo_is(eval 'xxxx', undef), it will pass
11:32 nothingmuch ah
11:32 nothingmuch so, err, reverse that
11:32 nothingmuch eval '!(xxxxx)', !undef
11:33 gaal heh
11:33 gaal nice.
11:33 nothingmuch add an todo_is($!, undef, ".. and it wasn't just the eval dying");
11:33 nothingmuch after each one
11:33 gaal that's harsh :(
11:33 nothingmuch which i think is actually a much nicer solution, in terms of what it checks
11:34 nothingmuch it's less elegant
11:34 gaal well, once the test starts passing, the eval should be removed.
11:34 nothingmuch maybe we should have an eval_is
11:34 nothingmuch and todo_eval_is
11:34 gaal it's only ther because it parsefails otherwise.
11:34 nothingmuch which str eval's it's first argument
11:34 nothingmuch and checks the second
11:34 nothingmuch and reports fail if $! is set
11:34 gaal reports todofail you mean.
11:34 nothingmuch hmm
11:35 nothingmuch well, reports todo fail if todo_eval_is
11:35 autrijus tomyan: I know
11:35 autrijus I was casting C int as haskell Char
11:35 tomyan yay
11:35 autrijus but other compilers seem happy enough
11:35 gaal i'd do it now but i have to leave soon. writing old style, and will refactor test later if someone writes the suport for it.
11:36 nothingmuch autrijus: i just discovered zip is lvaluable
11:36 nothingmuch gaal: i'll add eval_ok to Test.pm
11:36 tomyan i have ghc-cvs debian package installed, but I can't figure out how to make the install use it over ghc
11:36 gaal document it please because this is tricky
11:36 nothingmuch ok
11:36 gaal double negatives and stuff.
11:36 tomyan otherwise i would try it with that and see if it works
11:36 tomyan i mean the compilation, not install
11:37 autrijus tomyan: it's an abuse of c compiler thing
11:37 gaal nothingmuch: I'm going with ok(!defined(xxx)) for now.
11:37 autrijus will you be around in say 20min?
11:38 autrijus I can attempt a fix
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11:38 tomyan yep
11:38 tomyan thanks
11:38 nothingmuch gaal i'd leave it with is(foo, undef)
11:38 gaal ok, but that generates false passes.
11:39 nothingmuch hmm
11:39 nothingmuch well, i see your point
11:39 gaal which was the original problem.
11:39 nothingmuch i think yours is more elegant
11:39 nothingmuch but i'd do it as:
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11:39 nothingmuch ok(eval '!defined(xxx)')
11:39 gaal k really have to go soon, i prefer to commit now
11:39 nothingmuch so that it's only true if it's really defined, and not just a fatal error
11:39 gaal er yes, that's what i meant
11:39 gaal yes yes
11:39 nothingmuch okay
11:39 nothingmuch ciao then!
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11:50 gaal r841, see y'all in a few hours&
11:51 gaal has left
11:52 nothingmuch ciao gaal!
11:52 nothingmuch errm, too late
11:52 autrijus :)
11:52 nothingmuch ok, we have eval_is
11:52 nothingmuch now for eval_ok
11:53 autrijus wow. woot!
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11:58 nothingmuch ok everyone svn up
11:58 nothingmuch and convert your tests
12:00 nothingmuch mostly it's %s/todo_is(eval /todo_eval_is(/gc
12:02 nothingmuch oh, and most is(eval '', undef) changes to todo_eval_is, because undef return is different than failure
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12:29 autrijus tomyan: try the newest revision?
12:29 autrijus r844
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12:32 tomyan r966?
12:32 tomyan building now
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12:33 autrijus I have a feeling you're tracking svn.perl.org instead of svn.openfoundry.org
12:33 autrijus there will be a 1min delay but that's fine
12:34 tomyan oh i was wondering why the revision numbers on http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/Source/index.html/pugs/log/ weren't making sense to me
12:34 tomyan but now i know
12:34 autrijus because you're tracing the secondary mirror
12:35 kungfuftr autrijus: Unicode.hsc:29: Module `GHC.Unicode' does not export `ord' (also chr)
12:35 kungfuftr =0)
12:36 tomyan yeah me too
12:36 autrijus fixed I think. try again
12:37 kungfuftr yup, seems to be
12:37 kungfuftr hhhmmm... anyone got a smoke bot?
12:40 autrijus tomyan: so no segfault anymore?
12:41 tomyan is an slow old machine, still waiting for it to build
12:41 autrijus alright
12:41 * rjbs tries the latest on Win32.
12:43 tomyan died after Linking ...
12:43 tomyan with:
12:43 tomyan src/Unicode.o(.text+0xc8): In function `r1aq_entry':
12:43 tomyan : undefined reference to `isSpaceC'
12:43 tomyan 7 similar messages
12:43 pasteling "malaire" at 217.119.39.217 pasted "make failing on linux" (81 lines, 4.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8277
12:43 tomyan same as that
12:43 rjbs woop. fine on linux.
12:43 autrijus ok.
12:43 rjbs er. win32.
12:44 rjbs hey, did we get :r overnight?
12:44 autrijus ok, I attempted another fix.
12:44 autrijus need to run for dinner. will bbiab.
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12:47 malaire r846 works for me (on linux)
12:51 dada r846 builds fine on Win32, GHC 6.2.2
12:53 tomyan r846 still has illegal instruction prob for me (linux sparc)
12:54 tomyan sorry
12:55 tomyan going to get my lunch, but will check backlog to see if you need me to try again autrijus
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13:44 autrijus hi.
13:45 autrijus I kluged together some other fixes.
13:45 autrijus tomyan: can you try to hand tweak src/Unicode.hsc
13:45 autrijus #if mingw32_HOST_OS
13:45 autrijus make that branch always true
13:45 autrijus #if 1
13:45 autrijus or something
13:45 tomyan yeah no probs
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13:46 Limbic_Region autrijus - did you get the /msg I sent you (though problem has been worked around already)?
13:46 Limbic_Region any lambda folks about mind explaining a small piece of Haskell to me in english?
13:47 autrijus Limbic_Region: yeah. I don't known an easy solution to that.
13:47 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=440284 # I don't understand what it is doing so it is hard to write it in Perl
13:47 autrijus Limbic_Region: #haskell may help too
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13:49 autrijus Limbic_Region: browseruk has a translation
13:51 Limbic_Region autrijus - was hoping for english not code - but *shrug*, I guess I should just learn Haskell
13:51 autrijus Limbic_Region: right. Gentle Introduction or YAHT :)
13:52 Limbic_Region ok - I will just improve BrowserUk's version
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13:57 tomyan yep that works
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13:58 autrijus tomyan: ok. so it is most definietely my Unicode.c that is broken.
13:58 autrijus tomyan: do you have C-fu?
13:58 tomyan nope
13:58 autrijus I don't have any C fu outside XS
13:59 tomyan i have very little fu
13:59 tomyan just perl fu really
13:59 autrijus so we need to find somebody else.
13:59 autrijus what does solaris define? SOLARIS?
13:59 dvtoo sun for one
13:59 dvtoo one sec, I can get you the list out of gcc
13:59 tomyan dunno, but it is linux on sparc
13:59 autrijus oh ok. aw.
14:00 autrijus need to try get somebody versed in C to look at it
14:00 dvtoo it defines sun, unix, and sparc (on sparc)
14:01 dvtoo also __svr4__
14:04 theorbtwo autrijus, if Unicode.c is generated by script (and I'm guessing it was...) you should check it in.
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14:07 autrijus theorbtwo: it was generated by hand using vim.
14:09 autrijus sad but true :(
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14:09 theorbtwo Oh.  Perhaps I'll write something to generate it by script, then, since it seems to be missing quite a bit of stuff.
14:11 autrijus ok. the source data is unicore/*
14:11 autrijus To/* and gc_sc/*
14:12 autrijus I'll bbl. :)
14:12 autrijus nap &
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14:27 stevan morning all
14:29 stevan autrijus: what was the final outcome of all that $self.foo() vs .foo() debate?
14:30 stevan nothingmuch++ # for eval_ok, eval_is
14:30 stevan ingy++ # kwid stuff
14:31 * stevan is reading the SVN commit log :)
14:33 malaire btw, is 'todo_eval_is' implemented? When I try to run ./pugs t/op/substr.t, I get "No compatible subroutine found: &todo_eval_is"
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14:33 stevan malaire: I think you need to re-install Pugs
14:33 stevan malaire: so it can find the new Test.pm in your path
14:34 malaire thanks, that works
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14:42 malaire I have some problems with test-file. Within pugs C< my $str = "foobar"; substr($str, 0, 1) > works, but when I run ./pugs t/op/substr.t first test fails and says "Got: was fatal"
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14:47 stevan malaire: does the test fail? or is it all TODO test failing
14:47 stevan I see all TODO tests failing
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14:48 malaire I mean with my new substr-code added, it should not fail because same code works when run within pugs-interpreter
14:49 stevan you implemented substr?
14:49 malaire partly, I'm just writing that
14:50 stevan oh,.. hmmm. Well I think t/op/substr.t has !#/usr/bin/pugs at the top,.. which might affect things
14:51 stevan but then if you are running it with ./pugs that shouldnt be an issue
14:54 autrijus stevan: no final solution yet. larry needs time to think. which is good
14:56 stevan autrijus: ok
14:56 malaire if I submit my current substr-code, could someone see why the first tests are still failing while same code works in pugs interpreter?
14:57 autrijus sure.
14:57 malaire I'm just quessing that todo_eval_is might be broken...
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14:58 malaire ok, r848
14:59 stevan malaire: I have seen some parse bugs which even eval dies on
15:00 hide my tests do that. eval dies on them.
15:02 stevan ok I have to go set up a server now, but I will be back for more perl6 File::Spec later
15:02 hide I just changed them from ok(eval ... ) to todo_eval_ok(...) and now they die.
15:03 hide where as before my ok(eval ...) syntax was wrong.
15:03 malaire with r484 substr should work for most cases (index-out-of-range is not working, and neither is substr-as-lvalue)
15:03 malaire substr("camel", 0|1, 2&3) works also :)
15:04 malaire err, r848
15:05 hide should I commit the tests as dying or comment them out?
15:07 obra hide: if you comment them out, add a todo test about them.
15:07 obra autrijus: is that a reasonable plan for tests that are dying on syntax error?
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15:11 Odin- has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
15:12 Jonathan_ I've started doing regular (daily, provided my computer is on) automated builds of a Pugs Win32 binary so Windows folks who aren't into compiling stuff can still play with Perl 6. Available at http://www.jwcs.net/users/jonathan/perl6/ - feedback/hatemail welcome. :)
15:13 Odin- has joined #perl6
15:15 autrijus !. !.
15:15 autrijus Jonathan++
15:15 Forth put that on pugscode XD
15:16 obra autrijus: why isn't pugscode.org a wiki?
15:17 cnhackTNT_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:18 autrijus obra: tuits?
15:18 autrijus also, need a kwiki theme for that
15:18 theorbtwo Just redirect it to pugs.kwiki.org?
15:18 autrijus that works too. again, need a theme and some kind of privacy / antispam
15:19 cnhackTNT_ has joined #perl6
15:20 autrijus Jonathan_: pugscode.org now links to you
15:21 Jonathan_ Wow...now I just gotta hope Pugs doesn't get featured on /. :)
15:22 malaire it was yesterday...
15:22 autrijus try again. :) ghc-unicode.tar.gz
15:22 autrijus err http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/16/2151205&amp;tid=145&amp;tid=8
15:23 theorbtwo Sometimes I wish kwiki had real (Read: password-protected) accounts, so you could do reasonable nofollow.
15:24 clkao prepare for the trolls!
15:24 Jonathan_ Wow, how'd I miss that...nice. :)
15:35 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
15:35 obra yes. definitely not the time to create a pugswiki
15:38 rjbs More and more, I think any post with decent grammar and several paragraphs will get +5 Interesting.
15:40 theorbtwo ...and it annoys the heck out of me that getting a "funny" rating will make a post go up faster then getting an "interesting" rating.
15:40 rjbs I advise ignoring /. ; sound, fury, nothing.
15:41 theorbtwo I mostly do.
15:41 autrijus most days I read at +5 ;)
15:41 autrijus or +3 and with heavy "Funny" penalty
15:41 autrijus that way it's almost nice.
15:42 autrijus ok. anyone with GHC 6.2 around?
15:42 clkao me
15:42 clkao me
15:42 pjcj two versions?
15:43 theorbtwo aut, you can do that?
15:43 autrijus theorbtwo: sure, "preferences"
15:43 autrijus clkao: ok. latest version may or may not work.
15:43 autrijus r849
15:43 autrijus tomyan: I think that will also fix illegal instruction foo
15:45 malaire in /. I have threshold +3 & Funny-penalty -6  -- that's quite nice
15:46 autrijus but that may make win32 unbuildable.
15:46 autrijus so please test.
15:46 * dada goes testing
15:47 tomyan it says that src/Unicode.hs is missing
15:47 dada Warning: the following files are missing in your kit:
15:47 dada        src/Unicode.hs
15:47 autrijus r850.
15:47 dada Please inform autrijus.
15:47 tomyan yep r850
15:47 dada r850 me too
15:48 dada and build fails
15:48 autrijus on win32?
15:48 dada yes, on Win32 (Can't find module `Unicode')
15:48 autrijus weird that's not the error I expected
15:49 dada while compiling src/Internals.hs, apparently
15:49 autrijus but src/Unicode.hs is there
15:49 dada no
15:49 dada ohhhhhhh wait wait
15:49 dada i did svn up and *then* nmake clean
15:49 autrijus heh.
15:49 dada redo
15:50 tomyan ok got it, trying now
15:51 clkao autrijus: what are the expected failures?
15:51 dada r851 now, and it builds
15:51 malaire just a quick test with eval_is gives problems:
15:51 malaire is(eval 'substr($str, 0, 1)', "f", "...");  # is ok
15:51 autrijus dada: you have cl.exe in your path?
15:51 malaire eval_is('substr($str, 0, 1)', "f", "...");  # fails
15:51 dada autrijus: yes
15:51 dada only one warning when linking
15:51 dada Warning: .drectve `/DEFAULTLIB:"LIBC" /DEFAULTLIB:"OLDNAMES" ' unrecognized
15:52 clkao (7 subtests UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED), 10 subtests skipped.
15:52 clkao Failed 13/105 test scripts, 87.62% okay. 6/1786 subtests failed, 99.66% okay.
15:52 autrijus ok fixing that
15:52 dada mmm
15:53 dada autrijus: I think UnicodeC.c is compiled always
15:53 autrijus right. I fixed that.
15:53 autrijus r852
15:53 autrijus clean and rebuild
15:54 dada I'm in nmake test right now :-)
15:54 cnhackTNT_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:54 autrijus the only test that matters to this is t/syntax/unicode.t
15:54 dada not there yet
15:55 dada pugs is becoming slow to test... :-)
15:55 autrijus we need a faster evaluator
15:55 autrijus :)
15:55 autrijus I'm working on that too. should be the next commit
15:55 cnhackTNT_ has joined #perl6
15:56 theorbtwo You can run a single test: PERL6LIB=./blib6/lib ./pugs t/syntax/unicode.t
15:56 clkao autrijus: i think it wokrs.
15:56 autrijus clkao: r852? good!
15:56 cnhackTNT_ is now known as cnhackTNT|away
15:56 autrijus and no warnings whatsoever?
15:56 clkao autrijus: but now make always want to recompile the unicode.hsc
15:56 * theorbtwo wonders if the harness should be made to run tests in a random order.
15:56 autrijus clkao: there is no longer a unicode.hsc
15:56 autrijus clkao: it should be killed
15:56 autrijus is it not for you?
15:57 tomyan after Linking... i get gcc: UnicodeC.o: No such file or directory
15:57 tomyan hav just updated
15:57 autrijus tomyan: right... sorry, plan changed, svn up again :)
15:57 clkao was r851
15:57 autrijus r852 is now inlining UnicodeC.
15:57 tomyan i mean i am trying again after updating
15:57 autrijus ok, danke
15:58 * dada now building r852
15:59 theorbtwo Hmmpf.  On the one hand, I find myself the proud owner of account #493.
15:59 theorbtwo On the other hand, I find that it's named "James Mastros (The O".
16:03 * autrijus hopes it works for tomyan
16:03 stevan FreeBSD port tree ++
16:04 autrijus so, 30% of the codepath is on Unicode
16:04 autrijus and of the remaining, 50% is on Eval.reduce
16:04 hide svn: Failed to add file 'src/Unicode.hs': object of the same name already exists
16:04 autrijus based on the two pieces of information, I just added -O to the two modules.
16:04 autrijus hide: right, need to rm that before updating
16:04 autrijus r852. now pugs is significantly faster.
16:04 tomyan nope
16:05 tomyan illegal instruction
16:05 autrijus still illegal instruction?
16:05 autrijus bummer. I thought it's a typecasting problem.
16:06 tomyan is it a sizeof(some data type) problem
16:06 autrijus oh?
16:06 autrijus iiinteresting
16:06 dada r852 working on Win32 (GHC 6.2.2) and unicode.t 100% ok
16:06 tomyan is a 64 bit machine, but kernel runs progs in 32bit userspace
16:06 tomyan i think
16:06 autrijus hrmph hrmph.
16:07 cnhackTNT|away has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
16:09 tomyan am i right in thinking that you interface with some c code and there is some conversion between native haskell types and c types?
16:09 tomyan in src/Unicode.hs?
16:09 tomyan am looking at the code, but no haskell or c fu so just guessing
16:11 hide was there a decision on tests that die and commenting them out?
16:12 kungfuftr autrijus: do you know of any IRC bots that can do smoke tests?
16:13 autrijus no idea
16:13 autrijus hide: not that I know of. use eval'' if possible I think?
16:13 hide yeah, it is in an eval, but the eval doesn't capture it.
16:14 tomyan autrijus:if pugs will use unicode features of ghc 6.4.1 when it is released, your time might be better spent on other features, rather than this bug which will go away by itself anyway
16:14 autrijus tomyan: just one final try please
16:15 tomyan of course
16:15 tomyan i am glad to be of any help i can
16:17 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
16:19 autrijus ok. I hope this still makes ghc 6.2 happy
16:19 dvergin has joined #perl6
16:19 autrijus that's going to be the final try :)
16:19 autrijus tomyan: 855
16:19 tomyan building
16:19 * autrijus crosses fingers
16:20 malaire is there a place where I could add tests testing Test.pm module? (at least eval_is is broken, and should perhaps be tested)
16:20 autrijus malaire: ext/Test/t
16:20 malaire not in t/ ?? will those be run among normal tests?
16:21 autrijus somebody on ghc 6.2 please try 855 too
16:21 autrijus it should work but not guaranteed
16:21 hide I'll give it a go
16:22 theorbtwo Compiles, passes unicode.t
16:23 autrijus yay. Unicode.hs now goes from being ~10% of execution time into 1%
16:23 autrijus all bottleneck is on reduce now.
16:23 autrijus reduce                         Eval                  53.8   53.3
16:24 theorbtwo Heh, I take it I no longer need to write a Unicode.c creator...
16:26 autrijus theorbtwo: yes :)
16:26 autrijus someone did that in haskell
16:26 autrijus and is already in GHC 6.4.1 trunk
16:26 hlafarge has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:26 lightstep has joined #perl6
16:26 lightstep j0
16:26 theorbtwo Oh, lightstep, you should fix your AUTHORS entry.
16:26 autrijus hi lightstep-san!
16:26 autrijus I never got your mail
16:26 theorbtwo And good-morning.
16:26 autrijus or did I miss it?
16:27 lightstep perhaps
16:27 lightstep i'm not near my computer now, anyway (until sunday)
16:27 autrijus what is the name in From: ? :)
16:27 lightstep it's on lightstep.woobling.org, if that matters
16:28 lightstep [email@hidden.address]
16:28 lightstep or Amir Livne Bar-On
16:28 tomyan is the same
16:28 tomyan sorry
16:29 autrijus ok. I give up :)
16:29 autrijus please use the win32 branch in Unicode.hs locally for now :)
16:29 tomyan well thanks for trying, will use pugs on i386 until ghc 4.1 comes out
16:29 lumi Oh
16:29 lumi I know you
16:30 lightstep theorbtwo, can you do that for me? i'm Amir "lightstep" Livne Bar-On, and the unicode of the hebrew name is on my site at woobling
16:30 autrijus lightstep: aha. got your mail
16:30 theorbtwo Cool, will-do.
16:30 theorbtwo You'll be the first person with a unicode name, but no CPAN ID.
16:31 lightstep my code is probably very unfit: i didn't know the structure of the evaluator well then i wrote it (not that i know much more now)
16:35 autrijus lightstep: oh. care to describe in brief how unfit it is?
16:36 lightstep the subroutine creation and enclosing (as in closure) are probably not what they should me
16:36 lightstep and more places should be converted to doFromValue
16:36 autrijus or just fromValue
16:36 lightstep (which places, i don't know. i changed op2Numberic and op1Printing manually)
16:36 autrijus which is preferred
16:36 lightstep i wasn't sure which is better
16:37 autrijus oh. fromValue is better.
16:37 lightstep i think intermixed them
16:37 lightstep which is not good
16:37 lightstep also, doRunSingle should ve fixed to not use vCast
16:38 autrijus k.
16:40 chip Hey all, I'm looking for a way to integrate Params::Validate into Perl 6 parameter syntax.  Is there already a Perl 6 native way to do this ... i.e. if I did it in Perl 6, what would it liikely look like?
16:41 autrijus oh. wow. chip!
16:41 autrijus did not notice you here :)
16:41 chip method foo (str $s is validated( regex => /stuff/ ), ... )  ?
16:41 autrijus chip: look into "where"
16:41 chip autrijus: hey there.  just found out about this channel
16:42 autrijus ah. thanks for increasing this channel's pumpking count
16:42 chip there are others?
16:42 autrijus rgs for example?
16:42 theorbtwo Three, AFAIK.
16:42 * chip 's pecking order instinct takes over
16:42 autrijus and schwern too
16:43 theorbtwo You, RGS, and Autrijus, pumpking of pugs r0..858 and counting.
16:43 autrijus theorbtwo: schwern :)
16:43 chip S09 doesn't mention "where".  Where, um, is it?
16:43 autrijus chip: try S12
16:43 chip ok
16:44 rgs hi chip
16:44 * rgs awakes
16:44 * rgs back to sleep &
16:44 autrijus ...
16:44 lightstep isn't a pumpking's responsibility to not accept patches sometimes? so is autrijus really a pumpking?
16:44 autrijus ha.
16:44 ninereasons has joined #perl6
16:44 autrijus I don't accept patches.
16:44 autrijus I hand out committer bits.
16:44 autrijus quite different.
16:44 rgs you're a metapumpking then.
16:45 lightstep but you _do_ control the main server
16:45 kungfuftr autrijus is really a crackfuelled perlking
16:45 autrijus lightstep: aye. true
16:45 theorbtwo He's also a double-meta pumpking, even.
16:45 chip "where".  Clever.
16:46 chip But given   Num where { $^n % 1 }   why not $_ ?
16:46 autrijus clarity.
16:46 lightstep heh. my firefox doesn't read chinese
16:46 autrijus $_ works too.
16:48 autrijus oh. o. o. ooo. ooh. o.
16:48 autrijus the story of Perl OO is the story of o.
16:48 chip Why do $_ and $^n both work?  I know what $^n is, btw
16:48 chip Num where { .odd }
16:48 autrijus # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/19821
16:49 autrijus chip: see "implicit params" for the reason.
16:49 autrijus $_ is autoextracted just like $^N
16:49 autrijus $^n
16:49 autrijus where $^n is autoextracted into $n, $_ is into *$_.
16:49 autrijus (I think)
16:50 chip So  { $^a + $^b }  eq  { $^a + $_ }  if you pass two params?
16:50 autrijus I think _ sorts best.
16:50 autrijus so that would be $^b + $_
16:50 autrijus err
16:50 autrijus I mean $^b + $^a.
16:51 autrijus anyway you know what I mean.
16:51 chip But you have to do something that uses $_ to trigger that?  Me _not_ like
16:51 chip but I'll keep reading
16:51 autrijus well, if you don't use $_ or .foo or .[0]
16:51 chip And WRT "o" ... dammit, that's just wrong.  I like $_ invocant
16:51 autrijus then that closure is good as a nullary
16:52 autrijus mmm sleepy brain
16:52 autrijus o.no
16:52 autrijus o.rz
16:52 autrijus that however agrees with Juerd's suggestion.
16:52 autrijus only he uses $s / $o
16:52 chip but that means the parse tree must produce a boolean "did this block use $_", that kind of state is pretty ugly.  Still.  Hm.
16:53 autrijus uh, no
16:53 autrijus the extraction is done after the AST is built.
16:53 autrijus pugs implements that.
16:53 chip ok
16:53 autrijus it's AST.extract
16:53 autrijus if you are interested.
16:54 cflag has joined #perl6
16:54 autrijus _.meth
16:54 autrijus omg.
16:54 chip I'm interested, but incapable (of reading Haskell)
16:54 autrijus I thought you've been studying it :)
16:55 chip Made effort, paused for other issues
16:55 DapperDan has joined #perl6
16:55 autrijus I see.
16:59 lightstep apocalypse 5 says that in regexes, \x20 is the same as \040. did he mean \o40?
16:59 autrijus yes.
16:59 autrijus patches to p6l
16:59 autrijus :)
17:00 autrijus larry's brains agreed with each other.
17:01 theorbtwo Larry is Steve Martin?
17:02 ingy hola
17:03 Steve_p hey
17:03 theorbtwo Gruss dich.
17:03 Limbic_Region autrijus - it was Hamming Sequence I needed explained, not the lamda code - my solution is now posted (in p5 of course)
17:04 Limbic_Region AFAICT - it is the only correct original solution in the thread
17:04 * Limbic_Region does his happy dance
17:05 autrijus ooh .
17:05 autrijus Limbic_Region: url?
17:06 autrijus ingy: larry's brains is more kaleidoscopic than us, as evidenced in latest p6l post
17:06 cflag how different is haskell from cl
17:06 autrijus what is this CL thing?
17:06 autrijus commong lisp?
17:06 cflag common lisp
17:06 autrijus oh. eh.
17:07 * clkao is CL
17:07 * clkao has been ussing Franz CL
17:07 autrijus quite different.
17:07 autrijus it's lazy by default and purely functional.
17:07 autrijus so it is like a subset of CL
17:07 autrijus but again, almost all language is like a subset of CL.
17:07 theorbtwo AFAICT, haskell is a lot more serious about being functional.
17:08 theorbtwo So there's no equivlent to cons, or p5's push -- functions /never/ modify their argument.
17:08 autrijus not outside the IO monad.
17:09 theorbtwo Er, right.
17:09 autrijus autrijus.org/haskell_brain.html
17:09 autrijus I need to fix the translation.
17:10 ninereasons has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:10 cflag ok
17:11 lightstep haskell is also typeful
17:12 malaire has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
17:12 ninereasons has joined #perl6
17:12 autrijus "Haskell users is known to chant 'harry referential transparency' inccessantly"
17:12 lightstep theorbtwo, push also exists in lisp, but as a macro
17:12 theorbtwo It's very strange -- somehow, I want to read it like some sort of Flash Gordon episode.
17:14 theorbtwo I didn't realize it was a macro, but did realize it exists.  I don't know much lisp.
17:15 steveq has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
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17:16 * lightstep now really disappears for days
17:16 lightstep has quit IRC ()
17:16 sorje has joined #perl6
17:18 chip autrijus: almost all language implementation is a subset of CL.  almost all language syntax is a superset of CL.  :-)
17:18 autrijus :)
17:18 autrijus ooh the YY combinator.
17:18 autrijus "other languages may have the Y combinator, but only perl 6 has the YY combinator!"
17:19 autrijus (re larry's YY as short-circuiting zip())
17:19 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
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17:19 chip "_.frobme looks like someone stepped on the front of your expression"
17:20 theorbtwo Hm, ¥¥ doesn't look shorter then ¥ to me.
17:20 chip Am I gonna have to convert to mlterm just to read #perl6?
17:20 theorbtwo Almost makes me want to say that ï¿¥ keeps going, and Â¥ does not, but FFE5 isn't latin-1.  Anyway, they look too much alike.
17:21 chip ¥ is one character to me still
17:21 autrijus theorbtwo: no, er, the idea is to invoke idea about || and &&
17:21 autrijus "short-circuiting is made when you type something twice"
17:22 autrijus chip: gnome-terminal works too
17:22 theorbtwo That was YY vs Y on the first line, and full-width Y vs halfwidth Y on the second.
17:22 theorbtwo Yeah, but | and || do completely different things in p6.
17:22 theorbtwo That neumanic would make sense in p5, but not in p6.
17:23 autrijus V then
17:23 autrijus V looks like Y without filling ;)
17:23 autrijus 1,2 V 3,4
17:24 autrijus APL, here we come
17:24 chip autrijus: using gnome-terminal; which font are you using to see FE5?
17:25 chip FFE5, rahter
17:25 autrijus Arphic Ming
17:25 autrijus I think
17:25 theorbtwo Hm, I don't like pure alphabetic infix operators that don't look like English.
17:25 autrijus or Arphic HKSCS (Unicode)
17:26 theorbtwo Then again, I don't see the reason to have an infix version of everything; zip(:short @a; @b) reads well to me.
17:26 autrijus or zp() ;)
17:28 * theorbtwo wonders how much namespace is going to still be there for the users at this rate.
17:28 theorbtwo I suppose the prefix zip operator doesn't conflict with a zip method, at least.
17:28 DapperDan has quit IRC ()
17:34 autrijus true.
17:37 DapperDan has joined #perl6
17:37 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:38 ingy autrijus: I am massively attacking Makefile.PL
17:38 autrijus I wish you massive luck.
17:38 cflag has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
17:39 DapperDan has quit IRC (Client Quit)
17:40 autrijus btw, I think the DOM idea is totally on the right track.
17:40 autrijus mugwump++ ingy++
17:41 theorbtwo DOM idea?
17:42 chip Perl has always supported subs, so it's about time we support the doms too.
17:42 autrijus theorbtwo: POD being a DOM with different representations
17:42 theorbtwo Aaah.
17:43 autrijus it's really integrating Pod::Simple into core, so to speak
17:43 autrijus with good accessors for things
17:44 autrijus map { o.process($_) }
17:45 autrijus ingy: have you thought about something similar to o and c in Spiffy's light?
17:47 ingy sorry, not following you
17:48 autrijus ingy: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/19821 on
17:49 Juerd mac--  # keyboard repeat gets fast only after 2 initial slow repeats
17:49 tomyan has left "Kopete 0.9.2 : http://kopete.kde.org"
17:49 autrijus ingy: so your Makefile.PL hackery will deliver us from uninstalling Test.pm with UNINST=1 on pugs?
17:52 ingy ha
17:52 ingy I'm just moving all the crap into proper util scripts
17:53 autrijus nod
17:53 ingy and cleaning up cruft
17:53 ingy autrijus: Perl6 is my Spiffy :P
17:55 autrijus so you think c and o is sane?
17:55 autrijus larry in not on some destructively psychedelic drug?
17:56 Limbic_Region autrijus - sorry - lunch - [id://440431]
17:56 Limbic_Region errr http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=440431 even
17:56 autrijus ...
17:57 theorbtwo Hm, it does seem like a somewhat wacko idea... but OTOH it also seems like a low-noise way of fixing the problem.
17:57 ingy o  fits my brain
17:57 theorbtwo I'd prefer to think of them as magical variables rather then the result of methods/subs, but that doesn't fit well with making them nice and short.
17:58 gaal has joined #perl6
17:58 autrijus (o Y c) ^ (._.V x ?.<>)
17:58 gaal hi all
17:58 clkao wtf
17:58 autrijus I like the ._.V expression.
17:59 autrijus it's even legal :)
17:59 Aankh|Clone has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:59 theorbtwo Hmm, I think I get it all except ?.<>
17:59 autrijus ?.<> === so($_.{''})
17:59 theorbtwo Ah, of course!
18:00 gaal er, what language is that?
18:00 autrijus gaal: perl 6.
18:00 autrijus no user-defined operators, even.
18:00 gaal autrijus, that's a parsefail for my mental model of perl6 :)
18:01 gaal ah
18:01 gaal ah
18:01 gaal oh
18:01 gaal ouch
18:01 theorbtwo LOL.
18:01 autrijus a golfer's dream come true.
18:02 theorbtwo p6: Where east-asian simlies are valid code.
18:02 gaal i probably missed the part where you said what it means?
18:02 autrijus really, with one-casting-cost o and c in the OO color
18:02 Steve_p Ahhh, Sawgrass
18:02 autrijus finally it will be competitive on the golfing tournaments
18:02 Steve_p Oh, sorry, wrong golf ;)
18:03 autrijus gaal: it doesn't mean something terribly useful. I'm just trying to tease my brain (and yours) about the sanity of o and c
18:03 gaal i missed the definition of those two
18:04 autrijus gaal: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/19821
18:04 theorbtwo o(?Int=0) is an invocant; c(?Int=0) is the class of the invocant.
18:05 gaal gotcha.
18:06 * gaal .push(tie and other hook TODO tests on packages+symtable)
18:08 dvergin has joined #perl6
18:10 theorbtwo Allo, dvergin.
18:10 autrijus my mental reconfiguration is done.
18:10 * dvergin runs for the corner
18:11 * autrijus posts a virtually contentless fanmail for o and c on p6l
18:11 obra o and c?
18:11 autrijus obra: o is $self
18:11 autrijus c is ref($self)
18:12 obra heh
18:12 DapperDan has joined #perl6
18:12 obra oh. sorry. I was context deprived
18:12 * obra reas scroll
18:12 autrijus full post: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/19821
18:12 Aran_ has joined #perl6
18:13 Aran_ Hi all!  Terrence Brannon gave a great perl6 presentation a couple weeks ago at our mongers meeting in thousand oaks.
18:13 Steve_p metaperl++
18:14 Aran_ So, I was inspired to install Haskell and Pugs.  Haskell install went fine, but the pugs install is giving me an odd error (saying I don't have perl 6?):
18:14 obra hm. I think I'd sort of like to see "me" instead of o.
18:14 ingy I DON'T SWIM IN YOUR TOILET. PLEASE DON'T PEE IN THE Makefile.PL
18:14 autrijus ingy: hm?
18:14 obra Aran_: tried building from source?
18:14 ingy Makefile.PL is clean now
18:14 autrijus Aran_: 6.0.11?
18:15 Aran_ obra: Haskell is built from source (6.2.2) and Pugs is being built from source.
18:15 autrijus uh. you built ghc from source.
18:15 autrijus thanks for your patience.
18:15 autrijus Aran_: so, do you have svn? can you check out the latest trunk?
18:15 Aran_ I use gentoo, so I like to build my stuff.  :)  I'd die with kde.
18:15 autrijus and what is your platform?
18:15 Aran_ sure
18:16 autrijus ok.
18:16 autrijus is it the latest trunk that fails?
18:16 Aran_ Nah, the 6.0.11 from cpan.  I'll try the trunk.
18:16 autrijus http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
18:16 autrijus is the trunk url.
18:16 Aran_ ok
18:16 Aran_ thanks autrijus
18:16 autrijus also, nopaste the full error when you have chance
18:17 autrijus pasteling: help
18:17 autrijus hrm. I don't really know how to use pasteling :)
18:17 theorbtwo perlbot, nopaste?
18:17 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
18:17 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
18:19 Aran_ oh, nice pasting tool.  Pasteing as we speak.
18:20 gaal except you want perl6, not perl.
18:20 * obra ponders foundry pastebot integration
18:20 pasteling "Aran_" at 64.70.54.15 pasted "My error when trying to build pugs 6.0.11" (13 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8301
18:21 autrijus Aran_: ah. that's okay.
18:21 autrijus and I think trunk already fixed it.
18:22 autrijus the main tests all passed, which is what counts for now.
18:22 Aran_ Building trunk now, so we'll find out shortly.
18:22 Aran_ true
18:22 autrijus trunk's pugs should also be much faster, up to 5x or so.
18:22 autrijus not sure if anyone cares at this point though.
18:23 crysflame why's that?
18:23 crysflame (faster)
18:23 autrijus crysflame: better C-based Unicode library and two strategic -O flags.
18:23 crysflame yay
18:23 Aran_ Thats great.  Doesn't pugs have a future?  I mean, why would faster not be important unless pugs was getting ditched at some point.
18:24 autrijus Aran_: the evalutor's speed is not of much importance I think, because if you want speed, you use the compiler eventually.
18:24 Aran_ autrijus: oh, gotcha, that makes sense
18:24 obra how much faster does compiled pugscode run?
18:24 autrijus obra: I don't know, we don't have a compiler.
18:25 autrijus pugscc is a packager like perlcc.
18:25 autrijus not a true compiler.
18:25 autrijus pugscc can save some processing and parsing overhead
18:25 autrijus but that's all. again same as perlcc.
18:26 theorbtwo pugscc will allow you to bypass the parser, but not the evaluator.
18:26 autrijus yup.
18:26 rgs and when do you port PAR to pugs ? :)
18:26 autrijus I think it's pugscc :)
18:27 * Limbic_Region discovers his understanding of the Hamming sequence was wrong and that he was the only one who didn't get it right
18:28 autrijus Limbic_Region: ...
18:28 autrijus although a fast evaluator means faster test cycles
18:28 autrijus which gives us a motivation to write more tests.
18:28 gaal [off topic] http://code.google.com/ - "Welcome to Google Code, Google's place for Open Source software"
18:28 Aran_ autrijus: well, that was neat to watch, trunk gave me quite a few errors (88.57% okay).  I'll go ahead and install it tho and start playing.  Finally!  Perl 6!  YAYAYA
18:28 autrijus :)))
18:28 autrijus have fun!
18:28 autrijus I'll sleep now.
18:28 Aran_ will do.  you do that.  thanks.
18:29 theorbtwo G'night, autrijus.
18:29 autrijus *wave* &
18:30 * gaal means "wave" in Hebrew
18:30 obra sleep well, autrijus
18:32 Aran_ nive.  kwid is like wiki text (big yay over pod).  I love the ascii "PUGS" graphic.  Also, I like how the cli is like entering vim commands.  Good job.
18:32 Aran_ s/nive/nice/
18:35 gaal my telepathic link to the net... :)
18:35 obra  :)
18:36 gaal http://www.livejournal.com/users/evan_tech/ , cool person and good hacker.
18:36 obra cool
18:38 theorbtwo Yah, evan's pretty cool.
18:38 theorbtwo (And, somewhat relevantly, presently in the employ of google.)
18:38 chip Hey all:   my sub ($x is rw of Num where { $_ % 1 })?
18:38 chip or:   my sub ($x of Num where { $_ % 1 } is rw) ?
18:38 obra Apparently, it also just got released at etech
18:39 gaal obra: what's etech?
18:39 obra Oreilly's Emerging Technologies conference
18:39 chip It's the conference for cool people.  OH LOOK YOU'RE NOT THERE
18:39 chip OH WAIT NEITHER AM I NEVER MIND
18:39 obra chip: are you asking what current syntax is or what reads best?
18:39 gaal my telepathic link, you see, it gets blocked sometimes.
18:39 chip obra: I'm asking which one is current
18:39 obra ah. That, I'm no good at.
18:44 chip Larry says that C<$length = "mystring".codes> autoboxes from str to Str.
18:44 chip however, str is not Unicode and Str is.
18:44 chip This bothers me.
18:44 theorbtwo str isn't unicode?
18:45 chip "str         native string (sequence of integers, no Unicode)"  - S06
18:45 chip "Str         Perl string (Unicode semantics)" - ibid
18:45 theorbtwo Blink, blink.
18:45 chip yeah.  me too.
18:46 theorbtwo That should probably be revisited, because S regs in Parrot do unicode.
18:46 gaal http://amaztype.tha.jp/US/Books/Title?q=pugs      # i will stop my linkage staright away, promise; this is too cute though.
18:47 rgs wait wait, you can't say something is "native" without saying in which encoding it is
18:47 obra a string is an int sequence with no encoding? indeed.
18:48 chip Larry just doesn't seem to get the dangers of saying that the encodings are someone else's problem.
18:50 rgs there's the ambient encoding, for literal strings
18:54 chip But that would imply that "foo" isa Str, not str
18:54 chip If you can't make a str with "foo", how can you make one?  What's the point?
18:54 chip *sigh*
18:57 rgs so str are useless
18:58 theorbtwo No, it just implies that using method call syntax on a str makes it into a Str.
18:59 rgs using which encoding ?
19:00 theorbtwo Hmm, under the S06 rules you quoted?  No clue.
19:00 rgs current locale ? current program encoding ? (when it's not bytecode) other pragmatic directive ?
19:00 nothingmuch why are str useless? they are good for binary data, without the overhead
19:01 rgs if str are simple binary data you can't convert them to unicode semantics
19:01 rgs hence, the need to specify a conversion mechanism
19:06 nothingmuch i mean without conversion
19:06 nothingmuch if i'm dealing with data, not human strings, then why would I want the overhead of unicode, for things like length calcs, or conversions?
19:07 nothingmuch IMHO a Str is what you get out of a str when you know what's in it
19:07 rgs well, something needs to be clarified here
19:07 nothingmuch from then on they can coerce into other encodings
19:07 nothingmuch implicitly
19:07 nothingmuch with only the boundries specifying what goes in and what goes out
19:07 nothingmuch i.e., what encoding is a filehandle
19:07 nothingmuch etc
19:08 nothingmuch with unicode as the common base
19:08 nothingmuch and yes, things need to be clarified, i think
19:08 rgs that said,
19:08 * rgs off to Paris.pm meeting &
19:08 nothingmuch ciao
19:08 rgs see you tomorrow.
19:08 nothingmuch if anybody is looking for testing
19:09 theorbtwo What you want is a binary charset, which has no semantics -- uc/lc/titlecasing it is always an error, and there are no conversions to other charsets.
19:09 nothingmuch i think that s06 is pretty fun
19:09 nothingmuch and not well covered
19:09 theorbtwo Oh, and graphemes is always equal to chars.
19:09 theorbtwo But that's not the same as "has no charset".
19:10 nothingmuch theorbtwo: in a str, i think yes
19:10 nothingmuch unless i say 'all the strs here are foo'
19:10 nothingmuch imho that is equivelent to no charset, in the traditional set
19:10 nothingmuch or 'this str is bar'
19:10 nothingmuch well, you could argue thaty
19:10 nothingmuch or an array of things the size of chars in the err, less traditional set, as a bit vector
19:10 gaal probably uc etc. fail silently is better.
19:10 * nothingmuch isn't in favour of silence for such things
19:10 gaal or maybe not. dunno.
19:11 nothingmuch it's something explicit
19:11 nothingmuch transform this to that
19:11 theorbtwo This debate has been done before.
19:11 nothingmuch (Err, can't do that)
19:11 nothingmuch (whatever)
19:11 theorbtwo In many different contexts.
19:12 gaal *shrug* i don't really have a position i care about strong.y
19:12 gaal also, i'm off. see 'ya later, peeps.
19:12 nothingmuch ciao
19:12 nothingmuch theorbtwo: what decision was reached?
19:12 gaal has left
19:13 nothingmuch i think that anything that is really explicit
19:13 nothingmuch and not reasonable to fail
19:13 nothingmuch draw your line at ...
19:13 nothingmuch should fail given 'use fatal'
19:13 nothingmuch for example, the index() debate
19:14 nothingmuch i think is ok for silent failures
19:14 nothingmuch otoh something like conversion, is a bit different for me
19:14 nothingmuch how near/far is perl6's percieved status?
19:16 nothingmuch also, will you be able to subclass code references
19:17 nothingmuch and cause different behavior of subs?
19:18 nothingmuch crap, bbiab... sorry for asking and running away
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19:33 chip Given 'str $a', is defined($a) guaranteed?
19:33 Juerd Should be
19:33 theorbtwo I think so, yeah.
19:34 Juerd It should either always be, never be, or be a runtime error
19:34 Juerd Compile time if possible
19:34 Juerd I think the most sane approach is to declare it true with a warning
19:38 chip Hm.  I wonder whehter Parrot's string registers can hold "no string here"
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20:01 ingy who runs the nopaste server for this channel?
20:01 Khisanth which?
20:01 jabbot Khisanth: which is not good
20:01 Khisanth thrig handles pasteling
20:01 ingy nopaste?
20:02 Khisanth http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 ?
20:03 ingy yes
20:03 Khisanth that would be thrig
20:03 ingy where does thrig hang out?
20:04 theorbtwo Well, apparently, some guy named Jeremy Mates.
20:04 Khisanth #perl
20:04 Khisanth and apparently #macosxhints :)
20:05 ingy thanks
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20:19 * ayrnieu gives up on getting svk installed.
20:36 ayrnieu er, OK.  Neither svk nor darcs want to cooperate.  Game over.
20:36 ayrnieu has left
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21:23 chip Anybody know whether C<my str $s> can hold undef?
21:23 chip er, Juerd and theorbtwo seem to have answered 'probably'...?
21:24 theorbtwo No, shouldn't be able to.
21:24 theorbtwo OTOH, pugs will "implement" str by pretending you said Str.
21:25 chip bug? feature?  YOU be the judge
21:27 theorbtwo sleep &
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21:33 dada goodnacht
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22:03 Juerd chip: It cannot hold undef, but that doesn't meant defined should return true
22:03 chip OK, that's just wrong.
22:03 * chip is of course speaking from ignorance, even if he is right
22:03 Juerd chip: I think it should, for sanity's sake, but there is no rule saying that something that cannot be undefined is actually defined :)
22:03 chip Juerd: A system in which such a rule is required is likely not going to get much attention from me
22:04 chip fwiw
22:04 Juerd Then how did you get this far in Perl 5?
22:04 Juerd In which undef is a variable, and can be as defined as the next $foo.
22:05 Juerd All it takes is turning off its read only flag, which isn't that hard.
22:05 chip Juerd: That's only possible by reaching outside the language, and you know it.
22:05 * chip 's finger hovers above Juerd's bozo bit
22:06 Juerd In this context, I wonder if defined for an str should maybe return undef, rather than bool::true or bool::false
22:06 * chip 's finger drops
22:06 Juerd chip: If something doesn't have fooness, then is it foo? unfoo?
22:07 Juerd So I think the better question is whether a str has definedness.
22:07 Juerd I can even envision defined($the_str) returning undef but true
22:08 chip The only important question is whether Perl 6 has the buddha nature
22:08 Juerd Anyway, if English is any guide for a programming language, then defined should probably always return true for strs
22:10 chip What is the sound of adding a single number?
22:11 metaperl_ a curried function
22:11 metaperl_ that's the Haskell answer, at least:
22:11 metaperl_ add_single n = (+ n)
22:11 Juerd That depends on many factors, including the applicable force of gravity and the single number's weight.
22:11 metaperl_ done
22:11 Juerd And the velocity at which the number is added, obviously.
22:12 metaperl_ ah, I gave the *definition* of adding a single number... the continuation in fact... but ignored the physical requirements of the question
22:12 chip Is that an african or european number?
22:12 metaperl_ is chip chip salzenberg?
22:12 Juerd chip: That's a purely notational difference.
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22:14 chip Me am.  He is.  Whatever.
22:15 Juerd "By the way, I think I've seen a few people suggest some sort of                
22:15 Juerd syntax-switching mechanism for "Pod6".  The day people have to think            
22:15 Juerd about what dialect of Pod they're using is the day Pod dies as a                
22:15 Juerd useful documentation language."
22:15 Juerd brentdax++  # I agree with his opinions re pod
22:15 chip Well, jeepers, it's not like C<use strict> kills Perl.
22:16 Juerd Perl's strength is not in simplicity
22:16 Juerd However, POD's is.
22:17 Juerd In that respect, POD is very un-perlish. Not everything has to be perlish, though. Only programming languages :)
22:17 chip It's the same brain, though.  I really don't get it.  Not that I care much either way.  The real problem with pod right now is the lack of left-margin markers.
22:17 chip Until that's solved, it's too hard to scan podified source code.
22:18 nothingmuch are there any plans for reimplementing all of perl6 with perl6, as far as possible, once it's ready?
22:18 nothingmuch i mean, will multi sub infix:<Y> is rw ((how do you specify the proto?)) { } be written in perl, or implemented in parrot, or something else?
22:18 Juerd chip: I agree that POD is hard to read when interleaved with the source
22:18 Juerd chip: However, for documenting outside the perl code, i.e. at the bottom of a module's source file, it's great.
22:18 avar has joined #perl6
22:19 Juerd nothingmuch: Perl 6 should by current plans be written in Perl 6
22:19 Juerd nothingmuch: Pugs is one possible way to bootstrap.
22:19 nothingmuch how is it supposed to err, perform normally given say:
22:19 nothingmuch $i = $i + $j;
22:20 nothingmuch in a tight loop, if it is doing MMD for every addition?
22:20 Juerd By knowing when not to MMD.
22:20 nothingmuch compile time dispatch, of my Int $i?
22:20 Juerd This is comparable to the non-problem of every block being a closure
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22:21 Juerd Yes, conceptually, every block is a closure, but internally, it'll only behave like one when necessary.
22:21 nothingmuch ok
22:21 nothingmuch will 'my $i = 5
22:21 nothingmuch '
22:22 nothingmuch be able to compile $i is Int properly, at least on a simple level?
22:22 Juerd I don't know
22:23 nothingmuch i.e., will there be some type inference, as a non-intrusive optimisation?
22:23 * nothingmuch wonders who will volunteer to deal with all these complexities in implementation
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22:29 chip nothingmuch: Sadly, when nobody with good design sense likes a given idea, it is implemented by the people without good design sense.  Thus, for example, Perl 5 operator overloading and 5.005 threads
22:30 chip And most of CPAN, come to think of it.
22:30 nothingmuch most of CPAN goes unnoticed, for that reason
22:30 nothingmuch but I think that the CPAN most of us speakof it's it's usefull subset
22:31 * nothingmuch shudders in memory of Mark Veltzer's 'Meta'
22:32 chip Never::Meta::Package::I::Didn::t::Like
22:33 nothingmuch ' as a namespace separator is deprecated... don't be naughty!
22:33 * nothingmuch has sinned and distributed something with Meta in it's name
22:33 nothingmuch but just because it was shorter and arguably more fitting than 'Compound'
22:34 nothingmuch Compound does not imply transcendance into another state
22:34 chip Dimensional transcendence
22:38 avar has left "Leaving"
22:44 stevan anyone know if .SUPER::method() is the right perl6 syntax?
22:44 nothingmuch no, it isn't
22:44 nothingmuch one second
22:44 nothingmuch :super
22:45 nothingmuch hmm, wait
22:45 stevan yeah exactly :)
22:45 stevan i am reading s12 trying to figure it out
22:46 nothingmuch there's got to be a more compact syntax than $object.*WALK[:canonical:super($?CLASS)]::method
22:46 crysflame wow
22:46 crysflame that's remarkably concise
22:46 nothingmuch seems like SUPER:: is the right way
22:46 chip there are times when I can only cry
22:46 nothingmuch but only by an implicit mention
22:46 crysflame chip: i like how your hostname is topaz
22:46 nothingmuch If you mark a class "is hidden", it hides the current class from "next METHOD" semantics, and incidentally suppresses the autogeneration of *%_ parameters. Hidden classes may be visited as SUPER::, but not via "next".
22:47 nothingmuch although i really really like the concept of *WALK[]
22:47 stevan me too
22:47 chip crysflame: A tornado expert with the initials TF had for many many years never actually observed a tornado in person.  He chose a vanity license plate of "TF 0000".
22:47 crysflame chip: ah
22:47 iwt has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:47 crysflame that's great :)
22:48 nothingmuch in terms of flexibility it is something i've often cried about
22:48 nothingmuch waited a week
22:48 nothingmuch and then implemented myself
22:48 nothingmuch in p5
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22:50 nothingmuch A role applied with does may be parameterized with an initializer in parentheses, but only if the role supplies exactly one attribute to the mixin class
22:50 nothingmuch $fido does Wag($tail);
22:50 nothingmuch is that in case the Wag role defines a delegate?
22:50 stevan nothingmuch: you should try this perl6 porting stuff,.. it's fun
22:51 nothingmuch stevan: unfortunately my time to pugs this week was all 10 minute chunks
22:51 stevan nothingmuch: mine was in 20 minute chunks :)
22:51 nothingmuch my concentration starts working only about an hour and a half into things
22:52 nothingmuch provided i am having no specific problem concentrating to start with
22:52 stevan thats the beauty of it,.. most of it is brain dead translation
22:52 * nothingmuch thinks sometimes ritalin would be a good tradeoff
22:52 nothingmuch stevan: i don't want to do braindead translation
22:52 crysflame i know meth heads that resorted to snorting ritalin when they ran out
22:52 stevan ritalin is pretty much pharma grade meth
22:52 stevan its methelphenidata
22:53 nothingmuch i want to be cunning, and witty =)
22:53 nothingmuch isn't it harder to get than meth?
22:53 stevan nothingmuch: you can get a script from a doctor, so no
22:53 nothingmuch stevan: as a parent getting one for a child, I see how it could be easier to pressure
22:53 nothingmuch but for a typical junkie
22:54 nothingmuch err, walking into a doctor's office
22:54 stevan nothingmuch: true
22:54 nothingmuch . o O ( "hey dude... uhm. i like, have problems concentrating, like, when, uhhh" )
22:54 stevan but here in the U.S. they are marketing ADD-drugs for adults now
22:54 nothingmuch ah
22:55 * stevan tried ritalin, but didn't like it
22:55 nothingmuch i am scared to death of trying these things
22:55 stevan I would rather wear my mental illness on my sleeve :)
22:55 nothingmuch i have not yet heard of a single wonder drug, that after many years retained a good reputation
22:55 nothingmuch except for aspirin
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22:56 nothingmuch and even it was subjected to criticism in the 70s, i think
22:56 stevan nothingmuch: the ADD drugs now are either speed (ritalin) or anti-depressents
22:56 stevan neither of which sound like a good thing to me
22:56 nothingmuch exactly
22:57 nothingmuch brain-chemistry stuff tend to have side-effects by the kilo
22:57 stevan I had all too many friends in art school get lost in (prozac | zoloft | paxil)
22:57 crysflame modafinil is fun
22:57 crysflame (theoretically)
22:58 nothingmuch and i think that if i got as far as i've got without them, the switch from fixing defect a to and getting defect b will probably not be worth it
22:58 nothingmuch if it's bound to be discovered as problematic later on
22:58 stevan my old girlfriend was on imipramil
22:58 nothingmuch heh
22:58 stevan nothingmuch: I suggest that unless it is causing problems in your life, just enjoy your "illness" :)
22:58 nothingmuch crysflame: why isn't it more popular? it's the first time i've heard of it
22:59 nothingmuch stevan: well, it does bother me a lot
22:59 crysflame i dunno. google it.
22:59 nothingmuch especially with the things i really like to do
22:59 nothingmuch (playing music, writing software, reading),
22:59 nothingmuch if i get into that state i must hike
22:59 nothingmuch and then i'm fixed for a few days
22:59 stevan there you go
23:00 stevan take a 5 mile hike and call me in the morning
23:00 nothingmuch but sometimes i can't
23:00 * nothingmuch hopes he can manage to balance his life such that weekends are always filled with exploration
23:00 nothingmuch the temporary fix for concentration problems is the TV
23:01 * nothingmuch suddenly realizes he hasn't watched any for about 3 weeks now
23:04 stevan nothingmuch: well have a good evening, time for me to eat
23:04 nothingmuch ciao, stevan1
23:04 nothingmuch tr/1/!/;
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23:38 nothingmuch wow...
23:38 nothingmuch subtypes++
23:38 nothingmuch fp for imperative heads, with a bit of oop thrown in
23:38 nothingmuch it's like AOP, but cleaner
23:38 nothingmuch and serves a different purpose
23:43 nothingmuch have we decided on a minable way to rever to a synopsis from a test?
23:44 mugwump nothingmuch: I plan to make that possible with POD linking.  Still in the works.
23:44 nothingmuch mugwump: have you decided on syntax?
23:44 theorbtwo Last I knew, # S<> S## "heading name"
23:44 nothingmuch L<Synopses/12/Types and Subtypes>?
23:44 theorbtwo Er, where the ## is a number.
23:44 nothingmuch oi
23:45 theorbtwo I don't know, though.
23:45 nothingmuch that's not pod linking
23:45 theorbtwo I just live here.
23:45 nothingmuch that's minable
23:45 theorbtwo No, that's not, that's a comment.
23:45 nothingmuch heh =)
23:45 theorbtwo "minable"?
23:45 mugwump I would think that it would look a lot like XPath, for the intra-document level / anchor
23:45 theorbtwo Able to be mined?
23:45 nothingmuch that can be mined
23:45 theorbtwo I should think that'd be mineable, but what do I know.
23:45 mugwump eg, in XPath you can refer to any h3 with //h3
23:46 nothingmuch do we want any xyz?
23:46 mugwump Absolutely, it should be minable.  I want to be able to mine my constants out of the POD.
23:46 mugwump At run time!  HLARGHARGHARH!
23:46 nothingmuch mugwump: are you referring to a future link format?
23:46 mugwump yes :)
23:46 nothingmuch ah
23:46 nothingmuch in that case, that's not what I meant
23:46 nothingmuch i have a test i'm about to commit
23:47 nothingmuch i just want to know if anybody's decided on how we link them back to synopses yet
23:47 theorbtwo nothingmuch, just write it in a comment in whatever format /you/ want to.
23:47 mugwump That's how I started on this thread as well.  I was going to write the "testegeses" (testes for short) that duplicated sections of the synopses, made comments and referred to the tests that demonstrate them.
23:47 nothingmuch theorbtwo: but it'll be the wrong format
23:48 * nothingmuch always uses the wrong formats
23:48 mugwump I wouldn't worry about it overly, for now.  If anything, I would think it would be a relative path to INC and then a heading to search for, for one type of link.
23:49 nothingmuch they should be sigma complete, in a concise way
23:49 nothingmuch the language should be able to easily document itself within itself
23:49 nothingmuch oops
23:49 nothingmuch i need to stop using /me's, it only works on perlmonks
23:49 mugwump eg, L<Description ../t/Synopses/S10#TITLE> would work
23:50 nothingmuch my #1 rule on the coolness of documentation format  design is:
23:50 mugwump But that's a fairly obtuse example of what I mean.
23:50 mugwump L<Description S10#TITLE> should also work
23:50 nothingmuch i'll go with the short version
23:50 nothingmuch and we'll just have to remember to grep for that when it stabilizes
23:50 mugwump If `S10' was a valid POD file in the search path
23:50 mugwump exactly
23:51 nothingmuch L<S10#Title> it is, until it clears up and turns out to be wrong
23:51 Aran_ has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.1/20050225]")
23:51 nothingmuch semantically, will it all be in tests, and each synopsis will have a list of backlinks to tests
23:52 nothingmuch showing where in the test the section of the synopsis was linked from?
23:52 nothingmuch because IMHO anything else is broken and no one will maintain it
23:52 mugwump good to see we have a similar point of view.
23:53 mugwump Are you in Israel, nothingmuch ?  Have you heard of the artist, "Infected Mushroom"?
23:53 nothingmuch yes i have
23:53 obra     heh. my friends around boston are very into Infected Mushroom
23:53 nothingmuch i don't listen to that music though, so i am not very knowlegable
23:53 nothingmuch but what I do know is that they(?) are very famous worldwide
23:54 nothingmuch even more than here
23:54 nothingmuch fp with subtypes:
23:54 nothingmuch multi sub fact (Num where { $^n == 0 }) { 1 }
23:54 nothingmuch multi sub fact (Num $n) { $n * fact($n-1) }
23:54 nothingmuch puhdaah!
23:55 nothingmuch damn that's pretty
23:55 nothingmuch and the fun thing is that where {} is just read 'smartmatch'
23:55 * theorbtwo reboots.
23:55 nothingmuch ciao, orb
23:56 theorbtwo has quit IRC ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
23:58 webmind_ is now known as webmind

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