Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:17 stevan nothingmuch: does that fact example work?
01:17 stevan if so, you should put in examples/fp.p6
01:17 stevan and even if it doesnt work you should do that anyway :)
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01:48 * Alias_ officially nicknames Larry's idea of o.method and c.something "The OC"
01:49 Alias_ I think naming that feature after a bad soap oddly appropriate
01:51 Odin-LAP Heh.
01:51 Odin-LAP It's an interesting idea, though.
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01:52 Alias_ "So if I want to call a normal public method, I use .method ... or $_.method ... or o.method?"
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01:53 Khisanth hrm why not just method;?
01:54 kolibrie stevan, wondering if my patch for logging test output got to you
01:54 Alias_ Khisanth: method; is a function
01:55 Khisanth .method too?
01:55 chip anybody live know the parameter syntax well?
01:55 Alias_ Well $_ would still refer to the invocant, and .method is $_.method
01:55 Alias_ unless $_ is no longer the invocant
01:55 chip it's not
01:55 Alias_ what?
01:55 jabbot Alias_: what is the name in From: ? :)
01:56 Alias_ when did $_ stop being the invocant?
01:56 Alias_ speaking of which, 1 minute until 11111111111
01:56 Alias_ err... two minutes
01:56 Odin-LAP This is coming up on every damn channel. ;)
01:57 Alias_ heh
01:57 * Alias_ imagines Freenode exploding as a trillion messages hit the server at once
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01:59 kolibrie anyone know how to specify in the Makefile.PL an environment variable to be set before running tests
02:12 markstos kolibrie: maybe: $ENV{MYVAR} = 'foo'; ?
02:13 kolibrie well, that would set it while Makefile.PL runs
02:13 kolibrie I want it to set something when make itself is running
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02:18 kolibrie I'll check back in later, in case anyone knows
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02:25 Alias_ Can someone tell me what "huffmanwise" means in language design context?
02:27 Odin-LAP Alias_: Often-used things should be short.
02:28 Alias_ So when people prefer .method as $_.method over .method as $self.method, the assumption is that $_.method is more common than $self.method?
02:28 Odin-LAP Something like that.
02:28 Alias_ Has anyone checked if that's true?
02:29 Odin-LAP How? ;>
02:29 Alias_ grep CPAN?
02:34 autrijus Alias_: well, the assumption is that, if outermost $self is called $_, $_.method is more common than $self.method.
02:35 autrijus which may or may not be true.
02:35 Alias_ We are gunna have to ditch $_ as $self
02:35 Alias_ I'm not sure I see a way around it
02:35 autrijus I am already firmly of the o camp now :)
02:35 Alias_ You know o is just a workaround right?
02:36 autrijus hm?
02:36 Alias_ Well... it's one of three solutions
02:36 Alias_ I posted my concerns to p6l
02:36 Alias_ Since when did we start forcing invocant names on people
02:37 autrijus er. no.
02:37 autrijus you can call your invocant whatever way you want.
02:37 Alias_ except that it's also called o
02:37 autrijus yes.
02:37 Alias_ and do we keep $_ as $self?
02:37 autrijus my ($self, $foo, $bar) = @_;
02:37 autrijus here invocant is also known as $_[0].
02:38 autrijus not sure if it bothered anyone
02:38 Alias_ My problem is the same as with the Apache:: crap that went on
02:38 Alias_ It's a workaround that makes the total solution more complex
02:38 autrijus inconsistency in style?
02:39 autrijus so. wait
02:39 Alias_ We are fixing a problem by adding something, when there's a perfectly useful and more symmetrical solution
02:39 autrijus other languages has a consistent name for invocant
02:39 autrijus "this" or "self"
02:39 Alias_ right
02:39 Alias_ Except we don't, but we do
02:39 autrijus we sort of settled to $self
02:39 Alias_ It's internally inconsistant
02:39 autrijus but that is not a reserved word
02:39 autrijus it's just another variable.
02:39 Alias_ Either we _do_ have a consistant invocant, or we don't
02:39 Alias_ true
02:40 autrijus So what is really wrong about have a consistant invocant of "o"
02:40 autrijus and forgetting $_?
02:40 Alias_ because we say we don't?
02:40 autrijus who says who don't? I say we do :)
02:40 Alias_ If we want a consistent invocant, why not just use $self?
02:40 autrijus or "self" for that matter
02:40 autrijus huffmanization I'd wager.
02:41 Alias_ GETTING SICK OF HUFFMANIZATION
02:41 autrijus self.refresh(self.foo() + self.bar(123))
02:41 autrijus o.refresh(o.foo() + o.bar(123))
02:41 autrijus well.
02:42 autrijus if "o" is called "self"
02:42 autrijus will that make your worries go away? :)
02:42 Alias_ If larry does the full change in direction, I'm cool with it
02:42 markstos I like 'o'. I could get used to it. I thought "$self" was strange ast first, but I got used to that.'$self' is sort of like 'that thing'. It might as well be called "o".
02:42 Alias_ markstos: It's the piecemeal nature
02:43 autrijus markstos: exactly my feeling.
02:43 Alias_ core things should be symmetrical and universal
02:43 Alias_ I'm cool with o.method if we also...
02:43 autrijus Alias_: if you grep CPAN I expect you to find that $self is only used for 80% or so of people.
02:43 markstos What can be more symetrical than a circle? "o"? :)
02:43 Alias_ 1. $_ is not the first invocant
02:43 autrijus I've seen modules that uses $this, $dbh, $object
02:43 Alias_ 2. We don't need method foo ( $self: ) any more
02:44 Alias_ What I'm saying is, if we are going to standardise the invocant, lets REALLY standardise it
02:44 autrijus 1. sure
02:44 autrijus 2. of course; method foo ($arg1, $arg2) works
02:44 Alias_ No, lets forbid it
02:44 Alias_ Because it's no longer needed
02:44 autrijus but you can always use
02:45 Alias_ "You can use $self:, but the invocant is also at 'o' still
02:45 autrijus    my $self := o;
02:45 autrijus oh sure!
02:45 autrijus o always works.
02:45 Alias_ ugh ugh
02:45 autrijus even if you say
02:45 Alias_ I'd be cool without making them do 'my $self := o;'
02:45 autrijus method foo ( $inv1, $inv2 : $arg1, $arg2 ) {...}
02:46 autrijus $inv1 is still known as o
02:46 autrijus there's no way around that short of redefining &*o.
02:46 Alias_ my point is that is we are going to do 'o', lets REALLY do it
02:46 autrijus yes. yes. I 100%, no, 1oo% agree
02:46 Alias_ It's this "have your cake and eat it too" smell that mod_perl created that I hate
02:46 autrijus totally.
02:47 Alias_ "You can name the invocant anything you like, but it's o, even if you name it something else"
02:47 autrijus care to post this two points to p6l?
02:47 autrijus I need to run to $work now
02:47 autrijus Alias_: very well put.
02:47 chip um, in    method foo ($x)    is $x the invocant or not?
02:47 autrijus chip: no. it is the arg.
02:47 Alias_ no, it's an arg
02:47 chip OK
02:47 autrijus method foo ($inv: $x)
02:47 autrijus the : separates inv with arg
02:47 Alias_ If you want to name the invocant something other than $_, you use $invocant:
02:48 autrijus except I think it's safe to drop the $_ aliasing now.
02:48 chip So multi method pretty much has to be declared with a ":" somewhere
02:48 Alias_ That's the problem with o
02:48 Alias_ There's multi-invocant methods...
02:49 autrijus o[1] ;)
02:49 * Alias_ cries
02:49 Odin-LAP "have your cake and eat it too" is a defining feature of Perl.
02:49 markstos "Little O notation?"
02:49 chip the invocants should be 'me', 'you', and 'him'
02:49 Alias_ No, TMTOWDTI is the defining feature of Perl
02:49 markstos her?
02:49 autrijus it.refresh;
02:49 chip sub &her := \&him
02:49 Alias_ It's fine to have multiple ways, it's not fine to have multiple ways that are internally inconsistent and confusing
02:49 Odin-LAP Alias_: Pluralism is one, too. There's no single defining feature.
02:50 Odin-LAP ;)
02:50 chip Guys, guys.  Pluralism is only ONE of our values!
02:50 autrijus I thought that feature is "Practical" :)
02:50 Alias_ People can only keep a maximum of 5 things in their heads
02:50 Alias_ Context is a limited resource
02:50 Odin-LAP chip: ;)
02:50 autrijus I can do 7 (9 with caffeine)! :)
02:50 chip The smart monkeys have to stop making tools that the average monkeys can't handle
02:50 Alias_ chip++ # exactly!
02:51 rjbs chip++
02:51 Alias_ It's the idea behind Java and python
02:51 Alias_ Java is C++ that the average monkeys can handle
02:51 Alias_ python is perl that the aeverage monkeys can handle
02:51 rjbs I don't know about that.
02:51 chip >>quotes
02:51 autrijus and guido is proposing to dropping map{} and grep{}
02:51 rjbs The perl that average monkeys can handle is baby talk perl.
02:51 autrijus because avgmonkey can't handle them.
02:51 autrijus not thinking that's the way to go.
02:51 rjbs "We won't laugh at you if you use baby talk." -- Larry
02:52 Alias_ rjbs: Maybe that was a bit extreme
02:52 Alias_ :)
02:52 rjbs as long as baby talk exists, perl is perl
02:52 rjbs well, ok, there's more to it, but. ykwim
02:52 Alias_ Personally, I think that the forcing of second sigils is the same as python, just an odd place to do it
02:52 Alias_ "We are going to force you do something, so you don't forget"
02:53 Alias_ except instead of aligning whitespace, we have to specify whether we want a public or private method
02:53 autrijus you mean $?VAR ?
02:53 autrijus oh. $:foo and $.foo
02:53 rjbs It also expands the range of usefulness of the name itself.
02:53 Alias_ Can you have both?
02:53 Alias_ (btw)
02:53 autrijus sure.
02:53 autrijus then the public accessor does $.foo
02:53 Alias_ oh... that's a bit different then
02:53 rjbs $ and @ in p5 don't just say "scalar" or "array" they also mean you can have a @foo /and/ a $foo, so using 'foo' isn't limited to one
02:53 autrijus you can use both internally.
02:53 rjbs right
02:54 autrijus sometimes they even may be useful.
02:54 Alias_ So now we can have 15 variables with the same name?
02:54 rjbs basically
02:54 Alias_ are there globs still?
02:54 autrijus nope.
02:54 rjbs RIP
02:54 autrijus globs are replaced with :=
02:54 ingy ola
02:54 Alias_ I'm getting scareder and scareder
02:54 rjbs ¡Hola, ingy!
02:55 ingy hi rjbs
02:55 rjbs itym scardeder. :)
02:55 autrijus ola ingy
02:55 Alias_ Huffmanism can be bad
02:55 rjbs Alias_: but "can" and "will" are two different things
02:55 Alias_ There's a reason we don't edit zip files directly
02:55 autrijus nice to see that conway decloaked for kwid
02:56 Alias_ I also don't understand why people don't like $_.method
02:56 autrijus Alias_: the golf force and the biz force is always at a tension. :)
02:56 Alias_ true
02:56 autrijus the challenge is to find the Middle Way
02:57 Alias_ Unfortunately, the attitude of Perl 6 seems to be the biz force have no say
02:57 autrijus because making either side inconvenient means losing lots of things.
02:57 autrijus really. I thought this entire rethink of OO system was done for biz forces :)
02:57 autrijus and rules, for that matter.
02:57 Alias_ true, but the syntax is a golf-only zone
02:58 rjbs So, what's the $_.method controversy that's going on?
02:58 jabbot rjbs: 4100 ¬üª÷ µ¥©ó 127264 ·s¥x¹ô
02:58 autrijus post to p6l more and that could change :)
02:58 rjbs whether .method goes to self or topic?
02:58 Alias_ rjbs: The root problem is that $_ is being used too heavily
02:58 autrijus rjbs: aye. o.method is currently larry's solution
02:59 autrijus gotta go. &
02:59 rjbs autrijus: chau
02:59 Alias_ rjbs: $_ current is both the default $self, and the current map { $_ }
02:59 rjbs oh, that's weird.
02:59 Alias_ s/current/
02:59 dvtoo o. does have the up side of being easier to type ;p
02:59 autrijus dvtoo: that's the force of golf :)
02:59 rjbs where o returns $self?
03:00 Alias_ rjbs: So there's big problems with C< method foo () { map { .method($_) } @list } >
03:00 Alias_ .method is _supposed_ to be used as $self.method, but that only works because $self is $_ by default
03:00 Alias_ And now we are discovering $_ collisions
03:01 dvtoo one of those "obvious in hindsight" sort of things?
03:01 Alias_ dvtoo: We discovered it only once we started porting real world code
03:01 * clkao eyes jabbot
03:01 Alias_ Algorithm::Dependency p6ification threw it up
03:01 rjbs why does .method have to mean $_.method and not $self.method by default?
03:01 Alias_ rjbs: Arbitrary decision
03:01 Alias_ Rule 1
03:01 rjbs given: map { .method($_) } @list
03:01 dvtoo rjbs: that's what I was just thinking
03:02 rjbs I would expect .method to be on $self.  Is there a case where someone thinks I'd intuit the opposite?
03:02 rjbs (or that many other people would)
03:02 Alias_ ta da!
03:02 Alias_ rjbs: Welcome to the universal misconception
03:02 Alias_ It's a newbie trap galore
03:02 Alias_ Everyone has been caught by it
03:03 Alias_ .method, $.attr, $:attr look the same, but arn't the same
03:03 Alias_ For some reason $_.method being .method is more important than $self.method in the current view
03:03 Alias_ For reasons of "huffman"
03:03 rjbs Alias_: I'm wondering, then, if there exist other code snippets where I'd say "obviously it should be $_!" for some non-$self $_
03:04 Alias_ rjbs: map { .something } @list
03:04 Alias_ Is the official position
03:04 rjbs no, in that case I would /still/ expect it to be calling $self.something
03:04 Alias_ Since many more things are now methods, it's not a terrible position
03:04 rjbs and I'd assume that something payed attention to _
03:05 Alias_ In any case, there are only three ways to resolve things
03:05 rjbs I can see the huffmanization value, but personally I expect .method to go back to the object.
03:05 Alias_ me too, duncan too, autrijus too
03:05 dvtoo rjbs: possibly calling $self.something($_)
03:05 Alias_ So anyways, there are three solutions
03:05 Alias_ 1. Ban the use of $_ in map
03:06 rjbs ha
03:06 Alias_ The obviously $not_what_we_want one
03:06 Alias_ Either $self or map {} has to go, so the obvious choice is $self
03:06 Alias_ So $_ retains it's normal role
03:06 Alias_ Which leaves us with...
03:06 Alias_ 2. Force explicit $_.method
03:07 Alias_ 3. Force the invocant to be a specific name
03:08 Alias_ Personally, I'd rather have to do map { $_.method } @list
03:08 rjbs yes, me too
03:08 Alias_ feel free to add the me too to p6l
03:08 Alias_ Unfortunately, Larry's initial choice for an explicit invocant is to NOT make the invocant explicit exactly, but to add another language feature
03:09 Alias_ (unfortunate in my opinion)
03:09 Alias_ So now, rather than a forced $self, we get instead the 'o' function
03:09 Alias_ o.method
03:10 Alias_ Except I think you can still do method foo ($self: ) {}
03:10 Alias_ But o will still exist
03:10 * rjbs sighs, should probably go ahead and subscribe to p6l.
03:10 rjbs one more time sink. :/
03:11 Alias_ I know
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03:30 jabbot pugs - 863 - * Fixed prereq's for Perl5-Kwid
03:30 jabbot pugs - 862 - perl6 refactoring of File::Spec started
03:30 jabbot pugs - 861 - the rough conversion of File::Spec is no
03:30 jabbot pugs - 860 - more File::Spec perl6 conversions; all b
03:30 jabbot pugs - 859 - Refactored the Makefile.PL to be less in
03:30 jabbot pugs - 858 - Fix lightstep's entry.
03:30 jabbot pugs - 857 - * license info; poetry
03:30 jabbot pugs - 856 - * add Dimitry to AUTHORS for Unicode.hs
03:30 metaperl rjbs, you can get p6l via GMANE
03:30 jabbot pugs - 855 - * switch to use Dimitry Golubov's code.
03:30 jabbot pugs - 854 - substr tests
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04:19 stevan metaperl: ping
04:20 metaperl hello...!
04:20 stevan hey
04:20 stevan got a question for the junction master :P
04:20 metaperl heh
04:20 metaperl i will try
04:20 stevan so I am writing some tests for junctions which are bound to a variable
04:20 stevan my $any_of_them = $a | $b | $c;
04:21 metaperl yes
04:21 stevan when I later change the values of $b and $c
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04:21 stevan the junction does not reflect the change
04:21 stevan is that correct? or should the values still be bound to the variables
04:21 metaperl oh, I dont know
04:21 metaperl good question - one for p6l
04:21 stevan yeah I think do
04:22 stevan s/do/so/
04:23 stevan I suppose now I *really* have to subscribe to p6l
04:23 metaperl gmane is fine for posting
04:23 stevan really
04:23 metaperl i posted via gmane
04:23 metaperl yes
04:23 stevan cool
04:23 stevan I get way too much mail anyway
04:29 hcchien hmm...., svk pull failed for pugs repository
04:29 jabbot pugs - 864 - adding some misc. tests for junctions; n
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05:09 jabbot pugs - 865 - more junction tests, this time for the .
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05:19 jabbot pugs - 866 - updating the MANIFEST with the new tests
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06:17 autrijus Alias!
06:17 autrijus Alias_:  http://monster.bulknews.net:46984/search?q=miyagawa&amp;fm=all
06:17 autrijus thanks to you :)
06:18 Alias_ autrijus: What am I looking at?
06:18 autrijus a PPI-powered cross referenced CPAN search.
06:18 Alias_ ooooo
06:19 autrijus miyagawa's baby.
06:19 Alias_ written by you?
06:19 Alias_ ah
06:19 Alias_ I should get him a commit bit for the sf.net project
06:19 _metaperl has joined #perl6
06:19 obra relation to cpanxr?
06:20 autrijus prolly not.
06:20 autrijus this one is crosslang I think
06:20 Alias_ CPANXR is massively bit-rotted
06:20 Alias_ Like everything else pre-0.900
06:20 Alias_ oop, and now it's down
06:20 Alias_ I mighta killed it?
06:21 autrijus no, he just put up a while for us to see :)
06:21 autrijus needs more work
06:21 Alias_ ah
06:21 autrijus will be a lightning talk in YAPC::Tapei about that.
06:21 autrijus Taipei, even
06:21 Alias_ If he has any functions to extract useful values from individual classes, they need to be merged up into PPI
06:22 Alias_ That was CPANXR's problem
06:22 stevan I get way too much mail anyway
06:22 Alias_ A lot of it's code needed to be sucked back in
06:22 autrijus stevan: hi :)
06:22 stevan autrijus: hello
06:22 Alias_ autrijus: Ask miyagawa is he's able to tell how many times $self->method is done in CPAN compated to $_->method
06:23 autrijus heh. :)
06:23 Alias_ autrijus: So I can convince people that .method as $self.method is a more optimal huffman coding, as well as being more $what_people_expect
06:23 stevan its what I would expect
06:24 Alias_ autrijus: And stevan makes 100% expectation
06:24 Alias_ still...
06:24 Alias_ It's what EVERYONE expects .method to do at first
06:24 Alias_ plus, I have nightmares about people porting o.method code to use explicit invocants because it removes an additional function call and will be slightly faster
06:24 Alias_ :)
06:25 autrijus uh.
06:25 autrijus it's compile time optimized away.
06:26 autrijus please don't microoptimize :)
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06:27 stevan autrijus: what determines what $junction.pick chooses from a junction? is it just random?
06:27 autrijus or pseudorandom.
06:27 autrijus but it's "implementatino specific".
06:27 stevan ah
06:28 Alias_ So on a quantum process the results will be different
06:28 Alias_ processir
06:28 Alias_ ugh
06:31 stevan BTW: this does bad things
06:31 stevan pugs -e 'any(1 .. Inf).pick'
06:31 Alias_ heh... don't tell me you can do infinite junctions?
06:31 stevan :P
06:31 autrijus you can.
06:31 autrijus and it works until you call pick()
06:31 Alias_ That is going to cause some unbelievably evil corner cases
06:31 autrijus Alias_: no. infinite data structures is a feature.
06:31 Alias_ infinite loops, infinite threads
06:31 autrijus it's something perl lacks.
06:32 autrijus I'm glad that perl6 has it :)
06:32 autrijus you won't "accidentally" get 1..Inf
06:32 autrijus unless you type 1..Inf.
06:32 stevan Alias_: pugs -e 'any(1 .. Inf).pick' is clearly insane, so I doubt it will come up much
06:32 Alias_ But imagine C<        my $foo = any(1 .. Inf); $foo >>+=<< 1 ;     >
06:33 autrijus Alias_: that works.
06:33 autrijus and with luck, in constant time too :)
06:33 autrijus "Perl 6 is so fast it can run infinite loops in constant time"
06:33 Alias_ or C<        my $foo = any(1 .. Inf); $foo >>*= 2<< ; print "Hello World\n" if $foo % 2;    >
06:33 autrijus ugh.
06:33 autrijus that will take infinite time.
06:34 stevan Alias_: pugs -e 'any(1 .. Inf).pick' is clearly insane, so I doubt it will come up much
06:34 stevan bah
06:34 stevan wrong window
06:34 Alias_ Like I said... way too many corner cases...
06:34 autrijus Alias_: so "don't do that".
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06:34 autrijus you get the same problem with
06:34 autrijus any(1..1e999)
06:34 autrijus anyway.
06:34 Alias_ autrijus: But imagine I write a function that takes arbitrary juntions and does things to them
06:34 autrijus failing to see why Inf is somehow worse.
06:34 autrijus did I miss something?
06:35 Alias_ Anything anywhere that takes junctions as params will have to do evil checking
06:35 Alias_ because it will be way too easy to fall into infinite loop traps
06:35 autrijus what is broken about Inf that is not broken about 1e999?
06:35 autrijus 1e999 might as well be infinite loop.
06:36 Alias_ I guess similar issues apply
06:36 autrijus well then. ;)
06:36 Alias_ I guess perl is going to have to know which actions on junctions will be infinite, and then throw exceptions
06:36 Alias_ As for 1e999, maybe that is actually needed
06:36 Alias_ And you are running it on a Sun grid
06:37 autrijus right.
06:37 Alias_ Anyways, Inf math in juntions worries me
06:37 Alias_ Hell, lots of things about Perl 6 worry me :(
06:37 Alias_ I don't want an academic language :(
06:38 Alias_ (Big Design By Unqualified Committee Upfront)--
06:38 autrijus right.
06:38 autrijus that's what pugs comes in, though.
06:39 Alias_ If there's sufficient application of Rule 2
06:39 autrijus allowing noncomittee people to fix language design by experimenting.
06:39 autrijus oh I'm sure.
06:39 autrijus since Pugs arrived, there has been numerous cases of Rule 2.
06:39 autrijus I lost count already.
06:39 Alias_ oh good
06:40 Khisanth seems like a rather "practical" way to design
06:40 Alias_ "Design by testing"
06:40 autrijus yeah. really, larry has always said that apocalypse is just a first draft
06:40 autrijus everything is subject to change once implementation starts.
06:40 autrijus the core semantics probably stays the same
06:41 autrijus but most syntax and prim can change
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06:42 Alias_ It would be nice if File::Spec changed :)
06:42 Alias_ That thing is monstrously slow
06:43 Alias_ running reges over and over and over again
06:43 Alias_ half-assed interface
06:43 stevan Alias_: what are you envisioing?
06:43 mugwump fix it!
06:43 autrijus Path::Class?
06:43 Alias_ stevan: I've got a couple of toys
06:43 stevan the problem is it has soo much cross platform knowledge hidden in there
06:44 Alias_ What I really want is FSI
06:44 stevan FSI?
06:44 Alias_ FileSystem Interface
06:44 Alias_ DBI for read or virtual filesystems
06:44 Alias_ s/read/real/
06:44 stevan DBD::FileSys
06:44 Alias_ I must have implemented bastardised inline versions 5 or 6 times
06:44 Alias_ I don't want a database
06:45 Alias_ I want a file read/write interface
06:45 autrijus Path::Class?
06:45 Alias_ "in the style of DBI"
06:45 stevan I think Path::Class just wraps File::Spec, but the interface is better
06:45 autrijus I don't quite care it wraps what :)
06:45 autrijus as long as the interface is better.
06:45 autrijus for crazy api, see IO::All
06:46 clkao and is tested.
06:46 stevan Alias_: what do you mean by "in the style of DBI"
06:46 Alias_ The current "doing stuff with files" functionality is almost all in core language
06:46 Alias_ -f
06:46 Alias_ open
06:46 Alias_ etc etc
06:47 Alias_ There's some improvements on getting more OO for a single file
06:47 Alias_ But not for an entire filesystem
06:47 mugwump Alias_: s/FSI/VFS/, I think
06:47 autrijus File::Find::Rule?
06:47 Alias_ mugwump: Yeah, same idea
06:47 Alias_ File::Find::Rule is just a rule system
06:47 clkao 04:17  * ayrnieu gives up on getting svk installed.
06:47 clkao 04:33 < ayrnieu> er, OK.  Neither svk nor darcs want to cooperate.  Game over.
06:47 clkao this is so 2004.
06:48 Alias_ I want to be able to $output->writefile( 'some/output/path', $content )
06:48 clkao i thought they are both packaged here and there. no?
06:48 Alias_ And not have to care if is a local filesystem or a memory object, or WebDAV or something completely different
06:48 clkao that's in the test library of svk.
06:48 clkao and append_file.
06:48 autrijus Alias_: er, I think IO::all works.
06:48 clkao oh, then io::all
06:48 autrijus Alias_: IO::All does all that and more :)
06:49 Alias_ IO::All can output to an in-memory Archive::Builder object?
06:49 autrijus sure if you write a plugin
06:49 autrijus that's the whole point.
06:49 autrijus see IO::All::SMB
06:49 Alias_ There is of course the problem of IO::All being a hideous interface for structured programming
06:49 jabbot pugs - 867 - junction example to illustrate the pseud
06:49 autrijus or ::SSH, or ::LWP
06:49 gaal Alias_: IO::All can implement a webserver in a one-liner. With CGI.
06:49 Alias_ Great for shorthand IO
06:49 autrijus Alias_: you can ignore the shorthand.
06:49 autrijus and use all method calls
06:49 Alias_ Regardless, IO::All is a monster :)
06:50 autrijus gaal: yeah, that was my code :)
06:50 gaal autrijus++
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06:51 Alias_ Does IO::All have a ->can_create method?
06:52 Khisanth clkao: apparently subversion on openbsd doesn't want to install the perl bindings
06:52 clkao i though someone made a prot
06:52 clkao port
06:52 gaal is there something like ccache for haskell?
06:53 Khisanth clkao: he said it didn't install them even with the options for perl enabled
06:53 Alias_ autrijus: I guess I just don't trust IO::All not to do something overly magic and go ape on me :)
06:53 gaal IO::All? Magic? Nahh.
06:54 Alias_ Plus there the whole Spiffy thing...
06:54 Alias_ (which I refuse to use based on it's name alone) :)
06:54 gaal probably less need for it in p6
06:54 Alias_ I hope so
06:55 autrijus gaal: hm? haskell on -O and up uses gcc
06:55 Alias_ I still can't work out what you actually DO with Spiffy
06:55 autrijus gaal: so. same thing
06:55 autrijus Alias_: Spiffy is just a OO dialect for p5.
06:55 autrijus it's not a tool module, it's a dialect module
06:55 Alias_ and one that my brain can't grok
06:55 Alias_ Anyways... I'll wait for VFS
06:55 autrijus it's all internal anyway :)
06:56 stevan nite all
06:56 gaal autrijus, so perl Makefile.PL CC=ccache\ gcc should work? Cool.
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06:57 autrijus no, you have to tell GHC too
06:57 gaal errr, yes
06:57 autrijus need additional -pgmc -O~
06:57 autrijus I mean -pgmc -O
06:57 autrijus -pgmc ccache -O
06:57 autrijus -pgmc ccache -via-c
06:57 autrijus either of the two above.
06:58 autrijus mad golfer is again tarpitted
07:00 gaal autrijus, what's a clean way to communicate to ghc i want this? I want to add it to Makefile.PL, optionally of course.
07:01 autrijus I don't quite know. hrm
07:01 autrijus maybe hack "make optimized"
07:01 autrijus or hack "make ccache"
07:01 autrijus makefile not my forte
07:02 gaal well, it's not really important, and yeah, make is !@#. a clean build is two wall minutes on my linux box, though, so i thought i'd get some cheap speedup.
07:02 gaal then again the tests are way slower than that, so it's not worth a lot of effort.
07:07 gaal autrijus, are you using mingw? do tests run ok for you there? i am using a path /c/wks/pugs, and make works, but make test somehow gets c wks/pugs into INC instead.
07:08 autrijus I'm not using mingw.
07:08 gaal symlinks don't work in mingw, it seems ln -s is just an alias to cp :(
07:08 gaal activeperl?
07:08 autrijus was on AP
07:08 autrijus on freebsd now
07:08 autrijus so I suspect win32 support may suffer :)
07:09 hlen autrijus, i just want to say your journal rocks.. it's great to have something to read about pugs everyday
07:09 gaal ;)    i have two machines, and the faster one runs windows, so i'm tempted to use that.
07:11 autrijus hide: thanks =)
07:11 autrijus spready the word! etc
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07:11 autrijus s/y// even
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07:18 crysflame autrijus++
07:18 autrijus mad golfer rescued.
07:19 jabbot pugs - 868 - * single colon following varname should
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07:22 gaal what is PERLRUN and why is it undef on my mingw? (causing the build to fail)?
07:22 hoowa has quit IRC ()
07:23 gaal ah, looking at MM docs
07:23 autrijus hm. change it to PERL in Makefile.PL ?
07:23 autrijus may be an old EU::MM
07:23 autrijus I can see change it to PERL
07:24 gaal yes, that helped. can i commit or is there a chance i broke someing for other folks?
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07:26 autrijus commit it please.
07:31 gaal done (whew, having to use svn from cygwin sure is confusing)
07:31 autrijus gaal++
07:32 gaal thanks :) it's just a  3*3 character patch :)
07:32 autrijus but it works :)
07:33 gaal it does that, yes :)
07:33 b6s has joined #perl6
07:33 autrijus say 'Your lottery numbers are: ' ~ join('-', @your_numbers);
07:33 autrijus may I change this to
07:33 autrijus say "Your lottery numbers are: { join('-', @your_numbers) }";
07:33 autrijus ?
07:33 gaal now to figure out why "make test" doesn't
07:33 autrijus hrm, stevan is gone.
07:34 Alias_ well... there goes another character we have to escape in quotes
07:34 Alias_ And add one more newbie trap :)
07:34 autrijus Alias_: but that makes @{[]}
07:34 autrijus unneccessary.
07:34 autrijus so, net win, by any count.
07:35 Alias_ @{[]}?
07:35 gaal i get dirty looks everytime i have to explain *that*.
07:35 autrijus previously in perl5 if you want to interpolate a method call.
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07:35 Alias_ oh
07:35 autrijus you have to write @{[]} or ${\()}
07:35 Alias_ WELL DON'T DO THAT
07:35 Alias_ :)
07:35 autrijus I want to interpolate method calls!
07:35 autrijus lots of people want that!
07:35 Alias_ true
07:36 autrijus so, easy things are now easy.
07:36 Alias_ So now "" is closer to being a templating language than ever before
07:36 autrijus riiight.
07:36 autrijus fun eh.
07:36 Alias_ In fact... we should be able to do something ...
07:36 Alias_ hmm...
07:37 Alias_ Take .html, wrap it in "" and eval
07:37 Alias_ instant templating system
07:37 Alias_ or maybe convert <% %> to { } and escape $ and @ first
07:38 Alias_ The world's most dangerous one line templating system
07:38 * Alias_ bows
07:38 Darren_Duncan I just did a svn update and got an error
07:38 Darren_Duncan svn: Failed to add file 'src/Unicode.hs': object of the same name already exists
07:38 Alias_ I'm calling it IPSP
07:38 Alias_ Insane Perl Server Pages
07:38 Darren_Duncan should I just delete the old file, or is this a problem?
07:38 gaal i have a feeling PERL6LIB isn't being honored on mingw :(
07:38 autrijus Darren_Duncan: rm that.
07:38 Alias_ Darren_Duncan: You on Win32?
07:39 Darren_Duncan I'm on Mac OS X
07:39 Darren_Duncan it is case-insensitive
07:39 Darren_Duncan but case preserving
07:39 Darren_Duncan by default
07:39 autrijus rm that and svn up :)
07:39 Darren_Duncan I can use an alternate filesystem that is case sensitive if I wanted to
07:39 jabbot pugs - 870 - * use {} interpolation.
07:39 jabbot pugs - 869 - PERLRUN => PERL fixes build on mingw
07:39 autrijus Darren_Duncan: no, that won't help. :)
07:39 gaal you can say "incasitive" for "case insentitive"
07:39 autrijus Unicode.hs is now part of repo, not generated
07:39 Darren_Duncan I won't anyway, I'll just rm and up
07:39 gaal and "casitivity" in general
07:40 autrijus you can say "case caring", "case understanding", "case empathetic" too
07:40 gaal case indifferent?
07:41 autrijus "alternatively case-capable"
07:41 Darren_Duncan all fixed now
07:41 gaal case closed?
07:41 autrijus cool
07:42 Darren_Duncan to be specific, the HFS+ filesystem as it has been used in the past will not store multiple files in the same directory that have the same names when brought to the same latin letter case
07:42 Darren_Duncan HFS+ can be made case-sensitive like typical unix systems, but that isn't the way it is typically installed
07:43 gaal @INC isn't updated with PERL6LIB on mingw. any hints on where i begin to fix that?
07:43 autrijus gaal: ghc 6.4?
07:43 gaal uh, i have both actually, let me check which one runs
07:44 gaal 6.4, yes
07:46 autrijus 6.4 breaks and 6.2 runs?
07:46 autrijus or vice versa?
07:46 Darren_Duncan I have an idea for a possible syntax change for references to attributes ...
07:46 autrijus oh?
07:46 gaal 6.4 doesn't honor it, let me check with 6.2
07:46 Darren_Duncan ... when using the longer form of $self.attr
07:47 Darren_Duncan I'm thinking something like $self.$:foo, $self.@:bar, $self.%:baz
07:47 Darren_Duncan this mirrors the shorter forms of $:foo etc
07:48 Darren_Duncan that way, the appropriate sigils for the variable type are always the same regardless of whether you are in short form or long form
07:48 autrijus but but that kills the occasinoally useful idiom of
07:48 autrijus $obj->$method
07:48 autrijus in p5
07:48 gaal (we need a t/run/ -- though in this case it wouldn't help because the tests won't even run)
07:48 gaal no, 6.2.2 doesn't work with PERL6LIB either
07:48 autrijus :(
07:49 gaal actually
07:49 gaal maybe make test is masking it.
07:49 Darren_Duncan sometimes I wonder why we bother to have @ or % at all, and don't just use $ for everything
07:49 autrijus Darren_Duncan: context hinters.
07:49 wilx Whee!
07:49 Darren_Duncan since very often arrays and hashes are only referenced with $ sigils anyway
07:49 autrijus but yes, sigilless variant is a possible dialect.
07:49 wilx I get some warning from GCC while compiling pugs.
07:49 autrijus and very possible from perl6 already
07:49 autrijus see t/Dialects/
07:49 wilx ghc6456.hc:1120: warning: implicit declaration of function `stg_hack_u_iswdigit'
07:49 gaal sorry sorry, it wasn't apugs bug, it's apparently in the rule for 'make test'.
07:49 autrijus oh ok.
07:50 autrijus wilx: platform?
07:50 wilx WinXP, GHC 6.4
07:50 Darren_Duncan yes, hinters are all nice at all ...
07:50 Darren_Duncan but say $self.abc doesn't tell you what abc is
07:50 autrijus sure. the hinting is for RHS of = and :=
07:50 autrijus not for anything else.
07:51 autrijus still, that alone may be valuable enough.
07:51 Darren_Duncan sure, you could do @:abc if its in the current object, but what if your method is dealing with two objects of the same class; the second one always has to be of the longer form to work at all
07:51 Darren_Duncan and that has nothing but $ ... not too helpful
07:51 Alias_ It does seem like some of Perl 6's complexity is backfiring
07:51 Darren_Duncan so the hints that @ and % are supposed to give can only be used maybe half of the time
07:52 autrijus sure.
07:53 autrijus larry said himself that if his native tongue is chinese
07:53 autrijus there won't be sigils.
07:53 autrijus and indeed I promised perlchina a sigilless dialect some day on perl 6 :)
07:53 autrijus (dialect = lexical module that affects parsing)
07:53 Darren_Duncan The main use I have for sigils is separating variables from methods/sub calls
07:53 autrijus aye.
07:53 Darren_Duncan it doesn't matter what type of var it is
07:54 autrijus but then we can go the ruby route
07:54 Darren_Duncan so a plain old $ is all I need
07:54 autrijus and use sigil for scope hinters.
07:54 autrijus which actually makes ~lots of sense.
07:54 autrijus secondary sigil is a compromise
07:54 autrijus to preserve both context sigils (1st) and scope sigils (2nd)
07:54 autrijus it may or may not work out.
07:54 Alias_ How does sigils screw up chinese?
07:55 autrijus Alias_: chinese has no plural form.
07:55 Alias_ And that is a problem because?
07:55 Alias_ @foo is illogical?
07:55 autrijus yup.
07:55 autrijus the brain just doesn't work that way.
07:55 Alias_ So how does Chinese deal with the concept of many?
07:55 autrijus list $foo
07:56 autrijus basically.
07:56 Alias_ map/grep/sort must be really icky then
07:56 autrijus i.e. it is a prefix or suffix, not part of the noun
07:56 Alias_ Maybe that's why guido is killing them
07:56 autrijus heh no :)
07:56 autrijus guido was killing them because they are lambdas.
07:57 Alias_ Time to act like a professor and tell Mr Symbolic concept here what that means
07:57 Alias_ I probably know what it is
07:57 Alias_ Just not the definitions
07:59 autrijus I gotta run :)
07:59 autrijus bbiab
08:01 Darren_Duncan In a re-reading of S02, it says that the use of @ or % vars in a scalar context automatically produces a reference ...
08:01 Darren_Duncan Was it decided for sure whether 'return' gives a scalar context or a list context?
08:02 autrijus it propagates context of caller.
08:02 autrijus same as p5.
08:02 autrijus &
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08:08 Darren_Duncan is that a good idea?
08:11 Darren_Duncan Autrijus, thanks for your answer.  I guess that is a good idea, and so I have no more questions.
08:12 Darren_Duncan I think I know now how to handle whatever I need to do.
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08:49 jabbot pugs - 871 - Two Locale::KeyedText updates: 1. Remove
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08:50 Darren_Duncan I think with this new change my attr/arg/var declarations will be more like the format that most people use
08:50 Darren_Duncan re the checkin
08:50 Darren_Duncan most of the 'is' are gone now
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08:52 Darren_Duncan I'm also doing "return [@abc[]];" to explicitly make a ref containing a copy of the flattened list variable in my getter methods; I think that is actually correct syntax for once
08:53 Juerd Ehm
08:53 Juerd Isn't that just [@abc]?
08:56 Darren_Duncan perhaps
08:56 Darren_Duncan Actually, the [] suffix was for flattening in a scalar context
08:56 Darren_Duncan The question is whether the surrounding [] creates a list context or not
08:57 gaal in p5 it does
08:57 Darren_Duncan So, in Perl 6, how do you create a new array ref containing a single-element that is a reference to @abc?
08:57 gaal [ \@abc ] doesn't work?
08:58 Darren_Duncan What synopsis mentions \ ?
08:58 Darren_Duncan checking ...
08:58 gaal that's p5 syntax, but i think it should work there too.
09:00 Darren_Duncan S03 seems to mention \ once, at the start of "List Flattening", so I'll take what you said as being right
09:00 Darren_Duncan for some reason, I've been thrown for a loop this last week
09:01 Darren_Duncan all caught up with the idea that Perl 6 removes distinctions between refs and non-refs
09:01 gaal [roo@sike:~/src/pugs 127] > ./pugs -e 'my @abc = (1,2,3); [\@abc].perl.say'
09:01 gaal (1, 2, 3)
09:01 gaal doesn't look too hot.
09:01 Darren_Duncan I think I'll take a step back and assume that anything in perl 5 is valid syntax unless I explicitly know otherwise
09:01 Darren_Duncan so, issuing a correction ...
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09:07 Darren_Duncan correction committed
09:08 Darren_Duncan now it says "return [@abc];", or more specifically, "return [$self.abc];"
09:09 jabbot pugs - 872 - LKT - Yet Another Get Method Fix
09:16 Darren_Duncan goodnite
09:16 gaal night
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09:34 metaperl marcus, are you a Catalyst user/author?
09:34 marcus nope
09:34 metaperl oh, different marcus
09:35 marcus might be
09:35 metaperl Marcus Ramberg
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10:14 dada has joined #perl6
10:14 dada hola
10:15 gaal hello, dada
10:18 masak hi, dada
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10:59 clkao http://www.guruischool.com/index.jsp?s=google&amp;sw=perl_tg&amp;p=getLesson.jsp?catid=C3-3-29
10:59 clkao hmm perl courses
10:59 Jonathan_ autrijus: I got my account, thanks for the invite. ASCII hyper-ops are in.
11:04 metaperl stevan, ping?
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11:21 autrijus Jonathan_: yay!
11:21 autrijus Jonathan++
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11:22 gaal autrijus, hey. i traced the mingw 'make test' problem to things in ext/ not installing into blib6, but rather to their own ../../blib, but i don't know why this is. maybe because i'm using mingw's perl5.6 and its old makemaker?
11:23 autrijus that may be the case.
11:23 autrijus what version of MM did you have?
11:23 INFOTHEK has joined #perl6
11:23 gaal 5.45
11:24 gaal unfortunately i had no luck building a 5.8 of my own under mingw
11:24 autrijus hrm.
11:25 autrijus try upgrading MM?
11:25 gaal on the linux box ther's 6.15, which is reasonably new; also perl 5.8 and no problems.
11:25 autrijus if only just to make sure it's MM prob
11:25 gaal well, the windows box dosn't like CPAN
11:25 gaal so installing modules that have deps is a royal pain
11:25 gaal i'll try and get to it.
11:26 autrijus nice.
11:27 gaal however, lunch with friends and later family stuff, so ta ta for now!
11:30 autrijus :)
11:30 autrijus enjoy
11:30 gaal thanks! bye.
11:30 * gaal &
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11:38 autrijus slurp() is in.
11:38 autrijus mad golfer++
11:45 jabbot pugs - 875 - * slurp() primitive
11:45 jabbot pugs - 874 - Add me to the AUTHORS file.
11:45 jabbot pugs - 873 - Add ASCII versions of hyper operators an
11:47 theorbtwo Woo, somebody actually added themselves to the AUTHORS file so I don't have to!
11:49 Jonathan_ :)
11:50 autrijus =)
11:51 autrijus so, I'm devoting the rest of tonight hacking thunking in
11:51 autrijus that will make := actually work.
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12:01 INFOTHEK jzst installed Pugs, really great, congrats to all of you! :)
12:01 INFOTHEK but know i will own this channel
12:01 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:02 INFOTHEK PING
12:02 INFOTHEK FINGER
12:02 INFOTHEK FINGER
12:02 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:03 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:03 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:03 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:03 INFOTHEK VERSION
12:03 INFOTHEK flood
12:03 * INFOTHEK he
12:03 INFOTHEK XXX
12:03 INFOTHEK GOTO google.com/!!!
12:03 INFOTHEK CRSH
12:03 INFOTHEK CRASH
12:03 INFOTHEK PING
12:03 theorbtwo INFOTHEK, could you please stop that?
12:03 INFOTHEK no i wont muahaha
12:04 INFOTHEK cu guys, youz atre lrella leet
12:05 ChanServ sets mode: +o autrijus
12:05 INFOTHEK was kicked by autrijus (one and the only warning.)
12:06 autrijus thank you.
12:06 autrijus was wondering how long it will be from the slashdotting to this.
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12:20 autrijus sets mode: -o autrijus
12:23 nothingmuch hola!
12:23 autrijus yo!
12:23 nothingmuch give me something to do
12:23 nothingmuch i feel unused
12:24 nothingmuch and have been thusly all week
12:24 theorbtwo Hey, nothingmuch!
12:24 nothingmuch hola, theorbtwo
12:27 Khisanth nothingmuch: convert all of CPAN :p
12:27 nothingmuch Khisanth: beh
12:28 nothingmuch but ok
12:28 autrijus hey nothingmuch.
12:28 nothingmuch a bit at a time
12:28 autrijus there is some unexpected successes from tests. unTODO them? :)
12:28 autrijus if you are looking at src/ side, may implement given/when? :)
12:28 nothingmuch given? ook... do we have smartmatch?
12:28 autrijus also, what about the cataloging script?
12:29 autrijus the stubbed one, sure
12:29 autrijus just use App "&infix:~~"
12:29 nothingmuch beh
12:29 nothingmuch what needs to be done to the catalogging script?
12:29 nothingmuch i'll untodo
12:29 nothingmuch then catalog
12:29 nothingmuch then do some cpan
12:29 autrijus :)
12:29 autrijus I need dinner.
12:29 autrijus will be back in abit
12:29 nothingmuch and then maybe we can talk about given ;-)
12:31 * nothingmuch puts on the Hair soundtrack
12:39 iblechbot has joined #perl6
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12:50 lwhsu_ has joined #perl6
12:53 nothingmuch Makefile:54: *** missing separator.  Stop.
12:53 nothingmuch anybody getting this?
12:53 alexe has joined #perl6
12:53 nothingmuch latest EU::MM
12:53 nothingmuch rhel 3 linux, stock perl (probably the problem)
12:56 autrijus what is line 54?
12:56 nothingmuch ^sit$
12:56 nothingmuch there's lots of completely screwed up lines elsewhere,
12:56 nothingmuch partial strings
12:56 nothingmuch VAR = foo'
12:57 nothingmuch and so on and so forth
12:57 nothingmuch and it has worked before
12:57 autrijus that is completely mangled.
12:57 autrijus clean and make again?
12:58 nothingmuch rm -rf pugs
12:58 nothingmuch complete fresh svn co
12:58 nothingmuch still persists
12:58 autrijus that is the main Makefile?
12:58 autrijus put it somewhere I can d/l?
12:58 nothingmuch all 3
12:58 nothingmuch main, ext/{Test,Pugs-MakeMaker}
12:59 nothingmuch hold on, i'll find the R which broke it
12:59 nothingmuch svn trackdown would be fun
13:01 * autrijus fed the nontrolls on /.
13:01 autrijus mad golfer++
13:01 autrijus # http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=440685
13:02 nothingmuch what is the latest revision?
13:03 autrijus r876?
13:03 nothingmuch ok
13:03 nothingmuch thanks
13:04 autrijus np
13:05 nothingmuch appearantly it starts at r860
13:05 nothingmuch wait, no
13:06 nothingmuch 859
13:08 lwhsu has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:08 autrijus "Refactored the Makefile.PL to be less insane.
13:08 autrijus "
13:08 autrijus not very surprising :-/
13:08 nothingmuch hah
13:08 autrijus care to track it down a little?
13:09 nothingmuch i don't know mm
13:09 nothingmuch what would it constitute doing?
13:10 gaal heavy drinking.
13:10 nothingmuch . o O ( peace! flowers! freedom! happiness! )
13:10 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
13:10 nothingmuch gaal: uhm
13:10 gaal *beads* flowers freedom happiness
13:10 nothingmuch oi vey
13:10 autrijus nothingmuch: first post your Makefile?
13:10 nothingmuch i always heard it as 'peace'
13:10 nothingmuch oh, right, autrijus
13:10 nothingmuch oh well, you learn something new every day =)
13:11 nothingmuch gaal++
13:11 * gaal too is doing mm stuff now (mingw)
13:11 gaal though apparently i managed to break my sysem mm install while upgrading to the latest version :(
13:12 gaal what provides prove? i don't have it?
13:12 gaal test::simple?
13:12 nothingmuch gaal: Test::Harness or a newish perl
13:12 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Makefile
13:13 gaal thanks, nuffin.
13:13 marcus has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
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13:13 gaal oh, *crap*, now i can't install anything because i b0rked my mm!
13:14 nothingmuch haha
13:14 gaal here comes the perl reinstall, which means an msys reinstall because it's not packaged seperately :()
13:14 nothingmuch why? just copy mm.pm from someone else
13:14 nothingmuch get it sort of working
13:14 nothingmuch and then reinstall it to be sure
13:15 nothingmuch and put your working copy in $PERL5LIB next time ;-)
13:15 autrijus nono
13:15 nothingmuch plus, i think eu::mm bootstraps
13:15 autrijus MakeMaker can installt iself
13:15 autrijus you don't need old MM to install a new MM.
13:15 nothingmuch mb does that, that much I know
13:15 gaal autrijus, does PAR still want a pure perl deflate?
13:15 autrijus gaal: we got one.
13:15 autrijus too slow to be useful.
13:16 autrijus not sure that it can be made faster.
13:16 autrijus the goal now has shifted to push Compress::Zlib into core.
13:16 autrijus rgs: is it core? will it be core? :)
13:16 gaal perl6 should definetely come with par
13:16 autrijus gaal: try pugscc?
13:16 * nothingmuch implemented LZW in perl once
13:16 masak has joined #perl6
13:16 autrijus it is my par in perl6 :)
13:16 nothingmuch to try and understand what it does
13:16 rgs autrijus: need to ping kane about this.
13:16 rgs he's busy with real work currently.
13:17 autrijus oh? he's supposed to come up with patches?
13:17 nothingmuch gaal: i think par type behavior is planned to be taken care of by parrot jiting code
13:17 autrijus okie.
13:17 nothingmuch packaged by the compiler
13:17 autrijus nothingmuch: actually no... dependency scanning
13:17 rgs but yes, there are chances Compress::Zlib will be core in 5.9.2
13:17 autrijus is still something that needs to be done
13:17 CDybedahl has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
13:17 gaal i <3 par not necesarily because it gives an entry point
13:17 autrijus and there's no easy way to scan it without user annotations etc.
13:17 gaal "self contained exec"...
13:18 nothingmuch who was it that added ascii hyper?
13:18 gaal typically i have a reasonable perl, but i'm missing modules
13:18 autrijus nothingmuch: Jonathan
13:18 Jonathan_ nothingmuch: Me...
13:18 Jonathan_ I broke something, huh?
13:19 nothingmuch no, just mentioning thanks in the ci log =)
13:19 gaal par's a boon for deployment
13:19 nothingmuch oh crap
13:19 autrijus thank-you. I'm so happy that Alan Stewart has been taking care of PAR when I'm massively distracted.
13:19 nothingmuch puter upstairs is broken
13:19 autrijus I'm supposed to get PAR 0.80 out by now :-/
13:19 * nothingmuch has to go fix... ciao!
13:19 autrijus but. well.
13:19 gaal yeah :)
13:20 Jonathan_ Ah, phew. I really should learn Haskell properly at some point...
13:23 Jonathan_ Dropped by the college library hoping to find a useful book about it...alas, it's all ML (what they use here to teach functional programming). :-|
13:24 autrijus ML is fine :)
13:24 autrijus ML knowledge transfers ~80% to haskell.
13:24 gaal anyone else get this with recent r?
13:24 gaal
13:24 gaal src/Internals.hs:1:0:
13:24 gaal    Warning: `readFile' is imported more than once:
13:24 gaal               imported from System.IO at src/Internals.hs:69:54-61
13:24 gaal               imported from Prelude at Implicit import declaration
13:25 gaal Yay! 'make test' works with mingw/msys + latest test::harness + MM
13:25 autrijus 6.2?
13:25 gaal 6.4
13:26 autrijus gah. readFile is prelude.
13:26 gaal (some other warnings as well, let me paste them all)
13:26 autrijus no, way
13:26 autrijus err
13:26 autrijus no, wait
13:26 autrijus typo :p
13:26 gaal :)
13:26 Jonathan_ Yeah, I have 'em too.  Righty, time for me to go out and enjoy the sun before it all disappears.
13:26 cls_bsd has joined #perl6
13:27 autrijus gaal: try r878
13:28 gaal looks better
13:28 gaal autrijus++
13:28 jabbot has joined #perl6
13:28 gaal can we add a conditional requirement on a new MM for mingw in Makefile,PL? or just add it to the release notes?
13:30 gaal alternatively: maybe the new MM requirement isn't only on mingw. anyone else here with an old perl care to try?
13:30 autrijus gaal: a cond. req. may be better.
13:30 autrijus build_requires()
13:30 autrijus may be better
13:30 jabbot pugs - 878 - * hide duplicate imports
13:30 jabbot pugs - 877 - ASCII hyper ops are now implemented, tha
13:30 jabbot pugs - 876 - Untoto "$label: foo" parse bug
13:32 gaal autrijus, ok
13:33 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
13:34 Limbic_Region kwiki is the brain child of Ingy correct?
13:34 theorbtwo Da.
13:35 gaal "correct" posfix as an alternative to true/yes/so/etc.? :)
13:35 jabbot has joined #perl6
13:35 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~mugwumpjism/journal/23708
13:36 Limbic_Region beats up Kwiki and other wikis pretty bad
13:37 Limbic_Region it does go on to say but ingy made it better
13:40 autrijus when correct { ... }
13:41 autrijus I think yes() makes most sense so far.
13:41 * theorbtwo wants ?all(...)
13:41 gaal I made by with !! in p5...
13:42 gaal or am i missing the point? is this like a cast to bool in java?
13:42 autrijus gaal: ? in p6 is !! in p5
13:42 autrijus but ! has not()
13:42 autrijus so ? has... yes()
13:43 autrijus or so(), or true(), or whatever
13:43 gaal ah, as a differently binding op
13:43 gaal ko
13:43 gaal ESCk0xp
13:43 theorbtwo Also, one that takes a list and requires all of them be that.
13:44 gaal hence ?all(), to2? but then what's the difference?
13:44 theorbtwo That's what I want to know.
13:44 gaal ah :)
13:48 alexe has left
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13:50 gaal so, regarding minimum vesion of EU::MM in build_requires, i'm somewhat arbitrarily depending on the current version in CPAN because that's the only one that worked for me.
13:51 autrijus 6.17 did not work?
13:52 gaal didn't try anything by 5.something that came with my perl 5.6.1 and 6.25 which is the latest. why are you asking about that particular version, autrijus?
13:52 autrijus yes.
13:53 autrijus 6.17 is the version shipped in 58.1.
13:53 autrijus and 5.6.2.
13:53 autrijus so it's the canonical one to target.
13:53 gaal aha. i will not ask how you came to know that. :)
13:53 autrijus Module::CoreList
13:53 autrijus install it
13:53 autrijus corelist -a ExtUtils::MakeMaker
13:54 gaal but i'll test for that one, and if it works, i'll add an unconditional dependency.
13:54 gaal build dep, that is.
13:54 gaal thanks for the tip.
13:59 gaal why do we depend on Test::More? I'm removing that.
13:59 gaal and putting in a build_req for EU::MM 6.17, which indeed works.
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14:06 gaal man, that was a morning's worth of makefile chasing for a one-line fix. :(
14:07 jabbot pugs - 879 - Fix build_requires()
14:14 autrijus we were depending on Test::More because p6's Test.pm was not here :)
14:14 autrijus thanks for spotting it
14:14 autrijus gaal++
14:14 autrijus gaal++
14:14 gaal Test::More is no more :)
14:14 autrijus lol
14:15 xerox has joined #perl6
14:15 autrijus Global symbol "@ARGS" requires explicit package name at Makefile.PL line 8.
14:15 autrijus my brain. :(~~
14:16 gaal uh
14:16 autrijus (not your fault)
14:16 gaal did i
14:16 gaal ok
14:16 gaal s/k/h/
14:16 gaal how does that even happen?
14:16 theorbtwo Forgotten how to think in p5, autrijus?
14:17 gaal @ARGS doesn't require an explicit package name in p5!
14:17 gaal did you try to run it with pugs? :)
14:18 theorbtwo pugs doesn't give that error; that's a stricture error.
14:18 autrijus @ARGV ;)
14:18 theorbtwo Probably because @ARGV is the thing that you're thinking of.
14:18 autrijus gaal: your brain too.
14:18 gaal ah, right :)
14:18 gaal lol
14:18 autrijus brb.
14:18 gaal my cat just made a funny face at me.
14:19 gaal she doesn't make silly mistakes like that, i suppose.
14:19 * autrijus recalls damian's rationalisation for @ARGV and lol some more.
14:19 theorbtwo Hmm?
14:19 autrijus he said that it stands for ARGUMENT
14:20 gaal heh
14:20 autrijus and the roman characters did not have U
14:20 autrijus because it's all carved in stone
14:20 autrijus so it's ARGVMENT
14:20 autrijus in proper old style
14:20 Odin-LAP He's right, you know. ;)
14:20 autrijus sure :)
14:20 Odin-LAP It's just not what you might intuitively expect. :D
14:20 * theorbtwo litteraly laughs out loud.
14:21 gaal it would have to stand for ARGVMENTVM in that case, though.
14:21 autrijus true.
14:21 autrijus mmm language geeks.
14:22 theorbtwo At caltech, BTW, there are several houses, and several hovses.
14:22 theorbtwo The hovses look down on the houses.
14:22 autrijus lol
14:23 gaal "These Romans are crazy"
14:23 autrijus o/~ latin is a dead language / as dead as it can be / first it killed the Romans / now it's killing me o/~
14:24 theorbtwo Just how many languages /do/ you know, autrijus?
14:24 autrijus human languages?
14:24 autrijus surprisingly few. I'm only fluent in Mandarin and English. a bit Holok, a bit German, and that's about it.
14:24 gaal I believe the spelling is now AVTRIIVS, theorb2.
14:25 autrijus attempted to learn a lot of others.
14:25 theorbtwo Oh.
14:25 gaal hey at least you can read Cantonese. <g>
14:26 autrijus gaal: that's like saying you grok MSSQL because you can use DBI::ODBC :)
14:26 gaal exactly
14:27 autrijus DBD::ODBC, even.
14:27 gaal exactlier
14:27 jabbot pugs - 880 - Test.pm writes diagnostics to file speci
14:27 autrijus ah. our friendly kolibrie has come.
14:27 theorbtwo Yeah, if aut had asked just what constituted a language, I would have said that mssql and DBI::ODBC weren't differen't languages.
14:28 gaal well, one isn't a language by even less counts.
14:28 gaal fewer
14:31 gaal Haskell doesn't have a getopt-like library?
14:31 autrijus it has something better :)
14:31 gaal i was thinking of -I
14:32 gaal oh?
14:32 autrijus (System.Console.GetOpt)
14:32 autrijus but perl isn't exactly getopt.
14:32 autrijus so I'm not sure what to make of pugs.
14:32 gaal is the comamnd line specified for p6 at all?
14:32 autrijus what do you think?
14:32 autrijus not at all.
14:32 theorbtwo I'd make it GNU-semantics compatable, then.
14:33 autrijus and break -Ifoo ?
14:33 autrijus or specify a set of rewrite rules?
14:33 gaal hmm, perl isn't getopt? it's pretty standard if you allow for trailing args to te script
14:33 sorje has joined #perl6
14:33 theorbtwo -Ifoo breaks how?
14:33 autrijus there's no-I now
14:33 autrijus gaal: ah. I thought -Farg doesn't work with getopt
14:33 theorbtwo Well why not?
14:34 autrijus theorbtwo: because no one wrote it? :)
14:34 gaal it does under some circumstances
14:34 gaal like you have to turn off clustering
14:34 autrijus but then
14:34 gaal so that -vax != -v -a -x
14:34 autrijus perl -pie ...
14:34 autrijus is clustered
14:34 gaal yeah :(
14:34 autrijus so I can't just use haskell's getopt
14:34 gaal well -i never was clustered
14:35 gaal (unfortunately)
14:35 autrijus or anything's, for that matter.
14:35 theorbtwo OK, so not quite GNU semantics, sadly.
14:35 gaal yeah. :/
14:35 theorbtwo It's often annoyed me that -M strict does not work.
14:35 autrijus right.
14:35 gaal it doesn't? that's a shame
14:35 autrijus in ruby, -v and --verbose both works.
14:35 * gaal never noticed that
14:36 autrijus I think that's sanity.
14:36 gaal well, if you do everything long-getopt style, you get sanity
14:36 theorbtwo It's sometimes nice to be able to tab-complete, even if you do have to tab complete, then change / to :: and remove the .pm.
14:36 gaal but no shortcuts.
14:36 chansen has joined #perl6
14:36 autrijus gaal: not exactly sure what to do, then.
14:37 autrijus I much prefer long style myself with selected shorthands
14:37 autrijus like -I and -M
14:37 gaal theorb2: you can fix *that* in your shell.
14:37 theorbtwo That'd require learning how, though.
14:37 gaal that == being able to complete even immediately following a prefix, that is, not editing the completiong on-the-fly.
14:37 chansen has left
14:37 gaal i use tcsh for interactive work (yes, i know, i'm getting rare)...
14:38 autrijus so, -[VDFl0ImMxe] nest
14:38 autrijus I mean cluster
14:38 autrijus via rewrite rules
14:38 autrijus then pass it into long getopt.
14:38 autrijus how's that for sanity?
14:38 gaal -x? i didn't remember that even existed
14:38 theorbtwo Hmm... somehow, that seems backwards.
14:39 autrijus gaal: "tells Perl that the program is embedded in a larger chunk of unrelated ascii text"
14:39 autrijus theorbtwo: elaborate?
14:39 gaal yes, i remember that now (eg fish it out of an email)
14:39 theorbtwo Those are the list of switches that /do/ take an argument.
14:39 theorbtwo Surely the ones that cluster are the ones that do /not/?
14:39 autrijus right. sorry.
14:40 autrijus hrm. will anyone miss -ple ?
14:40 autrijus well. never mind. me for one.
14:41 autrijus sigh. :(
14:41 theorbtwo I think that should get re-written to -p -l -e, and then passed on.
14:41 theorbtwo Or we should just accept it, and write our own.
14:42 autrijus but ruby adopted -ple too
14:42 autrijus just to stay competitive.
14:42 autrijus I say we accept our doom. :(
14:42 gaal ruby took something from perl? wow. :p
14:42 autrijus gaal: ruby's command line is 99% perl.
14:42 autrijus its license, too.
14:42 autrijus and more.
14:43 gaal well, from the user perspective it makes sense that the comand line is weird but gives maximum utility. just like everything else in perl
14:43 autrijus before I started Pugs, I used to say that Ruby is Perl 6 without the advertisement.
14:44 gaal autrijus, i was joking, of course. i don't know ruby but most of what i saw looked familiar :)
14:44 autrijus :)
14:44 autrijus but nobody ever worked on a CPAN2Ruby converter.
14:44 autrijus if there is, I predict mass migration :)
14:44 autrijus (same applies for Perl 6.)
14:44 autrijus (but for Perl 6 it's one of deliverables.)
14:45 gaal well, now it's time for somone to write a ruby2p6 converter :)
14:45 autrijus there's a rubyonparrot team :)
14:46 gaal has anyone used getopt::declare? how does it feel liike to the user?
14:46 gaal i mean the person running the script, not the programmer
14:46 autrijus oh. not sure.
14:47 autrijus System.Console.GetOpt is a lot like that for the programmer
14:47 autrijus but conforms to gnu long opt style
14:47 autrijus for the user.
14:48 gaal well, i'm thinking, if we manage to write perl5's commandline handling with getopt declare, then we could port it to haskell, and use that for pugs, plus maybe even expose an interface for the p6 programmer for their own scripts.
14:49 autrijus well, we wouldn't need to port it to haskell then.
14:49 autrijus port it to p6 ;)
14:49 autrijus and run that with pugs.
14:49 gaal and have pugs not deal with its own command line at all?
14:49 autrijus aye.
14:49 gaal bootstrapping problem: where does it find its internal getopt?
14:50 autrijus inline it?
14:50 autrijus you think p5's cmdline syntax can be expressed with getopt declare?
14:50 autrijus I was thinking about a small parser with parsec.
14:51 autrijus that's an excellent way to learn parsec :)
14:51 gaal okay. well, i'll be glad to look into it then. but now i have to leave again for some more hours.
14:51 autrijus ok. see ya!
14:51 gaal bye!
14:51 * gaal &
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15:18 masak i'm getting strange output when running the towers of hanoi example
15:18 masak bash-3.00$ ./pugs examples/hanoi.p6
15:18 masak ndisks = 3
15:18 masak AS
15:18 masak AS
15:18 masak SS
15:18 masak AB
15:18 masak SS
15:18 masak SB
15:18 masak SB
15:18 masak how could I possibly move something from S to S?
15:19 masak am I missing something?
15:27 masak when I run a quick p5 port, I get much saner output
15:27 masak bash-3.00$ ./hanoi.pl
15:27 masak ndisks = 3
15:27 masak AB
15:27 masak AS
15:27 masak BS
15:27 masak AB
15:27 masak SA
15:28 masak SB
15:28 masak AB
15:28 masak at least that *looks* like it could be right?
15:28 masak is hanoi supposed to be borken?
15:45 masak has left
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15:45 masak has left
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15:59 autrijus masak: wow. it looks broken.
15:59 autrijus thanks for bringing it to my attention. will fix.
16:00 autrijus brb &
16:02 iblechbot has joined #perl6
16:04 masak how finished is pugs?
16:04 masak i'm thinking of writing a small board game in it
16:04 masak is that doable?
16:08 rjbs Depends on what you need it to do, surely.
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16:25 jabbot pugs - 881 - * Disallow UNINST=1 during install.
16:34 masak rjbs: well, I need it to be able to handle simple data structures, like arrays and hashes. i need loops, if statements, subs, scalars, a way to enter input... that's about it.
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17:01 stevan morning all
17:01 stevan nothingmuch: you around?
17:01 nothingmuch in and out
17:02 stevan I just ran make test
17:02 nothingmuch uhuh?
17:02 stevan and then took a nap, ate breakfast and walked the dog
17:02 stevan its taking a loooong time
17:02 nothingmuch ook
17:02 stevan I think we should think about re-organizing the test suite
17:02 chip Ha.  "Open Profanity License."  http://www.lcdf.org/xshostakovich/COPYING
17:02 nothingmuch for me it usually runs in under 2-3 minutes on my laptop (which is slooooww)
17:02 stevan it wont speed it up,..
17:03 nothingmuch and about a minute on a very fast machine at work
17:03 stevan yeah
17:03 stevan what do you think about re-organizing it
17:04 stevan for instance,.. making a data-structures folder for the array/hash tests
17:04 stevan stuff like that
17:04 stevan I dont want to get to granular, but as the suite grows, its harder and harder to find things
17:05 nothingmuch err, we could
17:05 nothingmuch i've been thinking about it a while
17:05 nothingmuch but how would that make it faster?
17:05 nothingmuch perhaps quicker, if you only want to tests parts
17:05 stevan I dont mind doing the work
17:05 nothingmuch well, that's true
17:05 stevan it wont make it faster
17:05 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:05 stevan exactly
17:05 stevan more intelligent grouping means I can run less of it
17:06 stevan again, I dont mind doing the work, but I just want to get feedback on my restructuring
17:06 nothingmuch okay
17:06 stevan alright, I will whip up a proposed structure and get back to you  
17:07 nothingmuch great
17:07 nothingmuch put it up on the wiki
17:07 ingy sdkjfhsdhfhola
17:07 ingy riight
17:07 ingy morning
17:07 masak question: how ready is pugs for writing a smaller application?
17:08 masak i'm thinking of implementing a board game in either perl 5 or pugs
17:08 masak and i need data points for my decision
17:08 stevan masak: we dont have multi-dimensional data structures so you might have a hard time
17:09 masak hm
17:09 masak but can i create an array of... things?
17:09 pjcj but substr works, doesn't it?
17:09 stevan pjcj: not sure,.. it might now
17:10 masak all i need is really an array of array[ref]s
17:10 masak is that the same as a multidimensional array?
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17:11 * stevan read an article recently on game boards implemented with bits
17:11 masak :)
17:11 stevan masak: yes
17:11 stevan array refs are not implemented yet
17:11 masak ah
17:11 stevan or rather,.. they are,.. but you cannot nest them
17:11 masak could be a problem
17:11 stevan they will flatten
17:11 masak ok
17:11 masak well... can i help?
17:11 stevan sure
17:11 stevan know Haskell?
17:12 masak um... a little
17:12 masak i know fp
17:12 masak and i have read some haskell
17:12 stevan you can take a look at that stuff,.. or on the perl6 side, you can write tests or examples or even convert your favorit perl 5 module
17:12 obra stevan: are there tests for multidemensioanl arrays? yeah
17:12 stevan orba: yes
17:12 obra obra, but yeah :)
17:12 masak :)
17:13 masak stevan: ok, i will. thx!
17:17 autrijus greetings.
17:17 stevan howdy autrijus
17:18 autrijus yo stevan. what's up?
17:18 stevan not much
17:18 stevan thinking about re-organizing the test suite
17:18 stevan its getting big
17:19 autrijus it is.
17:19 autrijus and I imagine t/objects starting soon
17:19 stevan yeah
17:19 autrijus larry makes fun of my use of "woot".
17:19 stevan t/data_structures
17:19 autrijus :p
17:19 autrijus yeah. I think 1-level deepness works
17:19 kungfuftr autrijus: kill him!
17:19 autrijus probably don't need t/foo/bar/baz.t
17:20 autrijus kungfuftr: nah. larry is inimitable
17:20 stevan autrijus: yeah not too deep
17:20 stevan wide and shallow
17:20 autrijus yup.
17:21 pjcj perl5 has a coretest target, but that would probably cover all the current tests anyway
17:21 obra hi
17:22 obra mishi
17:22 autrijus hi obra-san.
17:22 autrijus ETA to boarding?
17:22 ingy hola
17:22 obra hi autrijus-san. um. boarding in 6:30
17:22 autrijus and now is.. ?
17:22 obra er. boarding in 6:00
17:22 autrijus oh ok.
17:22 obra sorry. in six hours.
17:22 kungfuftr baka neko-san?
17:22 obra it is now 12:20
17:22 autrijus six hours. nice.
17:22 ingy 18:00
17:22 obra before then, I must reply to sales inquiries and finish packing
17:23 autrijus ok. I need to focus for 10 minutes
17:23 autrijus and finish lightstep's thunking patch.
17:23 autrijus better to do it while it still merges without conflicts.
17:23 * ingy is jealous of obra
17:24 * rgs wants a box of inline
17:25 crysflame hi
17:28 obra is now known as ingy_
17:28 ingy is now known as obra
17:29 autrijus ingy_: so your EU::MM hacks needs 6.17.
17:29 autrijus I perceive it's not a problem
17:29 autrijus so I OK'ed the build_requires
17:29 ingy_ hah. my nick hilighting is triggering
17:30 ingy_ is now known as obra_
17:30 obra is now known as ingy
17:30 obra_ is now known as obra
17:31 ingy autrijus: which hack is that
17:32 ingy (so many hacks, so little time)
17:32 autrijus ingy: the massive cleanups
17:32 ingy oh hmmm
17:32 ingy what's the deal??
17:33 autrijus apparently EUMM 5.x doesn't like the magics.
17:34 autrijus 6.17 is in 5.8.1 and 5.6.2 though
17:34 autrijus so not sure we need to care.
17:38 marcusT has quit IRC ("have a nice weekend")
17:42 malaire has joined #perl6
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18:02 luqui has joined #perl6
18:13 justatheory has quit IRC ()
18:14 ninereasons what am I supposed to be using to read the kwid markup (besides /usr/bin/less)?
18:15 jabbot pugs - 882 - substr should work for all cases - excep
18:16 stevan ninereasons: there is a Perl5-Kwid which does simple kwid to html I believe
18:16 ninereasons I'll look for it, thank you.
18:17 stevan ninereasons: http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Kwid-0.00_01/
18:17 luqui wow
18:17 luqui that's an early version
18:17 luqui not even the default 0.01
18:18 autrijus hey luqui!
18:18 autrijus nice to see you here!
18:18 stevan so alpha it hurts :P
18:18 malaire seems like my commit-message was badly-worded for jabbot - the except-text got cut off...
18:18 luqui yeah, i've been away
18:18 autrijus I'm about to commit a huge refactoring.
18:18 luqui schoolin' and working on Logic.pm
18:18 luqui autrijus: what does it do?
18:18 autrijus symbol table now contains Vals not Exps
18:18 autrijus and Vals may be VThunks
18:18 autrijus which preserves its env.
18:18 luqui neat
18:19 autrijus that makes := Just Works.
18:19 autrijus so @fib ;)
18:19 autrijus also, pugscc can still handle it.
18:19 autrijus (which is the important part)
18:19 autrijus and once we can Show and Read VThunks
18:19 autrijus we have serializable continuations.
18:19 luqui Do you have any references for thunking techniques
18:20 luqui autrijus: yay serializable continuations
18:20 luqui parrot said it's going to have those
18:20 obra luqui: parrot said so after autrijus cornered dan at lunch and drew on napkins at last oscon
18:20 autrijus right.
18:20 autrijus basic works are there
18:20 autrijus not exposed to pasm last I checked.
18:20 luqui ahh, thanks autrijus
18:21 autrijus sure. it's my pet wishlist item.
18:21 autrijus so, either simon pj's free online book
18:21 autrijus (url in a sec)
18:21 autrijus or "The Glasgow Haskell compiler: a technical overview"
18:21 luqui I'm trying to implement them for Logic.pm
18:21 autrijus "The Implementation
18:21 autrijus of Functional Programming Languages"
18:21 luqui backtracking junctions need it
18:22 autrijus you synced with AI::Prolog's work?
18:22 autrijus or there's no overlap?
18:22 luqui I've used it for reference
18:22 luqui But mostly I'm implementing it to understand how to implement it
18:23 luqui (and to provide MMD based on logical conditions)
18:23 autrijus nod nod.
18:23 autrijus good. that's good spike solution work
18:23 luqui hmm?
18:24 luqui spike what what?
18:24 autrijus sorry. XP jargon.
18:24 autrijus http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/spike.html
18:24 luqui *click*
18:25 luqui I probably won't throw it away though.  I'm quite happy with its design.
18:25 luqui One of those things where my gut told me to design it the way that turned out to be right (rare).
18:25 autrijus cool!
18:25 autrijus but you'll port it to p6 :)
18:25 luqui That's the plan
18:26 luqui it's a proof-of-concept module for pattern matching
18:26 autrijus good. by that time we may even compile your code.
18:26 * autrijus has been researching a lot on how to write metametacircular compiler
18:26 luqui did you type meta twice by accident?
18:26 autrijus no, intentional
18:27 autrijus normal macro things, like Template Haskell or Scheme, although they let you use the host language as macro language,
18:27 autrijus that phase occurs after the tokenization.
18:27 autrijus or really, after AST.
18:27 autrijus and then you tweak the AST.
18:27 luqui ahhh... we need to parse
18:27 metaperl_ ingy, ping
18:27 autrijus but perl6 is better than that; you can use the host language to affect lexing.
18:28 autrijus and may even force reparsing of your lexical block
18:28 metaperl_ I think head1 head2, etc are a little more useful than =, == , === . For one they are easier to search for. For two, they immediately tell you what level you have
18:28 autrijus whenever there's a lookahead.
18:28 autrijus and all this is inside an evaluator
18:28 autrijus that does incremental compile.
18:28 autrijus the same onthefly compiler is available at eval"" time as well.
18:28 autrijus and must be typesafe.
18:29 autrijus so, lots of fun.
18:29 ingy hola
18:29 ingy metaperl_:
18:29 luqui hola.  como estas?  (pronounce estas with accent on first syllable)
18:29 luqui (como gringo)
18:29 ingy metaperl_: maybe join #kwid
18:35 rafl_ is now known as rafl
18:47 luqui has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:53 tiw has left
18:54 autrijus woot.
18:54 autrijus fought thru the typechecker now
18:54 autrijus pugs> my $a = 1; my $b := $a; $b = 3; $a
18:54 autrijus 3
18:54 autrijus lvalue bindings work.
18:54 ingy autrijus++
18:59 crysflame autrijus: neat
19:05 iblechbot has joined #perl6
19:08 sorje nice
19:09 sorje pugs> ? "hi".say
19:09 sorje Segmentation fault
19:16 Qiang_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:16 malaire I get "Segmentation fault" for everything tested so far, when using  pugs> ?
19:16 theorbtwo Hm, works fine for me.
19:17 malaire :r also given "Segmentation fault"...
19:17 theorbtwo Odd.
19:18 * theorbtwo tries from make clean.
19:20 theorbtwo Still works.
19:20 theorbtwo CPU-archs?
19:21 malaire Athlon 1333
19:22 malaire I'm trying again from clean "svn up"...
19:23 malaire err, "svn co" ...
19:23 Qiang_ has joined #perl6
19:24 sorje malaire, which version of ghc are you using?
19:24 malaire GHC 6.4
19:24 sorje theorbtwo, you?
19:24 sorje I'm using 6.4, too.
19:26 autrijus win32?
19:26 autrijus win32 gives me segfaults also.
19:26 autrijus readline+win32+6.4 specifically
19:26 autrijus nothing else does that to me.
19:26 malaire I have linux
19:26 sorje linux here
19:26 autrijus weird.
19:30 malaire hmm.. how could I turn off all optimizations while 'make' ?
19:30 autrijus malaire: pass -O0 to GHC.
19:30 autrijus so, hack makefile
19:30 autrijus I'm testing.
19:32 autrijus argh!
19:32 autrijus I reverted Eval.hs to get -O back
19:32 autrijus now my refactoring is all gone :-(
19:32 * autrijus blames svk for not having unrevert
19:32 * autrijus redoes everything
19:33 chip rerevert
19:38 * malaire has to go to sleep now...
19:38 malaire has left
19:39 theorbtwo Er, I'm using linux/P4/GHC6.2.2
19:44 sorje has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:46 stevan nothingmuch: ping!
19:46 nothingmuch pong
19:46 stevan http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Testing
19:46 nothingmuch quickly though, i have to clean the kitchen
19:46 stevan nothingmuch: take your time
19:47 stevan autrijus: you might want to take a look too
19:47 autrijus recoded everything from scratch.
19:47 stevan I tried to keep it no deeper then one
19:47 stevan but in some cases it want 2 deep
19:48 stevan t/data_types/hash/*
19:48 stevan stuff like that
19:48 nothingmuch s/objects/oop/
19:48 nothingmuch merge as much as possible
19:48 autrijus ok, I'm committing something silly.
19:48 nothingmuch and create a top level 'general' everywhere there's too much cruft, i think
19:48 nothingmuch what i'm worried about is err, where things meet
19:49 nothingmuch are traits oop? or are they for data types?
19:49 stevan oop/traits/
19:49 autrijus it works, but apparently makes things a lot slower.
19:49 theorbtwo On data and on containers.
19:49 nothingmuch as for builtins: they should probably be left now
19:49 nothingmuch just grouped
19:50 nothingmuch and later remapped based on s29's partitioning
19:50 theorbtwo ...but not purtiuclarly tied to OO.
19:50 stevan ok
19:50 nothingmuch there should be a directory, pugsbugs or something like that
19:50 nothingmuch with most of t/syntax/ going into t/pugsbugs/syntax
19:50 nothingmuch etc
19:50 stevan ok
19:51 nothingmuch hmm
19:51 stevan actually not all of syntax/,..  
19:51 stevan I moved some stuff in there
19:51 nothingmuch not all, most =)
19:51 stevan ok updated the page
19:51 nothingmuch i think t/op/ should be made into stuff like t/op/numeric, t/op/string, etc
19:51 nothingmuch to correspond with the prefixes
19:52 stevan ok
19:52 nothingmuch now that they're standardized
19:53 justatheory has joined #perl6
19:53 nothingmuch i think i may be overzealous, but i think a myriad of tests will be added eventually
19:53 stevan why do you think that?
19:53 stevan with s29?
19:53 nothingmuch splitting everything up?
19:53 nothingmuch because there are going to be lots and lots of primitives
19:53 nothingmuch btw, quoting should go under syntax, i think,
19:54 stevan ok
19:54 masak i have researched the hanoi bug a little further
19:54 stevan i was thinking q// was a kinda operator maybe
19:54 masak i still dare not go close the haskell source
19:54 nothingmuch also, i'd like t/examples to widen a bit
19:54 masak but i have made a few debug outputs
19:54 nothingmuch when Test::Output will be done, i will gladly unit test the examples
19:54 masak and it seems the S's are spreading
19:55 masak a very strange phenomenon
19:55 masak could it have something to do with binging of parameters?
19:56 masak which source file should i (hypothetically) look in?
19:56 nothingmuch stevan: well, sort of
19:56 nothingmuch except it's not an operator in the typical sense
19:56 autrijus masak: Eval.hs and Bind.hs. wait me a sec
19:56 nothingmuch since it's effect is normally compile time
19:56 stevan nothingmuch: a lot of things don't seem typical :)
19:56 masak autrijus: oki
19:57 nothingmuch anyway, i've got to clean up
19:57 stevan nothingmuch: how about I start with this, then we can go from there
19:57 nothingmuch sure
19:57 stevan ok I will do all this re-arranging later today,..
19:57 stevan have fun cleaning the kitchen :)
19:58 nothingmuch i'd like to standardize on a test -> syn link format
19:58 nothingmuch and start doing that doay
19:58 nothingmuch today
19:58 nothingmuch and maybe someone can whip up a website where that stuff gets updated
19:58 autrijus ok, I'm back to the material plane.
19:58 * autrijus backlogs
19:59 stevan nothingmuch: I agree on the test cataloger
19:59 stevan I think this re-org will help though
19:59 autrijus hrm, I'd argue for t/junction/ to be toplevel
19:59 autrijus because it's testing the junctive logic
19:59 autrijus not the operators per se.
19:59 stevan autrijus: thats fine with me,.. I struggled with where to put it anyway
20:00 autrijus and s/oop/objects/
20:00 stevan nothingmuch: with better orgs, we can build better PODs, which are easier to navigate, etc et cetc
20:00 stevan LOL
20:00 nothingmuch objects?
20:00 stevan nothingmuch: just s/object/oop/
20:00 autrijus LOL.
20:00 * autrijus thinks.
20:01 autrijus you know, oo/ makes more sense than oop/ :)
20:01 * autrijus thinks some more.
20:01 nothingmuch oop sounds like soup
20:01 nothingmuch but that's the only reason i like it
20:01 autrijus I think objects/.
20:01 nothingmuch oo is short and unambiguous
20:01 nothingmuch objects is too specific
20:01 autrijus true.
20:01 nothingmuch there's lots more than objects
20:01 nothingmuch maybe oo/objects
20:01 autrijus oo then. I'm fine with oo.
20:02 stevan ok
20:02 nothingmuch oo/traits, oo/classes, oo/classes/anynymous.t
20:02 * stevan changes the wiki again
20:02 nothingmuch as far as definition is concerned it's all about objects, but language implementation needs to be partitioned better than that, IMHO
20:02 autrijus otherwise it looks very sane.
20:02 * masak has checked the source code /me likes the poems
20:02 stevan autrijus: sane was my goal :)
20:03 masak oops :)
20:03 autrijus ok. hanoi
20:03 masak :)
20:03 masak i don't understand the code
20:03 autrijus the hanoi code?
20:04 masak the pugs source
20:04 masak i want to, but i have a bit left to go... :/
20:04 autrijus oh. nvm that.
20:04 masak so how can i help?
20:04 masak i have one more output
20:05 autrijus so, when disks = 2
20:05 autrijus it says
20:05 autrijus AS
20:05 autrijus AB
20:05 autrijus SB
20:05 masak yes
20:05 masak that is correct
20:05 masak as far as i can tell
20:05 autrijus ok
20:05 autrijus so =3 is the first error case
20:05 masak yes
20:05 jabbot pugs - 883 - * Full thunking landed: The symbol table
20:05 masak look here
20:06 masak bash-3.00$ ./pugs examples/hanoi.p6 3
20:06 masak ndisks = 3
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=A, $s=S, $b=B
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=A, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=A, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=A, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 autrijus I see a "SS"
20:06 masak 1AS
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak 2AS
20:06 Limbic_Region autrijus - http://use.perl.org/~tombom/journal/23724 # first time with Pugs
20:06 autrijus SS could not be right.
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak 1SS
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak 3AB
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=B
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak 1SS
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 autrijus er. nopaste! nopaste!
20:06 masak 2SB
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=B
20:06 autrijus pasteling: nopaste?
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=S
20:06 masak 1SB
20:06 masak Upon entering $a=S, $s=S, $b=B
20:06 autrijus pasteling: nopaste
20:06 masak no
20:06 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
20:06 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
20:06 autrijus oops :p
20:06 autrijus masak: try nopaste :)
20:07 autrijus I can't quite grok irc pastes
20:07 masak oh, sorry
20:07 masak what's nopaste?
20:07 autrijus perlbot: nopaste
20:07 perlbot Paste your code here and #perl will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/perl
20:07 masak ah
20:08 masak there
20:08 * masak uses nopaste for the first time
20:08 autrijus except you need to select #perl6 :)
20:08 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "hanoi debug run" (24 lines, 566B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8334
20:08 masak ouch :(
20:09 * masak wreacks havoc in #perl forum by pasting perl6 code there without explanation
20:09 autrijus :)
20:10 autrijus so obviously the pad is broken
20:10 masak ah, obviously :)
20:10 masak the pad is broken
20:10 autrijus now, to find out why.
20:10 autrijus :)
20:10 autrijus care to produce a minimum test case?
20:10 masak sure
20:11 masak how?
20:11 autrijus one that is not 307 bytes long
20:11 jabbot masak: how is it supposed to err, perform normally given say:
20:11 autrijus preferably in one line :)
20:11 masak ok :)
20:11 masak i'll do my smallest
20:11 autrijus probably beginning with sub s ($a,$b,$c) {...}
20:11 autrijus or something like that
20:11 autrijus thanks!
20:11 masak yes
20:11 masak brb
20:12 theorbtwo masak: The pad is where lexical variables are kept.
20:13 masak ah, as opposed to...?
20:13 autrijus well in pugs there are two pads
20:13 autrijus one lexical and one global
20:13 autrijus actually "global" just means "per-package"
20:14 autrijus but we don't have packages yet, so it's as good as global
20:14 autrijus almost all data type definitions are in AST.hs.
20:14 autrijus so, to learn what a Pad is, you grep Pad in AST.hs :)
20:14 autrijus and it says:
20:14 autrijus type Pad = [Symbol]
20:14 autrijus in english: "a pad is a list of symbols."
20:15 autrijus and you may wish to ask what a Symbol is
20:15 autrijus look at the next line
20:15 autrijus and it will tell you that a symbol is a Scope, a Name, and either a Value or a Expression.
20:15 autrijus etc, etc:)
20:16 autrijus and to learn what a Scope is, the next line says
20:16 autrijus data Scope = SGlobal | SMy | SOur | SLet | STemp | SState
20:16 autrijus which reads just like enums.
20:17 masak ah
20:17 masak i have encountered an unexpected problem
20:18 autrijus oh?
20:18 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "unexpected error" (5 lines, 124B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8335
20:18 masak maybe it's just me not knowing pugs syntax
20:18 masak but it trips on the comma in my sub declaration
20:18 autrijus I think you want ''.
20:18 autrijus bash interpolates $a.
20:18 autrijus not a pugs problem :)
20:18 masak i see
20:18 masak thx
20:18 autrijus np
20:19 masak it compiles now :)
20:20 crysflame doesn't bash support heredocs?
20:20 crysflame like perl -e <<FOO
20:21 gaal yoyoyo
20:21 crysflame hm, not enough to work, i guess. o well.
20:23 masak autrijus: ok, here goes
20:24 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "minimal test case" (4 lines, 198B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8336
20:24 masak the second run should return "ba"
20:24 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
20:25 masak this is probably not the pragmatically correct way to make a minimal test case, but it shows what's wrong
20:26 autrijus that's fine
20:27 autrijus sub h($a,$b,$d) {return h($b,$a,0) if $d;"$a$b"} say h('a','b',1)
20:27 autrijus I'll use this.
20:27 autrijus testing
20:29 autrijus yay. I got mail indicating YAPC::NA wants me there.
20:29 hide I could have told you that.
20:29 autrijus oh! you're on the organizing team?
20:29 hide nah, just part of TO.pm
20:30 gaal they have a moose in their logo! cool.
20:30 autrijus masak: you may be interested in running
20:31 autrijus ghci -isrc src/Main.hs
20:31 masak ok
20:31 autrijus then type
20:31 autrijus eval "sub h($a,$b,$d) {$d ?? h($b,$a,0) :: qq[$a$b]} say h('a','b',1)"
20:31 autrijus that explains clearly what went wrong.
20:31 masak right. brb
20:31 masak woah
20:31 * masak is overwhelmed by fp symbols
20:32 autrijus want some explanation? :)
20:32 masak i'm sure it explains it clearly... to someone else :)
20:32 masak yes please
20:32 autrijus it is aligned with
20:32 autrijus *** Evl: expression
20:32 autrijus *** Ret: value
20:32 autrijus pairs
20:33 autrijus which may be nested
20:33 autrijus the expressions and values may span several lines.
20:33 masak ok
20:33 autrijus so the first Evl is the entire program.
20:33 autrijus it displays a parse tree.
20:33 masak ok
20:33 autrijus so, it first evaluates the sub{...}
20:34 masak yes
20:34 autrijus and put it into SGlobal &h
20:34 masak ...which it should
20:34 autrijus then it evaluates ('a','b',1)[0..Inf]
20:34 masak hunh?
20:34 autrijus never mind :)
20:34 autrijus it evaluates the arguments.
20:34 masak ok
20:35 autrijus so you see a
20:35 autrijus App "&h" ('a','b',1)
20:35 masak yes
20:35 masak "apply"
20:35 autrijus which means it tries to apply &h with the correct args.
20:35 masak yes
20:35 autrijus now there is the ??:: form.
20:35 masak yes
20:35 autrijus it is written as
20:35 autrijus Syn "if" { cond ; true ; false }
20:35 masak yes
20:35 autrijus where the false part has a cxt forcer
20:35 autrijus of "Str"
20:35 autrijus and joins $a and $b and ''.
20:35 masak ok
20:36 autrijus which is what interpolation is.
20:36 autrijus so it evaluates cond.
20:36 autrijus that's $d, and is 0
20:36 autrijus I mean, 1.
20:36 masak cool... it's starting to make some weird kind of sense
20:36 autrijus then it tries to evaluate (App "&h" (Var "$b", Var "$a", 0))
20:36 autrijus which is the <true> part.
20:37 masak yes
20:37 autrijus so it looks up $b and $a.
20:37 masak so far so good
20:37 masak yes
20:37 autrijus $b is 'b'.
20:37 autrijus $a is 'b'.
20:37 autrijus oops!
20:37 masak but we knew that, right?
20:37 masak that's the problem, not the solution
20:37 autrijus yes. but the important thing is the sequence of things happening :)
20:37 masak ah, ok
20:37 autrijus it means that $b is bound first to $a
20:38 autrijus I mean, 'b' is bound to $a
20:38 masak ...because the pad is broken?
20:38 autrijus and the second argument is _then_ evaluated.
20:38 autrijus so it uses the modified pad
20:38 autrijus where $a is already bound anew
20:38 autrijus and get that value.
20:38 masak why does it use the modified pad?
20:38 autrijus because whereas we should evaluate all arguments first, then bind them to formal params
20:39 autrijus it appears that we are evaluating one and bind one
20:39 autrijus and evaluate another.
20:39 autrijus that is seriously broken.
20:39 masak not good
20:39 autrijus so, the place to find this is Eval.hs
20:39 masak ok
20:39 autrijus I'm checking code, a sec.
20:39 autrijus (doApply is the place)
20:39 * masak has got to learn haskell after this
20:40 autrijus ok.
20:40 autrijus I know why now.
20:40 masak woot
20:40 autrijus but you need to know haskell to follow completely
20:40 autrijus nevertheless I'll explain
20:41 masak yes, do
20:41 autrijus ok. you see doApply?
20:41 masak sec
20:41 autrijus doApply :: Env -> VSub -> [Exp] -> [Exp] -> Eval Val
20:41 autrijus Eval.hs line 614
20:41 autrijus if it's not line 614 for you, svn up.
20:42 masak it is
20:42 autrijus ok.
20:42 autrijus now, the :: line is the function signature.
20:42 autrijus it says:
20:42 masak yeah
20:42 autrijus doApply takes the current environment (the pads)
20:42 autrijus and a subroutine
20:42 autrijus and a set of invocants
20:42 autrijus and another set of arguments
20:42 autrijus (here we only use arguments)
20:42 autrijus then it evaluates a Value for you.
20:42 masak currying, right?
20:43 autrijus hm?
20:43 autrijus subroutines are closures. not sure how currying apply here
20:43 masak maybe not
20:43 autrijus if you only pass it an argument, then it curries. but we're using full invocation
20:43 masak fp is still voodoo to me
20:43 autrijus anyway. see the next line.
20:43 masak ok
20:43 autrijus now we start binding
20:44 masak yes
20:44 autrijus so, we only care about the "cls" part of the env
20:44 autrijus but ignore that.
20:44 autrijus then we call the subroutine "sub"
20:44 autrijus and call its parameters "prms", its body "fun", and its type "typ".
20:44 autrijus then we call the invocants "invs" and arguments "args".
20:44 autrijus with that done, we start evaluating.
20:44 masak ok
20:45 autrijus so, we call "bindParams prms invs args"
20:45 autrijus which binds the invs and args against the formal prms
20:45 stevan uhm
20:45 stevan r883
20:45 stevan pugs -e 'my $a; $a += $_ for 1 .. 10; say $a'
20:45 autrijus uhm.
20:45 stevan this is an infinite loop and gobbles up the whole CPU
20:45 autrijus you don't need the say$a
20:46 masak stevan: thanks for telling :)
20:46 autrijus you don't need the $_.
20:46 stevan autrijus: the say $a was to test it works on the older Pugs :)
20:46 autrijus ./pugs -e 'my $a; for 1 {  $a + 1 };'
20:46 autrijus is sufficient.
20:46 stevan :)
20:46 autrijus stevan: I'll fix in a min.
20:46 autrijus let me fix masak's bug first. :)
20:47 stevan ok,.. no rush,.. I just noticed it
20:47 autrijus masak: ok. so bindParams returns either an error message, or a correct set of bindings.
20:47 * stevan should be doing $work stuff anyway
20:47 masak ok
20:47 autrijus we use "case", which is like "switch", to analyze it.
20:47 masak yes
20:47 autrijus if it's an error, well never mind that branch
20:47 autrijus now we have bindings.
20:48 masak ok
20:48 autrijus so we enter a dynamic scope.
20:48 masak enterScope
20:48 autrijus that means CALLER:: from now on refers to where we've been.
20:48 autrijus which makes sense.
20:48 masak sure
20:48 autrijus then we get a set of bound arguments
20:48 autrijus via doBind.
20:48 autrijus we are pretty sure it's where it's broken.
20:48 masak uh huh
20:49 autrijus when you see
20:49 autrijus var <- function args
20:49 autrijus read: "set var to the result of evaluating function with args."
20:49 masak yes...?
20:49 autrijus ok. now go to line 636
20:49 autrijus where doBind is defined.
20:49 masak i'm there
20:50 autrijus excellent.
20:50 autrijus so that line means
20:50 autrijus if you are trying to bind an empty list
20:50 masak yes
20:50 autrijus I give you an emptly list back.
20:50 autrijus which is unexciting.
20:50 masak pattern matching
20:50 autrijus so next line.
20:50 autrijus if you are binding an nonempty list
20:50 autrijus where the first element is a parameter bound to an expression
20:50 autrijus and everything else is called "rest"
20:50 masak ok
20:51 autrijus ignore the Parens branch.
20:51 autrijus so that line reads
20:51 autrijus "I turn expressions to values and assign it to val."
20:52 masak makes sense
20:52 autrijus err, "I turn expression to value and assign it to val."
20:52 autrijus ignore the "coll" part.
20:52 masak yes
20:52 autrijus (it controls junctive autothreading.)
20:52 masak :)
20:52 masak i'll ignore it
20:52 autrijus now line 645
20:52 masak yep
20:52 autrijus it says, "fix the val above with the context given by the parameter name sigil."
20:53 autrijus which is actually bogus.
20:53 autrijus because we need to specify context during evaluation
20:53 autrijus not when we already have a val
20:53 autrijus because the exp may choose to evaluate differently in response to a context.
20:53 masak yes
20:54 masak i think i actually see the problem
20:54 autrijus it's in the next line :)
20:54 masak through a haze, but still
20:54 CDybedahl has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:54 autrijus the next line says:
20:54 masak the recursive call
20:54 autrijus "now bind this variable, and do the rest."
20:54 autrijus oops.
20:54 masak yes
20:54 autrijus now, why was that there?
20:54 masak :)
20:54 autrijus because perl6 allows
20:54 autrijus sub foo ($a, ?$b = $a) { ... }
20:54 autrijus and here the $a refers to the previously bound $a.
20:55 masak ah, wow
20:55 masak neat
20:55 autrijus except it's throwing us off.
20:55 masak yes
20:55 masak want cake and eat cake
20:55 autrijus yes.
20:55 autrijus now, actually there is a difference.
20:55 masak oh, good
20:55 masak :)
20:55 autrijus the $a in ?$b = $a is part of part of an optional arg.
20:56 masak an optional arg?
20:56 autrijus $b is optional.
20:56 autrijus ? denotes optionalness.
20:56 masak ah
20:56 autrijus when Bind.hs processes it, it adds a "Parens" before it.
20:56 autrijus see line 640.
20:56 masak yes
20:57 autrijus let me commit the context fix first.
20:57 masak np
20:58 * masak is greatly enjoying himself
20:58 autrijus it's readable? :)
20:59 masak a bit like russian is readable, yes :)
20:59 autrijus lol.
21:00 autrijus fixed.
21:00 autrijus svn up?
21:00 boch is now known as boch\off
21:02 masak sure, sec
21:03 masak i guess removing and redownloading the entire source tree is not the most effective use of svn...
21:04 autrijus nope :)
21:05 jabbot pugs - 884 - * sub params need to apply their sigil c
21:06 masak svn:ed up
21:06 Limbic_Region autrijus - did you catch the use.perl journal entry I posted - you were in the middle of another conversation
21:07 Limbic_Region s/posted/pasted
21:07 autrijus Limbic_Region: I did.
21:08 * Limbic_Region believes that the rolling snowball isn't far away from critical mass
21:12 masak ...at which point it will... what? explode? stop? melt? :)
21:14 elmex has joined #perl6
21:14 elmex wow
21:15 autrijus my battery just went out :-/
21:15 autrijus bgfscking. sec
21:16 autrijus freebsd-- # no automagic acpiconf -s 4
21:16 Limbic_Region maybe that's a sign you should go to bed
21:17 autrijus heh :)
21:17 masak i'm going to bed
21:17 autrijus and I fixed the bug.
21:18 masak autrijus: thanks for all the explanations
21:18 autrijus testing.
21:18 autrijus masak: no prob :)
21:18 autrijus masak: how should I credit you in AUTHORS?
21:18 masak nonono :)
21:18 autrijus may I make you a committer and let you commit that line yourself? :)
21:18 masak sure :)
21:18 autrijus your email?
21:18 masak [email@hidden.address]
21:18 autrijus ok. sleep well!
21:19 masak thx
21:19 masak has left
21:20 elmex i only wrote one test... not a reason for me to be listed in the credits... i think
21:24 autrijus I think otherwise :)
21:24 autrijus elmex: are you not a committer?
21:27 elmex_ has joined #perl6
21:27 elmex_ a freeflight..
21:27 elmex_ autrijus: you said something?
21:27 autrijus elmex_: are you not a committer? sorry for not remembering
21:28 elmex_ ah, yes, i am... committet a test..
21:28 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
21:28 rg0now has joined #perl6
21:28 autrijus ok. add yourself to AUTHORS then, if only to reduce theorbtwo's workload.
21:29 autrijus hi rg0now!
21:29 rg0now hi
21:29 rg0now might I bugreport now?
21:29 autrijus sure. I'm aware that trunk is broken re :=
21:29 autrijus but go ahead.
21:29 rg0now open is broken too
21:30 rg0now I menan at least on linux
21:30 elmex_ autrijus: oh, if it makes workload to others..i have to add myself.
21:30 autrijus rg0now: yeah. my thunk patch destroyed everything.
21:30 rg0now :)
21:30 rg0now should I wait some time until it stabilizes?
21:31 elmex_ autrijus: what does the stuff in parents in the AUTHORS file mean?
21:31 autrijus rg0now: like, 5 min
21:31 autrijus elmex_: CPAN id
21:31 elmex_ ah, ok, dont have one
21:31 autrijus rg0now: give me a case where open is broken?
21:31 autrijus short test
21:31 rg0now short moment
21:34 rg0now ok, I have the test case:
21:34 rg0now my $fh = open(@ARGS[0]) or die("failed");
21:34 rg0now this one very subtly fails
21:35 rg0now according to strace, it opens the file
21:35 rg0now then it tries to ioctl, that fails
21:35 rg0now the relevant lines from the starce log
21:35 rg0now open("stuff/test.txt", O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_NOCTTY|O_LARGEFILE) = 3
21:36 rg0now so open is successful, but then the ioctl that fails
21:36 rg0now ioctl(3, SNDCTL_TMR_TIMEBASE or TCGETS, 0xbfffd86c) = -1 ENOTTY (Inappropriate ioctl for device)
21:37 rg0now this is Pugs r883 on Debian Linux
21:38 rg0now interestingly, =<> works fine...:-)
21:38 autrijus ok.
21:38 autrijus did it work?
21:39 autrijus before r883
21:39 rg0now I think it did, as the new tsanta code over at PerlMonks uses it
21:39 rg0now you know, the Pugs Golf contest..:-)
21:39 autrijus yup.
21:40 rg0now does it work for you?
21:40 rg0now did _I_ miss something again?
21:40 autrijus no... it worksforme.
21:41 autrijus can you try to trackdown a bit?
21:41 rg0now wait a bit more, I try to narrow it down a bit...
21:41 autrijus try r882.
21:41 autrijus r883 is a huge refactoring.
21:41 rg0now ok
21:41 hide $a += $_ for 1 .. 10; seems to loop for a really long time.
21:42 autrijus hide: svn up.
21:42 hide that was 885, now I'm at 888
21:43 autrijus the shell is broken.
21:43 * hide nods
21:44 hide it actually looped forever in t/base/post, but in 888 appears fixed.
21:44 hide so ignore me :)
21:44 autrijus :)
21:44 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:44 hide I've got some time to add tests, just don't know where to start.
21:45 stevan hide: we are going to re-organize the tests tonight so it wont be so confusing
21:45 stevan hide: here is the proposed new structure
21:45 stevan http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Testing
21:46 stevan feel free to comment on it too, its not yet set in stone
21:46 * stevan thinks he will wait till autrijus goes to sleep to move all the tests around
21:46 autrijus "You have 15 points until level 6."
21:46 autrijus hrm. I swear one month ago I was level 2 or 3 or so.
21:47 * autrijus thinks this perlmonks thing is weird.
21:47 stevan autrijus: it is
21:47 hide stevan: I can help if you'd like.
21:47 autrijus "svk mv" is your friend :)
21:47 autrijus (it preserves history)
21:47 stevan yes
21:47 hide svk++
21:47 stevan svn mv does too :)
21:47 autrijus "svn mv" too, but I wrote svk mv.
21:47 autrijus :)
21:48 theorbtwo autrijus, thanks for trying to reduce my workload.
21:48 autrijus theorbtwo: no problem.
21:48 theorbtwo And thanks for thinking perlmonks is wierd.
21:48 * stevan crosses his fingers and runs make test
21:48 autrijus it is very weird.
21:48 autrijus I like it, though. it's weird in a perlish way.
21:48 rg0now regarding the open failure: it works with r882
21:48 rg0now so it must be the refactoring
21:48 autrijus yay so it's 883.
21:49 autrijus now let's see what lightstep sneaked up in his patch...
21:49 stevan hide: what did you want to help with?
21:49 tiw has joined #perl6
21:50 autrijus failing to find anything related.
21:50 tiw hi all
21:50 autrijus rg0now: I need to sleep soonish.
21:50 autrijus rg0now: if you can help do a binary search inside r883's Prim.hs changes, great
21:50 rg0now ok, I'll be back tomorrow with the latest results...:-)
21:50 autrijus otherwise I'd appreciate a shell or something :)
21:50 rg0now ok
21:50 autrijus tomorrow that is
21:50 tiw i think in given.t, a test case is useless
21:51 rg0now ok, by...
21:51 rg0now has quit IRC ("[BX] Do you... BitchX?")
21:51 stevan tiw: which one?
21:51 hide stevan: moving tests around if need be.
21:51 stevan hide: that is probably best done by a single person, its hard to coordinate
21:51 tiw line 19
21:52 stevan tiw: i hesitate to call any case useless
21:52 tiw stevan: $two will never given a value, no matter test successfully or not
21:52 stevan tiw: but that is tested for
21:53 stevan it is testing that is does *not* get a value
21:53 tiw i mean, when given is not work, the test is still ok
21:53 stevan tiw: yes
21:53 stevan tiw: but if given is broken,.. it might fail
21:54 tiw stevan: ok, it is not useless, but not best
21:55 stevan tiw: agreed, but unimplemented things are hard to test
21:55 stevan feel free to add more if you have ideas
21:55 jabbot pugs - 888 - * now bindings works, unTODO and fix qui
21:55 jabbot pugs - 887 - * op2Numeric repaired
21:55 jabbot pugs - 886 - Added myself to the AUTHOS list.
21:55 jabbot pugs - 885 - * hanoi is back to work
21:56 tiw stevan: i are right.
21:56 tiw stevan: i think  "ok(!$two, "5 is not two");" should to change to todo_ok
21:57 tiw stevan: because this feature is not yet implemented
21:57 tiw it cost me a lot of time to test why this test is "ok"
21:59 stevan tiw: the convention has been to only make failing tests todo_ok and not passing ones
21:59 stevan because Test Harness reads them as "unexpectedly succedding"
22:00 stevan but you are right, it can be confusing
22:01 tiw to test a unimplemented feature, and get ok, do you think it is really good?
22:01 tiw i suggest all test about unimplemented feature should be 'todo_ok'
22:02 stevan but then the test harness will show them unexpectedly succeeding
22:02 stevan which can be confusing
22:05 tiw i do not unstand what the 'failling tests' mean
22:06 stevan if todo_ok passes, then the test harness prints "1 Test Unexpectedly succedded"
22:06 stevan try it
22:07 stevan change it to todo_ok and re-run make test
22:09 * stevan has to go pick up his daughter &
22:13 autrijus ok. think I'll wake up to a refactored test tree tomorrow? :)
22:14 nothingmuch ah
22:14 tiw i hope test should be meanful
22:15 nothingmuch after kitchen cleaning and socializing /me heads off to the gas station
22:15 nothingmuch to reaquire nicotine stores lost to the laundry machine earlier this week,
22:20 autrijus journal up.
22:20 autrijus good night, folks!
22:20 autrijus thanks and have fun :)
22:20 nothingmuch good night, autrijus
22:20 nothingmuch see you tomorrow
22:20 autrijus =)
22:21 nothingmuch hopefully with something done about the test organization!
22:21 autrijus yup!
22:21 autrijus &
22:29 rg0now has joined #perl6
22:29 rg0now has autrijus already left?
22:29 ingy just left
22:30 rg0now I was here some minutes ago and reported a bug
22:30 nothingmuch rg0now: appearantly yes, but you never know ;-)
22:30 rg0now I just wanted autrijus to knwo
22:30 autrijus rg0now: speak quickly. :)
22:30 rg0now that it is now resolved with r888
22:30 rg0now I made a big clean and now everything works fine
22:30 autrijus oh. good. I can sleep better.
22:30 rg0now :-)
22:30 rg0now good night ...
22:30 autrijus :-)
22:30 autrijus rg0now++
22:30 autrijus zzz &
22:30 rg0now bye
22:30 rg0now has quit IRC (Client Quit)
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22:54 stevan ok, I am now commencing test re-organization :)
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23:07 larsen has joined #perl6
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23:23 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
23:27 stevan ok, test re-org is complete
23:27 stevan r889
23:27 nothingmuch ok, quick
23:27 nothingmuch format for test -> syn links
23:28 nothingmuch i'm thinking L<Sxx/Heading_Name>
23:28 nothingmuch with Heading_Name optional
23:28 nothingmuch and as a backlink simply a pointer to the line where that was in the test
23:28 theorbtwo I'd like an optional extra / and more specific data.
23:28 nothingmuch also recognize kwid format
23:28 theorbtwo But it'll do for now, so long as headings don't contain slashes.
23:28 nothingmuch and both formats can be lifted from comments, not only docs
23:29 stevan sounds good to me
23:29 nothingmuch theorbtwo - the byte line seeks, etc?
23:29 theorbtwo ...though that seems fraglie, so possible escape slashes that are in the heading.
23:29 theorbtwo Or at least count of newlines.
23:29 nothingmuch phooey
23:29 nothingmuch right now our aim is to get this done quickly
23:30 nothingmuch not count newlines
23:30 nothingmuch only first slash is significant
23:30 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i think this is better defined later
23:30 nothingmuch if you have a concrete format, please specify it
23:30 nothingmuch and i will conform
23:30 theorbtwo I know, but being forward-compatable is good.
23:30 nothingmuch but i know that I won't be adding that optional data this evening
23:30 theorbtwo Write slashes in headings with... hold on a second while I man pod.
23:30 stevan nothingmuch: what about L<Sxx|heading/with/slashes>
23:31 nothingmuch stevan: err, i think that's too confusing, with | separating display from meaning
23:31 theorbtwo Pipe in L is already defined to mean something else.
23:31 theorbtwo If head contains slashes, write E<sol>
23:31 nothingmuch i would prefer backslash escaping
23:31 stevan what about the S<> idea?
23:31 theorbtwo OK, or do that.
23:31 nothingmuch or pod style escaping
23:31 nothingmuch L<> is a link
23:31 theorbtwo E<sol> is pod-style escape.
23:31 nothingmuch i think S<> was nice for backlinking to tests
23:31 nothingmuch from syns
23:32 nothingmuch but i'm not sure i like that idea
23:32 nothingmuch does anybody know how kwid would do that?
23:32 stevan what about S<> in tests (S for Synopsis) and T<> in Synopsis (T for test)
23:32 nothingmuch ingy: ping
23:32 ingy hi nothingmuch
23:32 nothingmuch stevan: S<> exists... i think we can safely say that L<S##/ is synopses, and L<.*?\.t is a test
23:33 nothingmuch but then again, i really don't want to link from synopses to tests
23:33 stevan nothingmuch: ok by me
23:33 nothingmuch i want to autogenerate the synopses given links from tests
23:33 nothingmuch (please don't assume i'm the self appointed dictator of the linking process, i just need to pee and am trying to type more concisely ;-)
23:34 stevan nothingmuch: go pee then
23:34 nothingmuch ok
23:34 stevan we will wait :)
23:34 nothingmuch =D
23:34 * theorbtwo retracts a question and just agrees.
23:34 theorbtwo I'll ask when you get back.
23:35 stevan ingy: how would you suggest that we link the tests to the syn using kwid?
23:35 nothingmuch ok
23:36 stevan nothingmuch: feel better now
23:36 nothingmuch well, i still want to get it started and get it over
23:36 stevan agreed
23:36 theorbtwo nm, you're OK with writing E<sol> for a literal slash in a heading?
23:36 theorbtwo That's all I want...
23:36 nothingmuch plus i haven't worked on pugs all week
23:37 stevan nothingmuch: really? I could have sworn I saw you in the commit log
23:37 nothingmuch theorbtwo: yes, it's valid pod, and it's sigma-complete, so it can be interpreted and converted to anything else given the need
23:37 nothingmuch stevan: i mean serious work... and i feel sort of bad for not having time to feel good about helping
23:38 nothingmuch one last thing i'd like
23:38 nothingmuch lots of testing has to do with corner cases
23:38 nothingmuch i would like to embed pattern matches in the things
23:38 nothingmuch since headings are unique (sort of, pod warns if they aren't, so that L<> will work)
23:38 nothingmuch then a second slash could be a place for arbitrary skip
23:38 nothingmuch not so much newlines
23:39 nothingmuch but i think this is useful for placing the backlink, or at least a copy of it next to relevant code examples
23:39 nothingmuch thus making theorbtwo's suggestions a bit more Q&D
23:39 nothingmuch this is very not futureproof though
23:39 nothingmuch but i think it's OK if the backlink is placed at the top of the section, with a little message saying 'pattern didn't match section XYZ'
23:40 nothingmuch theorbtwo: does this do what you wanted, sort of?
23:40 theorbtwo Yes.
23:40 nothingmuch assuming //s, you can then say \n{4}
23:40 theorbtwo Works pretty well.
23:40 theorbtwo \n{4} doesn't do what you want, but yeah, it's quite possible.
23:41 theorbtwo # (\n.*?){4}
23:41 ingy hi
23:41 nothingmuch what i suddenly realized isi that tests that work on corner cases have a hard time saying exactly what they do if links are only to headings
23:41 ingy stevan: which way are you linking?
23:42 nothingmuch ingy: tests to synopses
23:42 nothingmuch with S##(?:/heading_name(?:/pattern_in_heading_section)?)?
23:42 nothingmuch inside a L<>
23:42 nothingmuch with literal slashes pod escaped
23:43 ingy in pod/kwid, every '=item foo' and every '=headX' forms a link destination
23:43 nothingmuch ingy: in this case synopses are assumed to be kwom or pod equiv
23:44 nothingmuch what we are worrying about is the formatting of the actual links in the test files
23:44 ingy a link is of the form L<text|page/section> or [text|page|section]
23:44 ingy where section is the text from
23:44 nothingmuch and how to format that L<> style link in kwid
23:45 nothingmuch in the former is the text mandatory for disambiguation?
23:45 theorbtwo Well, we're forming links in the form L<page/section/regex>
23:45 theorbtwo You mean later, I think.
23:45 nothingmuch can you say [|page|section]?
23:45 ingy crap...
23:45 nothingmuch right, latter... /me read the kwid one first and got confused =)
23:45 ingy a link is of the form L<text|page/section> or [text|page/section]
23:45 nothingmuch ok
23:45 theorbtwo ingy, I find the bracket-link syntax you just showed highly confusing... oh, that's much better.
23:45 nothingmuch so in that case we don't care
23:46 nothingmuch what about escaping a slash in [] format?
23:46 nothingmuch if section contains a slash, in pod theorbtwo found out it should  be E<sol>
23:46 ingy not really
23:46 ingy it can be the first slash
23:47 jabbot pugs - 889 - commiting the big test restructuring, I
23:47 ingy as long as the page has no slash
23:47 theorbtwo Except we're allowing for a third section.
23:47 nothingmuch we're making use of a specification hole to skip forward from the /section till the match after the section happens
23:48 ingy seems like not a great idea
23:48 nothingmuch ingy: it's Q&D
23:48 ingy do you have an example of what you are doing
23:48 nothingmuch and it's just meant to sort of fit
23:48 * nothingmuch is working on an example that will make sense
23:49 ingy cool
23:49 ingy examples would help
23:49 ingy should we SEE triage on it?
23:49 nothingmuch a test for s06
23:49 nothingmuch that's a section name
23:49 nothingmuch we could
23:50 nothingmuch but i think this better be logged
23:50 nothingmuch Required parameters
23:50 nothingmuch Pairs may also be passed in adverbial pair notation:
23:50 nothingmuch    $comparison = numcmp(:x(2), :y(7));
23:50 nothingmuch    $comparison = numcmp(:y(7), :x(2));
23:50 nothingmuch that's part of that section
23:50 nothingmuch i'm thinking a corresponding test will have L<S06> at the top
23:51 nothingmuch and by the specific tests for adverbial pair notation, have a L<S06/Required parameters/adverbial pair notation/
23:51 nothingmuch s#/$/>#;
23:51 nothingmuch which will place the backlink right after the line that matches
23:51 ingy I see. You are addressing code blocks within the synopsis, and evaling the code as a test. right?
23:51 nothingmuch so that a user reading the synopsis will be able to look at the test cases for every specific example, subsection, etc
23:51 nothingmuch not necessarily code blocks
23:52 nothingmuch any arbitrary text, i think,
23:52 ingy why?
23:52 stevan ingy: evaling wont work, the examples are not always complete
23:52 ingy nod
23:52 nothingmuch the point of this shennanigan is to know the status of pugs
23:52 nothingmuch you read the synopses
23:52 nothingmuch and then you know what is tested
23:53 nothingmuch and from there you know what is working and what is not, and what is todo
23:53 nothingmuch a major requirement for this to be complete is that it's easy to maintain and create
23:53 ingy nothingmuch: I think a nopasted example or a wiki page is in order
23:53 nothingmuch ok, i'll whip this up
23:53 nothingmuch 3 minutes please
23:53 ingy tanks!
23:54 theorbtwo NM++
23:55 stevan yes, nothingmuch++
23:56 theorbtwo karma NM
23:56 jabbot theorbtwo: NM has karma of 1
23:56 theorbtwo karma nothingmuch
23:57 stevan karma theorbtwo
23:57 stevan hmmmm
23:57 nothingmuch perlbot karma stevan
23:57 perlbot Karma for stevan: 16
23:57 jabbot nothingmuch: theorbtwo  has neutral karma
23:58 nothingmuch jabbot: i didn't ask about theorbtwo
23:58 nothingmuch ;-)
23:58 stevan nothingmuch: dont argue with the software :P
23:58 nothingmuch that's an interesting bug, though =)
23:58 nothingmuch ok, i did a bit of hypothetical linking from t/subroutines/sub_named_params.t
23:59 stevan nothingmuch++
23:59 stevan perlbot karma nothingmuch
23:59 perlbot Karma for nothingmuch: 15
23:59 stevan perlbot karma theorbtwo
23:59 perlbot Karma for theorbtwo: 8
23:59 nothingmuch perlbot karma nopaste # lets see if this confuses it ;-)
23:59 perlbot nopaste # lets see if this confuses it ;-) doesn't have any karma

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