Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:05 ingy hola
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01:13 Limbic_Region is autrijus aware of http://rt.cpan.org/NoAuth/​Bugs.html?Dist=Perl6-Pugs
01:14 theorbtwo Hm, IIRC, bugs against your CPAN distros email you unless you tell it not to.
01:15 Limbic_Region oh - good
01:15 Limbic_Region means no one has ever reported any bugs against Tie::Hash::Sorted ;-)
01:16 * theorbtwo isn't that sure.
01:17 * Limbic_Region is sorry he missed today's productivity
01:17 Limbic_Region I was stuck in marathon meetings from hell all day
01:19 theorbtwo Uff.
01:19 theorbtwo I feel for you man.
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01:27 Schwern Ugg, darcs repo still not compiling.
01:27 Schwern Chasing modules from: src/Main.hs
01:27 Schwern src/Main.hs:
01:27 Schwern    Can't find module `Compile'
01:27 Schwern    (use -v to see a list of the files searched for)
01:27 Schwern make: *** [pugs] Error 1
01:28 Schwern src/Compile* didn't get imported into the darcs repo
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01:31 theorbtwo Use the SVN instead?
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01:32 Schwern Not the point. :)
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01:43 jabbot pugs - 1031 - Added examples/golf/tsanta.p6 (p6 versio
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02:03 jabbot pugs - 1032 - reorganizing the FileSpec module, I did
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03:48 * flw ?
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03:48 * flw /me
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04:03 Schwern Hey, can I be horrified by $?CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::POSITION ?
04:04 Schwern both by $?CALLER::CALLER::CALLER:: and by POSITION
04:05 Schwern I don't even know what $? means
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04:25 autrijus Schwern: $?FOO is just a variable
04:25 autrijus that is usually read only
04:26 autrijus $PACKAGE::?FOO does not work
04:26 autrijus it's spellled as $?PACKAGE::FOO
04:26 autrijus so there you have it.
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04:28 codesnik ew
04:28 autrijus better suggestions?
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04:29 codesnik autrijus: i didn't considered cons and pros..
04:29 codesnik but what about PACKAGE::$?FOO
04:29 codesnik assuming sigil is a part of name, this scheme don't involve any magic
04:30 autrijus true, it just means a little lookahead
04:30 autrijus p6l? :)
04:30 codesnik what?
04:30 jabbot codesnik: what is supposed to happen automagically
04:31 codesnik jabbot, yeah, still.. still.. dunno, it looks more sane and logical
04:31 jabbot codesnik: Please go on.
04:32 codesnik we either have sigils as some kind of data-type-purpose-whatever mark
04:32 codesnik either as part of name, just a convention
04:33 autrijus p6l means, "bring this suggestion to perl6-language" ? :)
04:33 codesnik autrijus: already did
04:33 autrijus k.
04:33 codesnik two or three months ago, no respond:)
04:34 autrijus that probably means it was considered even longer before
04:34 autrijus and was resolved to not do that.
04:34 * autrijus was not around for long, so can't remember any of this
04:35 * codesnik considers all such desision as some rudimentary perl5 habit
04:35 luqui about PACKAGE::$?FOO... we thought about that at one of the design meetings
04:35 luqui and agreed that it was more consistent
04:35 luqui but decided against it
04:35 codesnik why?
04:35 luqui for linguistic purposes
04:35 codesnik oh my
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04:36 autrijus luqui: elaborate?
04:36 luqui Sir Autrijus Tang, not Autrijus sir tang
04:37 luqui It's always sigil package name, even though the name includes the sigil in the symbol table...
04:37 luqui partly historical, partly because we want "this is a variable" out front where it's easy to see
04:37 autrijus so then secondary sigils just follows
04:37 autrijus for consistency's sake.
04:37 luqui yeah, $Foo::?BAR would be very strange
04:38 luqui (but then again, so would everything else we've been discussing)
04:38 autrijus perl 6 is very strange.
04:38 Alias_ Dangerously strange at times
04:38 Alias_ But then if it means we can access CPAN from python, I'm totally cool with it
04:39 autrijus Alias_: that day may be closer than you thought :)
04:39 codesnik one who learn perl6 would need to make his brain inside out. that's good, when it for sense, but in *that* case, language need to make it inside out again
04:39 autrijus Alias_: you saw --runparrot?
04:39 Alias_ I have far more allegiances to CPAN than to perl itself
04:39 Alias_ Although I really really like perl
04:39 autrijus hear hear.
04:39 autrijus <- won't be using perl if not for cpan
04:39 Alias_ It would just be a pity to throw away so much code
04:40 luqui useful, well modularized code.
04:40 autrijus that occasionally even works
04:40 Alias_ well testing, well documented... etc etc
04:40 Alias_ tested
04:40 Alias_ ... for the most part
04:40 Alias_ But then I imagine all of the top 10 CPAN people are in a similar position
04:41 luqui (isn't autrijus a top 10?)
04:41 Alias_ autrijus is 1.
04:41 luqui oh, cool
04:41 * Alias_ is 4-6 depending on the calculation method
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04:42 Alias_ But all of the top 10 are now at 50 packages or higher
04:43 obra game design?
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04:44 autrijus mm, which means we account for 20% of the module list
04:45 codesnik you know what. how python people could access all this sigilled stuff?
04:46 codesnik or whatever else parrot based language
04:46 autrijus they do it by using the sigilless interface
04:46 autrijus so scalars are called without "$"
04:46 autrijus arrays has this a_ prefix
04:46 autrijus or something
04:47 * codesnik feel some little unidentified doubts
04:50 cm the doubt starts with p.. and ends in ..arrot?
04:51 autrijus pizza_jar_cannot_rot?
04:51 autrijus err, doesn't end in arrot.
04:51 cm yeah, you lose :)
04:51 autrijus pizzajarrot then.
04:51 cm :|
04:51 cm you win.
04:52 ayrnieu pear-soup-with-carrots
04:52 autrijus "with parrot, we all win!"
04:52 codesnik you win and i'll have a pizza, all happy
04:53 autrijus yay.
04:54 cm donut
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04:55 codesnik i have strange feeling. like if i should go to psychiatrist, sit on sofa, and tell him all my perl6 expectations.
04:56 cm sounds like fun
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05:13 codesnik lique: a bit late comment, but "sir autrijus tang" isn't a good example.
05:14 codesnik we have: a name, a sigil, a package
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05:15 codesnik they could be mapped: name=>name, of course; package=>surname, place of birth(which is the same, basically); sigil is the most strange part.
05:15 codesnik proffession?
05:18 autrijus Ms., Mr., Prof.,
05:18 autrijus etc.
05:18 codesnik if we going to have linguistic parallels, then, it could look like:   Var Module, the $; or: $Var from Module
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05:18 codesnik i think it isn't something we should look for linguistic parallels,
05:19 autrijus the idea I think is for hinters to occur first.
05:19 autrijus @?PKG::foo
05:19 autrijus the @ is context hinter
05:19 autrijus ? is scope/effect hinter
05:19 autrijus those things are more "important at first glance" than the package name.
05:20 codesnik it was hinter. now it's more the part of name
05:20 codesnik but..
05:20 autrijus it was the part of name that is the hinter
05:23 codesnik if $location eq 'PKG::'
05:23 codesnik how we could write @?PKG::foo
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05:39 Schwern For the record, I wasn't horrified by $?  I was horrified by the CALLER::CALLER::CALLER::POSITION part
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05:41 obra sure. the previous version of that code actually propagated CALLER::POSITION all the way down
05:41 obra which was really bloody ugly before we had named params
05:41 obra it made the whole API insanely baroque
05:42 codesnik would something like $?::(caller(3))::POSITION work in perl6?
05:43 jabbot pugs - 1033 - Added my name
05:44 obra for the record, I agree that a hardcoded depth there is the wrong thing longterm
05:48 Alias_ CALLER::CALLER::et al is stupud
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05:51 * ayrnieu puzzles at: my @a = "hello" ~~ rx:perl5/[el]/; @a[0] == @a # bool::true
05:52 * ayrnieu plans to reread everything.
05:53 ayrnieu on the bright side, @a<0> crashes pugs =)
05:56 Schwern Alias:  Exxactly.
05:56 Schwern I'd expect caller(3){POSITION} or something
05:56 gaal ayrnieu: what are you getting?
05:58 ayrnieu maybe not exact: Fail: cannot cast into [VPair]: VArray (MkArray [VInt 1])
05:58 gaal that's not a crash, that's a syntax error :)
05:58 ayrnieu with "(\n" output.
05:58 ayrnieu that is also a crash, gaal =)
06:00 gaal to your thinking, why is this syntactic and what should it mean?
06:01 ayrnieu I don't think you are following.  Consider: http://sial.org/pbot/8517
06:02 ayrnieu I realize that what crashes pugs happens to be a syntax error.
06:02 gaal ah, *that* is a crash. :)
06:03 gaal ./pugs -e 'my @a=(1); eval "@a<0>.say"; "still alive".say'
06:04 gaal wanna add a test to t/pugsbugs?
06:04 ayrnieu Sure.
06:05 Khisanth ayrnieu: so you finally got svk working?
06:05 gaal thanks!
06:05 ayrnieu Khisanth - no -- I'm just using svn.
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06:13 jabbot pugs - 1034 - * Sample inline SHA1 module
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06:16 gaal !
06:16 ayrnieu ?
06:17 gaal though now that inlining from one language to another is becomming common, does the distinction between still src/ and lib/ make sense?
06:17 gaal ayrnieu, I was referring to ++autrijus' latest commit.
06:17 autrijus rehi lambdacamels
06:18 autrijus gaal: for C we're still going to have include/ etc
06:18 cm /\ /\ /o+_
06:18 autrijus gaal: I think it makes sense to respect each language's culture
06:18 autrijus gaal: if you don't want src/ just put all haskell code in DATA block
06:18 autrijus =begin DATA sha1
06:18 autrijus ...haskell code
06:18 autrijus =cut
06:18 autrijus and
06:18 Alias_ ugh
06:18 autrijus inline :Haskell(%=DATA<sha1>)
06:18 gaal sure, yes; if you're taking an existing module and "just" giving bindings for it
06:18 Alias_ actually... not so bad as putting shiteloads of actual data in it
06:19 Alias_ and far better than encoding data as perl
06:19 autrijus yes.
06:19 autrijus I think it's a legitimate use.
06:19 autrijus speaking as a GW-BASIC refugee that remembers DATA
06:19 gaal what if you have a projectof your own, want to write some of it in X and some in Y
06:20 * ayrnieu finally realizes that Test.pm's lives_ok is listed under FUTURE PLANS.
06:21 gaal ayrnieu: heh. though it would not have helped you anyway in this case.
06:21 autrijus so, I hope the inline primitive is ok with you folks.
06:22 ayrnieu oh, I just need eval =)
06:22 autrijus (ingy just arrived a few hours ago and we are hacking this)
06:22 gaal tres cool, autrijus
06:22 autrijus what does tres mean? :)
06:22 obra very
06:22 ayrnieu In French.
06:23 gaal ayrnieu, the test will pass when the hard parsefial is fixed, but until then you'll always get a crash
06:23 autrijus ah.
06:23 obra "tres chich"
06:23 obra chic
06:23 gaal not pronounced TRAY. :-p
06:25 gaal add syntax to have the builtin slurp from a file maybe?
06:25 gaal ....or a url? :)
06:26 autrijus slurp() already does a file
06:26 autrijus no?
06:26 autrijus pugs -e 'say slurp "README"'
06:26 autrijus worksforme.
06:26 autrijus you are free to add url support in Prim.hs.
06:26 gaal sure--i meant for inline
06:27 autrijus what's wrong with "inline :Haskell(=<file>)" ?
06:27 autrijus I like the consistency.
06:27 autrijus i.e. not doing an -e test on the parameter string
06:28 autrijus working on Foreign.hs now.
06:28 autrijus To the Sea, to the Sea! The white gulls are crying,
06:28 autrijus The wind is blowing, and the white foam is flying.
06:28 autrijus West, west away, the round sun is falling.
06:28 autrijus Grey ship, grey ship, do you hear them calling?
06:28 gaal hmm, yes, that's just dandy
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06:31 gaal (i'd forgotten =<file> worked on a filename too, silly me)
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06:34 ayrnieu OK, would this work for a test?  http://sial.org/pbot/8519
06:35 autrijus pugs is not always in path
06:35 autrijus neither is that test always interpreted
06:35 autrijus what does S02 say
06:35 autrijus about $^X?
06:35 autrijus hrm didn't say anything about it.
06:36 autrijus what should happen is for me to always make parsefail trappable.
06:39 ayrnieu ah, I see that you say what to do in t/README
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06:45 autrijus I'll call it External.hs instead of Foreign.hs
06:46 autrijus because haskell already has a Foreign call interface and I don't want to confuse myself :)
06:51 ayrnieu This should work: http://sial.org/pbot/8520
06:52 ayrnieu seeing as eval currently returns undef on syntax errors, as in: eval "1>>>3"
06:53 gaal ayrnieu++ # test case
06:53 gaal better add a description on the ok line too
06:53 jabbot pugs - 1036 - SHA1 should be ignored until it works
06:53 jabbot pugs - 1035 - * External.hs landed.
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06:54 gaal though, hm, in this case i can't think of a good one :)
06:54 ayrnieu http://sial.org/pbot/8521
06:54 autrijus ayrnieu: add yourself to AUTHORS.
06:55 gaal i meant in the ok() itself as the second parameter. but when this is in a file of its own it's pretty self-documenting.
06:56 * gaal has to go now
06:56 gaal see 'ya.
06:56 autrijus see ya!
06:56 ayrnieu thanks for the help, gaal =)
06:56 gaal thank you for the bug report :)
06:57 gaal &
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06:59 ayrnieu autrijus - what's my password, to commit the test and the AUTHORS change?
07:00 autrijus ayrnieu: your email?
07:00 autrijus (so I can make you a committer)
07:00 ayrnieu [email@hidden.address]
07:02 autrijus check your mail
07:03 crysflame morning, autrijus
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07:03 obra morning? it's 3pm
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07:04 crysflame aie
07:04 * crysflame learns
07:04 crysflame +8?
07:05 ayrnieu OK, changes commited =)
07:06 masak the internet time is @337 .beats :)
07:06 masak http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
07:07 ayrnieu ah, good to know that 'internet time' still exists.
07:07 masak i have it on my watch
07:07 masak never used it for anything :)
07:07 masak except pissing people off
07:08 masak "what time is it?" "uh, 338"
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07:23 jabbot pugs - 1038 - added self
07:23 jabbot pugs - 1037 - added parsefail test
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07:24 crysflame masak++ # heh
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07:48 nothingmuch morning
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07:51 masak morning? it's @367 :)
07:51 nothingmuch internet time is soooo 1999
07:51 nothingmuch ;-)
07:52 * nothingmuch is going to do currying, and then see what he can do about those 100 subtests
07:52 * masak just realized that his watch actually is from 1999 ;)
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08:36 * nothingmuch thinks he got it, and made bindParams much more readable in the process
08:37 nothingmuch a funny side effect is that given:
08:37 nothingmuch sub foo ($x, *@slurp);
08:38 nothingmuch sorry
08:38 nothingmuch sub foo ($x, +%slurp)
08:38 nothingmuch foo(x => "1", x => "2")
08:38 nothingmuch will yield "1" in $x, and x => "2" in %slurp
08:39 cnhackTNT is now known as cnhackTNT|away
08:40 nothingmuch we have embedded p5? my god...
08:40 autrijus we will also have embedded haskell in another hour.
08:41 autrijus and embedded C.
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08:41 nothingmuch ooh
08:41 autrijus see ext/SHA1/
08:41 autrijus pugs is suddenly very socialable with other languages.
08:41 nothingmuch my time is very limited
08:41 nothingmuch so i will err, delay
08:41 autrijus sure!
08:43 nothingmuch haskell's type system is soo good
08:43 nothingmuch the day before
08:43 nothingmuch yesterday i thought it was sadistic
08:43 nothingmuch but it's becoming so much more coherent now
08:44 nothingmuch not yesterday, yesterday i did nothing at all
08:44 obra "perhaps the pugs needs to be fixed"
08:44 nothingmuch autrijus: how tight is p5 integration?
08:44 autrijus nothingmuch: not very tight at all
08:45 autrijus it just does simple eval() that preserves context
08:45 autrijus no value transformation yet
08:45 nothingmuch do unresolved calls go to p5? i bet the other way around is much harder
08:45 nothingmuch ah
08:45 autrijus eval_perl5()
08:45 autrijus is the only bridge right now
08:45 autrijus once we have value casting then we have Inline::GHC.
08:45 autrijus and Inline::Pugs.
08:45 autrijus imagine the sickitude!
08:45 nothingmuch i would love Inline::GHC
08:45 autrijus sure. it is actually not that hard
08:45 nothingmuch i think haskell will be very very useful for me, once i "get it"
08:45 autrijus just not on my priority list
08:46 autrijus if you have a larger window of time we may pair on it
08:46 autrijus but not this week
08:46 * nothingmuch doesn't know Inline::, or C (well, that is), or p5 guts, or ghc guts
08:46 nothingmuch so i doubt i
08:46 nothingmuch i'm useful =)
08:46 nothingmuch oh compile already! i want to see if it's worked!
08:47 * nothingmuch rereads the sentance, decides that it's wrong, and then changes his mind again.
08:47 autrijus eh.?
08:47 nothingmuch it's worked
08:47 nothingmuch it has worked
08:47 nothingmuch but i thought it was wrong for a second
08:48 nothingmuch well, this is an improvement
08:49 nothingmuch pairs not working yet?
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08:49 autrijus not working how what?
08:50 nothingmuch in params
08:50 autrijus I think it works and is parsed for nameds
08:50 nothingmuch hmm
08:50 autrijus but it gets passed in not as .val
08:50 autrijus but as a pair
08:50 autrijus which is wrong and caused obra problem
08:50 autrijus so seeing you're already there, maybe you can attempt a fix
08:50 autrijus nothingmuch++ # in advance
08:50 nothingmuch well, passing in as a pair makes sense to me
08:50 nothingmuch how was it a problem?
08:51 nothingmuch and how will a val look in a pair?
08:51 autrijus sub foo ($bar) { say $bar }
08:51 autrijus foo( bar => 1 ); # needs to print 1, not "bar1"
08:51 nothingmuch right
08:51 autrijus you can get a val out from a pair obj by doing
08:51 nothingmuch bindSomeParams will get a pair?
08:51 autrijus snd . vCast
08:51 nothingmuch i can unwrap that
08:51 autrijus yeah
08:51 nothingmuch ok
08:51 nothingmuch what is unPair?
08:52 autrijus it matches the args
08:52 autrijus to see if they are pairs
08:52 nothingmuch map unPair foo
08:52 autrijus and if yes, returns k/v pairs
08:52 nothingmuch k/v pairs? eh?
08:54 nothingmuch hold on, i need to grok bindNames
08:55 nothingmuch i don't understand this: (bound, exps') = foldr doBind ([], []) (map unPair exps)
08:55 autrijus ok
08:55 nothingmuch mpa unPair exps
08:55 nothingmuch what does that return?
08:55 autrijus it returns a list of k/v
08:55 nothingmuch a list of....
08:55 nothingmuch which is?
08:55 nothingmuch [ key, val, key, val ]?
08:55 autrijus unPair :: Exp -> (String, Exp)
08:55 autrijus so
08:55 nothingmuch oh
08:56 autrijus [(k, v), (k, v)]
08:56 nothingmuch it returns a list of haskell pairs
08:56 nothingmuch ok, that's good
08:56 autrijus yes.
08:56 autrijus now doBind takes that
08:56 autrijus and process each in turn
08:56 autrijus starting from ([],[])
08:56 autrijus and fill in things.
08:56 autrijus (assuming you grok folr)
08:56 autrijus foldr
08:56 nothingmuch i sort of do
08:57 autrijus foldr replaces the final [] of a list with an init value
08:57 autrijus in this case ([],[])
08:57 autrijus and replaces all the intermediate : of a list with a function
08:57 autrijus in this case doBind
08:57 autrijus and evaluate the expression.
08:57 nothingmuch yah
08:58 nothingmuch so doBind is getting a pair of empty arrays, and a value of the list
08:58 nothingmuch and then it's getting on the next iteration, the value it returned last time
08:58 nothingmuch and the next value from the list
08:59 nothingmuch of haskell kv pairs
08:59 nothingmuch ok, and doBind supposedly finds a param whose name is the fst of that pair
08:59 nothingmuch and then makes a new pair, (foundParam, snd pair)
08:59 nothingmuch right?
08:59 nothingmuch and accumilates things it can't bind in exps
09:00 nothingmuch Just prm <- find ((name ==) . tail . paramName) prms
09:00 nothingmuch will run the succeeding line only if there is such a param
09:00 nothingmuch which will prepend (prm, exp) : bound
09:00 nothingmuch read : as to
09:00 nothingmuch and if find has a Nothing
09:01 nothingmuch then exp is tacked on to exps instead
09:01 nothingmuch right?
09:01 nothingmuch i think unPair is called too late
09:01 nothingmuch it should be done in the begining of bindSomeParams
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09:05 nothingmuch ah
09:05 nothingmuch not true, because isPair is isVPair, actually
09:05 nothingmuch autrijus: i don't see where the problem is
09:13 nothingmuch oh crap, i see what's going on
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09:13 nothingmuch sub foo ($x, $y);
09:13 nothingmuch foo(y => 4);
09:13 nothingmuch $x = y => 5;
09:13 nothingmuch i have no clue where to stick a trace
09:14 nothingmuch oh! i think i see
09:14 nothingmuch (name ==)
09:14 nothingmuch because it's a perl pair
09:14 nothingmuch then name won't really be a string
09:14 nothingmuch it's an exp
09:14 nothingmuch i think
09:14 nothingmuch so that never is true
09:14 nothingmuch unless it's supposed to generate a type error
09:16 nothingmuch args: [App "&infix:=>" [Syn "cxt" [Val (VStr "Str"),App "&infix:~" [Val (VStr "x"),Val (VStr "")] []],Val (VInt 1)] []]
09:16 nothingmuch this will attempt to bind x => 1
09:16 nothingmuch eventually unPair should yield (k, v), right?
09:16 nothingmuch which in this case applies infix ~ to [val (VStr "x") ... ]
09:16 nothingmuch and applie s the context to that
09:17 nothingmuch and applies infix => to "x", and Val (VInt 1)
09:17 nothingmuch and unPair's 'vCast k' is supposed to make all that happen, right?
09:17 nothingmuch why isn't it?
09:18 nothingmuch i get, in the resulting binding:
09:18 nothingmuch [(Param {...paramName = "$x"...}, App "&infix:=>" [Syn "cxt" [Val (VStr "Str"),App "&infix:~" [Val (VStr "x"),Val (VStr "")] []],Val (VInt 1)] []), ...]
09:19 nothingmuch which means that the pair is not evaluated at all
09:23 jabbot pugs - 1039 - supply default values only when vinalizi
09:24 marcusT has joined #perl6
09:28 nothingmuch s/vinalizing/finalizing/... sorry!
09:30 muhmuh________ has joined #perl6
09:33 jabbot pugs - 1040 - * sample makefile
09:36 Schwern has joined #perl6
09:37 Juerd "Larry          
09:37 Juerd    hemmed for a bit, but decided to stick with true in the end   "
09:37 Juerd That's not the way I read the true thread
09:39 nothingmuch me neither
09:40 Schwern That's not the way I read it either.  I didn't read it.
09:41 Schwern It would be more like " "
09:41 malaire has joined #perl6
09:41 rgs hey Schwern
09:42 Schwern Hey
09:43 jabbot pugs - 1041 - * generated binding file
09:46 firzen has joined #perl6
09:48 firzen Does the bin package ok now?
09:53 firzen Is the win32 bin package ok now?
09:54 lumi_ Hi, does anybody else have insane problems with t/magicals/caller_pos.t?
09:55 nnunley has joined #perl6
09:59 nothingmuch lumi_: insane?
09:59 nothingmuch i sort of grok that code, i might be able to help
09:59 lumi_ Well
09:59 clkao nnunley!
10:00 lumi_ The tests never finish, because that one just takes all the memory it can get
10:00 nothingmuch ah
10:00 nothingmuch i'll check
10:00 nothingmuch shit! i comitted traces
10:00 lumi_ I saw it grow to 600m before I killed it, I don't think it was planning on stopping
10:01 nothingmuch i'll try to figure out what's going on
10:01 nothingmuch latest R?
10:01 nnunley clkao:
10:02 lumi_ Yes
10:02 nnunley clkao:  I made it here!
10:02 clkao nnunley: are you being treated well?
10:02 nnunley clkao: Only minor hazing. :)
10:02 lumi_ Looks like it dies in 2nd test
10:03 jabbot pugs - 1042 - Remove calls to trace (sorry everyone!)
10:04 nnunley I leave for a couple of weeks and miss the bootstrap phase of pugs, almost
10:04 lumi_ The indirect interpolation, whatever that means, works
10:05 Schwern Norm!
10:06 nnunley Schwern!
10:17 lumi_ IT seems to have stopped doing that, could it have been the traces?
10:17 lumi_ That's passing strange
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10:23 autrijus nothingmuch: it's broken yes.
10:23 autrijus unPair/isPair that is.
10:23 jabbot pugs - 1043 - * require_haskell() landed. dependency a
10:26 autrijus so, eval_haskell() will come next.
10:26 autrijus then a GHC.pir.
10:26 autrijus which completes the runtime side of bootstrapping.
10:30 Juerd autrijus: How would you describe the outcome of the s/true/better name/ thread?
10:30 autrijus Juerd: the outcome is that it seems that true() is a better name.
10:30 Juerd autrijus: The summarizer thinks larry stuck with true, while my interpretation is that we're having so now.
10:30 Juerd Oh.
10:30 Juerd Weird.
10:30 autrijus and pugs is back to true().
10:30 autrijus (6.0.12)
10:30 Juerd I think I missed some messages then
10:30 autrijus that may be the case
10:31 Juerd What were the reasons for true?
10:31 autrijus I don't really want to think about it :)
10:31 Juerd I see
10:31 Juerd I'll try google groups tonight
10:31 muhmuh_________ has joined #perl6
10:32 autrijus nod
10:32 Jonathan__ has joined #perl6
10:33 jabbot pugs - 1044 - local Makefile.PL
10:34 autrijus hi Jonathan__!
10:34 autrijus your binary build of pugs seems to be borken
10:34 muhmuh________ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:35 Jonathan__ Hi
10:35 saorge` has joined #perl6
10:36 Jonathan__ Yeah, it seems that the build overall is broken on Win32 at the moment.
10:36 autrijus uh?
10:36 autrijus it works for me.
10:36 luqui *bling* (that's an appearing noise)
10:37 pasteling "mj" at 147.229.221.107 pasted "WinXP, nmake failed" (33 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8528
10:37 Jonathan__ Just did latest checkout and...
10:37 Jonathan__ Could not find module `Internals.RuntimeLoader':
10:38 autrijus oops, forgot to add
10:38 autrijus fixed.
10:38 autrijus try again?
10:38 autrijus r1046
10:39 mj seems ok
10:39 autrijus cool!
10:39 autrijus I'll bbiab.
10:39 Jonathan__ Yup, it's building now. Working build should hit my site in a minute or so. :)
10:40 autrijus woot.
10:41 luqui is it just me, or was that pugsbugs 'foo\' test script very broken?
10:42 saorge has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
10:42 luqui and is it still...
10:43 jabbot pugs - 1046 - * add missing module
10:43 jabbot pugs - 1045 - * add require -version support stub
10:44 mj nmake done, some warnings: In function `svLJ_entry':  ghc3624.hc:829: warning: implicit declaration of function `initLinker' . . .
10:44 nothingmuch autrijus: so which is broken?
10:44 nothingmuch isPair? or unPair/
10:45 nothingmuch and how?
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10:46 autrijus I'm not quite sure :-/
10:46 nothingmuch how would I go about testing it?
10:46 nothingmuch i could ghci -Isrc src/Bind.hs, but what would I feed them?
10:47 luqui I deleted pugsbugs/string_escaping.t .  It was testing incorrect semantics (and the correct ones are already tested plenty)
10:48 autrijus luqui: thanks
10:48 autrijus mj: known problem, don't worry 'bout it
10:48 autrijus nothingmuch: just "svn up", "make ghci"
10:48 autrijus and type
10:49 autrijus eval "sub foo (+$x) { say $x }  foo(x => 1)"
10:49 nothingmuch i could take the outputs of Show
10:49 autrijus that will then output "x1"
10:49 autrijus this is wrong
10:49 autrijus we want 1
10:49 autrijus that's it.
10:49 nothingmuch yeah, i know
10:49 nothingmuch i broke it down further
10:49 autrijus good.
10:49 nothingmuch but it's hard for me to say whether the VCast in unPair is not evaling somehow
10:50 nothingmuch or if isPair is broken, and thus unPair is not called at all
10:50 nothingmuch but it's one of those problems
10:50 autrijus just trace and see? :-/
10:50 autrijus <- needs to work on $real_work right now
10:50 nothingmuch i'll try
10:50 nothingmuch but it's a bit hard for me to trace
10:50 nothingmuch it being haskell and all that
10:50 autrijus sorry for not being very helpful
10:51 autrijus trace() is your friend
10:51 autrijus we have it imported in Internal.hs
10:53 jabbot pugs - 1048 - * make ghci
10:53 jabbot pugs - 1047 - Removed bogus bug test.
10:55 nothingmuch ook, i introduced some crap
10:55 nothingmuch slrupy bindings should be appended
10:55 nothingmuch smoetimes they appear twice
10:55 * nothingmuch will fix
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11:01 tomyan autrijus: you probably know this, but pugs now runs fine on linux on sparc
11:02 nothingmuch how do i "do" an exp?
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11:03 autrijus tomyan: woot.
11:03 autrijus nothingmuch: do?
11:03 tomyan yeah
11:03 jabbot autrijus: do is pretty magic, yes
11:03 autrijus val <- evalExp exp
11:03 nothingmuch errm
11:03 nothingmuch that's my last guess at a solution
11:04 nothingmuch ok
11:04 nothingmuch unPair (App "&infix:=>" k exp) = (vCast (castV k), exp)
11:04 nothingmuch how do i DWIM?
11:04 nothingmuch do i unpair () = do
11:04 autrijus what do you want k to become?
11:04 nothingmuch a String
11:04 autrijus you can also make unpair monadic.
11:04 nothingmuch should unpair be evalExp'ing?
11:04 autrijus str <- fromVal k
11:04 autrijus err.
11:04 nothingmuch i think this is because of that fix
11:05 autrijus let me think real quickly
11:05 autrijus yes.
11:05 nothingmuch that autoquotes lefthandside
11:05 autrijus it should do that.
11:05 autrijus it should evalExp k.
11:05 nothingmuch unPair (App "&infix:=>" k exp) = do
11:05 nothingmuch    kVal <- evalExp k
11:05 nothingmuch    return (vCast kVal, exp)
11:05 nothingmuch right?
11:06 nothingmuch do i just 'import Eval' at the top?
11:06 nothingmuch Module imports form a cycle for modules:
11:06 nothingmuch        Eval Bind
11:06 nothingmuch =/
11:07 nothingmuch does Bind.hs need to be merged with Eval.hs?
11:08 nothingmuch ?
11:09 shapr has joined #perl6
11:09 autrijus er. uhm.
11:12 nothingmuch #haskell people say i'll need to merge
11:12 nothingmuch oh, shapr is here, he said that =)
11:12 autrijus no.
11:12 autrijus you can do this instead
11:12 autrijus move evalExp into AST.
11:12 nothingmuch oh my
11:12 autrijus that's the correct course of action.
11:13 autrijus just move it from Eval to AST.
11:13 nothingmuch ok, why not =)
11:13 autrijus it's nothing much =)
11:13 nothingmuch it's bound to do less damage than i already have ;-)
11:13 shapr punny
11:14 nothingmuch putting it just above findSym
11:14 nothingmuch it looks err, like a logical place
11:14 * nothingmuch noticed he is very hesitent
11:14 nothingmuch 'err' and 'uhm' all the time
11:16 shapr aha - http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users​_guide/separate-compilation.html#mutual-recursion
11:17 shapr yup, just as troublesome as I remember.
11:21 nothingmuch hmm
11:21 nothingmuch        Inferred type: Eval Val
11:21 nothingmuch how do i make that into a Val?
11:22 shapr eval it?
11:22 * shapr is guessing
11:22 nothingmuch that's after i've evalExp'ed it =)
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11:39 mj win32 semm ok - r1048, WinXP, nmake, ActivePerl - 100/2809 subtests failed, 96.44% okay.
11:40 nothingmuch 100 subtests is the correct number, IIRC
11:43 jabbot pugs - 1049 -  r15205@kybristedi:  gugod | 2005-03-23
11:46 gugod stevan: about ghc version discussed early , turns out it was my fault. I didn't noticed that I have some local modification which make compilation failed. ghc 6.4 compiled fine
11:49 nothingmuch what is the syntax i am trying to get?
11:49 nothingmuch unPair pair@(App "&infix:=>" _ _) = do
11:49 nothingmuch i want pair to be that type
11:52 Schwern has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
11:53 shapr Oh that was the SchwernLikesDarcs guy.
11:53 nothingmuch yup
11:53 nothingmuch he's really a perl guy
11:53 cnhackTNT|away is now known as cnhackTNT
11:54 nothingmuch http://www.perl.org/yapc/2002/movies/themovie/
11:54 nothingmuch he's the guy talking about farmers
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12:25 kungfuftr is there a way to get a list of todo tests?
12:25 nothingmuch grep -r todo_ t/
12:26 kungfuftr =0)
12:27 kungfuftr well... grep -r todo_ t/ | grep -v .svn
12:27 kungfuftr 2113 apparently
12:28 nothingmuch =)
12:29 shapr kungfuftr: http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/kung.fu.jpg
12:29 nothingmuch wtf?!
12:30 shapr sorry, completely off-topic
12:30 muhmuh_________ has joined #perl6
12:30 nothingmuch no, i'm really curious =)
12:30 nothingmuch do you know the origin of that pic?
12:30 shapr nope
12:30 nothingmuch it just doesn't make sense
12:30 nothingmuch oh well
12:31 shapr looks cute, I dunno if it's gimp'd or not.
12:32 shapr has quit IRC ("worktime!")
12:33 kungfuftr anyone know if mugwump made it to tapei yet?
12:34 nothingmuch gah!
12:34 nothingmuch how do you make an anything out of an Eval Val?
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13:12 elmex oi
13:13 jabbot pugs - 1051 - examples.t works now.
13:13 jabbot pugs - 1050 - Added some new tests.
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13:18 Limbic_Region iblech - you about?
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13:20 iblech Limbic_Region: ? (don't understand)
13:21 tomyan has left "Kopete 0.9.2 : http://kopete.kde.org"
13:21 Limbic_Region oh - was just asking if you are around
13:21 iblech Limbic_Region: ah, yes, I am :)
13:22 Limbic_Region japhy recently was on a quest to pick n distinct colors and I remember the screen shot from iblechbot
13:22 Limbic_Region he has since solved his problem, but I wanted to ask what you used anyway (in case it was different)
13:22 nothingmuch that's a nice problem
13:23 iblech Yes, the color algorithm iblechbot uses is different
13:23 * nothingmuch thinks about distributing based on distance
13:23 iblech First, the whole log is read to find out which nicks were online at the same time
13:23 Limbic_Region iblech - is the source public?
13:24 iblech Yes, an old version is online ATM, will upload the current one, a sec.
13:24 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=441359 # is where japhy posted what he used, feel free to reply if you have some insight (which I thought you might)
13:27 iblech http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/iblechbot.tbz2 -- the interesting parts are weblog.pl (the webserver) and Heinz/Colors.pm
13:28 iblech Then, an interference graph is created, bases on the information of step (1)
13:28 iblech And this interference graph is then collapsed to the minimal number of colors necessary
13:28 iblechbot has joined #perl6
13:29 Limbic_Region thanks - will let japhy know if you don't post
13:29 iblech http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=384347 might be interesting, too
13:29 iblech I'll do
13:30 bluefeet has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
13:36 Limbic_Region iblech - I remember that thread but I didn't remember you as the author
13:37 elmex yaho, wanna get some
13:39 iblech http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=441758
13:40 iblech changes topic to: 101 subtests fail | pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m
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14:17 autrijus nothingmuch: still there?
14:17 autrijus nothingmuch: how do you get an Int out from an IO Int?
14:17 autrijus by binding it!
14:17 autrijus int <- io_int_thing
14:18 autrijus so, to get an Exp from an Eval Exp, you do
14:18 autrijus exp <- eval_exp_thing
14:18 nothingmuch autrijus: uhuh
14:19 nothingmuch ok
14:19 scw autrijus: I always have ghc check my code when Monad is involved.. :p
14:20 autrijus :p
14:20 nothingmuch so what does it really look like?
14:20 * scw never knows if it's correct.
14:20 autrijus val <- evalExp exp
14:20 autrijus str <- fromVal val
14:20 nothingmuch unpair (App "&infix:=>" key value) = do
14:20 nothingmuch k' <- evalExp key
14:20 nothingmuch value <- k'
14:20 nothingmuch ...?
14:20 autrijus no
14:20 jabbot nothingmuch: ... ¬O³o¼Ë¤l¶Ü
14:20 nothingmuch it doesn't make sense to me
14:20 autrijus value <- fromVal k'
14:20 nothingmuch oh
14:21 autrijus str <- fromVal k'
14:21 autrijus int <- fromVal k'
14:21 autrijus it all works
14:21 nothingmuch what is App "infix:=>" btw
14:21 nothingmuch it seems to be, err, weird
14:21 Jonathan__ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:21 nothingmuch it has a dangling thing
14:21 autrijus it is just this pair constructor thing.
14:21 nothingmuch the second element, which i dunno what it does
14:21 nothingmuch i know, it's a perlop
14:21 nothingmuch App seems to want 3 things
14:21 nothingmuch what to apply (=>)
14:21 nothingmuch apply on what (a list with two elems)
14:22 nothingmuch and ....?
14:22 autrijus and a series of arguments not related to invocation
14:22 autrijus in this case, always empty.
14:22 nothingmuch ah
14:22 autrijus App op invs args
14:22 nothingmuch ok
14:22 nothingmuch since => is a multisub
14:22 nothingmuch right?
14:22 autrijus right.
14:22 autrijus it is a multisub with 2 invocants.
14:22 nothingmuch i might actually grok pugs internals at some point ;-)
14:23 autrijus you already do :)
14:23 nothingmuch much more hopeful than p5 guts
14:23 autrijus that is very true.
14:23 autrijus p5 guts is like impossible.
14:23 autrijus you can understand a code path
14:23 autrijus but you can't really reason about the whole of it.
14:23 autrijus or, maybe you can, but I cannot.
14:24 * nothingmuch can't
14:24 nothingmuch tried reading some parts
14:24 nothingmuch knowlege is too spread out, i think
14:25 nothingmuch a vCast is a context sensitive thing
14:25 nothingmuch making a <context expects this type> out of a Val?
14:26 nothingmuch unPair (App "&infix:=>" (keyExp : valExp : []) _) = do
14:26 nothingmuch keyExp' <- evalExp keyExp
14:26 nothingmuch yields: Couldn't match `(,) String' against `ContT Val (ReaderT Env IO)'
14:26 nothingmuch        Expected type: (String, t)
14:26 nothingmuch        Inferred type: Eval Val
14:26 nothingmuch In the application `evalExp keyExp'
14:26 nothingmuch retrospectively nopaste =P
14:26 autrijus er.
14:27 autrijus you want to return (Sting, Exp)
14:27 nothingmuch yes
14:27 autrijus make it
14:27 autrijus Eval (String, Exp)
14:27 nothingmuch but i'm not returning till much later
14:27 autrijus because you are now inside the eval monad
14:27 autrijus and you can't escape the eval monad.
14:28 nothingmuch unPair should return Eval (String, Exp)?
14:28 autrijus if you to the eval inside there, yes.
14:28 nothingmuch ok
14:28 autrijus but that makes the whole Bind.hs monadic.
14:28 autrijus which is sort of what I wished to avoid.
14:28 nothingmuch i think it's unavoidable
14:28 nothingmuch it's a thing that happens
14:28 autrijus subcall( [$name1, $name2](rand 2) => 3 )
14:29 nothingmuch it takes avlues
14:29 autrijus yeah.
14:29 nothingmuch and it connects them
14:29 nothingmuch you could pre unPair, before actually binding
14:29 nothingmuch i think
14:29 autrijus I think that makes a lot of sense.
14:29 autrijus when you are at the caller site
14:29 autrijus first examine the pairs
14:29 autrijus and eval the key part
14:29 nothingmuch what does, monadic binding, or preunpairing?
14:29 autrijus preunpairing
14:29 nothingmuch then bind?
14:29 nothingmuch zh
14:29 nothingmuch ah
14:29 autrijus then do a nonmonadic bind
14:29 autrijus so you always have pure Val
14:29 nothingmuch how do you preunpair?
14:30 nothingmuch you obviously have the thing that does App unPair args
14:30 nothingmuch (and invs)
14:30 nothingmuch i think i can handle it
14:30 nothingmuch but who does App
14:30 nothingmuch Eval's apply? applyExp?
14:30 autrijus reduce
14:30 autrijus but you just eval them.
14:30 nothingmuch ok
14:30 autrijus using evalExp
14:30 autrijus so basically
14:30 autrijus extend isPair
14:30 autrijus to recognize App "&infix:=>" as well
14:30 nothingmuch how icky will this be in the long term?
14:31 autrijus I think it will be just fine.
14:31 nothingmuch isPair (App "&infix:=>" _ _)     = True
14:31 nothingmuch that much I did ;-)
14:31 nothingmuch but actually we don't want that, do we?
14:31 autrijus good. did you check it in?
14:31 autrijus we probably want just that.
14:31 nothingmuch no, because that causes unPair to be fatal =)
14:31 nothingmuch in that case bindNamed can't work
14:31 clkao autrijus: what do i expect today?
14:31 nothingmuch because it has Exps
14:31 autrijus what?
14:31 jabbot autrijus: what is App "infix:=>" btw
14:31 nothingmuch when it should be getting pairs
14:32 nothingmuch gugod owns jabbot, right?
14:32 autrijus right. you are free to ignore it
14:32 nothingmuch i think i will try to feed it defs that contain 'gugod--' ;-)
14:33 nothingmuch it's RSS commit announce is useful
14:33 autrijus nothingmuch: let me try
14:33 nothingmuch but everything else is an annoyance
14:33 autrijus a sec.
14:33 nothingmuch let you try what, the pair fixing code?
14:34 autrijus I checked in the App &infix code.
14:34 autrijus r1052
14:34 nothingmuch i could have told you that borks ;-)
14:35 nothingmuch in fact, i did =D
14:35 nothingmuch i think it's not the solution we want
14:35 autrijus ./pugs -e sub foo (+$n) { say $n } foo( n => 3 )
14:35 nothingmuch either isPair and unPair take the same thing
14:35 autrijus now says "3" for me.
14:35 nothingmuch ah
14:35 nothingmuch then what is the diff, really?
14:35 nothingmuch it's not just isPair that was fixed, was it?
14:35 autrijus isPair (App "&infix:=>" [(Val _), _] [])   = True
14:35 autrijus unPair (App "&infix:=>" [(Val k), exp] []) = (vCast k, exp)
14:36 autrijus now that only works for simple values as keys.
14:36 autrijus $n => 3
14:36 autrijus will totally bork.
14:36 nothingmuch ah
14:36 autrijus so pre unpairing is still needed
14:36 nothingmuch that's what I meant =)
14:36 autrijus just want to make clear the point :)
14:36 nothingmuch ok =)
14:36 nothingmuch isn't messing with App ... after preUnpair a violation of separation of concerns?
14:37 nothingmuch i mean, we both expect it to be dealt with, and deal with it ourselves
14:37 nothingmuch anyway, i'll see what i can do for preunpairing
14:37 nothingmuch is there any chance of it breaking anything?
14:37 autrijus the correct thing is to preunparirng
14:37 autrijus and preevaluation into simple Syn "=>" pairs
14:37 autrijus that guarantees a simple Val in the LHS
14:37 nothingmuch why syn pairs?
14:37 nothingmuch is that what a VPair is?
14:37 autrijus just so Bind.hs knows how to deal?
14:38 autrijus VPair is Val, Val
14:38 autrijus we want Val, Exp
14:38 nothingmuch in the long term, too?
14:38 autrijus you can arguably turn Exp into Val VThunk
14:38 autrijus and get Val Val
14:38 autrijus in that case sure, make them simple VPair vals
14:38 autrijus is the long term best solution
14:38 autrijus because that decouples the caller site with binding site.
14:38 nothingmuch i believe in the long term
14:38 nothingmuch so this is the aforementioned Param, Exp to Param, Val fix
14:39 nothingmuch which i don't know where to start doing
14:39 nothingmuch =)
14:39 elmex autrijus++
14:39 elmex nothingmuch++
14:39 autrijus nothingmuch: sure :)
14:39 elmex so cute
14:39 autrijus what is so cute?
14:39 nothingmuch cute?
14:39 Dabian has joined #perl6
14:39 Dabian Emacs rocks!
14:39 autrijus and yes, that is the aforementioned fix.
14:40 autrijus greetings Dabian.
14:40 autrijus or rather, closely tied to.
14:40 nothingmuch autrijus: i'll work on it then,
14:40 * nothingmuch reads some more haskell...
14:40 Odin-LAP Dabian: Does it?
14:40 autrijus nothingmuch++
14:40 autrijus nothingmuch++
14:40 autrijus nothingmuch++
14:40 nothingmuch Eval.hs's reduce, and apply is what I want, right?
14:40 nothingmuch or rather, the callers of apply
14:40 Odin-LAP :D
14:40 autrijus yup.
14:40 nothingmuch perlbot: highest karma
14:40 perlbot The top 5 karma entries: autrijus: 38, nothingmuch: 36, ~brad2901: 26, stevan: 22, C: 22
14:40 nothingmuch damn
14:40 nothingmuch autrijus is still ahead
14:40 nothingmuch two days ago i had an edge of 1 ;-)
14:40 Dabian Odin-LAP: Yes!
14:41 autrijus :p
14:41 pjcj Dabian: pugscc --elisp works?
14:41 autrijus see, that parrot compile things is popular
14:41 Odin-LAP Dabian: Pffth. I don't believe you.
14:41 autrijus ooh. want to work on it?
14:41 autrijus --elisp that is
14:41 autrijus that will so rock
14:41 Dabian pjcj: try it :)
14:41 theorbtwo I'm afraid I'm to blame... but I think --elisp would indeed so rock.
14:42 Odin-LAP Hm.
14:42 elmex you're so cute
14:42 nothingmuch that should allow for actual syntax highlighting by means of embedded perl, right?
14:42 Odin-LAP That'd be ... interesting, to say the least.
14:42 elmex C++
14:42 nothingmuch elmex: some people might find that offensive ;-)
14:42 autrijus nothingmuch: sure
14:42 elmex what is about C++?
14:42 nothingmuch C-- is also a nice backend
14:42 nothingmuch in theory
14:42 autrijus elmex: we alreay compile to GHC
14:42 autrijus which compiles to C--
14:42 autrijus which compiles to C
14:42 elmex nothingmuch: that wasn't offensive. being cute is a very good thing
14:43 nothingmuch i find it cute, being cute and all
14:43 nothingmuch in fact, i look cute, and try to act cute, and stuff
14:43 elmex ;)
14:43 elmex cool
14:43 elmex err..cute ;)
14:43 stevan autrijus: any timeline on the s/// perl5 regexp support?
14:43 Odin-LAP 'cute', you say.
14:43 nothingmuch but that's because i realized early on i have no chances at looking cool
14:43 jabbot pugs - 1052 - * pair fixing code
14:43 nothingmuch or buff
14:44 nothingmuch =)
14:44 lumi_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
14:44 * Odin-LAP just looks like an idiot.
14:44 Odin-LAP Easiest thing ever. Takes no effort at all. ;)
14:44 autrijus stevan: you want backref to $1 and $2?
14:44 autrijus and s///g?
14:44 autrijus give me a priority list? :)
14:45 autrijus on s/// that is
14:45 stevan the backref is alreayd there I think
14:45 stevan at least it seems to work :)
14:45 autrijus right.
14:45 autrijus s/(foo)/$1/g though
14:45 autrijus is another matter.
14:45 stevan s/// would be really really really nice
14:45 stevan I am not so concerned about s/(foo)/$1/g
14:45 kensanata has joined #perl6
14:46 Odin-LAP Erm.
14:46 stevan thats nice and all, but could wait (at least for my purposes)
14:46 Odin-LAP That'd be s:g/// now, wouldn't it?
14:46 stevan Odin-LAP: yes
14:46 * nothingmuch is half way through his 3rd liter of water today
14:46 autrijus sure.
14:46 * nothingmuch is impressed with himself
14:46 Odin-LAP nothingmuch: What, only three?
14:46 stevan s:g:perl5/// would be nice
14:46 theorbtwo s:perl5:g///, to be more specific.
14:46 autrijus is it still bound by ~~ ?
14:47 nothingmuch Odin-LAP: i tend to drink too little
14:47 metaperl nothingmuch, why drinking so much water?
14:47 autrijus adverbs order doesn't matter
14:47 stevan bound by? I am sure I understand?
14:47 nothingmuch metaperl: i live in the desert, and i didn't drink enough yesterday
14:47 metaperl nothingmuch, where do you live?
14:47 Odin-LAP autrijus: I don't think any other operator would fit.
14:47 nothingmuch Beer Sheva (suburb of thereof, to be exact)
14:47 Odin-LAP nothingmuch: Ah.
14:47 metaperl what country is beer sheva in?
14:47 theorbtwo You live in the god of beer?
14:48 autrijus god.
14:48 mkirank im trying to install pugs at home on my linux machine .. this is the files that i have to download right http://www.haskell.org/fedora/haskell/1​/i386/RPMS.stable/ghc64-6.4-2.i386.rpm   and  http://www.haskell.org/fedora/haskell/​1/i386/RPMS.stable/ghc-6.4-2.i386.rpm  
14:48 autrijus look at S04!
14:48 theorbtwo Er, the suburbs of the god of beer...
14:48 autrijus a native "subst" object previously unmentioned!
14:48 cnhackTNT has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:48 nothingmuch well, either in Tennessee somewhere, or in israel
14:48 autrijus what's with that?
14:48 metaperl i see, are you jewish?
14:48 nothingmuch metaperl: err, that depends on who you ask
14:48 * metaperl has a slight interest in kabbalah
14:48 nothingmuch mkirank: the second i think
14:49 nothingmuch i'd say, yes, culturely, not religeously
14:49 nothingmuch state of israel says no
14:49 metaperl oh, where is the wailing wall?
14:49 nothingmuch mom converted from catholicisim
14:49 nothingmuch but to the conservative stream
14:49 nothingmuch in the 80s
14:49 mkirank nothingmuch only the second is it ?
14:49 nothingmuch when only orthodox judasim was recognized as valid by the state
14:49 metaperl i thought you had to be born as a jew...
14:49 nothingmuch mkirank: the first is for opetron64 and friends, i think
14:49 nothingmuch well, in theory yes
14:50 nothingmuch you inherit it from your mother
14:50 stevan metaperl: I think your mother has to be jewish
14:50 nothingmuch if she converted then you count as a jew
14:50 metaperl my impression of israel is that you could be blown up at any moment... no offense intended but that's all I see about Israel on the news here
14:50 nothingmuch my dad is jewish, officially
14:50 autrijus stevan: care to ask on p6c about how the "subst" obj is supposed to work?
14:50 autrijus because it's only mentioned once
14:50 nothingmuch metaperl: that is a bad impression, i think, for either side
14:50 nothingmuch it's really not like this
14:50 autrijus and I have no idea at all about its semantics.
14:50 stevan p6c? or p6l?
14:50 metaperl that's good to hear
14:50 autrijus well it's in Syn, we're implementing it, so p6c maybe
14:50 nothingmuch chances of being involved in a direct conflict with arabs is very low, even if in the army
14:50 Odin-LAP nothingmuch: What's your view on that whole mess? :>
14:50 metaperl Syn? as in Synagogue :)
14:51 theorbtwo Well, the theory, I think, is that conversion happens when somebody who was always jewish but didn't realize it finds out.
14:51 gaal has joined #perl6
14:51 nothingmuch chances of dying in a bombing is much lower than car accident deaths
14:51 stevan autrijus: ok, I will re-read Syn 04 and ask
14:51 autrijus danke!
14:51 nothingmuch etc etc
14:51 nothingmuch but that stuff doesn't make new
14:51 nothingmuch s
14:51 nothingmuch i never head 'man got hit by car in australia'
14:51 nothingmuch Odin-LAP: rational left wing, i think
14:51 nothingmuch i believe that we can cautiously approach a peace if people that want to spoil it are under control
14:52 nothingmuch and we don't get overzealous, and then say "Well, they started it" when it all false to bits
14:52 Odin-LAP Heeh. They aren't, right now. :p
14:52 metaperl arafat's death was a good thing for peace if you ask me
14:52 nothingmuch metaperl: perhaps... we shall see
14:52 nothingmuch right now it's still too chaotic to tell, IMHO
14:52 nothingmuch but then again, he was not too hard to improve on
14:52 Odin-LAP metaperl: Yes, but it won't mean anything until the nuts on the other side get out of the way, too.
14:53 Odin-LAP Which, frankly, doesn't seem too likely. :(
14:53 nothingmuch i really have high hopes about our side bucking up this time
14:53 nothingmuch it seems so close, and so dead serious
14:53 mkirank i get a   ghc64 is needed by ghc-6.4-2 .. so i guess i have to download both
14:53 theorbtwo His death was, but the Israelite government messed it all up by trying to control his funeral.
14:53 nothingmuch likely someone will screw things up, and something will get bombed
14:53 nothingmuch but experience tells me otherwise
14:53 jabbot pugs - 1053 - add test for var in key side of pair
14:54 nothingmuch and sharon could say "well, i tried, and they didn't help themselves"
14:54 nothingmuch and we'd be back in spring 2002
14:55 nothingmuch anywho, i dislike discussing politics, i tend to get carried away and then regret it
14:55 nothingmuch to cut to the point:
14:56 nothingmuch i'm more pro arab than most, but not in an "oh, we're so barbaric" sort of way. I think both sides bear a lot of guilt, or at least should, and will have to face it in the next decade or things will never get resolved
14:58 Alias_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:59 Juerd ]}}
15:01 mj has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:02 stevan autrijus: actually subst is mentioned again in S05, all the way at the bottom
15:02 stevan it seems to be a method for string objects
15:03 stevan $str.subst(//, "replacement") is the example given
15:03 theorbtwo Ah, that'd make more sense.
15:03 theorbtwo ~~ is "smart match", and s/// isn't matching anything.
15:03 stevan there is also a match() method
15:03 stevan $stc.match(//);
15:04 theorbtwo Right; $string ~~ $rule is syntatic sugar for $stc.match($rule)... I think.
15:04 theorbtwo (Though I'm not clear why that's not $rule.match($stc).)
15:04 * theorbtwo realizes he's making this up as he goes along, stops.
15:05 mj has joined #perl6
15:05 Odin-LAP I think that's how Perl6 was designed, you know.
15:05 theorbtwo That's how everything was designed, odin.
15:05 Odin-LAP :p
15:05 iblech Hm... latest r1053 fails *many* tests, "Fail: Prelude.last: empty list"
15:06 autrijus so what is "subst" as a type?
15:06 autrijus nothingmuch: you broke the tree
15:06 nothingmuch how did I break it?
15:06 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Nah. Many things, but not everything, I think...
15:06 autrijus or maybe I did.
15:06 theorbtwo LISP, in purticular, was never designed to be actually /run/, and the guy who designed it was quite surprised when somebody made it do so.
15:06 stevan autrijus: still not 100% sure, I am going to read some more so I can ask the question intelligently :)
15:06 autrijus sure :)
15:07 nothingmuch i think not
15:07 nothingmuch my last ci was removing trace
15:07 nothingmuch and that passed tests
15:07 Juerd 16:09 < theorbtwo> Right; $string ~~ $rule is syntatic sugar for $stc.match($rule)... I think.
15:07 Juerd 16:09 < theorbtwo> (Though I'm not clear why that's not $rule.match($stc).)
15:07 Juerd theorbtwo: Shouldn't matter. $regex ~~ $string DWYM
15:07 nothingmuch expect for a one line change to sub_named_params.t
15:07 Juerd Most smart matches are reversable
15:07 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: Lisp is an oddity. It was just a mathematical formalism that wound up having use as a programming language...
15:07 nothingmuch and the correpsponding change to plan
15:08 Juerd Only those with special syntax (i.e. hash subscripts) are not
15:08 theorbtwo Right, because ~~ is more-or-less a highly funky equality operator; all the basic properties of equality operators should more-or-less hold.
15:09 autrijus except when it is not.
15:09 autrijus marked with *
15:09 Odin-LAP Smart match is very well described with the term "funky". ;)
15:09 Juerd All those new Perl 6 features are funky
15:10 Juerd Those from other languages are boring
15:10 theorbtwo I'm going to get dressed, find some cash, and buy some milk... see you in 30 or so.
15:10 Odin-LAP Heeh.
15:10 Juerd theorbtwo: years?
15:10 Juerd theorbtwo: hours? minutes?
15:10 Odin-LAP Juerd: Macros are boring? :>
15:10 Juerd seconds?
15:10 autrijus nothingmuch: not your fault. it's me.
15:10 Juerd Odin-LAP: Quite.
15:10 autrijus apologies.
15:10 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
15:10 nothingmuch autrijus: =)
15:10 Juerd Odin-LAP: Handy and useful, but boring.
15:10 nothingmuch the pair fix?
15:10 theorbtwo minutes.  Possibly much less, depends on if I feel like buying other things, and how long it takes to find cash.
15:11 autrijus weird.
15:11 Odin-LAP Juerd: Hm. I guess that's one perspective. I think it's going to be interesting to see how they mix with all the other stuff that's being thrown into the mix.
15:11 theorbtwo I suspect everyone will find the new perl6 stuff much less wierd after we've actually programmed with them for a while.
15:11 Odin-LAP But taken alone, I guess I'd agree. :)
15:12 theorbtwo The same way lisp programmers don't find the lack of syntax and such funky.
15:12 Odin-LAP theorbtwo: They usually acknowledge that it's weird, compared to other programming languages. :>
15:13 saorge has joined #perl6
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15:17 nothingmuch good post: http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=440730
15:18 nothingmuch i've wanted to answer a question like that for a long while
15:18 nothingmuch it has implications about robustness, security, performance, etc
15:18 autrijus the test fix has been worked around.
15:18 autrijus ironically it's cased on write_log wkring.
15:18 autrijus working.
15:19 nothingmuch autrijus?
15:19 lumi has joined #perl6
15:19 jabbot nothingmuch: autrijus is still ahead
15:19 autrijus please help me untodo.
15:19 autrijus t/subroutines/sub_named_params.............ok
15:19 autrijus        4/20 unexpectedly succeeded
15:19 nothingmuch what is gugod--
15:19 nothingmuch what?
15:19 jabbot nothingmuch: what is gugod--
15:19 nothingmuch hah!
15:19 lumi That's not very nice..
15:19 lumi But then, neither is the bot
15:19 nothingmuch he should fix his bot =)
15:20 nothingmuch i've decided not to ignore it
15:20 lumi Heh
15:20 nothingmuch because then I miss the commit messages
15:20 autrijus it is worth noting that jabbot.blogspot.com exists.
15:20 nothingmuch oh, it's a precanned rss<->irc bridge?
15:20 nothingmuch boy, that website makes so much sense for me.... =)
15:22 stevan autrijus: what exactly are you wondering about with subst?
15:23 stevan the more I read the less I think it will be relevant until you implement the perl6 rules
15:23 jabbot pugs - 1054 - * work around the Prelude.last bug cause
15:23 * stevan freely admits that he is totally missing the point though
15:24 autrijus stevan: say I have this
15:24 autrijus s:perl5:g/foo/bar/
15:24 autrijus is that a "subst" object?
15:24 autrijus does a subst object .hasa rule object?
15:24 Juerd Is it really :g with :p5?
15:24 autrijus what exactly does a subst object do?
15:25 stevan ok
15:25 autrijus can I get a rule object from it?
15:25 autrijus how does it stringify? etc.
15:25 stevan and if its not an object, and just a Str method then?
15:25 autrijus how is a method possible as RHS of ~~?
15:25 stevan RHS?
15:26 stevan Right Hand Side?
15:26 autrijus right hand side
15:26 autrijus is ~~ s:perl5:g/a/b/
15:26 autrijus the same as
15:26 autrijus ~~ .subst(rx:perl5/a/, "b") ?
15:26 autrijus or
15:26 autrijus ~~ .subst(rx:perl5/a/, {"b"})?
15:26 autrijus questions questions.
15:26 stevan I see now
15:27 * stevan goes off to try and compose a mail on this insanity :P
15:27 nothingmuch autrijus: should i raise "ok(!(eval '&foo.assuming(1)'), "can't curry without named params");" passing to p6l?
15:27 nothingmuch the way we bind currying positionals does make sense
15:27 nothingmuch backlink comment: # L<S06/Currying /takes a series of named arguments/>
15:28 autrijus sure.
15:28 autrijus go ahead.
15:28 autrijus but
15:28 autrijus phrase it as a perl6 question :)
15:28 autrijus (as in, language proposal about how .assuming can also behave)
15:29 nothingmuch i think i would rather ask it as:
15:29 nothingmuch it says so
15:30 nothingmuch we do it so that it can be otherwise
15:30 nothingmuch this is because binding works like:
15:30 nothingmuch ?
15:30 nothingmuch sorry
15:30 nothingmuch "is that a bad thing, or a good thing?" was what I meant to type
15:30 autrijus that works too.
15:32 ninereasons has joined #perl6
15:33 autrijus stevan: s:perl5/// is landing. no :g :i yet
15:33 autrijus or :m :s
15:33 autrijus but trivial.
15:33 stevan autrijus: thanks :)
15:33 stevan autrijus++
15:33 jabbot pugs - 1055 - More tests.
15:34 autrijus glad to be of help ;)
15:34 stevan nothingmuch++ # just so he won't feel bad :P
15:34 * autrijus needs to journal and sleep soon
15:34 nothingmuch stevan++
15:34 nothingmuch =)
15:34 stevan nothingmuch: no I haven't done anything today
15:34 nothingmuch blah, whatever
15:34 stevan perlbot karma mom
15:34 perlbot Karma for mom: 1
15:34 nothingmuch i haven't done much either
15:35 stevan nothingmuch: thats your mom :)
15:35 nothingmuch my mom?
15:35 stevan we ++ her for giving birth to you :)
15:35 nothingmuch heh
15:35 nothingmuch =D
15:35 stevan when you got her at the train yesterday :)
15:35 nothingmuch mothers++
15:35 nothingmuch that was yesterday? not the day before?
15:35 nothingmuch yesterday i didn't even unpack the puter at home, i think
15:35 nothingmuch just read a book, and went to bed
15:36 stevan nothingmuch: hard to say, my yesterday is not always your yesterday :P
15:36 stevan damn time zones
15:36 nothingmuch i think i picked up mom around 45 hours ago
15:36 nothingmuch so ;-)
15:37 stevan well tell mom we all say "hi"
15:37 autrijus patches welcome to implement the rest of :m :s etc
15:37 autrijus just parse for adverbes and feed them to MkRegex
15:37 nothingmuch ok =)
15:38 autrijus pugs> my $x = "pugs"; $x ~~ s:perl5/u.[st]/arrot/; $x
15:38 autrijus 'parrot'
15:38 stevan autrijus: very cool, now I can finish File::Spec
15:38 stevan did I mention how UGLY File::Spec is?
15:38 autrijus no. you did not.
15:38 stevan its really really UGLY
15:38 autrijus t1056.
15:38 autrijus enjoy!
15:38 autrijus s/t/r/
15:39 stevan danke; graci; thank you :)
15:39 autrijus =)
15:42 autrijus Day 51: Inline haskell, s:perl5///
15:42 autrijus not too bad for a day :)
15:42 autrijus sadly ingy did not commit his makefile.pl magic for inline()
15:42 iblech BTW -- I get some warnings when compiling (GHC 6.2, Linux): http://sial.org/pbot/8541
15:43 autrijus yeah they're expected.
15:43 iblech Ok
15:43 * theorbtwo is back.
15:43 jabbot pugs - 1056 - * s:perl5/// support.
15:44 nothingmuch ok, sent to p6l
15:45 autrijus iblech: I attemped a fix; try again please?
15:48 autrijus heads-up
15:48 autrijus it may be the case that the whole evaluator will be moved into compiler
15:48 autrijus once Compile.Haskell is working
15:48 autrijus so the evaluator does on-the-fly compilation
15:48 autrijus and always run code at fast speed.
15:48 autrijus that will also save us from doing Eval.hs and Compile.Haskell separately.
15:48 autrijus plus a set of very nice things.
15:49 nothingmuch how does this hinder BEGIN {}, etc?
15:49 autrijus but it will be done by essentially taking Eval.hs code and add [| |] for each reduce rule
15:49 iblech http://sial.org/pbot/8542 -- new warnings
15:49 autrijus nothingmuch: that is so we can get BEGIN work.
15:49 nothingmuch ride leaving
15:49 nothingmuch ah =)
15:49 nothingmuch ciao everyone
15:49 nothingmuch home &
15:50 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
15:52 autrijus iblech: should be fixed now. try again?
15:52 mkirank has left
15:53 jabbot pugs - 1058 - * revert to old include style for 6.2.2.
15:53 jabbot pugs - 1057 - * warning fixes
15:55 iblech :) Only one warning left:
15:55 iblech Compiling RRegex.PCRE      ( src/RRegex/PCRE.hs, src/RRegex/PCRE.o )
15:55 iblech /tmp/ghc24855.hc: In function `RRegexziPCRE_zdwccall_entry':
15:55 iblech /tmp/ghc24855.hc:498: warning: assignment discards qualifiers from pointer target type
15:55 autrijus I have no idea :)
15:55 autrijus maybe it's one of the signeness things.
15:56 autrijus you're welcome to track src/pcre/ down :)
15:57 iblech somebody with C skills may do that :)
16:00 masak has left
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16:00 iblech changes topic to: 115 subtests fail | pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m
16:03 jabbot pugs - 1059 - * fixup inline syntax a bit
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16:11 elmex oi
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16:13 iblech luqui: IIRC, you created a perl6.vim syntax highlighting script :) -- URL?
16:13 jabbot pugs - 1060 - * add credit for GHC-licensed RuntimeLoa
16:15 stevan luqui: I have a quick question for you
16:15 stevan when you have a second
16:23 luqui stevan: hmm?
16:23 stevan luqui: you removed the string escape test
16:23 stevan for test\'
16:23 stevan why?
16:23 luqui yeah, it was wrong.
16:23 stevan should that not work?
16:23 luqui perl -e "print 'foo\'"
16:23 jabbot pugs - 1061 - unTODO-ed tests; added in the File/Spec.
16:24 stevan oh
16:24 stevan whoops my bad
16:24 luqui (not to mention that you were saying "$foo = 'hello\'", so the newly defined $foo was being interpolated, but that was fixable)
16:24 luqui np
16:24 stevan perl -e "print 'foo\\'"
16:24 stevan that does work
16:24 luqui yep, and in pugs
16:24 stevan pugs -e "say 'foo\\'"
16:24 stevan it fails
16:25 luqui really?
16:25 stevan unexpected end of input
16:25 stevan expecting "\\'" or end of string
16:25 stevan NonTerm SourcePos "-e" 1 12
16:25 skypp has quit IRC ("À뿪")
16:25 luqui i thought I tested that
16:25 luqui make sure that your shell isn't turning \\ into \
16:25 stevan sorry, that should have been the test
16:25 luqui echo "say 'foo\\'"
16:25 stevan luqui: how would I do that?
16:25 stevan prints say 'foo\\'
16:26 * luqui goes to test it in pugs
16:26 stevan I actually ran into a number of weird things with \'s in strings
16:26 luqui huh... my bad
16:26 stevan but some of them were me :)
16:26 luqui that deserves a test
16:26 stevan not a big deal, I was testing for the wrong thing, so you were right to remove
16:27 stevan do you want to look into it more? or should I put in the test again?
16:27 hlafarge has quit IRC ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'")
16:28 luqui put it back in whether or not I want to look into it
16:28 luqui but I probably will... tomorrow (my bedtime is approaching)
16:28 luqui iblech, vim syntax url: http://luqui.org/public/perl6.vim
16:28 iblech luqui: Thanks much :)
16:29 luqui it's very, very out of date
16:29 stevan luqui: where are you located?
16:29 luqui colorado
16:30 stevan bedtime at noon?
16:30 luqui yes, it's about 9:00 am
16:30 PerlJam has joined #perl6
16:30 luqui and yes, it's almost my bedtime
16:30 stevan whoops, got my timezones backwards
16:30 luqui it's spring break
16:30 stevan LOL
16:30 stevan I just got up
16:30 stevan ahhh
16:30 stevan I am EST
16:30 stevan connecticut to be exact
16:30 stevan but I am not in college so I have to work :P
16:31 PerlJam stevan: give us your exact latitude + longitude so that we know where to send the missles  ;-)
16:31 metaperl stevan do you work in CT or NY?
16:31 malaire has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
16:31 metaperl lol@PerlJam
16:31 stevan metaperl: the company is out of NY, but I work mostly from home in CT
16:32 * stevan prepares his bomb shelter in case PerlJam is serious
16:32 elmex ?
16:32 luqui Perl guided missles
16:32 luqui of course he's serious
16:32 PerlJam stevan: does this pugs stuff dove-tail with your work or is it just for fun?
16:33 luqui Gives new meaning to the "D" in TMTOWTDI
16:33 stevan PerlJam: mostly for fun right now
16:33 stevan I am at the end of project, so I have some time
16:33 PerlJam luqui: new meaning?  No, that's the same old meaning it always had it's just that people don't realize it (until it's too late ;)
16:33 luqui hehe
16:33 jabbot pugs - 1063 - * Upgrade to CVS version.
16:33 jabbot pugs - 1062 - * Jump ship to DynamicLoader
16:34 PerlJam I wish I could find a legitimate excuse to do this for work so I don't feel guilty when I spend work time playing with pugs.
16:34 metaperl stevan, what dynamic HTML generation toolkit do you use at work?
16:35 stevan PerlJam: my boss is very cool with open source work
16:35 luqui what's that perl module that returns more specific information about the context?
16:35 stevan he knows that we rely on it, so if I have "free" time, I am allowed to use it for OSS stuff
16:35 stevan luqui: Want?
16:36 stevan metaperl: I used to use HTML::Template, now we switched to TT because I can do [% user.getFirstName %] and stuff
16:36 luqui stevan: that's the one
16:37 stevan PerlJam: I would love to use Pugs at work if I could, but we do mostly mod_perl (handler-style) and mod_pugs is not even on the radar yet :)
16:37 PerlJam stevan: similar situation here.
16:37 stevan PerlJam: where do you work?
16:38 stevan assuming you can say, and its not Top Secret :P
16:38 PerlJam stevan: I work at a research institute within Texas A&M University-Corpus Christi.
16:38 ayrnieu has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:38 stevan nice
16:38 autrijus there's mod_parrot and there's mod_haskell.
16:39 PerlJam Mostly we collect, process, store, process some more, etc. environmental data.
16:39 stevan autrijus: and mod_pugs ?????
16:39 stevan maybe YAPC::NA??
16:39 PerlJam stevan: Are you challenging him?  ;)
16:39 stevan PerlJam: my job is to challange him :) (aka write tests)
16:39 autrijus stevan: err. you compile to haskell and run it with mod_haskell.
16:39 kensanata has left "lisp is forever"
16:39 autrijus or compile to pir and run it with mod_parrot.
16:40 autrijus I believe mod_haskell can work with the --pugs backend.
16:40 autrijus the other two backends will catch up.
16:40 stevan wow
16:40 PerlJam autrijus: that's the thing about actual high-volume output ... It always gets exaggerated and you become the lightning rod for any new cool ideas.
16:41 PerlJam (not that this is a bad thing :-)
16:41 ninereasons Is there any chance that in perl6 we will be able to declare multiple assignments?  I've often wished that I could say something like "my ($x = $y = $z) = $val;" to initialize mutiple equivalent variables in a single statement.
16:41 integral my ($x, $y, $z) = $val x 3 ;-)
16:41 autrijus journal up.
16:41 integral my $x = my $y = my $z = $val;
16:41 * autrijus sleeps. :)
16:41 PerlJam ninereasons: er, what's wrong with  ... what integral just said
16:42 stevan night autrijus
16:42 bluefeet has joined #perl6
16:43 luqui integral: in p6 that's my ($x, $y, $z) = $val xx 3;
16:43 luqui the -) on the end is a syntax error :-p
16:43 * integral had a habit of just picking syntax at random ;-)
16:44 PerlJam luqui: couldn't we get something like my ($x,$y,$z) =<< $val;  so as to not have to explicitly state the number?
16:45 integral wouldn't the hyper be on the other side?
16:45 PerlJam yeah, I guess so.
16:46 PerlJam But my ($x,$y,$z) >>= $val; really looks like it's doing something different than what's wanted.
16:47 integral maybe we need a combinator to turn $val into a infinite constant list
16:47 PerlJam (the "flow" appears rightward rather than leftward)
16:47 integral xx inf?
16:47 PerlJam integral: $val xx Inf  + lazy eval
16:48 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
16:48 nothingmuch evening
16:48 stevan nothingmuch: howdy
16:49 PerlJam buenos dias nothingmuch
16:49 gaal has joined #perl6
16:49 ninereasons sorry, I was away.
16:49 nothingmuch that was a reply, not an announcement
16:49 stevan en Espanol 'naddamucho' :)
16:49 nothingmuch evening
16:50 stevan hey gaal
16:50 nothingmuch autrijus seems to overestimate my work
16:50 nothingmuch i don't give that much time to pugs
16:50 PerlJam nothingmuch: why not?  Everyone else tends to overestimate his.  Learn to go with it ;)
16:50 ninereasons fer heavensake.  I didn't know that that worked, integral.
16:51 nothingmuch it makes me come out as, err, someone who is really devoted
16:51 nothingmuch i don't want people to expect me to do things
16:51 stevan nothingmuch: the commit logs speak differently
16:51 nothingmuch i work on it when i get a spare 5 mins
16:51 PerlJam nothingmuch: well, stop getting spare 5 mins
16:51 nothingmuch and in the afternoons in bigger chunks
16:51 PerlJam Or only use your spare 5 mins on pugs sparingly  ;)
16:52 nothingmuch PerlJam: why? i enjoy it =)
16:55 nothingmuch anyway, now is afternoon, and after mail i will pre unPair things before apply
16:55 nothingmuch and that way we get proper named params
16:55 nothingmuch and currying that works 100% of the time
16:57 luqui PerlJam: my ($x, $y, $z) >>=<< $val; will do it now
16:57 luqui ... unless $val happens to be an array reference (/me wants to get that changed)
16:57 elmex_ has joined #perl6
16:57 nothingmuch don't you mean my ($x, $y, $z) = >>=
16:58 nothingmuch $val
16:58 nothingmuch without the <<?
16:58 luqui no.  binary hypers always have them on both sides, even if you're only hypering one side
16:58 nothingmuch so in that case isn't '.' binary 'apply method', which gets a method and an object, and applies?
16:59 luqui that's one way to think of it
16:59 * nothingmuch rereads hyper ops
16:59 luqui but since . has special parsing rules on its right side, another way to think of it is as a postfix
16:59 luqui which is apparently how Larry think of it
16:59 luqui s/k/ks/
17:00 theorbtwo The problem with thinking of . as an infix operator is that it doesn't take anything normal on it's RHS.
17:00 nothingmuch i can grok that
17:00 luqui in other words, $obj.<<@meths is illegal
17:00 nothingmuch although first class methods and method calls should probably be there too, while we're at it ;-)
17:01 luqui nothingmuch: I don't understand?
17:01 nothingmuch is there a way to implement a different WALK?
17:01 nothingmuch it would be nice if you could, for example, change the semantics of what is a method dispatch
17:01 nothingmuch given the MMD dispatch
17:01 luqui definitely.  I don't think anybody has any idea how.
17:01 nothingmuch or whatever
17:01 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:01 luqui oh, there's DISPATCH
17:01 nothingmuch how does smalltalk do it?
17:01 nothingmuch does it do it?
17:02 luqui which alters single dispatch...
17:02 nothingmuch i am under the impression that it should, given the way people talk about it
17:02 * luqui doesn't know smalltalk
17:02 * luqui should learn it though
17:02 * nothingmuch is busy enough with haskell =)
17:02 * luqui no kiddings
17:02 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
17:02 luqui haskell is a... difficult language
17:03 * nothingmuch is starting to enjoy it
17:03 nothingmuch can read basic things now
17:03 nothingmuch sometimes even without help
17:03 nothingmuch i don't "get" monads yet, though
17:03 luqui I've never learned a language by having to learn to read it
17:03 luqui I've always learned by having to write
17:03 luqui so this is a new experience
17:03 theorbtwo I still think haskell would be a very nice language if it got reasonable parens and commas.
17:04 nothingmuch theorbtwo: in that case $ is your friend, no?
17:04 ninereasons I get frustrated when examples for ghc won't compile in hugs, and visa versa.
17:04 luqui and if it had any psychological footholds
17:04 luqui and all these years of reading perl really throws me off when I see a $
17:04 nothingmuch i bet if i read python now it'd confuse me
17:04 luqui no other languages use $, so it's my "perl marker"
17:04 sorje has joined #perl6
17:04 nothingmuch but haskell looks /very/ different from perl
17:05 nothingmuch luqui: i get that with bash, actually
17:05 theorbtwo No, because I've never quite figured out what $ is quite supposed to do.
17:05 nothingmuch i use the same keystrokes
17:05 nothingmuch so, i sometimes confuse myself and switch to perl
17:05 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:05 nothingmuch theorbtwo: (foo (bar param)) in perl would be said foo(bar(param))
17:05 luqui f a b === ((f a) b)
17:05 luqui f $ a b === f (a b)
17:05 nothingmuch and in haskell can be said foo $ bar $ param
17:05 nothingmuch or more concisely foo $ bar param
17:05 nothingmuch or not =)
17:06 nothingmuch foo $ (bar param) which is just plain stupid
17:06 theorbtwo So $ acts like parens from that point, forward as far as possible to the end of the line.
17:06 nothingmuch yup
17:06 nothingmuch which usually works quite well
17:06 luqui it's a right associative apply, rather than a left-associative one which is the default
17:06 nothingmuch you can also infix things if it helps readability
17:06 luqui most languages apply right-associative (the ones that don't use parens, like perl, that is)
17:06 theorbtwo By using backticks.
17:06 nothingmuch uhuh
17:07 nothingmuch like list `zip` other
17:07 nothingmuch although that's not the same kind of zip
17:07 elmex_ ?
17:07 elmex_ is now known as elmex
17:07 luqui that would be a nice thing for perl to have
17:07 luqui unfortunately, perl is out of keyboard
17:07 nothingmuch that's not hard, is it?
17:08 luqui I'm not sure adding another wdti for sub calls is buying us anything though
17:08 nothingmuch gather { for zip(@list; @list) -> $p1, $p2 { take ($p1 => $p2) } }
17:08 nothingmuch what do you mean by that?
17:08 luqui every programmer will have his favorite, and every programmer will have to learn all the wtdis to read code
17:09 nothingmuch we could make a nice pair_up method
17:09 luqui foo($a, $b);  $a.foo($b).  foo $a: $b.  ($a, $b) ==> foo
17:09 luqui those are all the same, but subtly different
17:09 luqui oh, (foo $a, $b)
17:09 nothingmuch and tuple_up, which would really mean array_up
17:09 nothingmuch err s/method/sub/
17:09 nothingmuch user sub, mind you
17:09 nothingmuch (&foo.assuming($a, $b))()
17:09 nothingmuch i don't want that n the core
17:10 nothingmuch or however you dereference that
17:10 nothingmuch (not quite sure yet)
17:10 luqui &foo.assuming($a, $b).()
17:10 nothingmuch ah
17:10 nothingmuch isn't $a: $b and $a, $b radically different?
17:10 nothingmuch i've been playing with parameter binding these last few days, in pugs
17:10 nothingmuch we have invs and args, which are entirely different things, as far as it's concerned
17:10 luqui not at all in the absense of a sub foo (only methods)
17:11 luqui yeah, and they're pretty different, until you start calling the multis
17:11 luqui which should wash them together
17:11 nothingmuch so how does it know what is an invocant and what is an arg in a multi?
17:11 * luqui is trying pretty hard to convince @Larry that invocants are a bad idea
17:11 Odin-LAP Isn't everything essentially a multi?
17:11 luqui Odin-LAP: it's getting there
17:12 nothingmuch i think invocants should be slurped from the args
17:12 nothingmuch it'd be much more dwimmy
17:12 luqui I think invocant's shouldn't exist, and we should have a smarter MMD behavior
17:12 nothingmuch but less symmetric with sub prototypes
17:12 luqui s/'//
17:12 nothingmuch how would it be smarter?
17:12 Odin-LAP luqui: Hm. But the concept of 'invocant' makes it a bit odd, you mean?
17:12 Odin-LAP Yeah.
17:12 Odin-LAP Hm.
17:12 * Odin-LAP seconds nothingmuch's question.
17:13 luqui p6l "Argument Patterns"
17:13 luqui that was my first brainstorm
17:13 nothingmuch you mean more like haskell's?
17:13 luqui nothingmuch: that was my inspiration
17:13 nothingmuch (btw, don't subtypes let us do that in an ugly way?)
17:13 luqui but a dynamic language needs something a little different from haskell
17:13 * nothingmuch waits for mutt to open
17:14 * luqui is working on a module with which he can experiment with these things
17:14 luqui and really should be working on it right now
17:14 * luqui declares that he'll be in-and-out
17:14 nothingmuch luqui: how would it look?
17:14 nothingmuch Reading /home/nothingmuch/.maildir/... 14580
17:14 nothingmuch it's growing too fast.... =(
17:14 luqui yikes
17:15 luqui it would look pretty much like it looks now
17:16 luqui (because my proposals never really change much on the surface, they just mess around with the guts)
17:20 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
17:21 stevan anyone inspired to hack in support for :g?
17:21 stevan in s/// regexps that is
17:22 luqui are they still using pcre?
17:22 stevan yes
17:22 luqui (still referring to a very short period of time)
17:22 luqui ahh, then no
17:22 stevan autrijus: just put in s/// for me
17:22 luqui a little jumpy on the tab key are we?
17:22 luqui :-)
17:23 stevan :)
17:23 stevan too much coffee
17:23 nothingmuch stevan: consider updating colloquy for a less convenient completion interface, if that's what you use ;-)
17:23 stevan I am using X-Chat-Aqua actually
17:24 stevan :P
17:24 * luqui likes xchat
17:24 stevan its the only one which worked well for me really
17:24 stevan so I like it too
17:25 stevan ok, since no one wants to work on s:g/// support
17:25 stevan how about a nice hack to make this:
17:25 nothingmuch luqui: you're on OSX? or are you referring to a different xchat?
17:25 stevan $path ~~ s:g:perl5{/+}{/};
17:25 stevan work without it
17:25 luqui no, I'm on linux.
17:25 luqui I think x-chat-aqua is probably a port of xchat to aqua
17:25 elmex has quit IRC ("kv")
17:26 luqui stevan: it's possible, but it's not pretty
17:27 stevan luqui: its for the File::Spec hack/port, so pretty is not nessecary
17:27 stevan if I wanted pretty I would not use File::Spec :)
17:27 luqui you could always do:  while $path ~~ s{/{2,}}{/} { }
17:27 luqui perhaps without the curly overload
17:28 Khisanth xchat-aqua is xchat with the native mac thing for GUI widgets instead of GTK :)
17:28 luqui that's what I thought :-)
17:29 nothingmuch luqui: i've got to admit i don't see how that is much different than subtype matching on MMD
17:29 Odin-LAP And is it open source, unlike the Win32 version of same? :>
17:29 luqui it basically destroys invocants and makes subtype matching less verbose
17:29 luqui destroying invocants is the biggest part
17:29 nothingmuch invocants destroyed for SMD too?
17:30 luqui SMD and MMD are the same thing
17:30 luqui in perl 6
17:30 nothingmuch so $self goes back to being $_[0], sort of?
17:30 luqui class Foo { method bar() {...} }  and  multi sub bar(Foo $x) {...)
17:30 luqui well, methods still have that nice syntactic sugar
17:31 Khisanth Odin-LAP: yes
17:31 luqui it's just that the colon goes away, because it makes the semantics all icky
17:31 nothingmuch that means basically 'implicity add an argument of type ::?CLASS?
17:31 nothingmuch i really didn't like the colon either
17:31 Odin-LAP Khisanth: Cool. That's good. :)
17:31 nothingmuch in fact, i'd like to be able to do matching on arbitrary params... is that possible?
17:31 Khisanth Odin-LAP: although it does lack certain features
17:31 nothingmuch not only constraining
17:32 luqui nothingmuch: explain arbitrary
17:32 nothingmuch darn! nobody ever answers my posts to p6l
17:32 luqui what was your post about?
17:33 nothingmuch class Human { method eat (Dog $regular_arg) { say "i don't eat dogs" } method eat (Food $regular_arg) { say "mmm" } }
17:33 nothingmuch luqui: about currying positionals
17:33 luqui to be honest, I didn't really understand it
17:33 nothingmuch well, the first part is simple
17:34 nothingmuch S06 says "This method takes a series of named arguments"
17:34 nothingmuch but i don't see why
17:34 luqui oh, that's what you were asking
17:34 nothingmuch and then the second part says how we do it in pugs
17:34 nothingmuch and what our way implies
17:34 luqui and perl 6 probably ought to have a happy medium in there somewhere
17:34 nothingmuch and asks whether our impl is broken, or OK?
17:35 nothingmuch so luqui: can i do simple subs that have not only prototype constraints, but also matching?
17:36 nothingmuch i'd like to be able to do that at the MMD level, to allow things to be added on the outside
17:36 nothingmuch instead of using given { where }
17:36 nothingmuch which means the entire def is one place
17:36 nothingmuch (unless it should be in one place, in which case, don't remove switch statements ;-)
17:36 luqui Ohh! smart matching inside parameter lists
17:36 nothingmuch sort of
17:36 luqui hmm... that might be an elegant way to define smart match :-)
17:36 nothingmuch MMD dispatch
17:37 nothingmuch but not only for arguments
17:37 * nothingmuch assumed that's how smartmatch will be implemented ;-)
17:37 nothingmuch except for evaluating the RHS, that is
17:37 luqui what else would you do MMD on except for arguments?
17:37 luqui (still trying to figure out exactly what you're asking)
17:37 nothingmuch well, in many cases i like doing special cases separately
17:38 nothingmuch your factorial (is prime) { $?SELF } example pretty much illustrates what I want
17:38 nothingmuch basically, allow this specific-to-generic order matching of MMDs on all params, not just invocants
17:38 nothingmuch and to tell you the truth, I expect MMD to allow that anyway
17:39 nothingmuch since in theory, everything is an object
17:39 luqui that's exactly what I'm proposing
17:39 nothingmuch if you like to call it that
17:39 luqui because I'm proposing to destroy the concept of "invocant"
17:39 nothingmuch so isn't everything an invocant of a sub?
17:39 nothingmuch right
17:39 nothingmuch so what i'm really saying is: oh crap, i thought it was like this anyway
17:39 luqui specific-to-generic order happens to be a pretty hard thing to define
17:39 luqui and that's the only weak point of the proposal at this point
17:39 nothingmuch i know it's hard
17:39 nothingmuch =(
17:39 * nothingmuch tried it a couple of times
17:40 nothingmuch order of definition is also nice
17:40 nothingmuch although less DWIMMY
17:40 luqui Obviously, $x matches A imples that $x matches B iff B is more generic than A
17:40 nothingmuch perhaps order of definition within specific-to-generic in a simpler way
17:40 nothingmuch like, where clauses first
17:40 nothingmuch then least derived types
17:40 nothingmuch in order of constraint definition
17:40 luqui but that test is hard, or impossible, for a computer to do
17:40 nothingmuch upwards
17:41 luqui nothingmuch: hmm...
17:41 nothingmuch that test is impossible to optimize
17:41 luqui that's an interesting idea
17:41 nothingmuch and i think bad for humans to work with
17:41 xerox has quit IRC ("leaving")
17:41 nothingmuch i don't know about junctive types
17:42 nothingmuch obviously & is more specific than |
17:42 nothingmuch but i'm not sure if & is less specific than just plain old unjunctioned
17:42 luqui A&B more specific than both A and B which are more specific than A|B
17:42 luqui it's that type lattice thing
17:42 luqui but when you're doing that loose order, you might have to clump them all together
17:42 nothingmuch basically what you get is a pretty DWIM "specificness" measure
17:43 nothingmuch which is not heuristical, but well defined
17:43 luqui I think the main thing that it needs to be is well defined
17:43 nothingmuch and i think that's pretty good
17:43 nothingmuch compared to order of definition
17:43 luqui so people can understand what's wrong quickly
17:43 luqui and allow them an easy way to fix it
17:43 nothingmuch yes
17:43 nothingmuch that's one of the things that seems the most scary for me in p6
17:43 nothingmuch i get along well with special cases
17:43 nothingmuch but too much dwimmery at runtime or something can really get on my nerves
17:44 luqui one of my efforts in the p6 design team is to reduce runtime dwimmery
17:44 metaperl_ nothingmuch, then dont get into functiona programming. it is pure DWIM
17:44 metaperl_ :)
17:44 luqui because it's bitten me too many times
17:44 nothingmuch metaperl_: i don' think so... i think
17:44 nothingmuch luqui: that's good
17:44 nothingmuch the sigil dereference chain mess in p5 was the most annoying
17:44 luqui metaperl_: the problem is that it takes you two hours to say what you mean, even if it only takes three lines
17:44 PerlJam luqui: In perl or other languages?
17:45 PerlJam luqui: Have you ever dealt with C++?
17:45 luqui mostly in perl
17:45 nothingmuch you just can't get it right without using @{ } et all (no off hand example)
17:45 luqui I know C++ really well, and it never bites me.  It just bugs the hell out of me.
17:46 nothingmuch one of the things i really appreciate in p6 is that it's very consistent
17:46 nothingmuch p5 had some oddities
17:46 PerlJam luqui: I know C++ really well too.  I know not to mess with it while it's eating or it *will* bite me  ;)
17:46 PerlJam nothingmuch: you can say that again!
17:46 nothingmuch but p6 finds nice way of wrapping everything up much better
17:46 nothingmuch like builtins are really MMD
17:46 nothingmuch and operators too
17:46 nothingmuch and you can make them up
17:46 luqui Larry's trying to put all the dwimmery into ~~
17:47 nothingmuch so that means that they are well defined
17:47 iblech has quit IRC ("leaving")
17:47 nothingmuch less guessing
17:47 luqui which I like
17:47 nothingmuch ~~ is very well defined, i think
17:47 luqui but there are a lot of different cases
17:47 nothingmuch but they are all intuitive
17:47 luqui which should be considered dwim
17:47 luqui sure
17:47 nothingmuch i wrote most of t/operators/smartmatch.t
17:47 luqui we don't want to put anything in perl 6 that isn't
17:47 nothingmuch and i have a good opinion on it
17:47 luqui (like, er, junctions?)
17:48 nothingmuch i really like junctions
17:48 nothingmuch except that I think autothreading should not have auto
17:48 nothingmuch s/auto/easy
17:48 luqui me too, they're a little tough for people to wrap their heads around though
17:48 nothingmuch that's not what gets to me
17:49 nothingmuch it's the same thing that annoys me with overzealous laziness
17:49 nothingmuch you lose control
17:49 luqui yeah...
17:49 nothingmuch and since the language isn't pure in the FP sense, it really /reaallly/ matters
17:49 nothingmuch what if i know that by doing x i indirectly fudge the file that is opened
17:49 luqui well the idea behind junctions is that you usually know where they are
17:49 nothingmuch and which that i assigned to @array beforehand?
17:49 luqui (but damian still refuses to mark them in any way)
17:50 luqui yeah, you have a point
17:50 metaperl_ stevan asked a good question about junctions... I dont know if he posted it to p6l or not
17:50 luqui because of the recent p6l discussion, larry is really reconsidering the "everything lazy" perspective
17:50 PerlJam luqui: I think junctions are one of those things where we'll get them in 6.0.0 and then by 6.1.0 we'll have found out if they were a good idea as implemented or not.
17:50 metaperl_ my $junc = $a | $b | $c; ++$b; # does this change the junction
17:50 PerlJam metaperl_: no
17:50 luqui no.
17:50 nothingmuch i'd like to be able to have a n is lazy trait on lvalues
17:50 nothingmuch metaperl_: in p5 it doesn't make sense
17:50 nothingmuch unless $b is a reference
17:51 nothingmuch i'd expect no
17:51 metaperl_ i see
17:51 nothingmuch but what about if $b is a reference and ++ DWIMs on references/
17:51 luqui and then it still doesn't change the junction, it changes something that something in the junction points to
17:51 nothingmuch right
17:51 nothingmuch how do you specify when a sub takes the junction as a junction
17:52 nothingmuch and when a sub takes a junction as it's, err, unwrapping?
17:52 PerlJam nothingmuch: sub foo (Junction $bar) { ... }
17:52 luqui sub foo (Junction $j) {...}
17:52 luqui one of your special cases :-)
17:52 nothingmuch if we use Sub and Int and Str
17:52 nothingmuch why not Jun or Junc?
17:52 nothingmuch that's more consistent
17:52 nothingmuch Junc, imho
17:52 nothingmuch ends in a consonant
17:53 PerlJam The whole Any|Junction thing bothers me though ... It kind of makes Any not really any.
17:53 luqui yeah...
17:53 nothingmuch hah
17:53 luqui but you've got to remember what junctions are
17:53 luqui they're things that, when you give them this:
17:53 luqui if $x { say "foo" }  if !$x { say "bar" }
17:53 luqui will say both foo and bar
17:53 saorge has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:54 nothingmuch how do you specify a junction that has a type?
17:54 nothingmuch like a junction of Ints
17:54 luqui Junction of?
17:54 nothingmuch Junction&Int?
17:54 luqui then you're asking for something that is both a junction and an int
17:54 nothingmuch why not make 'Any|Junction' into 'Junction Any' or 'Any :junctive
17:54 luqui which I suppose... well... umm....
17:54 nothingmuch i think ti's more than a type
17:54 saorge has joined #perl6
17:54 nothingmuch it's the state of the vlaue,
17:55 nothingmuch or it's err, lack thereof
17:55 luqui I think a junction is just a type, and perl is confused about what a type is
17:55 nothingmuch again with the 'err' and the 'uhm'
17:55 luqui you'll see that a lot of my proposals try to generify "type"
17:55 PerlJam nothingmuch: btw, I'm sure that the actual type names are probably Integer, String, Number etc. and Int, Str, Num are convient shorthands.  I don't think Junction should have a convienent shorthand.
17:55 nothingmuch so how do i specify a junction of types?
17:55 nothingmuch like array shape?
17:55 luqui I've always wanted to do something like:  role 2 { method is_prime() { 1 } }
17:56 luqui PerlJam: no, they're actually Int, Num, and Str
17:56 nothingmuch so that even a value can be a type?
17:56 luqui yeah
17:56 luqui or rather, a type can be a value
17:56 nothingmuch that makes more sense with junctions
17:56 nothingmuch and generalizes where {} a bit, methinks
17:57 luqui uhhuh
17:57 nothingmuch how does that fudge the runtime/compiletime mess?
17:57 PerlJam luqui: then I'll blame haskell for messing with my mind!  ;-)
17:57 nothingmuch i think it would work if we had haskell like type inferrence
17:57 nothingmuch except that it's not strict
17:57 luqui yeah, but it wouldn't be perlish
17:57 nothingmuch in that once you make a type more generic
17:57 nothingmuch it stays that way
17:57 nothingmuch haskell inference tends to try to find the most specific case
17:58 nothingmuch and anything that is not really that case exactly with no fucking exceptions and i mean it, is a compile time error
17:58 luqui Larry said that type inference is a possibility as long as it doesn't yell at you
17:58 nothingmuch exactly
17:58 nothingmuch i'd really like to be able to strictify type inferrence selectively
17:58 luqui I have to say, haskell's type inference has caught a lot more errors than C's type declarations
17:58 nothingmuch it has
17:58 luqui hmm
17:58 nothingmuch i am starting to like it
17:59 luqui well type inference is a difficult thing to implement
17:59 nothingmuch and i really distrusted C's
17:59 nothingmuch if we figure it out, though
17:59 luqui especially with the complexity of Perl 6's object model
17:59 nothingmuch MMD could be smarter
17:59 nothingmuch smartmatch could be smarter
17:59 luqui yeah, and contexts in calls could be smarter
17:59 nothingmuch because the compiler will know much much more about the containers
17:59 luqui which would be awesome
17:59 nothingmuch and their values
17:59 luqui one problem with type inference is that it is counter-opaque
17:59 nothingmuch how is context insensitivity at the proxy level dealt with, btw/
18:00 nothingmuch opacity could just be a border
18:00 nothingmuch type inferrence stops here
18:00 luqui yeah...
18:00 luqui nothingmuch: what do you mean by comments[-3]
18:00 nothingmuch it's class X's problem
18:00 nothingmuch i don't recall if i sent a message about context insensitivity to p6l
18:00 nothingmuch but it's one of the special cases i most hate dealing with in p5
18:01 nothingmuch wantarray should never be seen, if it's not at the leaf or the root of a call chain
18:01 nothingmuch what do you mean by "comments[-3]"?
18:01 nothingmuch ;-)
18:01 luqui poor naming choice.  nothingmuch[-3]
18:01 nothingmuch english is so much easier to type than say
18:01 luqui which is now nothingmuch[-9]
18:01 nothingmuch proxy level?
18:01 luqui yeah
18:01 nothingmuch sub foo { }
18:02 nothingmuch is a wrapper for sub bar { }
18:02 nothingmuch which takes bar's result
18:02 nothingmuch and also sends it into gorch {}
18:02 nothingmuch how does it do that, if bar is context sensitive
18:02 luqui oh yeah
18:02 nothingmuch and gorch is polymorphic
18:02 luqui Larry's thought of that too :-)
18:02 nothingmuch without actually caring about the fact that both are
18:02 nothingmuch and what it's own context is
18:02 luqui he just hasn't come to a solution
18:03 luqui It's almost globbish:  *foo = bar();  gorch(*foo)
18:03 nothingmuch ah, i did
18:03 nothingmuch 'retiring wantarray''
18:03 luqui oh, excellent
18:03 nothingmuch again, no replies =)
18:03 nothingmuch like my taint idea
18:03 PerlJam We need to get larry on here so that we can brainstorm in real-time with him.  
18:03 nothingmuch and, ...
18:03 PerlJam (mess up his mind faster that way ;)
18:03 nothingmuch PerlJam: i asked him
18:04 nothingmuch he said he doesn't want to do that, because he wants stuff logged
18:04 nothingmuch and slowly
18:04 nnunley_ has quit IRC ("Going home")
18:04 nothingmuch and less ADD insensitive
18:04 luqui you mean sensitive?
18:04 nothingmuch i mean less disturbing
18:04 luqui anyway, your wantarray problem is a tough one
18:04 nothingmuch so that he can answer in his own time
18:05 nothingmuch and not have to click on the irc window to see if new stuff has happenned every minute
18:05 luqui what it seems we need to do is to back-infer the type that bar() is supposed to return
18:05 PerlJam nothingmuch: It's saner that way for him.  I'd do the same were I he.
18:05 xerox has joined #perl6
18:05 nothingmuch right, type inferrence really would help DWIMery here
18:06 luqui The design calls are silent 40% or more of the time
18:06 nothingmuch especially if it's weak
18:06 nothingmuch (that is, type inferrence is not pedantic, just something you can leverege for sanity)
18:06 luqui It goes "Larry, problem", Larry: "............... well.................. we could (very good idea that he ends up rejecting)"
18:06 nothingmuch and it's good DWIMery
18:07 luqui and then two days later he posts a really really good idea
18:07 nothingmuch because it's very deterministic and defined
18:07 luqui yeah
18:07 nothingmuch retiring wantarray was about a week ago
18:07 luqui but I don't think it's a good idea to start defining language semantics based on a feature that we're not sure we'll implement
18:07 PerlJam luqui: maybe instead of the conference call, you guys should IRC once a week
18:07 nothingmuch well, then you design for both cases
18:07 luqui I think that would be dangerous
18:08 nothingmuch isn't that how you find out what looks better in the end?
18:08 nothingmuch you could autothread it ;-)
18:08 nothingmuch oh wait, we don't know how to do that safely
18:08 luqui nothingmuch: and the problem with that is that it starts restricting how we can define our type system
18:08 PerlJam Everyone of you with the exception of Larry already regularly IRCs :)
18:08 nothingmuch and then synopses will be contradicting
18:08 luqui damian?
18:08 nothingmuch allison?
18:09 rgs jhi?
18:09 luqui who's jhi?
18:09 PerlJam okay, and maybe damian (I don't think I've ever seen him on IRC)
18:09 nothingmuch isn't that jarkko?
18:09 luqui ahh
18:09 PerlJam He isn't part of the cabal is he?
18:09 nothingmuch is he even involved in p6?
18:10 rgs just throwing pumpkings in the arena
18:10 luqui I don't think I've ever spoken to him
18:10 luqui weren't you a pumpking rgs?
18:10 rgs actually, I am one
18:10 rgs for 5.10
18:10 luqui oh.  neat.
18:10 nothingmuch i think i might have seen some occurances in parrot
18:10 nothingmuch s/weren/aren/
18:10 * PerlJam DCCs some sympathy to rgs  ;)
18:11 nothingmuch luqui: is Inline:: designed in p6?
18:11 rgs sympathy, good :)
18:11 rgs tuits, better
18:11 nothingmuch i'd really like to mix and match given the fact that parrot "will make it easy"
18:11 nothingmuch i just have no real clue how it will look
18:11 luqui nothingmuch: I don't think we've really thought about it
18:11 luqui Ingy did an awful good job in perl 5
18:12 luqui we might just leave it up to him
18:12 nothingmuch i think he's already doing it =)
18:12 luqui good
18:12 nothingmuch oh, last thing
18:12 nothingmuch in p5 there is no lightweight threads
18:12 nothingmuch it's either two processes which can share some memory if you think it's worth it
18:13 nothingmuch or completely synchroneous, ala Coro, Event, POE
18:13 nothingmuch will we have proper threads
18:13 luqui lwall: "I think both the 5.005 model and the ithreads model are wrong to some extent"
18:13 nothingmuch that can be created and destroyed /fast/?
18:13 luqui the fast part is up to parrot
18:13 luqui we hope
18:13 nothingmuch 5.005 is more "right" for me
18:13 nothingmuch it can't be fast just like that, obviously
18:13 jabbot pugs - 1064 - just uploading the File::Spec progress -
18:14 nothingmuch if we copy everything then it'll be slow, even with copy on write
18:14 nothingmuch because you have to make everything readonly first
18:14 luqui I think the threading model will be up to the parrot folks in general though
18:14 luqui because they're having to tackle it, and we're not thinking about it
18:14 luqui so whatever we do will probably be whatever parrot does
18:14 nothingmuch =/
18:14 nothingmuch i think that's asking for trouble, in a way
18:14 luqui so get on parrot's ass if you want a particular model
18:14 nothingmuch not giving requirements to a design team
18:15 nothingmuch is not likely to come up synchroneous at the end
18:15 luqui I could bring it up today on the design call
18:15 * nothingmuch would like two things:
18:15 nothingmuch throwaway threads
18:15 nothingmuch that you create for cheap
18:15 nothingmuch when you just want to do somehing and not be interrupted
18:15 luqui every time I chat here on wednesdays I end up having to get a piece of paper for the call
18:16 nothingmuch and two mix two things:
18:16 luqui I think that's good
18:16 nothingmuch long running heavy computation
18:16 nothingmuch and responsive interfacing
18:16 nothingmuch into one thing
18:16 nothingmuch without making the the heavy computation complex, so that it can do funny things
18:16 nothingmuch this is a big design ease
18:16 nothingmuch i just ate crap with it in p5
18:16 nothingmuch because i thought i was building a batch system
18:16 PerlJam luqui: tell pmichaud "hi" for me if he's on the call.  He's been conspicuously absent from the places where I normally run into him.
18:16 nothingmuch and it turns out it should have a nice responsive web GUI too
18:17 nothingmuch so now i'm sort of screwed
18:17 PerlJam I'm hoping that's a good thing and that he's focusing on pge and/or pugs
18:17 nothingmuch and i will probably resort to using signal handlers
18:17 nothingmuch what about serializability? is that also for parrot?
18:17 nothingmuch i'd like to be able to store closures in a DB, sometimes
18:17 nothingmuch it makes things easier
18:17 luqui yeah, but they've declared their answer
18:18 luqui "we'll do serialization, and we'll serialize continuations too"
18:18 luqui which implies closures
18:18 nothingmuch are they serious about it?
18:18 luqui yep
18:18 nothingmuch i really don't see how that could be generalized well
18:18 * nothingmuch hopes that they get it right
18:18 PerlJam nothingmuch: #parrot exists you know :)
18:19 nothingmuch 0 members
18:19 nothingmuch "You were demoted from operator by ChanServ."
18:19 nothingmuch oh well
18:19 Khisanth not this network :)
18:19 luqui yeah, and luqui doesn't follow parrot *that* closely
18:19 nothingmuch on perl.org, p'raps?
18:19 PerlJam nothingmuch: magnet #parrot
18:19 PerlJam nothingmuch: aye
18:20 PerlJam All that's happened lately on #parrot though is that chip has been having fun nick switching.
18:20 PerlJam perhaps you'll stir them up a little.
18:21 * nothingmuch tried
18:22 nothingmuch bah, i got carried away
18:22 nothingmuch i promised myself i'd fix currying today
18:22 nothingmuch i think i'm going to try to be sort of busy
18:22 * luqui & { sleep 300; fg }
18:23 jabbot pugs - 1065 - adding some more File::Spec docs
18:25 nothingmuch well, /I/ answered another one of my p6l posts ;-)
18:25 sorje And you're complaining nobody's answering it.. ;-)
18:36 vladtz has joined #perl6
18:36 * luqui back
18:39 markstos has joined #perl6
18:40 vladtz hello
18:41 vladtz yesterday I ran into problems with ghc5.4 for x86_64
18:41 markstos vladtz: That sounds like a fairly old version of ghc. Is a newer version available for your platform?
18:42 vladtz today I tried using the i386 version of ghc6.4
18:42 vladtz s/5.4/6.4/ sorry
18:42 vladtz now it fails with asm errors, stillno luck (Fedore Core 3 gch64 rpm)
18:43 pasteling "vladtz" at 80.127.84.50 pasted "ghc 6.4 problems" (7 lines, 525B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8545
18:44 vladtz On the fedora haskell list I was told ghc for 64-bits lacks GHCi support needed for template syntac
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18:58 kungfuftr 125 subtests failing
19:06 nothingmuch luqui: more ideas
19:06 nothingmuch will closures be introspectable, in a way?
19:06 nothingmuch i mean, could i look inside one, and see what it does, what it's bound to?
19:08 nothingmuch re: type inferrence:
19:08 nothingmuch this would do wonders for unicode<->other codes
19:08 nothingmuch and for string representation and parsing of numers
19:08 nothingmuch i'd also like to do things like:
19:08 nothingmuch FH is file
19:08 nothingmuch or
19:08 luqui nothingmuch: about closures, umm... sortof
19:08 nothingmuch FH is viewed
19:09 luqui you probably can't look inside a closure unless we've kept its syntax tree around
19:09 nothingmuch so that if i print "$data" into either, it gets displayed for the user
19:09 nothingmuch i meant, could i do diotalevi type stuff to it
19:09 luqui and if we have, then you can look all you like
19:09 luqui diotalevi?
19:09 nothingmuch perlmonks
19:09 nothingmuch he does funny stuff in p5 guts
19:09 nothingmuch except you won't have to know p5 guts to do it
19:10 luqui splain
19:10 * luqui is no monk
19:10 theorbtwo You should fix that.
19:10 theorbtwo B::Deobfuscate.
19:10 nothingmuch i think he did it to demonstrate that inside out objects are also not a shotgun-in-the-livingroom type thing
19:10 nothingmuch i can't remember when or in what context he said that
19:10 nothingmuch i'll try to find the post
19:10 nothingmuch B::Deobfuscate is a simpler example of diotalevisms, i think =)
19:11 * nothingmuch really respects him
19:11 nothingmuch diotalevi++
19:11 nothingmuch the only one who didn't say i plagiarized MAPL on my first post
19:11 nothingmuch because he actually read it to see the details
19:11 * theorbtwo wonders WTF MAPL is.
19:12 nothingmuch mastering algorithms with perl
19:12 theorbtwo Ah.
19:12 nothingmuch i took the approx matcher
19:12 nothingmuch and redid it with closures
19:12 nothingmuch except i didn't quite title it right
19:13 nothingmuch and then everyone said i was an asshole for plagiarizing
19:13 nothingmuch except i wasn't showing off that I grok manber-wu
19:13 nothingmuch i was showing off that i grok closures
19:16 nothingmuch http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=315186
19:16 nothingmuch i know it's possible in pugs
19:16 nothingmuch that's what i've been doing for a while ;-)
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19:33 jabbot pugs - 1066 - Begin of an (OO) Email::Simple port.
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19:55 * nothingmuch 's mom is now on a cholesterol (chosthelerol, tee hee)
19:55 nothingmuch diet
19:55 * nothingmuch is helping her with the red wine =)
19:56 nothingmuch yay! larry answered!
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19:58 stevan iblechb++ # for the Email::Simple
19:58 stevan naddamucho
19:58 stevan wanna help me make :g work?
20:00 kungfuftr Email::Simple?
20:00 kungfuftr *blink*
20:00 stevan http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/mo​dules/Email-Simple/lib/Email/Simple.pm
20:01 nothingmuch stevan: naddamucho will not cause growl to pop a notification ;-)
20:01 stevan nothingmuch: sorry
20:01 stevan you need a bi-lingual IRC client :P
20:01 nothingmuch ok, well, i fixed it
20:01 nothingmuch try now
20:01 stevan naddamucho: hey
20:01 nothingmuch hola steffano!
20:02 stevan guten tag :P
20:02 stevan so before you get too silly on read wine, wanna help me with some Haskell?
20:02 nothingmuch sure
20:02 nothingmuch wine works slowly on me though
20:02 nothingmuch last week i was in a wedding
20:03 nothingmuch took 5 cups to get me willing to dance
20:03 nothingmuch get me to be? english doesn't make sense for me
20:03 * nothingmuch tries to think on that one
20:03 theorbtwo ...make me willing...
20:03 nothingmuch good point
20:03 theorbtwo ...get me to be willing...
20:03 stevan 5 cups to get you on the dance floor
20:04 nothingmuch that makes sense too
20:04 * nothingmuch should talk it sometime, not just type it
20:04 nothingmuch i don't "hear" it otherwise
20:04 stevan nothingmuch is *not* a cheap date
20:04 nothingmuch oh i'm cheap ;-)
20:04 theorbtwo ...should speak it...
20:04 nothingmuch i'd do anything for free food, attention, more alcohol etc
20:05 * theorbtwo recommends watching DVDs in english.
20:05 nothingmuch theorbtwo: actually that was intentional
20:05 theorbtwo Oh, whoops.
20:05 nothingmuch =)
20:05 nothingmuch even if it doesn't make sense, the point was to draw attention to the fact that it's 'talking', not just using it
20:05 nothingmuch i think
20:06 nothingmuch that's how i heard it in my head
20:06 nothingmuch which again, doesn't make sense
20:06 nothingmuch =(
20:06 nothingmuch and hearing doesn't help much either
20:06 iwt has joined #perl6
20:06 nothingmuch i do that a lot
20:06 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:06 nothingmuch but given a one week visit to an english speaking country, and I become much more coherent
20:07 nothingmuch i think that's fair, because most of my usable english was not learned by conversation
20:07 nothingmuch so anyway, staffenhof, what is your haskell problem?
20:08 nothingmuch and please don't count on me being able to help ;-)
20:11 nothingmuch stevan?
20:11 jabbot nothingmuch: stevan is gone.
20:12 kungfuftr heh, casey's liking the fact Email::Simple port is under way... looks like he's intrested in pugs
20:12 kungfuftr =0)
20:13 nothingmuch maybe we can get simon cozens to become an atheist this way ;-)
20:13 nothingmuch stevan is gugod--
20:13 nothingmuch steva?
20:13 nothingmuch stevan?
20:13 jabbot nothingmuch: stevan is gugod--
20:13 nothingmuch damn right, jabbot
20:14 Corion has joined #perl6
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20:15 Corion Two questions: What is the magic svn incantation to get the latest Pugs? And has somebody started on porting LWP ?
20:16 nothingmuch hola Corion!
20:16 nothingmuch svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
20:16 nothingmuch and then you have ./pugs
20:16 Corion Hi nothingmuch ! (and the rest of the crowd too :) )
20:16 crysflame hi, corion
20:16 Corion nothingmuch: Thanks!
20:16 stevan sorry nothingmuch
20:17 stevan client is on the phone
20:17 nothingmuch nono! your full attention is required at this time!
20:17 Corion (does Pugs have sockets at all? )
20:17 nothingmuch Corion: err, i doubt it
20:17 Corion Yay - checkout was fairly quick :)
20:17 nothingmuch you could write a todo_test
20:17 clkao has joined #perl6
20:17 nothingmuch and then when it passes, err, find out ;-)
20:17 crysflame heh
20:17 nothingmuch with LWP todo_testing a phone home address, that should be very easy =D
20:18 Corion nothingmuch: Ah - well, I'll look how far I get with the native call interface and maybe hack up some sockets thing that only works on Win32 :)
20:18 nothingmuch or you could stay involved with pugs
20:18 nothingmuch Corion: it's probably easier than you think
20:18 Corion nothingmuch: Heh - having Pugs tell me when it's ready would also be fun, true :)
20:18 nothingmuch remember that haskell is a high level address
20:18 ayrnieu a HLA, if you will.
20:18 nothingmuch s/address/language/
20:18 Corion nothingmuch: Well, I wanted to do a bit with Pugs and thought that starting a port of LWP would be a good thing :)
20:19 nothingmuch dad is confusing me, sorry
20:19 Corion Yeah - maybe Haskell has enough sockets to get me started...
20:19 nothingmuch i would start with something a wee bit simpler if i were you ;-)
20:19 nothingmuch what does sloccount LWP say?
20:19 ayrnieu Corion - oh, GHC certainly has socket support.  Even somewhat OK support.
20:20 Corion nothingmuch: Ah, I wrote something like LWP for Ruby (and then came back to Perl), so writing it for Pugs shouldn't be too hard :)
20:20 nothingmuch well, ok =)
20:20 ayrnieu Network.hs had a tiny maldesign, last I looked, but *that's OK*.
20:20 kungfuftr File::Path, Scalar::Util (some of it at least) and um... Set::Object!
20:20 stevan Corion: be forewarned that modules, packages and most importantly objects do *not* work in Pugs now
20:20 nothingmuch Corion: do you grok haskell yet?
20:20 nothingmuch Set::Object++
20:21 Corion stevan: Ugh - but something as simple as LWP::Simple doesn't need much of objects :)
20:21 kungfuftr Set operations in general are lovely
20:21 Corion nothingmuch: No - I can read it, but I don't understand types... I need to read a book on that I fear.
20:21 nothingmuch Corion: well, do remember that pugs is 51 days old
20:21 nothingmuch perlbot YAHT
20:21 perlbot Yet Another Haskell Tutorial -- http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/
20:21 Corion (but it should be enough to learn from existing stuff and modify existing stuff)
20:21 stevan Corion: sub returns values are sketchy right now too :)
20:21 nothingmuch that helped most tof us
20:22 Corion I already read YAHT (I think), but I didn't understand types.
20:22 nothingmuch and so are sub param bindings
20:22 stevan thanks to nothingmuch  :)
20:22 * nothingmuch is working on that ;-)
20:22 nothingmuch larry's post is confusing me
20:22 nothingmuch ooh, guests are here
20:22 nothingmuch bbiab
20:22 stevan Corion: dont let us discourage you though
20:23 stevan you can always port, and wait for the features
20:23 stevan thats what we did with most of the stuff in there now
20:23 Corion Hmmm. Param bindings aren't that necessary. But I guess I'll dig in and see how far I get and then bitch about it here :))
20:23 stevan Corion: if you wanna see a port/hack which does work (sort of) look in ext/FileSpec/*
20:24 stevan but beware, it gets ugly in there
20:24 Corion stevan: Yeah - your port gave me the idea of thinking what module I wanted to port, and LWP was the one I wanted (to make use of continuations)
20:24 stevan Corion: glad to inspire :)
20:25 Corion BTW - I got to chapter 4 of YAHT but the explanation of Types told me nothing (or I don't get what types are about)
20:25 stevan Corion: I havent read YAHT, and can't write Haskell myself, I'm just here for the Perl6 :)
20:26 ayrnieu Corian - in order to learn Haskell, I suspect that you will need to be able to leave many terms (such as 'monad') undefined for a while.
20:26 Corion stevan: Writing Haskell isn't that important to me (at least now), I also mostly want to do Perl6 as some quick exercise :)
20:26 stevan Corion: wanna help with the OO test suite?
20:26 Corion ayrnieu: Yeah, I could do that, but I prefer to learn stuff properly :-)
20:27 Corion stevan: I first have to get Pugs installed/compiled and get my feet wet a bit with it, then I can maybe churn out some tests for OO stuff, yes :)
20:27 stevan excellent
20:27 Corion (and I'd want some OO stuff for LWP sooner or later :) )
20:27 Corion Whooops - Pugs fails some tests in t/examples :)
20:27 stevan Corion: we have plenty of test failures in the current rev
20:28 stevan 115-125 I think
20:28 ayrnieu Corian - ... even if you want to learn Haskell properly, you may need to do as I suggested.
20:28 Corion Ah - so it's nothing to worry about :)
20:28 * ayrnieu will be offline for a few days.
20:28 stevan Corion: they are on the TODO list
20:28 Corion ayrnieu: Ah - well, I'll skip on that for the moment I guess - I can read Haskell well enough, and I got far with being able to read C too :)
20:30 Corion Ah - yes - 125 failures (25/118 scripts)
20:33 jabbot pugs - 1067 - Both $mail.header("From") and $mail.head
20:39 nothingmuch weeell
20:47 nothingmuch hyper defined as a circumfix:<« »>
20:47 nothingmuch which returns an anonymous infix operator
20:47 nothingmuch slurpy on both sides
20:47 nothingmuch ?
20:49 theorbtwo wouldn't that be circumfix:{'>><<'} ?
20:49 vladtz has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:49 theorbtwo Er, circumfix:<»«>
20:49 PerlJam theorbtwo: Those guillemets don't know which way they're pointing
20:51 stevan nothingmuch: is a multi-line comment in Haskell {-   -}?
20:51 theorbtwo Yes.
20:51 nothingmuch i have no clue
20:51 nothingmuch err, yes, theorbtwo, but what does it matter
20:51 theorbtwo {# ... #} is a compiler hint.
20:52 theorbtwo Well, I'd call $a>>$b<<$c a circumfix operator macro with a strange middle parameter... possibly.
20:52 Corion How do I tell Pugs to search the lib/ directory ? pugs -Ilib doesn't work, and C<use lib 'lib'> doesn't work either ...
20:52 stevan Corion: you set the PERL6LIB env variable
20:53 theorbtwo Oh, hi, Corion!
20:53 theorbtwo I thought -Ilib was working now... but yea, PERL6LIB.
20:53 Corion Hi theorbtwo!
20:54 Corion theorbtwo: At least as of five minutes ago, -Ilib didn't work :)
20:56 nothingmuch gugod++
20:56 nothingmuch gugod++
20:56 nothingmuch gugod++
20:57 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
20:59 Corion Gah. With infallible instinct I beelined for ext/SHA1/SHA1.pm, which doesn't work yet. But using that would make stealing some http/socket code from Haskel soo much easier :)
21:00 nothingmuch that's autrijus's latest hobby
21:00 Corion nothingmuch: Yeah - I read that in his latest journal :)
21:00 * nothingmuch feels redundant, and also tends to repeat information that is already known
21:00 nothingmuch http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal
21:02 stevan I don't think I like PCRE
21:02 stevan or Haskell either right now
21:02 nothingmuch stevan?
21:02 jabbot nothingmuch: stevan is gugod--
21:02 Khisanth PNCRE! :)
21:02 PerlJam blasphemer!
21:02 nothingmuch hah!
21:02 stevan I just spent all this time,.. only to realize I was changing code which was commented out :P
21:02 theorbtwo jabbot, forget stevan
21:03 jabbot theorbtwo: ok
21:03 Khisanth hmm NPCRE
21:03 nothingmuch theorbtwo: this is an incentive for gugod to change it =)
21:03 theorbtwo jabbot, stevan is Stevan Little (STEVAN)
21:03 jabbot theorbtwo: ©Ò¥H¡H
21:03 stevan then once I realized it was commented out,.. it totally shattered my understanding of all this
21:03 theorbtwo Blink... WTF?
21:03 nothingmuch stevan: use syntax coloring
21:04 stevan nothingmuch: I think I will just stay away from Haskell for now :)
21:04 PerlJam stevan: why?  Because you thought your changes were having the effects you wanted?
21:04 stevan PerlJam: I was in way over my head
21:04 stevan I was trying to add the :g support to Reg-exp
21:04 stevan and I am barely literate in C, and no at all in Haskell
21:05 stevan and :g takes understanding both
21:05 PerlJam stevan++  refusing to be limited by his lack of understanding  :-)
21:06 nothingmuch PerlJam++
21:06 stevan PerlJam: thanks :P
21:06 stevan coding_by_accident--
21:06 PerlJam stevan: sometimes it's okay to jump into the deep end even if you don't know how to swim--you'll learn real fast that way (occasionally)
21:07 markstos has quit IRC ("no reason")
21:07 * nothingmuch can vouch for that
21:07 nothingmuch at least perlbot karma nothingmuch can
21:07 nothingmuch luckily in puters you can't really drown either =)
21:08 Khisanth PerlJam: or you drown!
21:08 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:08 stevan svn revert is my friend :)
21:08 PerlJam Khisanth: metaphorical drowning is the best kind.
21:08 jabbot has joined #perl6
21:09 Khisanth only if you enjoy drowning
21:09 stevan svn++
21:09 nothingmuch it's like reading a book about heroin addicts
21:09 nothingmuch if it's really well written, you can nearly experience it
21:09 nothingmuch but then the book ends
21:09 nothingmuch and woah! you're not a junkie!
21:09 nothingmuch gugod++
21:09 nothingmuch stevan?
21:10 stevan nothingmuch?
21:10 PerlJam Khisanth: no, because once you've metaphorically drowned, you get that "phew! I'm glad *that's* over" kind of feeling and hopefully you've learned something
21:10 theorbtwo nothingmuch++
21:10 nothingmuch gugod++
21:10 PerlJam nothingmuch: Have you ever read the book _Bore Hole_  ?
21:10 * gugod *phew*
21:10 nothingmuch gugod fixed jabbot, so it doesn't thing 'stevan is gone' or something
21:10 nothingmuch and when people ask 'what?' it won't repeat the last 'what is ...' question
21:10 nothingmuch thanks gugod!
21:11 PerlJam what?
21:11 PerlJam :)
21:15 safrican has left
21:20 * nothingmuch delays bindSomeParams till larry replies
21:20 nothingmuch does someone have a todo for me?
21:21 luqui nothingmuch: about threading
21:21 luqui http://groups-beta.google.com/group/pe​rl.perl6.language/browse_frm/thread/5c​925e833a73846f/678f5ac96b258981?q=thre​ading+perl6-language#678f5ac96b258981
21:21 luqui musings.  responses about it would be nice
21:21 luqui (bring it up on p6l if you like)
21:21 stevan nothingmuch: please do s:g:perl5/// :)
21:22 nothingmuch stevan: i think that is beyond me, but i'll try
21:22 theorbtwo nothingmuch, do -Ifoo
21:22 stevan if  you can just grok how regexp are made that might help
21:22 nothingmuch -I like in PERL6LIB?
21:22 theorbtwo Yeah.
21:22 luqui p6 design call going on now
21:23 luqui any Great Questions, shout
21:23 * nothingmuch gave a bunch of "details details" questions about param binding on p6l
21:23 nothingmuch but aside from that i'm happy
21:23 nothingmuch except for what we discussed earlier
21:23 nothingmuch idea:
21:23 nothingmuch is lazy semantics:
21:23 nothingmuch it's an lvalue trait
21:24 nothingmuch it causes the assignment to be made into a closure
21:24 nothingmuch which executes as late as possible
21:24 nothingmuch instead of now
21:24 nothingmuch it's clear, it's controlled
21:24 nothingmuch and it's, useful
21:24 nothingmuch but it's not the default
21:24 nothingmuch and it's not too magical
21:27 luqui hmm...
21:27 luqui i think that deserves a proposal to p6l
21:27 luqui and I promise that I'll think about it and reply :-)
21:28 nothingmuch ok, i'll do that
21:28 nothingmuch but first i'll try to help stevan with :g
21:28 stevan yeah!!!!!!!!!
21:28 PerlJam lvalue trait?
21:28 stevan nothingmuch + Inf
21:29 nothingmuch PerlJam: the receiver gets to decide
21:29 PerlJam It sounds more like a trait of the operator than the lvalue
21:29 nothingmuch wait, no, that doesn't make sense
21:29 nothingmuch mostly i'd like it in the sender
21:29 nothingmuch but sometimes in the receiver
21:29 luqui but it could be = that does the magic by checking the trait
21:29 nothingmuch you're right, more of a trait of the operator
21:30 nothingmuch and also, lazily assigned values passed on simply retain laziness
21:30 nothingmuch (see also fruitful IRC backlog with theorbtwo and someone else about how this could be fun)
21:30 nothingmuch (this could be done with taint generalization!!!! reply to that message!)
21:31 theorbtwo Sounds like a trait of the values: if either side is but lazy then the thing being assined to ends up but lazy.
21:31 PerlJam nothingmuch: when would you want it in the receiver?
21:31 theorbtwo (Which makes lazyness quite infectious.)
21:31 nothingmuch PerlJam: i don't know
21:31 PerlJam theorbtwo: yeah, it could be a trait of the rvalue.
21:31 nothingmuch it just made sense for a while
21:32 PerlJam (so far, only rvalue traits make sense anyway :-)
21:32 nothingmuch it could be a trait of the container
21:32 nothingmuch actually the context
21:32 nothingmuch which belongs to the container and the operator together
21:33 theorbtwo I'm thinking on the rvalue or the operator makes sense.
21:33 theorbtwo Though I'm not sure how traits on an infix operator would look.
21:33 nothingmuch i see this relating to:
21:34 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
21:34 nothingmuch my $var = BEGIN { make_a_value }
21:35 theorbtwo Hm, I wonder if a lazy prefix operator is enough.
21:35 theorbtwo my $var = lazy (42!);
21:35 theorbtwo (Er, except there aren't numeric postfix operators, but you get the point.)
21:36 nothingmuch type inferrence could help make things like that optimized lazy
21:36 nothingmuch if luqui gets his way, we could have auto laziness in subsets where the compiler recognizes ops are pupre
21:36 nothingmuch and then you wouldn't have to do that
21:37 nothingmuch what it /would/ be useful for is to say:
21:37 nothingmuch even though this op reads a file, and that should in general not be lazy
21:37 nothingmuch i /do/ want it to be lazy
21:37 nothingmuch because for this case i don't care
21:37 PerlJam Hmm.
21:37 nothingmuch my @array will vivify { }
21:37 nothingmuch that's basically what i want
21:38 nothingmuch but i don't want to tie
21:38 nothingmuch and i don't want to if $sub ~~ Sub
21:38 nothingmuch and so on, and so forth
21:38 nothingmuch and i want to be able to send this stuff safely into the unknown
21:38 nothingmuch that is, someone elses well behaved p6 code
21:39 PerlJam Suddenly it seems that control of the lazy is ueber important.  Maybe it's just me though.
21:39 nothingmuch lazy without control will not work in a non pure language, period
21:40 nothingmuch unless it's guaranteed to be safe
21:40 nothingmuch like haskell arranges for it to be
21:40 nothingmuch it won't be safe
21:40 nothingmuch and someone will cry
21:40 nothingmuch or arrange for nested laziness myself
21:40 nothingmuch i don't like the fact that gather will pause execution of a closure until it needs to take
21:40 PerlJam perhaps we need a use-like operator called "be" ... then we can lexically scope laziness with "be lazy"  :-)
21:40 nothingmuch if it were lazy i would expect it to be all or nothing
21:41 nothingmuch but going that far, for coolness, or whatever, is just too much
21:41 nothingmuch =)
21:41 nothingmuch use sloth;
21:41 nothingmuch but then again
21:42 nothingmuch since 'use integer' was made into a type system thingy
21:42 nothingmuch for better fine grained control
21:42 nothingmuch i think we should aim for this in new features too
21:42 Corion How do I find out in Haskell if a string starts with a certain substring?
21:43 nothingmuch also, laziness is definately /not/ good backwards compatibility behavior
21:43 nothingmuch because many people optimize with strictness in mind
21:43 PerlJam perl 5's "use integer" has always annoyed me because it doesn't do what I want.
21:43 nothingmuch http://www.cs.uu.nl/~afie/​haskell/tourofprelude.html
21:44 theorbtwo You match it against ('x':rest), and rest will be the rest.
21:44 nothingmuch http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/lates​t/html/libraries/base/Data.List.html
21:44 Corion theorbtwo: That means I'll have to manually to a match for every element in the string/list ? Ugh.
21:44 theorbtwo Note that that doesn't follow for longer strings -- it's ('-':'I':rest) for the rest.
21:45 Corion theorbtwo: Ah - that's nicer :)
21:45 theorbtwo I don't know if you can match "-I" ++ rest -- probably not, since ++ is a regular function but : is a constructor.
21:46 Corion theorbtwo: How did you know that I want to match "-I" ? :-))
21:46 * theorbtwo is psychic.
21:46 PerlJam you could always  take 2 string
21:47 PerlJam (and drop 2 string for when you need the rest)
21:48 nothingmuch stevan: i think this is not going to be too easy
21:48 stevan nothingmuch: yup :)
21:48 stevan autrijus said it was,.. but I dont believe him
21:48 stevan autrijus++
21:49 stevan nothingmuch++ # for just looking at it
21:49 nothingmuch i haven't given up yet =)
21:49 stevan nothingmuch++ # for perseverence
21:49 stevan perlbot highest karma
21:49 nothingmuch bah
21:49 perlbot The top 5 karma entries: nothingmuch: 40, autrijus: 40, C: 27, ~brad2901: 26, stevan: 24
21:50 nothingmuch nothingmuch--
21:50 stevan C--
21:50 PerlJam autrijus++ because he can never have enough
21:50 stevan who is brad2901?
21:50 nothingmuch tr/,/d
21:50 nothingmuch he came in, and implemented some important feature (given, was it?) in a blitz
21:51 nothingmuch and, i think that was it
21:51 mj has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:51 nothingmuch i think rregex just doesn't really provide the interface
21:52 nothingmuch it only knows /i and /s vs normal
21:53 stevan but I think /g would work just like /i and /s
21:53 nothingmuch yeah
21:53 stevan it seemed to me that PCRE just too a combined flag or "options"
21:53 nothingmuch but this would mean fixes at many levels
21:53 nothingmuch PCRE seems to use an int
21:54 stevan yeah, if you look at compile in src/RRegex/PCRE.hs
21:54 stevan -> Int    -- ^ Flags (summed together)
21:55 nothingmuch uhuh
21:55 nothingmuch that's the first place i looked
21:55 stevan I had original made my changes at line 220 in src/RRegex/Syntax.hs
21:55 stevan but then I realized it was commented out
21:55 nothingmuch perhaps with [RegexOpts] where data RegexOps = I | G | S ...
21:55 nothingmuch now i want to see how i can make mkRegexWithOpts a bit nicer
21:56 nothingmuch and then they are simply applied to the flag in order
21:56 stevan yeah I messed with mkRegexWithOpts as well
21:56 stevan that was the only thing which worked, although it spewed warnings
21:57 stevan the one part I was unsure of was that there is no pcreGreedy
21:57 stevan just an pcreUngreedy
21:57 nothingmuch greedy = :g?
21:57 stevan yeah
21:58 nothingmuch why not "global"?
21:58 stevan oh
21:58 stevan uhm
21:58 stevan I am not sure what the long form is
21:58 stevan but it makes it match all the instances
21:58 _metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
21:59 nothingmuch oh well
21:59 stevan so I think of it as greed
21:59 stevan y
22:01 Khisanth stevan: for :g?
22:01 PerlJam historically that's "global".  "greedy" is something else entirely  :)
22:01 stevan doesn't s///g match greedily?
22:01 stevan or is my nomenclature off?
22:02 nothingmuch g is the 9th bit
22:02 Khisanth erm no
22:02 Khisanth that g is global :)
22:02 PerlJam stevan: if you mean "globally", then yes. :)
22:02 Khisanth greedy is on by default
22:02 theorbtwo Greedy is if * matches as much as possible or as little as possible.
22:02 nothingmuch Ungreedy makes .* behave like .*?
22:02 nothingmuch i hope
22:02 theorbtwo (In perl, plain * is greedy; *? is ungreedy.)
22:02 Khisanth nothingmuch: with pcre?
22:02 stevan ok, ignore me then,.. i mean global :)
22:02 nothingmuch :g really just reiterates
22:02 nothingmuch i don't know, i hope
22:02 nothingmuch =)
22:02 nothingmuch and i think reiterating is the wrapper's job
22:03 stevan pcreUngreedy,   --  matches are not greedy by default
22:03 Khisanth well not quite, according to pcre manpage
22:03 nothingmuch hmmm
22:03 Khisanth ungreedy makes * ungreedy but *? greedy
22:03 stevan according to src/RRegex/PCRE.hs
22:03 PerlJam Khisanth: that's so evil.
22:03 theorbtwo Uff.  That's confusing.
22:03 stevan *glug* *glug* <<< that is me drowning  :P
22:03 Khisanth that particular option also makes it incompatible with Perl RE :)
22:04 nothingmuch i think we should all read pcre docs first
22:04 Khisanth should this really be including features that make it incompatible with Perl's RE for better or worse?
22:04 Corion theorbtwo: How did you know that I want to match "-I" ? :-))
22:04 PerlJam Khisanth: why not?  pcre will never be compatible with p6rules.
22:04 Corion Ooops - sorry
22:05 theorbtwo Hit talk, not reload.  ;)
22:05 PerlJam Khisanth: as long as it's clear that you're using PCRE
22:05 Khisanth PerlJam: neither is Perl's RE...
22:05 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
22:05 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
22:06 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "pcre docs: ungreedy" (6 lines, 294B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8549
22:06 Khisanth PerlJam: I was hoping that if I used perl5 REs in perl6, they would actually work exactly the same :/
22:06 Khisanth you know, least suprise and all ...
22:06 justatheory has quit IRC ()
22:06 stevan Khisanth: I wouldnt worry I think PCRE is temporary
22:08 nothingmuch By calling pcre_exec() multiple times with appropriate argu-
22:08 nothingmuch       ments, you can mimic Perl's /g option, and it is in this kind of imple-
22:08 nothingmuch       mentation where \G can be useful.
22:08 nothingmuch you need to send it startoffset
22:08 nothingmuch http://www.pcre.org/pcre.txt
22:11 lumi_ has joined #perl6
22:11 nothingmuch executeExtract
22:11 nothingmuch we seem to want that for :g
22:12 stevan execute calls c_pcre_exec too
22:13 nothingmuch *yawn*
22:15 stevan wow,.. its really snowing here now
22:15 stevan nothingmuch: line 76 in Syntax.hs maybe?
22:16 nothingmuch 72?
22:16 nothingmuch it just makes a lazilist with matchOnce ;-)
22:18 stevan *sigh* why does autrijus have to sleep :P
22:18 alinbsp has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:18 pasteling "Corion" at 217.86.59.98 pasted "Types question - why doesn't this work when I add the types?" (15 lines, 393B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8550
22:19 nothingmuch there's actually an infix =~
22:19 Corion I got it working by punting and filtering out the empty string, but I think I should use "Maybe String" and "Nothing" instead
22:19 nothingmuch cool =)
22:20 Corion (and when I transfer my code into Run.hs, it blows up because of incompatible types still)
22:20 justatheory has joined #perl6
22:22 iwt has quit IRC (Client Quit)
22:22 nothingmuch Corion: Maybe stuff means you must put monad fun into it all
22:22 Corion nothingmuch: I guess it's just too late in the evening for my brain %-)
22:23 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
22:29 nothingmuch Corion: perhaps another solution:
22:29 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "-Ifoo" (14 lines, 233B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8551
22:29 nothingmuch maybe you like that better
22:30 nothingmuch or even nicer:
22:30 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "with drop" (12 lines, 204B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8552
22:31 Corion nothingmuch: Yeah - that's OK too, but I would really want to introduce the types ( a -> Maybe a )... But maybe I just don't understand what the types are for :)
22:31 nothingmuch what types?
22:31 * nothingmuch didn't do any types
22:33 Corion nothingmuch: Yes, but I want to do types.
22:33 nothingmuch what for?
22:33 nothingmuch line 48 of Run.hs:     (libs, args) <- getLibs environ args
22:34 Corion nothingmuch: Or rather, when integrating the stuff with Pugs, I get type errors, so something in my understanding must be wrong
22:34 Corion nothingmuch: Line 48 looks different in my version, but I added something to that effect, yes.
22:35 Corion (or did I miss somebody adding -I support already? :) )
22:35 nothingmuch i don't think
22:36 nothingmuch that's what i suggested changing
22:37 Corion Ah. It was just plain stupidity on my part. Cargo-culting only gets you so far :)
22:38 nothingmuch i have a diff you might be interested in
22:38 Corion (at least Pugs is now compiling again. I should now write a test against -I ...)
22:38 nothingmuch want to share?
22:39 ninereasons is a "topic" going to be read-only by default?
22:39 pasteling "Corion" at 217.86.59.98 pasted "-I support for Pugs (preliminary, only against Run.hs, needs equivalent change in Main.hs)" (23 lines, 785B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8554
22:39 Corion nothingmuch: Needs the reverse of your line 48 applied:
22:39 Corion    libs    <- getLibs (args) (environ)
22:39 Corion ... and the same in Main.hs
22:40 nothingmuch ok, that's good
22:40 nothingmuch except, you need to also return the new arg list
22:40 stevan ninereasons: why do you ask?
22:40 nothingmuch so that -Ifoo doesn't end up in @*ARGS
22:40 ninereasons stevan, I wondered if we would be able to do something like map { $_++ }  @a
22:40 Corion nothingmuch: Ooops - yeah, that's true ... But not tonight anymore :)
22:41 nothingmuch want me to take it on from there?
22:41 nothingmuch it's a simple fix
22:41 Corion BTW, Failed 25/118 test scripts, 78.81% okay. 125/2867 subtests failed, 95.64% okay. <- nothing new broke, right?
22:41 Corion nothingmuch: Yes, please do :)
22:41 nothingmuch i would go with isLibArg
22:41 nothingmuch and map drop 2
22:41 justatheory has joined #perl6
22:41 nothingmuch and partition on that
22:41 nothingmuch ok
22:41 stevan ninereasons: I dont think that would work in Pugs right now, but I imagine it will in perl6
22:41 Corion nothingmuch: Ah, well - I'm not wed to my implementation :)
22:41 nothingmuch just because it's easier to shove it to partition ;-)
22:42 Corion nothingmuch: I like the pattern-matching declaration style, but the other way seems just as good. I don't know any Good Style for Haskell anyway :)
22:42 Ovid has joined #perl6
22:42 Corion (and now it's bedtime for me. I expect results tomorrow, nothingmuch :))
22:42 nothingmuch ciao
22:43 Corion Good night all :)
22:43 stevan good night Corion
22:44 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 0.10.1/20041001]")
22:44 ninereasons stevan, am I correct to have supposed that my question concerns the properties of a "topic" ( that: "Topic eq $_")?
22:44 stevan yes (but I am no expert on this)
22:45 stevan there are many variables in Pugs which should be mutable, but are immutable instead
22:45 stevan but that is a TODO item
22:46 ninereasons ok - that gets to the real issue. Thanks.
22:46 ninereasons I'm still trying to sort out the TODOs and the real constraints
22:48 nothingmuch ninereasons: please write tests for these stuff
22:49 nothingmuch things
22:49 nothingmuch they make it impossible not to define it later
22:49 nothingmuch if you need commit access autrijus, obra, stevan or me can all give you that
22:49 ninereasons I'm not a programmer, though, nothingmuch.  
22:49 ninereasons I am a luser of perl
22:50 nothingmuch tests are in perl =)
22:51 nothingmuch (perl6, that is)
22:51 ninereasons I would like to help; but I don't want to screw things up with bad commits
22:52 stevan ninereasons: thats what svn is for :)
22:52 nothingmuch don't worry about that
22:52 nothingmuch revision control lets you or anyone else cleanup
22:52 nothingmuch and you can always test before you commit
22:52 stevan we can always revert back if there is something wrong
22:53 ninereasons then I would like to help
22:53 nothingmuch ok, so just go for it =)
22:54 nothingmuch any help is appreciated
22:54 nothingmuch if you write a test, which is 50% good
22:54 nothingmuch that's still 80% of the work
22:54 ninereasons (since y'all are being so careless^h^h^h^h^h^h nice)
22:54 nothingmuch carelessness has brought this project where it is today
22:54 nothingmuch it's autrijus' mantra
22:54 nothingmuch and it works =)
22:54 theorbtwo You're a meta-comitter now, nm?
22:54 stevan nothingmuch++
22:55 nothingmuch committerbitter
22:55 nothingmuch =)
22:55 stevan me too :)
22:55 nothingmuch you should also be, theorbtwo
22:55 nothingmuch you have a funny sleep cycle
22:55 theorbtwo Very.
22:55 stevan i went to sleep on night not one,.. and woke up the next morning and I was :P
22:55 stevan with theorbtwo we would be covered 24/7 for sure :P
22:56 stevan all major time zones I think
22:56 * theorbtwo ponders a reorg of AUTHORS.
22:56 stevan theorbtwo: I think it is alphabetical
22:56 theorbtwo It is.
22:56 stevan to minimize egos maybe?
22:57 theorbtwo To whit, alphebetical by what appears first on the line.
22:57 theorbtwo Well, I did it because that's how Aut had it.  I suspect Aut had it that way because that is the correct way to alphebetize Han names.
22:59 * theorbtwo wonders if autrijus minds "aut".
22:59 stevan how were you going to re-org it anyway?
22:59 nothingmuch i think Autrijus Tang is actually reversed for a westerny appearance, otherwise Bestian Tang won't make sense, right?
23:00 nothingmuch we'd better ask him
23:00 stevan who is Bestian?
23:00 stevan iblech++ # for Geo::Distance this time
23:00 theorbtwo Oh, I assumed they were unrelated people who happened to share a family name.  There aren't that many of them.
23:02 nothingmuch in the perl6 interview he autrijus mentiones 'math minded brother Bestian'
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23:03 theorbtwo I meant reorg it to be more like the linux kernel's authors file, which is more like a flattened hash.
23:03 jabbot pugs - 1069 - Port of Geo::Distance 0.08.
23:03 jabbot pugs - 1068 - more File::Spec documentation and cleanu
23:04 stevan never seen it, so I have no idea what you are talking about :)
23:04 nothingmuch i want one variation that takes two args
23:04 nothingmuch how do i do context polymorphic functions in haskell?
23:04 nothingmuch and gives back a pair
23:04 nothingmuch and one that takes one arg
23:04 nothingmuch and gives back a list
23:05 stevan ok, time for me too eat and hang with the wife and kids
23:05 stevan see you guys later
23:05 nothingmuch beh!
23:05 nothingmuch family smushiness is for nerds!
23:05 stevan nothingmuch: isnt it past your bedtime :P
23:06 nothingmuch if you are really a geek then you would be more|less nerdy
23:06 nothingmuch more&less nerdy
23:06 nothingmuch pushing it, stevan
23:06 stevan nothingmuch++
23:06 stevan theorbtwo++
23:06 stevan autrijus++
23:06 nothingmuch everyone++
23:07 stevan iblech++ # for the Email::Simple test suite in perl6 too
23:07 nothingmuch we are very touchy-feely with all this ++ stuff
23:07 nothingmuch we should start hugging each other
23:07 stevan nothingmuch: its a virtual hug over the wires
23:07 stevan ok,.. I am going for real now
23:07 stevan adios
23:07 nothingmuch ciao!
23:09 theorbtwo Later, stevan.
23:10 * theorbtwo wonders.
23:10 theorbtwo perlbot karma everyone
23:10 perlbot Karma for everyone: 2
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23:23 * theorbtwo wishes there was an easy way to say "keep going till you can't keep going no more" in a regex.
23:23 theorbtwo That is, make everything optional.
23:23 theorbtwo Sadly, I think that's a bit too close to AI to be doable.
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23:26 luqui theorbtwo: why do you want that?
23:27 theorbtwo What I'm doing at present moment is a regex to grok the (present) AUTHORS format.
23:27 theorbtwo ...in which pretty much everything is optional.
23:28 luqui what's wrong with a bunch of question-marks?
23:29 theorbtwo It's rather verbose, and I keep having to introduce (?: ... ) blocks for them.
23:29 luqui oh, that's all
23:29 luqui I thought you were talking about a real problem
23:30 luqui anyway, it really is bedtime now (up for 23 hours).  night everybody
23:30 * luqui &
23:30 theorbtwo Sleep well.
23:30 theorbtwo And long!
23:32 ihb luqui: is development of Math::LOgic::Predicate dead?
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23:43 nothingmuch pugs -Ifoo is implemented
23:44 nothingmuch twas a bit tricker than I thought
23:50 nothingmuch 1070
23:53 jabbot pugs - 1070 - pugs -Ilib hack (getArgs added in getLib
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