Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:05 kungfuftr (perl medic)++ # good business reasons as well as technical
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00:58 stevan ingy? you still there?
01:02 Limbic_Region seen ingy
01:02 jabbot Limbic_Region: ingy was seen on Tue Mar 29 07:54:42 2005
01:03 stevan damn the rotation of the earth
01:03 stevan they sleep while we are awake, we sleep while they are awake
01:03 stevan bah
01:05 stevan thank L~R
01:05 Limbic_Region walang anuman stevan
01:06 stevan gahzuntight :P
01:06 Limbic_Region the solution btw is to work on 26 hour days - you shift in an out of alignment with all 24 timezones ;-)
01:06 Limbic_Region walang anuman = you're welcome in Tagalog (Philippines)
01:07 stevan we need a perl6 jet which just circles the earth chasing the sun
01:08 Limbic_Region what we really need is for me to win the lottery so I can personally fund the pugs/p6/parrot/ponie hackers around the world full-time in a central location
01:09 stevan Limbic_Region: from your secret world headquarters high in the himalayas
01:10 stevan where you can plan to take over the world one shell script at a time :P
01:10 stevan (sorry, been a long day, the caffine is wearing off)
01:13 * Limbic_Region was voted most likely to sit on a mountain top philosophizing (really) in highschool
01:13 stevan s/philosophizing/plotting world domination/ :)
01:13 stevan sounds cooler
01:13 Odin-LAP You mean those aren't synonymous?
01:14 stevan Odin-LAP: good point
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01:25 ingy stevan: back
01:25 stevan hey
01:25 stevan so I was wondering how your Makefile battle went?
01:25 stevan did you fix the Test.pm problem?
01:25 ingy good I think
01:25 ingy yes.
01:25 stevan excellent
01:26 ingy yes, sorry about that
01:26 stevan do you think it is safe to turn on the File::Spec Makefile?
01:26 ingy did it overwrite or shadow the Perl5 Test.pm
01:26 stevan not sure I never use Test.pm :)
01:26 ingy stevan: I can do it
01:27 ingy I'll make sure it is safe
01:27 stevan ingy: your a sweetheart :)
01:27 ingy ^^ *you're*
01:27 stevan yeah that
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01:28 * stevan has had a long day, and should really just go watch TV and vegetate, but is somehow drawn to Pugs
01:30 ingy Installing /Users/ingy/local/lib/perl6/File/Spec.pm
01:30 ingy Installing /Users/ingy/local/lib/perl6/File/Spec/Unix.pm
01:30 ingy Installing /Users/ingy/local/lib/perl6/File/Spec/Win32.pm
01:30 ingy :)
01:30 stevan excellent
01:30 stevan thanks much
01:30 stevan ingy++
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01:37 jabbot pugs - 1292 - We can install File::Spec now that MakeM
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02:07 jabbot pugs - 1294 - more Pod::Stream::Parser work; added bet
02:07 jabbot pugs - 1293 - adding Rule test to ref.t; adding variab
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02:17 jabbot pugs - 1295 - added File::Spec usage in the test; adde
02:31 kungfuftr chip: yullo?
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03:30 crysflame File::Spec?
03:30 crysflame in perl6?
03:30 crysflame ingy++
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04:43 joejiang wait a minute
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04:57 jabbot pugs - 1296 - add some tests on **,Inf,NaN
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05:36 * theorbtwo wonders if anybody is up.
05:36 simcop2387 no
05:36 simcop2387 Braccae tuae aperiuntur
05:36 * theorbtwo wonders if there is English involved somewhere there.
05:37 simcop2387 its latin for "Your fly is open"
05:37 theorbtwo Ah.
05:37 simcop2387 Quid agis, medice? i wish i could say that with the right accent
05:37 simcop2387 "What's up, doc?"
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06:49 gaal http://www.kimbly.com/blog/000402.html <- this, thankfully, isn't happenning to us
06:49 theorbtwo Aaah, people are beginning to show up!
06:49 gaal morning, theorbtwo :)
06:50 theorbtwo ...that we know of, gaal.
06:50 gaal for one thing, we aren't billing.
06:50 theorbtwo True enough.
06:50 gaal if par makes it to the core (it had better!) then deployment will be ever easier
06:51 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
06:51 gaal most of the things in the top row are fixed by the open dynamics of the project
06:52 gaal there was no mention of quality, but i think we're not skimping on that one
06:53 gaal well, the recent talk on p6l makes me think of the system analyst pane :)
06:53 theorbtwo Sadly, I missed it.
06:53 theorbtwo I suppose I could have read the IRC log... in fact, IIRC, I read some of it...
06:54 gaal deploying p5 in production environments is a *pain*.
06:55 gaal to2, read p6-lang, thre's some talk about very weird new operators for units. they'll be hella powerful, but weird.
06:56 mugwump yes, that's why there are so few production environments running p5
06:57 jabbot pugs - 1297 - Locale::KeyedText update - completed syn
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07:03 theorbtwo Interesting, gaal.
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07:04 sdtr443w So how do I actually run PUGS after I install it?
07:05 gaal the same way you run PERL
07:06 sdtr443w Well ... uhh ... is there supposed to be a binary or something?
07:06 sdtr443w A script?
07:06 scw binary
07:06 gaal there's a binary, sure. did you "make install"?
07:06 gaal it's called pugs
07:06 sdtr443w yes
07:06 sdtr443w Well...
07:06 gaal pugs -v
07:06 sdtr443w I don't see it
07:06 sdtr443w I'll try it one more time
07:07 gaal how did you install, from sourec? binary package?
07:07 jabbot pugs - 1298 - SQL::Routine update - this work was done
07:07 sdtr443w Wow it's doing a lot now for whatever reason
07:08 sdtr443w I gotta look at my history and make sure I really did run it twice before already
07:08 sdtr443w (make install, that is)
07:15 sdtr443w It was skipping a bunch of stuff so I have this feeling it got halfway through it and quit before
07:16 gaal before you make install, please make test
07:19 mugwump Anyone know who steven little @ iinteractive is on IRC?
07:19 gaal stevan?
07:19 mugwump oops, ye s:)
07:20 * theorbtwo was looking through Parser.hs earlier...
07:20 mugwump oh, duh, there's the AUTHORs file
07:20 Jouke has left
07:20 * theorbtwo grins.
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07:22 sdtr443w It seems to terminate while trying to compile AST in the make phase
07:22 gaal error message?
07:22 sdtr443w It had died earlier in Rule.Token
07:22 sdtr443w nothing
07:22 sdtr443w just "make: *** [pugs] Terminated"
07:23 gaal welrd. do you have enough free memory / disk? sounds like a system problem to me.
07:23 gaal what version of ghc are you using?
07:23 gaal + OS
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07:24 sdtr443w It may be a system problem -- the computer sucks
07:24 sdtr443w 128MB of RAM being the main constraint.  I have many GB of hard disk space free.
07:25 sdtr443w I installed GHC 6.4; I'm running all this on 32-bit SuSE 9.2.
07:25 gaal i'd try attaching strace to ghc and see if it dies from some signal
07:26 gaal start make in one window; then in another, ps aux|grep ghc to get its pid
07:26 gaal then do strace -o somefile -p that_pid
07:27 gaal when make dies, tail -30 somefile
07:27 sdtr443w Would you be interested in this now?  I wasn't expecting so much trouble and I intended to go to bed soon.
07:27 gaal that might clue you in.
07:27 sdtr443w But I'll be trying this tomorrow evening.
07:27 gaal it's you who should be interested :) we're just here to help.
07:27 sdtr443w Well, if it's interesting some people would likely want to know
07:28 sdtr443w Though I dunno if this is the right hour for this kind of thing on this channel
07:28 gaal this channel has no hours, or rather, has all hours
07:28 gaal it's morning for me now, but if you want to pick this up later, feel free to come again later.
07:29 gaal there are sure to be people here to help you then.
07:30 nothingmuch sdtr443w: i think it might be worth to ask on #haskell about ghc issues like this
07:30 nothingmuch i think i might be able to help
07:30 nothingmuch but only with constant ping-ponging
07:30 nothingmuch so you'd better bring this up again when you have more time
07:31 sdtr443w Yeah well it may be a GHC thing since the machine I'm doing this on seems to sieze up when compiling AST
07:31 sdtr443w I couldn't even get it to run ps
07:31 Juerd food morning!
07:31 Juerd eh
07:31 Juerd good morning!
07:31 nothingmuch there's a param to GHC in the Makefile
07:31 nothingmuch -H200M i think
07:31 nothingmuch it tells it to use 200M of memory to do some stuff
07:31 Juerd Psychological typo - I do want food :)
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07:32 gaal "freudean sleep" :))
07:32 sdtr443w Oh that would be relevant
07:32 Juerd gaal: heh
07:34 sdtr443w nothingmuch: I changed -H200 to -H100 wherever I found it in the Makefile.  It seemed to survive this time
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07:35 sdtr443w If it's assumed I will have 256MB of RAM, does this mean PUGS is going to crawl for me?
07:35 Juerd Are you discussing Hyundai vans? :)
07:35 Juerd (H100, H200)
07:35 sdtr443w They make vans?
07:35 Juerd Yes, the H100 and the H200 :)
07:35 Juerd Perhaps more.
07:35 sdtr443w Well I must have the "lite" version then.
07:35 theorbtwo Anyway, I was wondering if there was a good reason that identifier `sepBy1` (try $ string "::") is spread all over the place, rather then being in some central location.
07:35 Juerd My dad owned two H100 and has his second H200 now
07:36 Pomin has joined #perl6
07:36 sdtr443w He must like them
07:36 Juerd A comfortable turbo diesel, that current one
07:36 sdtr443w I wish I had a turbo on mine
07:36 Juerd Airco (uncommon here), and for a van, silent too.
07:36 sdtr443w I have a short bus and it crawls sometimes haha
07:37 Juerd My dad easily wins from my 1.6 Hyundai Lantra
07:37 sdtr443w Oh grand -- the make command didn't find readline
07:37 Juerd It's really shameful to see a van accellerate quicker
07:37 Juerd With you flooring
07:38 gaal readline is optional, sdt443w.
07:38 Juerd Wow, gaal, do you type nicknames fully?
07:38 sdtr443w well it caused ld to return 1 and then I get "make: *** [pugs] Error 1
07:39 sdtr443w Now gaal didn't type it right
07:39 sdtr443w Here's how you do it:
07:39 Juerd heh.
07:39 sdtr443w 1st -- type Rocko and realize all variants of it are in use.  Then run your left fist all over the left side of the keyboard, and hit enter.
07:39 sdtr443w And then you get an enigmatic handle that everybody talks about.
07:40 Juerd The s, d, t, r and w are all on the right side of good keyboards.
07:40 sdtr443w Oh God here we go with the Dvorak
07:40 Juerd I'm not God though
07:41 Juerd I don't think God is particularly interested in Perl 6 development
07:41 sdtr443w If you can get PUGs working for me, I'll worship you like one.
07:41 Juerd As it'll eventually cause His unemployment
07:41 Juerd :)
07:41 theorbtwo Well, I'm a god, and I am.
07:42 Juerd theorbtwo: Which one?
07:42 gaal s.*, when you started make, did you get a message about readline not being found?
07:42 sdtr443w This installer certainly treats readline like it's mandatory.  I do have it installed anyhow.
07:42 sdtr443w lemme see
07:43 Juerd theorbtwo: One of those deprecated Roman gods, or the all new and shiny ucfirst God?
07:43 * theorbtwo is a perlmonks god of the semiactive sort.
07:43 sdtr443w Well when I run it now I don't see a warning about it missing until the linker keels over.
07:44 * Juerd sacrifices a piece of toblerone to theorbtwo
07:44 sdtr443w I've had to run make a few times and I don't have the first run anymore, if they did anything.
07:44 theorbtwo tell sdtr443w about pastebot
07:44 theorbtwo pastebot?
07:44 Juerd pasteling?
07:44 Juerd Or just use http://tnx.nl/scribble/
07:44 theorbtwo perlbot, tell sdtr443w about pastebot
07:44 theorbtwo perlbot, nopaste?
07:44 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
07:45 theorbtwo Ahh, there it is.
07:45 theorbtwo Anyway, now that we've introduced you to about ten million different services, use any of them to show us what you see when you do a make.
07:46 Juerd bot/<channel>
07:46 gaal s.*, the readline note comes only during configuration, ie at the first make after a make clean.
07:46 Juerd argh.
07:46 gaal brb
07:46 Juerd DRAG AND DROP COPY AND PASTE? WHO THE HELL INVENTED THIS MADNESS?
07:46 theorbtwo Microsoft, I think.
07:47 Juerd Apple, but close
07:47 jabbot pugs - 1299 - A possible Perldoc implementation strate
07:47 Juerd But in a terminal
07:47 Juerd Rather inconvenient.
07:47 q[acme] i wish jabbot would give a few more characters
07:48 Juerd q[acme]: gy
07:48 sdtr443w OK I have a save of the original run when I configured it
07:48 brentdax Does pugs just operate at :u0, or does it have some sort of Unicode support?
07:48 sdtr443w It claims it can't find libreadline.so.4: No such file or directory.  That's interesting.
07:48 Juerd q[acme]: :)
07:48 sdtr443w Do you want a paste still?
07:48 sdtr443w I did a locate and I see it in /lib
07:48 Juerd brentdax: IIRC, everything's unicodeish
07:48 Juerd brentdax: With no level specification
07:49 Juerd u4 that is iirc
07:49 Juerd But these *numbers* are terrible to remember.
07:49 brentdax Hmm, okay, guess I'll leave it stubbed ot...
07:49 sdtr443w But that must be GHC's problem
07:49 theorbtwo Hmm...
07:49 * brentdax is working on porting URI::Escape.
07:49 theorbtwo perlbot, seen autrijus
07:49 jabbot theorbtwo: autrijus was seen on Tue Mar 29 03:00:41 2005
07:49 theorbtwo jabbot, what timezone?
07:49 jabbot theorbtwo: Have you asked such questions before?
07:50 Juerd brentdax: I still think all encoding/escaping should be abstracted and unified
07:50 obra autrijus is on a train
07:50 theorbtwo perlbot, seen theorbtwo
07:50 jabbot theorbtwo: theorbtwo was seen on Tue Mar 29 15:49:52 2005
07:50 sdtr443w Oh God scratch that.  That was from my original botched attempt before installing GHC.  Afterwards, I don't see any mention of readline
07:50 hcchien obra: on a plane. :)
07:50 sdtr443w I think I need a nap
07:50 obra hcchien: oh!
07:51 theorbtwo Aaah.  Know when he'll be on-channel again?
07:51 * Juerd hands sdtr443w a nap
07:52 sdtr443w Yeah I'm going to put this off until tomorrow.
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07:53 brentdax Wow, I'm slightly less than clever.  It's already been ported, although it's a straight port, not an idiomatic one.
07:53 hcchien theorbtwo: more 1.5hrs, I guess.
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07:55 theorbtwo Hmm.  I want to hack on the parser a bit under his tootlage, but if I stay up another hour and a half, I'll be too asleep to do so.
07:55 clkao seen autrijus
07:55 jabbot clkao: autrijus was seen on Tue Mar 29 03:00:41 2005
07:55 obra clkao: when should I pull to test that your fix fixes it all?
07:56 obra er. mischan
07:56 theorbtwo That's GMT+7, BTW.
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08:03 scw +0800, infact
08:04 * nothingmuch has a go at prototyping that GC stuff
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08:28 gaal hey, vim users, add stuff to util/perl6.vim - i
08:28 gaal ''ve been doing it as i go along
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08:33 kungfuftr morning all
08:37 jabbot pugs - 1300 - add some more builtin types
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08:57 jabbot pugs - 1302 -
08:57 jabbot pugs - 1301 - Fixing perl6.vim: 0o123 and :key<val>
08:58 gaal please put messages on your svn ci's :)
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09:05 scw That one is generated by svk and contains no changes..
09:05 scw (except svk:merge property..)
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09:30 kungfuftr changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | FBSD_4.11:r1302(183/3383) win2k:r1284(118/3242) Linux:r1197(105/3116) MacOSX:r1197(105/3116)
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09:51 brentdax Can Pugs built-ins be implemented in Perl?
09:51 nothingmuch not all
09:51 nothingmuch or do you mean perl6?
09:51 nothingmuch in that case not yet, perhaps
09:51 brentdax Yeah, Perl 6.
09:51 nothingmuch there is one boundry that's hard to cross
09:51 nothingmuch system calls
09:51 nothingmuch that has to be builtin, as some kind of interface
09:52 brentdax I'd like to write part (which I backported to Perl 5), but I don't know Haskell.
09:52 nothingmuch anything else is MMD dispatched
09:52 nothingmuch the builtins are pretty simple, actually
09:52 nothingmuch could you list a few? I might be able to help you start
09:53 nothingmuch they are mostly wrappers for haskell functions
09:53 nothingmuch except that they do a little castin
09:53 nothingmuch g
09:53 nothingmuch as for writing them in p6: we don't really have all the stuff in pugs yet
09:53 * brentdax nods.
09:53 nothingmuch but when perl 6 will be written in perl 6, it's only logical that they are implemented as perl 6
09:53 brentdax Could probably be done by having a sort of default 'use', though..
09:53 nothingmuch :w
09:53 nothingmuch oops, wrong window
09:54 brentdax vi user?
09:54 nothingmuch yeah, but we don't have many required facilities
09:54 * nothingmuch confesses
09:54 nothingmuch no BEGIN { }, no type based MMD lookups
09:54 nothingmuch from specific to generic
09:55 nothingmuch no objects to represent many builtins (fhs)
09:55 nothingmuch (or arrays, hashes, etc, for that matter)
09:56 brentdax Can you construct an anonymous array, take and execute a coderef, and perform a for() loop?
09:57 nothingmuch you mean, implement map, etc?
09:57 nothingmuch i think that should be possible technically
09:57 brentdax Yes.  part is not much different from map.
09:57 brentdax http://search.cpan.org/src/BRENTDAX/List-Part-0.03/Part.pm --My Perl 5 version
09:57 nothingmuch good module, i use it occasionally
09:57 nothingmuch since for basically takes pointy subs
09:57 nothingmuch i wonder if gather/take could be streched to make them be able to do part
09:58 nothingmuch brentdax++
09:58 * nothingmuch doesn't need it that often though
09:58 nothingmuch if i go that far I usually need set operations, or nothing at all
09:58 brentdax Neither do I, but when I need it, there's nothing better.
09:58 nothingmuch you could write a test
09:59 nothingmuch that tries to see if for can take code refs
09:59 nothingmuch brb
09:59 brentdax k
10:03 nothingmuch ok, back
10:03 nothingmuch but it's lunch time
10:03 nothingmuch do you have commit access?
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10:03 nothingmuch hola lightstep
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10:03 nothingmuch i'm prototyping various GC schemes, would you like to see later?
10:04 nothingmuch i'm starting to think GC zones actually do make sense
10:04 brentdax Me?  Not on Pugs, I've not done anything to it yet.
10:04 brentdax (I assume autovivification is a pipe dream at this point?)
10:05 lightstep yes
10:05 lightstep but how can you implement gc in a gc'ed interpreter?
10:05 nothingmuch lightstep: an object called 'memory'
10:05 nothingmuch which is really a set of objects
10:05 lightstep oh
10:05 nothingmuch and an object called 'memory object'
10:05 marcusT has joined #perl6
10:05 nothingmuch and some event generation
10:05 ihb has joined #perl6
10:06 lightstep but in an interpreter, memory blocks in the object language are usually memory blocks in the meta language?
10:06 nothingmuch (object has ref taken of it, object is released, object refers other, object removes reference to other)
10:06 lightstep (like pugs works now)
10:06 nothingmuch i don't understand the terms
10:06 autrijus good morning folks.
10:06 nothingmuch (object is born)
10:06 obra hi autrijus
10:06 nothingmuch hola autrijus
10:06 nothingmuch ack, i can't find my lunch slips
10:06 lightstep object language = pugs, meta language = haskell
10:07 nothingmuch ah
10:07 autrijus "host language" too.
10:07 nothingmuch i'm doing it in p5
10:07 jabbot pugs - 1303 - More playing with the DOM
10:07 nothingmuch and either way, it doesn't really matter
10:07 lightstep the memory of the unref'ed objects won't be freed anyway until haskell gets to it
10:07 lightstep oh
10:07 nothingmuch since deletion is just moving the 'object' object to the 'deleted' space
10:07 nothingmuch ah
10:08 nothingmuch ok
10:08 nothingmuch well, again, if it were freed i couldn't check that freeing was correct
10:08 nothingmuch i plan to use full mark & sweep as the reference GC
10:08 nothingmuch =)
10:08 nothingmuch brentdax: can i have your email please?
10:08 lightstep you can also create a noop gc module to test the prototype
10:08 brentdax [email@hidden.address]
10:09 nothingmuch autrijus's rule is that you have to comit tests first, though
10:09 nothingmuch so do the for/cref thing
10:09 nothingmuch and then try to hack it so it works
10:09 nothingmuch or, test for 'part'
10:09 nothingmuch and try to implement it in p6, and then in haskell
10:09 nothingmuch invitation sent
10:11 brentdax I assume the Chinese(?) legalese doesn't require me to give them my first-born child or something.
10:12 rgs no, only the second one
10:12 brentdax Oh, okay.  My family has a history of...interesting middle children anyway.
10:13 autrijus # http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html
10:13 autrijus sf.net boilerplate
10:14 brentdax Thanks.
10:18 brentdax I guess I can just port over the List::Part tests...
10:18 autrijus yup.
10:19 obra changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | FBSD_4.11:r1302(183/3383) win2k:r1284(118/3242) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1197(105/3116)
10:21 brentdax We don't have is_deeply, do we?
10:21 autrijus we don't but you can trivially implement it by comparing .perl
10:21 brentdax Ah, cute...
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10:46 ihb perhaps a stupid question, but why are modules being ported to Perl 6? aren't you supposed to be able to use Perl 5 modules in Perl 6? (i can see some reasons, but i'd much rather have a good answer :-))
10:46 obra ihb: eventually, sure. but there's no machine translation framework.
10:46 obra it's currently possible to do some things using an embedded perl5 interpreter.
10:47 kungfuftr autrijus: DBI::PurePerl has way too many Perl5 idiosyncraticies
10:47 jabbot pugs - 1304 - test syntax about @=DATA etc.
10:47 obra kungfuftr: that's a pity
10:49 kungfuftr yup, is a pain
10:49 fayland_ jabbot: ya,it's from me. I think maybe I should add the "todo_fail("FIXME parsefail");"
10:49 jabbot fayland_: That's quite interesting.
10:49 fayland_ jabbot: it runs wrong on my OS
10:49 jabbot fayland_: Your OS?
10:50 fayland_ jabbot: yes. can u test it?
10:50 jabbot fayland_: Why don't you tell me a little more about this.
10:50 obra jabot++ # passes the turing test
10:51 * gugod be proud
10:51 * obra grins at gugod
10:52 fayland_ jabbot: did u test it?
10:52 jabbot fayland_: That is interesting. Please continue.
10:52 gugod fayland_: jabbot is a real robot, fyi
10:52 fayland_ o
10:52 fayland_ god save me
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11:17 jabbot pugs - 1307 - * cleanup on AUTHORS and ChangeLog
11:17 jabbot pugs - 1306 - * support for variables in ~~ RHS
11:17 jabbot pugs - 1305 - fix a small test file from me.
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11:27 jabbot pugs - 1308 - something new about POD Data object to P
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11:28 Jonathan Hmmm....is build broken (on Win32) for anyone else?
11:29 Jonathan Fails for me at Spec.pm line 1, saying that Perl 6 is required.
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11:47 hlafarge hi everybody - i'm getting an 'impossible' error from GHC when compiling Main.hs on debian (GHC 6.4), any clue ?
11:49 pjcj works fine for me - debian testing, self compiled ghc-6.4
11:51 autrijus hlafarge: try check out again
11:51 autrijus Jonathan: oh? hrm
11:51 hlafarge pjcj: the exact error message is: ghc-6.4: panic! (the `impossible' happened, GHC version 6.4): \nMaybe.fromJust: Nothing
11:51 autrijus Jonathan: check for your perl5 File::Spec
11:51 autrijus perl -MFile::Spec
11:51 autrijus see if it's overwritten
11:51 autrijus hlafarge: yeah, I ran into that yesterday
11:51 autrijus a fresh checkout worked
11:51 hlafarge autrijus: you mean get rid of my old checkout and get a new one ?
11:51 autrijus hlafarge: just
11:51 autrijus rm -rf * ; svn up
11:52 autrijus or "svk revert -R ."
11:52 hlafarge autrijus: thanks, trying that right now ...
11:58 hlafarge autrijus: wonderful, it works, thanks!
11:58 autrijus :)
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11:59 * nothingmuch is having trouble conceptualizing
11:59 marcusT has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
11:59 nothingmuch without increasing usage complexity
11:59 nothingmuch i hate this dilema
12:01 hlafarge autrijus: btw, is the mirror at http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs still supposed to be kept up to date ?
12:01 hlafarge autrijus: i'm mirroring that via svk and got no updates for a few days
12:02 autrijus er, the syncer dies, sorry.
12:02 autrijus restarted.
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12:04 * nothingmuch hates sysadmins who think their job is more important than the jobs of the users they support
12:04 hlafarge autrijus: made my day ;-) you're my hero (already were anyway) autrijus++
12:05 autrijus :)
12:05 nothingmuch hlafarge: you can just use http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
12:05 autrijus nothingmuch: sysadmins usually hate back :)
12:05 * nothingmuch hates even more so, hacking into the US sites boxes because the sysadmin is sleeping and I need something done
12:05 nothingmuch i don't hate him
12:05 nothingmuch i hate his process
12:05 nothingmuch he's soooo stubborn
12:06 nothingmuch there's a firewall zone for nearly every machine over there
12:06 hlafarge nothingmuch: that's what i'm using with subversion, but i also had an svk mirror, just in case ;-)
12:06 nothingmuch so each time someone wants to copy a file i have to say 'ah, you have to pull, you can't push because Aaron is too paranoid'
12:06 autrijus bbiab :)
12:06 nothingmuch the reason i'm in ruining his security policy in the first place is that he placed some stupid cap on the mail message sizes
12:06 nothingmuch so i couldn't send 30MB by email
12:07 jabbot pugs - 1309 - * rename IMCC to IMC
12:08 pjcj How do people mail word docs and excel files containing screen captures?!
12:08 obra heh
12:09 nothingmuch pjcj: are you asking how in the techincal sense, or the "dear god" sense?
12:09 pjcj the latter, unfortunately
12:10 nothingmuch oh crap
12:10 nothingmuch now i have to play with his LVM settings
12:10 osfameron Annoyingly, it seems to be the easiest way to mail a screen capture from windows
12:11 nothingmuch can't you just paste it into outlook/thunderbird?
12:12 osfameron Don't think you can paste any attachments into thunderbird.
12:12 osfameron Can't remember re outlook, think no though.
12:12 nothingmuch oh well
12:12 * nothingmuch uses mutt or apple mail
12:12 nothingmuch i expect that behavior from the latter
12:13 nothingmuch and normally enjoy the lack of it in the former
12:14 osfameron http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2005/03/28.html  has a comment on user-friendliness of print-screen
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12:30 shapr This place is growing fast.
12:31 autrijus verily.
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12:34 Odin- Ya figure?
12:34 shapr I reckon
12:34 shapr Is that close enough?
12:36 autrijus :)
12:37 autrijus bbiab.
12:37 * autrijus needs to write PA02 in a couple days.
12:38 Odin- What'll that be about?
12:38 autrijus technical architecture
12:38 autrijus "how to start hacking pugs"
12:38 Odin- Ah. :p
12:39 autrijus explaining key concepts etc.
12:39 autrijus &
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12:47 jabbot pugs - 1310 - * Add a couple of common keywords
12:47 * rgs continued to hack perl6.vim
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12:51 Jonathan Seems that the build process is choosing to use the copy of File::Spec in the Pugs blib folder rather than the one installed with Perl itself.
12:52 Jonathan Perl 5, that is.
12:53 rgs that's probably the Right Thing.
12:54 rgs :q
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12:54 rgs unless you're speaking of the p6 port of File::Spec of course
12:54 Jonathan Not really; that version of File::Spec requires Perl 6 which, until you've built pugs, you don't have.
12:54 Jonathan Yeah, that's right.
12:54 rgs but it should go in blib6 then
12:56 * rgs doesn't see a File::Spec in blib*
12:58 Jonathan I have the latest version, have done a make clean, run make and end up with a module starting "use v6;" in blib\lib\File.
12:58 rgs \ ? you're on windows ?
12:58 Jonathan Yes.
12:59 rgs maybe a platform specific bug then. trying to reproduce.
13:00 kungfuftr the IMC renaming seems to have broken building
13:01 * kungfuftr has a peek
13:02 rgs that's right
13:02 Jonathan It does "cp lib/File/Spec.pm F:\Hacking\Pugs\blib\lib\File/Spec.pm"
13:02 rgs here (on linux) it goes to blib6/lib/File/Spec.pm
13:02 rgs which is right.
13:03 kungfuftr anyone know when stevan usually gets onto irc?
13:03 nothingmuch his afternoon to evening
13:03 kungfuftr TZ?
13:05 shapr stupid question, can I create new operators with limited semantics in Perl? Is there some way to generate always correct SQL from made-up database operators in Perl?
13:05 nothingmuch shapr: you could use the given operators, and overload them, in p5
13:06 nothingmuch or declare sub infix:<xxx> in p6
13:06 nothingmuch see s13
13:06 shapr and then it's an infix op?
13:06 pasteling "Jonathan" at 82.133.67.25 pasted "My build problem" (62 lines, 3.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8714
13:06 nothingmuch uhuh
13:06 shapr nifty, thanks.
13:06 Jonathan That's what I see on build.
13:06 nothingmuch you can also to declare precedence
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13:07 metaperl I pointed shapr to Rosetta
13:07 metaperl and all the SQL generators such as Class::DBI, Rose::DB, etc
13:07 nothingmuch Jonathan: looks like the manifest for File::Spec is broken
13:07 nothingmuch can you paste whatever was before that?
13:08 Jonathan I just have the running of Makefile.PL
13:08 nothingmuch i'd like to see it all... 'perl Makefile.PL; make'
13:08 Jonathan I do get "Warning: prerequisite ExtUtils::MakeMaker 6.15 not found. We have 6.03."
13:08 nothingmuch ah
13:08 kungfuftr hhhmmm... distclean and make seems to have worked
13:08 Jonathan Is that going to be it?
13:09 nothingmuch that's one good reason for it to fail
13:09 Jonathan Argh.
13:09 nothingmuch 6.03 is from before i was born, i think
13:09 Jonathan ActiveState's ppm happily doesn't have anything later than 6.03. :S
13:09 nothingmuch yup
13:09 nothingmuch perlwise i was born around 2002
13:10 nothingmuch shortly before 6.05
13:10 nothingmuch ;-)
13:10 kungfuftr Jonathan: should be able to install directly from cpan instead of ppm
13:11 nothingmuch booyakasha
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13:18 Jonathan Righty, that upgrade rids me of the warning.
13:19 pasteling "Jonathan" at 82.133.67.25 pasted "Now I get this..." (21 lines, 717B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8717
13:27 hcchien should I add the test for multidimensional array? or it exists already? # didn't see it.
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13:31 kungfuftr hcchien: t/data_types/multi_dimensional_array.t ?
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13:32 Thomas_Yeh hi Autrijus
13:34 mugwump he's sleeping
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13:36 Thomas_Yeh mugwump: can you tell him to reply mail to danielnee of s-team, thanks
13:38 Limbic_Region Does anyone know if p6 is supposed to allow this?  http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=443062
13:38 Limbic_Region pdcawley used to do the weekly p6 summaries so I would have guessed he would know what he is talking about
13:38 Limbic_Region though in a follow up he didn't sound so sure
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13:41 hcchien kungfuftr: oh, thanks. but it doesn't include the data type declare, like my num @nums is shape(2,4)?
13:47 kungfuftr hcchien: add to that test then i'd reckons
13:48 hcchien kungfuftr:ok, I will do.
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13:57 jabbot pugs - 1311 - Require a version of Test::More that kno
13:58 chip kungfuftr: seeking me?
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14:03 * Limbic_Region was looking for a snack, but he really isn't fond of chips
14:03 shapr Too bad, I have several chips on my shoulder.
14:04 kungfuftr chip: yar, 2 secs
14:04 Limbic_Region I'm glad to see you are using a use.perl journal chip - will be nice to see how all this Pugs development spills over into Parrot - thanks for putting on the hat
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14:04 chip Limbic_Region: thanks ... I'm pondering my own sanity, but I couldn't resist
14:05 Limbic_Region getting Leo involved in IRC will be a huge boost I think
14:05 chip My first issue is figuring out a basic architectural question of big register set vs. continuations.  It's ... fun
14:05 Limbic_Region the man is phenominal, but he works vaccuously too much IMO
14:05 * shapr cheers for continuations
14:07 kungfuftr chip: my housemate has been looking for stuff to hack on in parrot, are there certain areas he should look towards?
14:07 jabbot pugs - 1312 - More MetaClass musings...
14:07 Limbic_Region I know Sam Ruby was getting just a tad bit frustrated and without our fearless leader (Dan was MIA at the time) no resolution was made
14:09 * Limbic_Region volunteered to forward links to autrijus for any Pugs related questions that arose at the Monastery/use.perl - I can do the same for Parrot if you want chip
14:13 chip kungfuftr: I'm not the guy to ask that question.  Leo is (among his other other roles) the traffic cop, and he's been occasionally posting to p6i with tasks in search of volunteers
14:15 chip Limbic_Region: Yes, please, that'd be fine; I like much of the Monastery, but there are only so many minutes in a day
14:19 Limbic_Region ok - you prefer email or /msg here in IRC?
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14:22 Limbic_Region chip - to give you an idea of the volume, there have been 4 specific related posts at the Monastery in the last month and a half
14:23 Limbic_Region interestingly enough, one of them is titled "Parrot on a chip"
14:26 chip bwa
14:26 chip bwaha
14:27 chip msg on irc is fine ... my screen session sees all
14:27 chip thanks
14:29 Limbic_Region shame on you chip - your away message is triple x-rated
14:30 kungfuftr chip: thanks
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15:05 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | FBSD_4.11:r1302(183/3383) win2k:r1312(185/3383) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1197(105/3116)
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15:13 elmex hi
15:13 Limbic_Region lo
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15:21 Corion la
15:21 Corion ter
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15:50 PerlJam is now known as PerlPilot
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15:54 nothingmuch if anyone wants to see reference impls of ref counting and copy sweeping garbage collection: darcs get http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/gc
15:54 nothingmuch i'm working on zoned GC
15:54 nothingmuch and then I will script usage of a memory structure
15:54 nothingmuch and then i will benchmark
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16:18 theorbtwo Does anybody know if the hackathon around YAPC::NA is going to be before or after?
16:21 theorbtwo Apparently not, sigh.
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16:46 gaal_ to2, i recall autrijus said before, but search these logs to make sure.
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17:10 Corion Did anyone actually hack on %*CONFIG ? I only see mention of it by integral, gaal and me, and nobody mentioned it's been done...
17:10 Corion (I'd "simply" expose the FMHash (or whatever it is) in Config.hs to the Perl side of life)
17:11 Corion ... and all of that just to get -V:foo_bar to work :)
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17:37 jabbot pugs - 1313 - TODO test for %*CONFIG hash (tentative)
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17:44 integral Corion: I've got half the code done
17:44 integral Also autrijus suggested that it should be %?CONFIG
17:44 integral the issue I'm working on is that the FiniteMap in Config.hs uses Haskell rather than perl types
17:44 Corion integral: Oooo - even cooler! I'm currently wondering about why %*ENV works and %*CONFIG doesn't compile (Haskell side)
17:45 Corion integral: Aaah - maybe that's my problem too :-) Well - I'll change my tests to use %?CONFIG then :-)
17:45 integral there's no actual patches on svn yet
17:46 Corion integral: ... except my patches - I accidentially also committed my Run.hs which has a stub hash for %*CONFIG :-)
17:46 integral ah
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17:46 Corion integral: But filling that hash with life is what doesn't work for me currently :)
17:47 integral I'll send my patch to the Config.hs stuff
17:47 Corion I'm undoing my Run.hs patch (resp. comment it out)
17:57 jabbot pugs - 1316 - TODO test for pugs -V:foo
17:57 jabbot pugs - 1315 - Add pugs_versnum, pugs_version, and pugs
17:57 jabbot pugs - 1314 - Rename %*CONFIG to %?CONFIG
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18:17 jabbot pugs - 1317 - Added tests for unpacking array paramete
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18:25 integral *sigh* ghc eats so much ram :-/
18:43 Corion Heh - I think I tricked Haskell into exporting %?CONFIG :-)
18:48 Corion Heh - I think I tricked Haskell into exporting %?CONFIG :-)
18:48 Corion Ooops - sorry :)
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18:49 Corion hi nothingmuch :)
18:50 nothingmuch evening
18:50 nothingmuch hola Corion
18:50 Corion integral: ping ?
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18:57 * shapr sings cheerfully
18:57 shapr I'm so happy there are inspirational projects in the world like pugs!
18:57 jabbot pugs - 1318 - First draft of a 'working' %?CONFIG
18:57 shapr see! jabbot thinks so too!
18:59 integral Corion: pong
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18:59 Corion integral: I just fudged in my version of %?CONFIG (but I think I broke something) - are you still working on %?CONFIG ?
19:00 integral yep, I'm still fiddling
19:00 Corion integral: I hope your solution will be better than my fudging :)
19:00 integral it's probably not :-)
19:00 * integral looks
19:00 Corion integral: I use     let confFM = listToFM $ [ (k, VStr v) | (k, v) <- fmToList config ]
19:01 integral ah, that's what I'm using but with a map rather than a comp.
19:01 Corion ... but I didn't test before committing, so I broke the build :(
19:01 Corion Gaah - and another stupid thing committed before testing it :(
19:02 Corion ... I should set me up a local repository and only commit when I've tested it all locally :(
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19:04 integral ./pugs -e'say "This is the %?CONFIG<pugs_version>"' # now works
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19:07 jabbot pugs - 1320 - Fixed all my stupid not-test-before-comm
19:07 jabbot pugs - 1319 - I should test before commit :(
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19:08 Corion integral: Heh - I'm just hacking in -V:pugs_version :)
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19:09 Corion integral: What implementation did you use / is it similar to what I did ?
19:09 integral It's exactly what you did
19:10 Corion Yay. pugs -V:foo now works, at least for known foo :-))
19:10 integral I just used map with (\(k,v)->(k,vStr v))
19:10 Corion Ooops - except that I get path_sep: path_sep - which means I left out a FM lookup somewhere :-(
19:12 gaal hey integral, Corion
19:12 Corion integral: I went that way because the line above looks exactly the same :)
19:12 Corion gaal!
19:12 integral hmm, should revision be "r123" or just "123"?
19:12 nothingmuch hola gaal
19:12 gaal sup? hey, cool, %CONFIG :)
19:12 gaal hey there
19:12 nothingmuch integral: IMHO just 123
19:12 * integral hacks
19:12 nothingmuch that's easier to pass around to svn
19:12 Corion gaal: Close... My -V:foo stuff is broken, but otherwise it seems to work ;)
19:13 * gaal svn ups
19:14 Corion d'oh - reversing the parameters to lookupWithDefaultFM is stupid :)
19:14 gaal wow, we have lots of tests
19:14 gaal Corion, you know about the accessor, yes?
19:14 gaal Config.getConfig
19:14 Corion gaal: That one doesn't help me.
19:14 gaal because it defaults to ""
19:14 gaal oh
19:14 gaal too bad :)
19:15 nothingmuch is there a safe/efficient way to climb up two branches of a tree
19:15 nothingmuch and find their parent?
19:15 Corion gaal: It only looks up one value. And I want to use the same variable that is used for %?CONFIG :)
19:15 gaal wow, we have hella lots of tests.
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19:15 nothingmuch lowest common parent
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19:15 gaal does each node know its depth from the root, nm?
19:16 nothingmuch no
19:16 gaal then i don't know :)
19:16 nothingmuch otherwise i'd just level, and then climb a step at a time
19:16 gaal true.
19:16 gaal i only have answers to the easy questions. that's why i want to make everythign easy.
19:16 nothingmuch i'm guessing I could climb all the way up, stack parents
19:16 integral I remember seeing something like that in the type code,  iirc it just turned each node into it's path (top -> grandparent -> parent -> node), and pulled out the common prefix
19:17 nothingmuch and then pop, till there's a split
19:17 Corion Ah - a Perl6 question - should @array = ([1], [2,3]) work like in Perl5 or should it flatten ?
19:17 nothingmuch the reason I want to avoid that is that i"m reeeaaaalllly afraid of latency
19:17 gaal oh, no doubt there's a way to get the haskell or ocaml compilers to produce an error message that expresses a solution to this problem :)
19:18 Corion (because Pugs flattens, and I'm not sure if that's a bug :) )
19:18 nothingmuch i think that's a bug
19:18 gaal i don't know, Corion, but I'd guess like p5.
19:18 nothingmuch but it could be that what you really mean is '@array = (1; 2, 3)
19:18 gaal what do the tests say?
19:18 Corion nothingmuch: Would that create an array of two arrays ?
19:18 nothingmuch yup
19:19 nothingmuch in theory
19:19 nothingmuch i'm not sure it's implemented
19:19 Corion nothingmuch: Then I think I want that :)
19:19 nothingmuch i think i want @array = ([1], [2, 3])
19:20 nothingmuch because otherwise there's no real way to say @array = ($aref, $aref2);
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19:20 kungfuftr autrijus: yullo?
19:20 * nothingmuch considers balanced zoning, a la btrees
19:20 nothingmuch makes things simpler
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19:21 nothingmuch but also more complicated
19:21 Corion What should become the equivalent to perl -V:unknown_option ? In Perl5 it is 'UNKNOWN'.
19:21 saorge` has joined #perl6
19:22 nothingmuch i think unknown_option=undef;
19:22 nothingmuch that means false in p5 %CONFIG
19:22 gaal why not raise an exception on that kind of thing?
19:22 nothingmuch but i don't think that's a good thing
19:23 nothingmuch perl -Mfatal -V:unknown_option
19:24 Corion nothingmuch: It must return a string to the command line (I'm talking about -V: , not about the internal value, which will be undef IMO)
19:25 gaal if i'm doing low level io, and have a binary buffer, how do i substr off it w/o unicode semantics? i know there was some debate but has there been a bottom line?
19:25 gaal in that case, UNKNOWN makes better sense than an empty string
19:25 nothingmuch sh compatible?
19:25 nothingmuch i think you want 'my str $buffer'
19:26 gaal though stderr or some nonzero exit code might  be better
19:26 gaal thanks, nm
19:27 jabbot pugs - 1322 - -V:foo works for known values of foo
19:27 jabbot pugs - 1321 - Change %?CONFIG{pugs_revision} to be jus
19:27 gaal can i cast a probably unicode string onto that buffer?
19:27 gaal my str $nonuni = "this contains unicode chars"?
19:29 Corion Currently the output will be "\tfoo: \n" - ugly but "good enough" so far
19:29 gaal that's like giving an empty string, Corion, if for other values you return "\tMoose: elk\n"
19:30 Corion gaal: Yep. Not ideal, but good enough for a first try I think
19:31 gaal sure, but i'd still prefer UNKNOWN :)
19:33 Corion gaal: No problem - I'll put that in and it'll go in with the next commit :)
19:33 Corion That way, it'll stick out in generated shell scripts or makefiles, true!
19:34 gaal and there'll be a way to differentiate it between values that really are "".
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19:36 Corion Hmmm. As a side effect, "pugs -V foo"  works too. Is that good or bad ?
19:37 jabbot pugs - 1323 - Unknown -V: options output the empty str
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19:45 gaal my Code $callback = smth. how do i invoke $callback?  $callback.(args)? $callback.call(args)?
19:45 kungfuftr gaal: $callback() ?
19:46 gaal i don't know, couldn'
19:46 gaal t find it in the Syns.
19:46 kungfuftr callback is just an anonymous closure, aye?
19:46 gaal yes
19:46 kungfuftr yeah... it's $callback()
19:47 gaal $x.() makes sense to me, because in p5 i was a fan of $x->()
19:47 gaal thanks, kungfuftr!
19:50 kungfuftr gaal: hhhmmm.. it's not specific, but see about currying in S06
19:51 dada has quit IRC ("stand like you're made of stone")
19:52 kungfuftr gaal: ah ha! it's in S04 within "Relationship of blocks and declarations
19:53 gaal thanks again :)
19:54 kungfuftr np
20:01 * kungfuftr has a crazy idea for pugs/perl6 in general
20:03 gaal we're listening :)
20:03 kungfuftr soz, coffee called
20:04 kungfuftr translating "Learning Perl" directly into the perl 6 equivalent (ie: Learning Perl 6)
20:05 gaal we certainly want docs and books, but you know, learning perl isn't in the public domain :)
20:06 kungfuftr this is true, but oreilly might be up for it, especially since it's a format they already know and somewhat guarantees they'd be the first publisher to have a book
20:06 gaal what about the author?
20:07 kungfuftr i believe that the publisher gets nist if the rights
20:07 gaal i mean, we can certainly start writing docs and tutorials
20:07 Lopo has joined #perl6
20:07 gaal manpages
20:07 gaal and you're free to write a book if you like
20:07 kungfuftr heh
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20:24 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | FBSD_4.11:r1302(183/3383) win2k:r1324(187/3474) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1197(105/3116)
20:24 Corion Hmmm. OSX is falling behind :)
20:24 Corion Should I promote the tests in unspecced/config.t from todo_is() to is() ?
20:25 gaal if they pass :)
20:26 Corion gaal: They pass, but it's uncharted country :)
20:27 gaal that's why it's in unspecced...
20:27 jabbot pugs - 1324 - -V: 'works now'
20:27 Corion gaal: OK - I'll promote them then :)
20:29 * Corion is amazed how far he gets with cargo-culting stuff
20:31 Corion ... and I think I just had an idea how I can make the config parser work better and still keep the pattern matching of Haskell...
20:31 gaal yay!
20:33 Corion gaal: I think I'll first expand all clustering options (-dwl0e) and then regroup the stuff into nested arrays again, so I have [ [ "-e", fragment ], [ "-e", fragment2 ], ... ] which I can then sort with ease.
20:33 Corion This will also make the -V: parsing less convoluted.
20:33 Corion And all of this, just to get to -p and -n ...
20:34 gaal Corion pwns
20:34 Corion gaal: No - I'm just efficient at spotting stuff I copy-and-paste and where I then change a symbol to the symbol I need :)
20:35 theorbtwo BTW, Corion: -I path/name/ does wierd things, last I looked.
20:35 Corion theorbtwo: It's -I/path/name (no space)
20:35 Corion theorbtwo: Err -Ipath/name (still no space)
20:35 Corion theorbtwo: But a test case would be welcome ...
20:36 Corion theorbtwo: Aaah - I think I should handle -I (nothing) as an error, then
20:37 Corion Oh. Perl5 allows -I path/to/dir . So I should better allow that too. Feh. I hoped I could delay the move to my new schema. :(
20:37 Corion First, let's add a (failing) test case :)
20:37 gaal tdd++
20:37 gaal say, does @_ include the invocant in method calls?
20:38 gaal (i suppose so...)
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20:57 jabbot pugs - 1326 - -I path/to/dir does not work
20:57 jabbot pugs - 1325 - Promoted t/unspecced/config.t from todo_
20:57 kungfuftr gaal: =0)
21:02 Corion Gah. These "Couldn't match `Char' against `String'" will be the death of me !
21:02 gaal [[[[death]]]]
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21:02 Corion gaal: Indeed :)
21:02 dvtoo has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:02 Corion But Haskell poetry has nothing on Perl poetry :)
21:03 gaal yeah!
21:05 gaal CATCH being inside the try takes getting used to.
21:05 Corion Hah! Adding a judicious :[] makes Haskell understand what I mean :)
21:06 Corion gaal: CATCH is inside try{} ? Ugh!
21:06 gaal it's consistent. just not with other languages. :)
21:07 Corion gaal: Its pattern matching takes some getting used to, yes - the last parameter always is a list. If you don't want that, specify a list after it :)
21:09 gaal :)
21:11 gaal in p5 /x-modified regexps, what's the idiomatic way to say "one space"? [ ] ? '\ ' ?
21:13 gaal e.g. /this is an example of an unhappy regex/x
21:13 Corion gaal: \s if you don't care, [ ] otherwise, I think.
21:14 gaal i'll definitely use m:w in this particular p6 rx, then.
21:14 gaal :)
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21:37 gaal does \0 mean NUL in a regexp like it did in p5?
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21:49 nothingm1ch has joined #perl6
21:52 nothingm1ch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status is now updated automatically
21:53 gaal nothinglikegoodolnicksmuch++
21:53 * nothingm1ch is on the other comp =).
21:54 nothingm1ch does vim know :TOhtml from the command line?
21:54 nothingm1ch preferably to STDOUT?
21:55 gaal yes, let me remember how
21:55 gaal pass it the -c arg
21:56 gaal don't remember if they chain. if so, vim -c :tohtml -c :q file
21:56 gaal if not, you'll need a function, i guess
21:57 gaal when i declare a method, is the first positional param always the invocant? or can i omit it if i don't nead it?
21:57 nothingm1ch i think if it's omitted it goes somewhere special
21:58 nothingm1ch i'm not sure where.
21:58 gaal well, there's the debate over .meth and $_.meth and o.meth etc,
21:58 PerlJam gaal: If you don't put a colon, then all of the required parameters are invocants.
21:58 gaal er
21:58 gaal no grok
21:59 nothingm1ch to get what you asked for: sub foo (: $x, $y, $z)
21:59 nothingm1ch invocant chucked
21:59 nothingm1ch without the colon, $x, $y, $z are invocants
21:59 nothingm1ch right, PerlJam?
21:59 gaal hmm
22:00 gaal that's not mentioned in t/Synopsis
22:00 gaal i think
22:01 gaal if i call my code like so somewhere in my class: $self.othermeth(1, 2)
22:01 gaal and my othermeth is declared 'method othermeth($x, $y) { ... }
22:01 gaal won't that silenty work?
22:01 PerlJam nothingm1ch: um ... no, and yes.
22:02 PerlJam method foo ($a,$b,$c)  { ... }  All of $a, $b, and $c are invocants.
22:02 PerlJam method foo ($a: $b,$c) { ... }  Only $a is an invocant
22:03 PerlJam or you can think of it as in the first case all of parameters participate in MMD determination, whereas in the second case, only the $a does.
22:03 gaal PerlJam: and if i'm not doing mmd, and dont' need a 'this' in the method, what syntax would you recommend?
22:04 PerlJam gaal: method foo ($a,$b,$c) { ... }
22:05 gaal good :)
22:05 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
22:06 nothingm1ch gaal: ideas for yaml harness:
22:07 nothingm1ch it appends a whole YAML doc per run
22:07 nothingm1ch to tests.yml
22:07 nothingm1ch with only the revision
22:07 nothingm1ch then you can run several tests at a time on SMP and you don't care
22:07 nothingm1ch xargs -P
22:07 nothingm1ch then we have pugs_info
22:08 nothingm1ch which generates the big platform/r/-V yml
22:08 nothingm1ch and smoke_report, which just posts the data to a webserver
22:08 nothingm1ch the webserver reads the yml, and merges it
22:08 nothingm1ch consolidation of results:
22:09 nothingm1ch disagreement causes yellow
22:09 nothingm1ch and onmouse over you see all reports
22:09 nothingm1ch as platform: ok
22:09 nothingm1ch .
22:09 nothingm1ch if there is agreement, then there is agreement and we don't care
22:10 nothingm1ch testgraph.pl will take in a slightly more complicated yml, of merged/sorted results
22:10 nothingm1ch and someone will take care of generating that yml for it,
22:10 nothingm1ch and that's it
22:10 nothingm1ch good enough?
22:12 gaal er, what manages contention against tests.yml?
22:12 nothingm1ch some merge and sort script
22:13 nothingm1ch either taking data in from sqlite, or from the ymls themselves
22:13 gaal no, on the client side
22:13 nothingm1ch ah
22:13 nothingm1ch uhm
22:13 gaal you can't just xargs -P and have everyone write to the same place
22:13 nothingm1ch yes you can, you write for a short time
22:13 gaal bleh :)
22:13 nothingm1ch YAML probably has a lock mode
22:14 nothingm1ch so it doesn't matter if locks block for a short while
22:14 gaal well, okay.
22:14 mj has left
22:14 gaal (sorry i'm slow, i'm also just ciing something)
22:14 nothingm1ch hmm, it doesn't
22:14 nothingm1ch well, maybe ingy is nice enough to add that ;-)
22:15 gaal i was just about to suggest that
22:15 nothingm1ch either way, you can just flock
22:15 gaal sure
22:15 gaal ok
22:15 nothingm1ch do what parts do you want to cover?
22:15 nothingm1ch what parts do you want to leave to me?
22:15 nothingm1ch and what should we spill on stevan?
22:15 gaal i can do everything on the client side no problem
22:16 nothingm1ch including http post?
22:16 gaal it's a fair organization
22:16 nothingm1ch we just have to agree on a URL
22:16 gaal sure, why not
22:16 nothingm1ch ok
22:16 nothingm1ch pugs.woobling.org/smoke
22:16 nothingm1ch it just uploads tests.yml, with normal cgi file upload wizardry
22:17 gaal yeah, that's easy enough.
22:17 Limbic_Region did autrijus forget to journal today?
22:17 gaal i think the man deserves some sleep :)
22:17 gaal you know, once a month
22:17 gaal they say it's healthy
22:18 gaal how do i un-svn-add a file?
22:18 nothingm1ch svn revert?
22:18 gaal (i didn't ci it yet)
22:18 nothingm1ch exactly
22:18 nothingm1ch svn revert tosses on ci'd changes
22:18 nothingm1ch i'm guessing
22:18 gaal yes, that workd. thanks :)
22:19 gaal worked
22:19 gaal i need sleep :)
22:19 * Limbic_Region wasn't complaining - just inquiring
22:19 Limbic_Region actually it was a concern for his lack of sleep that prompted the question -
22:19 gaal oh, i was kidding, mean :)
22:19 gaal man
22:19 gaal i can't type
22:20 Limbic_Region as in - is he still up and just hasn't yet
22:20 gaal esp when i'm asleep
22:20 Limbic_Region no worries
22:22 gaal ++ports; please review if you can. i'm off to bed
22:22 nothingm1ch ciao
22:23 kungfuftr gaal: merlyn++
22:23 gaal kff: ? merlyn++ indeed but why do you mention it?
22:24 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
22:24 kungfuftr gaal: llama book stuff
22:24 theorb has joined #perl6
22:25 gaal oh yes
22:25 gaal i didn't learn from it, but i taught with it :)
22:26 kungfuftr gaal: depending on confirmation with publisher... a companion guide fer perl6 is well possible... =0)
22:27 gaal i'm sure, but it sounds to me like it's merlyn's job to write merlyn's books (actually, tom phoenix coauthored ed. 3 iirc)
22:28 gaal anyway, i
22:28 gaal 'm outtahere. night!
22:28 kungfuftr yar, but that won't happen for a long while
22:28 * gaal &
22:28 theorb G'night, gaal.
22:30 nothingm1ch ciao gaal
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22:31 * nothingm1ch is not sure whether to leave the test reporting on his osx or linux box for now
22:32 theorb is now known as theorbtwo
22:33 theorbtwo Why not both?
22:34 theorbtwo (BTW, discovered the obvious the other day: diffing two test run yaml files produces rather readable results.)
22:35 nothingm1ch theorbtwo: because it isn't consolidated yet
22:35 nothingm1ch human readable data is very good
22:35 nothingm1ch lots of tools made to eat it over the years
22:35 nothingm1ch diff, less, wc, grep, awk, sed
22:36 theorbtwo Tools for eating human-readable data tend to be named with an initial capital...
22:36 nothingm1ch ?
22:36 theorbtwo James, Bob, Frank, Jess, Yuval, Autrijus...
22:36 nothingm1ch ah
22:37 nothingm1ch heh
22:37 jabbot pugs - 1328 - Comment out STDERR prints
22:37 jabbot pugs - 1327 - Perl6 port of Cache::Memcached
22:38 nothingm1ch theorbtwo: think you can handle pod->html escaping madness, and folding of <code> in the synopses?
22:38 crysflame memcache perl6?!
22:39 * crysflame cheers
22:39 nothingm1ch L<foo/"blah C<for> ding"> does not resolve
22:39 nothingm1ch folding of <code> should also be done for reexes
22:39 nothingm1ch but it's a bit tricky
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22:48 theorbtwo Nice use of the scalar ... operator.
22:51 * nothingm1ch loves scalar .. and ...
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22:53 nothingm1ch i also couldn't manage to wrangle Text::VimColors
22:53 nothingm1ch i'll try to run :TOhtml myself
22:53 nothingm1ch since it's smarter
22:53 nothingm1ch optionally, ofcourse
22:53 nothingm1ch anyway, good night
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22:57 jabbot pugs - 1329 - oops, accidentally removed line
22:57 crysflame can jabbot tell us who committed?
22:57 Darren_Duncan question: anyone know what the semantic difference is between 'my $foo ::= 1;' and 'my $foo is constant = 1;' -- I'm using the former when declaring constants and wondering if I should use the latter instead
22:58 theorbtwo Suggestions for improvements to jabbot should go to gugod.
22:59 crysflame ok
23:05 Darren_Duncan the reason I used '::=' for constants was because '::=' did compile-time binding and so thought that if the bound value was a literal, then the container on the left was effectively a constant declaration
23:06 Darren_Duncan If they do mean the same thing, which one is easier to understand, the shorter or longer one
23:06 Darren_Duncan all ?
23:06 theorbtwo I'd say the longer one is easier to understand.
23:07 Darren_Duncan thanks for one answer
23:07 Darren_Duncan also, many of my constants are hashes of hashes of hashes etc ...
23:07 Darren_Duncan would declaring the root 'is constant' mean that all sub-elements can't be modified too?  this is the desired effect
23:07 theorbtwo I'm not sure.
23:08 Darren_Duncan in any event, I'll convert to 'is constant' for readability
23:08 Darren_Duncan (at the time I used '::=', I forgot that 'is constant' existed)
23:13 kungfuftr you can also `constant $PI = 3.142;`
23:14 kungfuftr iirc
23:14 Darren_Duncan thanks kungfuftr, thats even better
23:14 Darren_Duncan right now I'm looking for the synopsis that talks about this stuff ... started in S02
23:14 kungfuftr you should read Perl 6 and Parrot essentials at some point... slightly neater format than the synopses
23:15 Darren_Duncan I thought those were out of date
23:15 kungfuftr yeah, bulk of it is correct though
23:15 Darren_Duncan in any event, while I want one for each year, I only have the first edition, currently
23:16 kungfuftr but if you think about it... `my Int $foo = blah;` so constant $foo seems reasonable to have a variable of 'constant' datatype
23:16 Darren_Duncan now looking in A12
23:16 kungfuftr anyways
23:16 Darren_Duncan I mean S12
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23:21 * theorbtwo tunes out for a bit.
23:27 jabbot pugs - 1330 - Reorder some text
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23:33 Darren_Duncan okay, change committed ... all '::=' changed to 'is constant =' in my modules ... seems every other module already does 'is constant'
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23:37 jabbot pugs - 1331 - constants declarations in LKT and SRT al
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