Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-03-31

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 * crysflame nods
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00:34 kungfuftr nn all
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01:13 Darren_Duncan Here's something for you Mac OS X users ...
01:14 Darren_Duncan The result of a short intro exchange I had with BareBones Software is that they will indeed be adding Perl 6 specific syntax coloring et al to BBEdit 8, in response to my feature request (fwd to the lists 2 days ago), though specific dates are unknown as yet
01:15 Darren_Duncan Also, aside from the legal paperwork, I have been accepted as a beta tester for that feature once its is ready
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01:17 Darren_Duncan For those of you who don't know about it, this is the program: http://www.barebones.com/products/bbedit/index.shtml
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01:23 crysflame bbedit rules
01:23 crysflame REALLY
01:23 crysflame Darren_Duncan++ # hot damn, you rule
01:24 Darren_Duncan crysflame, I also asked and ...
01:24 Darren_Duncan other people such as yourself, who use the program, can also apply to beta test this feature
01:25 Darren_Duncan that said, they don't want to maintain a huge beta pool, so prefer just the most qualified candidates
01:26 Darren_Duncan a wild guess of mine is that about a half-dozen of us who work A LOT with Perl 6 and know it inside and out is probably about the right maximum
01:27 Darren_Duncan chrysflame, are you on version 8, or an older version?
01:27 Darren_Duncan I mean crysflame
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01:31 crysflame i do not use bbedit
01:31 crysflame but thank you for the offer
01:31 crysflame even if i were to beta test it i wouldn't use it much, and my perl6 experience is so slim as to be nearly nil
01:32 crysflame it would be a waste of their time to accept me as a beta tester right now :) maybe in a while
01:32 crysflame i submit ingy in my place
01:32 Darren_Duncan so was your praise of the program based on third party experience rather than yours?
01:32 crysflame no, i've used it before
01:33 Darren_Duncan what do you use now?
01:33 crysflame i use vim and textedit
01:33 crysflame textedit is super lightweight
01:33 Darren_Duncan I see
01:33 crysflame vim is heavy and effective
01:33 crysflame bbedit doesn't offer me anything that i don't already have satisfied elsewhere :|
01:34 Darren_Duncan I find that BBEdit has lots of features but is not bloated, and many features I use everyday that the likes of textedit don't have ... I also find command-line editors (eg vim) to be too difficult to use, even if they are powerful
01:34 Darren_Duncan it also keeps improving greatly with each version.
01:35 Darren_Duncan my last version was 6.5, from 3 years earlier ... big improvement since then
01:35 Darren_Duncan prior to that, I used the Lite 4.1 for years, which was free
01:35 Darren_Duncan now, Text Wrangler is free
01:35 Darren_Duncan since its free, its no sacrifice for you to try TW
01:37 Darren_Duncan I just like the look and feel of it too
01:37 Darren_Duncan more so than anything else
01:39 Darren_Duncan crysflame, you suggested Ingy as a candidate ... do you know for a fact that he uses Mac OS X?
01:41 q[acme] he's got an ibook and everything
01:41 crysflame yes
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01:52 theorbtwo svn rm util/catalog_tests.pl ; svn mv util/catalog_tests.jmm.pl util/catalog_tests.pl OK with everyone and the right way to do it?
01:57 stevan theorbtwo: no
01:58 stevan oh wait
01:58 stevan yest that is right
01:58 stevan sorry read it wrong
01:58 theorbtwo Whew, because I already did it.
01:58 stevan :)
01:58 stevan I switched the rm and mv at first
01:59 theorbtwo Also, replaced a bunch of code.  Still has more or less the same problems as before, but seems a lot cleaner to me.
01:59 theorbtwo Also, it works around it's own problems at least somewhat.
02:01 jabbot pugs - 1360 - ...in with the new (I hope I didn't mess
02:01 jabbot pugs - 1359 - Out with the old...
02:01 jabbot pugs - 1358 - catalog_tests: This code has around the
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02:32 kcwu I expect "$x=-> $a { -> $b { $a+$b }};" should work as "$x=sub ($a) { sub ($b) { $a+$b }}", but pugs doesn't. Is pugs wrong? Or I am wrong?
02:33 theorbtwo Your expectations mesh with mine.
02:41 jabbot pugs - 1361 - Fix links.  (Who tried to put syntatic q
02:56 autrijus hi lambdacamels!
02:56 autrijus it seems that there's another Pugs hackathon at June, a few weeks before yapc::na
02:56 autrijus featuring leo toetsch and yours truly!
02:57 theorbtwo A few weeks?
02:57 autrijus details tbd (austrian perl workshop)
02:58 theorbtwo Oh, OK then.
02:58 autrijus 9th 10th june
02:58 theorbtwo I'm going halfway out of my mind trying to schedule my summer vacation, but if this is in australia, I don't care.
02:58 theorbtwo Oh.  Austria.  Possibly I care.
02:58 autrijus :D
02:58 theorbtwo Oh: Good-morning.
02:58 autrijus Vienna.pm++
02:59 autrijus good morning :)
02:59 hcchien Vienna!!
03:00 * theorbtwo thinks he's in the mood for a new and deeper project, so you've showed up just in time for me to quiz you about the parser...
03:01 autrijus woot
03:01 autrijus quiz away
03:01 autrijus kcwu: I think it's a bug (or likely a bug). write a test?
03:02 theorbtwo Is there a reason that identifier `sepBy1` (try $ string "::") is repeated all over the place, or should they be taken out and replaced with a common (monadic) function?
03:02 autrijus there's no reason
03:02 autrijus please refactor away
03:02 autrijus call it ruleQualifiedIdentifier
03:02 autrijus or something like that.
03:03 theorbtwo Does that belong in... ah, that was one of my next questions.  Lexer or Parser?
03:03 autrijus your call. I don't terribly care.
03:03 theorbtwo OK.
03:03 theorbtwo Parser it is.
03:03 autrijus =)
03:09 stevan hey autrijus, good morning
03:12 kcwu How do I write tests if pugs runtime error? comment that line and write fail("msg") ?
03:12 stevan kcwu: does it work with eval ?
03:12 stevan or does it fail with that as well
03:13 kcwu even with eval(), pugs terminate when encounter that line
03:14 stevan comment out the test and use fail
03:14 stevan but there is a standard message ,.. it should be in t/README somewhere
03:14 stevan fail("FIXME parsfail")
03:14 stevan I think
03:15 stevan and if it is a bug, use fail(), but if it is un-implemented feature, use todo_fail()
03:15 theorbtwo Hm, I'd really rather the actual code be present in the message issued, so it shows up in my HTML thingy.
03:16 stevan theorbtwo: good idea, can you ammend t/README to say that?
03:16 theorbtwo Hm, I probably shouldn't have broken the smoker while kungfuftr is asleep.
03:16 theorbtwo Oh, wait, he's not using the bit... I wonder why it's not running, then.
03:16 theorbtwo Oh, it is, but his clock is wrong.
03:17 stevan did he get it to watch the RSS feed?
03:17 stevan or is it just a regular cron?
03:18 theorbtwo Last I heard, a cronjob running at 0 and 30 past the hour.
03:18 theorbtwo But the time in the title tag says 2:57:21 (GMT), but the r shown is up-to-date.
03:19 theorbtwo So I'm confused.
03:21 jabbot pugs - 1362 - add tests for nested "pointy" block
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04:56 theorbtwo Oh.  Nevermind, the smoker's running, it's just doing it slowly.
05:01 jabbot pugs - 1363 - adding tests for hex(), ord(), chr() and
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05:31 jabbot pugs - 1364 - adding tests for abs(), log(), rand(), s
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05:41 jabbot pugs - 1365 - rand() may equal to 0
06:00 jdv79 stevan, still around?
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06:41 jabbot pugs - 1366 - mostly minor LKT and SRT test updates -
07:01 gaal to2, you there?
07:04 * castaway was wondering that
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08:39 kungfuftr moo
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08:44 gaal se!
08:44 castaway Servus!
08:45 gaal continuation antler style }:)
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08:57 castaway hey nm
08:57 nothingmuch morning
08:57 * nothingmuch hates banks
09:00 Darren_Duncan morning
09:00 Darren_Duncan I made my first use of multi-methods today ... and tomorrow is my first use of hyper-operators
09:01 Darren_Duncan the SQL::Routine perl6ification is thereby proceeding further into the "what does perl 6 add" waters
09:01 jabbot pugs - 1368 - ArgParse.hs - moving from strings to an
09:01 jabbot pugs - 1367 - another SQL::Routine perl6ification incr
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09:37 Juerd Someone port DBI please ;)
09:38 rgs ask Tim
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09:43 jdv79 DBI on parrot or bust! ;)
09:43 castaway Juerd, DIY, methinks :)
09:44 Juerd What is DIV?
09:45 rgs DIY is Do It Yourself </purl>
09:45 Juerd Oh, Y, not V
09:45 Juerd This font really sucks.
09:45 jdv79 divs are an xhtml thing
09:45 Juerd Someone get me a useful small font that isn't too small. A direct truetype version of X's misc-fixed would work.
09:46 Juerd castaway: I'll port DBIx::Simple when DBI's there ;)
09:46 Juerd Though I really, really, do hope the default interface will be made sane.
09:46 jdv79 DBI and DBD::* is a lot of code isn't it?
09:46 castaway default interface?
09:47 Juerd castaway: DBI's interface without wrapper
09:47 Juerd jdv79: Loads.
09:47 castaway Juerd: hmm, works fine for me
09:47 Juerd castaway: It works, but it sucks. Somewhat like PHP.
09:47 jdv79 i don't think DBI is gonna change radically anytime soon
09:47 Juerd fetchrow_array doesn't return an array, it returns a list
09:48 castaway If you say so, I havent found it sucky
09:48 Juerd But fetchrow_arrayref isn't consistent, because it does return an arrayref, not a listref
09:48 Juerd (listrefs do not exist)
09:48 Juerd And why all the typing? Why fetchrow_arrayref if "array" implies the rest?
09:48 jdv79 in the docs he says that he's looking to fix those little things
09:48 Juerd Further, why are fetchall_arrayref and fetchall_hashref so terribly different?
09:49 Juerd etcetera,
09:49 Juerd s/,/./
09:49 castaway Because.
09:49 Juerd jdv79: I hope so. But I hope "fetchrow_", "selectall_" and "fetchall_" are seen as a problem that needs fixing
09:49 Juerd Otherwise it'll only be made consistent, while improvement can be found in much more.
09:50 jdv79 i don't see it as a problem
09:50 * castaway goes back to prodding at oracle procedures
09:51 jdv79 the new p6 context stuff might be able to "fix" what you are talking about Juerd
09:51 jdv79 is that what you mean?
09:51 Juerd No
09:51 Juerd The method names are stupid.
09:52 Juerd It can be made a little more intelligent
09:52 Juerd In essense, letting the thing know what you want makes sense
09:52 Juerd And having a lot of methods instead of one that does everything you want makes sense too
09:52 Juerd But saving on typing by having lots of methods, and then making the method names this long is a bit weird.
09:53 Juerd For that matter, it could just have been fetch(row => 'arrayref')
09:53 jdv79 how would you "fix" it?
09:53 jdv79 and that's less typing how?
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09:57 Juerd jdv79: Have a look at DBIx::Simple
09:58 Juerd That's one way
09:58 Juerd But I imagine Perl 6 has more idiomatic ways to solve this
09:58 jdv79 oh course you wrote it so you're biased no matter what:)
09:58 Juerd In particular, I imagine a 'fetch' method that uses the want object to know what's wanted
09:59 Juerd $result.fetch.as(Array)
09:59 Juerd my @foo = $result.fetch
09:59 Juerd my %foo = $result.fetch
09:59 jdv79 i think the more fine grained calling context can help
09:59 Juerd And then having fetchall makes sense again.
09:59 Juerd selectall and friends are a terrible mistake
10:00 Juerd Necessary only because without it, DBI's a pain in the arse.
10:00 Juerd (Lots and lots of typing)
10:00 Juerd jdv79: I made it because of exactly the same reason: I think DBI's interface sucks
10:00 Juerd Or, well, could be much better.
10:01 jdv79 did you tell Bunce about your ideas?
10:01 Juerd The dbh/sth idea works well, naturally, even though it'd be nice to skip the extra steps in between *by default*
10:01 Juerd jdv79: Not explicitly. I'm certain he knows about DBIx::Simple though.
10:01 castaway thats what selectall does, surely?
10:02 jdv79 how can you expect DBI to change if you don't tell the author about your grievances?
10:02 Juerd castaway: Yes, but specifying the return type in the dbh method is a serious breach of purity, and would require wrapping of each of the methods in order to be consistent.
10:02 Juerd castaway: A single method that says "prepare and execute this query and return the sth" fixes a lot.
10:03 jdv79 isn't that do()
10:03 Juerd That's the very first thing EVERY DBI wrapper does.
10:03 Juerd jdv79: No, that doesn't give you the sth
10:03 jdv79 it gives you one step further, the result, doesn't it?
10:04 Juerd jdv79: I don't *expect* it to change. Its author obviously thinks about this differently than I do, because otherwise why would the module be as it is?
10:04 * castaway thinks the DBIx::FetchContext (or whatever its called) adds those
10:04 Juerd jdv79: No, it does not. do is useless for select queries.
10:04 jdv79 ContextualFetch and yeah, that one is cool
10:04 Juerd Another thing that's needed is statement caching
10:04 castaway Juerd, generally because thats what the author thought of at the time.. without suggestions, its hard to see the wood for the trees
10:04 Juerd So you don't have to prepare and cache manually
10:05 Juerd castaway: If they're smart, and of that I'm convinced, they look at all the existing DBI wrappers to see what they all do.
10:05 jdv79 totally, i would suggest you write this all down and send it to Bunce Juerd
10:05 Juerd Obviously, I think only DBIx::Simple got it right, but one thing they all do is provide a single prepare-and-execute method in one form or another.
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10:05 castaway Juerd: who has time for such? (I certainly wouldnt have)
10:05 Juerd jdv79: I've written it all down once, but I can't find the PM node.
10:05 castaway plus ALL is a lot of them
10:06 rgs who is nothingmuch ?
10:06 castaway this is why its a community, people work together
10:06 castaway rgs, how do you mean?
10:06 rgs Yuval Kogman, ok
10:06 rgs castaway: I'm adding people to the P5 AUTHORS files.
10:06 rgs I had only his email address
10:06 castaway ah, ok
10:06 ingy hola
10:07 autrijus Juerd: I use the Anonymous font.
10:07 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=415809
10:07 autrijus it looks great on small size
10:07 Juerd There it is
10:07 Juerd Google--  # lost a hell of a lot of PM nodes!
10:07 jdv79 we don't need to see it - send it to the author of DBI!
10:07 Juerd autrijus: Thanks, I'll have a look soon
10:08 castaway google is not supposed to have PM nodes
10:08 Juerd It is
10:08 Juerd Super Search is no longer in the menu and Google is recommended
10:08 castaway as far as I understand it anyway
10:08 Juerd In fact, perlmonks.thepen.com exists for search engine (mostly Google) indexing.
10:09 castaway Funny, its in mine, and I've never seen such an announcement
10:09 Juerd Oh, it's back :)
10:09 castaway the stuff to sort out robots etc isnt add yet, afaik
10:09 Juerd I'm sure it was gone a while.
10:09 castaway Not that I ever noticed anyways
10:09 tomyan Juerd: have you read http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20040127225639.GF38394@dansat.data-plan.com
10:09 Juerd Google very properly ignores the PM site, as requested by the site.
10:10 Juerd tomyan: Yes.
10:10 castaway right.
10:10 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
10:10 rgs hi nothingmuch
10:10 Juerd tomyan: TBH, I don't care much about the internals. They work very well for me, and I expect them to continue to work in a similar way. People working on this I'm sure are doing the right thing.
10:11 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=415809 is the rant about DBI's interface, fyi
10:11 Juerd Unprepared so unstructured
10:12 jdv79 if its just interface then your module fixes "the problem"
10:12 jdv79 i personally would like to see both the interface and the guts a little nicer
10:12 jdv79 but it works fine for now:)
10:13 Juerd jdv79: Yes, the module does fix it.
10:13 Juerd jdv79: Otherwise I would not have written it
10:13 jdv79 ok Juerd
10:13 Juerd jdv79: However, as things are already going to be incompatible, it'd be great if DBI's own interface would be so that wrappers can mostly become an historical artifact.
10:14 Juerd And there can be DBI::Compat perhaps
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10:15 jdv79 well, even if it does change i can almost guarantee it would mirror your module
10:15 jdv79 won't rather
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10:19 kungfuftr nothingmuch: mind if i make a few changes to the testgraph stuff?
10:26 Juerd jdv79: That's not necessary.
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10:26 Juerd jdv79: Perl 6 has many neat features that allow for an even better interface.
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10:27 Juerd jdv79: And when the interface itself is good, features can be added in subclasses/roles/mixins instead of wrappers, and everyone can benefit from them.
10:27 Juerd (They can now, but it's much harder)
10:28 jdv79 cool, tell Bunce cause I'm not gonna do it:)
10:29 Juerd Before I contact anyone designing DBI directly, I want to have a solid idea of what I think would be best.
10:29 Juerd And at this moment, I don't have that
10:29 Juerd Because I don't know how to tell a method what to return
10:29 Juerd This is something that Perl 6 should do, not the module itself. And the want object is how to read this informatio
10:29 Juerd (Or return value based dispatch, which isn't going to happen iirc)
10:30 Juerd %hash = RHS, @array = RHS are simple and clear
10:30 Juerd But what do you do in the case of foreach $result.fetch -> ... { ... }
10:30 Juerd It'd be neat if that worked such that for $result.fetch -> %hash { ... } and for $result.fetch -> @array { ... } dwym
10:30 Juerd (s/foreach/for/g)
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10:31 Juerd And for $result.fetch -> $columnfoo, $columnbar { ... }
10:31 Juerd That'd also throw some renewed purpose into sigils.
10:31 Juerd Since they're kind of purposeless in current Perl 6 :)
10:32 Juerd They're just syntax with subtle differences, no longer necessary, as $aref can be used just as @array in almost every situation.
10:32 Odin- Some kind of mental assistence: "This is how I intend to use this"..?
10:33 Juerd I should probably dump this at p6l
10:33 Juerd But first I need to think about it some more
10:33 Juerd The smart .fetch is the only idea I currently have
10:33 Juerd And that neglects the prepare/execute thingies
10:34 * Odin- is under the impression that Perl6 is getting to be frighteningly like some sort of "lisp with syntax"...
10:34 Juerd Let alone the func interface (Which I'd love to see gone completely - let drivers subclass DBI and add real methods)
10:34 Juerd Odin-: Correct impression.
10:34 Odin- :)
10:35 Juerd afk
10:35 * Juerd is going to work (place, not verb)
10:36 nothingmuch kungfuftr: feel free
10:36 nothingmuch it's not my code
10:36 nothingmuch it's stevan's
10:36 nothingmuch but it's not really his, it's ours
10:37 nothingmuch btw, could you update your pugs-smoke.html to be more like mine?
10:37 nothingmuch that is, also generate docs?
10:37 autrijus right. we're jsut a bunch of crazy socioanarchists :)
10:37 * autrijus finally recovered from mild food poisoning
10:37 Odin- autrijus: Isn't that the idea behind open source?
10:37 nothingmuch food poisoning? again?
10:38 autrijus Odin-: sure, as eben's paper had nicely put
10:38 autrijus nothingmuch: yeah. :-/
10:38 nothingmuch oi vey
10:38 Odin- autrijus: 'Anarchism triumphant', or?
10:39 autrijus yes, that.
10:39 Odin- Yeah. :p
10:39 autrijus one of classical readings :)
10:39 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
10:39 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
10:39 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "smoke report generating script" (38 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8792
10:40 autrijus nothingmuch++
10:41 Odin- Hm. Yeah, although he's from the FSF, and thus a bit more ... shall we say ideological, than 'open source' folks... :/
10:41 nothingmuch autrijus: eris sometimes goes to sleep, i'll make etherwake setuid, and make a global 'wake-eris' cmd
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10:42 autrijus Odin-: sure, but it makes a good read nevertheles
10:43 Odin- autrijus: Indeed. (I myself belong more in that camp, I'm afraid. ;)
10:44 autrijus that's fine :)
10:44 autrijus nothingmuch: roger
10:45 nothingmuch oi vey: ld: truncated or malformed archive: /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/libHSbase.a at offset 1388334 (member extends past the end of the file, can't load from it)
10:45 kungfuftr nothingmuch: i would, however still can't work it out
10:46 nothingmuch what can't you work out?
10:46 nothingmuch testgraph.pl, or that shell snippet?
10:46 elmex has joined #perl6
10:47 nothingmuch hmm... my squid is acting up
10:50 osfameron squid++ # battered, if it's not overcooked and rubbery
10:50 nothingmuch but sometimes it refuses to be greedy
10:51 nothingmuch in that case even I feel like cooking it
10:51 nothingmuch although i'm a vegeterian
10:51 * nothingmuch asked it to save up to 10 GBV
10:52 nothingmuch du -sh /var/cache/squid/
10:52 nothingmuch 944M    /var/cache/squid/
10:52 kungfuftr nothingmuch: getting the docs generated
10:52 nothingmuch policy is lru
10:52 nothingmuch perl catalog_tests.jmm.pl makes t_index out of t/Synopsis and t/
10:55 * castaway smiles.
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11:17 * nothingmuch smiles back at castaway
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11:25 nothingmuch disktool/diskutil
11:25 * nothingmuch likes the fact that every app on OSX has some kind of esoteric, hidden, but very complete CLI
11:25 nothingmuch softwareupdate, installer
11:25 nothingmuch Kicker and configd
11:25 nothingmuch via scutil
11:25 nothingmuch nicl
11:25 nothingmuch especially in raw mode
11:26 xerox What does CLI mean?
11:26 nothingmuch command line interface
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11:34 castaway nm, they do? so wheres the SEE one? :)
11:34 nothingmuch 'see' ;-)
11:34 castaway and anyway, wheres my test sEE? :)
11:34 castaway wow, really?
11:34 nothingmuch yes
11:34 castaway whts it do?
11:34 nothingmuch you can open pipes or files in SEE
11:34 nothingmuch and it can wait, or be async
11:34 * castaway is impressed
11:35 nothingmuch no, wait, i can't
11:35 * nothingmuch has no subetha on eris yet
11:35 nothingmuch i can pull it off
11:35 nothingmuch i'm not logged in, so SEE can't really run
11:37 castaway umm.. eh?
11:37 nothingmuch i don't think you can publish/announce from the CLI yet, though
11:37 nothingmuch i have SSH access
11:37 nothingmuch but no windowserver session
11:37 castaway ah, I see
11:37 nothingmuch you can do most that stuff from 'osascript' though
11:37 castaway osascript?
11:38 nothingmuch OSX apps have what's called the open scripting architechture
11:38 castaway (we have a product/solution called "OSA" :)
11:38 nothingmuch which allows you to send events
11:38 nothingmuch typically scripted by applescript
11:38 castaway funky stuff
11:38 nothingmuch perl has Mac::Glue to take advantage of that
11:38 nothingmuch the app must be enabled though
11:38 wolverian is that like corba?
11:38 nothingmuch wolverian: much higher level
11:38 nothingmuch tell application "SubEthaEdit"
11:39 nothingmuch open "file/name"
11:39 nothingmuch announce file # or whatever, app specific
11:39 castaway sounds like COM/VBScript
11:39 nothingmuch raise window 0
11:39 nothingmuch end tell
11:39 nothingmuch i bet it's similar
11:39 wolverian that looks _very_ nice
11:39 wolverian if only linux had that kind of application consistency
11:40 wolverian (although I guess gnome will get there eventually.)
11:40 nothingmuch autrijus' subetha/kwiki hack uses applescript
11:41 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Kwiki-Edit-SubEtha-0.02/lib/Kwiki/Edit/SubEtha.pm
11:41 nothingmuch don't view it in a browser, it's screwey
11:41 nothingmuch view source
11:41 castaway *g*
11:42 nothingmuch errm, wait not that
11:42 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/src/AUTRIJUS/Kwiki-Edit-SubEtha-0.02/script/subethakwiki.pl
11:43 nothingmuch look at that 'tell menu stuff
11:43 nothingmuch that's really funky
11:43 nothingmuch oh, i forgot 'open'
11:43 nothingmuch it does URLs, or file based handling
11:43 nothingmuch open foo.txt -> your editor
11:43 kungfuftr nothingmuch: who own's the cataloging script?
11:43 nothingmuch kungfuftr: we do
11:43 nothingmuch ;-)
11:43 nothingmuch theorbtwo wrote it's begining
11:43 kungfuftr nothingmuch: ah, k
11:43 nothingmuch i did most of the ugly stuff
11:44 nothingmuch svn blame
11:44 castaway pugs owns it ,)
11:44 kungfuftr yar, is it effecient? ie: doesn't try to update if test hasn't changed, etc?
11:44 nothingmuch kungfuftr: not yet
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11:45 nothingmuch we could break it up
11:45 nothingmuch and then use make to handle that logic
11:45 nothingmuch s/long/longer/
11:45 nothingmuch the snippet i posted does that in parallel
11:45 nothingmuch it rarely takes it long than it takes GHC to skip everything
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11:48 wolverian nothingmuch: gnome-open works similarly, it uses gnomevfs, so it can open documents I think even via gopher.
11:48 metaperl has joined #perl6
11:49 nothingmuch that's cool
11:49 * nothingmuch hacked together mailtomutt
11:50 wolverian gnomevfs-mount is the coolest app of this week.
11:50 nothingmuch and there's also lbdb support for address book
11:50 * wolverian mounts a website
11:50 nothingmuch so then i could do open 'mailto:blah'
11:50 nothingmuch and have a new terminal with mutt
11:50 nothingmuch and completion, and so on
11:50 nothingmuch but since then i've moved to a laptop
11:50 nothingmuch ooh
11:50 castaway theres too many camps in the "linux software" troup to get a general consensus on stuff like that, methinks, anyway
11:50 nothingmuch osx knows to mount ftp and DAV
11:50 castaway there'll always be X ways to do it
11:51 tomyan yeah, like kde has dcop
11:51 wolverian gnome can mount just about anything as well, but the mounts aren't integrated into the filesystem, AFAIK
11:51 * nothingmuch thinks all of unix is too much legacy
11:51 nothingmuch the standard C libs, and posix in general could be rethought
11:51 wolverian that is, you can only use nautilus to browse the mounts, not the CLI
11:51 nothingmuch based on the current state of the linux kernel it could be made much nicer
11:52 * nothingmuch doesn't want that to happen though
11:53 nothingmuch can't just uproot everything
11:53 kungfuftr bah, cataloging thing hates me
11:53 nothingmuch kungfuftr: it has many deps
11:53 nothingmuch and it needs a new Fille::Spec
11:53 nothingmuch there's a bug in an old one
11:53 nothingmuch that ships with recent perls (like 5.9.1)
11:54 nothingmuch abs2rel was broken somehow
11:54 kungfuftr nothingmuch: ack well, i'll just try it
12:01 wolverian nothingmuch: http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dvfs might be interesting.
12:01 wolverian sorry if you know about that already :) (it is relatively new)
12:01 nothingmuch i don't work with gnome/kde, so i visit freedesktop only sporadically
12:03 nothingmuch it sounds good
12:03 wolverian the idea is nice, though. I'm not sure how fully it is implemented in even COM and such.
12:03 nothingmuch OSX has a FileManger object in Cocoa
12:03 nothingmuch it's got some nice facilities
12:03 nothingmuch for creating, opening, closing, saving (atomically too)
12:03 nothingmuch it wraps aroudn kqueue (i think) for notifications
12:04 nothingmuch maybe in GNUStep it's done with FAM
12:05 wolverian isn't FAM just an alteration monitor?
12:05 wolverian (e.g. not a generic messaging bus)
12:05 nothingmuch oh!
12:05 nothingmuch another OSX thing:
12:05 nothingmuch pbcopy, pbpaste
12:05 nothingmuch very useful
12:05 nothingmuch pbpaste | perl is something i use all the time
12:05 wolverian what does that do?
12:05 nothingmuch wolverian: i meant the monitoring part
12:05 nothingmuch it talks to the clipboard
12:06 nothingmuch in nextstep it's called the pasteboard
12:06 wolverian nothingmuch: ah. yes, I expect linux things to use fam/gamin for that.
12:06 wolverian (gamin is a strict subset of fam functionality, simpler code)
12:08 wolverian hmm, pbcopy/paste seems useful.
12:08 wolverian I wonder if I have something like that. using the mouse is a bother.
12:09 kungfuftr nothingmuch: rightio... generated... add to script
12:10 nothingmuch kungfuftr++
12:10 nothingmuch so now we have osx and freebsd
12:10 nothingmuch you should ci your css change
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12:11 nothingmuch (just normalize the grey so it's on the whole doc, i think)
12:12 autrijus purr
12:13 q[acme] miaow
12:14 kungfuftr nothingmuch: k
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12:18 kungfuftr nothingmuch: who else is running an auto-smoke?
12:18 nothingmuch me, so far
12:18 nothingmuch we're working on merging it
12:18 nothingmuch well, planning on working
12:18 nothingmuch i'll write a CGI that takes the tests.yml and consolidates
12:18 nothingmuch and then keeps HTML results X revisions back, or something
12:19 kungfuftr ah, k
12:20 kungfuftr i might need to change it to run every hour instead of every 30 mins
12:20 kungfuftr =0(
12:21 jabbot pugs - 1372 - Changes to make the testgraph more reada
12:21 jabbot pugs - 1371 -  r4327@speights:  samv | 2005-03-31 20:1
12:21 jabbot pugs - 1370 -
12:21 jabbot pugs - 1369 -  r4313@speights:  samv | 2005-03-30 15:1
12:23 kungfuftr nothingmuch: no plans to hack Test::Smoke for our purposes?
12:25 mattc has left
12:25 nothingmuch soon
12:25 nothingmuch ;-)
12:25 nothingmuch it'll be in pugs
12:27 kungfuftr yay
12:28 kungfuftr rightio... auto-smoker will run every hour here now
12:28 kungfuftr =0/
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13:40 shapr huzzah!
13:42 nothingmuch LOL: Die Larry Wall and Perl developers,  
13:42 castaway ?
13:42 nothingmuch this was a thank you letter ;-)
13:43 nothingmuch hmm
13:43 rgs harmless typo.
13:43 rgs I suppose.
13:43 nothingmuch it's still very cute
13:44 rgs in fact, I hope it's only a typo
13:45 Juerd This is why you should enter text with a keyboard, not thought recognition.
13:45 nothingmuch http://groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.perl5.porters/msg/2f4d4181e478fa0a
13:45 nothingmuch Juerd: i meant to ask you
13:45 nothingmuch know the touchstream, and what you said about RSI and physical/audible feeback?
13:45 Juerd I even mentioned it in that conversation
13:46 nothingmuch i /reaaallly/ like feedback (apple keyboards of the 80s have wonderful response)
13:46 nothingmuch i have no rsi problems
13:46 Juerd And I said I thought it'd be horrible, but otoh maybe not because you don't have to press anything, so you also don't have to know when to stop pressing.
13:46 nothingmuch i hate reaching for the mouse
13:46 nothingmuch and i like gestures
13:46 Juerd I haven't tried any yet.
13:46 nothingmuch ok, that sort of makes sense
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13:46 * nothingmuch is afraid that if he'll buy it he'll start developing some problems
13:46 nothingmuch the bass has tought me to be gentle
13:47 nothingmuch but that's the mother of all feedbacks
13:47 Juerd The only way to find out if something is a good solution for you, is to try
13:47 * nothingmuch thinks he may not be able to decide till after it's too late
13:47 nothingmuch at $400 i'm a bit hesitant =)
13:47 Juerd I spent thousands.
13:48 Juerd In fact, in USD it'll be well over 10k.
13:48 nothingmuch on ergo equip?
13:48 Juerd Often I like something at first, and then after a month start hating it.
13:48 Juerd You can't evaluate input devices in a week.
13:48 * nothingmuch doesn't have ergo problems, i'm only seeking the coolness
13:48 nothingmuch well, ok, good point
13:48 Juerd And certainly not in a few minutes in a store
13:48 nothingmuch someone at work is a fan of these things
13:48 Juerd Or worse: from pictures on a website
13:48 nothingmuch so i might be able to steal it
13:49 nothingmuch the touch pad thing really seems logical to me
13:49 nothingmuch especially for scrolling
13:49 Juerd Yes, but I wonder if a keyboard without keys would work well
13:49 nothingmuch i don't know about typing
13:49 Juerd My current keyboard the opposite of flat :)
13:49 nothingmuch excatly
13:49 Juerd And the touchstream thingies are as flat as can be.
13:49 Juerd I really like this keyboard.
13:49 Juerd I'm going to buy one for at home soon.
13:50 nothingmuch this is my other option: http://matias.ca/tactilepro/
13:50 nothingmuch i think
13:50 nothingmuch for the clickity behavior
13:50 Juerd Clickies are nice to type with if you have strong hands
13:50 Juerd If your hands are not strong, don't use them even if you like them
13:50 Juerd I liked them, but my hands weren't strong enough
13:50 castaway bah, clickies
13:50 Juerd And training is an illusion.
13:51 nothingmuch i had the original clickie keyboard this one refers to
13:51 nothingmuch i used it for a long while
13:51 Juerd Long whiles don't say a thing
13:52 nothingmuch .../
13:52 nothingmuch ?
13:52 Juerd I used the same great keyboard for many years until I first experienced tremendous pain.
13:52 Juerd Then I had to switch
13:52 nothingmuch when did that start?
13:52 Juerd August 2001
13:52 nothingmuch i mean age wise
13:52 Juerd The information sheet has no information.
13:52 Juerd 17
13:53 Juerd Maybe 18
13:53 nothingmuch beh. tough decisions
13:53 Juerd Yes, 18.
13:53 Juerd What crappy site is this?
13:54 Juerd They don't mention the force of the keys.
13:54 nothingmuch which site is crappy?
13:54 ihb Juerd: if you had to choose, would you take a split keyboard with buttons that are harder to press, or a straight laptop-type keyboard?
13:54 nothingmuch the keyboard one i posted?
13:54 Juerd ihb: The normal famous split keyboards only move the problem from your wrists to your shoulders
13:55 Juerd ihb: So then it'd be the laptop keyboard, but only a good one - not compaq.
13:55 ihb what makes a laptop keyboard good?
13:55 Juerd ihb: However, if I had to choose between a good split keyboard (kinesis contoured) and a laptop kb, the kinesis'd win
13:55 Juerd The kinesis has perfect feedback too, by the way.
13:55 Juerd It clicks loudly.
13:56 Juerd ihb: The IBM part number ;)
13:56 ihb Juerd: my wrists hurt when i type on straight keyboards. :-/
13:56 Juerd ihb: It should feel solid, not wobbly.
13:56 Juerd ihb: And feedback must be right
13:56 ihb Juerd: kinesis contoured?
13:56 shapr I have two kinesis contoured, they're my favorit!
13:56 Juerd The Type Matrix keyboards are a nice idea, but I never got to fully evaluate the design principle because they implemented it with a rather crappy type of laptop keyboard, which gets on my nerves.
13:56 shapr And I use a custom "I am not a koala" keymap that moves all modifier keys under my thumbs.
13:57 Juerd ihb: www.kinesis-ergo.com
13:57 shapr Have you guys seen the flinder?
13:57 Juerd shapr: Eh, all except shift already are there.
13:57 ihb i'm about to get a new keyboard, so any tips are appreciated. :-)
13:57 shapr I'd suggest kinesis contoured.
13:57 Juerd ihb: If you're on a budget, get a Key Tronics ErgoForce
13:58 Juerd ihb: If not, Kinesis Contoured
13:59 shapr Juerd: I swapped Shift_L and DEL, and got rid of Shift_R (it's iswitchb-buffer now). I remapped End and PgDn to Hyper, and Home and PgUp to Super.
13:59 * nothingmuch would like a programmer's dvorak
14:00 shapr My keymap started out as dvorak.
14:00 castaway http://desert-island.dynodns.net/bilder/diverse/giraffe.jpg (my keyboard)
14:00 nothingmuch {} and sigils should be easy
14:00 nothingmuch ; should be veeerry easy
14:00 nothingmuch every time i try to switch programming stops me
14:00 nothingmuch shapr: what other changes did you make?
14:01 ihb Juerd: so you're saying that in general split isn't any better than straight?
14:01 shapr Meaning-oriented changes mostly. I'm in pursuit of Jef Raskin's ideals.
14:01 castaway (dont all click at once, that lags :)
14:01 shapr castaway: gorgeous keyboard, what did you map that large giraffe key to do? ;-)
14:01 nothingmuch shapr: i have a silly project i'm not getting to that is sort of like raskin's zoom
14:01 nothingmuch did i bug you or only stevan about it?
14:01 shapr Not me.
14:02 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
14:02 nothingmuch i'll bug you some time, if you're curious
14:02 shapr I'd very much like to hear about it.
14:02 nothingmuch i know how i'll implement it, i just can't find the tuits
14:02 castaway shapr, its the look-cute key :)
14:02 * nothingmuch has to go to his bass lesson soon though
14:02 nothingmuch so can't now
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14:02 shapr I agree with Raskin's ideas, though I don't always agree with his implementations. I met him at EuroPython 2004, and I'm sorry he's gon now :-(
14:03 shapr castaway: Wow, great idea!
14:03 Juerd ihb: Depends on your body.
14:03 Juerd Juerd: For thin people, it's bad.
14:03 shapr Isn't that a key-locked 5.25 disk holder to the left of your screen?
14:04 * castaway checks
14:04 Juerd nothingmuch: I use dvorak and like it very much.
14:04 Juerd nothingmuch: My dvorak course is at dvorak.nl
14:04 kungfuftr ah... much better
14:04 castaway (the pic is a bit old)
14:04 shapr I'm not thin, and I still don't like split keyboards. I think the kinesis design is much more natural. When you sit down and relax, do you put your hands on your knees, or together in your lap?
14:04 castaway na, thats a 3.5" box
14:06 Juerd shapr: Hands on the keyboard
14:06 Juerd They give you soft pads with it
14:06 Juerd It's comfortable too
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14:06 shapr I mean split keyboards like microsoft natural. They still put your hands together. Kinesis doesn't require that.
14:06 shapr I much prefer Kinesis.
14:06 Juerd The distance is fixed though
14:07 Juerd At a good distance imo
14:07 shapr ihb: if you're in north Sweden, you can try my Kinesis =)
14:07 Juerd And if you're near .nl, you can try mine
14:07 Juerd But not for a month, because I need it :)
14:07 shapr I have a spare.
14:07 ihb haha :-)
14:07 Juerd It takes more than a month to get used to it
14:07 shapr Hm, it took me about three days.
14:08 Juerd Were you no touch typists before?
14:08 Juerd s/ts/t/
14:08 shapr But then, I regularly remap my keyboard for fun, maybe that's related?
14:08 Juerd haha
14:08 Juerd The problem I had is that the keys are no longer horizontally shifted each row
14:09 Juerd They're in a matrix position, and that took serious getting used to
14:09 shapr Oh yeah, I had that problem with the next to bottom row, my fingers couldn't find that row at all the first few hours.
14:09 Juerd I have to admit that I still have only one and half of my typing is at home on a normal keyboard
14:09 Juerd I have a problem with the bottom row
14:09 Juerd I've remapped all those keys elsewhere so I have two options
14:10 Juerd Only very slowly I'm getting used to hitting the original keys
14:10 shapr I have a theory that dealing with change is a skill like any other, and I practice that with stuff like continual small keymap changes.
14:10 Juerd I can handle small keymap changes well
14:11 Juerd And it took me only a week or so to get used to dvorak
14:11 Juerd (then a month to regain my old speed)
14:11 shapr That is impressive.
14:11 shapr And that's not a small change.
14:11 Juerd It's a big change indeed
14:11 Juerd But using the key positions I had always used
14:11 Juerd Getting used to keys in a slightly different position is harder
14:12 shapr For me that's the other way around. I can use different keyboards with the same layout just fine. But different layouts on the same keyboard is more difficult.
14:12 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
14:13 Juerd shapr: What layout do you use?
14:13 shapr modified dvorak.
14:13 shapr Like I said, I've moved the modifier keys under my thumbs.
14:13 Juerd Modifier keys are not part of dvorak.
14:14 shapr True, but dvorak on kinesis does define modifier keys.
14:14 mattc Hi all, I'm thinking of having a look at the modules and tests for missing builtins in the IO namespace.  Anything you think I should know?
14:14 Juerd shapr: Not differently from qwerty
14:14 mattc sorry to interrupt the keyboard chat :)
14:14 shapr heh
14:14 Juerd shapr: I don't use the kinesis' dvorak layout by the way. I hate how it changes some things around for no reason at all.
14:14 Juerd And I must have `~ in the upper left corner
14:15 * castaway wonders if she missed a pic of a kinesis, whatever that is
14:15 Juerd castaway: www.kinesis-ergo.com "contoured"
14:15 shapr I don't know what the kinesis dvorak layout is, I use the dvorak layout flavor I like.
14:15 shapr castaway: http://kinesis-ergo.com/images/500-blk.jpg
14:16 shapr mattc: which tests?
14:16 castaway mm, funky, tho it looks like it needs more space on the desk
14:16 shapr I'm a lambdafolk trying to get comfy in the Perl6 world.
14:16 shapr castaway: it's smaller actually, because of the missing keypad .
14:16 wolverian I seriously need to force myself to learn dvorak. dammit, I'll just move the keys physically.
14:17 castaway but theres all that space in the middle
14:17 ihb shapr: ah, we've talked in haskell, haven't we?
14:17 shapr It is taller than other keyboards, which gave me a neat idea. Just put a nano-ITX mobo into the keyboard - http://www.scannedinavian.com/2004-05-24.html
14:17 shapr ihb: yes we have.
14:18 castaway *g* shapr
14:18 castaway looks odd.. anyway
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14:21 mattc shapr: um, eof, fileno, getc etc
14:21 Juerd castaway: No, less space.
14:22 mattc tests for those builtins
14:22 Juerd castaway: Or, well, a little more, but not significantly.
14:22 wolverian are strings arrays/lists in perl6?
14:22 castaway Juerd: hmm take a pic of one in action? :)
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14:22 Juerd castaway: Action in a picture?
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14:23 shapr I think the request is for a picture of a Kinesis on a desktop in front of a screen.
14:23 castaway Juerd: heh, yup.. y'know what I mean, with hands and surroundings etc
14:23 shapr Then you get a better feeling for the amount of space it requires.
14:23 Juerd With hands? WHY? :)
14:23 castaway correctimo
14:23 castaway because
14:23 wolverian just wondering, since S02 seems to say that arrays also have .bytes etc. and handling strings and arrays the same skips a .split.. :)
14:24 Juerd I'm not going to show you my hands. That's private! :)
14:24 castaway then borrow someones :)
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14:24 Juerd castaway: This is madness :)
14:24 * shapr gives Juerd a hand
14:24 shapr I've got a spare.
14:25 castaway :)
14:25 * castaway never claimed to be sane
14:25 shapr Oh, I had an idea for a seriously nutty keymap recently. Hidden Markov Model!
14:25 Juerd I can make a picture of my desk if you want
14:25 Juerd But without body parts.
14:25 shapr Instead of one single keymap, create a unique optimized keymap to follow each key pressed, and reserve one key to reset to a known state.
14:26 castaway That would be appreciated
14:27 Juerd It's a mess though
14:27 Juerd Be warned :)
14:28 castaway :)
14:29 castaway cant be worse than ours.. hmm, wheres that bash.org-mess entry..
14:29 clkao_ has joined #perl6
14:29 castaway same url bilder/mess.jpg :)
14:30 Juerd same url?
14:30 Juerd same as what?
14:30 shapr As the giraffe?
14:30 castaway as the one I gave before
14:30 * castaway is too lazy to type (same hostname, really)
14:30 stevan mattc: you were asking about IO builtin tests?
14:30 castaway thats a more recent pic too
14:31 mattc stevan: yes, I was
14:31 mattc was thinking about having a look at porting the IO namespace
14:31 mattc some builtin tests seems a logical place to start
14:31 stevan mattc: the IO namespace? as in Haskell System.IO?
14:32 mattc stevan: no, the perl 5 IO namespace
14:32 shapr Yeah, that's what I was wondering.
14:32 Juerd castaway: It's less, but only because I have a bigger desk and a lot of space to store stuff.
14:32 mattc don't know anything about Haskell....
14:32 stevan mattc: ah
14:33 stevan mattc: well the t/builtins/io/ directory could definitely use some work
14:33 mattc stevan: yeah, looking at that now
14:33 stevan you might also was to look at Synopsis 29 for a list of Built-ins
14:33 shapr And I don't know anything about Perl...
14:33 mattc excellent
14:33 castaway yeah, 2 machines on the same desk is pushing it a bit
14:33 mattc I'll do that
14:34 stevan mattc: here is the link to teh latest version http://www.rodadams.net/Perl/S29.html
14:34 mattc stevan: thanks very much
14:34 Juerd http://foto.juerd.nl/desk.jpg
14:34 Juerd Left desk is mine
14:34 mattc any other pointers are welcome :)
14:34 stevan mattc: actually it looks like Syn 16 will cover IO more
14:34 mattc ok
14:34 stevan mattc: t/README is a good reference
14:35 stevan other that that, just ask here, and someone will answer :)
14:35 stevan mattc: are you committer yet?
14:35 mattc yeah
14:35 castaway ooh, loadsaspace
14:35 Juerd castaway: Do you want a picture with this keyboard and a normal one?
14:35 stevan good
14:35 mattc I did some tests a couple of weeks ago
14:35 castaway mm, yeah, why not, if you've got one handy..
14:35 castaway thats a high monitor, are you tall? :)
14:36 mattc alright, I'll get started then, thanks for your help stevan
14:36 Juerd 1m83
14:36 scw Juerd: Why's the mouse on the floor? :p
14:36 stevan Juerd: is that some kind of foot pedal?
14:36 Juerd stevan: Yes
14:36 stevan mattc: your welcome :)
14:36 stevan Juerd: what for?
14:36 Juerd stevan: To access the numeric portion of the keyboard
14:36 Juerd The "keypad" layer
14:36 Juerd Which is full of macros and remapped keys :)
14:37 * castaway looks up
14:37 stevan Juerd: very cool
14:38 stevan mattc: be sure to add yourself to the AUTHORS file as well
14:39 shapr Juerd: is that silly putty on your desk?
14:39 Juerd castaway: http://foto.juerd.nl/keyboards.jpg
14:39 Juerd castaway: Smaller, as you can see
14:39 Juerd shapr: No, crazy putty.
14:39 stevan shapr: I saw that too :)
14:39 * shapr grins
14:40 malaire has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
14:40 * castaway scales pic
14:40 castaway ah yes, eversoslightly
14:40 shapr stevan: Is Silly Putty still sold in the US?
14:40 Juerd Get firefox :)
14:40 stevan looks like Juerd likes Jelly Beans as well :)
14:40 Juerd shapr: crazyputty.com
14:40 Juerd stevan: winegums
14:40 stevan shapr: I think so
14:40 stevan Juerd: winegums?
14:41 Juerd That's what they're called
14:41 shapr Similar to jelly beans.
14:41 shapr EuroBeans =)
14:41 Juerd Not really, shapr
14:41 shapr I think they're similar.
14:41 stevan for a more "mature" palette :)
14:41 castaway Juerd, only one problem tho.. I got taught (cough) one-handed typing :)
14:41 Juerd Winegums are soft, larger, not as annoyingly sweet
14:41 Juerd castaway: So?
14:41 * castaway uses 1.5 hands tho
14:41 castaway well, wont work on that keyboard so well :)
14:41 Juerd castaway: With this keyboard you automatically learn to type :)
14:42 castaway try it without thumbs ,)
14:42 Juerd Forget it
14:42 wolverian Juerd: is that windows running on your computer? :)
14:42 Juerd Do you not have thumbs?
14:42 Juerd wolverian: No
14:42 Juerd wolverian: It's the IE icon, right?
14:42 Juerd :)
14:43 wolverian yes. :) it'd have to be custom themed, though.
14:43 Juerd It's KDE
14:43 Juerd And IE runs with wine
14:43 wolverian ah, okay.
14:43 wolverian are you one of those strange people who don't run everything maximised?
14:43 castaway No, no thumbs
14:43 Juerd I quite messed up Abeltje's lightening talk about IE automization
14:43 * castaway grins at wolverian (thanks for adding to my survey .)
14:44 * shapr uses ion3
14:44 Juerd By asked "Will that work with IE under Linux?" "Of cour... IE under Linux?!"
14:44 Juerd s/asked/asking/
14:44 wolverian castaway: can I see this survey somewhere? :)
14:44 shapr yeah, me too.
14:44 Juerd wolverian: Yes.
14:45 castaway wolverian: heh, its in my head.. people that like everything maximised are seriously male brained (IMO anyway)
14:45 shapr male brained?
14:45 wolverian castaway: why?
14:45 Juerd I'm male and homosexual. Should be male brained.
14:45 shapr I am thoroughly male, if that helps any.
14:46 wolverian I'm a very girlish male!
14:46 shapr castaway: I shall ask the ion3 author if he has any females on the mailing list. That's a fascinating idea.
14:46 castaway well (my opinion), its similar to the multi-tasking thing.. men that cant stand seeing more than one window at once are terrible multitaskers
14:46 castaway whats ion3?
14:46 wolverian castaway: a window manager. think screen for X
14:46 castaway and its all due to male brainedness..
14:46 Juerd http://foto.juerd.nl/winegums.jpg  # not jelly beans.
14:46 wolverian (although it's not as simple; a better equivalent would be ratpoison)
14:46 shapr ion3 is the ultimate in running everything maximised.
14:46 wolverian shapr: ratpoison!
14:46 castaway (ie concentration on the task at hand - hunting, not gathering)
14:47 shapr wolverian: I can't use gimp well with ratpoison.
14:47 castaway shapr: that would be an interesting question, yes
14:47 shapr castaway: I disagree, I cannot function in this society without large doses of methylphenidate.
14:47 wolverian shapr: ah, okay.
14:47 Juerd shapr: See? Not similar.
14:47 castaway Juerd: not all males are male-brained
14:47 castaway methy-wot?
14:47 shapr Ritalino
14:47 shapr Vitamin R :-)
14:47 shapr ADDeral, Concerta, etc
14:48 Juerd castaway: So there could be a female in my head? That's scary.
14:48 * castaway has no clue what that is and why
14:48 Juerd (Women just are scary. Not my fault.)
14:48 shapr The trade name Ritalin has the chemical name methylphenidate.
14:48 castaway Juerd: its all my personal opinion, see it how you will :)
14:48 shapr castaway: it's a fascinating question, thanks for mentioning it. I shall continue to do research on that question for the next few years.
14:48 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
14:49 * Juerd wants confirmation from shapr (concentrate! :)) about winegums not being like jelly beans
14:49 shapr Juerd: No sir, I lived in the USA for the first 27 years of my life, and I've been in Finland and Sweden the next five years. I believe that winegums are very similar to jelly beans.
14:49 stevan Juerd: are they wine flavored?
14:49 Juerd And I'm not going to say what I want to say about ion before you answer :)
14:49 Juerd shapr: They're not!
14:49 Juerd stevan: Yes.
14:49 shapr c'est votre choix
14:50 shapr Similarity is in the eye of the beholder.
14:50 Juerd shapr: Anyway, ion works well with non-maximized windows.
14:50 castaway shapr I still dont know what Rita-wotsit is.. (but whatever .)
14:50 Juerd I've used it for more than a year.
14:50 shapr castaway: have you heard of ADD or ADHD?
14:50 castaway shapr, wine gums are nothing like jelly beans!
14:50 Juerd castaway++
14:50 saorge has joined #perl6
14:50 castaway shapr, vaguely
14:50 shapr If you say so. Possibly my US culture oriented palate has been permanently poisoned by the refined sugar culture from which I originate.
14:50 stevan shapr: they dont look or sound like jellybeans, I am gonna have to agree with them
14:51 Juerd Real winegums have the wine they taste like stamped on them, these all say "REDBAND"
14:51 stevan Juerd: are they a dutch thing? or german thing?
14:51 Juerd I don't know
14:51 * stevan remembers lots of weird gummi's from his time in germany
14:51 Juerd The name is english :)
14:51 castaway british
14:51 stevan even stranger :P
14:51 Juerd So
14:51 shapr castaway: Small children who cannot sit still, who cannot focus on a single task, they grow up to become adults who are just the same. Like me!
14:52 Juerd What else do you want to see?
14:52 castaway wine gums are soft, jelly beans have hard shells
14:52 Juerd It's almost 5 o'clock
14:52 stevan shapr: all Hail the ADD !!!!
14:52 shapr Hail Eris!
14:52 Juerd shapr: Long live cocai^Writalin
14:52 castaway shapr ah.. just another different human trait
14:52 Juerd No more pictures?
14:52 shapr castaway: Yup, but at certain extremes it does not fit into today's society.
14:53 * stevan likes his ADD, and dislikes ritalin
14:53 shapr I love Ritalin. I can keep a job now!
14:53 shapr Heck I have my own company now.
14:53 Juerd shapr: You don't mind that it does things to your thought stream?
14:53 stevan shapr: so many of my coworkers have ADD, so ti works well for me
14:53 shapr Juerd: Yes I do mind. But the natural me does not function in this society.
14:54 Juerd shapr: I have my own company too. Doesn't mean I'm having work :)
14:54 castaway Juerd: aeh, no all done, thanksverymuch!
14:54 stevan mind-altering drugs ++ :)
14:54 Juerd castaway: You're welcome
14:54 Juerd shapr: Natural me has trouble too, but so far manages
14:54 stevan functioning-in-society--
14:54 castaway bah, drugs--
14:54 castaway making society fit oneself, better .)
14:55 wolverian work--
14:55 shapr The point of drugs like Ritalin is to allow the user to build up habits that solve the problem so that you can (hopefully) not need the drugs at some point.
14:55 stevan castaway++
14:55 castaway sounds like a bad theory
14:55 shapr I dunno. Some parts of it are true for me.
14:56 stevan shapr: my worries with Ritalin was always that its really just high-grade speed
14:56 shapr It's not. I've had amphetamines too, and they are a 'dirty stimulant'. The side effects sucked.
14:56 stevan speed is really bad for your heart (among other organs)
14:56 shapr Ritalin specifically stimulates the focus parts of the brain.
14:56 Juerd As if ritalin has no side effects.
14:57 * castaway tries to remember where this tied in with male brains :)
14:57 shapr Ritalin has almost zero side effects for me. The only one of any importance is that I get nervous in social situations.
14:57 stevan shapr: you are likely immune to the side effects now
14:57 shapr castaway: you were talking about focus oriented male brains. I use full-screen-only ion3 and I am *not* focussed.
14:57 castaway ah, gotcha
14:57 Juerd http://foto.juerd.nl/office.jpg
14:57 Juerd Last picture for now :)
14:58 shapr stevan: Could be. I started taking Ritalin four years ago.
14:58 shapr oh, I want to post a picture! It's me! http://www.scannedinavian.com/images/uni-hop.jpg
14:59 shapr Right so, how can lambdafolk contribute to Pugs?
14:59 Juerd Your bicycle is broken.
14:59 shapr Juerd: Now two people can use my bicycle at the same time!
14:59 * castaway grins
15:00 castaway shapr, can I clarify that, are the *Apps* fullscreen in ion3 ?
15:00 hattmoward I think you've got a penguin infestation, son.
15:00 Juerd castaway: Windows can't overlap in ion
15:00 Juerd (not by default that is)
15:00 castaway Oh
15:00 Juerd castaway: So they fill up to preformatted shapes, by default: full screen
15:00 shapr castaway: http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/ecb.png
15:00 Juerd shapr: Ew, big terminal.
15:01 Juerd I like to have 6 terminals on screen when I'm programming
15:01 Juerd It saves you a lot of brain context switches.
15:01 shapr I have eshell.
15:01 Juerd What be that?
15:01 wolverian ew, emacs. :)
15:01 Juerd EEEEEEEEwwwwwmacs.
15:02 * hattmoward keeps two terminals connected to the same screen session
15:02 shapr emacs shell. M-s pops up eshell into the same directory as the file I'm seeing. And I can use buffers like files on the command line in shell. So I get to pipe in and out of buffers.
15:02 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:02 Juerd Oh, when I said 6 terminals, note that three of them are remote ssh sessions with screen running
15:02 shapr Haven't you ever wished files you're editing were directly addressable from the command line?
15:02 * stevan regularly has 6 terminal windows too, of which 3 are SSH
15:03 Juerd stevan++ :)
15:03 stevan and at least one is Pugs :)
15:03 stevan one for dev server, one for staging server and one for prod server
15:04 shapr emacs can also edit over one or more of ssh, su, sudo, scp, etc. So I need ssh less.
15:04 castaway Juerd: thats what we were talking about :)
15:04 Juerd I'm going to tidy this place a little and then drive home
15:04 * castaway pounces on hatt
15:04 Juerd castaway: We were? What exactly?
15:04 hattmoward no!
15:04 Corion_ has joined #perl6
15:04 Corion_ is now known as Corion
15:04 castaway multiple thingys on the screen ,)
15:04 Juerd castaway: Does that make my brain female then?
15:04 castaway IMO, yup
15:04 shapr Ich veiss nicht!
15:04 shapr Ich habe keine ahnung!
15:04 Juerd Aren't "male" and "female" terribly wrong then?
15:05 * stevan also has IRC, iTunes and iCHa
15:05 Juerd shapr: weiss, Ahnung.
15:05 shapr whoops, thanks.
15:05 shapr Anyway, how can lambdafolk contribute to the Revolution? Is there a lambdafaq?
15:05 castaway Juerd: depends on the context..
15:05 castaway whats a lamdafolk?
15:05 stevan castaway: how is it that a female brain is better at multi-tasking?
15:05 Juerd castaway: Restricted greeks.
15:06 shapr Juerd: only if camelfolk count as that too :-)
15:06 stevan shapr: I have a list of things I would like implemented :) if you are looking for something to do
15:06 castaway stevan, the theory (ages old) goes, that men were out hunting (as cave people this is), and thus had to fully concentrate, to avoid getting hunted themselves..
15:06 stevan hmmm
15:06 castaway While women gathered, looked after kids, cooked, make clothing etc.
15:07 shapr stevan: Tell me more. No promises as to what I can do though.
15:07 Juerd shapr: camelfolks are kamlotaur :)
15:07 shapr So women were forced to multitask?
15:07 stevan castaway: ok, that makes sense,... however I blame it less on my "female"-ness and more on my ADD
15:07 hattmoward castaway: I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. ;)
15:07 * shapr grins
15:07 Corion Grrr. lightstep broke my pugsrun tests while refactoring the code :(
15:07 stevan shapr: I commited some test for basic builtins yesterday
15:08 shapr "Messages in A Bottle" - Castaway's Writings.
15:08 stevan hex(), chr(), ord(), and some math functions
15:08 Juerd castaway: But women can't drive and I can. How does that work?
15:08 Juerd :)
15:08 castaway Right.. but lately, the theory is less that these functionalities (?) are bodily oriented, just more brain oriented, that a "female" brain has more connections between the 2 halves
15:08 * castaway drives Juerd off a cliff, just to prove
15:08 stevan castaway: I will buy that one
15:09 castaway shapr++
15:09 shapr castaway: Does ambidexterity count?
15:09 shapr I tend to switch primary hands every coupla years for entertainment purposes.
15:09 castaway shapr, I hadnt taken that into account.. but it sounds female-brained to me
15:09 * stevan went to school for fine-arts painting and ended up a programmer
15:09 castaway funky
15:09 Juerd castaway: But autism is said to be related to having *less* connections between brainhalves
15:09 xerox shapr: how do you use buffer like files in pipes?
15:09 Juerd castaway: This could explain why more men are autistic, in the context of what you said
15:09 stevan shapr: I am starting to think Ritalin is a good thing for you  :)
15:09 Juerd castaway: But it'd make me a very weird person.
15:09 shapr xerox: sure.
15:09 castaway Juerd: yup.. which is why autistics are not good at most things, just the one, no?
15:10 shapr stevan: I know it is!
15:10 castaway people are weird, theres no getting around that
15:10 shapr stevan: Where are you? Maybe I can drop by one day and meet you.
15:10 shapr I like to meet ADD people. They're always interesting.
15:10 * castaway taught herself to write lefthanded, just because :)
15:10 shapr Have you tried left-footed writing?
15:10 stevan shapr: Eastern US, Connecticut
15:11 Corion Writing upside-down/right-to-left is a fun exercise too (that is, 180° rotated)
15:11 shapr I can type on my kinesis with my feet, except for the fact that my largest toe *really* gets in the way.
15:11 Juerd I can type with my feet
15:11 * stevan just uses telekenisis
15:11 Juerd But I never hit the keys I want to.
15:11 shapr I can also take my glasses off with my feet, but I end up with toeprints on the lenses.
15:11 stevan Juerd++
15:12 shapr stevan: mah roots is Birminhayum, so I dunno if I'll get up that way anytime soon.
15:12 castaway Juerd++
15:12 castaway shapr, I never got far with my feet, odd that
15:13 stevan shapr: Birminhayum?
15:13 shapr Birmingham, Alabama
15:13 castaway taking glasses off is easier
15:13 clkao_ is now known as clkao
15:14 stevan shapr: ahh, I've been to Mobile, but never Birmingham
15:14 mkirank has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0/20041107]")
15:15 Juerd Who wants to buy a crappy colour laser printer?
15:15 Juerd EUR 350
15:15 co2 has joined #perl6
15:15 stevan Juerd: you might want to improve your sales pitch :)
15:16 Juerd It's brand new.
15:16 Juerd And does duplex printing
15:16 stevan unless 'crappy' means 'really nice' in Dutch
15:16 * shapr snickers
15:16 shapr lekker == lexer? =)
15:16 Juerd stevan: No, the print quality really is subprofessional :)
15:16 shapr ik begrijp het niet!
15:16 Juerd shapr: lekker == tasting good
15:16 Juerd shapr: DAN HEB JE PECH
15:16 * shapr snickers
15:17 * Juerd m&m's
15:18 * hattmoward mr. goodbar...  s
15:18 Juerd heh.
15:19 * stevan winegums
15:20 * castaway pokes hatt
15:21 hattmoward hmm?
15:21 hlafarge has quit IRC ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Realia'")
15:21 jabbot pugs - 1373 - * even more speculative work on IMC comp
15:22 castaway rejoin #pm, silly :)
15:22 hattmoward yah, scott let me know
15:22 hattmoward wasn't paying attention
15:23 * shapr sings "I'll send an SMS to the world"
15:24 hattmoward heheh
15:25 castaway tsktsk
15:25 * castaway grins
15:25 * castaway has no mobile phone
15:27 Juerd Are you proud of not having a mobile phone?
15:28 castaway yup
15:30 shapr stevan: it seems the darcs repo hasn't been updated since day before yesterday, that's why I can't find your changes.
15:31 Corion BTW, does the current build still build/test/work for anybody ? I think it must be broken due to the borked argument parsing ...
15:31 stevan shapr: try svn
15:31 shapr I think I'll just wait...
15:33 Corion Ah - no, some stuff still works (but -l doesn't I think)
15:34 stevan shapr: so do you do Haskell at work?
15:34 shapr Some, yes.
15:34 shapr Mostly I do Python at work.
15:35 Juerd Where do you work?
15:35 shapr In my bed!
15:35 Juerd You mostly do Python in bed?
15:35 Juerd That's scary.
15:35 shapr Seriously though, I have two companies, one which is just me, and one which is I half own with my fiancee.
15:36 Juerd I know what working in bed is like
15:36 Juerd I do that too sometimes
15:36 Juerd But not Python! :)
15:36 * shapr is afraid to ask.
15:36 Juerd Afraid to ask what?
15:36 Juerd (heh)
15:36 shapr Nothing to ask here, move along folks.
15:36 Juerd No, ask
15:36 stevan shapr: what kind of work do your do?
15:36 shapr stevan: if it's geeky work, I'll take money to do it.
15:36 Juerd stevan: My guess is that he's mostly a Python programmer.
15:37 Juerd shapr: What about nerdy work then?
15:37 shapr I dunno the difference.
15:37 shapr I mostly do webdev in Zope/Plone the last year or two.
15:37 autrijus try darcs again
15:37 shapr yay
15:37 autrijus is it synced?
15:37 autrijus error was "argument lists too long"
15:37 shapr I dunno, but if you ask me to try it's likely.
15:37 autrijus the buffer overflow for the shells
15:37 PerlJam shapr: you mean you don't code scheme for a living?  ;)
15:38 shapr PerlJam: I scheme to code for a living, does that count?
15:38 PerlJam :-)
15:38 autrijus be glad you don't code schema for a living :
15:38 autrijus :)
15:38 * shapr laughs
15:38 Juerd shapr: Enough can be found with Google about the difference.
15:38 * Juerd is both :)
15:38 shapr I did some XSLT work recently, it was painful.
15:38 Juerd shapr: What was that question now?
15:38 shapr Ich habe keine Ahnung!
15:38 shapr Ik veit het niet!
15:38 Juerd weet
15:39 shapr thanks
15:39 castaway It ws "which work did you do from bed"
15:39 castaway ,)
15:39 Juerd Du hast wohl eine Ahnung en je weet 't wel!
15:39 shapr Jag har ingen aning!
15:39 * castaway hat aber auch keine Ahnung
15:39 * shapr wonders if Juerd speaks any Swedish...
15:39 Juerd (This opposite of "not" is something I really, really miss in English.)
15:40 shapr You can say "You do so have a suspicion."
15:40 Juerd shapr: nej
15:40 shapr But you're right, such a thing is rarely used in English.
15:41 Juerd shapr: Jag inte alls talar Svenska
15:41 jabbot pugs - 1374 - Added examples/obfu/snowing.p6 -- first
15:41 shapr Och kan jag inte tala Svenska heller.
15:42 Juerd Vad tråkigt...
15:43 xerox ö
15:43 Juerd xerox: My terminal doesn't do utf-8
15:43 xerox It was a smiley :P
15:43 shapr tyvärr
15:44 Corion I need some Haskell help - the ArgParse.h does not parse C<-I foo> anymore since the ADT rewrite, and I don't know how to coax the Haskell except some ugly postprocessing :)
15:44 Juerd shapr: What's the 4th character?
15:45 Juerd shapr: ä?
15:45 Juerd &auml;
15:45 shapr tyv&auml;rr
15:45 shapr c'est 'quelle dommage' en suédois.
15:45 autrijus gatherargs?
15:45 autrijus Corion: line 93
15:45 autrijus gatherArgs("-I":dir:rest)         = [Opt "-I" dir] ++ gatherArgs(rest)
15:45 rgs 'quel dommage', even
15:46 shapr rgs: merci :-)
15:46 shapr stevan: aha, the naturalOrRat code?
15:46 Corion autrijus: That line already exists in my source ...
15:46 tmoertel has joined #perl6
15:46 autrijus add a (('-':'I':dir):rest) form?
15:47 stevan shapr: no I added the t/builtins/hex.t,ord.t, chr.t and the t/builtins/math/* tests
15:47 Corion autrijus: According to my printouts, the parsing already messes things up by allowing "-I" if not followed by a value to become "-I" "", which is wrong.
15:47 autrijus oh ok.
15:47 Corion autrijus: I didn't rework it to become like it is now, I just want to fix my test cases anymore :)
15:47 Juerd shapr: comment pensez-vous que je ne pouvait deviner ca? ;)
15:47 Juerd +pas
15:47 Corion autrijus: err - s!anymore!!
15:47 autrijus Corion: I see. talk to lightstep? :)
15:47 * shapr looks up deviner...
15:48 autrijus I can take a look it after my journaling too
15:48 Corion autrijus: If lightstep were here, I'd ask/explain/point out the failing tests :)
15:48 shapr Of course, 'to divine'
15:48 Corion autrijus: maybe I'll find somebody who explains it while you
15:48 Corion ... you're journaling :)
15:48 Juerd shapr: kaj kiel paroladas ni fremdlingve? :)
15:49 autrijus Corion: shapr here is also a skilled lambdafolk :)
15:49 shapr minä en puhu norska!
15:49 Corion autrijus: :)
15:49 shapr Juerd: Is that norsk?
15:49 autrijus shapr: so is the darcs repo uptodate?
15:49 shapr Corion: though I claim tmoertel is more skilled than me in both lambda and camel worlds.
15:50 wolverian shapr: en minäkään. :)
15:50 Juerd shapr: I have no idea. Jeg snakker ikke norsk.
15:50 Corion shapr: I don't mind - I'm not really skilled in making Haskells pattern matching work for me :)
15:50 shapr autrijus: datewise it seems so, but it might not be, I can't find hex.t / ord.t / chr.t
15:51 autrijus t/builtins/hex.t ?
15:51 shapr I haven't got one.
15:51 * shapr pulls again
15:51 jabbot pugs - 1375 - Missing keywords
15:51 shapr Nope
15:52 * Corion got hex.t
15:52 Corion r1375
15:52 * stevan has it too (but I wrote it, so ....)
15:52 shapr wolverian: kiitos
15:52 Juerd I'm going home now
15:52 wolverian shapr: ole hyvä.
15:52 Juerd Gxis revidoj!
15:52 Corion shapr: You got a moment / inclination to look into the command line parser ArgParse.hs ?
15:52 wolverian Juerd: bye.
15:53 * shapr looks
15:53 co2 has quit IRC ("bye")
15:54 Corion shapr: The problem in parsing is, that -I and -e can be given in two variants, -Ifoo and -I foo. The parser currently only allows/thinks of the first variant, and gives an empty string plus a separate (wrong) argument in the second case.
15:54 Corion "How to fix that?"
15:54 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
15:55 clkao has joined #perl6
15:59 shapr Which tests work on this?
15:59 autrijus shapr: try again?
15:59 * shapr pulls
15:59 autrijus I _think_ it's fixed
15:59 autrijus for real thi
15:59 autrijus s time
15:59 stevan shapr: none :) hex(), ord() and chr() are not yet implemented
16:00 shapr what about the -I arg? It has tests?
16:00 autrijus oh. I'll also be happier if ArgParse.hs
16:00 autrijus can be renamed into Main/Args.hs or Run/Args.hs etc.
16:00 shapr autrijus: yay! I have {hex,ord,chr}.t !
16:00 autrijus but it's not a priority :)
16:00 autrijus shapr: yay!
16:00 shapr thanks!
16:01 xerox Be back later, enjoy pugs hacking shapr ;)
16:01 shapr :-)
16:01 shapr Corion: Is there a test for -Idir ?
16:01 xerox has quit IRC ("bbl")
16:01 Corion shapr: pugsrun/01-dash-uppercase-i.t
16:02 Corion shapr: (tests both, -Idir and -I dir)
16:02 shapr spiffy
16:02 shapr er, and what the command to run just one test again? :-/
16:02 autrijus make
16:02 autrijus preferably make install
16:02 Corion shapr: I wouldn't care for -I dir, but theorbtwo uses it and Perl supports it too :)
16:02 autrijus then ./pugs t/pugsrun/01-dash-uppercase-i.t
16:02 gcom has joined #perl6
16:03 autrijus alternatively, if -I is working
16:03 Corion shapr: I use nmake && pugs -Iblib6\lib -w t\pugsrun\01-dash-uppercase-i.t
16:03 autrijus then what corion said.
16:03 Corion shapr: You might need to adjust the make tool and the path_sep variable :)
16:03 autrijus it doesn't help a lot if -I is broken :D
16:03 Corion autrijus: Luckily, -Ifoo is not (yet) broken ;)
16:03 autrijus very lucky.
16:04 Corion We should get to a zero-bug state soonish so one quickly sees if a change broke something...
16:04 shapr I have a package hiding problem with ghc 6.4, is that known?
16:04 Corion ... but that conflicts with the goal of having parsebug tests
16:05 Corion Maybe a watcher "you broke more tests than when you checked out" would help :)
16:05 autrijus shapr: hm?
16:05 shapr Main.hs wants Posix, which is masked by default in ghc 6.4, but ghc-pkg expose posix-1.0 gives me a different compile error.
16:06 autrijus oh wow. no. hrm.
16:06 shapr specifically src/Internals.hs:21:4: \n Conflicting exports for `createDirectory': \n `module Posix' exports `System.Posix.Directory.createDirectory' imported from Posix at src/Internals.hs:66:0-11 \n `module System.Directory' exports `System.Directory.createDirectory' imported from System.Directory at src/Internals.hs:83:0-22
16:06 autrijus I wonder why it does owrk for me.
16:06 shapr That's after ghc-pkg expose posix-1.0
16:06 autrijus try using a ifdef hack to work it around?
16:07 * shapr tries
16:08 shapr Which createDirectory should be exported from Internals? Sys.Dir or Posix?
16:10 * shapr hides createDirectory and removeDirectory from Posix
16:11 autrijus yup.
16:11 jabbot pugs - 1376 -  r4722@hcchien:  hcchien | 2005-04-01 00
16:11 autrijus I think Sys is correct.
16:11 kcwu what is the difference between "is(eval'foo')" and "eval_is('foo')"? pugs will terminate with former, not in latter
16:12 autrijus weeird.
16:12 autrijus there should be no diff.
16:13 kcwu t/data_types/anon_block.t line 50
16:13 kcwu is(eval'$pointy_block_nested(5)(6)', 11, '-> $a { -> $b { $a+$b }} nested <"pointy" block> works'); will termiate
16:13 Corion Yay. I fixed it through voodoo. Fascinating.
16:14 autrijus haskell voodoo is fascinating. :)
16:15 stevan kcwu: eval_is just wraps it inside the eval, which will prevent pugs from dieing
16:15 autrijus kcwu: ooh...write a meta-test? :)
16:15 kcwu or because haskell lazy?
16:15 Corion autrijus: Yes.
16:16 Corion Grrr. And lightstep even removed (Perl code generating) functionality :(
16:18 autrijus you can easily revert them back :)
16:18 autrijus by some more voodoo, I presume
16:18 Corion autrijus: No, because lightstep made the code much more Haskellish, which is what I wanted. But I wrote the tests, so the features I wanted stay :)
16:18 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:19 Corion (as my Haskell is not good, I see more value in my tests than in the Haskell that I write :))
16:19 autrijus sure :)
16:21 Corion BTW, are BEGIN blocks in already ?
16:21 autrijus no the are not, sadly.
16:21 autrijus I really need to finish this metacompiler.
16:22 Corion autrijus: No worries - BEGIN would be nice, so -l works (by s!-l!-e "BEGIN{ magic }"!), but not important :)
16:22 autrijus http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/obfu/snowing.p6
16:22 autrijus asavige is at it again
16:25 Juerd This car is going to kill me soon.
16:25 Juerd On the way home it stopped functioning twice. In 10 km.
16:25 shapr You could get a unicycle.
16:26 Juerd And goddamn, suddenly losing power steering IN A CORNER sucks.
16:26 autrijus shapr always mentions unicycles at any given chance :)
16:26 * shapr laughs
16:26 kcwu hmm, I think t/pugsbugs/syntax_crashes.t is about that. # < autrijus> kcwu: ooh...write a meta-test? :)
16:27 autrijus kcwu: ah. ok
16:31 ihb since has $.foo = { ...; }; is overloaded to execute at object initialization, is there any other way to create a class attribute that should hold a closure than to wrap the closure in another closure so that the wanted closure is returned at object initialization? (i realize that wasn't exactly crystal clear)
16:31 jabbot pugs - 1378 - tests floating numbers and return types
16:31 jabbot pugs - 1377 - change fail() with eval_is()
16:31 autrijus sub {}
16:31 autrijus maybe?
16:32 ihb autrijus: won't sub {} also create a closure?
16:32 autrijus I'm not terribly sure of that.
16:32 ihb hmm, btw, exactly what does "pseudo-assignment" mean? (http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S12.html -- Attributes, 6th paragraph)
16:33 ihb perhaps i misinterpreted that paragraph when i first read it.
16:33 ihb i've never heard of pseudo-assignments before.
16:34 * autrijus points ihb to p6l :-/
16:35 ihb ok.
16:35 clkao has joined #perl6
16:36 Corion Heh. I think I fixed the argument parsing :)
16:36 ihb a hopefully simpler question: what's the difference between has and my/our?
16:37 Jouke has joined #perl6
16:37 stevan anyone ever use a hosted SVN server? for work (pseudo-closed source) code?
16:37 autrijus ihb: has is instance prop, my/our is class?
16:37 autrijus uh, not me, my work uses openfoundry
16:38 Corion stevan: I use locally an svn server which I connect to via ssh, but that's the only solution I know via server side
16:38 stevan Corion: that is what we do now, but we are looking to be more "virtual" (aka, get rid of the office)
16:38 ihb that's my guess too, but i don't find it clear from S12.
16:38 Juerd shapr: unicycles do not go 100 km/h
16:38 Corion stevan: Ah, but I'd still keep the svn server hidden behind an ssh tunnel
16:39 Corion stevan: (that is, you should run your own server, or at least have some shell accounts on some server)
16:39 shapr Juerd: sounds like your car doesn't either =)
16:39 Juerd It does
16:39 Juerd At that speed, it doesn't fail.
16:39 stevan Corion: there are a number of SVN hosts out there which offer secure access cvsdude.org is one
16:39 Juerd It's below 30 km/h that it's unreliable
16:39 stevan Juerd: so drive him faster
16:40 Juerd That's why this keeps happening in corners
16:40 Juerd Can't take these any faster.
16:40 Corion stevan: Hmmm - interesting... I still believe in self-hosting/administering, but that takes time, true
16:40 Juerd stevan: it...
16:40 stevan Corion: usually I do too, but without a central location, its hard
16:40 stevan s/him/home/
16:40 Corion stevan: Why is the location a problem ? I rented a machine in some data center
16:41 Corion stevan: I could offer you shell access there, for a miniscule fee :))))
16:41 shapr Juerd: do you have a carbeurator or fuel injection?
16:41 Juerd shapr: Yes
16:41 Juerd But not when driving on LPG
16:41 stevan Corion: that is the other idea, but I thought I would explore the other options first
16:41 Juerd And it happens on gas too
16:42 * stevan would like to not have to be SVN admin anymore
16:42 * stevan needs more interns to do the monkey work
16:42 Corion stevan: Having a machine on the 'net is some hassle. Pair seem to do good managed hosting, but you don't get to be root on the machine.
16:42 Corion stevan: What's so wrong with ssh tunnels into the (managed) machine?
16:42 Corion stevan: (other than you staying the svn monkey)
16:43 Juerd shapr: Oh, you probably wanted to know which one of the two. Injection.
16:43 stevan Corion: nothing, other than the monkey bit :)
16:43 shapr Juerd: If you have a carbeurator, you may need to clean the fuel lines or the exit ports.
16:43 Juerd shapr: But LPG isn't directly injected.
16:43 shapr Oh, then I don't need to explain to you how Venturi relates to carbeurators.
16:44 Juerd shapr: Injectors, spark plugs, valve lid, gasoline pump, gasoline, oil, coolant, PAM sensor, lambda sensor all have already been replaced.
16:44 shapr What's LPG? better gas mileage? and how do you have indirect fuel injection?
16:44 Juerd Even the screen wiper fluid has been replaced :)
16:44 ihb what happens if you do "class Foo { sub foo { ... } { my $.foo; } { my $.foo; } }" (i assume you can do things like "class Foo { method foo { ... } print 'foo'; method bar { ... } }" in Perl 6)
16:44 Juerd shapr: LPG is liquid gas.
16:45 Juerd shapr: GPL in french, autogas in some languages
16:45 shapr Your car runs on butane or something?
16:45 Juerd No, LPG :)
16:45 * shapr asks google
16:45 Juerd It's a mixture of butane and propare IIRC
16:45 Juerd propaNe
16:45 shapr That's amazing.
16:46 Juerd It's much cheaper than gasoline.
16:46 shapr That is one sort of car I have never worked on!
16:46 Juerd 45 cents instead of EUR 1.27 per liter
16:46 Juerd You get only 1:10 out of it instead of 1:12 (with my car)
16:46 Juerd But that's certainly still worth it :)
16:47 Juerd bbl  # dinner
16:47 shapr Internal combustion is at best inefficient with changing demand.
16:47 shapr Aaaanyway...
16:47 lightstep has joined #perl6
16:49 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:49 lightstep hello. i saw myself on the journal, can i help?
16:49 autrijus yes you can.
16:49 * lightstep figured he broke ArgParse
16:49 autrijus Corion: lightstep comes!
16:49 Corion autrijus: :)
16:50 Corion lightstep: I think I fixed most of it already, but I'm hunting down some failures still :)
16:50 lightstep cool
16:50 Corion bare "-" for example ("read from stdin")
16:50 Corion lightstep: But other than breaking my tests, you did exactly what I had in mind :))))
16:50 Corion lightstep: ... although I don't understand the complete stuff yet, it looks far more Haskellish :)
16:50 lightstep bare "-" should be where "--" and detecting file names is
16:51 lightstep that is, in unpackOptions
16:51 * lightstep is nowhere near the precious homedir with the local image
16:52 Corion lightstep: Yeah ...
16:52 lightstep oh, and findArg should have `guard (not (null param))' in the middle, so `-e expr' will work
16:53 lightstep and -l is broken, since it was broken anyway, and i didn't know what to do with it
16:54 Corion lightstep: Interesting method - I fudged it by replacing all empty args with the next File. But yes, your way sounds better, and I should add a test that prevents -e "" foo from getting parsed wrongly
16:54 Corion lightstep: What was broken about -l ?
16:54 shapr autrijus: are you using ghc 6.4?
16:54 autrijus shapr: yes I am.
16:54 autrijus on fbsd and win32
16:55 shapr Weird, I'm getting several errors.
16:55 lightstep it didn't work for me, and the code looked as if it wouldn't work (it expanded to "-e" with comments)
16:55 justatheory has joined #perl6
16:55 autrijus let me check out darcs to see if it's darcs prob
16:55 lightstep and the code can be prettier: '-':x:[] = ['-',x]. i don't know why i forgot about it in the first place
16:55 Corion lightstep: That's the idea - -l in Perl5 would be -e "BEGIN{ magic }"
16:56 shapr autrijus: oh, I think I just hid the wrong createDirectory, doh
16:57 shapr Oh, I guess not.
16:57 shapr Where's the svn repo?
16:58 lightstep you can make "-l" work as a special case in Main and Run, or convert it in procArg, or convert it when finding it
16:58 shapr Mentioned on the homepage maybe? too easy!
16:59 autrijus hrm, the network here is dying
16:59 autrijus I may have to drop soon. please keep feeding the puppy :)
16:59 * shapr grins
16:59 shapr autrijus: I'll figure it out.
16:59 autrijus danke!
16:59 autrijus &
17:00 Corion lightstep: Yep - I put it in gatherArgs currently
17:01 castaway puppy??
17:01 Corion castaway: Small dog.
17:01 * castaway sneaks off with the puppy
17:01 Corion castaway: Small dog.
17:01 Corion Oops - wrong window
17:02 shapr castaway: http://pugscode.org/images/pugs.small.png
17:02 shapr Happy Puppy!
17:02 castaway cute!
17:04 autrijus shapr: for what its worth, darcs fresh checkout builds just fine on fbsd 5.3 with ghc 6.4.
17:04 autrijus [not|autrijus]~/work/pugs_0$ ghc --version
17:04 autrijus The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.4
17:04 lightstep Corion, how did you figure foldl out without learning the haskell libraries?
17:04 Corion lightstep: ??? I read some of Prelude
17:05 autrijus lightstep: by being exceedingly smart? :)
17:05 Corion lightstep: And I know foldl under the name of "reduce" :)
17:05 Corion autrijus: I'm not smart :)
17:05 Corion ... but I hide the consequences of most of my mistakes very well !
17:05 lightstep wow. usually, people learn to use the procedures before the combinators. maybe you're like bird
17:06 Corion lightstep: Functional programming (except the types) isn't that foreign a concept to me. Perl has it in some ways too.
17:06 autrijus it's just you have to pay a very heavy language tax in perl to use them :)
17:06 autrijus up to 70%, in some of Higher Order Perl examples
17:06 Corion (and Monads are foreign to me as well; I think I understand what they are for, but haven't grasped them really)
17:07 autrijus but yeah, pretty much all advanced perl module authors know some functional stuff, I think.
17:07 Corion autrijus: HOP hasn't come out here yet :( It's a sure buy for me, even though I've read many chapters already :)
17:07 autrijus it's great to have a deadtree version :D
17:07 Corion autrijus: indeed
17:08 theorbtwo autrijus: Take a job translating it, and get paid to have a deadtree version!
17:08 Corion Mmmmm. Translating HOP to German would be a nice idea. Except that I doubt there'll be a market here ;(
17:09 rgs HOP.
17:09 autrijus uh, I already have a dead tree version as a gift :)
17:09 theorbtwo That, and you aren't an experinced translator.
17:09 theorbtwo http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:10 theorbtwo Somehow I read a Corion line as a autrijus line.
17:10 Corion jabbot: HOP is at http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:10 jabbot Corion: °O¦í¤F
17:10 Corion jabbot: HOP also is Higher Order Perl
17:10 jabbot Corion: ­ì¨Ó¦p¦¹ªü¡I
17:10 autrijus jabbot: hop?
17:10 jabbot autrijus: That is interesting. Please continue.
17:10 Corion ... I hope the responses are not insults ...
17:11 Corion jabbot: HOP ?
17:11 jabbot Corion: HOP is at http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:11 autrijus jabbot: HOP?
17:11 jabbot autrijus: HOP is at http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:11 clkao has joined #perl6
17:11 theorbtwo They don't appear to be valid utf8 at all.
17:11 Corion theorbtwo: I wondered why ChatZilla wasn't displaying anything worthwhile...
17:11 autrijus Corion: no; they are "gotcha" and "ach so!" respectively, in traditional chinese, in big5.
17:11 * shapr too
17:11 shapr haha
17:12 Corion autrijus: Ah :) ChatZilla didn't render them as chinese glyphs though ...
17:12 lightstep jabbot, higher order perl?
17:12 jabbot lightstep: Please go on.
17:13 Corion jabbot: higher order perl is HOP
17:13 jabbot Corion: hmm
17:13 Corion :-)))
17:13 Corion jabbot: higher order perl?
17:13 jabbot Corion: higher order perl is HOP
17:13 Corion jabbot: HOP?
17:13 jabbot Corion: HOP is at http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:13 Corion :)
17:14 * Corion reminiscences the Good Ol' Times with his infobot
17:14 theorbtwo jabbot: HOP is also higher order perl
17:14 jabbot theorbtwo: ­ì¨Ó¦p¦¹ªü¡I
17:15 theorbtwo jabbot: higher order perl is also at http://perl.plover.com/hop/
17:15 jabbot theorbtwo: ok
17:15 Corion Hah. Fixed.
17:17 theorbtwo BTW, autrijus, I'm curious: Do books get translated into both trad and simp, or only one, and if both, do you do both at once, or sepperately?
17:18 * Corion thinks that jabbot should chatter whenever it feels a question goes unanswered :)
17:19 castaway eep
17:19 Corion castaway: I ran such a bot - it had a delay of 3s or something, and if nobody seemed to answer the question, it pulled its own answer.
17:19 Corion castaway: 'twas fun :)
17:20 Corion (provided it had an answer)
17:20 Corion Otherwise it only spoke when directly addressed
17:20 Corion Heh. Seems like my fixes didn't break anything else in a spectacular way :)
17:22 castaway hmm
17:22 * castaway looks for a website where complex flights are bookable.. ie A->B->C->A
17:23 Corion castaway: Castorbaway World Tour 2005 ? :)
17:23 Corion castaway: But I think Opodo offers that...
17:24 castaway something simliar
17:25 castaway hmm, www.qixo.com was actually nifty (for normal flights), until it failed to come up with one-way ones
17:25 Corion Does 224/3842 failures sound sane for r1378 ?
17:26 * Corion commits anyway
17:27 Corion Ooooo - ChatZilla is really nice - I can just click into the topic and edit it in-place!
17:27 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | Auto-smoke: http://kungfuftr.com/pugs-smoke.html | win2k:r1378(224/3842) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1342(189/3478)
17:27 Khisanth old news!
17:28 Corion That's a funky interface :)
17:28 Corion Khisanth: But new to me ;)
17:28 * Khisanth doesn't use chatzilla
17:31 jabbot pugs - 1379 - Command line parsing fixes
17:36 lightstep has quit IRC ()
17:42 theorbtwo When you're editing things and want to make sure you don't create new bugs, save around a tests.yml from before, and diff -u with the one after.
17:45 Corion theorbtwo: Aaaah - that's a great idea! I forgot about the tests.yml, thanks!
17:47 shapr has quit IRC ("reboot")
17:49 Khisanth hrm those numbers are for how many tests are passing?
17:55 theorbtwo The ones in the /topic?  How many are /failing/.
17:56 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:57 Corion pass, fail - where is the difference?
17:58 theorbtwo One shows red, the other green?
17:58 theorbtwo It's very christmasy, really...
17:59 theorbtwo Reminds me, somebody wanted to ci updates to testgraph, but didn't?
17:59 Corion Hmmm. Should while(=<>) { ... } work ? Because I get "Fail: <stdin>: hGetLine: end of file"
17:59 theorbtwo Also, kungfuftr, if you're around, you should check in your testgraph.css, it looks quite nice.
17:59 theorbtwo I think you want foreach (), but it should work.
17:59 theorbtwo Er, for.
17:59 Khisanth I mean the ones for the three different platforms
18:00 Corion theorbtwo: Ah, yes :)
18:00 theorbtwo It should parse, though.
18:00 theorbtwo Run, even.
18:00 Corion The error is gone, but it doesn't read anything :)
18:00 theorbtwo It just won't assign the line you read anywhere.
18:01 Corion theorbtwo: Ah - then I'll do a TODO test with that :)
18:01 Corion I've implemented -p and -n then, but I'll make the tests TODO, until for (=<>) is implemented
18:02 Khisanth about =<>, is it suppose to work?
18:03 Corion Khisanth: No, seems like not yet
18:03 clkao has joined #perl6
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18:04 Khisanth oh ok, I was just trying autrijus' slides the other day
18:04 Corion Ah - my tests are TODO already anyway :)
18:05 Corion theorbtwo: How do I generate the yml ?
18:05 * Corion goes looking at the HTML generator
18:06 theorbtwo export HARNESS_PERL=/usr/src/pugs/pugs; perl util/yaml_harness.pl
18:06 Corion theorbtwo: Thanks! :)
18:06 Juerd re
18:07 theorbtwo nothingmuch, did you take a look at my changes to catalog_tests.pl?
18:07 theorbtwo (Note the lack of .jmm.; I rm'd the other one and mv'd the .jmm. in it's place, since the other one was unmaintainted.)
18:07 Corion Eh - I get lots of "Couldn't match line" ... Does that mean it has problems with DOS line endings ?
18:08 kungfuftr theorbtwo: the css is checked in now
18:09 Corion Or are there any prereqs that I don't meet ? Like, Test::Harness version?
18:09 kungfuftr bbiab - hometime
18:09 theorbtwo No, that means poorly written regexes.
18:09 theorbtwo I think.
18:10 Corion theorbtwo: Hmmm - doesn't look like my test output would ever match the regex - it scans for /<pos:/ and I've never seen that in test output
18:10 theorbtwo Oh.
18:11 theorbtwo I was thinking of some place completely different.
18:11 Corion theorbtwo: That's the only place in the source where I see "Couldn't match line" ...
18:11 * castaway thunk someone sed earlier, that a newish/er Test::Harness wu a requirymento
18:11 * castaway wonders if irssi has 'search in buffer'
18:11 Corion Ah - I'll upgrade Test::Harness and see what happens
18:12 * theorbtwo wonders where castaway's spanish kick came from.
18:12 Corion castaway: BTW, I took the plunge and will move my DSL to 1&1
18:12 Corion castaway: So in a few weeks, you'll know if you can safely move over :)
18:13 castaway ;)
18:13 castaway spanish, moi?
18:13 Corion Still the same failures, even though I have Test::Harness v2.46 now
18:15 cwest has joined #perl6
18:15 theorbtwo Hm.
18:16 Corion theorbtwo: I can paste the output, but I'll poke the script a bit (after committing)
18:16 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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18:16 crysflame hi, cwest
18:16 cwest Hi
18:16 theorbtwo Pasting the output would be nice.
18:16 crysflame build issue?
18:18 Corion Will have to wait, as one of my tests still fails in an unexpected way (rather than in an expected way :))
18:18 kcwu castaway: try /lastlog to grep logs
18:18 castaway Meeee?
18:18 castaway wtf?
18:18 castaway oh! in irrsi?
18:18 kcwu yes
18:18 castaway sorry, was miles away already
18:19 castaway hmm, guess isnt in the scrollback anymore.. thanks!
18:22 castaway ooh Corion, cute pop-up calendar on www.travelocity.com, when you click in the date box!
18:22 castaway (and it works in Opera ;)
18:22 Corion castaway: Mine doesn't ?
18:23 castaway I dunno.. just thought you'd be interested ,)
18:23 Corion But yes, it's really cute - I like how it highlights the field you're currently editing
18:23 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
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18:27 chip Hi all ... anybody remember whether traits can be specified with <> parameters?  i.e. if there were a "doc" trait, could I say   $x is doc<foo>   to mean   $x is doc('foo')  ?
18:27 clkao has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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18:29 castaway indeed, Corion :)
18:31 Corion jabbot, nopaste
18:31 jabbot Corion: Please go on.
18:31 jabbot pugs - 1380 - Small -p and -n changes
18:31 Corion jabbot, nopaste?
18:31 jabbot Corion: nopaste is http://paste.phpfi.com/ or http://nopaste.snit.ch:8001/ or at http://irc.csie.org:8888/
18:31 cwest has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:32 Corion jabbot, pastebot?
18:32 jabbot Corion: Tell me more about that.
18:32 Corion Hmm - what was the bot that automagically announced the pastes too?
18:32 crysflame nopaste?
18:32 crysflame pastebot?
18:33 crysflame pasteling!
18:33 Corion Aaah ! crysflame ++
18:33 theorbtwo http://sial.org/pbot
18:34 theorbtwo jabbot, nopaste is Use http://sial.org/pbot
18:34 jabbot theorbtwo: ©Ò¥H¡H
18:34 theorbtwo jabbot, patebot is Use http://sial.org/pbot
18:34 jabbot theorbtwo: ok
18:34 * crysflame blinks
18:34 theorbtwo jabbot, pasteling is Use http://sial.org/pbot
18:34 jabbot theorbtwo: ¤F¸Ñ
18:34 theorbtwo Somebody told jabbot to use various phrases in big-5.
18:34 cwest has joined #perl6
18:34 pasteling "Corion" at 217.234.123.6 pasted "Output of util/yaml_harness.pl for theorbtwo" (45 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8804
18:34 cwest bah
18:35 Khisanth cwest: still compiling ghc? :)
18:35 cwest heh
18:35 cwest nope. make error on pugs actually
18:36 pasteling "cwest" at 216.92.130.109 pasted "pugs, make, macosx 10.3" (6 lines, 470B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8805
18:36 cwest Probably something silly.
18:40 zuulvin_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:40 theorbtwo Hm, Corion, does setting things in ENV not work correctly, possibly?
18:40 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
18:40 Corion theorbtwo: Aaah - might be - I'll do it manually and verify that
18:40 theorbtwo Can you set $ENV{TEST_ALWAYS_CALLER}=1, then run a test by-hand?
18:41 Corion Nope - still the same when running the harness.
18:42 Corion ... and the output of a single test is no different than with ! exists $ENV{TEST_ALWAYS_CALLER}
18:42 theorbtwo Hm, odd.
18:44 billn has joined #perl6
18:44 x86 has joined #perl6
18:44 x86 w00t :P
18:45 * x86 didnt realize there was a dedicated perl6 channel
18:45 x86 im gonna go register #perl7 and #perl8
18:45 * x86 grins
18:45 integral it's more Pugs than p6
18:45 theorbtwo Is there another p6?
18:45 qmole Pugs is more p6 than p6 :)
18:45 x86 hah
18:48 shapr has joined #perl6
18:53 kungfuftr ah... home at last
18:54 shapr Anyone built up-to-the-minute pugs on debian/unstable with the 6.4 debs?
18:55 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:56 saorge has quit IRC ("ERC Version 5.0.1 $Revision: 1.726.2.3 $ (IRC client for Emacs)")
19:00 theorbtwo Yes.
19:00 shapr works fine for you?
19:00 theorbtwo Yep.
19:00 shapr ok, I'm going to check out the svn repo and try it again.
19:00 xerox has joined #perl6
19:05 shapr theorbtwo: Did I do something wrong? "svn checkout pugs && cd pugs && perl Makefile.PL && make -j3"
19:05 kungfuftr shapr: try `make test` by itself
19:06 theorbtwo That looks right to me, shapr.
19:06 shapr theorbtwo: What version do you get from dpkg -s ghc6 ?
19:08 shapr Oh I think I found the problem.
19:08 shapr I'm using ghc6.4 from the haskell-unsafe debian repository.
19:09 pasteling "theorbtwo" at 84.245.186.194 pasted "dpkg -s ghc6" (20 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8806
19:09 shapr ok, now I'm really confused.
19:10 shapr theorbtwo: thank you
19:12 Jouke has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:15 * kungfuftr starts to port File::Path and its dependencies
19:16 Corion Hmmm. File::Find::Rule could be ported. Maybe even as File::Find :)
19:17 dada good nacht
19:17 theorbtwo Goodnight, dada.
19:17 kungfuftr hhhmmm...
19:17 dada has quit IRC ("he took it all too far but boy could he play guitar")
19:27 Corion Hmm. What would be the basic building blocks of directory interaction ? opendir / readdir / closedir ? I'd wrap them into an iterator anyway, but Pugs needs these, right?
19:27 mattc has left
19:31 Corion Who'd I ask for builtins ?
19:32 metaperl__ has joined #perl6
19:32 theorbtwo p6l.
19:34 Corion theorbtwo: Ah. Yet-another-mailing-list ... I'll wait it out then ;)
19:37 vladtz has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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19:41 jabbot pugs - 1381 - Added test for unpacking hashes.
19:43 Corion How do I call a subroutine by name in Perl6 ?
19:44 PerlJam Corion: "Hey Foo(), come here!"  ;)
19:47 crysflame heh
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20:00 ninereasons has joined #perl6
20:01 castaway PerlJam++
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20:11 gaal has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
20:20 Corion I currently drift in the direction of making opendir/readdir/closedir become "slurpdir" instead
20:20 metaperl__ has joined #perl6
20:20 Corion (with the same list/scalar semantics as slurp() maybe)
20:20 Corion ... because I've never used rewinddir() myself
20:21 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
20:21 stevan hey Darren_Duncan
20:21 PerlJam Corion: what's needed is an IO::All-like interface IMHO
20:21 Darren_Duncan hey stevan
20:22 PerlJam The {open,read,close}dir interface can be kept for backward compatibility but be relegated to POSIX or something
20:22 Corion PerlJam: IO::All is the devils doing. It's convenient for nice hacks, but even less secure than open "|foo; rm -rf /"
20:23 Corion I want a safe open function that will open a file exactly as specified, and not some behind-the-scenes-magic that'll wreak havoc.
20:23 Corion But that's unrelated to the builtin that tells me about the contents of a directory :)
20:24 Corion ... the alternative I'm currently thinking about would be to return a "directory" object, just like open() returns a file object...
20:24 Corion ... but then, you never rewind/seek in the directory object, so the directory object would be a lazy list anyway
20:25 PerlJam Many things turn into lazy lists in perl6
20:25 stevan Corion: I think Apoc16 is going to deal with all that stuff
20:25 stevan (no idea when that will be out though)
20:26 Corion stevan: I was about to ask that resp. make the comment that I'd have learned Haskell by that time :)
20:26 PerlJam Corion: I've heard that IO::All is influencing the design of some perl6 things at the cabal level.
20:26 stevan Corion: you will likely be teaching graduate level courses in Haskell by the time its out :)
20:27 Corion PerlJam: Ah well - if they reintroduce the all-singing, all-dancing open backdoor, so be it. It was a nice time with Perl6, but Perl5 has its merits then.
20:27 PerlJam stevan: not if Larry delegates the work somewhat :)
20:27 Corion open(my $fh, "<", $filename) is almost good. open(my $fh, "| foo") is too powerfull.
20:27 stevan PerlJam: looks like he is starting to do that with s29
20:28 Darren_Duncan anyone know what the "CPAN drinking game" is that Autrijus referred to? ... the name suggests something in my mind, which is take a certain number of drinks when you see something on cpan, but I haven't found anything on google to back it up
20:28 Corion IO::All can be hacked in afterwards, just like it was done in Perl5
20:28 Corion Darren_Duncan: I think it involves alcohol
20:28 stevan Corion: would you prefer a all_hell_breaks_loose() builtin then?
20:28 Darren_Duncan yes, all drinking games do
20:28 Corion stevan: That's called eval ""
20:29 stevan Corion++
20:29 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Sleep [Time wasted online: 2hrs 5mins 2secs]")
20:29 Darren_Duncan you take a small drink when encountering something frequent, and many when something rare
20:29 Darren_Duncan the rules are usually made up to make fun of something
20:29 cwest has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
20:29 stevan Darren_Duncan: post a comment, ask him what it is
20:29 Darren_Duncan ok
20:29 Darren_Duncan in any event, he said he won it
20:30 stevan Darren_Duncan: "wining" a drinking game is open to interpretation
20:31 Darren_Duncan yes, its all a big joke really
20:31 metaperl has joined #perl6
20:31 theorbtwo I think you win if you're the last one concious.
20:31 Darren_Duncan yes
20:32 jhorwitz has left
20:32 stevan Darren_Duncan: if you come to YAPC::NA I am sure we can get another game going
20:32 Darren_Duncan mainly, I wondered what the list of conditions was for this particular game, if it were written up already
20:32 metaperl Darren_Duncan, did you write Rosetta?
20:32 Darren_Duncan metaperl, yes
20:32 Darren_Duncan if you mean the database library
20:32 stevan theorbtwo: did you get any more info about YAPC::NA accomidations
20:32 metaperl what a huge piece of software!
20:33 Darren_Duncan yep, 2 years in the making and it still can't do more than open and close a connection end-to-end
20:33 theorbtwo Stevan, haven't asked.
20:33 metaperl you seem to have a lot of obligations for your code to be database and web-server independant
20:33 Darren_Duncan I like to design for the long term
20:34 metaperl you're Canadian right?
20:35 metaperl_ has quit IRC (Success)
20:35 metaperl__ is now known as metaperl_
20:35 Darren_Duncan I am, yes
20:36 stevan Darren_Duncan: I read that first as "I like to design for a long time" :)
20:36 Darren_Duncan did you hear me say it here?
20:36 Darren_Duncan that is a side effect
20:36 cwest has joined #perl6
20:36 metaperl CGI-MultiValuedHash is pretty fresh
20:37 Darren_Duncan my first 5-8 releases of Rosetta, in 2003, had no code, just documentation
20:37 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
20:38 Darren_Duncan what does 'fresh' mean in this context?
20:38 Darren_Duncan do you mean 'it is different' or it was recently updated?
20:38 metaperl fresh means nifty and well-worth knowing about
20:38 metaperl in this case
20:39 metaperl it is a valuable contribution
20:39 stevan metaperl is getting all hip-hop on the canadian :P
20:39 metaperl :)
20:40 Darren_Duncan a short description of the way I work is "over-engineered"
20:40 stevan over-engineering++ # me too
20:40 Darren_Duncan it takes a long time to get anything functional, but once it is, it should last a long time and be very adaptable
20:40 * stevan queues some Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five for Darren_Duncan
20:40 Darren_Duncan that's my goal, to make stuff that is very useful
20:42 Darren_Duncan I see the whole Perl 6 / Parrot scene as being similar ... slow to become useful, but when it is, watch out!
20:42 metaperl lol@stevan
20:43 stevan Darren_Duncan: re: perl6/parrot, I agree, it will keep me from moving to (Ruby | Python | Java)
20:43 Darren_Duncan my saying 'slow' meant the process was started about 5 years ago, but only just now starting to be able to run perl 6
20:43 Darren_Duncan however, I consider it worth it for the quality of what is coming out
20:43 metaperl you left out C++
20:43 stevan metaperl: yuk!!! never
20:43 Darren_Duncan I agree
20:43 Darren_Duncan C++ is a has-been
20:43 metaperl Andrew J. Bromage likes C++
20:43 shapr But he likes Haskell better =)
20:44 metaperl there is a book on generic programming in C++
20:44 stevan metaperl: who is Andrew J?
20:44 kungfuftr work++ # yay! unlimited safari account
20:44 Darren_Duncan away from comp for 10 mins ...
20:44 metaperl Java lacks generics .... AJB was a former Perl programmer...
20:44 stevan metaperl: I think Java is going to get generics soon
20:44 metaperl he won paper of the year at TPC2 for a CGI-based kiosk system
20:44 stevan C# 2.0 is getting them too
20:45 stevan personally I like Ada style generics more than more type-based generics of C++, etc.
20:46 metaperl stevan are you on the extremeperl mailing list?
20:46 metaperl we are kicking up some serious dust on that list
20:46 stevan metaperl: i dont think so
20:47 metaperl you should join
20:47 shapr It's fun.
20:47 metaperl www.extremeperl.org
20:50 Corion has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:50 Corion has joined #perl6
20:51 stevan metaperl: who is running the list?
20:51 metaperl I suppose Rob Nagler
20:57 stevan joined
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21:04 Darren_Duncan ... back again
21:08 Darren_Duncan I had a quick look at the extremeperl group too ... 4 years its been around and 1/3 of the traffic was in just this month
21:10 Darren_Duncan anyway, since the list is normally low traffic, I signed to it also
21:10 shapr What do you guys think? Can you learn the lessons of Haskell without using Haskell? Can Perl alone teach you what there is to know about Haskell?
21:11 Corion shapr: No
21:11 Darren_Duncan what are the lessens of Haskell
21:11 stevan shapr: no
21:11 theorbtwo Perhaps /you/ can, but /I/ certianly can't.
21:11 stevan shapr: however I think you can learn about Haskell and then apply that back to perl
21:11 Corion shapr: At least the types are something quite foreign to Perl, and the Monads as well
21:11 shapr Yes, I think so too.
21:12 shapr The Pugs people have changed my opinion about Perlers in general.
21:12 shapr For the better =)
21:12 Darren_Duncan I don't consider myself an XP programmer, but I do constantly refactor my code
21:12 stevan shapr: I learned alot of ML, and later applied the knowledge to perl (because I have any ML work)
21:12 theorbtwo shapr, you're a lambadite?
21:13 shapr I'm not much of Perl user. I used it for two weeks once in ... 1999?
21:13 stevan theorbtwo: he also like *shhhhh* python
21:13 shapr Actually, in the last month, my opinion of Python has gone down much, and my opinion of Perl has gone up much.
21:13 Odin- Perl6 is something of a perl-lisp hybrid freak. :/
21:13 Corion shapr: Why has your opinion of Python gone down?
21:14 Odin- (I mean that in a kinda-good way, though.)
21:14 theorbtwo Oh, perl6 gets a lot more freakish then that.
21:14 shapr Because the man who designed Python, Guido van Rossum, thinks that all the Function Programming features of Python should be ripped out.
21:14 Odin- theorbtwo: Yeah, but I think that's a good description. ;)
21:14 Corion You can only appreciate (the features of) Lisp after you've reached a certain level of programming complexity
21:15 theorbtwo Yeah, Guido is very much of the There is Only One Way To Do It school of thought.
21:15 stevan shapr: lambda in Python is not so good, it could use reworking
21:15 Corion shapr: That's my impression too - I'm still programming in Python 1.6 and 2.2.
21:15 theorbtwo It has it's advantages, but it's not for me.
21:15 shapr I prefer multi-paradigm languages, I've considered Python to be one up to this point. If the FP features are removed, I think it will hurt the language as a whole.
21:15 Corion shapr: My feeling is that Guido is ripping it all out to sacrifice it for speed.
21:15 shapr stevan: I totally agree. I think the FP features in Python should be fixed, not removed.
21:15 stevan python list compressions are nice though (at least they were when I looked at them a while back)
21:15 ninereasons I like how much admiration of other languages has gone into the design of perl6
21:16 shapr stevan: they came from Haskell =)
21:16 stevan shapr: yup :)
21:16 shapr ninereasons: yes, me too.
21:16 shapr The famous "What I don't like about Advocacy" perl post says something about that.
21:16 x86 im gonna build my own perl6 implementation and call it rotts
21:16 * x86 chuckles
21:17 jdv79 admiration?  interesting word to use.
21:17 ninereasons "envy" is the word that was used during design
21:18 ninereasons admiration is a nicer word, and I think truer to the ... sentiment :-)
21:21 shapr I mentioned in some of the Python related IRC channels that I was unhappy about FP features being removed from Py3K, and most pythonistas said they didn't like the features anyway. Personally, I think that's because the FP stuff in Python doesn't work so well.
21:21 stevan shapr: lambda is just ackward to use especially without proper closures
21:22 jdv79 you don't think its just because most developers are used to OO these days?
21:22 Corion shapr: lambda is unwieldly, but that's no reason to remove it - it should be made _more_ usable instead. But Guido has lost much with me since he introduced types into Python and reduced the flexibility of objects
21:22 shapr Yeah, it is. But the FP features of Python got me started doing FP, and that got me into Haskell.
21:22 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
21:22 x86 has left
21:23 shapr jdv79: It might be, I don't know.
21:23 Khisanth shapr: wouldn't python being multi paradigm be at odds with "there can be only one way to do it"? :)
21:23 jdv79 we hired two new programmers for our very small team at work and all they know is OO
21:23 shapr I do think the monadic abstraction is lot like the object abstraction, but instead of separate objects stuck to each other, you have a conveyor belt.
21:24 jdv79 well, its what they are proficient in at least
21:24 Corion jdv79: Then maybe you hired the wrong programmers ? :)
21:24 jdv79 could be
21:24 stevan jdv79: is all they know OO, or Java?
21:24 jdv79 stevan, :)
21:24 Corion ... if you work in a SmallTalk shop, you better know OO :)
21:25 jdv79 talk about hitting the nail right on the head!
21:25 stevan I have meet many a OO programmer who really just knows how to write bad Java, and knows little of what OO really is
21:25 jdv79 one does seem to understand OO pretty well whereas the other seems to be a "Java coder"
21:26 stevan java is becoming the language of choice at several schools, which is a bad thing IMO
21:26 * shapr agrees
21:26 stevan not that Java is bad (its ugly at times, and really nice at times)
21:26 stevan but I think it boxes you into a bad thought pattern
21:26 jdv79 C and C++ was used where i went to school
21:27 shapr COBOL and 360 asm where I went to school =)
21:27 * stevan went to art school, mostly I used oils, and some watercolors :)
21:27 lightstep has joined #perl6
21:27 shapr Not that I ever got into the CS program.
21:27 shapr hiya lightstep
21:27 stevan personally I like JCL, now those were the days :P
21:28 * shapr grins
21:28 lightstep good evening
21:28 shapr stevan: I predict you are older than thirty years of age.
21:28 stevan shapr: LOL, 31 to be exact :)
21:29 stevan shapr: I am a programming language fetishist
21:29 lightstep does make also make Makefile ?
21:29 shapr oh me too!
21:29 shapr lightstep: perl Makefile.PL
21:29 stevan I have a really nice SNOBOL book on my bookshelf, right next to the IBM 360 ASM book
21:30 Corion Ah, so this is #over-30 on freenode :)
21:30 Corion ... except for autrijus, who is here to make us feel younger
21:30 stevan shapr: I have 3 kids though, which make me feel older than I am sometimes :)
21:30 shapr I'm over 30!
21:30 shapr but I have no kids.
21:30 lightstep i think it's hard to get to contrinuting to a perl6 implementation effort in haskell is you're not a programming language fetishist
21:30 Khisanth kids make you age faster? :)
21:30 stevan shapr: my personal favorite esoteric language is Lucid, ever hear of it?
21:31 shapr Yup, dataflow language.
21:31 stevan lightstep++
21:31 shapr You'd like Haskell's Yampa.
21:31 shapr And you'd like Arrows too.
21:31 stevan Khisanth: re: kids, they make you have to "act" older
21:31 shapr My favorite esoteric language of the moment is Epigram, heard of it?
21:32 Khisanth stevan: I was thinking of the stress
21:32 lightstep linux is on darcs but pugs is on svn? howcomes?
21:32 Darren_Duncan if you're going talking about ages, I'm 27 and single
21:32 stevan shapr: no
21:33 Corion single and kids are orthogonal :)
21:33 Darren_Duncan I do have younger siblings, however, and lots of friends have young children, so I'm still around them all the time
21:33 Corion lightstep: I thought Linux was using BitKeeper?
21:33 stevan Khisanth: its actually not so stressful, but my friday nights are a lot duller since kids
21:33 Darren_Duncan no children of my own, to clarify
21:34 stevan Darren_Duncan: that you know of ;)
21:34 lightstep Corion, it was #haskell's first april's fool joke
21:34 Corion lightstep: Aaah :)
21:34 Darren_Duncan stevan, unless someone stole my blood and mixed up a batch, definitely there are none
21:35 Darren_Duncan I'm not one of those people who sleeps around
21:36 Corion anyway - have a nice next 8 hours :)
21:36 stevan shapr: "Epigram is a dependently typed functional programming language" interesting ...
21:36 Corion (type inference)++
21:36 Darren_Duncan so here's a question ...
21:36 shapr stevan: You can describe code behaviour in the type system. It's wild.
21:36 Darren_Duncan If I make my big announcement about major code release tomorrow (SRT/Rosetta) Developer release #2, will people take it seriously?
21:37 shapr I doubt it.
21:37 Darren_Duncan does April Fools intrude on cpan?
21:37 Corion Darren_Duncan: Make it interesting, but keep it vague enough so that people keep wondering if it's for real or a joke :)
21:37 Corion Darren_Duncan: Sure
21:37 Corion Darren_Duncan: Don't release Acme::Rosetta and expect it to be taken seriously :)
21:37 Darren_Duncan I don't make Acme modules
21:37 lightstep netscape went open source on april first
21:38 Corion lightstep: And Parrot was conceived as an April Fools joke too
21:38 Darren_Duncan also, the rumors say Apple will anounce Tiger's release on april 1st
21:38 Corion I also heard that the next release will be called Pooh, after the success of tigger
21:38 Darren_Duncan yes, the origin of Parrot is a classic
21:39 Darren_Duncan maybe in 5 years, after they run out of cat names, and express unhappiness about the situation
21:40 shapr Fuzzbutt, MacOS MCMLXXXVIII
21:41 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 0.10.1/20041001]")
21:45 Darren_Duncan Corion, if I remember, I will make sure to keep my announcement vague, although that is the opposite of what I normally do so it may stand out
21:45 shapr has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:46 Darren_Duncan maybe if I make some outlandish claims, that'll do it
21:52 Khisanth no that would make it too fake :)
21:53 Darren_Duncan I know ... and this is the best yet ...
21:54 Darren_Duncan I'll just do it exactly the same way I would if it were some other day!
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22:02 beth has joined #perl6
22:05 jdv79 i thought you didn't hang at rutgers any longer
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22:44 lightstep @seen
22:44 lightstep jabbot, seen nothingmuch
22:44 jabbot lightstep: nothingmuch was seen on Thu Mar 31 22:02:39 2005
22:45 lightstep jabbot, seen lightstep
22:45 jabbot lightstep: lightstep was seen on Fri Apr  1 06:44:56 2005
22:50 theorbtw1 has joined #perl6
22:53 shapr has joined #perl6
22:55 lightstep shapr, pugs/src/Posix.hs is the module
22:55 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
22:55 shapr So why the heck can't make find it?
22:56 shapr it has -i. -isrc
22:57 lightstep wrong window
22:58 shapr Isn't make the correct command?
22:58 lightstep if MakeMaker creates incompatible make, that might be a problem. i have GNU Make 3.80
22:59 shapr same here, 3.80-9
23:03 shapr Maybe my system is just totally broken?
23:04 lightstep maybe
23:04 lightstep Maybe Broken = Nothing | Just Broken
23:05 lightstep omg, summer just hit (making it 2am instead of 1am)
23:06 Limbic_Region US has another week to wait
23:07 theorbtw1 Another week?  I thought just a few days...
23:07 Limbic_Region oh - did everyone read autrijus's journal entry indicating that there was a good chance he might be living with Leo for a couple weeks
23:07 * Limbic_Region lost track of time
23:07 Limbic_Region yes - this weekend
23:07 Limbic_Region for those who aren't familiar with Leo's code churning output capabilities - they rival autrijus
23:08 Limbic_Region that should be some fun and exciting times
23:08 shapr Wow
23:08 shapr I look forward to that. With some trepidation, but mostly excitement.
23:09 alinbsp has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:11 * crysflame blinks
23:11 crysflame oh, wow
23:11 crysflame that should be awesome
23:11 crysflame go autrijus
23:14 justatheory has joined #perl6
23:15 Khisanth Limbic_Region: that would probably be a strange time to be visiting Leo then :)
23:16 ninereasons has joined #perl6
23:16 lightstep has quit IRC ("too late now")
23:17 shapr yay!
23:17 shapr I can build pugs!
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