Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:06 metaperl_ is pugs able to execute any of the modules in the modules directory of the distro?
00:07 stevan metaperl: yes
00:07 metaperl_ i had problems executing COnfig::Tiny
00:07 stevan CGI, FileSpec (not File-Spec) and PodStreamParser
00:07 metaperl_ URL to follow
00:07 stevan metaperl: wont work, its OO
00:08 stevan mugwump moved some stuff around, but we need to better organize things
00:08 metaperl_ oh
00:08 stevan the old rule was: if its in ext/ it runs, if its in modules/ it doesnt
00:09 stevan but he moved stuff from ext to modules, and mixed it up
00:09 metaperl_ i'm trying to figure out what aspect of Perl6 to present at this month's Perl Monger's meeting --- nobody else likes to present
00:09 * metaperl_ does svn update
00:09 stevan metaperl: do you need something which can run?
00:10 stevan personally I really like multi-subs, they are mostly implemented
00:10 metaperl_ ah, our functional stuff ... that would be nice
00:10 stevan see examples/fp.p6
00:10 stevan and in CGI as well,.. I implemented param as a multi-sub
00:10 metaperl_ actually I would like to exemplify most of the points made in a recent perlmonks post
00:11 metaperl_ by iblec
00:11 metaperl_ how to port perl5 to perl6 or something like that
00:11 * metaperl_ groks url
00:12 metaperl_ hmm wish I knew his exact name
00:12 stevan check the AUTHORS file
00:13 metaperl_ http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=442402
00:13 metaperl_ found it
00:13 metaperl_ this should be on pugs wiki somewhere
00:13 metaperl_ I will add it
00:13 stevan actually its mostly copied from modules/PORTING_HOWTO
00:15 metaperl_ oh
00:15 metaperl_ oh well
00:15 metaperl_ http://pugs.kwiki.org/?ConversionGuide
00:16 metaperl_ what do the asterisks here mean?
00:16 metaperl_ multi sub length (*$x, *@xs) returns Int { 1 + length(@xs) }
00:17 stevan they mean the parameter is slurpy
00:17 metaperl_ lol
00:17 metaperl_ slurpy? what does that mean?
00:18 Khisanth flattens the corresponding argument?
00:18 stevan arrays dont flatten by default in perl6
00:18 stevan so foo(@list) and foo(*@list) mean to different things
00:18 stevan *@ is slupry it gathers all the args and slurps them into @list
00:18 Khisanth heh refering to the * as a splat would be fitting :)
00:19 stevan Khisanth: i think it is splat in other contexts :)
00:19 stevan so that length function works like this
00:19 stevan first *$x slurps up a scalar
00:19 stevan then *@xs slurps up the rest
00:19 Khisanth hrm slurp a scalar?
00:20 stevan it is equivalent to the Stardard ML idiom of x:xs
00:20 stevan or sometimes as head:tail
00:20 Khisanth ah that is more clear suprisingly :)
00:20 metaperl_ when you say foo(@list) and foo(*@list) are you referring to calling a sub foo in two different ways or is that the header of sub foo
00:20 stevan both :)
00:21 Khisanth stevan: why wouldn't sub length( $x, @xs ) work in that case?
00:21 stevan when you define the function sig you can specify that you want to slurp all the parameters by giving it a *@ sigil (or twigil or whatever)
00:21 metaperl_ flatten means something different to me. (@x, @y) flattens into a linear list
00:22 stevan and when you call foo(*@list) you are explicity flattening @list before you pass it
00:22 metaperl_ what od you mean "flatten" it
00:22 * metaperl_ looks for the Synopses
00:22 stevan metaperl: perl6 lists dont auto-flatten like perl5 lists
00:23 metaperl_ auto-flatten... what do they do instead
00:23 metaperl_ of course, I should go read this: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S06.html
00:23 stevan Khisanth: no it wouldn't work since it would require you to specify a scalar and a list as your two args, and the length recurses in such a way that would not work
00:23 metaperl_ unless you want to tell me
00:24 Khisanth ACK!
00:24 stevan metaperl: I suggest you read it too, but I will explian my understanding
00:24 Khisanth stevan: sounds like those things work like perl5 prototypes
00:24 stevan Khisanth: they are formal parameters, so they a much more powerful, but they are similar to prototypes in somw ways
00:25 stevan metaperl: the biggest change (as far as I know) is in how args are passed
00:25 stevan all perl6 subs which do not specify their args have a default arg of *@_
00:26 stevan which will slurp up everything passed to the sub into the @_ array (much like perl5)
00:26 ihb stevan: what about those that that declare parameters? do they get a @_ too?
00:26 stevan ihb: no idea, have to check the synopsis
00:27 elmex has joined #perl6
00:27 Khisanth there there are those $^ variables
00:27 Khisanth stevan: does this apply to methods as well?
00:28 stevan but the idea of @_ in some ways conflicts with formal params since perls auto list flattening makes it hard to pass multiple arrays (which is what prototypes tried to fix)
00:28 stevan Khisanth: yes, it does apply to methods
00:28 stevan Khisanth: but there is some weirdness with the invocant too
00:28 stevan you can leave it out of the arg list
00:29 stevan and it will be implicity topicallized
00:29 Khisanth and it would default to $self?
00:29 stevan however there is still some debate of the details of that
00:29 stevan Khisanth: no to $_
00:29 stevan metaperl: am I making sense?
00:30 metaperl_ stevan, I actually flipped over to S06 while you were talking to Khisanth
00:31 metaperl_ it made sense and what you said makes sense too
00:31 stevan metaperl: yeah they can explain it much better than I can :)
00:31 metaperl_ heh
00:32 stevan metaperl: be warned that type based multi-sub dispatching is broken in Pugs
00:32 stevan t/subroutines/multi_subs.t has some broken tests in it
00:33 stevan but if the sub signature is different enough it does seem to work
00:36 metaperl_ my impression of all this is that there is too much working going on - you have to do a lot of work in the sub's header and when calling the sub and make sure it all jives...
00:36 stevan metaperl: the idea I think is that if you do the work in the subs header, you wont have to do it when calling it
00:36 metaperl_ I've never seen so much protocol in calling a sub in any language ever before
00:37 metaperl_ well, but look at how foo(@args) will be an error when we have sub ($x, $y, $z)
00:37 stevan metaperl: it is pretty nutty, but hey its perl6 :)
00:37 metaperl_ :)
00:37 stevan yes it would
00:37 stevan unless you did this:
00:38 stevan sub foo (@args) { ... } and then called it foo([ $x, $y, $z ]) using the list constructor []
00:38 stevan (i think I am right here, I may not be so dont bank on it)
00:38 stevan of course you could always just do: sub foo(*@args) { ... }
00:39 metaperl_ complaining is pointless. if I have a better solution, then I should offer it
00:39 drbean has joined #perl6
00:39 metaperl_ otherwise just understand why they are doing it
00:40 stevan metaperl: personally I like it, but I do agree it can get a little burdonsome
00:40 stevan ideally it will DWIM in most cases and then allow freaks like me to do weird things :)
00:40 shapr Where are the lambdafolk needed today?
00:40 stevan shapr: it can't still be day for you is it?
00:40 shapr No, it's 2am actually.
00:41 shapr er, 2:40am
00:41 sorje 2:41! ;-)
00:41 metaperl_ there are issues with getting pugs installed in a local tree as opposed to /usr right?
00:41 Darren_Duncan stevan and others ...
00:41 shapr sorje: your clock is better than mine.
00:41 metaperl_ shapr, is the air fantastic in Sweden?
00:41 Darren_Duncan I have now finished the SQL::Routine perl6ification, with a few remaining issues
00:41 jabbot pugs - 1403 - SQL::Routine - last major perl6ification
00:41 stevan metaperl: I have no idea,.. i just put it in /usr
00:42 shapr metaperl_: It's warm on the inside, cold on the outside.
00:42 metaperl_ I dont have such privs
00:42 stevan Darren_Duncan: nice :)
00:42 Darren_Duncan 1. I still have to write a SYNOPSIS for the perl 5 version, which will then be ported
00:42 sorje shapr, sure. I am quite surprised that germany and sweden are in the same timezon, thouhg. ;-)
00:42 shapr metaperl_: re: extremeperl - turing machine equivalence is total copout
00:42 Darren_Duncan I didn't take advantage of any Perl 6 features that would make the code look too different from the perl 5 code
00:42 Darren_Duncan eg, hyper-operators
00:42 metaperl_ heh
00:42 shapr sorje: I'm just a little bit more north than you are. I'm 70km south of the Arctic Circle.
00:43 Darren_Duncan while I am open to doing so ...
00:43 * shapr looks at sort.t
00:43 Darren_Duncan I would like for the SRT code to be kept stable until the next Pugs release, aside from the SYOPSIS addition and small bug fixes
00:44 Darren_Duncan after the Pugs release, feel free to play with it, stevan, as you indicated you wanted to
00:44 sorje Oh sorry, confused Sweden and Finland
00:45 shapr s'okay, I've confused germany and austria before ;-)
00:45 Darren_Duncan any major suggested changes should be done after the Pugs release
00:45 shapr gruß gott!
00:46 sorje As I'm in the very very south austria feels more appropriate anyway. ;-)
00:46 shapr erlangen?
00:46 Darren_Duncan aside from chatting here and fixing smaller bugs, my attention today and tomorrow is on releasing the perl 5 modules ... which correspond to what is already checked into pugs
00:47 Darren_Duncan distro
00:47 sorje shapr, about the level of munich
00:47 shapr ah
00:48 sorje Well, got to work to.. day. Good night ;-)
00:49 shapr g'night
00:50 justatheory has quit IRC ()
00:50 Darren_Duncan g'night
00:51 drbean ruby's Matz has discovered pugs according to his blog: http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/200503.html
00:51 Darren_Duncan lookin
00:51 drbean but the blog is in Japanese
00:51 justatheory has joined #perl6
00:52 Darren_Duncan is there a good compu-translator for this?
00:52 metaperl_ nice April Fool's Joke drbrean :)
00:52 metaperl_ there was some talk of using PPI Darren
00:53 Darren_Duncan so who here can read that?
00:54 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
00:55 drbean It just says pugs is a perl6 compiler written in Haskell
00:56 drbean and for a moment he thought, Are you kidding?
00:56 Darren_Duncan I hear you, carry on
00:56 drbean BUt truly, they are not kidding
00:57 drbean and there is a link to Autrijus's perl.com interview with chromatic
00:57 drbean and that's all.
00:58 Darren_Duncan ok
00:59 shapr http://www.rubyist.net/~matz/20050307.html - note the Pugs and Haskell
01:00 drbean Oh in the next entry up about Span, he is saying something about parrot and pugs
01:01 shapr Amazingly, there's an article on Haskell in this month's 'Dator Magazin' (Computer Magazine) here in Sweden.
01:01 drbean Matz: After, what's interesting about Span is that it has adopted Parrot as its engine.
01:02 drbean execution engine
01:03 drbean And he says: Go, Parrot!
01:03 shapr Btw, would anyone mind if I submitted the pugscode url to lwn.net for next week's Perl development section?
01:03 mrmuskrat has joined #perl6
01:03 mrmuskrat howdy folks
01:03 shapr hiya musk
01:03 Darren_Duncan howdy doody
01:03 drbean And he concludes, Pugs is going to win.
01:04 Darren_Duncan shapr, why would that be a problem?
01:04 Darren_Duncan just do it
01:04 shapr Just wondered if there was an un/official PR person for pugs.
01:05 metaperl_ stevan...
01:05 stevan metaperl...
01:05 autrijus shapr: go ahead :)
01:05 shapr yay!
01:05 Darren_Duncan hello autrijus
01:05 metaperl_ fp.p6 uses eq ... in Haskell == would be polymorphic to the type of the daum
01:05 stevan hey autrijus
01:05 metaperl_ datum
01:05 autrijus stevan: sanity-p? http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/486
01:05 erxz_paste has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
01:05 metaperl_ autrijus: ignore my email - I learned that objects are not implemented?
01:05 autrijus aye
01:05 mrmuskrat can anyone help me with a pugs makefile issue?  "makefile(411) : fatal error U1087: cannot have : and :: dependents for same target"  Windows XP Pro + perl, v5.8.6 built for MSWin32-x86-multi-thread
01:06 autrijus metaperl_: polymorphic == works really well when both sides are of same type ;)
01:06 autrijus mrmuskrat: what's the paragraph around line 411? nopaste it?
01:06 erxz_paste has joined #perl6
01:06 mrmuskrat FIXIN = pl2bat.bat
01:07 stevan autrijus: that sounds sane
01:07 stevan contrib is a good name too
01:07 Darren_Duncan whenever someone wants, have a look at SQL::Routine in the repository and tell me if you spot any obvious bugs
01:07 autrijus stevan: ok. would you like to make it happen? :)
01:07 stevan autrijus: surely :)
01:07 Darren_Duncan ... with the perl 6
01:07 mrmuskrat pure_all ... blah blah ... 410 -> realclean :: and 411 -> $(RM_F) $(INST_SCRIPT)\pugs.exe $(INST_SCRIPT)\pugscc
01:07 autrijus I can do [B[B[B[Bstevan++
01:07 autrijus gah, bad latency.
01:08 stevan :)
01:08 autrijus stevan++ # I can do thD[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dis at least. :)
01:08 autrijus argh!
01:08 * autrijus wonders if there's a way to convince ssh/screen to not emit those stuff
01:08 drbean I found the Matz reference in Dan Kogai's blog entry about Autrijus
01:08 stevan autrijus++
01:08 drbean http://blog.livedoor.jp/dankogai/​archives/15812094.html#trackback
01:08 autrijus mrmuskrat: weird. post the entire makefile to nopaste or some other url?
01:09 autrijus mrmuskrat: also, are you using trunk with nmake?
01:09 drbean that blog is in Japanese too
01:09 mrmuskrat what's nopaste?
01:09 autrijus pasteling: nopaste
01:09 autrijus pasteling: nopaste?
01:09 stevan metaperl: your right, but I wanted to get fp.p6 to run :)
01:10 metaperl_ yes, I'm just noticing the difference between the languages
01:10 perlwolf has joined #perl6
01:10 autrijus ~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[​6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~oh well.
01:10 autrijus mrmuskrat: http://sial.org/pbot/
01:10 pasteling "mrmuskrat" at 67.174.166.72 pasted "makefile" (813 lines, 30.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8864
01:10 stevan metaperl: to be honest, the examples were actually ripped from my Standard ML book, not haskell
01:10 metaperl_ I see
01:10 stevan and adapted from my fp module too
01:10 theorbtw2 has joined #perl6
01:11 mrmuskrat I was looking for a nopaste user :)  not pasteling
01:11 mrmuskrat this is my first visit to #perl6 and my first time on irc.freenode.org
01:11 Darren_Duncan I've used nopaste, whatsyerquestion
01:11 jabbot pugs - 1404 - added (untested) Perl 5 implementation o
01:12 Darren_Duncan mrmuskrat, go here: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
01:12 Darren_Duncan use that when you want to share more than a line of quoted material
01:12 * metaperl_ heads home
01:12 Darren_Duncan ... with #perl6
01:13 metaperl_ 13 minutes later than 5pm on a Friday... how generous of me
01:13 mrmuskrat Darren, right.  I figured it out right before autrijus posted the link :)
01:13 Darren_Duncan so metaperl_ , you're in my timezone then
01:13 autrijus mrmuskrat: are you using svn trunk?
01:13 Darren_Duncan i got 5:13 here
01:13 Darren_Duncan pm that is
01:13 metaperl_ yes are you in Victoria? I'm in Southern California
01:13 Darren_Duncan I am in Victoria
01:14 Darren_Duncan silicon valley north is one name for the area
01:14 Darren_Duncan 'land of trees' is another
01:14 metaperl_ have you heard of the Fane Darren? they are a religious group in Victoria, BC CANADA
01:14 mrmuskrat no idea :)  I'm extremely new to svn.  I just did a "svn co url" and cd'ed in when it was done to do my "perl Makefile.PL"
01:14 Darren_Duncan never heard of 'Fane'
01:14 autrijus mrmuskrat: that is fine :)
01:15 Darren_Duncan are they a cult or a non-cult?
01:15 autrijus anyone else on win32?
01:15 autrijus if not I'll boot into win32 to check this
01:15 Darren_Duncan I'm win32-free here
01:15 metaperl_ i cant answer that "cult" question easily
01:15 castaway_ has joined #perl6
01:16 Darren_Duncan the short definition of cult is if the group worships someone who is present there physically
01:16 mrmuskrat autrijus, am I going to have to rebuild my linux box sooner rather than later?  ;-)
01:16 Darren_Duncan anyway, don't worry about it
01:16 shapr So that's why Rocky Horror Picture Show is a cult picture? Because of Dr. Frankenfurter?
01:17 stevan shapr: didnt he die at the end?
01:17 shapr Oh, so it stops being cult then?
01:17 stevan shapr: it would have to be a Brad and Janet cult ;)
01:17 autrijus mrmuskrat: uh no, no, pugs is committed to support win32
01:17 Darren_Duncan a cult is a cult while a worshipped human leader is alive
01:18 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
01:18 Darren_Duncan if he dies, then either the group falls apart, or ceases to be a cult
01:18 autrijus ..and become a culture?
01:18 Darren_Duncan mayhaps
01:19 stevan autrijus: so you want me to put Pugs::MakeMaker into the root lib/ directory?
01:19 autrijus stevan: yes I do
01:19 stevan ok
01:19 Darren_Duncan there should be separate dirs for Perl 5 and Perl 6 modules
01:19 autrijus I'll manage to convince ingy and mugwump here that it's a good idea :)
01:20 autrijus Darren_Duncan: yup, see my p6c post?
01:20 stevan ok :)
01:20 Darren_Duncan looking ...
01:21 stevan autrijus: what should I do about the Pugs MakeMaker makefile?
01:21 autrijus stevan: raze it
01:21 stevan ok :)
01:23 Darren_Duncan I see that email thread now
01:24 Darren_Duncan autrijus, same question as last week ... about what time of the day on this weekend to you plan to post Pugs .15?
01:25 Darren_Duncan fyi, aside from little bug fixes that people point out, the only remaining thing i want to get in is a SYNOPSIS for srt
01:25 Darren_Duncan and I will be writing that today
01:25 stevan ok commiting
01:25 Darren_Duncan ... elevator music ...
01:25 autrijus Darren_Duncan: .14 you mean?
01:25 Darren_Duncan um ...
01:26 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I'm flexible. could be tomorrow
01:26 autrijus i.e. at least 24hrs from now
01:26 Darren_Duncan you usually do it late saturday my time zone
01:27 Darren_Duncan ... yes, I meant .14
01:27 stevan ok r1405 is in
01:27 autrijus danke
01:27 Darren_Duncan shins
01:27 perlwolf has left
01:27 stevan bitte
01:27 stevan autrijus: I am going to respond to the mail, just for consistency
01:28 stevan actually nevermind,..no need to do that
01:28 Darren_Duncan I could do so also, but you guys will say what needs saying
01:28 stevan this is all logged
01:28 theorbtw1 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:28 castaway has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:28 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:29 Darren_Duncan what is with this theorbtwo / theorbtw1 duality that I keep seeing?
01:29 stevan ok I need to grab a bite to eat, but I have one question for the group
01:29 Darren_Duncan go ahead
01:29 stevan I wanted to do something more with the CGI hack
01:29 stevan so i was looking at some old CGI books
01:30 stevan should I implement a guestbook, a game of hangman, or something else equally as silly and useless :)
01:30 autrijus I like hangman :)
01:30 Darren_Duncan the game sounds more fun ...
01:30 stevan ok
01:30 Darren_Duncan and everyone does guestbooks already ... might as well stand out
01:30 stevan hangman it is,.. that is what my daughter thought too :)
01:30 autrijus mrmuskrat: try "svn up"
01:31 autrijus mrmuskrat: and see if it gives you the same problem
01:31 Darren_Duncan moreover, guestbooks are more of a database example than a cgi example
01:31 stevan ok,.. off for food, I will be back later &
01:31 jabbot pugs - 1405 - restructuring where perl6 and perl5 code
01:32 mrmuskrat ok
01:32 mrmuskrat yes but now it's at 414
01:33 autrijus ok.
01:33 pasteling "mrmuskrat" at 67.174.166.72 pasted "makefile (rev 1405)" (818 lines, 31.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8865
01:34 Darren_Duncan there are now 'empty' folders in /ext/Pod*
01:34 Darren_Duncan I mean ext/Pugs
01:34 Darren_Duncan the modules were moved out, but not the support files
01:34 Darren_Duncan is someone in the middle of this, or is that a loose end?
01:36 autrijus I don't see a ext/Pugs here
01:36 autrijus maybe you need to simply rm them
01:36 Darren_Duncan I mean ext/Pugs-Documentation and ext/Pugs-MakeMaker
01:37 Darren_Duncan are still there, without the modules, but still with support files
01:37 autrijus pugs-doc should remain
01:37 Darren_Duncan testing ...
01:37 autrijus the support files are artifacts on your system
01:37 autrijus they are not versioned.
01:37 autrijus so, just rm them, I think
01:37 Darren_Duncan I thought svn should have removed them, since it previously added them
01:38 autrijus they may be added by perl Makefile.PL
01:38 Darren_Duncan will remove then up to see what happens
01:38 autrijus k
01:39 Darren_Duncan it re-added Pugs/Documentation
01:39 Darren_Duncan I mean _
01:39 Darren_Duncan I mean -
01:39 autrijus that's ok.
01:39 autrijus it should be there.
01:39 autrijus (I think)
01:40 autrijus yay, aix finally builds ghc 6.4.
01:40 autrijus that means the last reason for maintaining 6.2.2 compatibility has just went away.
01:40 Darren_Duncan did you try it or read that?
01:40 autrijus if no-one opposes, Pugs 6.0.14 will drop 6.4 support.
01:40 autrijus Darren_Duncan: er, I'm the AIX porter for ghc :)
01:41 Darren_Duncan say again?
01:41 autrijus er
01:41 autrijus drop 6.2 support.
01:41 mrmuskrat so I should download and install 6.4?
01:41 autrijus drop ghc 6.2 support.
01:41 justatheory has quit IRC ()
01:41 Darren_Duncan sounds better
01:41 autrijus mrmuskrat: right, and maybe uninstall 6.2
01:41 Darren_Duncan in that case, I'll have to install 6.5 since I don't have it
01:41 Darren_Duncan I mean 4
01:41 autrijus yeah. sorry folks
01:41 Darren_Duncan looking ...
01:41 autrijus but the #ifdef
01:41 autrijus is getting out of control.
01:42 autrijus and 6.2 doesn't work well on win32 anyway (no %ENV)
01:42 autrijus I mean, 6.2-built pugs doesn't have real %*ENV support.
01:42 autrijus which is annoying.
01:42 Darren_Duncan I have to find the GHC download site again
01:42 mrmuskrat i was wondering about that last time I tried pugs
01:42 autrijus http://haskell.org/ghc/
01:42 Darren_Duncan du-oh-h
01:44 lambdabot has quit IRC ("new core code freshly served")
01:46 Darren_Duncan downloading now
01:47 mrmuskrat the uninstall takes took twice as long as the install
01:48 Darren_Duncan is uninstall automatic, or do I have to do something special?
01:48 autrijus prolly the regular win32 uninstall procedure
01:49 Darren_Duncan ... when using a premade binary
01:49 Darren_Duncan I'm not using win32
01:49 Darren_Duncan Mac OS X
01:49 Darren_Duncan I suppose the installer package will tell me...
01:49 metaperl_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
01:49 Darren_Duncan download done
01:50 autrijus ah. in that case you don't need a uninstall I think
01:51 Darren_Duncan so they will work at the same time, or a normal install will overwrite the old?
01:51 autrijus I don't know. I imagine the latter
01:51 Darren_Duncan the new installer says there is a script for uninstalling ...
01:52 Darren_Duncan will check that 6.2 had one...
01:52 mrmuskrat if it's anything like the win32 install, you don't have to uninstall as long as you update the path to point at the version you wish to use
01:52 Darren_Duncan sure, ... in this case I have no more use for the old version though
01:57 mrmuskrat oh boy.  anyone play SWG?
01:57 mrmuskrat I just logged in to the radiant galaxy and the ewoks are invading Bestine.  lol
01:57 Darren_Duncan as an experiment, I didn't even try to remove the old version, and just ran the new version installer ... see what happens
01:58 Darren_Duncan installer says it was successful
01:58 autrijus oh you should notice a significantly faster compile :)
01:58 autrijus will be even faster when I drop all the 6.2isms.
01:59 obra                            HEH
01:59 obra er. "heh"
01:59 Darren_Duncan doing a ghc -v gives the right version num
01:59 Darren_Duncan do it yeah do it!
02:00 Darren_Duncan I am currently at rev 1405
02:00 autrijus you may want a "make clean"
02:00 Darren_Duncan will now try to remake everything
02:00 autrijus right.
02:01 Darren_Duncan did a 'make clean'
02:02 Darren_Duncan curiously, according to its output, it didn' t do a 'rm' or anything like that, but rather a 'mv' to /dev/null
02:02 mrmuskrat autrijus, thanks for trying to get this working tonight but I'm going to call it quits for now.  I'll svn up in the morning and try again.
02:02 autrijus mrmuskrat: ok. I will fix it when you're up
02:02 autrijus mrmuskrat: sorry for the problem
02:02 Darren_Duncan anyway, now doing 'make' ...
02:03 autrijus mrmuskrat: oh, did 6.0.13 release workforyou?
02:03 autrijus or 6.0.12 release for that matter
02:03 mrmuskrat from cpan?  let me check
02:04 mrmuskrat I had one of them working
02:04 mrmuskrat probably 6.0.11
02:05 mrmuskrat I know that I had to revert to GHC 6.2.2 to get it to install
02:05 mrmuskrat quit
02:05 mrmuskrat doh
02:05 mrmuskrat nice... pugs -v shows 6.0.10
02:07 mrmuskrat and cpan is lying to me "Perl6::Pugs is up to date."
02:07 mrmuskrat d/l the gzip
02:07 autrijus reboot to win32 &
02:08 mrmuskrat same error with 6.0.13 from cpan
02:09 mrmuskrat anyway, there's no rush.  it's not like I've got to work my way through the synopses this weekend.
02:10 mrmuskrat I just thought that I'd spend an hour or two getting familiar with it
02:12 autrijus hrm
02:12 autrijus it worksforme on win32.
02:12 autrijus mrmuskrat: what is your nmake version?
02:13 mrmuskrat 7.10.3077
02:13 autrijus see "nmake /?"
02:13 autrijus oh. the .net one?
02:13 mrmuskrat yes
02:13 autrijus where can I get it?
02:13 autrijus I'm using 1.50 still
02:13 autrijus if you remove nmake.exe from your path
02:13 autrijus and run makefile.pl again
02:13 mrmuskrat I got it with MS C++ .NET 2003
02:13 autrijus it will likely to fix it
02:14 autrijus hrm, can you put it somewhere I can download? the nmake.exe I mean
02:14 autrijus or rather, nmake.*
02:14 mrmuskrat I was using the VS .NET 2003 command prompt and not the normal one
02:14 mrmuskrat you should d/l the free version... I've got it at work.
02:15 mrmuskrat let me see if I have the url
02:15 Darren_Duncan the 'make' succeeded, bug I got a 'Warning: `Ptr' is imported more than once:' from the DynamicLoader.hs file
02:15 Darren_Duncan anyway, on to 'make test' ...
02:16 mrmuskrat http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/
02:18 mrmuskrat ew
02:18 mrmuskrat I have to find the old version of nmake and remove it
02:22 mrmuskrat um
02:22 mrmuskrat when I run perl Makefile.PL and it can't find nmake, it downloads version 1.50.
02:23 mrmuskrat the error is the same and still at line 414
02:23 autrijus very weird.
02:23 autrijus go sleep, I'll figure it out :)
02:23 mrmuskrat thanks :)
02:23 autrijus oh, nopaste your perl -V
02:23 autrijus before you sleep :)
02:24 mrmuskrat ok
02:24 pasteling "mrmuskrat" at 67.174.166.72 pasted "perl -V" (57 lines, 2.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/8867
02:25 mrmuskrat has left
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02:51 jabbot pugs - 1406 - * GHC 6.4 here we come.
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03:35 Darren_Duncan I was away from my comp for the last hour ... anyway ...
03:35 Darren_Duncan 'make test' for 1405 said - Failed 29/169 test scripts, 82.84% okay. 224/3849 subtests failed, 94.18% okay.
03:36 autrijus sounds good
03:36 Darren_Duncan this under 6.4
03:36 Darren_Duncan on Mac OS X 10.3.8
03:37 Darren_Duncan if I'm around, I'll test your preflight likewise ... otherwise, I won't test again unless you ask due to some risky change that was made
03:38 Darren_Duncan question - did 1406 have those ifdefs stripped out, or does that come later?
03:38 Darren_Duncan nevermind
03:38 autrijus :)
03:39 Darren_Duncan I said that because a svn up showed no changes to .hs files, where I presume the ifdefs are
03:39 Darren_Duncan then again ...
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03:51 jabbot pugs - 1407 - * builtins.kwid is now S29.
03:54 viirya has joined #perl6
03:57 autrijus massive src reorg in progress.
03:59 Darren_Duncan i unnerstan'
04:01 jabbot pugs - 1409 - mp me up baby
04:01 jabbot pugs - 1408 - * ArgsParse is now Run.Args.
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04:06 autrijus t/Synopsis is finally being blasted.
04:07 autrijus ingy will head the new Perl6::Bible effort.
04:07 autrijus film at 11. I mean, on p6c.
04:12 theorbtwo Mm.
04:12 theorbtwo I suppose it's no longer April Fool's there by a good 12 hours.
04:12 autrijus sadly, it's serious.
04:12 mugwump It's only supposed to be until noon
04:14 theorbtwo I have no problems with t/Syn being blasted.
04:14 theorbtwo But the docs should be available by man Perl6::S02, etc, when pugs is installed.
04:15 theorbtwo Also, having them available for easy grep is key for useful development.
04:15 theorbtwo (Try searching for the =:= operator with google...)
04:15 mugwump Well, for your convenience I've included a URL to the online browsable versions and the subversion source.
04:15 autrijus theorbtwo: yes. that's the idea
04:16 autrijus Perl6::Bible will contain them
04:16 autrijus and it will be on CPAN
04:16 autrijus so you can easily download them.
04:16 theorbtwo Oh, OK.
04:21 jabbot pugs - 1411 - Early Kwid parser
04:21 jabbot pugs - 1410 - Remove t/Synopsis/S*.pod
04:21 Steve_p Perl6::Bible?
04:22 mugwump sure, why not :)
04:22 * Steve_p wanders off the p6c to take a peek
04:24 * Alias_ pokes autrijus: <purl> couldn't get the headlines: http://wagner.elixus.org/~autrijus/cpan.rdf wasn't successful
04:30 autrijus Alias_: will fix
04:30 autrijus NA hackathon announced: http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/487
04:30 autrijus EU hackathon to be announced next monday
04:31 autrijus all in the same month
04:31 Alias_ 4 days!
04:31 Alias_ wow!
04:31 autrijus Alias_: you had not heard I'll stay in leo's house for 2 weeks?
04:31 Alias_ no
04:31 autrijus ok. that's just before YAPC::NA hackathon
04:31 jabbot pugs - 1414 - turn off parser test for cpan
04:31 jabbot pugs - 1413 - Changed Perldoc test stuff
04:31 jabbot pugs - 1412 - forgot these Perldoc modules
04:31 autrijus so it will be a month full of hackathons
04:31 Alias_ I had mentally written you off for conference season
04:32 Alias_ I forgot YAPC::NA is in .ca
04:32 autrijus =)
04:32 Alias_ Look like I won't get to YAPC::NA... I'd hoped to do the pair of cons, but the odds are my business will be at a critical launch point somewhere around june
04:33 autrijus k.
04:33 autrijus good luck :)
04:34 * Khisanth imagines neighbors complaining about the sound 13 hackers hacking :)
04:34 Alias_ It's going to be a hell of a year ... :/
04:34 Alias_ Khisanth: And the patrich in the pear tree...
04:35 autrijus Khisanth: the place is in a far far isolated place :)
04:36 Khisanth but it mentions a neighbor :P
04:36 autrijus true :P
04:38 * theorbtwo wonders.
04:38 theorbtwo I was hoping to go to the hackfest, but I wasn't invisioning it being at somebody's house out in the sticks.
04:38 Khisanth is there a way to make whatver it is that is building pugs run at a lower priority?
04:38 theorbtwo The normal way -- man nice.
04:39 theorbtwo Or renice.
04:39 Alias_ Do you have an address?
04:39 * Khisanth goes grepping through Makefile.PL
04:39 Alias_ Just pull it up on NASA World Wind and see what it looks like
04:39 Alias_ http://ali.as/photos/OSCON
04:39 autrijus nice make
04:39 Alias_ # Shows Alias Central during OSCON
04:40 Alias_ eep, bad url
04:40 autrijus theorbtwo: I hear there's lots of outdoor activities possible
04:40 Alias_ make that http://ali.as/OSCON/
04:40 Khisanth s/outdoor activities/distractions/ ;)
04:40 theorbtwo I'm not much on outdoor activities, generally.
04:41 autrijus theorbtwo: also it's 90min drive from central toronto
04:41 autrijus so it's not that bad... I think
04:42 theorbtwo Oh, the mail says 1.5.
04:42 * Steve_p reads about the hackathon and sighs
04:42 theorbtwo Er.  Same thing.
04:42 Steve_p heh
04:42 autrijus Steve_p: hm?
04:42 * theorbtwo shakes his head, trying to get the idiocy out.
04:42 Steve_p I'm probably not going to be able to go to Toronto :(
04:43 theorbtwo I'm certianly going to YAPC::NA.
04:44 theorbtwo I'm hoping to do the hackathon as well, but am uncertian.
04:44 autrijus theorbtwo: you don't have to stay for 4 whole days...
04:44 autrijus you can just drop by and say hi :)
04:44 * theorbtwo grins.
04:46 Steve_p Have people seen the warnings with ghc 3.4?
04:46 theorbtwo 3.4?
04:46 theorbtwo 6.4, you mean?
04:46 Steve_p Duh?  Yes, 6.4 :)
04:47 Alias_ A quiack Haskell question
04:47 Alias_ quick
04:48 Alias_ Am I right in reading that one of the key features of Haskell is that is can implement math-like provably correct things?
04:48 autrijus yes, fixing warnings.
04:48 autrijus Alias_: yes.
04:48 autrijus term is "proof-carrying code"
04:48 Alias_ So you don't actually have to write unit tests for certain functions, because you can prove it works right
04:48 autrijus also it comes with QuickCheck that is a weaker form of provable code
04:49 autrijus yes, that is the idea.
04:49 Alias_ Is that provability tracked in the language?
04:49 autrijus or rather, you can prove that it satisfy a set of invariants.
04:49 Alias_ Internal meta-data or some such
04:49 autrijus there is a Programmatica project that tracks such metadata
04:49 Alias_ invariant?
04:49 * Alias_ lacks in terminology in this area
04:49 autrijus "properties about the system"
04:49 * mugwump just happens to be googling for that now
04:50 mugwump Alias_: aka "Axiom"
04:50 Alias_ Axiom is another thing I know nothing about
04:50 autrijus but normally you have to derive them using QuickCheck or other tools
04:50 Alias_ I tend to just discover concepts independantly most of the time
04:50 Alias_ Then find out later they have names
04:50 * theorbtwo wonders if there's a -w option that makes sure that you've not written any pattern-matches that can fail.
04:51 autrijus theorbtwo: -Wall detects that.
04:51 autrijus there is a -W that checks for this
04:51 autrijus forgot which
04:51 Alias_ autrijus: Oh, did you say that PPI::Tokenizer has an official name? I wanted to update the POD
04:51 autrijus what official name?
04:51 Alias_ For the parser "type"
04:51 mugwump An Axiom is like a statement of truth.  You define something as being so, and then everything else follows from it
04:51 autrijus context?
04:51 Alias_ infinite something something
04:51 jabbot pugs - 1416 - release files
04:51 jabbot pugs - 1415 - Doc tweak for release
04:51 autrijus backtracking parser with infinite lookaheads?
04:52 Alias_ right, that
04:54 mugwump http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom  # a nice write-up
04:54 autrijus mugwump: invariants are something you prove about a system, I think
04:54 autrijus like conservation of energy
04:54 autrijus not sure whetthey are laws, not axioms
04:55 Alias_ At least Haskell finally makes some sense to me now
04:55 Alias_ "What you use when you want to be provably correct"
04:55 obra "Hello Kitty has no mouth" being an example of a universal invariant
04:56 mugwump well, once I work through http://xrl.us/tapl, no doubt we will be using the same set of terms
04:56 autrijus mugwump: how far are you into it?
04:56 autrijus I was just reading typed assembly in ATTaPL this morning
04:56 autrijus makes lotsa sense
04:57 autrijus with OO support and provably won't stuck
04:57 obra wait. xrl.us/tapl is tapl?
04:57 mugwump well, the other day I tried to dive right into chapter 18 in TaPL, which is a study on Featherweight Java
04:57 mugwump It made quite a bit of sense, but I'm not sure how to apply it
04:58 mugwump obra: I love the way metamark will let you name the links :)
04:59 autrijus mugwump: you may want to start at beginning :)
05:00 mugwump :)
05:01 jabbot pugs - 1417 - * fix ghc 6.4 warnings.
05:06 Steve_p hey, I was going to do that :)
05:06 autrijus :D
05:07 autrijus I'm still removing 6.2isms.
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05:09 * Steve_p looks into the trig functions
05:11 autrijus haskell has this weird property of bits can't easily rot
05:12 autrijus because they become type errors as soon as they rot
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05:26 ingy hola
05:27 theorbtwo Morning, ingy.
05:31 Darren_Duncan Evening, ingy
05:31 jabbot pugs - 1418 - * deprecation warnings are gone
05:32 Darren_Duncan eggcenent
05:32 Darren_Duncan celent
05:36 Southen has joined #perl6
05:38 * theorbtwo sighs.
05:38 autrijus mmm?
05:39 theorbtwo You know, most things about the pugs/perl6 effort I like, but a couple of things really get under my skin from time to time.
05:40 theorbtwo Trying to hide references is one of them.
05:43 autrijus mrrmph
05:43 autrijus elaborate?
05:43 autrijus the current way pugs treat refs is probably all wrong
05:43 autrijus but the language level ref-hiding is part of perl6
05:43 theorbtwo Yeah.
05:43 theorbtwo I don't like it.
05:43 Jouke has joined #perl6
05:43 autrijus elaborate? :)
05:43 theorbtwo $x=4; $y=\$x; $y=10;
05:43 theorbtwo I expect after that $x is 4, $y is 10.
05:44 theorbtwo If I wanted that to change $x, I would have used :=.
05:44 autrijus sure. why would it be otherwise.
05:44 autrijus ask pugs?
05:44 autrijus $x is 4 and $y is 10.
05:44 ingy =)
05:45 theorbtwo People are suggesting otherwise in the "identity tests and comparing two references" thread.
05:46 autrijus unless people is @larry
05:46 autrijus I suggest to ignore.
05:47 obra @larry...
05:47 Khisanth if $x ends up as 10, that would be rather annoying and confusing
05:47 * theorbtwo wonders who @larry[1...] is.
05:48 Khisanth @larry[1..] is infinite larrys?
05:48 theorbtwo Just the ones that actually exist, AFAIK.
05:49 theorbtwo I could well be wrong, though.
05:49 Khisanth hmm infinite number of larrys typing on infinite keyboards ... :)
05:49 Alias_ Khisanth: Which that might generate a hell of a lot of documentation, will we get much code?
05:50 theorbtwo Anyway, the first Larry is Larry Wall... who are the rest of them?
05:51 Alias_ Larry W(All)
05:51 Khisanth alternate dimension copies
05:51 autrijus theorbtwo: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/people.html
05:51 obra Larry tty0...Larry ttyN
05:52 flw has joined #perl6
05:53 * Khisanth strangles GGV
05:53 theorbtwo Ah, you mean $cabal.
05:54 Khisanth $*CABAL? :P
05:55 obra *** Error: Undefined variable $cabal at Var "$cabal"
05:55 rgs that's normal.
05:56 theorbtwo You didn't declare it.
05:56 obra Right. There is no cabal.
05:56 theorbtwo Hm, I'm not sure that "Undefined" is the word we should be using.
05:56 theorbtwo Cognative dissonnance with undef.
05:57 theorbtwo "Undeclared"?
05:57 rgs Unexistent.
05:57 rgs (for $cabal :)
05:57 theorbtwo No, I mean the error message should be fixed.
05:58 autrijus sure.
05:58 autrijus fix it to say
05:58 autrijus Global symbol "$w" requires explicit package name
05:58 autrijus or something like it?
05:58 theorbtwo Nooo!
05:58 autrijus ;)
05:58 obra Sorry. Didn't mean to cause actual discussion ;)
05:58 autrijus "Undeclared" is fine by me.
05:58 autrijus please commit ahead.
05:58 rgs obra :)
05:59 autrijus aww
05:59 autrijus I just discovered that
05:59 autrijus perl -Mstrict -e'$a'
05:59 autrijus is just fine
06:00 autrijus perl -Mstrict -e'$x' # error
06:00 clkao finally there's ghc 6.4 pkg
06:00 * autrijus feels suddenly motivated to do this rewrite perl thing
06:00 Alias_ heh
06:01 theorbtwo $a and $b are exempt; doing otherwise makes writing sort subs annoying.
06:01 theorbtwo OK, not annoying as much as confusing.
06:01 autrijus that's why we have $^a now.
06:01 theorbtwo I know.
06:01 autrijus and the "reverse sort" optimisation
06:01 autrijus rgs++ # 5.9.2
06:01 theorbtwo Wait, $^a is in 5.9?
06:01 jabbot pugs - 1420 - * use qualified Data.Map
06:01 jabbot pugs - 1419 - Deleting contrib
06:02 theorbtwo I'm liking the idea of @foo = sort @foo opt.
06:02 autrijus no, reverse sort is 5.9
06:02 autrijus not $^a
06:02 theorbtwo Ah, OK.
06:02 Khisanth do people actually use reverse sort LIST?
06:03 autrijus it was slow
06:03 autrijus now it's fast
06:03 autrijus so I imagine people will gradually start using it
06:03 Khisanth it just like a strange thing to do
06:03 Khisanth seems
06:03 autrijus it feels more natural than
06:03 autrijus sort { $b cmp $a } LIST
06:03 autrijus to me
06:03 theorbtwo To me as well.
06:03 Alias_ Khisanth: Write a detect function, and ask File::Find::Rule::PPI
06:04 Khisanth oh you mean that
06:04 autrijus or just ask miyagawa's search
06:04 Alias_ that too
06:05 theorbtwo (I do a @foo = sort {$b->depth <=> $a->depth} in categorize_tests, BTW.)
06:05 theorbtwo ...which could possibly benifit from /both/ of those.
06:06 castaway_ more natural? eh? you lot strange
06:07 Khisanth autrijus: I thought you meant reversing the result of sort in general, not just the default sort
06:07 autrijus ingy: Perl6::Pugs::MakeMaker? Pugs::MakeMaker?
06:07 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:07 autrijus ah.
06:07 theorbtwo OTOH, it could benifit more from somebody writing an easy way to say "give me the first element in the order specified by this code block".
06:08 autrijus head . sortBy code
06:08 Alias_ theorbtwo: List::Util::first
06:08 theorbtwo I could have sworn there was a way to do that in Scalar::List, but I didn't see one, and didn't feel like implementing it.
06:08 theorbtwo No, List::Util::first is $foo = (grep)[0];
06:08 * Alias_ blinks
06:08 Alias_ oh, right
06:08 autrijus there's no such thing in List::Util.
06:09 theorbtwo I know.
06:09 Alias_ Check List::MoreUtils
06:09 autrijus you can write it using a fold.
06:09 autrijus I mean, reduce
06:09 theorbtwo I know.
06:09 Alias_ Wouldn't min { .. .} @list do it?
06:09 theorbtwo OTOH, the list I'm doing it on in this case probably maxes out at 5 elements.
06:09 theorbtwo I don't think min takes a codeblock.
06:09 Alias_ The min would be the first element of the sorted list
06:10 Alias_ Then you arn't using the right min
06:10 theorbtwo Nope, it doesn't.
06:10 Alias_ :)
06:10 theorbtwo List::Util is core on recent perls, and it already has plenty of deps.
06:11 theorbtwo 14 use lines.
06:11 jabbot pugs - 1421 - * Internals.TH is now gone
06:12 theorbtwo Er, one of those is local to mine.
06:28 drbean ?help
06:30 drbean has left
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06:41 jabbot pugs - 1422 - Moving disabled modules into `modules` d
06:42 castaway disabled modules?
06:43 * castaway hopes they have rights too
06:44 theorbtwo Modules that shouldn't be compiled per default, because they're expected to not work at present, or because they're just there "for the time being".
06:44 autrijus right.
06:44 castaway aha ;)
06:44 autrijus as soon as some module Works, we welcome it back to ext/.
06:44 * castaway starts up the "rights for disabled modules" movement ;)
06:46 Corion has joined #perl6
06:47 Corion Hi ! After reading the logs, I assume that I'll have to upgrade to GHC 6.4 :)
06:47 autrijus yes. :)
06:47 autrijus sorry but it's better in the long run
06:47 Corion autrijus: I'll manage :)
06:48 autrijus it also means we get version objects for free
06:48 Corion autrijus: Free stuff is always cool :)
06:48 Corion Oooo - and the Makefile.PL even checks for GHC 6.4 - nice!
06:49 Corion ... but that means no smoking until in 8 hours, as I'll be away for the day :) You'll manage :)
06:49 autrijus I'll manage :)
06:50 * castaway waves at Corion.
06:50 Corion Good morning castaway :)
06:50 * Corion still wonders at the test failures in kungfuftrs smoke tests ...
06:50 castaway it's morning?
06:50 Corion castaway: at least here, yes
06:50 castaway so thats what that light is
06:50 Corion ... and the sun is shining - splendid weather for riding my bike! :)
06:51 castaway oh, the new bike
06:51 castaway still shiny?
06:51 Corion castaway: Yes, still shiny :) And it'll get cleaned tomorrow, so it'll shine some more ! :)
06:51 castaway ;)
06:51 castaway what colour(s) ?
06:51 jabbot pugs - 1424 - * pod sections can now contain arbitary
06:51 jabbot pugs - 1423 - * it is now ok to warn depcrecations etc
06:52 Corion autrijus: BTW, one of my (failing) tests is of interest to you - t/pugsrun/09-dash-uppercase-c.t - the failures there are Parrot compiler failures (or so I think)
06:52 Corion castaway: Sky blue (if that's a colour), just like on the pictures I showed/posted :)
06:52 castaway oooh
06:52 Corion ... but I can upload a live picture :)
06:52 castaway yay
06:54 Corion Oh. Even reading the headlines of slashdot is now lame. They have really really lame april fools jokes
06:54 castaway tell us something we didnt know :)
06:54 Alias_ indeed
06:54 castaway (and Iavent even looked)
06:54 Alias_ Although I'm trying to work out of "no limit Gmail accounts" is a hoax or not
06:56 Corion BTW, is there a way to make PuTTY automagically reconnect?
06:56 Alias_ ooo.. I wish
06:57 castaway That would be nice
06:57 castaway run it in a perl loop?
06:57 Corion Alias_: :) Chat!Zilla does this for me, so I can hibernate the computer and it wakes up without any "problem". I'd like PuTTY to be the same.
06:57 Corion castaway: Hmmm. Hmmmmmmm.
06:57 Alias_ The problem with PyTTY is that you'd still need to enter passwords again
06:57 Alias_ PuTTY
06:57 castaway you can use the agent
06:58 Alias_ Chat is a bit of a different situation
06:58 Corion http://datenzoo.de/pugs/Honda-CBF-600.jpg (200k)
06:58 Corion for passwords I'd (then) use the agent, true
06:58 Corion "pageant" or however it's called
06:58 castaway http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgta​tham/putty/wishlist/reconnect-auto.html
06:58 Corion castaway: :(
06:59 Alias_ "(Some people would like for us to remember the password so they don't have to type it again, but we won't be doing that.)"
06:59 Corion It's a photo taken with my Nokia 7610, so the quality isn't top notch :)
06:59 Corion Alias_: Yes - that's what PuTTY agent (pageant?) is for
06:59 castaway ooooh, shiny
06:59 theorbtwo Looks pretty, Corion.  I didn't know that you ride motorbikes.
06:59 Corion Alias_: You passphrase protect all your logins with it, and it manages them
07:00 castaway thats a phone pic? not bad!
07:00 Corion theorbtwo: I've been doing so a long time, and it's mentioned on my homenode :) But last year, I didn't ride much, because my old bike was too old (slow, broken)
07:00 Corion castaway: Yes, not bad for a phone pic :)
07:01 theorbtwo Oh.  Apparently, you showed us your bike while we were in town.
07:01 castaway sold the old one on ebay for lotsacash?
07:01 theorbtwo But I forgot.
07:01 Alias_ ok, definately start investing in oil companies
07:01 Corion Alias_: See http://the.earth.li/~sgtatham/put​ty/0.57/htmldoc/Chapter9.html#C9 for passwordless putty
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07:01 * castaway wanna see Corion in leathers ,)
07:01 jabbot pugs - 1425 - * nomenclature: "Pod" rules are now "Doc
07:01 Corion castaway: Not yet :( Photos to be taken of it and then it's to be sold
07:01 Alias_ Corian: While I want it, I don't want it enough to reduce security level
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07:02 Corion castaway: :)) I'm told I look good in leathers
07:02 Schwern VICTUALS++
07:02 Corion ... and some evenings, I just sit in the mirror, oiling me up in my leathers
07:02 castaway *g*
07:02 Schwern Though I would have thought Ingy's would be "Sausage, eggs, potatoes and bourbon"
07:02 Corion s!in!in front of! :)
07:02 Schwern Corion:  I like the first version better.
07:03 castaway Oh, thats a file ??
07:03 Schwern http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/VICTUALS
07:03 Corion Alias_: Aah, the age old conflict of security vs. convenience :)
07:03 Alias_ but of course
07:04 Corion Schwern: Well, that's because you have no mirror in your room. So I need to watch other people through the mirror!
07:04 castaway ah, cute
07:04 Alias_ I keep thinking that every stable country in the world should be hanging on to their safe oil as long as possible, to let the prices creep up
07:05 castaway safe oil?
07:05 theorbtwo safe oil?  This is the stuff you oil safes with?
07:05 castaway oh, saved
07:06 Alias_ "safe" as in stuff that isn't subject to touchy offshore treaties where some other country might pinch it
07:06 theorbtwo Oh!
07:06 Alias_ on-shore oil where the entire field is inside your protected zone
07:06 Alias_ or something of that nature
07:06 theorbtwo Ah, yeah.
07:07 Alias_ It's getting to the point where the .gov.au has decided that they are going to have to drill the Great Barrier Reef for oil
07:07 castaway lucky for them as has it
07:07 castaway ick
07:08 Alias_ I guess this does at least mean we can cap global warming once the oil runs out
07:08 Khisanth Alias_: it should start growing more soybeans instead :)
07:08 Alias_ And it's probably a good time to invest in solar tower companies
07:08 Alias_ and uranium miners
07:08 Alias_ and rail companies
07:08 castaway rail ?
07:09 Alias_ Trucks need oil, trains can use electricity
07:09 castaway not all places ,)
07:09 Alias_ At $80 a barrel, there's a whole range of non-carbon electricity sources that become profitable
07:10 Alias_ Solar, wind and solar-tower are all sweet at $80
07:11 theorbtwo Or carbon but not petroleum-based.  (Nor coal.)
07:12 Alias_ Well, non-cached carbon
07:12 theorbtwo Non-cached?
07:12 castaway you missed hyrdo, or is that expensive/
07:12 castaway ?
07:12 Alias_ Hydro is profitable already, but has limited supply
07:12 Alias_ There arn't enough places to dam
07:13 Alias_ It's fairly expensive in real-estate terms
07:13 theorbtwo There are plenty of places to dam, but most of them are too small to bother with.
07:13 Alias_ theorbtwo: The idea that all these "non-renewable" things are using up "cached" energy below the earth (or wherever)
07:13 theorbtwo Oh, yeah.
07:13 theorbtwo Makes sense.
07:13 castaway well wind-wotsit space is limited too
07:13 Alias_ yeah
07:14 Alias_ Solar tower is interesting
07:14 Alias_ Australia could generate bucketloads of it, same with most other desert-like places
07:14 castaway should slap it on all rooves
07:14 castaway (rooves? eek.. roofs .. ?)
07:14 Alias_ Slap a 1km concrete tower on every roof?
07:14 castaway no, planels
07:14 Alias_ oh...
07:14 Alias_ Towers look like a better option
07:15 theorbtwo Hmm?
07:15 castaway whats better? why not both, more isnt bad, no?
07:15 theorbtwo Getting it up above the cloud layer, you mean?
07:15 Alias_ 600 megawatt power plant, built from a 1km concrete tube
07:15 castaway sneaky
07:15 Alias_ http://www.enviromission.com.au/index1.htm
07:15 Alias_ They are building the first one in country .au
07:16 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
07:16 Alias_ Biggest building in the world, once it's up
07:16 Alias_ And conveniently, it's also a food source
07:17 castaway howso?
07:17 Alias_ It's a giant greenhouse at the base
07:17 theorbtwo Hm, interesting looking idea.
07:17 castaway cool
07:17 Alias_ So for the outer third or so of the covered area, you can grow fruit and stuff
07:18 theorbtwo It's very interesting to me how almost all different forms of electric generation are just different ways of creating pressure in a fluid to move turbines.
07:18 theorbtwo IIRC, normal solar is pretty much the only one that isn't.
07:19 Alias_ only because we can build massive kinetic->electric converters
07:19 Alias_ And it's hard to build any other type of converter
07:19 Alias_ I imagine it would be hard to scale solar panels to hundreds of megawatts
07:21 jabbot pugs - 1426 - Recommend Perl6::Bible installation
07:22 mugwump Darren_Duncan: are you planning to convert all the Makefile.PLs in modules/ ?
07:24 Corion Aaaah - I'm stupid - I just had a revelation why my tests fail on freebsd. "print" is a builtin for some shells, I guess.
07:25 Corion But I don't have time now :(
07:25 Corion I think using -e "print" should fix it (over using the bareword print on the command  line"
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07:26 Corion anyway - have a nice day
07:28 castaway have fun Corion!
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07:35 ingy what is $^O on windows?
07:35 autrijus MSWin32 or cygwin or mingw
07:35 autrijus or msdos for weird people
07:35 ingy tanks
07:36 autrijus machine guns
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07:37 ingy autrijus: what should `p6bible -v` currently print
07:38 castaway whats p6bible?
07:38 ingy Perl6::Bible on cpan
07:39 ingy perldocish support for perl6
07:39 autrijus ingy: list the version from each pods
07:39 autrijus or svn rev from the svn.perl.org pull
07:40 autrijus or the generated date
07:40 autrijus or all above
07:40 ingy hmm sounds like work :P
07:40 autrijus pick whatever seems easy and nice for you :)
07:40 Darren_Duncan ping mugwump
07:41 autrijus I think the gen date for PErl6::Bible dist itself
07:41 autrijus makes sense already.
07:41 Darren_Duncan I was away from comp for an hour
07:42 Darren_Duncan I tossed the idea of converting all the Makefile.PL in /modules but then said I wouldn't after all
07:42 ingy autrijus: ok
07:42 Darren_Duncan one result of that discussion is that we don't actually want to bring Makemaker to perl 6, but do something better instead
07:42 Darren_Duncan afterwards, makefiles can target that
07:43 Darren_Duncan invoke that
07:43 Darren_Duncan also, numerous makefiles were non-trivial in content, so I thought it would be better for those who ported the modules they are associated with to port them
07:43 Darren_Duncan so I only ported the ones for my own modules
07:44 Darren_Duncan but even those need changing once we have a working replacement for Makemaker to invoke
07:45 Darren_Duncan right at this moment, I'm writing the new SYNOPSIS doc for SRT
07:45 ingy we can refactor when we have better tools. for now Pugs::MakeMaker is fine
07:46 Darren_Duncan Pugs::MakeMaker is not written in Perl 6, is it?
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07:46 ingy not currently
07:47 autrijus we'll get there when we get there :)
07:47 Darren_Duncan then a Perl 6 module config file can't invoke it, can it
07:47 Darren_Duncan ?
07:47 theorbtwo It could eval_perl5('...'), but most builds can't do that.
07:48 Darren_Duncan by 'most builds', do you mean that ability is platform specific right now?
07:49 Darren_Duncan even then, I use 'VERSION_FROM' in my makefiles, and PREREQ_PM ...
07:49 Darren_Duncan for both of those, the Makemaker will have to extract version numbers from the Perl 6 modules to associate them
07:50 Darren_Duncan I think that, in the short term, a solution would be to have a Perl 6 MakeMaker that is mostly a shell around the Perl 5 one;
07:50 autrijus version_from needs to be fixed to track p6 module lines
07:50 autrijus if it had not already do so.
07:51 autrijus which I think ingy has already done the parsing part for SHA1
07:51 autrijus (I think)
07:51 Darren_Duncan the Perl 6 version would load/examine the Makefile.PLs and the modules themselves, extracting necessary info ...
07:51 Darren_Duncan then invoke the Perl 5 module to actually create the 'Makefile'
07:52 Darren_Duncan then the only 5 to 6 bridge is in the core helper module, and nothing in /modules has to know about perl 5
07:52 autrijus I think it makes sense even tho that means we'll have to system() perl5
07:52 autrijus would you make it so?
07:53 Darren_Duncan I can consider attempting to do that tomorrow, but no promises yet
07:53 autrijus sure =)
07:53 autrijus Darren_Duncan++
07:54 Darren_Duncan theoretically the task is simple ...
07:54 autrijus theory and practice is the same thing in theory :)
07:54 autrijus (but not in practice)
07:54 castaway *g*
07:54 Darren_Duncan but I haven't actually hacked MakeMaker before so I'll have to research to know what I'm doing
07:55 ingy Darren_Duncan: if you write me an email of what to do I can do it for you
07:55 Darren_Duncan I'll have to work through it, then I could write you tomorrow
07:55 ingy ok
07:56 Darren_Duncan fyi, I should be able to write the necessary perl 6 based on the synopsis, but I'm not sure if Pugs will have implemented the necessary parts ... even if I don't make it object oriented
07:57 Darren_Duncan eg, does Pugs currently know about the middle part of a module name?
07:57 CDybedahl has joined #perl6
07:57 Darren_Duncan the 'number'
07:59 Khisanth write it anyway and wait for the features to be implemented? :)
08:01 Darren_Duncan If I said 'require Foo' and then later said 'my $version = Foo.meta.version()', will I then hold the module's declared version?
08:01 Darren_Duncan Khisanth, I hear you
08:01 Darren_Duncan I think I will write a brief note to p6c now to announce my intentions
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08:16 Darren_Duncan check your p6c mail now, the posting is in
09:15 Juerd Is Thomas Sandlass right that values have identity?
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10:30 wolverian oh, we require GHC 6.4 now? ouch.
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10:54 shapr Juerd: what did thomas sandlass say?
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11:11 Juerd shapr: That =:= tests value identity equality
11:12 Juerd Which IMHO (a) makes no sense in Perl and (b) would mean values have identity, which in turn implies that references point to values, not variables, which in turn means that after $foo = new value, \$foo has changed...
11:12 Juerd This all makes sense in a Python world
11:12 Juerd Not in ours
11:15 theorbtwo Hmm.
11:16 theorbtwo ghc-6.4: panic! (the `impossible' happened, GHC version 6.4): Maybe.fromJust: Nothing
11:16 * theorbtwo tries again from "make clean"
11:18 theorbtwo Alright, compiles OK that way.
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13:02 drbean I don't have readline support although I have Term::ReadLine::Gnu
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13:12 drbean I installed it after making pugs however.
13:12 drbean Do I have to make pugs clean?
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13:35 autrijus so I committed some work from the past hour.
13:35 autrijus * Threads. Sockets. Namespaces. Perl6::MakeMaker. pugscc now runs everywhere. template haskell is now optional.
13:35 autrijus also see examples/httpd.p6
13:35 autrijus dinner, bbiab &
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13:36 * nothingmuch 's jaw clunks on the floor
13:37 nothingmuch and to think, all i've done this weekend is read some tldp howtos and try to get lvm and raid to get along
13:40 integral ghc 6.4 is now required?
13:40 yinjieh 6.4 !!
13:40 nothingmuch yes, iirc
13:41 yinjieh mm
13:41 jabbot pugs - 1427 - * Threads. Sockets. Namespaces. Perl6::M
13:46 wolverian Juerd: I don't really understand why p6 keeps around the reference-based idiom. I like how ruby does this. :)
13:48 Alias_ wolverian: Because then Perl probably wouldn't be Perl?
13:48 wolverian Alias_: I'm not sure.
13:49 wolverian Alias_: do you think so?
13:49 Alias_ Arbitrary referencing is a heavily used Perl feature
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13:58 wolverian Alias_: oh, I don't mean that. it just feels weird that 'my $foo = @bar;' would put a reference into $foo, not the object itself.
13:59 Alias_ how could the object itself go in?
14:03 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
14:05 wolverian Alias_: I don't know. :) the way ruby does it! (although it copies.)
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14:05 wolverian oh well, I'm pretty confused about this.
14:05 Alias_ heh
14:05 Alias_ So are most of us still
14:09 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
14:09 shapr yow!
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14:17 shapr Juerd: (lambda x:x + 1) != (lambda x:x + 1) because == compares memory addresses.
14:17 shapr In Python, that is.
14:17 shapr Once you can create function values, value equality gets harder.
14:19 shapr Juerd: In fact, that problem gets so hard it has its own name - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entscheidungsproblem
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14:22 masak i created a game the other day which explores this problem
14:22 shapr oh tell me more!
14:23 masak it's called "horseplay"
14:23 shapr How does it work?
14:23 masak players take turn creating five entities
14:23 masak syntax, semantics, walls, programs and inputs
14:23 masak syntax+semantic=language and program+input=horse
14:24 masak the game is won by the one who creates an unbroken wall (for a sufficiently long period of time) for a rich language
14:24 shapr How do you create those entities?
14:24 masak by defining them
14:25 shapr Do you have logs of example games?
14:25 masak never played
14:25 masak not even examples
14:25 masak the rules are still a bit shaky
14:25 shapr Well, this is a great time to try it out.
14:25 masak i agree
14:26 masak if you give me your email we might discuss it further
14:26 shapr I am [email@hidden.address]
14:26 masak thx
14:26 masak the rules are in swedish right now but i can translate them
14:26 shapr And I have TMDA spam protect, so emails bounce the first time unless I whitelist you address ahead of time.
14:27 masak ok, i am [email@hidden.address]
14:27 shapr Det är okej. Jag kan forstår lite svenska.
14:27 masak sedär
14:27 masak then i'll send the rules as they are
14:27 shapr Bor du i sverige?
14:27 masak uppsala
14:27 shapr Ah, inte så nära. Jag bor i Boden.
14:28 shapr Och jag kommer från USA, så min svenska är nästan skit.
14:28 shapr Jag borjade att lära mig svenska två år innan.
14:28 masak so far it's perfect, at least the written aspect of it
14:29 shapr I can never get that part right about "I began in two years" that means "It was two years ago and it continues"
14:29 shapr I know one of those prepositions means "it's over now" and one means "it continues still"
14:29 masak verb tenses are screwed up in swedish
14:30 masak but one only realises it when one learns a language where they are sensible
14:30 shapr Most languages are screwed up. But Swedish has some nice features.
14:30 masak such as?
14:31 shapr I really like "sin". If I say "Shae drove his car." it could be masak's care that I drove. but with "Shae kör sin bil.", we *know* it's Shae's car.
14:31 shapr I also like the way 'gång' is separate from 'tid'
14:31 shapr 'one time' can mean both of those in English.
14:31 metaperl shapr, do you mind telling us how you migrated from Birmingham, Alabama, USA to Sweden?
14:31 metaperl and why your named changed?
14:31 shapr I met this woman on ICQ. (50,000 words omitted) and now I live in Sweden.
14:32 masak shapr: 'gång' is separate from 'tid' in most languages i know
14:32 shapr metaperl: But a few years before that, I got bored with my name.
14:32 masak and 'sin' has a counterpart in french
14:32 shapr So I changed it.
14:34 masak what i would like to see is 'gånger' (occasion) separated from 'gånger' (mathematical operation). but i suspect that's just me.
14:35 shapr metaperl: Seriously though, I wanted a name that really describes me.
14:37 shapr I've noticed that the larger long-term effect a decision will have, the longer I should think about it. So I thought about it for a few years. I really wanted to change my name when I was 21, but I waited till I was 27 to actually do it.
14:38 shapr masak: what's the mathematical operation? Finns inte i min lexicon.
14:38 masak 2 * 4 = 8
14:38 shapr Oh. Easy enough.
14:38 metaperl what's the story with this: http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/yogi.jpg
14:38 shapr That's Yoggi Toulouse, famous French unicyclist.
14:39 shapr I think he's convinced he can fly a unicycle anywhere.
14:39 metaperl oh my god
14:39 metaperl is he balanced like that or about to jump off?
14:39 shapr He didn't land that one, but he did land it the next time.
14:39 shapr He's in the air.
14:40 shapr You can see that guy's foot between his wheel and whatever that is...
14:41 shapr My unicycle skillz are significantly smaller - http://www.scannedinavian.com/images/uni-hop.jpg
14:41 masak shapr: i've noticed that the larger impact a decision will have, the *easier* it is to make. though i have never understood why it feels like that.
14:42 shapr masak: I think that's because for those sorts of decisions, it's easy to know if you made the right choice.
14:43 shapr I've never wanted to unchange my name, and have always remained thrilled to have the name I chose.
14:44 shapr metaperl: If you're interested in unicycling, there's a whole culture of short unicycle films, of which I have a few - http://thunderbird.scannedi​navian.com/~shae/unifilms/
14:45 masak shapr: it seems that it is possible to know that choices were the right ones even when one doesn't know the rationale behind them.
14:46 shapr metaperl: This is my favorite! - http://thunderbird.scannedinavian.com​/~shae/unifilms/11_Au_TAQUET_10Mo.wmv
14:46 shapr masak: yeah, I agree.
14:46 shapr Intuitive thinking can be right without needing rationale.
14:50 Alias_ Unicycling has a culture?
14:50 shapr Sure, lotsa.
14:51 shapr Mountain unicycling is my favorite. But the other largest subsections are road, trials, and technical with like trials and mountain together.
14:54 shapr If you know anything about mountain bike tires, I have a 24" 35.1mm wide Alex DX32 rim with a 3" Duro Wildlife tire on my unicycle. But I'm upgrading to a 65mm wide Large Marge rim next month.
14:54 shapr Anyway, back to the topic at hand =) What's good for lambdafolk to do for the puppy?
14:54 Alias_ pet it
14:55 * shapr pets Pugs.
14:57 shapr so, theorbtwo said "set HARNESS_PERL and PERl6LIB, then run perl utils/yaml_harness.pl, then perl utils/testgraph.pl > testgraph.html" What values should I set for HARNESS_PERL and PERL6LIB ?
14:59 shapr masak: I use a lot of intuitive thinking, obviously without knowing how it works. I wonder if there's any research into intuition. Maybe it's subconscious thought?
14:59 shapr masak: Har du skickat reglarna till mig?
14:59 Alias_ There research into the brains "computation-restricted mode"
14:59 Alias_ There is ...
15:00 Alias_ There's a funny mode the brain goes into when it realises it has to make a decision without sufficient time to work it out properly
15:00 Alias_ "Knee-jerk reaction" type stuff. It uses very limited indicators to come to a conclusion that is correct 95% of the time or so
15:01 shapr Any keywords I can google?
15:01 Alias_ not off the top of my head
15:01 masak shapr: i just clicked "send"
15:02 masak shapr: what happens once we understand intuition? will it still be intuition?
15:02 shapr I think so. I'd guess it'd be like programming languages without reflection.
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15:02 masak lol
15:03 shapr I think the process of programming works like that for me sometimes. Total zen, no real 'consciousness' of what I'm doing.
15:03 masak that's flow
15:03 Alias_ oh, there's an article on that in New Scientist this week
15:03 shapr So maybe intuition is like flow?
15:03 masak maybe
15:03 masak but flow has to do with actions
15:03 shapr Can you have flow with reflection?
15:03 masak intuition has to do with congnition
15:04 shapr Is cognition an action?
15:04 masak i think flow and reflection are sort of opposites
15:04 masak but i don't know
15:04 shapr I'd argue that programming flow involves cognition.
15:04 masak yes, a very basic form of it
15:05 masak i had to comb through the rules to update them in light of the latest developments in my head
15:05 * shapr cogitates on that.
15:05 masak parts of them may not make sense
15:06 shapr Om kan jag inte forstår, ska du veta.
15:06 Alias_ ... or was it scientific american..
15:06 masak shapr: any feedback is appreciated
15:06 Alias_ They classified the 4 main properties needed for creativeness
15:06 Alias_ or "flow"
15:06 shapr masak: btw, do I reverse the subject and verb like that if I have a preposition at the beginning of a sentence?
15:07 shapr I like pair programming, group flow is different from single flow. More powerful in some ways, less powerful in others.
15:07 Alias_ I like the idea of someone correcting the spelling mistakes in my comments :)
15:08 masak shapr: no. "om jag inte kan förstå". negations come into play somehow, i cannot formalise it properly.
15:08 shapr Ok, I'll check out the grammar book I have around here somewhere.
15:09 stevan threads??? sockets??
15:09 stevan wow
15:09 masak shapr: the phrase would be "om jag kan förstå" if you were talking about the opposite situation.
15:12 masak or just "kan jag förstå"/"kan jag inte förstå" as shorter variants, but still conditionals
15:15 stevan nothingmuch: ping
15:15 nothingmuch pong
15:15 stevan hey nothingmuch
15:15 * nothingmuch is fighiting the dichotomy that is linux raid/lvm
15:15 nothingmuch can
15:15 nothingmuch beh
15:15 nothingmuch can't resize a raid1 device on two LVs
15:15 nothingmuch =(
15:15 stevan what do you know about these threads, sockets and namespace things?
15:16 stevan nothingmuch: does not sound like fun :)
15:16 nothingmuch that autrijus said 'oh btw, i did all that'
15:16 nothingmuch and then went to dinner
15:16 stevan :)
15:16 stevan ok
15:16 stevan I guess I will wait for the journal
15:16 nothingmuch examples/httpd.p6
15:16 nothingmuch he mentioned that
15:16 stevan has this stuff  been speced out by perl6l? or is he just mapping the haskell stuff
15:17 stevan yeah I looked at that very cool
15:17 nothingmuch no clue
15:17 nothingmuch hah
15:18 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
15:18 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
15:18 stevan ok :)
15:18 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "lambda silliness" (5 lines, 221B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8878
15:18 nothingmuch crap, copy paste madness
15:18 stevan :)
15:19 nothingmuch prepend: "A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by turning the power off and on..."
15:19 stevan thats my usual Windows fix
15:21 stevan oh well
15:21 stevan autrijus: when you journal tonight, please give details on the namespace stuff, I am very interested in knowing more :)
15:21 nothingmuch reboot reboot reboot
15:22 stevan have fun with your raid nothingmuch :)
15:22 nothingmuch =(
15:22 stevan I am off to do errands in the dirt world
15:22 nothingmuch i hope that LVM can do mirroring without sw raid
15:22 nothingmuch i don't even care about performance
15:23 nothingmuch gah!  umount -f /mnt/test/
15:23 nothingmuch umount2: Device or resource busy
15:23 nothingmuch dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/md0 seemed to help it out
15:24 kolibrie has joined #perl6
15:24 nothingmuch no
15:24 nothingmuch *whine*
15:24 putter has joined #perl6
15:29 kolibrie autrijus: looks like the darcs repository hasn't sync'ed up for a day or two
15:30 obra http://127.0.0.1
15:30 autrijus it's a 404
15:30 obra mischan
15:30 autrijus kolibrie: resyncing
15:30 kolibrie autrijus: thanks
15:33 kolibrie off topic - can any debian mutt users recommend packages I need to see non-English fonts?
15:34 kolibrie I have locale set to UTF-8, but no font package yet has seemed to do anything
15:36 putter i was thinking of starting the day by smashing together the [SEA]\d\d.html docs, interleaved, common index, colored by age, mixin mechanism for definitive emails, so I could easily see the current state of things.  thoughts?
15:37 autrijus putter: talk to ingy, the maintainer of Perl6::Bible
15:37 autrijus putter: you may wish to polish Perl6::Bible into that
15:37 autrijus that'd be a great serice
15:37 autrijus service
15:39 putter tnx
15:42 obra autrijus: http://permalink.gmane.org/gma​ne.comp.lang.lightweight/3240
15:42 autrijus Perl6::Bible is on cpan too
15:42 autrijus a new release just hit pause
15:42 autrijus obra: yeah, #haskell loved it
15:44 Alias_ What's in it?
15:44 Alias_ ah, all the docs
15:46 tmoertel` has joined #perl6
15:48 autrijus kolibrie: are we up to date?
15:48 autrijus darcs I mean
15:48 autrijus hi tmoertel!
15:49 kolibrie autrijus: pulling now
15:49 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:51 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
15:51 kolibrie autrijus: darcs looks much better now, thanks
15:53 autrijus :)
15:54 kolibrie I have a test for "for @list { $_++ }" and "for @list -> $num is rw { $num++ }"
15:54 kolibrie should I put those in t/statements/for.t?
15:55 kolibrie or are the "rw" things collected somewhere better?
15:59 kolibrie put them in t/statements/for.t -r 1428
16:01 autrijus ok.
16:01 jabbot pugs - 1430 - * thread is now toplevel value.
16:01 jabbot pugs - 1429 - * "{ block }" in qq and rx was eating tr
16:01 jabbot pugs - 1428 - added tests for rw for statements - for
16:02 ingy hola
16:02 pupilzeng has left "See you!"
16:02 ingy we are moving pugs modules to freepan and we need to know who is the primary maintainer of each module
16:02 autrijus a forking web server and a web service client!
16:03 Alias_ maintainer in what context...
16:03 Alias_ I own Config::Tiny and Algorithm::Dependency, but I sure as hell don't maintain the P6 versions
16:03 obra will this mean that "primary" authors will have to grant other authors access?
16:03 Alias_ And they probably don't track changes to the original
16:04 autrijus ingy: I say we list the first committer of a given module as owner
16:04 ingy fine
16:04 autrijus and list all committers on them as committers
16:04 Alias_ This is going to really screw up copyright assignations :)
16:04 Alias_ Mass re-"owner"ship
16:06 mugwump ownership means less in the face of per-author namespaces, so there's no need to be particular about it...
16:06 mugwump "first come first served" no longer :)
16:06 lwhsu_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:06 Alias_ BTW, how does that translate to "official" module names?
16:07 Alias_ I'm presuming we don't have to learn and remember the author of every single module...
16:07 mugwump via QA team(s)
16:07 Alias_ So CPAN will be told that there's an official MUGWUMP::File::Spec -> File::Spec alias? :)
16:07 mugwump ie, QA teams will be responsible for grouping sets of modules together that they think are a good set.  To kill off the flamewars etc
16:08 autrijus Alias_: right, actually PAUSE maintains that already
16:08 autrijus as the index
16:08 Alias_ right
16:08 mugwump Why is File::Spec always the example here?  ;)
16:08 Alias_ Because it's so darned useful
16:08 autrijus sure.
16:08 mugwump use File::Spec-(Any)-freepan:mugwump
16:08 Alias_ So if I fork CPAN::Mini (like I did for CPAN::Processor) in P6 I juse release my version of CPAN::Mini, and my code uses the explicitly named one?
16:09 obra freepan:?
16:09 * obra suspects those should end up as uris in the end
16:09 mugwump sorry, I meant jerkit:
16:09 autrijus eh what.
16:09 autrijus Alias_: yes.
16:09 autrijus Alias_: that is exactly the idea.
16:09 autrijus basically you can freely fork things locally
16:10 Alias_ And then when QA decides to handover, they just do a namespace toggle?
16:10 autrijus see S11
16:10 autrijus that may be the case. there may be multiple QA teams.
16:10 autrijus like, your company may set up its own index
16:11 Alias_ So I take it that the "request to be on the module list" will actually mean something now?
16:11 jabbot pugs - 1431 - * httpd client and server examples
16:12 autrijus Alias_: exactly!
16:12 Alias_ It's been quite nice to have things fairly free-form in regards to "adding" modules
16:12 autrijus yup
16:12 autrijus there can be a first-come-first-serve index
16:12 Alias_ But those initial names people pick, ew
16:12 autrijus maintained by cpan or somebody else
16:12 autrijus but I fully expect people move away from it gradually
16:12 * Alias_ caught China::IDCard::Validate or something the other day
16:12 autrijus esp. now we can install multiple modules with the same name.
16:12 autrijus or even alias them locally
16:13 * Alias_ still worries
16:13 autrijus so you can install 10 File::Spec locally
16:13 Alias_ But then I'm a worrier
16:13 autrijus and your local site policy determines which one to use.
16:13 autrijus sure =)
16:13 Alias_ As long as it works for the brain dead, I don't care
16:13 autrijus :D
16:14 Alias_ With this damned perl jobs boom, it's hard enough as it is
16:14 * Alias_ beats the Lowest Possible Barrier to Entry drum
16:14 BigBear has joined #perl6
16:14 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
16:15 Alias_ autrijus: Have you seen the recent jobs.perl.org stats?
16:15 autrijus no. eh?
16:15 Alias_ It's a BOOM I tell ya
16:16 Alias_ see magnet #perl topic
16:16 obra s/boom/bubble/
16:16 tmoertel autrijus: hi! (belatedly returning your hi from earlier)
16:19 * autrijus wonders if [email@hidden.address] is a freepan id.
16:19 autrijus then, [email@hidden.address] is another
16:19 * autrijus pushes for email-based ids
16:19 obra that sounds like a much better plan.
16:19 autrijus but if you want to register [email@hidden.address]
16:20 autrijus because we recognize cpan.org
16:20 autrijus we still require them to enter their pause auth
16:20 autrijus just to reduce spamming and save them an email reply
16:20 autrijus (they can do email reply instead.)
16:20 autrijus ingy: sounds like a plan?
16:20 obra why special case it?
16:20 obra just do email auth for everybody. nice and easy
16:20 autrijus well, no, @openfoundry.org can do the same thing
16:20 autrijus it's single sign on
16:21 Alias_ One of these days I should publish my single sign on system
16:21 autrijus there's people who devnulled their @cpan.org
16:21 Alias_ It was really sweet
16:21 autrijus so, don't want them to lose, that's all
16:22 autrijus so current committers can auth with their @openfoundry.org id
16:22 autrijus s/committers/pugs committers/
16:38 iblechbot has joined #perl6
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16:39 nothingmuch yay!
16:39 nothingmuch lvextend /dev/vg/home_0
16:39 nothingmuch lvextend /dev/vg/home_1
16:39 nothingmuch then mdadm --stop /dev/md0
16:39 nothingmuch and mdadm --grow /dev/mdadm -z blah blah blah
16:39 nothingmuch reboot
16:40 nothingmuch and resizefs
16:40 pjcj autrijus: How does the Eval.hs refactoring stand - is that still the plan?
16:40 nothingmuch yayayayayayaaay!
16:59 autrijus pjcj: you mean moving to gen IMC?
16:59 autrijus yes that is still the plan.
17:01 jabbot pugs - 1433 - * be properly HTTPish
17:01 jabbot pugs - 1432 - Oops! Inheritance is spelled "is", not "
17:02 autrijus so, examples/network/ is there
17:02 autrijus anyone want to work on socket tests and/or a LWP clone?
17:11 jabbot pugs - 1434 - * probe readline for real
17:18 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:25 Corion has joined #perl6
17:25 Corion re
17:26 autrijus yo Corion
17:26 Corion hi autrijus
17:26 autrijus Corion: seen http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/network/ ?
17:26 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:26 jabbot autrijus: I havn't seen http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/network/ , autrijus
17:26 * Corion installs GHC 6.4
17:26 Corion autrijus: nope, just returned
17:26 Corion jabbot: :)))
17:26 jabbot Corion: That is interesting. Please continue.
17:27 autrijus Corion: cool. I have this feeling that you'll like them
17:27 Corion autrijus: That sure looks _very_ interesting indeed!
17:27 autrijus and they even work!
17:27 * Corion installs GHC 6.4 at double speed
17:27 Corion autrijus: Let's see if they work on Win32 :)
17:27 autrijus good. I need someone to test that :)
17:28 Corion Ooooo - Haskell has "async()" - so it's likely they work on Win32. The joy of coroutines :)
17:28 Corion ... Oh - no, async() is a thread. Also good.
17:28 autrijus using real OS threads.
17:28 autrijus we can use a Posix fork as well
17:28 autrijus but I think lightweight threads is the way to go
17:29 autrijus for the moment
17:29 Corion Grr. Why is the haskell.org GHC a .msi file ? That means I can't install it at work :( But at least at home ...
17:30 Corion autrijus: True. But in any way, that means that LWP has to come now! ;-)
17:31 autrijus yes!
17:32 * Corion looks forward to real, easy, convenient http/1.1 support and multiple connections :)
17:33 xerox Is there any text about perl6?
17:33 metaperl xerox, you mean a printed text?
17:33 metaperl Perl6Now.com
17:33 metaperl by scrottie is one
17:34 xerox I want something to try in pugs :)
17:34 Corion xerox: Port a module :)
17:34 Corion xerox: Or write tests
17:34 Corion xerox: Both are good exercises to learn Perl6 :)
17:34 metaperl xerox, read through the examples and test suite
17:34 xerox I mean, I know a bit of perl5, but I just know "say" in perl6 :)
17:34 metaperl I learned about slurpy lists yesterday
17:34 metaperl learn about slurpy lists
17:34 xerox slurpy lists?
17:35 metaperl right here: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/synopsis/S06.html
17:35 metaperl also see examples/fp.p6 in the pugs distro
17:36 Corion Ah - GHC isn't officially called Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compiler :)
17:38 Corion ... is anybody working on an LWP::Simple port ? I think LWP::Simple is the best start, LWP can be fudged behind LWP::Simple later on :)
17:39 autrijus why is it not officially called?
17:39 autrijus $ ghc --version
17:39 autrijus The Glorious Glasgow Haskell Compilation System, version 6.4
17:39 Corion autrijus: The installer didn't call it that, so I presumed :)
17:39 autrijus Corion: no, please start it :)
17:39 autrijus Corion++ # in advance
17:39 Corion autrijus: I will :)
17:39 Corion autrijus: Aaah, nooes! You
17:40 Corion autrijus: Aaah, nooes! You're piling responsibility on me :)
17:40 * Corion does "make test" and hopes his tests still succeed on Win32
17:41 jabbot pugs - 1435 - * do not build threaded if there is no t
17:42 Corion . o O (... and here I was, thinking I'd port my broken "make" module to Perl6, to fix it in the process... And then sockets come along ...)
17:42 autrijus "make" is also good :)
17:42 autrijus ruby has Rake.
17:42 autrijus I'm jealous.
17:42 Corion autrijus: But sockets are so much more fun !
17:43 autrijus that, too
17:43 autrijus I'm fine with either :)
17:43 Corion If anybody wants to adopt and fix a broken module, http://corion.net/perl-dev/Make-PurePerl.html ( "Make::Naive" ) needs some tender loving!
17:43 Corion autrijus: Maybe I do LWP::Simple today and Make::Naive tomorrow :)
17:44 autrijus yay
17:45 Corion changes topic to: Under no circumstances collapse your lambacamel duality | pugscode.org <<Overview Journal>> | pugs.kwiki.org | logged: http://xrl.us/e98m | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | win2k:r1434(228/3851) Linux:r1302(193/3383) MacOSX:r1342(189/3478)
17:49 mugwump PLEASE NOTE ::Simple, ::Lite, etc are all considered GAY in Perl 6
17:49 autrijus please note that gay means happiness and fun
17:49 mugwump PLEASE NOTE: I have beer
17:49 autrijus ah. that explains
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18:03 autrijus hmm 40 commits today
18:07 Corion Is there anything other than .readline() to read from a handle? I could set (the Perl6 equivalent of) $/ and then use readline, but I'd prefer to read a fixed length... Hmmm - do I really?
18:09 Corion Grrr. Google gives me no love. What is the equivalent to $/ in Perl6 ? Header parsing is nicely done by =$hdl , if I can set $/ correctly ...
18:10 mugwump see docs/S28draft.pod
18:11 jabbot pugs - 1439 -
18:11 jabbot pugs - 1438 - Add README for those looking
18:11 jabbot pugs - 1437 - Getting a little way through converting
18:11 jabbot pugs - 1436 - Add working drafts S28, S29
18:12 * Corion does svn up
18:12 mugwump Actually all it says is that they're methods on filehandles now
18:13 autrijus hi Corion.
18:13 autrijus what do you want? :)
18:13 autrijus input record reparator props?
18:13 autrijus separator
18:13 Corion autrijus: I'm just reading S28 - I want to set $/ to "\012\015" to read in HTTP headers in a convenient way
18:14 Corion ... not yet looked into S28 closely
18:14 autrijus what we we, say, use slurp()?
18:15 osfameron has joined #perl6
18:15 autrijus see http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Slurp/Slurp.pm
18:15 Corion Ooooo ! Thanks!
18:16 * Corion wonders how he'll port the nice syntax of Perl6::Slurp
18:16 Corion (or rather, how to make the syntax nice)
18:17 pjcj I wonder how Perl6 will do $/ = \10
18:18 autrijus implementing slurp($hdl) now
18:18 autrijus done
18:18 mugwump FILEHANDLE.eol("\010") or somesuch
18:18 autrijus mugwump: no, that's size
18:20 mugwump right - \10, not "\10"
18:20 Corion mugwump: Thanks for thinking ahead! Content-Size: handling is simplified through that! :)
18:21 autrijus Corion: it's in; see the new http-client.p6
18:21 autrijus I imagine it makes your life simpler
18:21 Corion autrijus: :)
18:21 jabbot pugs - 1440 - * slurp($hdl)
18:22 Corion Is there $hdl.irs ? I'd like to say $hdl.irs = rx:perl5/\015?\012\015?\012/;  # :-))
18:22 autrijus argh rx irs
18:22 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:23 autrijus p5 doesn't do that
18:23 Corion autrijus: I thought Perl6 was finally making Perl better than awk ? :))))
18:23 Corion autrijus: Otherwise I have to fake it like LWP::Simple fakes it as well ;)
18:23 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:23 autrijus yup
18:23 Corion ... or make the \015 required instead of optional
18:27 Corion Is ~= the string concatenation/assignment operator now ? $buffer ~= $hdl.read() ?
18:28 autrijus aye
18:28 Corion Yay. I know Perl6.
18:31 autrijus I'm doing split($rx, $string) for you
18:33 autrijus done.
18:33 Corion autrijus: Hugs
18:33 Corion You're just like a mother to me
18:33 autrijus :D
18:34 autrijus I think it works reasonably well
18:34 autrijus clever code and tests welcome
18:35 Corion autrijus: I guess that my code can serve as a smoke test :)
18:37 autrijus cool :)
18:40 Corion How do I export stuff from my module?
18:40 Corion Gah. Found it - "is export"
18:40 autrijus "is export"
18:41 jabbot pugs - 1442 - * fix show() class for Symbol
18:41 jabbot pugs - 1441 - * split(rx:perl5/.../, $string)
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19:02 Corion Ah hah. With GHC 6.4, theorbtwos testgraph matcher won't throw the errors as with GHC 6.4, the output matches his regex :)
19:03 autrijus that is a good thing?
19:03 autrijus :)
19:04 Corion autrijus: Well, I won't get lotsalotsa error messages on the console when I update my test matrix :)
19:04 autrijus journal up.
19:04 autrijus partially summarized only
19:04 autrijus too tired
19:04 autrijus must sleep :)
19:04 Corion Who is working on Test.pm ? Because I'd like use_ok() in it :)
19:04 autrijus just add it.
19:04 Corion autrijus: Sleep well - dream of lambdas :)
19:04 autrijus &
19:04 autrijus nite!
19:05 Corion autrijus: Yeah, but I don't want to get sidetracked :)
19:05 Corion good night, autrijus
19:06 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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19:13 putter what docs are people using to write p6?  Snn.pods.  And the two drafts.  Are E&A still helpful?  Perl6:: pods.  What else?
19:14 kcwu Perl6::Bible
19:15 putter basically i'm taking a few hours to pick up and massage docs.  eg, all S\d\d.pods into a single synopses.pod, etc.
19:17 putter anyone have a cache of "key emails not yet integrated into Snn's"?
19:18 Corion Wooo. I reimplemented examples/network/http-client.p6 :)
19:18 putter kcwu: do you find your using A\d\d and E\d\d, or just or S\d\d? tnx
19:21 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
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19:27 Darren_Duncan good morning campers
19:28 Darren_Duncan my first task this morning is to finish my SYNOPSIS and commit that ...
19:28 Darren_Duncan then I'll start on the makemaker thing
19:31 pjcj I've not been fully following this - are you planning to port MakeMaker to Perl6?
19:32 Darren_Duncan see my p6c announcement yesterday
19:32 * Odin-LAP advocates turning makemaker into something that doesn't need make, and can serve as a generic building system. ;)
19:32 Darren_Duncan no, not port ...
19:33 Darren_Duncan my short term plan is to have a placeholder that the Makefile.PL in each /modules distro can be written in Perl 6 and invoke
19:33 Darren_Duncan it's to get rid of the last remaining perl 5 in /modules
19:34 Darren_Duncan the placeholder does a bit to scan perl 6 modules but otherwise just turns around and invokes the perl 5 version to do the real work
19:35 Darren_Duncan I do not support keeping makemaker around either ... this is just a quick stopgap measure to work until the replacement is made
19:35 pjcj Darren_Duncan: I read that.  I'm just concerned that the concensus in the Perl5 world seems to be MakeMaker is dead, long live Module::Build.  But it sounds more as though this is to be a stopgap?
19:35 pjcj aha
19:36 Darren_Duncan I agree, makemaker is dead
19:37 Darren_Duncan but it hasn't left the building
19:41 pjcj For me, it sits on a list that includes CGI, File::Spec, File::Find, Date::Manip ...
19:41 pjcj The functionality is required, but I'd prefer to lose the API.
19:42 Darren_Duncan fyi, I wasn't planning to name the replacement shell 'makemaker'
19:42 Corion Odin-LAP: So you want to adopt my module? Great!
19:42 Odin-LAP Corion: :p
19:42 Darren_Duncan it was just a perl 6 thingy that does the right thing to install a module and check its dependencies first
19:43 Corion IMO, neither MakeMaker nor Module::Build are the path to the future, but a shiny new implementation.
19:43 Odin-LAP Shiny new something. :p
19:43 Darren_Duncan on that end, I thought I would make my shell a different name than either of those
19:53 Corion Heh. Filehandles don't close/flush on time. Is that a known bug ? (I think so, but ...)
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20:21 Corion Are there any objections to introducing the -M switch, so -MLWP::Simple works ? :)
20:30 lightstep has joined #perl6
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20:31 jabbot pugs - 1443 - LWP::Simple started; use_ok added to Tes
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20:44 nothingmuch the government should hand out medals for weekend hacking sessions
20:45 nothingmuch especially those of the system administration kind
20:45 * nothingmuch hates computers so much
20:45 Darren_Duncan thats un-fortunate
20:45 shapr I just hate software.
20:45 nothingmuch i hate software too, but i think a bit less
20:45 nothingmuch i know how to fix software much more easily
20:45 nothingmuch too bad they are the best way to get most of what I want done
20:46 Darren_Duncan well ,you know the saying ... things would be a lot easier if one didn't have to be concerned with users
20:47 shapr I've gone on a crusade against stupid software choices the last few years. Hasn't made me popular with some of the people I know.
20:47 nothingmuch anybody know which way mirrorring is done when creating a raid1 on linux? (sw)
20:48 larsen has joined #perl6
20:48 shapr "We'll pay you lots of money to write this medical database in visual basic and J2EE." 'No.' "But it's really lots of money! You'll be making 35,000 a year!" 'No. Why don't you go ${ANATOMICALLY_IMPOSSIBLE_ACT}?'
20:49 nothingmuch 35k? hmmm
20:49 * nothingmuch is making in the order of... *compute*
20:49 Corion shapr: You should have written a compiler that outputs J2EE and VB code from Haskell :)
20:49 nothingmuch 15k
20:50 nothingmuch which is little, due to my lack of experience/education/references/age
20:50 nothingmuch so 35k is not that much, really
20:50 shapr Corion: I did something like that for my first J2EE project, Jython servlets. They had a hissy fit and told me I couldn't use Jython anymore.
20:50 Corion shapr: :))))
20:50 lightstep Corion, would you do it, and be responsible for the dying patients?
20:50 lightstep (vb crashes explorer, etc.)
20:51 nothingmuch ?
20:51 nothingmuch ack
20:51 Corion lightstep: The code quality would be better with code generated via Haskell :)
20:51 shapr It was a student medical database for 200,000 college students in Finland.
20:51 nothingmuch lightstep: do you have a day job yet? or are you still busy with the army stuff?
20:51 shapr No death involved, happily.
20:51 jabbot pugs - 1445 - Added tests for anonymous classes.
20:51 jabbot pugs - 1444 - added -MModule support
20:52 lightstep i don't have a day job
20:52 shapr I really wish clients would accept solutions in any language, as long as there are several different support providers for that language.
20:53 shapr For example, I wish I could tell my clients that I'm part of a consortium of twenty companies where we all twenty would commit to pick up and maintain the software of the other companies in case of plane crash or other force majeure.
20:54 shapr And then I could write GPL/BSD/etc licensed software and my clients wouldn't have to worry about me screwing them over with obfuscation.
20:54 nothingmuch shapr: what's stopping you? the consortium? or the clients?
20:54 nothingmuch the hypothetical state of thereof, i meant
20:55 shapr It's clients that are stopping me. They're already scared to death that they depend on Zope/Plone and their programmer guys only know Java.
20:55 nothingmuch woo, 3.2G copied, 17 to go!
20:55 * nothingmuch is really saddenned that his two disks must be on the same channel due to physical constraints
20:56 nothingmuch 2mb per second
20:56 nothingmuch =(
20:56 * nothingmuch will steal a longer cable from work tomorrow
20:56 shapr Ya know, that would be interesting. Why isn't there that sort of consortium for lots of languages?
20:56 cognominal has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:56 nothingmuch shapr: there's such a consortium for some languages?
20:57 shapr I don't think so. But, why not?
20:57 cognominal has joined #perl6
20:57 nothingmuch i don't know
20:57 nothingmuch i bet most companies would do that
20:57 nothingmuch it doesn't take clients away
20:57 nothingmuch it provides more value for your money
20:57 shapr There are at least ten people on #haskell whose code I trust enough that I know I could support it.
20:57 nothingmuch it gives a better reputation
20:58 shapr I'd want to have read-only access to all the source repositories for the other companies in my consortium. That wouldn't be a problem for DFSG compatible licenses.
20:59 shapr Yeah, I bet most OSS companies would do that.
20:59 Khisanth <shapr> It's clients that are stopping me. They're already scared to death that they depend on Zope/Plone and their programmer guys only know Java. <- time to start posting wanted ads? :)
21:00 shapr They just requested one or two new plone sites, one of which will be large. So I'm sure I'll have work for the next six or eight months at least. That's rock solid security in the land of self-employment.
21:00 Darren_Duncan if programmers only know one language and aren't willing to learn more, they probably aren't good at programming
21:00 Darren_Duncan a good programmer can handle multiple languges easily
21:01 shapr I agree with you.
21:01 Darren_Duncan the real skills are language independent
21:02 shapr I also wish I didn't work by the hour. I think that limits the quality of my work in some ways.
21:02 Corion shapr: You're doing much with Plone I gather - is it really useful? Or does it require much work on your part?
21:02 Khisanth well most things carry over from one language to another
21:02 shapr Corion: Depends on what you need to do.
21:02 Corion ... as soon as you know more than one (kind of) language
21:02 Khisanth but for some reason people think that just because it's a different language all the things that worked in the other language no longer applied
21:02 Corion shapr: Mostly, I need/want to slap a nice web gui onto a database
21:03 Corion Khisanth: Well, if you only know OO/imperative, then functional is quite the bitch :)
21:03 Corion ... same for Prolog :)
21:03 shapr For some value of easy, that's easy to do in Plone.
21:03 shapr But if you don't already use Zope, or you don't know Python at all, you should try something else.
21:03 Khisanth Corion: I only know OO/imperative and Haskell is turning out to be quite fun :)
21:04 shapr Nowadays, Plone is like emacs, it can do nearly anything, if you know enough about it.
21:04 Corion shapr: I use Python at work, and don't know Zope (beyond some toying around)
21:04 Corion shapr: Yeah - I saw Zope already has users/permissions/stuff, something I'd have to do myself if using Maypole (a/the Perl MVC-web-thingy)
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21:06 shapr There are two layers on top of Zope, Content Management Framework and Plone. CMF is sort of like J2EE, it's a toolkit for workflow, and lots more. Plone is actual realization of the CMF toolkit into an out-of-the-box-usable kind of system.
21:07 Corion shapr: Ah, yes. I think I realize the analogy - for Perl, there also are two incarnations, Maypole (diy web framework) and Catalyst (prebuilt application)
21:07 shapr So, if you can immediately use Plone for what you need right out of the box, then it's great. If you can't use it, and you don't have motivation to learn to modify a large complicated system, you want to look elsewhere.
21:08 xerox sub foo {...}     # Yes, those three dots are part of the actual syntax
21:08 xerox gee.
21:08 shapr Yeah, Catalyst sounds like Plone.
21:09 shapr Plone really can do amazing stuff, and there are lots of add-ons that do more, but it's not easy to learn to modify and extend yourself.
21:09 shapr On the other hand, if you do end up using it for whatever reason, feel free to ask me about it.
21:10 xerox Some perl6 syntax looks neat, too: circumfix for example.
21:11 shapr I get really frustrated doing web development in object oriented languages. All of the OOP webdev I do seems to suffer from huge amounts of state. It's hard to unit test that.
21:11 shapr But I don't know if a purely functional solution would be any better, or if there are powerful solutions that don't have the problems that J2EE and Zope have in common.
21:11 Corion shapr: Yep - unit testing for web apps sucks - which is why I am in the WWW::Mechanize cabal, which eases end-to-end testing :)
21:11 shapr Maybe someone here knows?
21:11 Corion shapr: I dream of continuation-based webservers/webapps
21:12 shapr Yeah, me too.
21:12 Corion shapr: But they have different problems
21:12 shapr Arrows in Haskell can almost do continuation-based webapps.
21:12 shapr What sort of problems?
21:12 xerox UCW!
21:13 shapr Do you need to upgrade references in the continuation? Do you have to decide when to expire the continuations? What does the basic flow look like?
21:13 Corion shapr: Load balancing
21:13 Corion shapr: (or the lack thereof)
21:13 xerox http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/
21:13 Corion xerox: I know :)
21:13 xerox Oh.
21:13 shapr That doesn't sound hard at first thought, what's difficult about load balancing with continuations?
21:13 xerox So why you dream it? :)
21:14 Corion shapr: Expiry isn't that important, but you can't move a continuation between servers (unless you can serialize it, of course)
21:14 shapr That makes sense.
21:14 Corion xerox: Because I'm no Lisp hacker. I prefer to share my ivory towers with other people :)
21:14 Corion shapr: Not that that would really matter for the applications I write :)
21:15 shapr You could round-robin off the clients so that no one server ends up with a high load. Distributed services that each server calls would help that.
21:16 shapr I wonder if Erlang handles continuations and migration of such.
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21:17 Corion shapr: Yep
21:17 Corion shapr: I looked at "E" for a short time, and it promises (ha ha) lots of interesting things, but it has much more focus on authentication/secure distributed computing instead of getting things done :)
21:17 Corion shapr: (among those, migration of processes)
21:18 shapr Yeah, E is nifty.
21:18 shapr Though capability security is its main feature of interest.
21:18 Corion Grrr. want() is not yet implemented ...
21:18 * Corion curses
21:18 shapr What does want() do?
21:19 * shapr looks at the tests
21:19 Corion shapr: Tell me what the caller wanted (boolean/scalar/list/hash/whatever)
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21:19 Corion shapr: So I can return different things based on that (FiniteMap, list, one large string)
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21:21 xerox Where are the builtins defined?
21:21 shapr Prim.hs
21:21 Corion xerox: t/builtins :)
21:21 Corion err - yes, depends on how you look at it :)
21:22 xerox Aren't those the tests?
21:24 Corion xerox: Yes - the tests define what gets implemented :)
21:26 xerox Corion: ok, so where are the actual implementation?
21:26 Corion xerox: Prim.hs
21:28 xerox Thanks.
21:28 shapr I like the pictures on the pugs.kwiki
21:29 Corion shapr: autrijus has a thing for pictures :)
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21:33 shapr Can you explain more about want? I don't quite understand the tests. What does the code { x ?? y :: z } obj_ok_in_scalar do?
21:34 lightstep ?? ::  is the ternary operator (if/then/else)
21:34 Corion shapr: Perl has "context", that is, a subroutine knows what its caller wants
21:35 Corion shapr: want.count == 3 is equivalent to the caller saying take list 3
21:35 Corion err - saying: "take list 3"
21:35 shapr take list 3?
21:35 Corion shapr: Except that there are more contexts than just the number of items wanted. Like "boolean context", "scalar context"
21:35 Corion shapr: Isn't "take" a Haskell function?
21:36 shapr Yes, but I'm missing some of other parts, I think.
21:36 shapr Does that imply that the caller has a list somewhere for the callee to get hold of?
21:36 Corion shapr: Basically, if you say (in Perl) : %hash = function_call(), want.Hash is true within function_call()
21:37 Corion shapr: Yes - I guess it's an implicit parameter (or a global variable, whichever way you look at it)
21:37 shapr oh, you're asking for the type of the variable to which your caller wants to assign your result.
21:37 Corion shapr: Yes
21:37 Corion shapr: You explain it so much clearer than I can ;)
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21:37 shapr I dunno, you understand it =)
21:37 shapr I don't yet...
21:37 Corion shapr: Also, if there is no assignment, but a test, this works too, (boolean context)
21:38 Corion shapr: It's what makes the following things magically work in Perl: @array > 3
21:38 shapr So, count asks for the length of the sequence to which your caller is trying to assign your return value?
21:38 pjcj there seem to be a few contexts missing in the tests
21:38 Corion ... because an array/list, in scalar context, evaluates to the number of its elements
21:38 Corion pjcj: I don't know which contexts will actually exist.
21:39 Corion pjcj: It may well be that I made some contexts up that will never exist. Perl5 only has two contexts, scalar and list
21:39 pjcj Nor do I off the top of my head, but I'm sure I read something somewhere
21:39 Corion (as far as I remember)
21:39 pjcj Perl5 also has void, which is missing here
21:39 shapr That's wild, it's like having multiple sublanguages and you can switch them whenever you want.
21:39 Corion pjcj: Feel free to add the other contexts to the tests :)
21:39 Corion pjcj: Oh, yes, void context!
21:39 * Corion chants "map in void context"
21:40 Corion shapr: ? Perl is a conglomerate of various sublanguages (within sublanguages), yes :)
21:41 pjcj Corion: Right now I'm fighting with WWW::Mechanize and cookies for something that should be deployed on Monday :-(
21:41 Corion pjcj: Ooops
21:41 pjcj but I'll try to remember if no one else does it
21:41 Corion pjcj: In principle, WWW::Mechanize should handle cookie stuff transparently. That is, unless somebody uses JS to set/get/modify cookies.
21:41 pjcj yeah - I want to set one myself in the test
21:41 Corion pjcj: If in doubt, look at HTTP::Recorder (or the FireFox Live HTTP Headers extension) to record what actually gets sent
21:41 jabbot pugs - 1446 - Added head() implementation, waiting for
21:42 shapr So want.count asks for the length of the sequence, right?
21:42 Corion pjcj: Ah... Hmmm - for adding one yourself, I think you have to get a grip on the cookie jar in the $mech object
21:42 pjcj Corion: Right.  The first one works fine - the second doesn't ...
21:42 Corion shapr: Yes - if you do my ($foo,$bar,$baz) = get_foo();   then want.count would be 3
21:43 Corion pjcj: Hmmm. That's weird.
21:43 shapr Can want tell anything more than count and type?
21:44 Corion shapr: What else would you want? I think not, but I'm no P6 designer :)
21:44 Khisanth Corion: wouldn't a void context be a junction of all the other ones?
21:44 Corion Khisanth: No, void must be detectable on its own, because you can save doing some work (like actually saving the result)
21:45 stevan Corion: I wrote tests for use_ok for you :) I will commit in a moment
21:45 Corion stevan++ # writing tests for my crap
21:45 Corion s!crap!code! :))
21:45 stevan Corion: I will document it too :)
21:45 Khisanth Corion: I mean something like if none(list of contexts) {...}
21:46 Corion Khisanth: Ah, yes. I forget that Junction is the name for all of the junctions, any/all/none... (???/conjunction/disjunction)
21:46 Corion Khisanth: But that's an implementation detail :)
21:46 MatthewZ has left
21:47 stevan does anyone think a todo_use_ok function makes sense?
21:47 Khisanth any/all/none/one I think unless that got removed
21:48 Corion stevan: You mean because my "use_ok" is currently only "require_ok" ? I thought of a later, silent upgrade...
21:49 stevan Corion: no, so you can write tests which dont work, but should eventually :)
21:49 Corion stevan: Oooooooo ! :)
21:49 stevan use_ok faking it with require is fine
21:49 stevan because we dont have use now
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21:49 Corion stevan: Yes, that would be nice - or maybe simply listing the modules in PREREQ_PM (except that should have a new name) in Makefile.PL
21:49 stevan (and I always hated require_ok because it didnt handle everything right all the time)
21:49 stevan Corion: done :)
21:50 Corion stevan: I haven't implemented parameters for use_ok yet ... Also my "-M" switch doesn't handle them either.
21:50 Corion Ooo - I have to update the command line help! There are some undocumented switches :)
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21:51 pjcj I think http://dev.perl.org/perl6/rfc/21.html was pretty much endorsed as the definition of the want function in A6.
21:51 Corion Ooops. And my "-M" switch won't work if you try pugs -MModule file. Oh well.
21:53 stevan Corion: I think if you want to pass switches to use_ok you can just add them to the string it evals
21:53 Corion stevan: True :))
21:53 stevan at least for now until we have a read use() function
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21:53 shapr pjcj: thanks
22:01 jabbot pugs - 1447 - Make command line help more like perl5 h
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22:04 Corion Oh - btw, the LWP::Simple tests I added are "live" tests that currently hit my webserver (i.e. the outside internet). I hope that's OK ...
22:05 Khisanth pugs has sockets now?
22:05 Corion Khisanth: Yes!!!!
22:05 Corion Khisanth: Check out examples/network/* and modules/LWP-Simple :)
22:05 * Khisanth hope it doesn't resemble Socket.pm :)
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22:06 Corion Khisanth: No, currently, sockets look just like filehandles. But filehandles look like objects, instead of being special, now :)
22:07 stevan oh, it looks like a by-product of split(//, '...') is that I can write like() for Test.pm
22:07 Khisanth bareword as filehandles is also gone right?
22:07 Corion stevan: Yay! :)
22:07 Corion Khisanth: Barewords are gone, basically :)
22:07 Khisanth subs still need predeclaring to be used without ()?
22:08 * Corion was never a big fan of barewords. But poetry will get harder now.
22:08 Corion Khisanth: I imagine so, yes.
22:10 Corion Ooops. stevan - I think one of my tests needs your todo_use_ok() :) I need File::Spec in it, but it isn't loaded :)
22:10 Corion ... at least when running it through the yaml test harness :)
22:11 stevan Corion: I will commit in a moment,... just writing tests for like() and todo_like()
22:11 Corion stevan++
22:11 stevan Corion++ # for braving LWP :)
22:12 Corion stevan: Only LWP::Simple currently, and only a flakey version :) Only HTTP is supported, and it loads everything into memory. And mirror() isn't there yet.
22:12 Corion Hmmm. I should fake mirror() by making it call getstore() :))
22:12 Corion ... at least until I get head() to work properly in hash context :)
22:14 Khisanth so no LWP::UserAgent?
22:14 Khisanth hmm actually that would require all the HTTP::* stuff
22:15 Corion Khisanth: Not yet.
22:15 Corion Khisanth: I plan on slowly expanding LWP::Simple, because Perl6 allows far more callback based stuff, instead of blindly porting LWP
22:15 Corion Khisanth: But first, I want to learn by taking baby steps with LWP::Simple and seeing what works and what doesn't
22:16 Khisanth LWP::Simple seems like it was never meant for more :P
22:16 Juerd #perl6++  # no mention of /pope/
22:16 * shapr agrees
22:16 Corion Juerd: We talked about Zope earlier. Does that count?
22:16 stevan Corion: its best to take a simple approach
22:17 Corion Khisanth: And if we got LWP::Simple, we can punt on ftp/wget/etc. for CPAN.pm later :)
22:17 Corion stevan: Yep, that's my plan too :))
22:17 Juerd Corion: haha
22:18 stevan The File::Spec port only supports things up to a point
22:18 stevan and it fakes cwd really badly
22:19 Corion stevan: I gotta look at that ...
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22:19 stevan Corion: it's ugly :)
22:19 stevan few things I have learned though
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22:20 stevan 1) arguments are still immutable in most cases
22:20 stevan I tend to hack around that by copying the arg into a lexical
22:20 stevan 2) function return values are still broken for another other than strings and basic arrays
22:21 stevan hashes return as the first pair only in some cases and die in others
22:21 shapr Is there another builtin on which I could model want? Any suggestions?
22:21 stevan Its not unlike coding perl in the early 90s :)
22:21 Corion stevan: Heh - that's a perlish way to fake cwd :) But Haskell should have getcwd. But I don't know how to make an "inline" Haskell extension into a good namespace. But maybe we should make cwd a builtin :)
22:21 Corion shapr: Ugh. Hmmm - not that I know directly...
22:22 Corion stevan: Yes - the spirit of the frontier... :) But this time, we know what's bad and what has stood through the time (and still is bad :) )
22:23 Corion Hmmm. Haskell has getWorkingDirectory(), which would map nicely onto cwd().
22:23 stevan Corion: I agree
22:23 stevan Corion: those little IO functions are easy to hack too
22:23 Corion And I think we've done good things already - cleaned up CGI.pm, abolished the File::Spec syntax, made open() return an object :)
22:24 * Corion looks at Prim.hs to implement __cwd() :)
22:25 stevan Corion: I am actually working on a CGI Hangman game as well :)
22:26 stevan actually we didnt abolish the File::Spec syntax yet :) I figure that I have extracted all the cross platform knowledge out of it though, so it will be easier to do that later on
22:28 stevan Corion: I am commiting right now
22:28 stevan done, r1448
22:28 stevan ok time for dinner, enjoy :)
22:29 xerox Bonne appetit
22:29 Khisanth Corion: so perl6 will have a cwd builtin?
22:30 Corion Khisanth: No. I'm just hacking up a __cwd builtin, which will then be used by File::Spec
22:30 stevan Corion++
22:30 Khisanth Corion: hrm I have always found it strange that I can chdir and chmod but I can't get the cwd :)
22:30 Corion Khisanth: I don't want to take the matter-of-fact changing of Perl6 too far - there are people more capable than I am defining the language :) And Perl6 shouldn't become PHP, the language with 4000 builtins :)
22:31 Corion Khisanth: That's because Unix is crippled when it comes to cwd. getcwd is an expensive system call under Unix.
22:31 Corion ... or used to be.
22:31 shapr There's some extranifty code in Eval.hs
22:31 Corion And Perl is/was Unix-centric
22:31 jabbot pugs - 1448 - tested and documented use_ok(); added to
22:32 Khisanth Corion: well it isn't that I want a few thousand builtin but I do like consistency :)
22:32 Corion shapr: I just noticed. retEmpty is context sensitive - you can look at that for want()
22:33 Corion Khisanth: Ask on p6l maybe. Once I've implemented it, it's just a matter of renaming __cwd() to cwd() :)
22:33 Khisanth so having chdir/chmod/... also in a module along with cwd would seem better
22:34 Corion Hmmm. How dow I get an IO Filepath into a VStr ? ... I have to learn about the Pugs type system, I guess ...
22:35 shapr Probably use liftIO to lift the IO call into the main monad. What's it called, Val?
22:36 Corion shapr: Aah - I've seen liftIO used. I'll try that and see what Haskell tells me ;)
22:37 Corion Yippie :)
22:37 Corion But I didn't export it properly it seems.
22:38 Corion Where other than in Prim.hs do I need to declare a new builtin?
22:38 sri_ has joined #perl6
22:39 shapr declare it, fill it into the really big string at the bottom, and you're done.
22:39 shapr Oh, and *update the tests* as I learned.
22:39 Corion shapr: Hmmm. Then I've made some other error, as Pugs doesn't know about it yet.
22:39 shapr make ?
22:39 Corion shapr: Heh - I need to write the test for it still :)
22:39 Corion shapr: Did that, too :)
22:40 Corion shapr: My "yay" was because Pugs compiled :)
22:40 shapr You sure you put it into initSyms? I forget that quite often.
22:40 shapr As in, I've forgotten that every time so far.
22:40 Corion shapr: I'll check that. And maybe I messed up the param count/type/whatever ... cwd should be an op0
22:41 Corion shapr: I mostly copied the prototype of time(), so I should be fine with that (except changing Int to Str)
22:41 shapr Yeah, good choice.
22:42 Corion Bah. The parser doesn't seem to like my __cwd. With xxcwd(), it works. :(((
22:43 Corion So I now gotta find a different way of declaring my hidden builtin :)
22:43 Corion Maybe some weird Unicode char.
22:44 Corion Unicode sliderule to the rescue: ‼ is my prefix :)
22:45 Corion Grrr. But it pastes not as unicode, but as two exclamation points. I'll need a unicode-able editor :(
22:45 shapr What are you using?
22:45 shapr If emacs, C-u C-x C-f will let you force the charset.
22:45 Corion shapr: Proton
22:46 shapr Never heard of it.
22:46 putter Fyi, I now have a kludge which combines pods and adds misc cruft.  Single synopses.pod with toc and section index.  A and E's in historical.pod, and a modules.pod.  Not everyone likes one-big-page manuals... but I like zipping/grepping around a spec,  ymmv
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22:47 Corion shapr: Nice, quick, small Win32 text editor with multiple tabs.
22:47 Khisanth shapr: are you sure it's C-u C-x C-f? it attempts to open a file here
22:47 Corion shapr: But I'll have to change to something different if it doesn't support UTF-8
22:47 shapr Khisanth: Yes, but once you've chosen the file, you can choose the charset as well. Try it.
22:49 Khisanth hmm nope
22:49 Khisanth are you using xemacs?
22:49 shapr Yes I am.
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22:49 shapr But I'm pretty sure it works on gnumacs as well, though it may require MULE.
22:51 Khisanth I do have mule support, though there was nothing about charset when using that combo
22:51 Khisanth I get a lot of \d+
22:51 shapr Weird, maybe I'm just confused.
22:52 shapr I switched back to xemacs21 two weeks ago, possibly that has scrambled my brains.
22:53 Khisanth hrm maybe I am just lacking a utf8 font emacs can use
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22:55 Corion Hah. My first super-secret builtin is in Pugs :)
22:55 Corion ( xxx_file_spec_cwd() )
22:55 Khisanth pugs easter egg
22:56 Khisanth shapr: what does $ do in haskell? don't know how to read forall b a. (a -> b) -> a -> b :/
22:56 Corion Khisanth: $ is a shortcut to space you a pair of parentheses :)
22:56 Khisanth space?
22:56 Corion Khisanth: foo $ bar   is the same as   foo( bar )
22:56 Corion s!space!spare!
22:56 Khisanth ah
22:56 shapr $ means function application, you can use it like Corion just described, and you can use it other ways too.
22:57 Corion Khisanth: So foo $ bar $ baz $ ack    is  foo( bar( baz( ack ))))
22:57 shapr Like if you have a list of functions, and a list of input data, you can stick the two lists together into a result list with zipWith ($) fList dList
22:58 Corion shapr: Oooo - nice :) I thought that $ might be a form and not a function, but it seems that Haskell doesn't have (many) forms ?
22:58 Corion Hmmm. Or maybe there isn't much difference, as Haskell is lazy.
22:58 shapr forms? You mean builtin unchangeable functionality? If so, Haskell has almost none.
22:59 Khisanth that is very nice, the zip that is
22:59 Corion shapr: Yeah - if(bool, ex1, ex2) is a form in non-lazy languages
22:59 shapr if is a function in Haskell.
22:59 Corion I broke my own tests. I'm stupid :)
23:00 Corion (because I commited before running the test suite :) )
23:00 shapr I was pretty shocked when I first ran into Haskell, you can change nearly anything.
23:00 shapr I like a language that trusts me =)
23:00 Corion shapr: You'll like Perl then :) Except that there are things in Perl that you can't really change. Hence the need for Perl6 :)
23:00 Khisanth that is the same reason I like Perl
23:01 shapr I'm working my way into Perl slowly.
23:01 shapr I think I may invite Rob Nagler to work his way in from the other side.
23:01 jabbot pugs - 1449 - Proper cwd() for File::Spec (via the sup
23:06 putter re the request/suggestion to grab p5 modules and port... has anyone systematically groveled over p5/t, transliterating and integrating the test with pugs/t?  Pugs/t seems mostly written from scratch...?
23:06 Corion putter: Yes, mostly written from scratch.
23:07 Corion putter: So, transliterating P5 tests where applicable is most welcome IMO
23:07 putter tnx
23:08 shapr Waitasec, I just realized metaperl called me the main evangelist for Haskell.
23:08 * shapr blinks confusedly
23:09 shapr ok, quick poll, do I sound like a Haskell evangelist?
23:10 Odin-LAP You are a functional programming advocate, are you not?
23:10 Corion I didn't see much advocacy here
23:10 shapr Yes. But I think I advocate all flavors of programming.
23:10 Corion ... the use of Haskell for Pugs is pretty much a given thing, no ? :)
23:10 shapr heh, true.
23:10 Odin-LAP shapr: Well, maybe such caused some confusion..?
23:11 shapr Could be.
23:11 Corion multi-flavoured-programming ++
23:11 shapr truly!
23:11 jabbot pugs - 1450 - Fix command line help verification
23:11 shapr I guess I am a vocal proponent of Haskell for everyday general programming.
23:12 shapr aaanyway... back to staring at want
23:12 Corion r1450 Win2k testmatrix at http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
23:13 Corion shapr: You saw my comment about Empty ?
23:14 Corion err - retEmpty ?
23:14 shapr Yes, thanks! That's half of want right there.
23:15 shapr I guess I could just implement that and commit it. I've been trying to figure out the want.count part so far.
23:15 Corion shapr: Small steps! So implement that one and commit. Punt on want.count and let it always return infinity :)
23:15 Corion (or VUndef, dunno how it's defined)
23:16 shapr Yeah, true.
23:19 Corion good night all
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23:41 jabbot pugs - 1451 - Added test for super-secret builtin
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