Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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00:42 jabbot pugs - 1581 - Added -s (but only for posix).  Correcte
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01:02 jabbot pugs - 1582 - test for bug when $_ is explictly the to
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01:15 shapr from #haskell - <dons> ghc patch of the day: "get the SMP mode at least building"
01:16 shapr Pugs could have SMP support sooner than you expected.
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01:33 crysflame oo, nice
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03:06 autrijus greetings \camels
03:07 autrijus I see a great influx of filetest operators :)
03:07 Schwern -e!  -r!  -k!
03:08 autrijus -p! -u! -g! -s!
03:08 Schwern I know I've asked this before, but is the recommended book "Expression" or "Algorithms"?
03:09 autrijus both.
03:09 autrijus if you can only get one, Algorithms, I think
03:09 autrijus but I've neve rreally read Expression.
03:24 Alias_ I want -c
03:24 Alias_ "Can I create a file called $foo"
03:24 Khisanth I want autrijus clones :p
03:25 Alias_ or just -o
03:25 Alias_ Can I open the file $foo for writing
03:25 Alias_ Which requires either -w if it exists or -c if not
03:25 Khisanth hmm
03:25 Khisanth Alias_: open() seems more reliable
03:26 Alias_ But open _actually_ opens the file
03:26 Alias_ Say I have a manifest of files to install, I want to know before I start that I have permissions on all of them
03:26 Alias_ Rather than getting half way through, and failing
03:27 Alias_ otherwise we wouldn't need -r
03:27 Alias_ "just open the file"
03:27 Alias_ or -w, "just open (and clobber) the file"
03:27 Alias_ or any of the file test operators
03:27 Alias_ "just do it and see if everything dies in a mess" is not a good solution to writing a test
03:28 autrijus what does -c has to do with nonexisting file?
03:28 Khisanth -c(reate)?
03:30 Alias_ yes
03:30 Alias_ I'm assuming there is no existing -c
03:31 Khisanth -c  File is a character special file. ?
03:31 Alias_ oh... never mind then
03:31 Alias_ I just want a "can I open this path for write, regardless of current state"
03:32 Khisanth -r|-w ?
03:32 Alias_ what if there is no current file
03:32 autrijus then you can't safely check that.
03:33 Alias_ of course you can
03:33 autrijus because there may be a dynamic ACL thing in place.
03:33 Alias_ You see if the directory exists, and if you have permissions to create on the directory
03:33 autrijus but assuming traditional unix semantics, maybe you can check for -w on the directory.
03:33 Alias_ and if the dir doesn't exist, you want to work upwards until you find one that you can, so you can mkpath :)
03:34 Alias_ Anyways, it's a hell of a lot of mess to answer, "can I open( FILE, '>file' ) ok?"
03:34 autrijus and you have to check for disk inodes to see if they're foo :)
03:34 autrijus s/foo/full/
03:34 Alias_ autrijus: Like most installers do, yes :)
03:36 autrijus lunch &
03:53 Alias_ Does pugs have enough stuff to start investigating the real life issues relating to cross-language modules?
03:53 Alias_ Can we mix Haskell and Perl 6-targetted stuff together or something similar?
03:59 * Khisanth never saw the point in that
03:59 mugwump I am at the top of Taipei101, the world's tallest building!
04:00 mugwump and using IRC!  :)
04:00 Khisanth "you mean I have to install Python, Ruby AND Perl just to run this thing?!"
04:00 Khisanth wireless? :p
04:01 Alias_ Khisanth: I'm kind of hoping that at some point, probably at install time, you can also install a Parrot-compiled version of the same code
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04:01 mugwump sadly, just GPRS
04:01 Alias_ Khisanth: Languages load their own native libs, but bail out to the generic Parrot version for non-native libs
04:04 mugwump well, you can eval_perl5() from pugs iirc
04:04 Alias_ oh dear... evalling would be a problem wouldn't it
04:04 mugwump also, pugs can run IMC code as well as PASM
04:05 Alias_ you couldn't precompile evals
04:05 Alias_ So you are definitely going to need pluggable grammars for all the languages
04:05 Alias_ I wonder how large an individual grammar will be
04:05 mugwump there are no calling conventions for the Perl5 <=> perl6 bridge
04:05 Alias_ Damn this is going to make the Inline modules interesting though
04:06 Alias_ If the Inline'ed language has a native grammar, you just hand off to it
04:06 mugwump have a look at the source in pugs for the IMC  parser, it's laughably simple
04:06 Alias_ If it's written in Haskell, then I disagree :)
04:06 Alias_ IMC?
04:06 mugwump Parsec++
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04:08 mugwump The language isn't the problem.  It's more the style of programming using rules
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04:14 mugwump it seems inside out and this is quite a shock especially to someone who thinks they have seen / discovered every programming style... even I was rrecently forced to concede that maybe those functional guys had a point :)
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04:20 Alias_ mugwump: Yeah. I've been sold on Haskell just on the idea of getting partial evaluation as a core language feature
04:21 Alias_ If only I can get my head compatible with it's evil evil syntax :)
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04:21 Alias_ But hot damn, if we can get access to Haskell modules in Perl 6 I'll be a happy chappy
04:21 mugwump I'm getting good milage from "two Dozen short lessons"
04:21 Alias_ I'm working on this demo wiki page of shapr's
04:21 Alias_ And editing as I go to make it more friendly
04:22 Alias_ ... for camels at least
04:23 mugwump sounds good... tell me more later :)
04:23 * mugwump & # leaving Taipei101
04:30 Khisanth package keyword no longer in p6?
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04:37 Alias_ Khisanth: "package" is how P6 will detect a P5 file. P6 itself will use 'class' or 'module'(in some cases)
04:38 Khisanth Alias_: that is the reason I asked
04:39 Alias_ so... yes. No package keyword
04:40 Khisanth hmm maybe I'll just go through all the A, E and S first :)
04:43 Schwern Alias:  Wait... is "package" going to be Perl 5 code or just a Perl 5-style class?
04:45 Khisanth a module that contains package is p5
04:45 Alias_ It indicates to the parser to use the Perl 5 grammar instead of the Perl 6 grammar. I swear I've read that half a dozen times
04:45 Khisanth still reading about the regular program stuff :)
04:45 Alias_ So it's PONIE code
04:46 Schwern Huh.  That's new to me.
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04:46 Schwern Apoc 12 continues to describe things as "packages" but it doesn't use the keyword in code anywhere.
04:47 Alias_ Let me finish this merge and I'll look
04:57 Alias_ http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Perl6-​Bible-0.12/lib/Perl6/Bible/A01.pod
04:57 Alias_ HAlfway down
04:58 Alias_ search for "package"
04:58 Alias_ "I hereby declare that a package declaration at the front of a file unambiguously indicates you are parsing Perl 5 code"
04:58 Schwern I don't know, that's kind of ambiguous.
04:59 Alias_ Rule 1
04:59 Schwern I'm kidding.
04:59 Alias_ I know :)
04:59 Alias_ Had a chance to look through stuff yet?
05:05 gaal Windows--; # pop up a dialog box when a segfault occurs, thus stopping automatic smoke tests that expose hard bugs
05:08 gaal theorbtwo, you there?
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05:16 theorbtwo Mornin, all.
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05:18 gaal hey theorbtwo. i just noticed the testgraph script isn't compatible with 5.6.1. mind if i hack at it?
05:19 gaal unhappily, the problem is with unicode layers, which suggests there may be problems even if the syntax is fixed :(
05:20 theorbtwo Ugh.
05:20 theorbtwo Sure, go for it.
05:20 theorbtwo Sadly, YAML doesn't just do it right.
05:20 gaal ....anyone remember how to spell ":utf8" in 5.6? :)
05:20 theorbtwo Note that the output is ASCII -- I just HTML-escape the unicode characters.
05:20 gaal huh? what doesn't it do right?
05:20 gaal oh :(
05:21 gaal so there's no need to claim utf8ness, anyway.
05:21 theorbtwo I can't just say "open this file, please", to YAML, and it will open the files.
05:21 theorbtwo Except some of the tests output utf8.
05:21 theorbtwo (In purticular, the length tests.)
05:21 gaal LoadFile
05:21 gaal it's not exported by default
05:21 theorbtwo Yes, bu that fails to be unicode-clean.
05:21 gaal yeah, i wrote those :/
05:21 theorbtwo I did that first.
05:22 jabbot pugs - 1585 - * disable perlego tests completely
05:22 jabbot pugs - 1584 - * hangman.p6 now reads from AUTHORS dire
05:22 jabbot pugs - 1583 - * add Chpi and Anton to AUTHORS
05:22 Khisanth gaal: binmode?
05:22 gaal i don't mind requiring YAML 0.39 if it fixes the problem (hint, hint ingy)
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05:25 gaal why are you making ascii out instead of utf-8?
05:25 theorbtwo I'd prefer very much that the YAML modules be charset-sane, rather then requiring the user to be, such as by encoding the charset on the first few lines, before any data.
05:26 theorbtwo Because it creates less issues.
05:26 gaal for browsers, you mean?
05:26 theorbtwo I don't have to worry about the browser actually supporting utf8 correctly, I don't have to worry if it's marked as utf8 correctly.
05:26 theorbtwo Yeah.
05:26 theorbtwo It's also dead easy to implement.
05:26 gaal that's usually not a problem in this day and age....
05:26 theorbtwo That half shouldn't have problems at all under 5.6.
05:27 gaal true
05:27 gaal well, not true
05:27 gaal if i work in character mode
05:27 gaal i can't just convert stuff to html entities
05:27 gaal because i'll read an octet at a time
05:27 theorbtwo Why not, and what do you mean by character mode?
05:27 theorbtwo Oh, you mean in bytes mode.
05:27 gaal sorry, bytes mode, yes.
05:28 theorbtwo Do that line in a {use utf8; } block, then.
05:28 theorbtwo Or, if that won't work, then admit that it's impossible to get it to work if you use bytes.
05:29 gaal yes, and write a minimal utf-8 scanner. the fun!
05:29 gaal while $byte & 80 get_another_one();
05:30 theorbtwo I didn't think 5.6 utf8 was /that/ broken...
05:30 gaal well, i'll look into it.
05:32 jabbot pugs - 1587 - * add Adam Preble to AUTHORS
05:32 jabbot pugs - 1586 - * do not set heap limit to 200m, as it c
05:37 gaal incidentally - does this page come up with properl css? http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/tests_xp.html - my browser refuses to refresh the css, for some reason
05:41 gaal beh - it looks as if unicode support in 5.6.1 was, indeed, "that broken".
05:41 gaal how bad do we want the smoke system to support 5.6.1?
05:41 gaal pugs itself works fine, so it's a pity to leave it behind;
05:42 jabbot pugs - 1591 - * .kv implemented on arrays and hashes t
05:42 jabbot pugs - 1590 - * remove -H200m from Perl6::MakeMaker to
05:42 jabbot pugs - 1589 - * exit() now triggers END{} too.
05:42 jabbot pugs - 1588 - * minor edit to drop unneccessary qualif
05:42 gaal but working around utf8 shortcomings just for the test system is... weird.
05:42 gaal does exit() trigger END{} in p5?
05:42 autrijus it does.
05:46 gaal theorbtwo, you should really get the css on testgraph to work on msie (mousehover doesn't, currently). this is quite the thing to show bosses at work :)
05:46 theorbtwo Oh, I thought it was...
05:46 * gaal is quiety pushing TDD
05:46 theorbtwo Anyway, I see that page without css.
05:47 theorbtwo Which is odd, because if I just load the CSS page, it loads OK.
05:47 nothingmuch theorbtwo: `works?
05:47 gaal i see it with css on msie
05:47 theorbtwo I see  http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/tests_xp.html as if it had no CSS on FF.
05:47 nothingmuch i see it with css, but it looks too red
05:48 * autrijus resumes the "fix broken tests" coding monkey role :)
05:48 * nothingmuch goes to the doctor
05:48 gaal the server logs don't give any errors on the css file
05:49 theorbtwo The CSS loads with a content-type of text/plain, though.
05:49 theorbtwo Note that the coloration of the last column is based on style="" attributes, not on the CSS file.
05:49 gaal ugh
05:49 nothingmuch perhaps testgraph.pl should have a content type in the <link>
05:50 theorbtwo That quietly implies that somebody can't replace our stylesheet with another one that isn't CSS, but that's OK with me.
05:51 theorbtwo gaal, try adding C< type="text/css" > to the link tag at the top?
05:52 gaal try again please
05:54 theorbtwo No visible change.
05:54 theorbtwo Most odd.
05:54 gaal btw there are inconsistent newlines there.
05:55 theorbtwo In the HTML output?
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05:55 gaal yeah - the header that testgraph generates vs. the rest
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06:18 theorbtwo gaal, if you just change the syntax to open then binmode, what goes wrong?
06:18 * theorbtwo doesn't have a handy copy of 5.6.
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06:22 theorbtwo Odd, the forum2.org testgraph shows a lot more red then the run I just did.
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06:23 sdtr443w Do complicated returns work in Pugs?
06:24 gaal whoops, was taking a shower and am now off to $work. see you in a few.
06:25 theorbtwo See you in a bit, gaal.
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06:36 * castaway_ snuggles theorbtwo
06:37 theorbtwo *kiss*
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06:41 hattmoward disgusting!
06:41 castaway ahh shurrup hatt
06:41 rgs :)
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07:11 nothingmuch castaway, theorbtwo: is it working?
07:11 nothingmuch errm... context context context
07:11 nothingmuch not the relationship, i mean
07:11 nothingmuch the SEE session
07:11 nothingmuch i typoed the port number
07:13 castaway No
07:13 castaway telnet woobling.org 6944 -> nada
07:13 * castaway grins tho
07:13 castaway ah *now* it does, ta :)
07:14 nothingmuch huraah
07:14 * nothingmuch can now sleep at night
07:14 castaway :)
07:14 castaway Until we crash it by sending it junk :)
07:14 castaway I'm betting its not very stable
07:15 nothingmuch feel free to crash it, i'll try to run it in a loop
07:15 nothingmuch anyway, time to go to work
07:15 nothingmuch and maybe pharmacy
07:15 castaway Okie.. thanks!
07:15 nothingmuch btw, i think it's easiest if i give you shell acces
07:15 nothingmuch and you control it with osascript
07:15 castaway that would be nifty ,)
07:15 nothingmuch to create new docs, and stuff
07:15 theorbtwo That'd be quite nifty.
07:15 castaway umm, assuming we knew osascript
07:15 nothingmuch it's very simple
07:15 castaway but I guess theorbtwo would like to play with it
07:15 theorbtwo (Of course, it'd require learning osascript, and SEE's osascripting model, assuming it has one.)
07:16 nothingmuch ok, i'll set that up when I get back home
07:16 nothingmuch osascript is peanut
07:16 nothingmuch s
07:16 castaway funky
07:16 nothingmuch and see's model is probably a bit more complex
07:16 theorbtwo I should think it would be.
07:16 nothingmuch but there's ref
07:16 theorbtwo But I have no idea if SEE exposes an osascripting interface.
07:16 nothingmuch it does
07:16 nothingmuch see autrijus' kwiki hack
07:17 theorbtwo Oh, I should probably read that at some point.
07:17 nothingmuch it's really just: SEE, open this file, and let everyone play with it
07:17 nothingmuch and then at some point save it (dunno when)
07:17 nothingmuch ciao!
07:18 * castaway waves at nothingmuch
07:18 theorbtwo Later!
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07:56 theorbtwo Hm, is there a way to add an instance of show to an imported type, or to fake show?
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08:05 castaway hmm, wheres all the lambda-ites?
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08:11 nothingmuch on #haskell ;-)
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08:14 iblech (me at school ATM) autrijus: saw your commit of kv.t -- if I understood S29 correctly: .kv returns an AoA (array of [key, value]). .pairs returns an AoP (array of Pair.new(key => ..., value => ...)). Might be wrong, though
08:14 * iblech heads to next lession
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08:15 nothingmuch oh my, why should .kv do that?
08:16 Schwern Why do we need two different operators?
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08:17 xkb_ hi
08:18 theorbtwo Note that S29 isn't even vaugely firm yet.
08:19 Schwern The signatures on the functions in S29 frighten me
08:19 Schwern multi sub log (: Num ?$x = $CALLER::_, Num +$base) returns Num
08:19 Khisanth remove more water?
08:20 Khisanth Schwern: line noise? :)
08:20 Alias_ pretty much
08:20 theorbtwo Wait a second... so log(10) means the log of $_, base 10, and not the log of 10, base defaulted (to 10).
08:20 Schwern Khisanth:  Seems a little... verbose and compact at the same time
08:20 Khisanth I thought p6 was suppose to be less and not more :p
08:21 Khisanth though I really don't see any problem with reading that
08:21 Alias_ Khisanth: It's "more" strictly types, and you'll be "less" aware it's happening
08:21 Alias_ typed
08:21 * Alias_ goes home
08:21 theorbtwo p5 is very strictly typed: The types are $, @, %, *, and &.
08:21 Schwern Though I do like how log10 is implemented
08:21 Khisanth although the problem is always with writing and not reading when it comes to verbosity
08:22 Khisanth Schwern: currying?
08:22 theorbtwo p6 is a bit more loosely typed, and certianly more obvious in it's typing.
08:23 theorbtwo The lambdites on #haskell don't seem all that awake either.
08:23 Schwern Why do we have 25 trig functions in the core?
08:24 Schwern That all belongs in a module
08:24 theorbtwo I think the idea is to specify them first, then decide what goes in a module and what doesn't.
08:24 Schwern Fair nuff
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08:25 Khisanth just make sure p6 does not become PHP :)
08:25 Schwern zip doesn't do what I expect.
08:25 Schwern Though it was just a flattening operator
08:26 Schwern thought
08:26 Khisanth iterate over multiple lists in parallel?
08:26 nothingmuch for (zip(@a; @b)) -> $a, $b { }
08:26 nothingmuch to iterate two lists together
08:26 Schwern Example: zip (1,4,7,10 ; 2,5,8,11 ; 3,6) generates (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,undef,10,11,undef)
08:26 Schwern Oh
08:26 Schwern What a horrible example
08:27 * nothingmuch wonders in how many places like multiple iteration vars perl6 obeys the 0, 1, ∞ rule
08:27 castaway 0,1,what?
08:27 nothingmuch Inf
08:27 nothingmuch http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TwoIsAnImpossibleNumber
08:28 castaway hmm, was that urf8?
08:28 nothingmuch yup
08:28 castaway utf8 even
08:28 * nothingmuch is always utf8, because hebrew is too crazy in any other encoding
08:28 castaway odd, thats what Im set to display :(
08:28 theorbtwo Yey!
08:28 theorbtwo Too crazy why, though?
08:28 theorbtwo The lack of vowel marks?
08:28 nothingmuch logical order
08:29 nothingmuch vs visual order
08:29 theorbtwo Ah.
08:29 nothingmuch clash of latin space with hebrew space in many encodings
08:29 nothingmuch can't have å with hebrew
08:29 theorbtwo Um, do you often want to?
08:29 nothingmuch and since I tend to communicate in english, sometimes with umlauty people, and hebrew, i get that
08:29 nothingmuch for mom it's even more important
08:29 theorbtwo Ah.
08:30 nothingmuch she is a german speaker
08:30 nothingmuch it's just annoying to see a name like Wünsch become something with hebrew in it
08:30 * theorbtwo thinks that the Germans should just start actually using the ue form.
08:30 theorbtwo Wuensch.
08:31 nothingmuch http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule is actually a much better discussion of the topic
08:32 * nothingmuch thinks that a language should have only Infinity, but within that Infinity 0, 1, and sometimes 2 should make sense
08:32 nothingmuch except for reasonable exceptions like hash key -> value mappings represented as pairs, or things like that
08:32 Khisanth what about things like Infinity squared? :)
08:33 nothingmuch still infinity, Khisanth ;-)(
08:33 Schwern nothingmuch:  key -> value mappings are still one.  One pair.
08:33 nothingmuch Schwern: yes, i agree. That's also how I see them
08:34 * nothingmuch ponders a review of this
08:34 nothingmuch i think one of the hardest places to make this work is parameter binding
08:34 nothingmuch btw, the log thing:
08:34 Schwern Let us all remember that we'll never need more than 640K or 32K rows in a spreadsheet.
08:35 nothingmuch it reads: log without arguments puts $_ in $x
08:35 Schwern That 32K limit is STILL in Excel, ran into it last year.
08:35 nothingmuch log with 1 arg puts the arg in x
08:35 nothingmuch oh my
08:36 nothingmuch log with two args puts first in x, second in base
08:36 nothingmuch log(:base(2)) is like log2($_)
08:36 nothingmuch etc, etc, etc
08:37 Schwern Why not just log(2, 10)  (log of 2 base 10)
08:38 nothingmuch Schwern: s/Why not just//;
08:38 Schwern So what's log(:base(2)) ?
08:38 Schwern Don't tell me :foo(N) is what named args look like
08:38 nothingmuch it just says "this parameter, the one i'm giving you, is named"
08:38 Schwern Eww
08:39 nothingmuch :foo(2) is the same as (foo => 2)
08:39 Schwern So log(base => 2) still works?
08:39 nothingmuch ofcourse
08:39 Schwern Good.  :foo(2) looks too much like a function call
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08:41 castaway Schwern, in 2003 ?
08:41 castaway at least in PivotTables in 2003 the limit increased hugely.. havent tested simple spreadsheet lines yet though
08:41 Schwern In 2005 even
08:41 Schwern Oh, Excel
08:41 Schwern No idea
08:41 * Schwern snaps into context
08:42 castaway at, 65k rows now
08:42 Schwern I just know we were generating 40K+ row spreadsheets that were giving Excel heartburn.
08:42 castaway s/at/ah/
08:42 nothingmuch a /whole/ 65k?
08:42 castaway yeah ,)
08:42 Schwern Ahh, we were hitting 80K
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08:43 castaway (bloody stupid no, why not liimit by memory like most of the rest..)
08:43 Schwern It was each bid on 44K properties in Miami/Dade county.
08:43 Schwern So 1..N rows for each property
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08:43 Schwern castaway:  Has to do with the way the Excel file format was done.
08:44 nothingmuch so basically it was the result of a join?
08:44 nothingmuch i have a page long SQL query I make an excel table out of
08:44 nothingmuch same feeling
08:44 Schwern nothingmuch:  More or less
08:44 nothingmuch fortunately it's around 1k at the moment
08:45 castaway Schwern: then they should change it.. its not as if they havent already made bits incompatible ,)
08:46 Schwern castaway:  Here it is from the Open Office viewpoint.  http://sc.openoffice.org/row-limit.html
08:46 theorbtwo The problem is that people would create too-long spreadsheets, then try to save them, and get pissed as all hell.
08:47 Schwern Though it looks like OOo just shot themselves in the foot for the hell of it.
08:49 Khisanth some people enjoy pain ;)
08:49 * nothingmuch thinks excel is fundamentally flawed for any data set more than 4-5 times the size a human can fit in their brain
08:49 nothingmuch auto-filter raises this to 10-15 times, perhaps
08:49 Schwern castaway:  Looking further I can't really say if the limit is in the Excel document format or not
08:50 Schwern castaway:  Or if MS is staring at the same sort of type upgrade hell that OO.org is.
08:50 Schwern Perl 6 has a simple Number type, RIGHT?!
08:50 Khisanth simpler than scalar?
08:50 Schwern Integers are -Inf to Inf, right?
08:50 nothingmuch Schwern: Num
08:50 theorbtwo IIRC, it has a Num role, which everything that can be a number can do.
08:50 nothingmuch i think
08:51 Schwern Numbers upgrade to bignums seemlessly, all that good stuff
08:51 Schwern None of this 3.298984144e48 crap
08:51 theorbtwo I think this is supposed to be the case, though I am unsure if it is the case in pugs.
08:51 nothingmuch it probably is
08:51 nothingmuch haskell has bignums out of the box
08:51 Schwern Nope
08:52 Schwern $ perl6 -wle 'print 2**64'
08:52 Schwern 1.8446744073709552e19
08:52 nothingmuch that's horrible!
08:52 * nothingmuch writes a test
08:52 Schwern cavet, that was r11xx
08:53 theorbtwo Does the same on mine, which is up-to-date.
08:53 theorbtwo BTW, -l is a no-op, you wanted "say".
08:53 Schwern Also try showing a number
08:54 Schwern Oh, say
08:54 theorbtwo (-w is also a no-op, but I'd keep typing it anyway if I were you.)
08:54 autrijus greetings.
08:55 theorbtwo Allo, autrijus!
08:55 * clkao waves at autrijus
08:55 autrijus perl6 does not have a simple number type.
08:55 autrijus hey clkao
08:55 theorbtwo Is there a way I can derive show on a DynamicModule without editing the source of DynamicModule?
08:55 Khisanth clkao: finished moving already?
08:55 autrijus theorbtwo: sure!
08:56 theorbtwo How?
08:56 autrijus instance Show DynamicModule where show (RTM name path) = show (name, path)
08:56 autrijus put it anywhere you want
08:56 Daniel_Nee has left
08:57 clkao Khisanth: just touched down, not finisehd yet.
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08:58 theorbtwo src/External/Haskell.hs:22:40: Not in scope: data constructor `RTM'
08:58 autrijus Schwern: ** gives a Num context
08:58 Schwern Norm!
08:58 autrijus Schwern: if you want bignum, give it a int contxt
08:58 xkb_ Is all conversation here about pugs?
08:58 Schwern autrijus:  It should dwim
08:58 autrijus $ ./pugs -e 'say int 2**644'
08:58 autrijus 7299904988195512349825874569120466119829165611597​6958889267080286388402675338838184094604981077942​3964582769531775105169710192755420070079720425811​15555427012031914789764239201325987075945660416
08:58 xkb_ where do pugs and parrot meet?
08:58 nothingmuch autrijus: why isn't Num by default an Int until it needs to be a rat?
08:58 theorbtwo In the PAST.
08:59 Schwern Nums should upgrade to bignums, too
08:59 autrijus nothingmuch: a Rat is BigRat anyway
08:59 nothingmuch float, whatever
08:59 autrijus nothingmuch: it preserves everything
08:59 autrijus it's just the stringification.
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08:59 nothingmuch the stringification is where the user is
08:59 nothingmuch the user is the most important part of a system
09:00 autrijus eh sure.
09:00 autrijus AST.hs line 190
09:00 autrijus    vCast (VRat r)      = showNum $ (realToFrac r :: Double)
09:00 nothingmuch IMHO if it looks like an int it should be printed out as such
09:00 autrijus currently we show rationals by casting it to Num.
09:00 Daniel_Nee has joined #perl6
09:00 autrijus feel free to just fix it.
09:00 nothingmuch ok
09:00 autrijus hi Daniel_Nee!
09:00 Schwern xkb:  Pugs is a stand alone Perl 6 interpreter written in Haskell.  It can also optionally compile Perl 6 code to Parrot and excute it using Parrot.
09:00 autrijus xkb_: "pugscc --runparrot examples/mandel.p6"
09:00 nothingmuch would the fix look like if (int(x) == x) { cast to int } else  { cast to rat }?
09:00 Daniel_Nee Hi, Autrijus !
09:01 autrijus nothingmuch: I have no idea. maybe you want arbitary precision fractional too
09:01 nothingmuch i don't know
09:01 nothingmuch either way, i have to find time first
09:01 autrijus 1.42857142857142857 (ad infinitum)
09:01 autrijus Schwern: ideas?
09:02 Schwern About what to do with "print 1/3"?
09:02 jabbot pugs - 1592 - bignum test
09:02 theorbtwo You could even have it stringify 1/3 to "1/3", but I'd prefer that it stringify to a simple literal, unless pragmatified otherwise.
09:03 Schwern bignum.pm deals with it by putting a default limit on it
09:03 autrijus haskell's Rat indeed stringifies to 1%3.
09:03 autrijus but not thinking we're going that way.
09:03 theorbtwo Using % is asking for user-confusion.
09:03 nothingmuch not only that
09:03 autrijus not sure 1/3 is better.
09:03 nothingmuch that's a bad thing, imho
09:03 theorbtwo Even more then using engineering notation.
09:03 nothingmuch but anything per outputs for the user should be edible by a pipe
09:03 theorbtwo It's a hair better.
09:04 nothingmuch you don't want to say $rat.as("%f")
09:04 nothingmuch you want to just say $rat
09:04 autrijus Schwern: ok. so for non-Inf integral parts, we show it even it's 9999999 digits?
09:04 nothingmuch and have "... | poison_rats" work
09:04 nnunley_ has joined #perl6
09:04 Schwern $ perl -Mbignum -wle 'print 1/3'
09:04 Schwern 0.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333
09:05 nothingmuch lets formulate some rules:
09:05 nothingmuch no data loss, if possible
09:05 Schwern I'd parrot what bignum does and consult Tels on the subject.
09:05 nothingmuch backwards compatiblilty in notational format, more important than data loss
09:05 theorbtwo +(~($x)) == $x
09:05 nothingmuch (1/3 is 0.33, not 1/3)
09:05 autrijus theorbtwo: then 0.3333 does not do what you want
09:05 nothingmuch machine limits, mostly in the pass are not an issue
09:06 nothingmuch that is, 2^75 is an int
09:06 nothingmuch everything is presented in it's simplests backwards compatible format
09:06 nothingmuch i.e., an int is an int
09:06 theorbtwo Yes, the rule I gave is impossible to fufill in all cases.
09:06 autrijus theorbtwo: don't just RTM then
09:06 nothingmuch and we could have a pragma to print out wittier formats
09:07 nothingmuch like sci notation where applicable
09:07 nothingmuch and fractions
09:07 Schwern autrijus:  For *display* not sure.
09:07 nothingmuch and maybe even π etc
09:07 autrijus    where show mod = dm_path mod
09:07 autrijus that should do
09:07 nothingmuch but then we also need to be able to parse such notations
09:07 autrijus it's already parsed.
09:07 nothingmuch (which is somthing i've always wanted in perl)
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09:08 nothingmuch +("1/3") -> ?
09:08 nothingmuch pugs> "1/3" + 1
09:08 nothingmuch 2.0
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09:08 theorbtwo I'd prefer that the stringification not imply accuracy that is not present.
09:08 nothingmuch that's not what I meant
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09:09 nothingmuch 0.333 is not 1/3
09:09 nothingmuch it's 0.333
09:09 nothingmuch but 1/3 is 1/3
09:09 autrijus pugs -e' 1 + '1/3'.eval
09:09 nothingmuch is that what you mean?
09:09 nothingmuch autrijus: i'm not going to eval everything the user chucks at me
09:10 nothingmuch i want slightly smarter *number* not expression parsing
09:10 nothingmuch although technically 1/3 is an expression, most people think of it as a number
09:10 nothingmuch arguably -3 is the expression 0-3, too
09:11 theorbtwo Oh; it already does what I was about to fault it for not doing -- ~5e60 is "5.0e60"; it doesn't form an intermediate float and then round it.
09:11 nothingmuch btw, 1/3 notation is *not* processed by anything on CPAN
09:11 nothingmuch i have a SoPW on that somewhere
09:11 autrijus nothingmuch: I'm very not sure about processing "2004/12" as a nmber.
09:12 nothingmuch where I tried to use Math::Expr, etc
09:12 autrijus I am very very not sure indeed.
09:12 autrijus certainly not as a builtin.
09:12 nothingmuch if it's a date it shouldn't be numified
09:12 autrijus why is 1/3 not a date and 2004/12 one?
09:12 nothingmuch it should stay a string
09:12 nothingmuch or be parsed as such
09:12 nothingmuch both are
09:12 nothingmuch and both aren't
09:12 autrijus eh.
09:12 nothingmuch i meant, if the user has $date = "2004/12"
09:12 nothingmuch then the user shouldn't $date++
09:13 autrijus why?
09:13 nothingmuch without making it into a date object that properly overloads ++
09:13 autrijus I want "2004/13"
09:13 autrijus that's what perl's ++ always offered.
09:13 nothingmuch hmm
09:13 autrijus and I'd like int($date) to be "2004"
09:13 autrijus not 167.
09:13 nothingmuch i forgot about magical
09:13 nothingmuch but then in 19 you get...?
09:14 autrijus 20 of course
09:14 nothingmuch perl -e 'my $a = "2004/12"; print ++$a'
09:14 nothingmuch 2005
09:14 nothingmuch it's not automagical
09:14 nothingmuch it numifies
09:15 nothingmuch ok, again, perhaps there should be  a pragma for more eager numification
09:15 nothingmuch since it's bound to be done lexically
09:15 nothingmuch damn, generalized tainting again
09:15 autrijus sure. feel free to write a module :)
09:15 nothingmuch strings that are slurped in the context of that lexical pragma will be numified smartly later
09:15 nothingmuch even if they're spliced a bit
09:16 nothingmuch i want generalized tainting SOOOOO much
09:18 * nothingmuch will bring it up again
09:19 nothingmuch i think it's the only sane way to get implicit behavior done right, leaking properly, in a well defined way
09:24 autrijus ok.
09:25 autrijus the integer part is of infinite precision
09:25 autrijus it's 40 place of precision after the dot
09:27 * theorbtwo hmms.
09:28 theorbtwo pugs: internal error: ASSERTION FAILED: file (null), line 465  (I think because I'm now compiling with -debug).
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09:30 autrijus num.t now passes
09:30 autrijus committing
09:32 jabbot pugs - 1593 - * implement .kv and .pairs according to
09:32 pjcj "using tex to right Perl 6 code"  --  typo or Freudian slip?  You decide!
09:34 cognominal what is the quickest way to flip an bidimensional array, that is to double loop over    @b[$i,$j] = @c[$j.$i] ?
09:37 theorbtwo Hm, -dcore-lint thinks the core is insane, when compiling Parser.
09:37 autrijus theorbtwo: w/o -O?
09:38 theorbtwo Er, no, with -O, trying again without now.
09:40 theorbtwo Has no problem when I remove the -O from the {-# ... #-} block.
09:43 autrijus ok. please remove -O and commit :D
09:43 autrijus Parser.hs seems to be not the bottleneck anymore.
09:43 autrijus should be enough to -O Lexer.hs alone
09:46 theorbtwo OK, ci'd.
09:46 autrijus danke. the bigrat implementation is also in
09:46 autrijus Schwern, theorbtwo, nothingmuch: please test for sanity
09:49 theorbtwo (svn diff -rHEAD|less)++
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09:52 jabbot pugs - 1595 - Remove -O from Parser.hs, since it makes
09:52 jabbot pugs - 1594 - * bigrat stringification: integral part
09:53 nothingmuch all the fun stuff happenns when I'm eating
09:53 xern has joined #perl6
09:54 nothingmuch i'm not sure what it all does, autrijus, but i think it sort of makes sense
09:54 nothingmuch wowowowowowowwww, people have been linking a lot
09:55 autrijus hm?
09:55 nothingmuch backlinks
09:55 nothingmuch i thought no one would actually care
09:55 theorbtwo Autrijus, what do you think of L<> in the .hs files.
09:55 nothingmuch but they are really getting somewhere
09:55 nothingmuch theorbtwo: IMHO: yes.
09:55 autrijus theorbtwo: sure. -- L<>
09:56 nothingmuch as an intergral part of PA02
09:56 autrijus my current focus though is on fixing bugs and get multidim working for 6.20.
09:56 autrijus err, 6.2.0
09:56 autrijus so feel free to help me adding L<>
09:56 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_​status/t_index/Synopsis/S02.html#Literals <-- beautiful
09:57 nothingmuch tiny 't's everywhere
09:57 autrijus nice
09:58 nothingmuch next we'll have 'i' links, for implementation
09:58 theorbtwo Somebody should work out some better CSS, though.
09:58 nothingmuch horraaah!
09:59 nothingmuch i want vimcoloring though
09:59 nothingmuch i wonder if i can pull it off eventually
10:00 * theorbtwo wonders if he'll get energetic enough at some port to set up non-vim-based coloring.
10:00 autrijus Text::VimColor?
10:00 theorbtwo Hm, I wonder if I can convince pugs to dump it's parse tree complete with coordinates, and use that for syntax coloring.
10:01 nothingmuch autrijus: takes perl6.vim and probably haskell.vim
10:01 nothingmuch and uses them to color the outputs
10:01 autrijus both are there.
10:01 saorge` has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
10:02 nothingmuch i think editors should have embedded perl6 support
10:02 nothingmuch that way macros could be parsed sanely
10:02 nothingmuch that would be treees cool
10:02 nothingmuch tr/e/é/
10:03 nothingmuch anyway, back to real work before I get carried away
10:03 autrijus ciao :)
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10:22 ingy has joined #perl6
10:22 Daniel_Nee Hi Autrijus, looks like you're still quite busy, I will arrange the demo of FCB permission program to Land Bank on April 14th ( Thursday afternoon), which will give you one more week.
10:23 autrijus Daniel_Nee: sure, that's fine. I'll still go into office tomorrow
10:25 xern autrijus: i'm starting finger pugs now
10:25 xern fingering
10:26 autrijus xern: nice!
10:26 nothingmuch autrijus: where is PA02 at?
10:26 nothingmuch should it be literal haskell?
10:26 nothingmuch or an external doc?
10:26 nothingmuch is it partially done?
10:26 nothingmuch i'd love to help with what I know
10:26 autrijus nothingmuch: PA02 is just a kwid like anything else.
10:27 nothingmuch and this is a good excuse to learn more
10:27 autrijus I've started some outlines. will post it around 6.2.0 time
10:27 autrijus which is this weekend
10:27 nothingmuch jolly
10:27 ingy has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
10:27 ingy has joined #perl6
10:27 autrijus but, dinner. bbiab
10:27 nothingmuch could you keep it on SEE somewhere, or maybe check in partial copies, or put them up on the web?
10:27 nothingmuch ok, ciao
10:28 autrijus xern: want a committer bit?
10:28 * nothingmuch can do that, go eat
10:28 autrijus xern: I'm sure you can start working on tests/examples/primitives, etc :D
10:28 autrijus nothingmuch: ow. ok, gone &
10:28 xern yah, but i guess later after my reviewing other parts :)
10:28 autrijus (but, xern is now a committer. welcome aboard!)
10:28 nothingmuch huraah
10:28 xern how do i commit code?
10:28 autrijus # I've known xern in real world for quite some time now
10:29 nothingmuch svn ci file/you/changed
10:29 xern i mean the location
10:29 autrijus http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
10:29 autrijus but &
10:29 nothingmuch the repo? http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
10:30 * nothingmuch people should have voicing privs to make others go away for the sake of the others' health
10:30 nothingmuch i know i need to be silenced occasionaly
10:30 theorbtwo WOO!
10:30 theorbtwo Progress!
10:30 nothingmuch that sounds good
10:30 nothingmuch explain progress?
10:31 theorbtwo Well, I no longer die horribly with a segfault or internal error.
10:31 theorbtwo I now get: pugs: /usr/src/SHA1/SHA1__0_0_1.o: unknown symbol `GHCziIOBase_zdfMonadIO_closure'
10:31 theorbtwo pugs: user error (Unable to resolve functions!)
10:32 theorbtwo Of course, I'm not real clear on what that means, but it's something.
10:33 castaway :)
10:33 * castaway hugs theorbtwo.
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10:35 Daniel_Nee has left
10:36 nothingmuch C++ is a terrible beast
10:36 theorbtwo C--
10:36 nothingmuch it's worse than perl5 in so many things perl5 is bad at
10:36 ingy hola
10:36 theorbtwo (C++)--
10:37 nothingmuch why is it so popular?
10:37 theorbtwo Hola, ingy.
10:37 theorbtwo Because at the time, it was better then most other things around for a wide class of problems.
10:37 dada has joined #perl6
10:38 theorbtwo Oh, wait.
10:38 castaway because its a virus, and is everywhere? :)
10:38 theorbtwo Cplusplus, not C.  In that case, I have no idea.
10:38 theorbtwo Sorry.
10:38 ingy hi theorbtwo
10:38 * castaway waves at Mr. Kwiki
10:39 theorbtwo ingy, can we get a function in P6::Bible to give us the raw POD of a document by name?
10:40 ingy hmmm
10:40 ingy perldoc -m Perl6::Bible::A01 :P
10:40 theorbtwo Ugh; there already is a Perl6::Bible .pm; it should do something useful.
10:41 theorbtwo Backticking out to perldoc is ugly as all get-out.
10:41 ingy well it was a quick hack, and fairly useful
10:42 ingy so you want `perldoc --raw s01` ?
10:42 theorbtwo I wouldn't mind if it was just encapsulated backticks.
10:42 ingy er
10:42 ingy so you want `p6bible --raw s01` ?
10:42 * ingy is just waking up
10:43 theorbtwo No, I want perl -MPerl6::Bible -e'print Perl6::Bible::getdoc("S01");'
10:43 ingy oh
10:44 ingy I see.sure
10:49 theorbtwo Shall I wait until after you've woken up the rest of the way for my other problems?
10:50 ingy theorbtwo: ?
10:50 castaway *g*
10:51 theorbtwo YAML isn't charset-smart; if I store a string with chr(0x100) in it, and tell it to read it back, I get back two chars, unless I handle the charset stuff myself.
10:52 ingy anything else?
10:52 theorbtwo That's it, I think.
10:52 ingy phew
10:52 theorbtwo The second is pretty minor; I already do the charset dance myself.  But gaal wanted it to work with 5.6.
10:55 * castaway wonders if she can order some kwiki-plugin-pod while we're at it :)
10:55 nothingmuch oh oh oh, me too
10:56 nothingmuch i want YAML to be able to serialize whole processes quickly
10:56 nothingmuch so i could do continuations in perl5
10:56 nothingmuch i expect results within two weeks, max
10:56 theorbtwo OTOH, just to note some Karmic balance, I'm working on getting SHA1 working.
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11:14 theorbtwo I think I see.
11:15 theorbtwo Hm, perhaps not.
11:16 castaway hmpf, gentoo still insists on 6.2.2, even when ghc-bin is installed
11:17 nothingmuch gentoo is troubling me that way
11:17 nothingmuch i need GHC 6.2 for darcs to live
11:17 nothingmuch and 6.4 for pugs to live
11:17 * castaway checks the keywords again
11:17 castaway eep :)
11:17 nothingmuch i also want wxpython 2.5
11:17 nothingmuch but it is complete masked out
11:17 nothingmuch and been that way since november
11:18 theorbtwo Uff.
11:20 castaway Hmm, I see no reason why it doesnt install me ghc 6.4 :(
11:20 nothingmuch package.keywords?
11:21 castaway has dev-lang/ghc-bin ~x86
11:21 castaway dev-lang/ghc ~x86
11:21 castaway in it
11:21 elmex has joined #perl6
11:21 nothingmuch your package.keywords? or the one that is rsync'd?
11:21 castaway /etc/portage/package.keywords
11:21 castaway is there another one?
11:22 nothingmuch that's the one i mean
11:22 nothingmuch there's the one with the default maskings and such
11:22 castaway thats the one the docs tell me to add to, and it worked for other stuff
11:22 nothingmuch i so don't know what I'm talking about, i should just shut up
11:22 castaway hmm, default? was empty when I started it
11:32 jabbot pugs - 1596 - atalog_tests.pl upgrade, because t\Synop
11:33 * nothingmuch has a dirty fix for that
11:33 nothingmuch checks out from svn.perl.org/.../syn
11:35 castaway hmm?
11:35 nothingmuch jabbot: pugs - 1596 - atalog_tests.pl upgrade, because t\Synop
11:35 jabbot nothingmuch: Does that reason seem to explain anything else?
11:35 autrijus mm?
11:35 theorbtwo Did you reindent large swaths of my code?
11:35 nothingmuch i need to make all my Q&D fixes "real"
11:35 nothingmuch perhaps
11:35 nothingmuch i moved some stuff around
11:36 nothingmuch but that was a while ago
11:36 * theorbtwo nods.
11:36 nothingmuch rootmj seems to have done that
11:36 castaway haskell-tidy?
11:36 nothingmuch perl, actually ;-)
11:36 theorbtwo I asked ingy for the function in p6bible that we need to use it sanely.
11:37 * theorbtwo needs to make his emacs sane with tabbing.
11:37 nothingmuch does p6bible get latest?
11:37 theorbtwo (IE always use spaces.)
11:37 theorbtwo It's supposed to, I think.
11:37 castaway ah well, perltidy then.. (I still need one that does what i like ,)
11:37 theorbtwo I'm really pining for just having the docs in the pugs repo.
11:37 theorbtwo ...with magic on the server side to keep them up to date.
11:38 * autrijus mumbles something about svn:external.
11:38 theorbtwo That sounds like the right sort of magic.
11:39 theorbtwo Speak up, indeterminate-aged probably-not-a-grasshopper.
11:40 * nothingmuch tries to remember where 'grasshopper always wrong in argument with chicken comes from'
11:40 * theorbtwo wonders how the traditional Chinese translation of The Diamond Age does on the bit about translating KFC.
11:40 * autrijus doesn't seem to recall a Diamond Age translation
11:40 * nothingmuch goes to find his principia discordia, on the desk of whomever has it at the moment in the office
11:40 autrijus oh wait, there is on
11:40 autrijus one
11:41 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
11:42 theorbtwo The book makes a reference to translating "Kentucky Fried Chicken" to "The House of the Venerable and Inscrutable Colonel:.
11:42 theorbtwo Er, s/:/"/
11:43 nothingmuch ah yes! page 48
11:43 * nothingmuch goes to photocopy for reference
11:44 theorbtwo Mmm, nm?
11:44 * castaway thunk that had a website somewheres
11:45 * obra has a nice pic of the venerable and inscrutable colonel printed onto corrugated plastic from taipei
11:45 theorbtwo Um, does he look different there?
11:46 obra not really
11:46 nothingmuch theorbtwo: are you familiar with the principia discordia?
11:46 obra though in Tokyo, I saw statues of him dressed as a samurai
11:46 theorbtwo Mildly, nothingmuch.
11:46 theorbtwo OK, now /that/ is certianly photoworthy.
11:46 nothingmuch on page 48 is a wonderful quote about grasshoppers
11:47 obra theorbtwo: I took pictures;)
11:47 webmind nothingmuch, which version ?
11:47 nothingmuch "grasshopper always wrong in argument with chicken" -- Book of Chan, compiled by O.P.U sect
11:47 nothingmuch 4th ed, IIRC
11:47 webmind k
11:48 nothingmuch http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/55.php
11:48 theorbtwo http://www.trip23.com/pd/body/body_48_txt.htm
11:48 nothingmuch txt is teh suxx0r
11:48 nothingmuch (for the principia, that is. Otherwise I love it)
11:49 nothingmuch IIRC metaperl_ implemented this: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/78.php
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11:58 castaway Blubb.
11:58 theorbtwo Blubb?
11:59 castaway Blubb.
11:59 theorbtwo Take an actual-walking-outside lunch break?
12:00 castaway But the outside is 17 floors down!
12:00 theorbtwo There's an elevator.  6, IIRC.
12:01 nothingmuch 17 floors... dear god
12:01 theorbtwo She's only around halfway up, too, nm.
12:01 nothingmuch it's been a long time since I've been that high
12:01 castaway Puh, in the UK office they have whiskey and cake for birthdays??
12:01 castaway quote: "Yes, thanks - I've not tried it yet, I've just been off for birthday whisky+cake. Hurrah!"
12:01 castaway not quite, theres 21floors, 4 above me
12:02 nothingmuch wow, coolness
12:02 * nothingmuch sometimes drinks beer for lunch
12:02 nothingmuch and there's lots of occasions where wine is served
12:02 castaway nm, its quite a view.. I have a panorama pic somewhere (theres only about 6 or so buildings in munich this high)
12:02 theorbtwo Yeah, that's great for productivity!  Get everybody drunk for lunch, then file them back into the office for an afternoon working.
12:02 * nothingmuch usually takes care of the leftover wine
12:03 nothingmuch (for cleanliness, that is ;-)
12:03 castaway right.
12:03 nothingmuch (you can't just leave all those half filled cups lying around)
12:03 theorbtwo They'll attract flies!
12:03 nothingmuch exactly!
12:03 * castaway watches windows copy data from the slowest server ever (I think it has a 1mbit network card or something)
12:04 nothingmuch and, you know, they might be heavy when you try to collect them
12:04 nothingmuch that's scary
12:04 castaway it IS 4gb, but it'll probably take the rest of the afternoon
12:04 theorbtwo Ahh, back in the day, when BNC was "thin ethernet", and 10mbps was "fast ethernet".
12:04 nothingmuch my line broadband is more than that
12:04 nothingmuch (i never thought i'd get the chance to say that)
12:05 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i wasn't born yet =(
12:05 nothingmuch well, no, i'm exaggerating
12:05 nothingmuch but i've yet to use hardware from the 10mbit era
12:05 nothingmuch that I wasn't playing with for historical reasons
12:05 theorbtwo Yes, well, I've never seen BNC actually used for data.
12:05 nothingmuch i did have a mac with 1mbit or so, i think. it could have been 10mb
12:06 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
12:06 nothingmuch but i have never networked it
12:06 theorbtwo I've used plenty of 10mbit equipment, though.
12:06 nothingmuch and it was old by then
12:06 theorbtwo How old are you, nm, and how long ago did you get into computers?
12:07 * castaway still runs around with a BNC end piece in her pocket, cos some idiot would remove it from the end, and all the data would fall out
12:07 nothingmuch 19
12:07 * castaway boggles.
12:07 nothingmuch and long ago: i think the first program i actually wrote was a y2k countdown
12:07 theorbtwo Because I was using 10mbit stuff for mission-criticial networking 3 years ago.
12:07 nothingmuch and there were 100 days or so left
12:07 theorbtwo Ah, how quaint.
12:07 nothingmuch that was javascript
12:07 nothingmuch it came after about a year of really using computers
12:07 theorbtwo 2036 (or is that 8?) is when everything is going to die.
12:08 nothingmuch not just playing with them
12:08 * castaway checks.. yup, still there
12:08 nothingmuch then around a year later i decided to use perl
12:08 nothingmuch and a year after that or so i actually got around to it
12:09 nothingmuch oh wait! the school network was 1mbit BNC when I was in the 7th grade!
12:09 nothingmuch so i lied
12:09 nothingmuch i used BNC a lot for video though
12:10 theorbtwo I remember my school being on appletalk for a while, but that uses RJ-45, not BNC.
12:10 * castaway feels old
12:10 obra Wouldn't that have been Asante PhoneNET over RJ11?
12:10 nothingmuch this was a network of 90MHz dells or something like that
12:11 castaway network, at school? ,)
12:11 obra (appletalk over rj 45 would only map to ethernet, I think)
12:11 nothingmuch no, sorry, they were digitals
12:11 nothingmuch wow, that was from when digital still was
12:11 nothingmuch now *I* feel old
12:12 castaway bah.
12:12 theorbtwo Er, right, RJ11, not EJ45.
12:13 theorbtwo It's been a while since I did any real networking work.
12:13 theorbtwo Where by real I mean layer 1.
12:24 * castaway wants time off.
12:26 castaway (One of those, lots of time do nothing, holidays..)
12:27 Odin- Oooooh. Kinda like unemployment?
12:28 * nothingmuch gets depressed with nothing to do
12:28 nothingmuch must work, or hike
12:28 * Odin- is depressed anyway, so it's not much of a change.
12:28 nothingmuch anything else is not sufficient to keep me interested
12:28 castaway nm .. "do nothing" means "no obligations".. ie just gimme my computer :)
12:28 nothingmuch heh
12:28 castaway Odin-: yeah, kinda :)
12:28 nothingmuch castaway: what kind of vacation is one where you keep using the computer?
12:28 castaway one without any interruptions?
12:29 theorbtwo One where you have time to do what you want to on the computer, rather then what your employer wants you to do.
12:29 nothingmuch beh
12:29 Odin- nothingmuch: Whaddya mean? You actually can move away from the computer?
12:29 castaway right
12:29 nothingmuch yes
12:29 castaway preferably one that also doesnt involve cooking, cleaning and washing etc.. but thats really dreaming
12:29 nothingmuch i like doing that, too
12:30 nothingmuch otherwise i lose my mind
12:30 nothingmuch if i overdo something i lose interest
12:30 nothingmuch it's one way of controlling ADD
12:30 nothingmuch not that I'm 100% that I have it
12:30 nothingmuch cooking is nice, that is one fo the things I do to get away from the computers
12:30 castaway I would, if I had time ;)
12:30 nothingmuch and cleaning is something I do when I need a 10 minute break
12:30 castaway nm, yeah it is when you have a choice
12:30 Odin- (I might note that usually at least a week of my summer is spent in a place which was abandoned over fifty years ago, and thus lacks even reliable telecommunications.)
12:30 nothingmuch and washing is something i like doing anyway, so =)
12:30 castaway it's not so much when it has to be done no matter whether you can be bothered or not
12:30 * Odin- has been diagnosed with ADHD.
12:30 nothingmuch Odin-: that's something i'd like to do
12:31 nothingmuch here any area that is not inhabited for several miles is an army firing zone
12:31 |Lance has joined #perl6
12:31 Odin- And I fulfil most of the criteria for several other DSM disorders... :/
12:31 * nothingmuch thinks he should have said several km, but that doesn't sound well in english
12:31 castaway bah, disorders
12:32 castaway there is no normal, dammit
12:32 Odin- castaway: Nah. But I suppose wanting to kill yourself is outside of whatever you might call 'healthy'...
12:33 nothingmuch s/disorders/traits/
12:33 nothingmuch ;-)
12:33 webmind 'differances from the majority'
12:33 nothingmuch webmind: the majority is different
12:33 nothingmuch =)
12:33 Odin- Frankly, I think people are WAY too stuck up about being politically correct.
12:33 castaway right.
12:33 webmind nothingmuch, yes.. but shares commons
12:34 theorbtwo I think people are far to concerned about being healthy, and not concerned enough at being happy.
12:34 Odin- ADHD is real. It's overdiagnosed, and is often used as an excuse to subdue kids ... but it's still real.
12:34 nothingmuch theorbtwo: oh man, sooo ditto
12:34 webmind like the most people have 2 arms and 2 legs
12:34 |Lance has left
12:34 nothingmuch and a nose!
12:34 castaway right but some dont, so what?
12:34 * nothingmuch has several problems: concentrating, reading, etc. I solve them by doing things I like
12:34 nothingmuch taking breaks
12:35 nothingmuch walking around
12:35 nnunley has joined #perl6
12:35 webmind that means they differentiate from the majority
12:35 nothingmuch no ritalin for me
12:35 Odin- Heh.
12:35 nothingmuch no funny methods
12:35 theorbtwo And thumbs.  But the ones that don't mostly aren't obsessed with wishing they had more of them.
12:35 nothingmuch i get to 80% of what I feel I want
12:35 castaway webmind: The german disability system thinks I'm 100% disabled..
12:35 webmind Odin-, I prefer not to be labeled as having a malfunction or whatever
12:35 webmind castaway, why ?
12:35 nothingmuch but it's good enough for me
12:36 webmind what does ritalin do ?
12:36 nothingmuch castaway: how often do you get people with that 'take off your thumb' magic trick?
12:36 Odin- nothingmuch: The school prohibits me from even trying that.
12:36 castaway webmind: because it compares physical differences to the "norm" whatever that is
12:36 shapr has joined #perl6
12:36 nothingmuch webmind: it is supposed to make you concentrate better
12:36 castaway and my missing bits add up
12:36 shapr Hail Eris!
12:36 xerox It has many effects
12:36 theorbtwo Thumbs, a kidney, some vertebre, one bone in the left arm, some other stuff.
12:36 webmind nothingmuch, ah ok
12:36 nothingmuch fed like candy to "hyperactive" children
12:36 castaway can't do it, nm
12:36 Odin- webmind: Fine. Then fight against ADHD being considered a 'malfunction'.
12:36 nothingmuch shapr: Hail, hail, fellow POEE
12:36 theorbtwo POEE?
12:37 shapr Paratheonametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric, of course.
12:37 webmind Odin-, I wouldn't know.. don't know much about adhd
12:37 nothingmuch castaway: i mean, "see? my thumb's disappeared!"
12:37 theorbtwo Oh, yeah, Pope of the Eristian someither...
12:37 Odin- webmind: Well, I do. I have it.
12:37 webmind Odin-, and would you call it a malfunction ?
12:37 shapr I've heard of ADHD, isn't that where you get drugs to sit still?
12:37 webmind Odin-, would you call it a disability ?
12:37 nothingmuch changes topic to: -><-
12:37 Odin- webmind: I would call it a disability, yes.
12:37 nothingmuch =D
12:38 webmind Odin-, good enough.. then it is
12:38 nothingmuch changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1567 (267/3922) | Win2k r1576 (281/4129)+1Unex
12:38 Odin- webmind: But that's not inherent in ADHD, but is a problem of the &$&#%#! school system. ;)
12:38 shapr I wouldn't call ADHD a disability. I'd call a societal malfunction.
12:38 shapr There aren't anymore frontiers :-(
12:38 webmind Odin-, ah
12:39 xkb_ ah hi shapr
12:39 xkb_ nice piece on ltu :D
12:39 shapr ah, thanks!
12:39 * webmind could often call things a cultural problem.. and not a problem to the issue in question.. not sure if that's the case with ADHD ?
12:39 xkb_ you got me interessted in any case :D
12:39 shapr yay!
12:39 castaway Maybe its just me, but I seem to hear so many people announcing they have some disorder beginning with AD*, that it seems to be more normal than different
12:39 nnunley_ has quit IRC (Connection refused)
12:40 nothingmuch castaway: many many people have them,
12:40 shapr I think ADHD is normal for humans, but abnormal for the highly ritualized society of the present.
12:40 castaway well its not a malfunction then
12:40 Odin- shapr: Then you don't know what ADHD is. ;)
12:40 nothingmuch but IIRC in school i don't remember many people having such trouble
12:40 nothingmuch there was the one guy who really couldn't function
12:41 nothingmuch and there was me, who could only pay attention in 3 minute chunks
12:41 shapr Odin-: I think I have a clue about ADHD
12:41 castaway (also seems to be a recent thing.. )
12:41 nothingmuch and i don't remember anyone else having such trouble
12:41 Odin- shapr: Do you have it? :>
12:41 nothingmuch and BTW, for the record, I think that I don't have it
12:41 shapr Odin-: yes
12:41 nothingmuch because it's not so severe
12:42 shapr Some references are http://www.borntoexplore.org/ and http://www.reciprocality.or​g/Reciprocality/index.html
12:42 osfameron has left "Leaving"
12:43 shapr I've written about ADHD and Ritalin on Ward's Wiki - http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AttentionDeficitDisorder and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RitalinDrug
12:43 Odin- shapr: Interesting. How, exactly, is it "normal for humans"?
12:43 castaway ha, direct quote there
12:43 castaway In our experience it is evidence that most of what is being called ADD today would not have been called ADD fifteen or twenty years ago and that much of it falls within the range of normal boy behavior
12:44 castaway (stupid diagnostics giving names to such things)
12:45 Odin- That's rubbish.
12:45 shapr Odin-: ADHD is a different balance in the brain, and it's useful to society in a variety of roles. It's really bad for bean counting though.
12:45 Odin- Or, alternatively, that's evidence of overdiagnosis.
12:46 Odin- shapr: You mean that it's not pathological?
12:46 Limbic_Region Odin- if you haven't already, you should pick up a copy of "Driven To Distraction"
12:47 shapr No, it's not pathological. ADHD has a genetic basis. Some people claim that it requires both nature and nurture, but I'm not sure if I believe them.
12:47 Odin- shapr: Okay, I'll agree with that. :)
12:48 shapr Yeah, I have "Driven to Distraction", "Out of the Fog" and "You Mean I'm not Lazy, Crazy, or Stupid?"
12:48 Odin- It's a "problem" only in today's *seriously* fucked up society...
12:48 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:48 Limbic_Region AFAIK, there is still a distinction between ADD and ADHD though outside of the medical/psychological community the line is very blurred
12:49 shapr Odin-: I'd say that this society is pathological from the viewpoint of an ADD person. The stuff on reciprocality.org is really weird, but also kind of makes sense.
12:49 autrijus it's not a problem at all. :)
12:49 autrijus to me, at least.
12:49 Limbic_Region people who are able to function with ADD usually see it that way - I believe for others it is disabilatating
12:49 Odin- It is, for me.
12:50 Odin- I constantly hit against the walls of 'normalcy'.
12:50 Limbic_Region in fact, some people are more succesful as a result of their ADD
12:50 autrijus however it was a serious problem to me before I discovered ways toward hackable brains
12:50 Odin- I get into trouble at school, because I'm not 'paying attention'.
12:50 shapr autrijus: yeah, metacognition and self-modification
12:50 Odin- (I once played QIII through classes. I noticed the lectures better than without it.)
12:50 autrijus Odin-: nod. I dropped out when I was 14yrs old
12:51 * Odin- doesn't have that alternative. :(
12:51 * Limbic_Region barely graduated highschool
12:51 shapr I use 'Personal Unit Tests' because my internal feedback loops don't work much - http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PersonalLoopbackTests
12:51 Odin- I mean, unemployment has been skyrocketing for the last few years. There's literally no alternative. :/
12:51 Limbic_Region in fact - I wouldn't have had I not moved in the middle of my senior year with all failing grades - the idea of being able to pull of passing was enough to actually make me do it - of course I also had a full time job and was taking a class at the university as well
12:53 shapr I think you can use the differences as strengths, but you can't do it if you try to fit into the rest of society.
12:53 castaway shapr++
12:53 autrijus there is no rest of society in general and one cannot fit at all :D
12:54 * shapr likes that viewpoint
12:54 castaway indeed
12:54 castaway make your own way, don't conform. (Although parts are hard not to)
12:54 Odin- Meh. There certainly is a 'rest of society'. It just usually doesn't want to be drawn up that way.
12:54 webmind shapr, same with autism me thinks
12:54 Odin- Geekship just doesn't have many elements of that 'rest'. ;)
12:55 Limbic_Region shapr - I am not sure I agree with you - I don't believe that all people are capable of using their ADD as a strength
12:55 Limbic_Region I believe in some it is a matter of choice or education
12:55 masak has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
12:55 castaway Limbic_Region: yeah, those that get stuck wanting to do what they cant (same problem with some physically disabled people)
12:55 Limbic_Region but in others, they just can't adapt
12:56 shapr I can't filter my visual inputs, moving objects in my peripheral vision or cute blonde females always get my visual focus. I've exploited this as a strength by using an acid color theme and now information about the code just jumps into my head automatically http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/secret-joy.png
12:56 elmex has joined #perl6
12:56 autrijus oh. wow. fellow ion user?
12:56 webmind shapr, horrible ;)
12:56 shapr webmind: but hard to ignore :-)
12:57 webmind shapr, so true
12:57 shapr autrijus: yes, I like ion
12:57 pjcj I use ion too ;-)
12:57 shapr Limbic_Region: I've thought of an ADD Reader javascript that shows only one line of very large text moving across the screen, I think that would also exploit distractability for learning.
12:58 Juerd has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
12:58 autrijus metacity here, but if I get some more time maybe I'll retry conf ion
12:58 autrijus the good (and bad) thing about IRC is that it moves constantly ;)
12:59 * shapr agrees
12:59 Limbic_Region shapr - I am not trying to be argumentative and I agree, there is a lot more that could be done to help a larger percentage with education and exploring alternative learning methods
12:59 castaway ,)
12:59 xerox Why is it good and bad?
12:59 Limbic_Region but I have come to realize that some people just "can't get it" no matter how you try to help them
12:59 obra metacity is great. "whole screen mode" with one key is a lofesaver
12:59 castaway because it distracts
12:59 Limbic_Region and they can't help themselves
12:59 * castaway nods at Limbic sadly
12:59 xerox obra, which key? :-)
12:59 Odin- Limbic_Region: Others want to do something else, but are forced not to.
13:00 Odin- Left handed people forced to write with their right, anyone?
13:00 * shapr raises his left hand
13:00 Limbic_Region Odin- and that extends to shapr's point about it being a societal hurdle.  I agree that it is one, but it isn't the only thing stopping people from living succesful and rewarding lives
13:00 xerox Really? :-(
13:00 shapr I was forced to write right-handed for a coupla years in the beginning.
13:00 obra xerox: for me, alt-space. buit configurable
13:01 Odin- Limbic_Region: No, but it is one. For some, maybe the only one. For others, the first one. Perhaps the second, third, or later for others.
13:01 Limbic_Region being a relatively intelligent individual, I failed to understand how some people just couldn't get things I was explaining to them no matter how I explained it
13:01 Limbic_Region it took me a long time to realize the differences between intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom
13:01 Odin- shapr: That ... sucks.
13:02 * Odin- has a bit of the first, a byte of the second, and pretty much none of the last... :p
13:02 xerox Limbic_Region, it happened to someone who I was trying to explain a thing, but I still think that he *can* understand it if I try in another way.  What do you have realized, exactly?
13:03 Limbic_Region xerox - that the capacity for adaptability or alternative thinking just isn't present in some people or that they refuse to let themselves see things that way no matter how hard they think they want to
13:04 xkb_ bubye
13:04 xkb_ quit
13:04 xkb_ aargh
13:04 xkb_ has quit IRC ("leaving")
13:04 Juerd has joined #perl6
13:04 autrijus greetings Juerd-san!
13:04 Limbic_Region take a concept like the big bang - you try to explain the universe existing at some point as being no larger than your fist with no outside vantage point - people think 3 dimensionally - if it is the size of my fist, there MUST be an outside
13:04 Limbic_Region no matter how you explain it to them - they will just never get it
13:05 shapr autrijus: hey, did you see my Pugs post on LtU?
13:06 autrijus shapr: yes. lovely
13:06 shapr :-)
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13:07 Limbic_Region in any case, I am trying to say that both ends of the pendulum swing are wrong - it is neither just a disability nor is it just a social malfunction - it is a personally relative thing that falls somewhere in between the two endpoints
13:08 Limbic_Region on that note - I am off for a bit
13:10 shapr Yeah, time to suck down some ritalin and count some beans.
13:11 shapr Sometimes I'm unhappy that ritalin is necessary for me to keep a job - http://www.scannedinavian.com/2005-03-03.html
13:11 shapr Anyway, what's the priority for Pugs at the moment?
13:12 autrijus for this week, for me personally, is fixing the storage model
13:12 autrijus so multidim structures work
13:12 autrijus and %*ENV can be "tied"
13:12 autrijus then it's fixing various parsefails.
13:12 autrijus goal is to release 6.2.0 on weekends.
13:12 autrijus then the priority is PA02. following that, IMC stuff.
13:14 autrijus other people have other people's priorities. this is anarchy after all :D
13:15 shapr Google doesn't tell me much about PA02 and IMC. I've seen the IMC directory in the pugs sources, but what's PA02?
13:16 autrijus PA01 is Pugs Apocryphon 2, Technical Overview
13:16 autrijus aka Design of Pugs
13:16 shapr ohh
13:16 autrijus aka How to start hacking
13:16 * xerox looks forward to it.
13:16 autrijus I guess I'll just name it "design"
13:17 hawkaloogie has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
13:17 autrijus I'll post a outline on weekends
13:17 autrijus and solicit another question fest
13:17 hawkaloogie has joined #perl6
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13:28 ashok is perl  6.0 out ???
13:28 xerox ashok, more or less ;)
13:29 autrijus ashok: no, not yet. but you can have a Free Preview
13:29 ashok autrijus : where do i find preview
13:30 autrijus ashok: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs/
13:31 autrijus shapr: also, IMC is this amazing typed high level assembly thing
13:31 autrijus http://www.parrotcode.org/faq/imcc.html
13:32 shapr interesting!
13:34 autrijus the plan is to write a minimal compiler that compiles IMCC to TH.
13:34 autrijus using GADTs to model the typed registers.
13:34 autrijus maybe you'd be interested :)
13:34 autrijus IMC is also very fast when running on parrot.
13:35 shapr that does sound very interesting
13:35 ashok thanks autrijus
13:35 autrijus np =)
13:35 * castaway ponders an irssi addon that looks up acronyms when clicked on.. (or something)
13:35 autrijus TH is template haskell, http://haskell.org/th/
13:36 castaway GADT ?
13:37 ninereasons has joined #perl6
13:37 shapr Generalised Algebraic Data Type, but I like cognominal's suggestion better.
13:37 autrijus http://research.microsoft.com/%​7Esimonpj/papers/gadt/index.htm
13:38 castaway wobbly types?
13:38 autrijus also see http://autrijus.org/tmp/old.hs versus http://autrijus.org/tmp/gadt.hs
13:38 shapr jello :: Wobbly
13:41 * castaway wonders if thats mappable to something she knows without knowing any haskell (or very little)
13:41 rgs the second aprocryphon isn't commited yet, I assume
13:42 theorbtwo foo :: bar generally means something named foo of type bar.
13:43 autrijus rgs: no. why?
13:43 castaway "that" === GADT
13:43 rgs just being curious
13:44 autrijus :)
13:45 autrijus castaway: sadly, probably not.
13:46 castaway mmpf :)
13:46 autrijus it is conceivable that Perl 6's subtyping mechanism will be strong enough to contain GADTs.
13:46 autrijus but it's very much not there yet :)
13:47 castaway I dont know that one either though :)
13:49 mugwump Ah, great, I meant to ask you for a copy of those two haskell files yesterday, autrijus
13:49 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1596 (273/4123) | Win2k r1576 (281/4129)+1Unex
13:49 stevan morning all (or evening, or afternoon, etc etc etc)
13:50 PerlJam has joined #perl6
13:51 autrijus castaway: ok. for example, in perl 5, the source is parsed into a B::* data structure
13:52 autrijus then upon evaluation/compilation, another pass called "context propagation" is done
13:52 autrijus to figure out each expression's context (scalar, list, void)
13:52 * castaway nods.
13:52 autrijus that pass is often error prone when writing optimizers
13:52 autrijus because you can easily generate "nonsense" ops
13:53 autrijus i.e. there is nothing in the B::* tree that guarantees correctness
13:53 autrijus of the context, or of the parameters.
13:53 autrijus so if the parser / optimizer / propagator got it wrong
13:53 autrijus you get nasty subtle bugs or outright segfaults.
13:54 Limbic_Region GADTs will eliminate the nasty subtle bugs
13:54 autrijus yes. because it makes nonsense OPs impossible.
13:54 Limbic_Region only possible ops will get generated
13:54 autrijus you just can't write a AST that will not reduce.
13:54 * castaway scratches head
13:54 * Limbic_Region was trying hard to finish autrijus's sentence
13:55 autrijus AST is that B::* tree thing.
13:55 castaway I'm getting the feeling I dont really want to know ,)
13:55 autrijus for example, there's nothing in B::* that prevents you from writing +(+,-)
13:55 autrijus although that is patent nonsense.
13:55 Limbic_Region castaway - let me try and take a stab at it
13:55 Limbic_Region autrijus - correct me if I am wrong
13:56 Limbic_Region when you are writing the second/third/nth pass for another language, it is possible to get it wrong and write valid but nonsensical ops
13:56 gugod_ is now known as gugod
13:57 Limbic_Region GADTs will prevent that from happening, making targeting other backends less prone to error
13:57 Limbic_Region in a nutshell
13:57 autrijus yup.
13:57 autrijus Limbic_Region++
13:57 autrijus without GADTs, it is very easy to generate IMC/Parrot code that makes parrot segfault.
13:57 Limbic_Region Limbic_Region-- # but thanks
13:58 autrijus with GADT, if the resulting code makes parrot segfault, that is squarely Not Our Problem :D
13:58 castaway Hmm, Ok
14:00 theorbtwo GADTs let you write types on constructors in much more detail then was possible before them.
14:01 castaway in Haskell, right?
14:01 castaway (that made much more sense=
14:01 autrijus in any language that has them. but yes, as far as pugs is concerned, that means haskell :)
14:02 theorbtwo When people start throwing around terms like "Algebraic" in strange ways, Haskell is a pretty good bet.
14:03 stevan autrijus: very cool making hangman read the AUTHORS file :)
14:03 autrijus stevan: I'm addicted to it :D
14:03 autrijus <- spent some 20 minutes
14:03 stevan autrijus: should I use File::Spec to construct that path? or would you rather not add the dependecy?
14:03 shapr theorbtwo: that's a good quote
14:03 stevan autrijus: it is kinda fun :)
14:03 theorbtwo Thanks, shapr.
14:03 autrijus stevan: hm? the "/" is portable
14:04 stevan autrijus: ok, then nevermind :
14:04 autrijus if you'd like, sure, but don't worry too muc
14:04 stevan )
14:04 autrijus much
14:04 stevan autrijus: since many people dont make install it is probably best to leave it out
14:05 autrijus you can write lib.pm.
14:05 autrijus and FindBin.pm
14:05 autrijus I wouldn't mind :D
14:05 stevan :)
14:06 theorbtwo I'd prefer that pugs provide the info that FindBin tries to find... because FindBin tends to get it wrong.
14:06 stevan is @INC mutable?
14:06 autrijus sure is
14:06 stevan whoooo hoo
14:06 stevan lib.pm here I come
14:07 autrijus stevan++
14:07 stevan autrijus++
14:07 shapr perlbot: karma of windows
14:07 ashok has left "Leaving"
14:07 perlbot Karma for windows: -2
14:07 jabbot shapr: of windows has neutral karma
14:08 stevan LOL, dueling chat-bots
14:08 gugod jabbot: that's really stupid.
14:08 jabbot gugod: That is interesting. Please continue.
14:08 theorbtwo karma windows
14:08 jabbot theorbtwo: windows has karma of -1
14:09 theorbtwo Ha:  They also disagree on what the karama of windows is.
14:10 stevan autrijus: no BEGIN {} yet correct?
14:10 stevan autrijus: and does require work at compile time (or close to it)? in the first-come-first-served order?
14:11 autrijus require is just perl5 require.
14:11 autrijus so, first come first served.
14:11 autrijus you can write lib.pm so that
14:11 stevan ok
14:11 autrijus require lib;
14:12 autrijus import('lib': @paths)
14:12 autrijus works
14:12 autrijus that will motivate me to implement 'use' :)
14:12 autrijus although, check the bible to see if import sytnax change
14:12 autrijus changed
14:18 stevan it does look as if there has been some change (http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Perl6-Bible-​0.12/lib/Perl6/Bible/S11.pod#Importation)
14:19 stevan but I dont think it is really relevant to lib.pm
14:19 stevan (at least not at this point)
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14:28 drbean has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds)
14:32 jabbot pugs - 1597 - * Added tests for $pair.pairs, $pair.kv,
14:34 asavige has joined #perl6
14:35 pupilzeng has joined #perl6
14:36 asavige Stevan and Autrijus: my neck is getting really sore from being hung. I love your hangman game!
14:38 drbean has joined #perl6
14:42 stevan asavige: thanks :)
14:42 metaperl_ has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
14:42 stevan watch for a CGI version soon
14:42 * theorbtwo wins two in a row.
14:43 stevan theorbtwo: you are the keeper of the AUTHORS file, I would expect nothing less :)
14:43 theorbtwo I don't do that much keeping...
14:43 * asavige ponders doing a version that reads the VICTUALS file, might get hung less often then. :-)
14:43 theorbtwo And I have a horrible memory for names.
14:44 stevan asavige: then we would have make it harder and include favorite foods too
14:44 theorbtwo Hm, you can't backspace.
14:44 stevan theorbtwo: Term::Readline is all you :)
14:45 theorbtwo Hm, did merlyn actually do something useful
14:45 theorbtwo ?
14:46 stevan since when did usefulness become a qualification?
14:46 theorbtwo Eh, I thought the qual was useful suggestions, or code in the repo...
14:47 * theorbtwo looses his first one: Yuval Kogman.
14:47 stevan theorbtwo: I think he helped with a Makefile issue or something
14:47 stevan stevan% pugs -e 'sub foo ($inv: $test) { }; foo("hmm": 1)'
14:47 stevan Wrong number of invocant parameters: 1 actual, 0 expected
14:47 stevan pugs -e 'sub foo ($inv: $test) { }; foo("hmm", 1)'
14:47 stevan Wrong number of invocant parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
14:47 stevan thats odd
14:48 stevan autrijus: is this a bug in pugs or a bug in me?
14:49 theorbtwo Try foo("hmm": 1);
14:50 stevan theorbtwo: thats the first one
14:50 * theorbtwo tries to decide if listing the guesses in alpha order vs order made is an improvement.
14:50 theorbtwo Oh, right.
14:50 stevan it tells me no invocants expected
14:50 stevan then when I dont give it an invocant, it tells me it expects one :)
14:51 Corion has joined #perl6
14:51 * shapr chirrups cheerfully
14:52 theorbtwo Allo, cheerful shapr.
14:52 autrijus yo.
14:52 Corion Does 6.2 by the weekend mean that we get objects by the weekend?
14:52 Corion Or should I look at the roadmap again?
14:52 autrijus check roadmap again :)
14:53 Corion autrijus: Too bad :)
14:53 shapr It's good to be awake. Sleep seems like such a waste of time.
14:53 autrijus it means that by the weekend we can start to refactor mercilessly.
14:53 autrijus toward objects
14:53 Corion autrijus: BTW, you said that I was working on (a) HTTP::Proxy - actually I'm not, but I should start if you promise that :)
14:53 autrijus Corion: :D
14:53 Corion autrijus: Cool! HTTP::Proxy would like objects, as would the other other HTTP stuff.
14:53 shapr Is there really a roadmap online?
14:53 autrijus shapr: sure. PA01
14:54 autrijus shapr: it's part of your magazine
14:54 Corion ... having want() would be cool too, but want() needs objects first, right?
14:54 shapr doh
14:54 autrijus Corion: properly saying, yeah
14:54 autrijus yay! I fixed the stupid parsing bug
14:54 autrijus lc $x, $y  # should parse as lc($x), $y
14:54 chip so now the stupid parsing works?
14:54 autrijus lc, $y # lc($_), $y
14:55 autrijus totally makes no sense
14:55 shapr Great, pugs can parse slashdot now!
14:55 stevan next step idiot parsing
14:55 stevan then dullard parsing
14:55 chip whitehouse.gov
14:55 stevan chip: that may be a little ambitious, thats a lot of stupidity to parse
14:56 stevan autrijus: did you see the invocant weirdness I pasted?
14:56 theorbtwo You'd have to parse lying, cheating, and fucking over the entire world for that.
14:56 autrijus stevan: yes, a sec
14:56 stevan theorbtwo++
14:56 Corion BTW, would porting C<lib.pm> make sense? Or are module imports not yet finalized? Personally, I think that C<use lib;> should translate to "find directory of the script, and use "lib/" there.
14:56 Corion theorbtwo: That comes in 7.0, right?
14:56 chip theorbtwo: Hm.  OK, let's fall back to Microsoft.  No, wait...
14:57 stevan Corion: it is (like most of the current modules) a hack to get things working for now
14:57 Corion Oh. The Win32 segfault during make test is still there
14:57 autrijus Corion: uh, it's actually push @*INC
14:57 chip Corion: cute
14:57 Corion autrijus: I know. But "use lib < ... >;" is much nicer
14:57 Limbic_Region autrijus - out of curiosity, do you still catch up with the log what you missed while sleeping?
14:57 chip autrijus: isn't it unshift?
14:57 Corion ... it's unshift IMO as well
14:58 stevan Limbic_Region: he uses a text-to-speech program to read it to him while he sleeps :)
14:58 autrijus ok, ok, unshift.
14:58 rgs wow, lexical $_
14:58 Corion Anyway - as long as we only have require and not use, that's not really useful ;-) Or are the import semantics the same as with P5 ? That is, use mod <- do Eval "require mod; mod::import()"
14:59 Limbic_Region stevan - didn't edgar cacey claim that's how he discovered he had powers, fell asleep with his head on a book and woke up knowing everything in it?
14:59 cognominal I am searching a site that compared the syntax of ocaml and haskell. This is not merd.net. Does someone have that in his bookmarks?
14:59 Corion ... I could implement the C<use> keyword as some kind of source filter :)
14:59 Limbic_Region autrijus - http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445097 is another example of the power of Pugs
14:59 stevan Limbic_Region: that was how I studied in high school (which explains all the Ds on my report card)
15:00 rgs cognominal: merd.net is pixel, right ?
15:00 autrijus Limbic_Region: I've seen it :) thx
15:00 Limbic_Region k
15:00 rgs autrijus: have you seen t/op/mydef.t in 5.9.2 for tests for lexcial $_ ?
15:00 cognominal rgs: yes with "une mouche a merde" (dung fly?) as icon.
15:00 * theorbtwo wonders -- do you properly ASCIIfy ø with oe in Dutch?
15:00 Limbic_Region autrijus - more recently http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445312 # requesting examples of p6 code
15:00 stevan Corion: proper C<use> means we have BEGIN{}
15:01 * theorbtwo wouldn't mind improper use.
15:01 autrijus rgs: no... 5.9.2 has lexical $_, right?
15:01 Corion stevan: We have END{}, we don't have BEGIN{} yet?
15:01 rgs autrijus: yes
15:01 Corion Ah, maybe we should have a new keyword, C<abuse> :)
15:01 stevan Corion: nope, is ends but never begins
15:01 * stevan has to get on a conf call, bbiab &
15:02 Corion stevan: Ah, Ragnarök will begin in time with the Apocalypse
15:02 jabbot pugs - 1600 - * optional unary parsed correctly.
15:02 jabbot pugs - 1599 - * add lexical $_ at startup
15:02 jabbot pugs - 1598 - * Made uc.t, ucfirst.t, lc.t, and lcfirs
15:02 Corion Perl666
15:02 Corion ... which also gives new meaning to Kerberos - it must be a triple-headed descendant of Pugs.
15:03 autrijus :D
15:03 * shapr laughs
15:06 drbean has left
15:08 Corion Oooo. With force_todo, Test.pm has taken its first fateful step in the direction of a general bug tracking system ;-)
15:12 obra oh?
15:13 theorbtwo ______ ______-______ has a very easy-to-guess name.
15:13 Corion theorbtwo: Did you hook up hangman.p6 to your irc client ? :-)
15:13 Corion E
15:14 Corion ... if Pugs had objects, I'd have written an irc client already :-)))
15:14 Corion ... or at least a simple bot.
15:14 Odin- It would seem that if Pugs had objects, CPAN would already have been rewritten. ;)
15:14 Corion But slinging around records is not as much fun. Hmmm. I don't really need objects - I could fake it all with multisubs. :)
15:15 theorbtwo This is fun!
15:16 mugwump well, if you think you might have an idea, take a look in docs/class and src/Class.hs
15:16 Corion mugwump: No - I mostly stand outside, looking inside through the windows, and stare at the marvels there. :)
15:17 metaperl has joined #perl6
15:17 mugwump wimp
15:17 mugwump :)
15:17 Corion And (multi)method dispatch is something I prefer others to touch with a long pole.
15:17 Corion ... actually I pity the poor poles.
15:17 autrijus lol.
15:18 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1596 (273/4123) | Win2k r1600 (437/4135)
15:19 theorbtwo Wow, past 1600 already.
15:19 obra pugs++ #more tests than commits
15:21 pjcj that just means it's not working yet ;-)
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15:22 shapr Corion: what do you think about mulimethods vs typeclass and/or pattern matching?
15:22 jabbot pugs - 1601 - Fix pernod's AUTHORS line
15:22 Corion Hmmm. To look at Class.hs, I first need to update my editor to something that knows UTF8
15:22 asavige has quit IRC ("must sleep now")
15:22 Corion shapr: I like pattern matching. But I'd like to toy around with multimethod dispatch too.
15:23 Corion ... but I haven't done any mmd, while I've toyed around with pattern matching on subroutines for a few days now. :)
15:23 autrijus mmd is just a fancy name for pattern matching :)
15:23 cognominal I have not seen pattern matching in Perl6.
15:23 cognominal WIll rules match types as well as values?
15:23 shapr salut cognominal
15:23 autrijus however perl 6 mmd also combines (pattern) guards
15:24 Corion autrijus: Hmmm - partly, but once inheritance comes into play, pattern matching becomes ugly :)
15:24 cognominal salut shapr :)
15:24 shapr ca va?
15:24 autrijus Corion: yeah. there's a good reason why haskell has no subtyping
15:24 cognominal sharpr, viens sur #perlfr :)
15:24 shapr ok
15:25 rgs shapr: ttention, c'est pas le même réseau
15:26 cognominal yes  #perlfr on freenode is lamer only :)
15:26 shapr hm, I can't read latin-1 when my encoding is set to utf-8
15:27 cognominal shapr, come to #Perlfr in irc.perl.fr
15:27 shapr Is Perl popular in .fr?
15:27 shapr ohh
15:28 shapr I suspect my french is not good enough :-) seulement assez pour boire biere
15:28 cognominal that's enough. we can speak english. or so we think.
15:28 rgs we can boire bière too.
15:28 theorbtwo English++
15:29 shapr redneck++ # my native language!
15:30 shapr I have considered moving to France for the 'next country'. What parts of France have the most computer scientists and programmer jobs?
15:31 cognominal Paris, Grenoble, Toulouse, Rennes...
15:31 rgs Lyon...
15:31 rgs mostly Paris
15:31 shapr Hm, Toulouse also has the most unicyclists.
15:32 jabbot pugs - 1603 - * s/achii/ascii/
15:32 jabbot pugs - 1602 - * fix invs length count misdetection dur
15:32 autrijus stevan: your bug fixed. thanks
15:35 autrijus another 43 revs today.
15:35 autrijus it does seem that pugs is keeping a steady pace.
15:35 autrijus linear sustainable growth etc :)
15:35 * shapr cheers
15:35 Corion Heh. There's a weird parsefail: my $res = (1 & 2 ^ 3); works. ok( (1 & 2 ^ 3) < 3, "and also ^"); parsefails.
15:36 Corion (I'm eliminating some string evals for warming up)
15:36 Corion ... I should maybe eliminate these weird parsefails into their own tests...
15:36 autrijus hrm? it's not a parsefail here
15:36 shapr autrijus: What do you think about QuickCheck tests? Is there a place for them in pugs? Would it be better to stick with the culturally familiar t/foo/bar.t ?
15:36 autrijus shapr: I've been meaning to add QuickCheck for a long time now
15:37 autrijus shapr: if you want, certainly go ahead and take a stab at it
15:37 autrijus so I can learn
15:37 autrijus <- did not take the time to learn quickcheck properly
15:37 Corion autrijus: Weird. Indeed. If I do pugs -e ...,  it's no parsefail, but inside the (test) script, it is. I need to investigate further...
15:37 shapr QuickCheck is straightforward, I'll put some tests in soon.
15:37 autrijus woot!
15:37 autrijus shapr++
15:37 autrijus shapr++
15:37 Corion QuickCheck?
15:37 autrijus Corion: http://search.cpan.org/dist/Test-LectroTest/
15:38 autrijus (but much easier in haskell)
15:38 shapr Corion: I wrote a short explanation about QuickCheck on the extremeperl mailing list.
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15:39 Corion Gah. All alone the test works. :(
15:40 cognominal shapr: if you are interested we have perl related mailing list in French. You can propagathe perl6 and haskell faith there
15:40 shapr haha
15:41 cognominal heresy is almost a dogma for the mongueurs (French name for mongers)
15:41 shapr I don't think haskell or perl6 are a religious issue. They are precious gems of knowledge hiding just under the surface.
15:42 jabbot pugs - 1604 - * Implemented pi().
15:42 Odin-LAP has joined #perl6
15:43 co3 has joined #perl6
15:43 shapr I think the French culture epitomizes the Greek notion of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. I really admire that facet. It does get irritating sometimes, but I only say that because my fiancee is French and can be very fiery sometimes. ;-)
15:43 autrijus op0 "pi" = const $ return . VNum $ pi
15:43 autrijus iblech++ # very convenient primitive :)
15:43 Corion Sanity check: Does pugs -e "sub ok(){};ok( (!(1 & 2 | 3) < 2, 'ditto');" fail for you?
15:44 autrijus it does because the parens are unbal
15:44 Corion D'oh. Thanks for restoring my sanity! ;)
15:44 autrijus no prob :)
15:56 Corion Grr. In t/operators/precedence.t, line 62: If I replace it with ok((1 & 2 | 3) < 3 , '& binds tighter than |'); , I get a parsefail. But with a stand-alone file, that line works. Commenting out that line makes the .t-file compile as well :-(
15:56 * Corion questions his Pugs build.
15:56 shapr does it answer?
15:56 Corion r1604, and no, it doesn't talk to me ...
15:57 shapr aww
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16:05 Corion_ Hm. I think I got the parsefail tracked down. Now I should golf it some more :)
16:05 Corion_ ... I can make it appear/disappear by deleteting lines that start with "#" :-)
16:06 autrijus that usually indicates an overeager lookahead.
16:07 autrijus shapr: re: "Practicing the Theories" on LtU
16:07 autrijus "What is a magician but a practicing theorist?" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi
16:07 Corion_ autrijus: The bug seems to be caused by having a "#" appear twice on a line. Or something like that, golfing still :)
16:08 theorbtwo Hm?  When did he say that, autrijus?
16:08 autrijus 'Return of the Jedi'
16:09 autrijus not sure of the exact scene. google a bit perhaps
16:13 pasteling "Corion" at 217.86.52.225 pasted "Parsefail with overeager list collector" (11 lines, 101B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8996
16:13 Corion has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:13 Corion_ Should I put that into a test? If so, where/what name? pugsbugs/listquote.t ?
16:14 Corion_ ... but that's a really devious parsefail :
16:14 theorbtwo I get an OK on that...
16:14 Corion_ theorbtwo: That's weird, because for me it fails. I think. Double checking
16:14 shapr autrijus: oh I like that
16:15 * theorbtwo too.
16:15 Corion_ I'm on r160x, moving to 1605, recompiling.
16:16 Corion_ ... and still "prove -v t\pugsbugs\tmp.t" fails for me.
16:16 Corion_ (text pasted from pasteling into the test file again)
16:16 theorbtwo Hm, nope.
16:16 theorbtwo ./pugs -MTest -e "ok( (1 | 3) < 3 , 'No parsefail');"
16:16 theorbtwo ok.
16:16 theorbtwo But when I put it in a file, no dice.
16:16 Corion_ theorbtwo: Look at my description and the comment line. The comment is important!!!
16:17 Corion_ theorbtwo: There is a "<" on the function call, and a closing ">" on the comment line. Pugs sees that as a qw() list.
16:17 theorbtwo Ah, I see.
16:17 Corion_ Or at least that's my interpretation of things.
16:17 theorbtwo That's evil.
16:17 theorbtwo But seems likely.
16:17 Corion_ theorbtwo: Yes. Like I said.
16:17 theorbtwo Sorry.
16:17 autrijus # in qw() is considered harmful
16:17 * theorbtwo gets tea for Jess.
16:17 Corion_ I have a day of devious discoveries :)
16:17 rblackwe has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:18 autrijus perl5 warns ths:
16:18 autrijus Possible attempt to put comments in qw() list at - line 3.
16:18 Corion_ autrijus: Then tell me how my pasted test should be written differently :)
16:18 Corion_ autrijus: It's a parser bug IMO - look at the test I pasted - I see no better way to write a comparison for "EXPR < 3" :)
16:18 autrijus Corion_: easy; you bug autrijus to fix the parser :)
16:19 autrijus EXPR<3    # this is bad, though
16:19 autrijus the whitespace is significant here iirc.
16:19 Corion_ If this does not turn out to be a stupid bug on my part, I'll put that into parsebugs :)
16:19 autrijus go ahead. put it in
16:19 Corion_ autrijus: Testing with different whitespace. In the original text it was "->" btw :)
16:20 Corion_ No, even with "(1|3)<3" ... ">" I get the parsefail. I'll put it under t/pugsbugs/listquote.t
16:20 Corion_ ... but first I need to write some docs for this test, as it is not obvious how the test works ;)
16:20 autrijus I mean
16:20 autrijus EXPR<3> # hash deref
16:21 autrijus EXPR < 3 > ... # comparison
16:21 autrijus the whitespace between EXPR and < is important
16:21 autrijus I think. I may think wrong.
16:21 Corion_ autrijus: No - "EXPR < 3 >" does not work as a comparison, or rather, makes no sense :)
16:21 autrijus EXPR<3>-3
16:21 autrijus ;)
16:21 Corion_ But there is a difference between HASH<3> and LISTOP < LIST > and LISTOP < EXPR
16:22 jabbot pugs - 1605 - * Added some more tests.
16:22 Corion_ autrijus: Yeah, but that should be forbidden / rewritten as -3 < EXPR < 3 ;)
16:22 Corion_ Anyway. Describing the test case now :)
16:23 autrijus $a < $b > $c
16:23 autrijus # is legal :)
16:23 autrijus pugs> 3 < 5 > 4
16:23 autrijus bool::true
16:23 theorbtwo I'm not sure if it should be legal.
16:23 autrijus pugs> 3<5>4
16:23 autrijus unexpected "4"
16:23 autrijus pugs got it right here.
16:23 autrijus theorbtwo: spec says it should.
16:23 Odin-LAP Hmmm.
16:23 theorbtwo We have to escape disambuguity somehow, and I think whitespace is not the right way to do that.
16:24 Odin-LAP It has precedent.
16:24 autrijus tell that to @larry? personally I think it makes sense.
16:24 Odin-LAP It makes sense, but looks a bit odd.
16:24 * castaway brumbles at elisp.
16:24 PerlJam autrijus: are you sure?  3<5> doesn't quite make sense to me.
16:25 theorbtwo 3<5>2 does.
16:25 theorbtwo (Three is less then 5, 5 is greater then 2.)
16:25 Odin-LAP ($a & $c) < $b ?
16:25 Odin-LAP :p
16:25 autrijus yeah.
16:25 PerlJam theorbtwo: right, but that's not what's happening if the 4 is unexpected.
16:25 Corion_ Anyone have S\d\d or A\d\d links handy that describe the HASH<X> and A lt B gt C behaviour ?
16:26 Corion_ ... so I can put them into the test for further reference ...
16:26 PerlJam theorbtwo: er, 2 in your example
16:28 PerlJam Corion_: isn't hash<x> in S02 ?
16:29 Corion_ Ah, but for the remaining tests, I'll simply exchange "< 3" with "!= 3" :)
16:29 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (No route to host)
16:29 Corion_ PerlJam: I wouldn't know - it's been about a year since I last looked at them.
16:29 Corion_ Anyway - the test is committed, feel free to move and/or add references.
16:29 PerlJam well, chained comparisons is in S03.
16:30 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
16:30 Corion_ Anyway - the test is committed, feel free to move and/or add references.
16:30 Corion_ Gah. Wrong window. Again.
16:31 PerlJam yeah, %hash<foo> is mentioned in S02. "Use %x<foo> for constant hash subscripts, or the old standby %x{'foo'}."
16:32 jabbot pugs - 1606 - Added listquote ambiguity test
16:35 Corion_ PerlJam: Thanks, adding
16:39 metaperl_ has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
16:40 Corion_ I've added links to the relevant Synopses too (but I can't test them, as I don't have Perl6::Bible installed yet :) )
16:42 jabbot pugs - 1608 - Added links to S02, S03 for listquote.t
16:42 jabbot pugs - 1607 - Fixed operators/precedence.t - one eval
16:44 autrijus journal up. :)
16:44 autrijus g'nite!
16:44 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
16:44 stevan g'nite
16:45 theorbtwo G'night.
16:52 ninereasons I wonder why pugs builds so fast on my freebsd machine, and so slow on linux
16:53 ninereasons the hardware is similar - seemingly not different enough to account for 1:8
16:53 metaperl__ has joined #perl6
16:54 PerlJam swap drives and see how linux performs on the same hardware
16:55 Corion_ Is there the real commit log for Pugs somewhere?
16:56 ninereasons I bet that might be it, PerlJam
16:56 chip journal link
16:56 ninereasons on www.pugscode.org, Corion_ ?
16:56 Corion_ ninereasons: Didn't see it there
16:57 ninereasons http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/P​roject/Source/index.html/pugs/log/
16:57 Corion_ chip: That's the distilled version, no?
16:57 Corion_ ninereasons: Thanks!!
16:57 ninereasons you're welcome.  It provides RSS too, from the pugscode home page
16:57 Corion_ Yeah - I saw the RSS. But that listing doesn't show the affected files with each commit :(
17:00 ninereasons oh.  bummer.  I hadn't used the RSS, but only saw that it was available.
17:00 Corion_ Ah well. svn diff -r 1580 seems to show me what I want :)
17:01 ninereasons yes, that's better.
17:02 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1607 (435/4138) | Win2k r1600 (437/4135)
17:09 Corion_ stevan: You're working on lib.pm ?
17:10 metaperl_ has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:10 metaperl__ is now known as metaperl_
17:10 Corion_ (according to The Journal)
17:23 Corion_ Gah. async{} does not play well with system() it seems. At least not on Win32. So much for testing getprint() against a locally spawned server.
17:28 shapr it's oh so quiet.... it's oh so still....
17:28 * theorbtwo drops a pin.
17:31 Corion_ I'm writing the first test that tests Perl6 external problems. async{} blocks while running a system() call, or the non-happening thereof :)
17:31 Corion_ I just don't know if that is to be considered a bug, or unspecced or whatever :)
17:31 castaway shapr!
17:31 shapr castaway!
17:32 shapr oh ye of great isolation!
17:32 castaway *g*
17:32 theorbtwo Great isolation?
17:32 Corion_ theorbtwo: You don't count, obviously! :))
17:32 * theorbtwo reaches out and touches her.
17:32 Corion_ That's what the internet is for!
17:32 castaway hmm, count?
17:33 shapr Can you be a castaway if you have internet?
17:33 castaway If a tree falls in the forest ..
17:33 ninereasons if a castaway drops off the internet, can you hear her screams?
17:34 xerox Ahah, I was writing the same thing
17:34 ninereasons :)
17:34 theorbtwo 1, 3, 5, 4, 2... I can so count!
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17:41 stevan Corion_: yes I am
17:42 stevan Corion_: however, I am not so sure about FindBin.pm,... it looks to be a can of worms
17:43 Corion_ stevan: Findbin is broken anyway, see http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=41213 - a simple "File::Spec->canonpath( dirname $0 || cwd );" should be all there is to FindBin
17:43 Corion_ (IMO at least)
17:43 Corion_ and maybe s!canonpath!rel2abs!
17:44 Corion_ stevan: Did you see/backlog my rambling about how I think "use lib;" should behave? That is, "use lib;" is equivalent to 'use lib "$FindBin::Bin/lib"'
17:45 stevan Corion_: yes I did
17:45 stevan however lib serves many other purposes
17:45 stevan (at least I use it for them)
17:47 Corion_ stevan: About 90% of my "use lib" use cases could be reduced to "use lib;" by using my way - my way doesn't ruin any other use cases, but maybe it's too uncommon ;)
17:49 Corion_ Heh. sleep() doesn't.
17:49 Corion_ ... makes testing timing issues interesting ;)
17:49 stevan Corion_: lets see what happens with FindBin, and maybe we can add the special case in there for your usage.
17:50 Corion_ Autrijus should learn to get his programs to sleep() for him! That's what computers are for!
17:50 Corion_ stevan: The Perl5 FindBin is too convoluted and wrong IMO
17:51 stevan I agree,.. I am going to read this perlmonks post and then try to duplicate the "spirit" of it, rather then the code (much like I am trying to do with CGI.pm)
17:52 Corion_ stevan++ # following the spirit, and not the letter
17:52 PerlJam indeed.  stevan++
17:54 simcop2387 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:54 ninereasons stevan, playing with hangman.p6, I made the following change, so that I wouldn't have to know exactly where AUTHORS lived
17:54 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "more portable?" (22 lines, 528B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8997
17:54 pjcj just be sure to keep NI-S's indentation style ;-)
17:54 ninereasons maybe not pretty, but it worked.
17:55 Corion_ ninereasons: For path manipulation, look either at %?CONFIG or File::Spec
17:56 Corion_ (instead of hardcoding the path_sep and splitting directories/paths yourself)
17:56 Corion_ And File::Spec should also have the updir() method
17:56 Corion_ (which returns ".." :) )
17:56 ninereasons yes.  it was in place of rx:perl5/[\w.]+$/
17:57 Corion_ ninereasons: Ewwww :)
17:57 ninereasons I think that's still in hangman.p6
17:59 stevan ninereasons: do you have commit access?
18:00 ninereasons yes, but I thought my version was too icky to commit it
18:00 stevan Corion_: actually the whole reason behind lib.pm is so we have use File::Spec in hangman without needing people to have 'make install'ed
18:00 Corion_ stevan: Well, I want lib.pm in LWP::Simple too :) And in my programs :)
18:01 stevan ninereasons: hangman is a little ugly anyway, make it use File::Spec and then commit
18:03 shapr Does hangman ask for big5 occasionally?
18:04 stevan big5?
18:04 Corion_ Heh. "time;" seems to have the same parsing problem that "last;" had. Let's see if I can fix that :)
18:04 shapr wait, AUTHORS is utf8
18:04 stevan shapr: yup
18:04 theorbtwo Yes.
18:05 theorbtwo Well, the last field is.
18:05 theorbtwo Hangman should be smart enough to know where the fields lay, though -- if it doesn't, it's a bug.
18:05 shapr right, ok
18:05 theorbtwo (The rest should be pure ASCII.)
18:06 Corion_ Oh. iblech already tests for "time+3" ;)
18:12 jabbot pugs - 1609 - Added test for correct sleep()
18:14 stevan Corion_: I am commiting lib.pm right now, it has tests, but if you want to test it some more in "real world" situations that would be helpful as well
18:14 Corion_ stevan++
18:14 stevan Corion_++
18:14 Corion_ is now known as Corion
18:15 * Corion is currently looking at implementing sleep(). usleep() doesn't seem to return the amount actually slept, right? (also, sleep() and usleep() will suspend all threads, but that's a problem I leave to other people)
18:17 shapr I'd like to call sleep() on myself for a few hours. But I only have enough time for a usleep.
18:18 theorbtwo usleep(2.88e10) ?
18:22 jabbot pugs - 1611 - whoops,... forgot to remove a test
18:22 jabbot pugs - 1610 - adding lib.pm, tests and all (this may s
18:23 elmex has joined #perl6
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18:33 elmex hallo
18:34 elmex you're so cute
18:36 stevan shapr: I think he is talking to you :P
18:36 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
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18:38 elmex has joined #perl6
18:39 elmex lets have a date
18:40 shapr wha?
18:40 ninereasons bot?
18:40 elmex ninereasons: for no chance i am a bot dude
18:40 ninereasons that's what all the bots say.
18:41 ninereasons :)
18:41 elmex ninereasons: but i can argue about that
18:45 Corion tell me more about it
18:45 elmex lol
18:46 stevan Corion: you said "tell me more about it", what did you mean by that?
18:46 * stevan considers a perl6 implementation of eliza,... hmmm
18:47 * elmex considers a perl6 implementation of women
18:52 jabbot pugs - 1612 - lib.pm: adding a few more tests, and mor
18:53 * Corion wonders what combination of Monads will unpack/repack the thing that Posix.sleep() returns into an Int.
18:54 theorbtwo @type Posix.sleep
18:55 Corion theorbtwo: IO (at least that's what the error message tells me)
18:55 Corion Now, thinking about it, why isn't that "IO Int", but a bare "IO" ?
18:55 theorbtwo Hm, just IO, not IO ()?
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18:56 Corion theorbtwo: A naked "IO"
18:57 Corion But the Pugs side of things seems to want a "ContT Val (ReaderT Env IO)"
18:57 ufk has left "Leaving"
18:57 Corion Maybe sleep(), even though it comes from POSIX, doesn't return an Int then...
18:58 theorbtwo Ah, the definition I see is sleep :: Int -> IO ().
18:58 theorbtwo But it's hardcoded to fail.
18:58 theorbtwo In any case, it shouldn't take an int.
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18:59 pasteling "Corion" at 217.86.52.225 pasted "Implementing a real sleep() builtin" (22 lines, 607B) at http://sial.org/pbot/8999
19:00 Corion theorbtwo: I plan on usleep anyway, and later on threadDelay()
19:00 Corion ... but first I want to get this to compile :)
19:00 Corion (much cargo culted stuff in the paste, of course)
19:11 Corion (much cargo culted stuff in the paste, of course)
19:11 Corion gah :(
19:13 CosmicRay has joined #perl6
19:18 Corion How can I force evaluation of a monad? Or whatever the LHS of <- is called?
19:20 shapr can you give more detail?
19:20 Corion pasting ...
19:21 wilx Use `seq`?
19:21 pasteling "Corion" at 217.86.52.225 pasted "Forcing evaluation of a function (call)" (10 lines, 251B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9003
19:22 PerlJam Corion:  <- evaluates the RHS immediately as I understand things.
19:22 shapr Corion: that looks right to me.
19:22 PerlJam = is lazy, <- is not.
19:23 shapr PerlJam: <- can be lazy, but it depends on the semantics of which monad you're using.
19:23 shapr IO isn't lazy.
19:23 theorbtwo <- is lazy in Eval, though... I think.
19:23 Corion Hmmm. Why doesn't my code sleep then ? :( It doesn't delay with either "sleep()" or "threadDelay()"
19:23 PerlJam shapr: well, there goes a little bit of haskell I thought I knew!
19:23 Corion I'm using (from the Pugs side of things) pugs -e "for (1..10) { say$_; sleep 1}"
19:23 integral <- just turns into a >>= + a lambda, PerlJam.  It's syntactic sugar.  It's up to the way you define the functions (or operators) that determines the strictness
19:23 Corion Aaah - maybe the value I want is not being passed in properly ?
19:24 Corion I should maybe first hardcode the sleep interval, just to make sure...
19:24 shapr Corion: that part also looks right tome
19:24 shapr yeah, good idea
19:25 shapr If val is lazy...
19:25 Corion I get the warning that "slept" is ignored, and that suggests to me that "slept" will also never be calculated... And it doesn't sleep with a hardcoded value either.
19:26 gaal hey all
19:26 shapr In that case, you're right, it's not sleeping =)
19:26 Corion Hi gaal!
19:27 gaal i'm improving. total time coding sitting at my own desk at work today: 2 hrs
19:27 Corion ... connection resetting soonish, DNS has already failed :) BRB
19:29 shapr Yes, you need to seq the monadic call, but I can't think of how to do it at the moment.
19:30 shapr I like wilx' suggestion, try `seq` or $!
19:30 shapr Doesn't seem quite right though.
19:31 Corion_ has joined #perl6
19:32 * theorbtwo checks in some more of External/Haskell.hs.
19:32 jabbot pugs - 1613 - More work on haskell embedding -- still
19:32 theorbtwo (Try forcing compiling with -debug, then do ./pugs +RTS -Dl -RTS -e 'require_haskell("")'
19:33 PerlJam Hrm..  /me gets email from a departing part-time worker that responses she gets from another full-timer to her questions often sound "insolent" and "condescending"
19:34 shapr PerlJam: is that good?
19:34 PerlJam I'm not sure what to make of it.
19:35 PerlJam She says the only reason she's speaking up now is because she's leaving.
19:35 * theorbtwo wonders if the coworker was being condescending because the former coworker was asking stupid questions.
19:35 wilx Hmm.
19:35 PerlJam theorbtwo: possibly, but still.
19:35 Corion has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
19:35 Corion_ is now known as Corion
19:36 PerlJam theorbtwo: the latest question she asked in email was "does anyone know of a way to automatically convert from asp to php?"  is that a stupid question?
19:36 shapr I wish everyone were confident enough to speak their mind, and doubtful enough to listen to correction. (I wish I were more like that, mostly)
19:36 wilx Remember it, if anybody else expresses the same opinion, well...
19:36 wilx Dunno what to do next :)
19:36 PerlJam shapr: me too
19:37 PerlJam (i wish you were more like that ;)
19:37 theorbtwo Fairly.
19:37 * shapr laughs
19:37 theorbtwo ASP isn't a language.
19:37 shapr PerlJam: If I were more doubtful, I'd believe you :-P
19:37 PerlJam theorbtwo: So a lack of understanding == stupidity?
19:37 theorbtwo Depends on what her job was.
19:39 PerlJam theorbtwo: there's a researcher with an oracle database and an ASP web-app that she's converting to use postgresql and apparently php.
19:39 theorbtwo If someone was hired as an expert C programmer, but doesn't know how to use printf, then there's a problem.
19:39 Corion ASP is mostly like PHP. Except where it differs ;) It's more a templating system I think, but with tag-macros
19:39 PerlJam She was hired as an expert mathematician and computer geek.  But she's not very knowledgable about many things that you or I would take for granted  (she's more math geek than computer geek)
19:40 theorbtwo OK, then that may be a reasonable question to ask.
19:40 shapr Last I worked with it, ASP used windows scripting host so you could embed any WSH language in the jsp-style <% code %> tags.
19:40 theorbtwo OTOH, she should realize that converting between things that are simply isomorphic isn't aways simple.
19:41 integral iirc ASP could do both jscript and vbscript since before wsh
19:41 * theorbtwo hopes he's using the term "simply isomorphic" correctly.
19:41 shapr When was wsh first introduced?
19:41 PerlJam theorbtwo: my answer was "the automatic way to do it is to hire a programmer who knows both and filter through his brain"  ;-)
19:41 Corion WSH is merely the command line/text file interface to the general script interpreters.
19:41 Corion If things are isomorphic, there is no need to actually perform the translation, at least for a mathematician.
19:42 PerlJam theorbtwo: also, http://www.joelonsoftware.c​om/articles/FogBugzIII.html
19:42 theorbtwo Oh, you are the coworker she was complaigning about?
19:42 shapr Wasn't there a chili-something company/product that ran ASP on linux/apache ?
19:42 PerlJam theorbtwo: no, she was actually complimenting me on how nice my answers are compared to the other guy.
19:42 PerlJam shapr: yeah, chilisoft.
19:43 PerlJam er, perhaps chillisoft
19:43 PerlJam both look odd
19:43 Corion chilloutsoft?
19:44 shapr In any case, I suspect a Parsec parser could convert all the asp source files to php-compatible files, but she'd likely have to port the scripting language code to php manually.
19:44 * shapr hugs Parsec
19:44 PerlJam shapr: or she could just compile to an AST and then write a translator from the AST to php.  et voila!  ;-)
19:45 Corion Heh. My Haskell code has about the same amount of $ chars as my Perl code. :))
19:45 * shapr snickers
19:45 Corion . o O ( create a polyglott Haskell / Perl program )
19:45 integral the perl will have more () though ;-)
19:45 shapr Corion: that would be scary.
19:46 Corion integral: Naah - function calls don't necessarily need parentheses in Perl either ;)
19:46 PerlJam and you don't often chain them like in haskell
19:46 Corion shapr: In Perl, a variable $foo can be written as "$ foo" :-)))
19:46 shapr whoa, nifty
19:47 Corion shapr: Together with the fact that "--" is a Haskell comment, this will make for a funky polyglott program (if it's possible at all)
19:47 PerlJam in perl*5*, not perl6
19:47 Corion Yeah - I'm talking P5 too :)
19:47 Corion p5 4 life, dawg!
19:47 PerlJam Corion: i'm just clarifying as this is #perl6 you know :)
19:47 Corion p6 4 Inf!
19:47 Corion PerlJam: :)))
19:48 * Corion shakes his fist at Haskell. Sleep, dammit, sleep!
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19:48 shapr Corion: can you lift the sleep call into Val?
19:48 Corion shapr: via liftIO ? Gotta try ...
19:50 Corion If you tell me how to convert a "m ()" into a "Val", I think I'm set %-}
19:51 * Corion tries a pure Haskell program, to see if threadDelay() works at all :)
19:52 * PerlJam just notices the "so" operator in Prim.hs
19:53 Corion "make it so" ? :)
19:54 PerlJam indeed.
19:54 PerlJam op0 "so" = const (return $ VBool True)
19:54 Limbic_Region chip about?
19:54 Limbic_Region seen chip
19:54 jabbot Limbic_Region: chip was seen on Thu Apr  7 00:56:20 2005
19:54 chip *bamf*
19:54 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~Bernhard/journal/24044
19:54 castaway silly jabbot, whose TZ?
19:55 Limbic_Region FYI - Parrot related use.perl journal entry
19:56 chip Thanks.
19:56 theorbtwo jabbot: seen castaway
19:56 jabbot theorbtwo: castaway was seen on Thu Apr  7 03:54:42 2005
19:57 theorbtwo That TZ.  (Taiwan time, I think.)
19:58 Limbic_Region yup (http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/) - That TZ
19:58 chip I'm suggesting Parse::RecDescent in place of antlr.
19:58 * Limbic_Region doesn't know enough about either to recommend either for a particular task
19:59 Limbic_Region when I finish with HOP, I am going to write an SQL parser in P::RD to get a better handle on it though
19:59 jdv79 how is HOP?
20:00 chip P::RD is what I used to parse U.S. mailing addresses.  It's good.
20:00 chip foo bar 100 main st apt 4 bite me -> "100 MAIN ST" "APT 4"
20:00 Limbic_Region jdv79 - what I have gotten to read so far, very good
20:00 Limbic_Region problem is - personal life is full ATM and work is well - work
20:01 PerlJam Limbic_Region: screw it all and work on pugs!
20:01 PerlJam or parrot
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20:01 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I have sworn off Pugs/Parrot/Perl6/Ponie etc until after Jean and I move into the new house
20:02 Limbic_Region either that or until I win the lottery - in which case I am going to personally fund major developers to devote full time to the 4 Ps
20:02 Limbic_Region in the interim, I am content to lurk and putting people in touch with information that may be important to them
20:03 Limbic_Region see - the people doing all the hard work don't have any time to find out what hard work other people are doing - I don't do anything except read about all that hard work and point people to each other
20:03 Corion I found P::RD too fragile and slow - it made me switch to the dark side that is Parse::YAPP
20:03 integral There's also Dan Sugalski's journal entry that suggests it's slow
20:04 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:04 Corion (and by "slow" I meant that it took more than 5 seconds to parse some basic JS three liner)
20:04 Limbic_Region well, Damian was supposed to make it faster in 2.0 but has abandoned that for greener pastures
20:04 integral (unmaintained modules)--
20:04 Corion Parser writing is better left to people who do it as part of their studies :)
20:04 Limbic_Region there is nothing saying someone else can't implement the pos() fix themself though
20:04 tmoertel_ has joined #perl6
20:05 * Limbic_Region didn't know that tmoertel was so close (in PA)
20:06 Limbic_Region I haven't looked at the source of P::RD and have no idea how much work it is to implement the optimizations, but complaining about it being slow without looking is a lot like complaining about using map in a void context (which turned out to be a 3 line patch)
20:06 gaal um
20:06 gaal i looked at it once
20:06 integral the module is a couple of thousand lines longs, and rather dense
20:07 gaal making it faster would take more than three lines.
20:07 Corion Limbic_Region: I wouldn't have switched form a recursive descent parser to something yacc-based if the problems hadn't been too big. :)
20:07 Limbic_Region gaal - not saying it wouldn't.  Just that Damian isn't the only smart person out there
20:07 gaal (even sent damian a patch)
20:07 Corion integral: The problem is, the module is distributed in its unmaintainable, converted form instead of the "P::RD" source.
20:07 gaal (not to make it faster though)
20:07 Limbic_Region damian-- then
20:08 stevan Limbic_Region: I think it is more the approach to parsing,.. recursive descent is known to be slower than some of the other approaches
20:08 integral Corion: interesting, I thought about that, but didn't think someone would be that annoying ;-)
20:08 Corion but recursive descent creates the nicest automatic error messages
20:08 gaal webgrep for dan's note on improving parsing speed
20:08 Corion integral: I don't know if it was on purpose
20:09 gaal he has a few practical tips
20:09 integral Corion: well converting it would be on purpose, and I would think he'd realise that it would make patching tricky
20:09 Limbic_Region http://www.urth.org/~metaperl/domains/semanti​c-elements.com/perl/prd/dans-blog/000235.html
20:09 Corion integral: Conversion can only take place if you already have P::RD, so he has to send out a converted version. But yes, it makes patching tricky (and drove me away)
20:10 Odin-LAP has quit IRC ("What's this button do?")
20:10 gaal exaactly
20:10 integral well one can still include bits like that in the tarball
20:10 metaperl_ that is part of Parse::RecDescent::FAQ
20:11 * gaal zzzzz&
20:12 Limbic_Region in any case, writing my SQL parser (completely toy project) in P::RD will help me to understand the issues better (and perhaps even motivate me to offer patches)
20:13 * Corion gives up on implementing sleep() :(
20:13 Corion ... but then, it's almost time to catch some myself
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20:17 CosmicRay shapr: thanks for the ParseDate suggestion.  It is *exactly* what I'm looking for.
20:17 CosmicRay err wrong channel sorry
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20:42 jabbot pugs - 1614 - use File::Spec for hangman dictionary
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21:24 Juerd What the hell is Larry up to? Does anyone know?
21:24 Juerd If so, can you warn me about what is to come?
21:28 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:37 rootmj I just created some small stupid part of p6-pugs-source-code (*.p6)  to html-tutorial generator. http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/pugs/tut/ . good night
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22:39 kungfuftr yullo all
22:45 kungfuftr what's this about a new auto-smoke program?
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