Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:37 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1615 (432/4142) | Win2k r1600 (437/4135)
02:42 jabbot pugs - 1615 - adding a few more mutli-dim tests
02:52 jabbot pugs - 1616 - * Try to include File::Spec even if we d
02:56 stevan morning autrijus
02:59 autrijus greetings stevan
03:01 autrijus how's going?
03:01 stevan good, and you?
03:01 autrijus just up and going to $work
03:02 stevan I am watching TV and getting ready to sleep :)
03:02 autrijus I think I need to fix multidim today.
03:02 stevan autrijus: that would be wonderful
03:02 autrijus :D
03:02 stevan I need it to finish CGI :)
03:03 stevan so I would be very appreciative
03:03 autrijus okie.
03:11 * ingy just spent ~30 hours in bed
03:11 autrijus good. I'd like that too
03:12 ingy actually I'm still in bed so counting...
03:12 crysflame hi, ingy
03:12 cls_bsd ingy: where's your Spoon-0.23? :D
03:12 ingy on cpan no?
03:13 ingy hmmm
03:13 cls_bsd no, only 0.22
03:13 cls_bsd although I have patches from Spork and gugod@ :p
03:13 ingy wtf
03:14 hawkaloogie has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
03:15 cls_bsd inc/.../Makefile.pm from Spork, and Makefile.PL from gugod
03:20 Khisanth Spoon and Spork ... so where is Fork?
03:21 cls_bsd fork() will die()
03:22 ingy Spork *is* a subclass of Spoon
03:22 stevan but shouldn't Spork also be a subclass of Fork?
03:23 stevan or at least a trait/role or something
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03:28 cls_bsd WebService-GoogleHack, good
03:29 autrijus the Array data type is now going to change from List to IntMap... you should notice no external effects
03:29 autrijus except operations go from O(n log n) to O(n)
03:32 bd_ has joined #perl6
03:32 jabbot pugs - 1617 - * discard MkHash newtype from HV
03:45 ingy cls_bsd: Spoon-0.23 uploaded
03:45 cls_bsd ingy: great :) thakn you
03:46 ingy it appears to actually have worked this time
03:46 ingy I *swear* I uploaded the on Monday
03:47 cls_bsd Yes, looks fine. :)
03:47 cls_bsd ingy++
03:49 Alias_ Did I hear someone mention CGI?
03:49 Alias_ Is someone planning on rewriting CGI with a new API for Perl 6?
03:49 Alias_ Can I put in my vote for PLEASE making sure it's clean and works well with mod_perl2 from the start?
03:51 ingy Alias_: fyi, Perl 6 will not suffer from the one implementation per module name problem of Perl 5
03:52 ingy so there can be more than one CGI.pm
03:52 Alias_ I know, but we are going to have one primary blessed version per name :)
03:52 autrijus "we" means "alias" :)
03:52 autrijus each entity is free to have one primary blessed version per name
03:52 Alias_ I thought "we" meant "The CPAN QA team"
03:52 autrijus sure, CPAN QA team is such an entity.
03:53 Alias_ But if someone must be the artibrar of taste, I accept your wise nomination
03:53 cls_bsd perl6-Bible..
03:53 autrijus I think perl-qa is fine for that
03:53 autrijus but I think multiple blessers is totally the way to go.
03:53 * ingy agrees
03:54 autrijus i.e. I'd subscribe to Randy Kobes's list for Win32 Apache modules, etc
03:54 Alias_ I don't care who does the blessing, so long as the "normal" way of doing things is simple
03:54 Alias_ And code never changes in meaning because of context (like mod_perl2 wanted)
03:55 Alias_ Modules looks like the most dangerous place for second system dangers to take hold ATM
03:56 Alias_ But then I never like new ideas
03:56 Alias_ Especially ones that don't come with well though out 5 page documents that explain the effect on all the stakeholders and use profiles :)
03:58 Alias_ autrijus: Oh, BTW, what mechanism do you use in M:I for stripping modules for inclusion in /inc?
03:58 autrijus Alias_: same code as PAR::Filter::PodStrip
03:59 Alias_ autrijus: I hope to do Perl::Compress, to make a compressing thingy
03:59 Alias_ autrijus: Can you easily put an optional hook in there somewhere once it's done?
03:59 Alias_ if ( installed(Perl::Compress) ) { ... } else { current code }
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04:00 autrijus sure, that'd be easy
04:01 autrijus as long as there's no self-parsing code
04:01 Alias_ self-parsing code?
04:01 autrijus seek DATA, 0, 0; my @code = <DATA>;
04:01 Alias_ um...
04:02 Alias_ PPI don't touch __DATA__
04:02 jabbot pugs - 1618 - * Array is now an IntMap.
04:02 autrijus good good
04:02 autrijus then it's all fine :)
04:02 Alias_ I presume I can remove __END__ though :)
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04:12 jabbot pugs - 1619 - * more use of monadic fixpoints in loops
04:19 shapr w00 fixpoint!
04:21 autrijus I like fixpoints and how it magically works in ContT :D
04:22 shapr yeah, fixpoint is another one of those simple and elegant ideas that does neat stuff.
04:26 * Alias_ writes his first cron job in 3 years
04:26 Alias_ It's a lot easier than it used to be
04:26 ingy ?
04:26 shapr I couldn't get my head around fixpoint for a long time, but after enough reading I saw that it's just an all-monad safe Haskell implementation of Y used for a higher order recursion combinator. Not so scary after all.
04:26 Alias_ I have horribly memories of adding manual entries to the crontab
04:26 Alias_ maybe more like 6 years
04:26 Alias_ Now it seems that dron.daily is nice and easy
04:26 Alias_ cron.daily
04:26 ingy has it changed in 6 years?
04:27 Alias_ I don't think the cron.daily/hourly were used as much
04:27 Alias_ At least, not on whatever distro I was using 6 years ago
04:27 puetzk ingy: only in that most distros now supply a stock crontab that does run-parts on some dirts
04:27 puetzk dirs
04:28 Alias_ yeah, I don't think cron itself has changed, just that the distro are provide default setups that are more friendly
04:50 ingy someone tell thorbtwo that I added a Perl6::Bible->get_raw method for him
04:51 ingy I think I will release Perl6-Bible immeditately after every pugs release
04:51 ingy (if needed)
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04:54 autrijus did you include PDD and PA?
05:00 autrijus that's parrot and pugs docs
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05:51 crysflame ingy: heh, cool
05:51 crysflame 21:50 < ingy> someone tell thorbtwo that I added a Perl6::Bible->get_raw method for him
05:51 crysflame theorbtwo: ping
05:52 crysflame it's 22:52 my time
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06:07 Daniel_Nee Hi, Autrijus
06:08 gaal morning all
06:10 Daniel_Nee Cindy told me this morning, there're some e-mail attachments missing since the changes made on Monday, she would like us to get it solve this afternoon.
06:15 theorbtwo Pong.
06:17 theorbtwo Mornin, all.
06:20 shapr theorbtwo: greetings!
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06:21 shapr theorbtwo: Sadly, I spout that kind of random confusion so often no one believes me anymore.
06:22 shapr Like, my name is Erisson, some people are beginning to notice the connection.
06:26 theorbtwo Connection?
06:26 shapr hail eris?
06:28 theorbtwo Oh.
06:29 crysflame theorbtwo: ingy message for you ping
06:29 theorbtwo Pong.
06:29 theorbtwo Saw it.
06:29 crysflame :)
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07:01 shapr mugwump: Are you using a perl6 irc client now?
07:01 mugwump no, should I be?  :)
07:02 shapr just curious, I saw the mugwumptest
07:02 mugwump ? does such a beat exist, I wonder
07:02 mugwump *beast*
07:03 castaway you could try porting irssi :)
07:03 shapr I could wrap lambdabot/hircules into Pugs. That's kind of cheesy though.
07:03 mugwump sure
07:03 mugwump pugs -e 'eval_perl5("irssi.pl")'
07:04 * shapr grins
07:04 castaway cheat :)
07:05 mugwump Actually a wrapper around the haskell curses library would probably go a long way to that sort of thing
07:08 crysflame win 5
07:08 * shapr places a bet on camel 6!
07:10 * mugwump & # food
07:15 cls_bsd camel6
07:15 * theorbtwo notes that it's the camel 4th ed that will cover p6.
07:16 shapr When castaway says you're her pal, is that actually short for palantir?
07:17 * castaway doesnt recall ever having said that :)
07:17 * castaway ruffles shapr.
07:18 * shapr gets ruffled - http://www.scannedinavian.org​/~shae/foto/need_haircut.jpg
07:20 castaway iek, hairy monster :)
07:21 castaway note to self: install sql navigator in a VM and suspend it (doesnt count evaluation days if still running ,)
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07:23 theorbtwo Mornin, meta.
07:23 metaperl gm theorbtwo
07:23 metaperl where does your name come from BTW?
07:24 theorbtwo It was just "theorb", but there were too many of them, so I became "theorbtwo".
07:25 theorbtwo "two" because everybody else at the time was postpending digits.
07:26 * theorbtwo wonders why he keeps saying "postpending" instead of "appending".
07:26 shapr postfixing?
07:33 theorbtwo see also perlmonks.org/?node=theorbtwo's+name+space
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07:36 Darren_Duncan hello, anyone here?
07:37 * shapr snores quietly
07:37 Darren_Duncan quick question ...
07:37 Darren_Duncan I'm starting to release my perl 6 modules on cpan, but I wanted to ...
07:38 Alias_ err... we can do that?
07:38 Darren_Duncan say the right thing in my makefile.pl so that CPAN does not index parts of the distro, such as the perl 6 modules themselves, because there would be a name conflict with the perl 5 versions
07:38 Darren_Duncan I noticed some distros say no_index or 'private' in their Meta.yml
07:38 Alias_ you need no_index entries in the METAL
07:38 Alias_ META
07:39 Darren_Duncan and I'm wondering what to put in my makefile so that 'make dist' puts no_index in the Meta file?
07:39 Alias_ erm... not sure
07:39 Alias_ Module::Install does it for me
07:39 Darren_Duncan I tried grepping Makemaker but nothing found
07:39 Alias_ are you doing modules with both P5 and P6 code? Or just P6 code?
07:39 wolverian Darren_Duncan: I don't know if that's a good idea.
07:39 Darren_Duncan so how do distros that don't use Module::Install do it?
07:40 Alias_ by hand I imagine
07:40 wolverian besides; http://freepan.org/modules.html
07:40 Darren_Duncan the Makefile is pure perl 5
07:40 Alias_ Make the Meta file from scratch yourself and make sure makemaker doesn't overwrite it
07:40 Darren_Duncan the modules themselves are pure perl 6
07:40 Alias_ umm... why are you putting them on CPAN then?
07:40 Darren_Duncan essentially, I want to do for myself what Pugs used to do with its /modules directory
07:40 Alias_ if P6 doesn't support CPAN, and CPAN doesn't support P6
07:41 wolverian currently the plan is to use FreePAN.
07:41 Darren_Duncan this is meant to be a 'current state of things' snapshot
07:41 Alias_ I would suggest that at the moment it could only be a bad thing to release that way, via CPAN
07:41 Darren_Duncan even if I used Freepan, I wanted to still have gzipped snapshots the old way on cpan also
07:42 Darren_Duncan for now, I don't expect the perl 6 code to be executed ... think of these like documentation-only releases
07:43 Darren_Duncan ...
07:43 metaperl Locale::KeyedText works in p6 doesn't it?
07:43 Darren_Duncan it requires object support
07:44 Darren_Duncan afaik, it does not yet
07:45 Darren_Duncan what I want is to have a distro channel that is like CPAN in that I can put my own gzips up there and they are listed, for Perl 6 stuff
07:45 Darren_Duncan since Freepan is new, I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, I prefer to maintain a copy both there and on the old CPAN
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07:47 Darren_Duncan my anticipated problem is because there are perl 5 and 6 modules with the same NAME pod in them, and the CPAN indexer can get confused unless I tell it to hide the perl 6 one; people would view it through the MAKEFILE link
07:47 Darren_Duncan I like the backup capabilities that CPAN provides; put work up there and its mirrored world wide
07:49 Alias_ There is _so_ much potential for confusing the indexer, even with no_index on...
07:49 Alias_ There could be other things in there you aren't expecting
07:50 Alias_ version_from, for example
07:50 Alias_ or who knows what...
07:50 mugwump Yes, please don't do that.  We'll have a mirror shortly.  The system is already on a mirrored box, and has nightly backups
07:50 rblackwe has joined #perl6
07:51 theorbtwo jabbot: seen corion
07:51 jabbot theorbtwo: I havn't seen corion , theorbtwo
07:51 Darren_Duncan Okay, so say I keep the perl 6 stuff off cpan then ...
07:51 castaway he was on PM just now
07:51 castaway doesnt seem to join here til evenings
07:52 Darren_Duncan does Freepan have the capacity for me to do this ...
07:53 Darren_Duncan I want to upload 4 tgz distro-style files representing snapshots of my perl 6 modules at different points in time, with additional ones occasionally
07:54 Darren_Duncan they are snapshots in the same way that traditional CPAn releases are snapshots of a developed product
07:54 mugwump please, load them in as unpacked source files.  Set the property freepan:version in the root of the project to "tag" the version
07:55 mugwump There is no difference between a tgz snapshot and one extracted from the source files which are exactly the same as that tarball's contents
07:55 mugwump s/extracted/generated/
07:55 mugwump That way, CPAN doesn't have to be so massive
07:55 Alias_ mugwump: space is cheap
07:56 mugwump Recently Jesse Best tried loading all of backpan into a subversion repository (well, all the A's :) and it was smaller
07:56 mugwump than the version on mini-capans
07:57 mugwump space efficiency is good.  "disk is cheap" is IMHO always been an excuse for people "not tidying their room"
07:57 Alias_ My way is tons more space efficient for me
07:57 Alias_ None of these pesky LICENSE files lying around
07:57 Alias_ just one that gets put into the tarball before upload
07:57 Darren_Duncan is there a requirement that all parts of a tag are aligned to a SVN release number?
07:57 Alias_ And a common MANIFEST.SKIP file
07:57 Alias_ oh, and only one 99_pod.t
07:58 Alias_ And did I mention that the release packager automatically checks newlines and POD and updates the copyrights and versions and writes the Changes file checks that every .pm file /t is indexed
07:58 Alias_ etc etc etc
07:59 Alias_ How am I supposed to maintain my obviously far more efficient method of storing modules, if you insist on unrolling everything
07:59 * Alias_ bows
07:59 Darren_Duncan eg, if I wanted to upload 4 versions of a ChangeLog, one at a time, each version being a 'newer release' of the last, can I then say that each of the first 3 uploads is tagged the same as how all the other files were as of several weeks ago?
07:59 Darren_Duncan I want to make tags so it looks like the ChangeLog was there in the past
08:00 Darren_Duncan so if a dist was made from a certain tag, it would include a 'so far in this distro' changelog
08:00 Darren_Duncan the files I refer to contain more information than the commit comments
08:00 Darren_Duncan so commit comments aren't s substitute
08:01 Darren_Duncan the change log is summary style, like that released with the Pugs distro
08:02 mugwump sure.  well, ideally you'd get it right the first time ;)
08:02 mugwump but in lieu of that, I can suggest two options
08:02 mugwump I can blaze your repository, and you can upload the revisions to it as you intended them to be
08:03 mugwump or, we can decide that the "last" revision that has freepan:version set to a particular value is considered to be the release repository version
08:04 Darren_Duncan alternately, I suppose I could write the ChangeLog file to summarize the past 3 and current 1 release, but the file itself only actually exists in the current 1 release
08:04 mugwump or, maybe instead of using these tags, we can change things so that we use the "cheap copying" subversion trick, ie, have a standard layout of trunk/, /releases/, etc
08:04 Darren_Duncan and I'll do the normal tagging for the first 3
08:04 mugwump sure.  that sounds simplest.
08:04 Darren_Duncan then you don't have to blaze anything
08:04 mugwump :)
08:05 Darren_Duncan I'll do that then ... tomorrow
08:05 Darren_Duncan and while I'm at it, I'll add a readme and other such files
08:06 Darren_Duncan FYI, the collected release 4, or separate LKT 4 + SRT 2, will match the CPAN perl 5 releases I did a couple days ago
08:06 Darren_Duncan while Freepan has almost-current versions, they don't have a few bug fixes
08:06 Darren_Duncan will fix that
08:07 Darren_Duncan question ...
08:07 Darren_Duncan does the Freepan web site contain any management utilities, such as for tagging, or do I need to use my 'svn' client program to do it?
08:08 Darren_Duncan nevermind, I'll investigate it tomorrow
08:08 Darren_Duncan good night
08:08 Darren_Duncan and thanks for all your feedback
08:08 Darren_Duncan now I know not to make some stupid mistakes
08:11 mugwump Darren_Duncan: most of this 'crazy' property setting stuff will be something the freepan script does for you
08:11 Darren_Duncan I'll learn it as I go along
08:11 mugwump setting the password is the craziest one, it sends a digest of your password to the server in a property, then the server actually rejects the update with the message "password successfully changed"
08:11 Darren_Duncan I actually haven't hooked my svn to freepan yet ... it last committed to the Pugs repository
08:12 mugwump so that the digested password isn't extractable :)
08:12 jabbot pugs - 1620 - Add some more lc and uc tests.
08:12 Darren_Duncan Anyway, thanks to whom it concerns for Freepan ... it looks to be a valuable tool
08:13 mugwump That's the idea ... remember any good ideas how it can be better will be gladly accepted on the wiki
08:13 Darren_Duncan I'll have to learn where it is before I can suggest where it will go
08:13 mugwump (discuss them here too, of course ;))
08:13 mugwump wiki.freepan.org
08:13 Darren_Duncan oy
08:14 Darren_Duncan I note that that opening page seems to be full of broken image links
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08:15 Darren_Duncan a row of them by the search box
08:15 Darren_Duncan only the tree in the corner shows up
08:15 Darren_Duncan checking in another browser ...
08:15 mugwump oh, sure.  yeah I see it
08:16 Darren_Duncan the second browser (Firefox) shows text in the place of the images
08:16 Darren_Duncan the one with the question marks for images is Safari
08:17 mugwump Wow, safari doesn't even grok html 1.0
08:17 mugwump that's impressive
08:17 mugwump I thought alt tags were universally understood ... amazing
08:17 Darren_Duncan it's supposed to be fully up to date
08:18 Darren_Duncan maybe I'll report that as a bug
08:18 mugwump I've got a better idea, bang your head against a brick wall
08:18 mugwump it will probably result in more action ;)
08:18 * mugwump is so cynical it hurts ...
08:20 Darren_Duncan I love Wikis ... making it easy to make links that don't go anywhere
08:21 mugwump yeah.  It sure makes it look like there's a lot of information, though
08:23 mugwump Apache--  # stinking pile of shite, another crappy configuration snafu
08:23 Darren_Duncan now, according to the Freepan wiki, it is supposed to be complementary to cpan
08:24 mugwump sure
08:24 Darren_Duncan freepan shows works in progress, and cpan is for packages tied up with string
08:24 Darren_Duncan so while I plan to use freepan, what's the best way to distribute neat packages, today and in the future?
08:24 Darren_Duncan made of perl 6 code
08:25 Darren_Duncan or shall I not even try for the near future?
08:26 mugwump Are you volunteering to write a little script to check out an SVN version and make a tarball?  :-)
08:26 Darren_Duncan I don't know whether it already does that or not
08:27 Darren_Duncan off topic - mugwump, what part of the world are you in?
08:27 mugwump well, that's the plan as to how it will work.  It would have rules based on what the freepan:type of the module is that would look at MANIFEST & MANIFEST.SKIP to build the tarball
08:27 mugwump Right now, Taipei
08:27 Darren_Duncan so it's day over there
08:28 mugwump Tomorrow I'm flying back to Wellington, New Zealand
08:28 Darren_Duncan not too far away from where you are, relatively speaking
08:28 mugwump where are you based?
08:28 Darren_Duncan I'm based near Victoria, BC, Canada
08:28 Darren_Duncan so it's 1:30am here
08:29 Darren_Duncan anyway, good night
08:29 Darren_Duncan for me
08:30 mugwump night
08:30 Darren_Duncan but good bye anyway
08:30 mugwump 8:30pm NZ time now
08:30 Darren_Duncan I hear ya
08:30 Darren_Duncan and out ...
08:30 Darren_Duncan has left
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08:42 * theorbtwo wonders why G is merged, instead of M.
08:44 * castaway wonders what G and M are
08:44 scw M -> modified
08:45 theorbtwo http://scm.sipfoundry.org/svndoc/re28.html doesn't list modified.
08:46 scw sure, M only appears at `svn st'
08:46 theorbtwo Hm.
08:52 jabbot pugs - 1621 - Fix "undefined" var error to "undeclared
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09:22 jabbot pugs - 1622 - * small cleanup on HTTP::Headers about t
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10:10 autrijus rehi.
10:10 autrijus has quit IRC (Client Quit)
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10:15 theorbtwo Greetings, autrijus of the unreliable connection.
10:15 autrijus greetings.
10:15 castaway autrijus: You use SubEthaEdit, right?
10:15 Daniel_Nee has left
10:15 autrijus I'll prolly disconnect in another half hour or so
10:16 castaway Can the client share documents, as well as the server side?
10:16 autrijus doing buildworld/installworld now
10:16 autrijus castaway: not sure what you mean.
10:17 castaway the side that initiates the connection is the client, the other is the server. once the connection is there, does it matter who has the documents?
10:17 castaway (hmm, TCMMMStatus both ways, so probably it doesnt)
10:17 autrijus I do not think it does.
10:17 * castaway nods
10:19 kungfuftr moo
10:22 theorbtwo Autrijus, have you tried the haskell module loading stuff with my newest changes?  I'm not sure where to go from here.
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10:23 autrijus theorbtwo: I had not. maybe you need to load dependency packages?
10:23 autrijus I'll take a look after dinner
10:23 autrijus <- freshly off $work
10:23 theorbtwo Nod.
10:23 castaway lucky for some :)
10:24 autrijus using perl6 and haskell at $work usually means easy and fast debugging :)
10:24 theorbtwo Hm, I did disable some of the hardcoded loading you did, but I tried pairing SHA1 down to the point where it was pretty much nothing, and still got missing symbols.
10:24 theorbtwo And those symbols are present in objdump --syms ./pugs.
10:24 clkao another perl5 bug hit me today
10:24 autrijus you'd need to load libHSbase again and explicitly (I think)
10:25 autrijus theorbtwo: have you traced the example in DynamicLoader
10:25 autrijus ?
10:25 autrijus clkao: mm?
10:25 clkao some nasty rebless / overload crap
10:25 * castaway decides its lunchbreak time
10:25 theorbtwo Hm, I haven't, autrijus.
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11:35 ingy hi theorbtwo
11:36 theorbtwo IT WORKS!
11:36 ingy ?
11:36 theorbtwo I HAVE MADE FIRE^W^W LOADED ["sha1"]!
11:36 ingy yow!
11:36 gaal theorbtwo++
11:37 ingy theorbtwo++
11:37 theorbtwo Of course, I still need a few bits and pieces, because I did this in no small part by commenting out most of SHA1__0_0_1.hs.
11:37 castaway wow, grats love!
11:37 theorbtwo But I think I know what many of them are.
11:38 theorbtwo ingy, saw you added the method I wanted to P6::Bible, thanks, I haven't yet fixed categorize_tests to use it, though.
11:38 ingy theorbtwo: I made your bible request patch fyi
11:38 ingy ah
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12:11 shapr w00h00
12:11 kungfuftr ingy: is there an faq somewhere about uploading to freepan, etc?
12:12 * castaway looks at shapr.
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12:20 mugwump kungfuftr: point SVN at http://tpe.freepan.org/repos/kungfuftr/
12:21 kungfuftr ah... i sees
12:23 Limbic_Region not sure if gugod mentioned this previously http://wagner.elixus.org/~gugod/pugs.png but I saw the link in use.perl and found it interesting
12:23 shapr churn == rate of change?
12:24 shapr ah I see
12:24 shapr that would be neat to include with the smoke-test.
12:24 mugwump big spikes by the .po file updates
12:24 shapr Is there a smoke-test churn graph?
12:25 Limbic_Region shapr, in the absense of gugod - you can read the journal entry http://use.perl.org/~gugod/journal/24047
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12:26 castaway hawo nm
12:27 shapr castaway: I thought that was mandarin at first, nyehowma
12:27 nothingmuch HOLA
12:27 nothingmuch caps, aah!
12:28 shapr ¿como est as?
12:28 mugwump ¿utf-8?
12:29 castaway na, just written-as-spoken
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12:32 kungfuftr theorbtwo: hhhmmm... you know if anyones made any motions towards modularising the testgraph/smoke/harness stuff?
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12:37 nothingmuch kungfuftr: i've pondered about it
12:37 nothingmuch and given some free time i will
12:37 * nothingmuch is too busy to do anything but lurk
12:38 * kungfuftr is tempted
12:38 nothingmuch please do
12:38 nothingmuch what we need to do:
12:39 mugwump 1. take action, not plan
12:39 nothingmuch std TAP to allow always reporting of CALLER::CALLER etc
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12:39 nothingmuch mugwump: in theory
12:39 mugwump :-)
12:39 mugwump 2. write tests
12:39 nothingmuch 2. make the backlinking a bit less hardcody
12:40 nothingmuch 3. factor yaml harness format:
12:40 nothingmuch { smoker => { id stuff }, report => { structure } }
12:40 nothingmuch with a more solid, hierarchal namespace
12:41 * kungfuftr is currently seperating out his churn melarky
12:42 nothingmuch kungfuftr: try to generalize so that yaml harness could make sense for replacing Test::Reporter's guts
12:43 kungfuftr nothingmuch: huh?
12:43 kungfuftr ah right... hhhmmm...
12:43 nothingmuch it needs to be reusablwe
12:43 nothingmuch it should be valid for modules too
12:43 nothingmuch right now it's too pugs specific
12:43 nothingmuch and "real" releases as well as multi VCS revision info
12:44 nothingmuch even wacky stuff such as darcs context
12:44 nothingmuch ofcourse, you don't have to do all that
12:44 nothingmuch i'm just listing things I foresaw as troubler
12:44 nothingmuch testgraph needs a bit of a cleanup IMHO
12:44 nothingmuch syntax wise
12:44 nothingmuch it's a bit too scriptish for what it does, methinks
12:45 kungfuftr nothingmuch: shush!
12:45 kungfuftr =0P
12:46 nothingmuch another thing is it needs to have a generic way of doing stuff
12:46 nothingmuch like:
12:46 nothingmuch linking to doc: sprintf like format? callback?
12:46 Sebastian has joined #perl6
12:46 nothingmuch consolidating results: should it know a consolidated result format?
12:46 nothingmuch what does consolidating mean?
12:46 nothingmuch i'd like to be able to merge together reports per platform, per revision, per ....
12:47 nothingmuch and see yellow where things don't exactly match
12:47 castaway ,)
12:47 kungfuftr nothingmuch: yeah, that'd need a central repository though
12:47 nothingmuch kungfuftr: nono
12:47 nothingmuch make the input valid as consolidated
12:47 nothingmuch or standalone
12:47 kungfuftr ah, i see
12:48 * kungfuftr shall have a looky later
12:48 nothingmuch that is, the yaml harness format should know to represent both cases
12:48 nothingmuch and then we can whip up a script to merge the results
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12:58 * gaal reappears
12:58 gaal the yaml harness isn't *too* pugs specific
13:00 gaal we might consider making Test.pm use a more programmatic-friendly output format instead of TAP when it knows the yaml harness is running it
13:00 Sebastian is now known as caveman
13:00 theorbtwo I don't think any of it is terribly pugs-specific.
13:00 theorbtwo The most pugs-specific bit I can think of is the bit that gets the POD, given the first half of a link.
13:01 gaal it needs to factor out the source control revision detection stuff
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13:06 caveman is now known as jsbach
13:07 * kungfuftr wonders if there is a nice way to build up a nice UUID on a "per host-per user" way
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13:24 theorbtwo kungfuftr: Generate a UUID, and save it.
13:29 mugwump ]][[gg\\hh]]hh
13:34 theorbtwo Hm, I now have SHA1 fully loading from the External.Haskell point of view, at least, but I'm not sure it's working.
13:34 theorbtwo Also, the way I did it is horribly horribly hackish.
13:35 theorbtwo ...and, finally, I'm not sure it's working within Externals.
13:38 * mugwump loses another 10 minutes of his life because Linux sux
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13:40 kungfuftr theorbtwo: yeah, would be nice to be able to generate the same ID if you lost it, etc.
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13:52 * kungfuftr also thinks about serialising with Storable as an option (at least for local usage)
13:54 mugwump yaml!
13:54 * mugwump apologises for that possibly redundant outburst, and blames turett's syndrome
13:55 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1622 (451/4159) | Win2k r1600 (437/4135)
13:56 stevan so mugwump have you read much William S. Burroughs? or just Naked Lunch?
13:58 mugwump I haven't read his life works or anything like that
13:59 mugwump In fact only two of his books :)
13:59 stevan neither have I, I prefer the earlier stuff
13:59 stevan which books?
13:59 mugwump Junky and TNL
13:59 stevan good ones :)
13:59 mugwump I really like his spoken word albums though
14:00 stevan I have this great book of his art,.. some really cool stuff "painted" with a shotgun
14:00 mugwump And I once saw a play called "Word Virus", by a local group of students ... covered the whole 50s counterculture scene
14:00 stevan I tried reading The Lost Boys, but it gets a little too much into his fetishes
14:00 mugwump heh, him and boys huh
14:00 stevan LOL, yes
14:01 * theorbtwo is unsure where to go from here with the loading stuff, other then to move to hsplugins.
14:01 theorbtwo The problem is that the .o files we're trying to load don't carry their own dependency information.
14:01 stevan I actually read a really good biography of him as well,.. I borrowed it from a friend so I dont recall the title offhand
14:01 stevan he was a very interesting character
14:02 mugwump Red cover?  fairly thick, 400-=600 pages or so?
14:02 stevan mugwump: honestly I dont recall the cover, but it was about that many pages
14:02 mugwump Perhaps that was "Word Virus" :).  I've got that, but have so far been too lazy to read it
14:03 mugwump Pretty sad, really, considering my nick
14:03 * mugwump shrugs and sips some coloured translucent fluid from a tall glass cup with a straw
14:03 stevan I always enjoy reading bios of authors, it gives such insight into their work
14:03 mugwump Yeah ... I'm really enjoying Hunter S. Thompson's final work
14:04 * stevan spreads some almond-flavored hash butter onto his toast
14:04 kungfuftr *cough* Storable!
14:04 stevan mugwump: Curse of Lono is one of my all time favorite books
14:04 theorbtwo *cough* Ramen!
14:04 stevan HST is a friggin nutcase :)
14:04 stevan Fear and Loathing is a classic as well
14:04 kungfuftr hhhmmm... ramen... *drool*#
14:04 stevan the movie was excellent
14:04 * kungfuftr misses his yakiniku
14:06 mugwump I watched a documentary on Johnny Depp, and it didn't even mention FaLiLV
14:06 stevan mugwump: odd, that was one of his best roles (IMHO of course)
14:06 mugwump nor the time Johnny spent in Grenada or wherever it was
14:07 stevan mugwump: you ever read Phillip K Dick?
14:07 mugwump not much
14:08 stevan his later work can get as strange as Burroughs at times (but with less *ahem* boys)
14:09 rgs valis ?
14:09 stevan rgs: valis is a great book
14:09 rgs I've read "divine invasion" on sunday
14:09 stevan rgs: nice
14:10 stevan Flow my Tears the Policeman Said, and Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldridtch are my other two favorite PKD
14:11 stevan he is good to help un-twist your brain after a day of brain-twisting programming
14:12 rgs I concur
14:12 * stevan considers a READINGLIST file to go along with the VICTUALS
14:13 autrijus go ahead and add it :D
14:13 stevan :)
14:14 * obra wonders if these should be kwidfiles that get installed
14:14 obra perldoc Pugs::ReadingList
14:14 obra perldoc Pugs::Victuals
14:18 autrijus argggh no :p
14:18 stevan I think we got rid of the Pugs:: namespace too
14:19 theorbtwo Hm?  Pugs:: sounds like a good namespace for things that are Pugs-specific, and not p6-general, like the PA series.
14:19 obra whatever namespace.
14:19 obra I just meant "Are these things useful enough to be part of the installed distribution?"
14:20 autrijus not thinking so. certainly not Victuals.
14:20 autrijus probably not readlinglist :)
14:21 castaway "use"ful? :)
14:21 theorbtwo Well, readinglist is what's suggested to read if you want to learn how to hack pugs, no?  In that case, people who are reading it would want the source anyway.
14:22 obra that was my assumption. but if it's paired with victuals, perhaps it's a list of "what should I read to have my mind warped?"
14:22 stevan theorbtwo: not really, I was thinking a more general list, not just programming books
14:22 jabbot pugs - 1623 - adding documentation and more @INC paths
14:22 stevan obra: yes, thats what I am thinking,.. mind warping and such
14:22 obra ah. then yeah, I withdraw the suggestion
14:22 stevan however I think those who are so inclined will dig through and find it
14:23 theorbtwo Oh, shouldn't be installed if it's got nothing to do with what people are installing pugs for.
14:24 stevan autrijus: what is the current Haskell book recommendation?
14:24 autrijus stevan: Algorithms, School of Expressions, Craft, in that order
14:24 stevan ok
14:25 theorbtwo What would be a good intro to Haskell for mathematicians with a little programming experince?
14:25 kungfuftr hhhmmm... a more sane @INC... now that would be lovely
14:25 mugwump theorbtwo: I'm really liking _Two Dozen Short lessons in Haskell_
14:26 mugwump I was a mathematician before a programmer
14:27 * castaway wonders which mathematician theorbtwo is referring to
14:27 theorbtwo My sister.
14:27 osfameron castaway++
14:27 castaway hmm, osfameron  ?
14:27 castaway ah
14:28 stevan I can't find the Algorithms book? What is the full name?
14:28 autrijus Algorithms : A Functional Programming Approach (International Computer Science Series) [Paperback]
14:28 autrijus By: Fethi A. Rabhi, Guy Lapalme
14:28 stevan autrijus: thanks
14:30 stevan I think Higher Order Perl should go on the list (although my copy has not yet arrived)
14:30 autrijus well, if anything, it will teach you on how bad perl5 is to write complex code ;)
14:30 stevan :)
14:31 Khisanth stevan: where did you order it from? I trying to find a site that doesn't require you to create an account with them just to order a book :/
14:31 stevan Khisanth: bookpool, but you have to create an account there
14:32 castaway how else do you want to order it? *wonder*
14:32 Khisanth gah, I hate online retailers
14:32 * mugwump will be ordering a copy of the brick when he returns to NZ
14:32 Khisanth castaway: I don't know, they take my money and send me the book? :)
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14:32 autrijus I wonder if the file should be called READTHEM
14:32 castaway yeah, but how do they know where to? and how did you want to check on your order, without an accont?
14:33 castaway anyway, just find one that you can also call, and voila, problem solved
14:33 Khisanth bleh they would probably want me to register over the phone
14:33 castaway would be odd
14:34 autrijus mugwump: I heard you've added a passage from Dao De Jing to your module docs. what is that? :)
14:34 Khisanth so is requiring an account in the first place! :p
14:35 mugwump my, word travels fast, I haven't even saved the buffer yet
14:35 Khisanth castaway: checking your order is one of those nice to have things, not a MUST have
14:35 mugwump It's a very tongue-in-cheek bit for Perldoc::Parser::XML
14:36 castaway all this paranoia
14:37 stevan autrijus: The Silmarillion of course
14:37 * shapr thinks castaway is stalking him
14:37 castaway meeee?
14:37 theorbtwo No, shapr, she's stalking me.
14:37 autrijus stevan: *blink*
14:37 shapr Oh, you get to be paranoid then. Lucky you!
14:37 theorbtwo No, I just trust her.
14:38 stevan autrijus: I assume one blink is yes, two blinks is no
14:38 * castaway smiles
14:38 shapr mugwump: Is that the Brick Book?
14:40 mugwump none other!
14:41 autrijus and Brick part II as well
14:41 autrijus I hope
14:41 shapr I still haven't got that one.
14:42 * castaway smooches theorbtwo. :)
14:42 shapr I really want to read about region allocation. Did you see the recent connection between pi-calculus and region allocation on LtU? Fascinating stuff.
14:42 shapr Makes me wonder if there's a more general computational shape theory floating around out there.
14:42 autrijus I've read about it. sadly, without practical application, my understanding stays shallow
14:42 autrijus <- must connect theory to practice to understand anything
14:43 shapr It's vaguely possible that connection could allow formal descriptions of an algorithm to be automatically parallelized.
14:43 * theorbtwo wonders -- brick book?
14:43 theorbtwo I know the BOLTs, but BRICK?
14:44 autrijus theorbtwo: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/tapl/ -- the book that inspired pugs
14:44 autrijus or, in other words, pugs wouldn't have been started if not for this book (and lots of caffeine)
14:44 shapr heh
14:44 theorbtwo Ah.
14:44 stevan autrijus: that is on the list too :)
14:45 theorbtwo I was trying to think of a Tolkien book that'd be called the brick book, and failing.
14:46 autrijus "Beowulf"
14:46 cognominal autrijus: the followup on TAPL is just a compilation of papers available from the net or is it more than that?
14:46 autrijus cognominal: it is blessed with pierce's superior editorship.
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14:47 autrijus some chapters are available on the net, some are not.
14:47 autrijus the point though is that the chapters flowed with a coherent narrative.
14:47 cognominal it is [retty expensive to I wanted to know if it was worth to buy it
14:47 autrijus well, if you can only buy one, buy TaPL of course
14:47 autrijus and scour the net for ATTaPL chapters
14:48 cognominal I got TAPL
14:48 cognominal and got some papers from ATTaPL
14:48 cognominal I have to read for months
14:48 * shapr grins
14:49 cognominal I am happy that pugs translated that in something concrete for me
14:49 shapr At least you'll be able to buy the T-Shirt - http://www.cafepress.com/skicalc
14:50 cognominal and the knowledge will suffuse into me?
14:50 autrijus mmm, JRR's beowulf is 461 pages
14:50 autrijus so probably worth calling it a brick book too: http://www.amazon.com/exec/ob​idos/tg/detail/-/0866982906/
14:51 Limbic_Region autrijus - did you see http://wagner.elixus.org/~gugod/pugs.png ?
14:51 autrijus oh hrm. no, that's the critics
14:51 autrijus the translation of JRR's is still in the works
14:51 autrijus why yes, I did; in fact I asked him to write SVK::Churn :)
14:51 autrijus so I can put graphs into my talk.
14:51 autrijus I did that... I think an hour before my talk
14:51 shapr Here's the back of the shirt in greater detail: http://www.scannedinavian.org/~shae/HM-t-shirt.png
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14:52 autrijus shapr: ah. wonderful.
14:52 jabbot pugs - 1624 - adding READTHEM file (everybody add your
14:52 autrijus I believe that's the first page I found about haskell wiki
14:52 shapr QuotesPage?
14:53 autrijus by googling for ken shan (an old friend of mine)
14:53 shapr ah neat
14:54 * theorbtwo sniffs as he finds that he isn't quoted on the QuotesPage at all.
14:55 shapr theorbtwo: you're on my personal QuotesPage though.
14:58 castaway and thats better! :)
14:58 shapr right!
14:59 shapr Is there a collection of perl quotes somewhere?
15:00 theorbtwo fortune -m '\bperl\b' | wc #     226    1483    9039
15:00 cognominal shapr: http://www.cmpe.boun.edu.t​r/~kosar/other/lwall.html
15:01 cognominal http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Larry_Wall too
15:02 jabbot pugs - 1625 - whoops, didnt mean to commit that yet
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15:34 Limbic_Region autrijus - you about?
15:35 mugwump Right - I'd better get to bed, it's 3:35am in my home time zone
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15:36 Unamuno hey... just an innocent question and I don't mean to start a flamewar... what's the current status of perl6? I read on the site that 6.0.0 is supposed to be done third quarter 2005. does anyone believe that?
15:37 Limbic_Region Unamuno - that statement had a disclaimer - that funding was raised
15:38 Limbic_Region in reality, Pugs has been delivering p6 since the 2005-02-01
15:38 Limbic_Region of course it isn't feature complete and in all likely hood, won't be the final implementation - but it is real right now
15:38 Unamuno hmmm I see
15:39 Unamuno so it's more functional than other implementations at the moment?
15:39 Limbic_Region there are no other implementations ATM
15:39 Limbic_Region PGE and Larry's work on a p5 to p6 translator are probably the only other work being done
15:40 Unamuno hrm. ok. I thought work on parrot was ongoing
15:40 Limbic_Region do keep in mind though that Parrot is the VM that p6 will run on and it is quite advanced
15:40 Limbic_Region Parrot ne Perl6
15:40 mugwump (and pugs can compile to now, with limitations)
15:40 Unamuno well, I know that
15:40 Limbic_Region unlike p5, the VM will be a completely part of the language
15:41 Limbic_Region and unlike p5, the regex engine won't be
15:41 Unamuno but I'm not clear on how much work will be necessary on perl6 itself beyond parrot
15:41 Limbic_Region s/part/apart/
15:41 kungfuftr yay
15:41 Limbic_Region well - there are more subject matter experts around then you can shake a stick at - I am not one of them
15:41 Unamuno and pugs has no connection with parrot, then?
15:41 mugwump pugs can compile to parrot bytecode
15:41 Limbic_Region Unamuno - Parrot is one of the backends that Pugs targets
15:42 Limbic_Region when Parrot isn't available it can still be run through Haskell
15:42 Limbic_Region on that note, me needs food
15:42 Unamuno hmm ok.
15:42 Unamuno well thanks for the info :)
15:42 * mugwump & # really going this time :)
15:42 PerlJam Unamuno: pmichaud is working on PGE which will be used to bootstrap "the" perl6 compiler.
15:43 PerlJam Unamuno: pmichaud is the perl6-compiler pumpking and the one who said 3Q 2005
15:43 PerlJam I believe he can do it.
15:43 PerlJam And if he can't, well, there's always pugs :-)
15:43 Unamuno hmm I see, ok.
15:44 PerlJam (personally I think that there's a better chance of succeeding faster if we get pugs to grok perl6 rules and then use pugs to bootstrap)
15:54 Unamuno you know... I saw a link to ruby on rails the other day and it made me start pondering ruby. but it's been extremely frustrating -- very poor documentation, and basically no utf8 or unicode support whatsoever, with no signs of it arriving anytime soon.
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15:55 PerlJam Unamuno: yep, that's the same impression of ruby I've had since I first tried it a few years ago.
15:55 Khisanth and it's STILL the same impression people are getting?
15:55 PerlJam apparently.
15:55 Khisanth so why are there complaining about the progress of perl6 again? :)
15:56 integral Perl isn't much better, it seems every time SVK is mentioned people say "but it's written in Perl"
15:56 Unamuno and unicode is essential for what I'm doing. no room for quibbling. I need stuff like Unicode::Normalization, as well as the ability to split by characters, and convert chars to codepoint numbers and back. none of that is possible in ruby -- almost boggles the imagination
15:56 PerlJam I'll never forget my first ruby experience.  Every single error was "syntax error".   That's it.  No other useful information.  
15:56 Khisanth people keep pointing to things as being better but in end they aren't really better
15:57 ninereasons autrijus, ping
15:57 Unamuno what mostly frustrates me about perl lately is two things: reference/dereference is rather ugly and can be hard to write cleanly, and "real" classes/structs don't exist. of course I'm not sure _how_ "real" I want them to be, but a bit realer than they are now ;)
15:57 Odin- PerlJam: Didn't they change the 'official' plan to use pugs?
15:58 PerlJam Unamuno: perl6 fixes those, so get on board and start helping!  ;-)
15:58 Unamuno PerlJam: I know, that's why I was asking about it :P
15:58 PerlJam Odin-: Not to my knowledge.
15:58 Odin- Hm. Pugs directed at Parrot, using PGE ... so as not to duplicate (too much) effort?
15:58 Khisanth but do you really have to be stuck with an image of what a "real" struct or class is?
15:59 Odin- PerlJam: Hm. Okay. :/
15:59 PerlJam Odin-: It wouldn't surprise me though.  Once PGE is functional, we could just hook it into pugs and bootstrap that way without coming up with anything fancier.
15:59 Odin- Exactly...
15:59 Unamuno Khisanth: all I want, really, is to be able to separate public from private, and to explicitly declare a sub as belonging to a class (so it knows its $self automatically)
16:00 PerlJam The key thing is being able to parser grammars and "execute" then and be able to modify the grammar on-the-fly
16:00 PerlJam s/parser/parse/
16:00 Khisanth basically something to save the programmer from him/herself :)
16:01 Khisanth and other people they are working with
16:01 Unamuno ruby has very good and interesting support for objects -- but it takes it a bit too far, in my opinion.
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16:01 Unamuno for example, I find it very strange that you can do things like 3.plus(2)
16:01 PerlJam Unamuno: heh ... perl6 will do that too
16:02 Unamuno noooo :P
16:02 PerlJam well, something similar, not that exact thing.
16:02 integral it's more like (3, 2).plus in p6
16:03 PerlJam Unamuno: what problem do you have with that?  It seems like a natural thing to do in a first-class object oriented language.
16:03 Unamuno and python is just.... ummm.... I dunno what. I find the community to be very centrally controlled and the opposite of perl (there's only one way to do it)
16:03 PerlJam (python and ruby and perl are all headed towards being first-class)
16:04 shapr Haskell is a lovely scripting language =)
16:04 autrijus (3,2).infix:<+>;
16:04 Unamuno PerlJam: well, of course. the question is whether such languages really make sense in the end. I'm not totally sure on that yet. in many respects I don't mind "everything is an object", but some attention needs to be given to problems that are solved best other ways, and it's annoying when it becomes impossible to do so.
16:04 Odin- I've said it before, but to me it looks like Perl is really getting to be like a sort of "lisp with syntax"...
16:04 integral shapr: ugg.   so *slow* to compile though ;-)
16:05 autrijus Odin-: Ruby is totally that already
16:05 autrijus integral: hugs :D
16:05 ninereasons autrijus, what have you done that's caused the compile times to drop so radically?
16:05 PerlJam Odin-: Isn't that haskell? ;)
16:05 shapr integral: I use hs-plugins for compilation.
16:05 autrijus ninereasons: I don't know; dropping 6.2 support and taking -O off Parser.hs
16:05 integral oooh, more things to read =)
16:05 Odin- PerlJam: Dunno. Maybe. Don't have time to get into it, I'm already waaaaay behind in my school stuff. :(
16:06 ninereasons I've gone from 188m to 25m on my slowest machine.
16:06 shapr 25minutes!
16:06 autrijus that sounds like a good improvement.
16:06 ninereasons 8m on my fastest machine - optimized!
16:06 PerlJam Hmm.  Maybe I should try compiling pugs on my laptop again.
16:06 theorbtwo autrijus: The more I look at it, the more I'm thinking that DynamicLoader isn't going to work and hs-plugins is the way to go.
16:07 Khisanth Unamuno: just because a language allows you to do something doesn't mean you have to ...
16:07 Unamuno Khisanth: yes, but if a language doesn't allow you to do something, that means you can't :P
16:07 theorbtwo DynamicLoader doesn't use the .hi info, so we have to do all the dependency tracking yourself.
16:07 autrijus theorbtwo: okay. sorry for sending you on the chase
16:07 theorbtwo It's OK; I learned from it.
16:07 autrijus hrm, does NamedLoader not do .hi parsing?
16:07 Khisanth Unamuno: no it just means you have to implement it yourself
16:08 autrijus I vaguely remembered it did.
16:08 autrijus but if it does not, then totally drop it
16:08 theorbtwo The paper talks about it, but I don't see any code for it.
16:08 autrijus and switch to hs-plugins
16:08 autrijus right. I havn't been reading the code.
16:08 PerlJam Hmm.  pugs compiles in 48s on my box.  /me trys to gauge how slow ninereasons boxes are.
16:08 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
16:08 Unamuno Khisanth: it depends what you're talking about. say I want to write a short ruby script where I call a function that's defined later in the document. how do I "implement that myself"?
16:08 Khisanth Unamuno: and you were complaining that Ruby allows you to use 3.plus(2), not that it doesn't allow you to use it :)
16:09 integral memory seems a big factor too, PJ
16:09 autrijus oh. right. I dropped -H200m.
16:09 autrijus so if your machine has <200m of memory
16:09 autrijus then that's going to help a lot.
16:09 PerlJam < 200m free you mean?
16:10 autrijus right. well if you have <200m physical, then that would made pugs impossile to compile
16:10 autrijus or at least a certain adam preble reported such
16:10 integral s/physical/physical + swap/
16:10 PerlJam I think my laptop only has 256
16:10 PerlJam that would explain why it took so long when I tried it before
16:10 autrijus nod.
16:10 autrijus sorry for that. :)
16:10 Unamuno Khisanth: well, no, my point was that the main focus in ruby is on "everything is an object" and so in reality 3+2 is just syntactic sugar. now, that one is so obvious that they made a way to do 3+2 as well as 3.plus(2), but I just get the feeling many other cases have been ignored, where doing things in a more function-oriented way make sense
16:10 autrijus but I did not know -H0 at that time.
16:11 autrijus now it's -H0, and it seems everyone is happy
16:11 ninereasons PerlJam, they're older machines; but they compile in comparable times to yours if I don't say "make optimized"
16:11 integral there's also ST-72's fun of 3 + 2 ==> (3).send('+', 2);
16:12 Unamuno Khisanth: it's not my fault that you interpreted my unclear ramblings incorrectly :P
16:12 autrijus <math:plus><arguments><argument><math:literal>3</m​ath:literal></argument><argument><math:literal>2</​math:literal></argument></arguments></math:plus>
16:12 shapr I didn't get much use from the second cpu - "make -j3  83.93s user 2.81s system 90% cpu 1:35.86 total"
16:12 Unamuno autrijus: ahhh bliss, where would we be without xml ;)
16:12 autrijus shapr: dons suggested ghc -M before
16:12 shapr ah, good idea
16:12 integral <tag name="plus" ns="math"><tag name="arguments"><tag name="argument">...
16:12 PerlJam -M ?
16:13 Khisanth Unamuno: a much better place! isn't that obvious? :p
16:13 shapr dumps dependencies into the makefile, I think
16:13 autrijus shapr: however I'm out of tuits to do that as it's not a showstopper
16:13 cwest has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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16:14 autrijus so, helps welcome, but otherwise won't make to 6.2.0
16:14 shapr yeah, I dig
16:14 shapr I doubt there are a bunch of SMP pugs users.
16:14 shapr Btw, when's 6.2.0 going out?
16:15 Unamuno Khisanth: hehe... I was looking up xml shorthand formats the other day. I guess I don't understand tabs are evil, linebreaks are evil, etc... I suppose it depends on what you're encoding the xml for. but for my purposes it's just way too verbose.
16:15 Unamuno and for many others, as evidenced by the dozens of shorthand proposals
16:15 shapr If 6.2.0 is going out in the next day or two, I think I saw a bunch of simple builtins I could write in a few hours.
16:15 cwest has joined #perl6
16:16 obra casey!
16:16 obra have you ported all of Email:: to p6 yet?
16:16 Khisanth Unamuno: it's ok as long as you aren't writing it :)
16:16 shapr kungfuftr: css is gone on smoke.
16:16 autrijus shapr: go go go  :)
16:17 Odin- has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
16:17 autrijus 6.2.0 is due this sunday.
16:17 autrijus or monday morning.
16:17 autrijus but that's my time, so it's sunday for almost all of you :)
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16:18 shapr Cool, I'll be polite and let others have a crack at simple builtins for a another few hours, after that it's open season.
16:18 PerlJam shapr: which simple builtins are you talking about specificly?
16:18 Odin- has joined #perl6
16:19 hawkaloogie has joined #perl6
16:19 PerlJam Corion was working on sleep yesterday for instance.
16:19 autrijus don't be polite. polite is not a virtue around here. just speak your mind on the channel and feel the anarchy :D
16:19 * obra giggles
16:20 theorbtwo shapr: Mind giving me a hand with hs-plugins?  It doesn't want to build for me.
16:20 Unamuno sorry, this is 6.2.0 of what?
16:20 * cognominal discovers where autrijus got his pugs graphic roadmap
16:20 PerlJam Unamuno: pugs
16:20 theorbtwo pugs.
16:20 Unamuno ahh ok. kinda confusing considering it's not even perl 6 yet :)
16:20 shapr theorbtwo: for the best of hs-plugins you need the latest nightly from ftp
16:20 autrijus cognominal: yup. I added a link at first on http://haskell.org/hawiki/AutrijusTang
16:20 autrijus i.e. http://research.microsoft.com/Users/simonpj/papers​/haskell-retrospective/HaskellRetrospective-2.pdf
16:21 theorbtwo It is perl6.  It's not completed perl6.
16:21 autrijus but that link is a bit long, so I didn't add it to the png itself
16:21 shapr It's a brilliant and complimentary parody of the hairshirt retrospective.
16:21 autrijus Unamuno: yeah, but imagine the confusion if I called it 5.0.0
16:21 Unamuno theorbtwo: right, but not completed versions of a project generally don't have version numbers higher than completed ones. that's all I meant.
16:21 shapr PerlJam: last I looked, several of the missing builtins were simple wrappers around the equivalent Haskell functions.
16:22 autrijus now I can also call it 0.0.1 ... but I was high on caffeine and that looked no fun. sorry for my indulgence :)
16:22 Unamuno hehe
16:22 Unamuno autrijus: you should have successive versions converge on 6.
16:22 autrijus starting from 5.9.0?
16:23 autrijus even more confusion
16:23 Unamuno no, from 6.2.0, now that it's already there
16:23 autrijus say what?
16:23 autrijus 6.2.0, 6.1.9, 6.1.8... ?
16:23 PerlJam Unamuno: that's going quite the wrong way
16:23 Unamuno yeah :)
16:23 autrijus makes no sense :p
16:23 Unamuno well, he's the one who started it by calling it 6.2
16:23 PerlJam Unamuno: pugs is converging on 2*pi
16:24 Unamuno and there's a tradition of obfuscated tendencies in the unix and open source communities, so...
16:24 Unamuno oooh ok.
16:24 Unamuno well, I think my idea shows more creativity ;)
16:24 shapr PerlJam: what about trig.t ?
16:25 theorbtwo Thanks, shapr.
16:25 Khisanth creative to the point of confusion is no good :p
16:26 Unamuno it's only confusion until people catch on to it :P
16:26 Unamuno heh, I can just imagine the flow of questions on the channel here though
16:26 theorbtwo Unamuno: Didn't this start because you thought the existing convention was already too confusing?
16:26 saorge has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:26 Unamuno yes, but right now it's confusing with no apparent logic. my way would at least have a logic to it, although a strange one.
16:27 PerlJam no apparent logic?
16:27 Unamuno um... well is there a reason an implementation of perl6 that's not complete should have a version number of 6.2?
16:28 Khisanth 2*PI is quite logical whereas a decreasing version number will mess up just about every version tracking system in existence if not all of them
16:28 theorbtwo The logic is perfectly obvious, if you remember that it's perl6, and pugs 6.2.
16:28 PerlJam Unamuno: you mean 6.28318530717959
16:28 theorbtwo And in any case, 6.2 == 6 (when you remember significant digits).
16:29 Unamuno well 2*pi is perfectly easy to calculate, but I don't see what pi has to do with perl, or why it's being multiplied by two.
16:29 Unamuno whereas with tex, converging on pi fits a lot better.
16:29 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:30 Unamuno theorbtwo: and yes, I realize that. there essentially is no "real" perl6 outside of a description, right?
16:30 Unamuno I guess the problem is that there's basic only ever been one reference perl implementation before.
16:30 Unamuno s/basic//
16:30 theorbtwo See http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A01.html, under RFC 141.
16:31 theorbtwo (See also RFC 141 itself.)
16:33 mac93 has joined #perl6
16:33 kungfuftr shapr: fixed! need to really sort that out
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16:34 metaperl has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
16:34 autrijus Unamuno: basically I've been attracted to P6RFC 141 ever since it was written
16:35 autrijus and there's also this "need to mark pugs as not the official perl 6 compiler" thing.
16:35 autrijus when I started versioning pugs, that is
16:36 Unamuno autrijus: incidentally, why did you choose haskell?
16:36 autrijus Unamuno: pugscode.org, "Overview"
16:36 autrijus grep for "Haskell"
16:36 Unamuno ah ok
16:37 PerlJam Unamuno: obviously it was the right choice.  Look how much work has been accomplished in such a short time  :-)
16:38 mj my new toy, see
16:38 mj http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/pugs/​tut-root/tut-output/hello-world.p6.html
16:38 mj and next>> links
16:39 autrijus oh wow. wow.
16:39 autrijus is this what I think it is?
16:40 autrijus a pugs-powered html tutorial generator?
16:40 PerlJam it's magic!
16:40 autrijus majic!
16:41 Unamuno PerlJam: well, it does seem to be quite a lot for a short time :)
16:41 Unamuno autrijus: it doesn't say on that page when exactly you started... just a couple months ago?
16:41 Odin-LAP has joined #perl6
16:41 autrijus Unamuno: 1st Feb, 2005
16:41 PerlJam Unamuno: Feb 1
16:42 Unamuno I'm curious to try it out now. time to compile ghc... sigh ;)
16:43 autrijus there should be binary installers for your platform...
16:43 PerlJam Unamuno: make sure you have ghc 6.4
16:43 Unamuno PerlJam: I know... I'm on OS X and fink has binaries for 6.2, which I already had for something else. but the easiest way for me to install 6.4 is through darwinports which compiles everything
16:43 gaal autrijus, where can i find the slides to your yapc talk? they seem to have gone off the main site
16:44 gaal the main yapc::taipei site that is
16:44 mj thanks, but now i need to do real work :-(
16:44 autrijus gaal: http://wagner.elixus.org/~autrijus/p6tu/
16:44 gaal thanks!
16:44 autrijus Unamuno: the easiest way is thru .dmg :D
16:44 Unamuno I might be able to find binaries for 6.4 but it doesn't seem work it, I prefer proper package management... I'm not in a hurry anyway :)
16:44 Unamuno s/work/worth/
16:45 autrijus or rather, for 10.3, http://haskell.org/ghc/dist​/6.4/MacOSX/GHC-6.4.pkg.zip
16:45 Unamuno autrijus: where does it install?
16:45 autrijus /usr/local/bin/ghc
16:45 autrijus I think
16:45 Unamuno yeah, that's what I don't like about pkgs. they ask for your password and don't tell you what they're doing.
16:45 autrijus uh. they are just tarballs.
16:45 autrijus you can cd into them and use tar to inspect its content.
16:46 Unamuno errr... not usually.
16:46 mj html tutorial generator, but writteln in perl5 with system( 'pugs.exe', ...)
16:46 autrijus *shrug* that's what I do anyway :)
16:46 PerlJam mj:you should write it in perl6
16:46 autrijus mj: I wonder if you can port it to pugs
16:47 Unamuno autrijus: hmm well I'll try that in the future, but I haven't been able to the couple times I tried
16:47 Unamuno incidentally, I find it a positive trend that people on freenode don't automatically deride people who use OS X ;)
16:49 mj maybe, but not today perhaps, source code http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj​/attach/pugs/tut-root/tut/
16:49 autrijus Unamuno: SubEthaEdit powers a large chunk of pugs development.
16:49 PerlJam Unamuno: yep.  I've never been a Mac fan, but when a coworker gave me and old G3 with OSX on it, I've never been happier.
16:49 PerlJam s/and/an/
16:50 PerlJam I don't think that would have happened prior to OSX though
16:50 PerlJam anyway ... back to work
16:51 Unamuno autrijus: really? hmm that surprises me somehow. I used SubEthaEdit for a while but my work recently bought BBEdit, which is still the best, imo.
16:51 autrijus Unamuno: BBEdit doesn't get you teamwork
16:51 Unamuno PerlJam: I've always been a mac user. long time on unix too though and ran linux for a while until OS X made it mostly not so necessary. but I have never, ever used windows regularly :)
16:52 Unamuno although I've had to use it enough that I know how to bend it into shape
16:53 autrijus unless of course BBEdit somehow gained teamwork capability I did not notice
16:54 Unamuno autrijus: nope. I don't need that feature personally, though. not at the moment anyway.
16:54 autrijus ah. have you tried it at all? it's highly addictive.
16:54 Unamuno autrijus: oooh, I misread your first comment -- I thought you said SubEthaEdit *funds* pugs development.
16:54 autrijus uh, no. "fuels" maybe
16:55 autrijus BBEdit is good to us, too -- they agreed to add a Perl6 syntax mode on next release
16:55 Unamuno does it recognize haskell?
16:55 autrijus SEE? I don't know, prolly not by default
16:55 autrijus but I think setting the syntax to "SQL" gets you a good haskell mode.
16:55 autrijus ;)
16:55 Unamuno hehe. how does the collaborative stuff work anyway? I suppose it works over the net as well as local networks... and you see what people are doing in real time I guess?
16:57 computer is now known as errr
16:59 Unamuno BBEdit has a surprisingly good perl syntax mode. very good at catching missed quotes for example and it even recognizes here documents.
17:02 Limbic_Region chip about?
17:02 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445661 # Is Perl6 going to release memory back to the OS
17:03 chip *bamf*
17:03 autrijus Unamuno: right, it's basically multiplayer notepad
17:03 * Unamuno chips about
17:03 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445785 # What compilers are targetting Parrot
17:03 autrijus L_R, our resident perlmonk channeler
17:04 Limbic_Region well - use.perl journals as well, but you seem to read them before I get a chance to tell you about them autrijus
17:04 autrijus yup.
17:04 autrijus the volume is... more managable than perlmonks
17:04 Limbic_Region hmm - /me thinks by chip's *bamf* reply, he really isn't here and that is an automated response
17:05 autrijus do not be fooled!
17:05 * autrijus tries the summoning again
17:05 autrijus chip about?
17:05 Limbic_Region seen chip
17:05 jabbot Limbic_Region: chip was seen on Fri Apr  8 01:03:06 2005
17:05 autrijus see? not an automated response
17:06 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:06 Limbic_Region well, I /msg'd him the links anyway
17:07 Limbic_Region autrijus - are you familiar with Dan's "What the heck is X" series from his blog?
17:07 rjbs has joined #perl6
17:08 Limbic_Region I was thinking that "What the heck is bootstrapping and what does it have to do with Perl6" would be a good thing to give an explanation of
17:08 Unamuno autrijus: the ghc binary is not a tarball, it's a paxball ;)
17:09 Khisanth hmm
17:10 Khisanth Limbic_Region: maybe the memory releasing will be the same as perl5?
17:10 Khisanth oh wait that still depends on the OS
17:10 Limbic_Region Khisanth - on the memory releasing issue - it is a complicated answer
17:10 Limbic_Region If an OS doesn't support, the language can't do much about that
17:11 Limbic_Region on the platforms where it is supported, the language is going to have to work to some extend to make the OS happy about releasing the memory back
17:11 Limbic_Region in p5 it almost never makes sense to do that because it doesn't use contiguous blocks (AFAIK)
17:12 Limbic_Region in p6/parrot, it may be more realistic, but in p5 we often make optimizations by trading resources
17:12 Limbic_Region if I asked for memory once - I will likely ask for it again, so let's keep it around
17:13 * Limbic_Region is by far not a Subject Matter Expert though - which is why I pointed it out to chip
17:13 Limbic_Region s/extend/extent/
17:13 Limbic_Region bootstrapping is a much more straightforward matter
17:14 autrijus Limbic_Region: yes, quite
17:14 autrijus wrt dan
17:14 autrijus Limbic_Region: uhm, hm, yeah, write one?
17:14 autrijus (or scheme chip into writing one)
17:14 Limbic_Region well, I was thinking about that style, but have a section at www.pugscode.org
17:14 Khisanth well hopefully perl6 will have slightly less overhead :)
17:14 Khisanth when storing things
17:15 Limbic_Region I would be willing to framework some - but not being very smart, someone else would have to fill in details
17:15 autrijus sure. PA01 has some initial details
17:15 Limbic_Region well - I see it as being a more in depth FAQ
17:15 Limbic_Region but I have a lot of grand ideas sitting back not actually doing anything
17:16 Limbic_Region I will come up with an outline for bootstrapping with some basic content I know is accurate and let you decide if it is worth it
17:16 Limbic_Region s/you/the channel/
17:16 autrijus cool!
17:16 autrijus Limbic_Region++ # in advance
17:17 Limbic_Region er um, now the format - POD would be easiest for me
17:17 autrijus go ahead and use POD.
17:17 autrijus if POD<=>Kwid converter is not there when you're done, it's not your fault :)
17:18 autrijus there is a Kwid=>Html converter though, and a Html=>Pod one
17:18 autrijus but that's lossy as hell.
17:19 theorbtwo All converters loose.  Some just loose less.
17:19 autrijus (Spork::Formatter::Kwid and Pod::HTML2Pod respectively)
17:19 Juerd How lossy is hell?
17:19 autrijus total entropy, man
17:20 theorbtwo But total entropy increases over time!
17:21 autrijus until it reaches hell
17:21 autrijus then it freezes over and starts anew
17:21 stevan autrijus: I dont wanna be a pain, but any idea when multidims will land?
17:21 Khisanth so hell is not hell until the end of hell? :)
17:22 autrijus stevan: you are not a pain. before 6.2.0. I started doing designs but was distracted by business stuff
17:22 autrijus stevan: so most likely tomorrow morning
17:22 stevan autrijus: sounds good to me (your morning is usually my late evening, so thats perfect)
17:22 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:22 autrijus Khisanth: right, see Asimov, "The Last Question"
17:23 autrijus also # http://interconnected.org/no​tes/2003/05/last-query.html
17:24 autrijus stevan: the prerequisite -- IntMap change -- has landed, but I need to tweak Eval.hs some more
17:25 kungfuftr rightio... time to overhaul the testsuite stuff
17:25 stevan kungfuftr: why?
17:25 elmex has joined #perl6
17:25 kungfuftr stevan: modularise it and make it a little more generic
17:26 kungfuftr ie: not have 5 different scripts run across it
17:26 stevan kungfuftr++
17:26 stevan it would be a very nice thing to have for all my (soon to be antiquated) perl5 projects
17:28 kungfuftr i should have a peek at yacsmoke again too
17:29 Limbic_Region autrijus - isn't there a pugs wiki?
17:29 Limbic_Region maybe it would make more sense to add a "What the heck is" section there?
17:29 stevan Limbic_Region: http://pugs.kwiki.org/
17:29 Limbic_Region thanks stevan
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17:30 gaal has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
17:31 stevan Limbic_Region: always a pleasure :)
17:32 kungfuftr autrijus: btw, had a chat with merlyn... as far as he's aware, there's nothing to stop someone doing a "Learning Perl" companion guide thing for Perl 6
17:32 stevan kungfuftr: did you see the idea for Perl6 Cookbook?
17:32 autrijus pleac! pleac!
17:33 autrijus kungfuftr: I think pleac will rock.
17:33 chip Professor Backwards drowned after yelling "PLEH!  PLEH!"
17:33 autrijus and a certain publisher may even consider publishing it.
17:33 * stevan thought autrijus was chooking on his Diet Coke there for a second
17:33 autrijus # http://pleac.sourceforge.net/pleac_perl.html
17:33 autrijus eh. ;)
17:34 autrijus I'm officially off Coke for now, though.
17:34 kungfuftr stevan: yup... learning perl's quite a nice step though... especially for the very basics that have changed
17:34 autrijus tea for me on usual days.
17:34 Limbic_Region after re-reading what has been written about bootstrapping, I don't see it as a good candidate for the first "what the heck is" - I will just point people there and wait to see what the next thing is most initiates are puzzled about
17:34 autrijus Limbic_Region: that's cool too.
17:35 * stevan finds the $work server is still unresponsive, so back to Pugs hacking it is :)
17:35 ninereasons how convenient for us, stevan
17:35 stevan kungfuftr: pleac may be a better place to start though. It will help crystalize the differences
17:35 * kungfuftr can't believe that's no good generic smoke packages on CPAN
17:36 stevan ninereasons: :)
17:36 kungfuftr stevan: true... but a learning perl companion guide thing would be so sweet to have when pugs/perl6 gets production ready
17:36 Unamuno smoke?
17:37 rgs has joined #perl6
17:37 autrijus kungfuftr: is learning perl's code availalbe on the web?
17:38 autrijus hi rgs!
17:38 rgs hi autrijus
17:38 stevan kungfuftr: either way is good :)
17:38 ninereasons mj, your sample is nice to show to perl5 people, at http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/pug​s/tut-root/tut/tut-src/simpleiter.p6
17:38 ninereasons things like that make perl5 people say "yay"
17:39 * kungfuftr checks
17:39 Juerd string.say still looks weird.
17:39 autrijus for (%mates.kv) -> $girl, $guy {
17:39 autrijus this can lose the parens
17:39 chip are the parens required in the simpleiter example?
17:39 chip jinx
17:39 autrijus kinx
17:39 autrijus linx too.
17:40 kungfuftr autrijus: http://examples.oreilly.com/lperl3/
17:41 autrijus that reminds me. anyone finds the trailing comma thing irritating enough?
17:41 autrijus i.e. considered 6.2.0 blocker?
17:41 autrijus (1,2,3,) # currently illegal in pugs
17:41 kungfuftr autrijus: http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/orei​lly/ask_tim/2001/codepolicy.html
17:42 ninereasons more irritating, is that my ($s,@a) = <1 2 3> doesn't work
17:42 metaperl_ has joined #perl6
17:42 kungfuftr ninereasons: ($s,*@a) = <1 2 3>; ?
17:43 * chip flattens kungfuftr
17:43 kungfuftr mwuahaha
17:43 autrijus no, = should flat by default.
17:43 autrijus i.e. that's a bug.
17:43 autrijus although I was seriously confused when I first coded it.
17:43 autrijus so needs a rewrite :)
17:43 metaperl_ does that term "flatten" make sense to everyone but me?
17:44 autrijus (of 10 lines of code -- line 333 of Eval)
17:44 kungfuftr autrijus: a trailing comma might denote an undef value perhaps... but probably better to be explicit about it than not
17:44 Juerd simpleiter.p6 is not homosexual compatible.
17:44 autrijus kungfuftr: the trailing comma is ignored in p5
17:44 autrijus and same in p6
17:44 kungfuftr k
17:44 autrijus larry also said that trailing semicolon is ignored too
17:44 metaperl_ were those angle brackets valid syntax?
17:44 chip <> is qw()   <<>> is qqw()  [or would be]
17:45 autrijus angle brackets are the new qw<>
17:45 autrijus they are also the new {''}
17:45 Juerd autrijus: {qw//}, actually.
17:45 autrijus well, yeah, sure
17:45 chip Hm.  I wonder what $a{qw/1/} does
17:46 chip it ... works.  hm
17:46 elmex_ has joined #perl6
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17:46 Juerd chip: That's the same as $a{1}
17:46 chip so it is.  I expected qw{} to react poorly to scalar context.
17:46 Juerd chip: Which is %$a{1}
17:46 Juerd chip: It's not scalar context afaik.
17:46 metaperl_ chip: perldoc perlop discusses qw and qq but now qqw .... whatis qqw?
17:47 Khisanth like qw but with interpolation?
17:47 Juerd metaperl_: q : qq :: qw : qqw
17:47 Juerd metaperl_: Apply logic.
17:47 chip Oh wow.  Perl 5:
17:47 chip perl -MData::Dumper -le '$a{qw/1 2/} = 3; print Dumper(\%a)'
17:47 chip $VAR1 = {
17:47 chip          '12' => 3
17:47 chip        };
17:47 * Juerd hadn't expected that
17:47 ninereasons hm.  surprising
17:48 chip Even better
17:48 rjbs chip: You made that up!!
17:48 chip perl -MData::Dumper -le '$a{qw/1 2/} = 3; print Dumper(\%a)' | cat -v
17:48 chip $VAR1 = {
17:48 chip          '1^\2' => 3
17:48 chip        };
17:48 chip It's doing the fake multidimensional thing
17:48 Juerd chip: Ahh, $;
17:48 rjbs ahhh
17:48 * Juerd always forgets about that until he needs it
17:48 * chip forsees a feature of ObfuPerl
17:48 Juerd Well, not need, but want.
17:48 * rjbs never wants it.
17:48 Juerd rjbs: When I want something to be keyed by multiple things that only in relation to eachother make sense.
17:49 chip anyway, I'm noodling on the wrong channel.  AWAY!
17:49 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:49 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
17:49 Juerd rjbs: It's a shame to waste lots of hashes on that: $foo{$bar}{$baz}{$quux}, when %{ $foo{$bar} } makes no sense
17:50 Juerd Then $foo{$bar, $baz, $quux} or $foo{"$bar/$baz/$quux"} (I use the latter more often because I think it's clearer) fixes that.
17:50 kungfuftr bah, i so need a unix box at home
17:50 Juerd kungfuftr: Then get one.
17:51 kungfuftr Juerd: no as easy as it seem unfortunately
17:51 Juerd Is too.
17:51 jiing__ has joined #perl6
17:51 Juerd kungfuftr: What box are you using now?
17:51 Juerd (at home)
17:53 crysflame win 3
17:53 crysflame wow
17:53 crysflame sorry
17:53 crysflame if an op sets mode +c i believe that strips colors and bold from the channel
17:54 shapr yes
17:54 crysflame wow, 98 of us
17:54 kungfuftr Juerd: win xp box... development done on a freebsd remote box
17:55 Juerd kungfuftr: Then run cooperative linux.
17:55 kungfuftr linux-- # sorry
17:55 CapoeiraB has joined #perl6
17:55 Juerd zealot.
17:56 * kungfuftr would move to OSX if he had the money
17:57 rjbs kungfuftr: What's your roadblock to having a unix box at home?
17:57 Juerd rjbs: hating linux, apparently.
17:57 rjbs Clearly he could just run freebsd at home, too.
17:58 rjbs So presumably the problem is with hardware acquisition.
17:58 Juerd Not at the same time as Windows XP
17:58 Juerd On the same box
17:58 Juerd (If you can afford vmware, you can also afford a separate box, as the latter is cheaper even.)
17:58 kungfuftr rjbs: wireless only and my wireless card is not bsd compatible... however forgot about NDIS, so might do a 5.3 install
17:58 shapr yay, pugs on lwn.net
17:59 shapr http://lwn.net/Articles/130401/
18:00 ninereasons cook seems to be the designated pugs reporter
18:00 shapr ?
18:01 ninereasons hm. I guess I don't know what I'm reading there: looking at Search results
18:01 ninereasons on lwn.net
18:01 shapr who's cook?
18:02 ninereasons ([Development] Posted Apr 5, 2005 21:40 UTC (Tue) by cook)
18:03 ninereasons I don't know - it doesn't show up on the post.  but "by cook" is in the search result
18:03 shapr interesting
18:05 autrijus mm 5 people hacked on hangman.p6 aleready
18:05 autrijus making it the most popular example
18:06 ninereasons or, considering that I'm one of those five, making it the most hacked up sample.
18:07 ninereasons Line 333 ff of Eval.hs is still gibberish to me.  I need to read more haskell books.
18:10 castaway .. but vmware can be any number of machines, so offsetting its price against one is not fair ;)
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18:14 shapr ninereasons: you want an explanation?
18:15 ninereasons yes.  I'd like to understand why it doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
18:15 shapr This? "[lhsExp@(Syn "," lhs), exp] -> do"
18:15 ninereasons yes, and following
18:15 shapr You understand case?
18:16 autrijus line 336 is the entire bug, actually, but I'm journaling, so shapr++ :)
18:16 shapr !
18:16 ninereasons assume I know nothing, and you'll be very close to the truth.
18:16 shapr fair enough
18:16 castaway (wtf is that, haskellish?)
18:16 autrijus castaway: yes, src/Eval.hs line 332/333
18:17 alinbsp has joined #perl6
18:17 autrijus hey alin :)
18:17 * castaway still hasnt persuaded gentoo to install ghc 6.4
18:17 shapr let's say you have some value, you can switch on the value with case. case somestring of "foo" -> putStrLn "bar" ; "bar" -> putStrLn "baz"
18:17 shapr that sort of thing.
18:17 ninereasons ok
18:17 alinbsp good evening
18:18 ninereasons case, switch, that kind of thing
18:18 autrijus actually line 335 is a lie. "slurpy" should read "non-slurpy" ;)
18:19 Odin-LAP has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
18:19 autrijus but it really should be slurpy.
18:19 shapr the first case happens if you get a two item list where the first item uses a Syn constructor with a string "," as its first value
18:19 Khisanth autrijus: that is very confusing
18:19 shapr it also assigns the whole value inside that Syn constructor to the name lhsExp
18:19 autrijus Khisanth: indeed. I was very confused when I coded it up.
18:20 shapr just from the names, I'd guess lhsExp means left hand side of the expression
18:20 shapr and exp probably means expression
18:20 autrijus my ($a, @b) = (1,2,3);
18:20 castaway as long as it works, autrijus
18:20 autrijus here $a and @b are the lhs
18:20 autrijus and lhsExp is ($a, @b)
18:20 autrijus exp is (1,2,3)
18:20 ninereasons omg, i think I actually understand
18:21 shapr mapM_ is just like map with the addition that it's monadic, (mapM) and it doesn't care about the result (the trailing underscore)
18:21 autrijus ...and you see a GHCism, parallel comprehension
18:21 shapr so evalExp gets applied to each part of the list that is its argument
18:22 ninereasons one item at a time
18:22 shapr that funny looking list critter is a list comprehension
18:22 lambdabot has joined #perl6
18:22 shapr @plugs [(x,y) | x <- [1,2,3] , y <- [4,5,6] ]
18:23 shapr that's your basic list comp
18:23 ninereasons nice trick
18:23 autrijus @plugs [(x,y) | x <- [1,2,3] | y <- [4,5,6] ]
18:23 autrijus argh.
18:23 * shapr grins
18:23 autrijus why can't lambdabot enable -fg-exts?
18:23 autrijus think of the children! :)
18:23 wilx :)
18:23 shapr because a few people found  ways to execute shell commands via -fg-exts
18:23 autrijus oh wow. wow.
18:23 autrijus ok. good enough
18:24 shapr yeah, I hope no one on #haskell ever turns black hat
18:24 shapr > [(x,y) | x <- [1,2,3] | y <- [4,5,6] ]
18:24 shapr [(1,4),(2,5),(3,6)]
18:24 shapr since I have both irc and ghci in emacs, I can just cut'n'paste
18:25 autrijus nice trick
18:25 shapr I'd use zip for this normally
18:25 shapr @plugs zip [1,2,3] [4,5,6]
18:25 * shapr blinks
18:26 autrijus sure, but I find parallel comprehension easier on my brain :)
18:26 shapr hey if it works for you :-)
18:26 ninereasons autrijus has an interesting brain
18:26 autrijus basically I can't remember zip2, zip3, zip4
18:27 shapr Also, standard zip only goes up to zip3 I think
18:27 shapr oh, there's zip4?
18:27 autrijus since in my mind it's the same thing
18:27 shapr anyway, it's limited.
18:27 shapr I doubt parallel list comps are limited.
18:27 autrijus they are not
18:27 autrijus but we digress.
18:28 autrijus anyway, that parallel comprehension takes lhs, zips it with the evaluated list of rhs, cutting the longer one to fit the shorter one
18:28 shapr so, for each piece on the left side and each piece on the right side, they get combined like Syn "=" [l, Val v]
18:28 autrijus ...nice, we actually complement each other
18:29 shapr bea says hi to autrijus
18:29 * autrijus leaves the rest to shapr and goes on journaling
18:29 shapr (my significant other)
18:29 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
18:29 Odin- has joined #perl6
18:29 shapr ninereasons: was that everything?
18:30 ninereasons I followed your explanation,
18:30 autrijus bea: hi!
18:30 ninereasons I'm digesting.
18:30 shapr ninereasons: is the rest of that case understandable?
18:30 autrijus ninereasons: so, line 337 evals the lvalue again
18:30 autrijus and return it
18:30 autrijus that is so that
18:30 autrijus $a = $b = 3
18:30 autrijus works.
18:31 * shapr runs off to take a post-unicycling shower.
18:31 ninereasons ok. yes
18:31 autrijus the "enterLValue" means that the retval is good as lval
18:31 autrijus (($a = 3) = 4) works
18:35 wilx Hmm, P.K.Dick? I almost bought the book today. But then I decided for something easier to read :)
18:35 ninereasons (($a = 3) = 4) works ?
18:35 autrijus I just checked and it doesn't ;)
18:35 * wilx just READTHEM.
18:35 autrijus something else is blocking it.
18:36 autrijus file a bug... I mean test?
18:37 ninereasons I would but I don't see why it should work
18:37 autrijus well, it works in perl5
18:37 autrijus that's a reason good enough.
18:37 ninereasons ok :)
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18:39 ninereasons so it should evaluate to "4" ?
18:39 autrijus yes.
18:43 ninereasons is there some wonderful use for that syntax, autrijus ?
18:44 autrijus chomp($_ = <STDIN>);
18:44 autrijus ok, not wonderful (actually terrible)
18:44 autrijus but common.
18:44 ninereasons ok.  i see that.
18:47 autrijus yay I get to use the word "scintillating" too!
18:47 autrijus I've always wanted to use that after I see it repeatedly on perlmonks.
18:48 Unamuno has left "Leaving"
18:52 chip ($a = 1) =~ s/1/2/
18:54 autrijus chip: I read somewhere that you thought
18:54 autrijus for my $item (@array) { ... }
18:54 autrijus is a regrettable hack of yours
18:54 autrijus is that true? do you consider
18:54 autrijus for @array -> $item { ... }
18:54 autrijus to be significantly better?
18:54 chip autrijus: I regret the double-keyword effect; it moves the variable even farther from the left.
18:55 ninereasons weird, chip.  why doesn't strict complain?
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18:55 autrijus ninereasons: because p5 is evil and must die.
18:55 autrijus (sorry. $a and $b special casing being one of my pet peeves)
18:55 chip autrijus: The p6 version is better in context; in p6, what follows the for is always the list.  if you want the variable, you hunt for the { and look to the left.
18:56 rootmj has left
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18:56 chip autrijus: That said, I don't regret doing it; given p5 as the base, it was probably the best bad hack available.
18:56 autrijus ninereasons: $c will raise exception
18:56 ninereasons weirder yet.
18:56 ninereasons then, why should similar behavior be reproduced in perl6, autrijus
18:57 autrijus ninereasons: $a special casing? definitely not!
18:57 autrijus ($a = Foo.new).process
18:57 Limbic_Region ninereasons - you do realize what special casing autrijus is referring to right?
18:57 autrijus is a valid syntax though.
18:57 Limbic_Region s/realize/know/
18:58 ninereasons only from the example, Limbic_Region
18:58 Limbic_Region $a and $b get special treatment because of sort blocks in p5
18:58 Limbic_Region they pass strictness tests without being declared as a result
18:58 Limbic_Region and a few other checks as well
18:58 autrijus which leads to subtly buggy code.
18:58 ninereasons I see.  thank you for the context;  Limbic_Region
18:58 chip with $a and $b, Larry inched toward $^a $^b, which I like a lot more
18:59 autrijus verily.
19:00 slv has left
19:02 kungfuftr $^<FOO> denotes a placeholder variable, right?
19:02 theorbtwo s/which leads/which sometimes leads/
19:02 autrijus kungfuftr: right. or implicit var.
19:02 theorbtwo It's more like an undeclared argument.
19:02 autrijus aye. true.
19:03 kungfuftr autrijus: any idea if perl6 is going to have a way programmable way of identifying a specific object?
19:03 autrijus kungfuftr: elaborate?
19:03 kungfuftr autrijus: say for example for easy use with persistence
19:04 autrijus you have =:=
19:04 autrijus but I don't know what exactly are you looking for
19:04 kungfuftr autrijus: yar, was thinking more like primary key melarky
19:04 autrijus StableName? UUID?
19:05 autrijus it's all negotiatable (on p6l) :)
19:05 kungfuftr yar, that sort of thing
19:05 autrijus if you talk to mugwump, it's likely that he will design it in
19:05 kungfuftr mugwump: oi ye bastard!
19:05 autrijus since his design is the .hs pugs actually runs... :)
19:05 * shapr sneaks half of prolog into pugs
19:06 autrijus ooh I want the other half too
19:06 * shapr laughs
19:06 shapr I'm just being a smartass, as usual.
19:06 theorbtwo IIRC, there was supposed to be a .ident method.
19:06 autrijus interesting. reference?
19:06 theorbtwo Now you're asking hard questions.
19:06 autrijus guess that's my job :)
19:07 autrijus oh btw, see "First Set" http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc​/trunk/plans/design_docs.pod
19:07 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - do you remember the context at least surrounding the .ident method?
19:07 autrijus also see "Candiates for delegation" and that means You!
19:08 Limbic_Region I might be able to help recall the reference if you have more context - it is fuzzily in my mind as well ATM
19:09 theorbtwo I think it was the conversation that the =:= operator came from.
19:09 Limbic_Region hmmm - nope, not ringing a bell
19:09 Limbic_Region I was thinking it had more to do with a mutiple inheritence discussion
19:10 theorbtwo Conversations on p6l are always so twisted -- it may have been both.
19:10 slv has joined #perl6
19:10 Limbic_Region well, I tend not to follow p6.l so it is likely that I heard a different conversation concerning the same method
19:12 kungfuftr autrijus: it was just me thinking about the fact that a fully typed perl6 class could be automagically serialised to postgresql
19:13 autrijus mugwump of the Tangram clan will likely agree with you.
19:15 kungfuftr autrijus: yar, sam and i used to work together... lots of tangram voodoo
19:15 autrijus mmm voodoo
19:16 autrijus what do you think of the opposite clan, the Prevaylor voodoo?
19:16 kungfuftr prevaylor?
19:16 autrijus http://www.prevaylor.org
19:16 kungfuftr seems dead
19:17 autrijus wrong link
19:17 autrijus http://www.prevayler.org/wiki.jsp
19:18 kungfuftr autrijus: ah yes, it's nice, but not always practical, especially in production
19:19 kungfuftr plus, you don't have as much control in general of things like transactions, etc.
19:19 autrijus yeah.
19:19 elmex has joined #perl6
19:20 kungfuftr and also, SQL can be a lot more powerful in certain areas
19:21 autrijus right. and with sqlite the speed is acceptable
19:21 autrijus to me at least.
19:21 autrijus I've still yet to find a practical use case for prevayler.
19:22 kungfuftr autrijus: cost for resiliant hardware would be my initial concern
19:23 kungfuftr tangram, cdbi, etc. are all fine enough for most uses
19:24 autrijus aye.
19:24 autrijus ok, journal up. need to be sleeping :)
19:24 autrijus see you tomorrow *wave* &
19:24 kungfuftr nn!
19:24 ninereasons thanks and bye
19:26 autrijus YAPC::NA Hackathon Update: Breaking news: Larry Wall and Luke Palmer are also coming. Wow.
19:26 autrijus zzz &
19:28 kungfuftr oh... sweet
19:29 Limbic_Region autrijus   for sharing the great news, autrijus-- for falling asleep without fielding questions
19:29 chip Larry?  Neato!
19:29 metaperl has joined #perl6
19:29 chip Is that cottage going to hold everyone?
19:29 * Limbic_Region hopes the journal has more details
19:29 Limbic_Region chip - you are going to right?
19:29 chip 0.9 probability.  I sure want to!
19:30 chip 0.98 probability of attending YAPC proper
19:30 Limbic_Region my wife can't yet leave the country, so this year will be out :-(
19:32 * kungfuftr only gets to go to YAPC::EU this year
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19:32 Limbic_Region autrijus - if you see this when reviewing the logs, read http://use.perl.org/~milardj/journal/24057 and don't be modest about the praise being heaped on
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19:36 * kungfuftr goes off to install freebsd
19:38 stevan cool, larry and Luke at the hackathon
19:39 rgs woot
19:39 stevan it will certainly make it interesting :)
19:39 * stevan really needs to figure out his travel plans so he can go
19:39 rgs which hackathon ? yapc::na ?
19:39 stevan rgs: yup
19:40 stevan lemme find the mail
19:40 stevan rgs: here is one http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/514
19:40 rgs ok
19:40 stevan and the original invite
19:40 stevan http://www.nntp.perl.org/gr​oup/perl.perl6.compiler/487
19:41 stevan oh no - I just saw where autrijus used "scintillating"
19:42 theorbtwo I certianly have to go now.
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19:42 stevan theorbtwo: we are expecting you for sure
19:42 theorbtwo Perhaps I'll be able to talk some sense into Larry re =:= and trying to paper over the difference between references and values.
19:43 rgs I can't go to yapc::na
19:43 stevan rgs: why not?
19:43 rgs too far. too expensive. not the time.
19:43 stevan rgs: where are you?
19:43 rgs paris, france
19:44 stevan ahh, yes,...
19:44 stevan although if you can make it to germany maybe you can sneak into theorbtwo's carry on bag
19:44 Qiang-work hm, compare to autrijus, it isnt that far tho :)
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19:49 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445851 # Announcement of the YAPC::NA
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19:54 * theorbtwo wonders if he's actually RSVP'd to this thing.
19:57 Limbic_Region the hackathon or YAPC::NA?
19:57 Limbic_Region Jean can't leave the country yet, so I won't be going to either :-(
19:58 theorbtwo The hackathon.
19:59 theorbtwo I'm not RSVP'd to YAPC::NA, but AFAIK, they haven't started taking money yet.
20:00 * Limbic_Region is a tad bit jealous
20:00 Limbic_Region of the hackathon - not so much the conference
20:00 Limbic_Region though, it will be nice to have a house with spare room(s) so when you and Jess are visiting PA you can stay with Jean and I for a day or so
20:01 theorbtwo I think we're going to be with my parents and possibly sister -- so no, but thanks for asking...
20:01 theorbtwo And now that I realize you live around the DC area, I have to figure out more people to visit.
20:02 Limbic_Region maybe you misparsed
20:02 Limbic_Region I wasn't saying this specific time, but in general
20:03 Limbic_Region and I only indicated a day or so because I know how hard it is to compress visiting friends when family wants to monopolize your time (I haven't lived in Maine for a decade)
20:04 Limbic_Region chip   for mandating scheduled releases of Parrot
20:04 * theorbtwo grins.
20:04 * Limbic_Region had whined about that for some time to Dan and Leo WRT community involvement/excitement
20:04 theorbtwo At some point, I'll figure this out.
20:05 Limbic_Region hmmm - chip plus plus (/me really hates this client)
20:05 theorbtwo Possibly after my father dies and my mother moves, so they all live closer together.
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20:06 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - the secret is to take longer vacations
20:07 Limbic_Region I actually sent Jean up to Maine to visit my relatives for a couple of weeks without me just so she could get some quality time visiting
20:07 Limbic_Region fly before Jess and return after her
20:08 theorbtwo It's an idea.
20:08 theorbtwo But I'm not sure I want to be sepperated from her for that long.
20:09 Limbic_Region ahh - how sweet
20:10 Limbic_Region absence makes the heart grow fonder - Jean ended up coming home early (home sick) - but don't tell her I said that - being homesick at 25 was a bit embarrasing for her
20:10 castaway :)
20:11 theorbtwo OTOH, her family is having some sort of shindig for her mother's birthday and I'm not invited for the week before.
20:11 kungfuftr yay! freebsd installed and wireless card working smoothly even without native drivers
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20:41 * ninereasons wonders how long he'll put off upgrading from freebsd 4.11, to 5.x
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20:43 slv has left
20:45 theorbtwo G'night, #p6ers.
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20:53 stevan gnite orb
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21:11 chip debianizing Devel::ebug looks pretty easy, except for the FIVE NEW DEPENDENCIES
21:11 chip ww
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21:15 ninereasons is String-Koremutake a toy, or is it useful (an ebug dependency)
21:16 kungfuftr ninereasons: useful enough
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21:16 ninereasons for mangling numbers?
21:18 ninereasons i imagine a group of number nerds sitting around saying "nugrohigo", "drano" and cracking up
21:31 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Computer Lie #1: You'll never use all that disk space [Time wasted online: 3hrs 42mins 29secs]")
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21:34 Corion Pugs porn updated at http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html (for Win2k, r1631)
21:42 Corion Pugs will need to have a strict! rule against Makefile.PL being interactive and entering an endless loop requiring user feedback (when there is no user) :(((
21:43 integral ooh, down to 4 minutes for a make, nice :-)
21:46 * ninereasons .oO *sigh* it would be nice to get things right the first (or ... fifth) time.  
21:46 Corion sleep is open for anyone, not just me!
21:46 Corion (backlogging :) )
21:46 ninereasons yes, very nice integral.
21:46 ninereasons whatever was done is a big improvement.
21:46 Corion so I won't mind if sharpr or anyone else implements it. I wrote the test for it, that's enough. And I didn't write it, I merely stole it from p5
21:46 integral ninereasons: -H0 so ghc doesn't suck a lot more RAM than you actually have - swapping is slow
21:47 wilx` has joined #perl6
21:47 ninereasons it was becoming a huge thing to make pugs .. not so, anymore
21:49 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1622 (451/4159) | Win2k r1631 (457/4163)
21:49 Corion Wheee. cpansmoking is driving my machine to swapping ... (1GB RAM, single user :) )
21:50 Corion autrijus - fix the trailing comma issue! I find code ugly that writes
21:50 Corion , item
21:50 Corion instead of
21:50 Corion item,
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21:55 ninereasons integral, does this faster compile time mean that pugs will be slower than before?
21:56 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:56 integral ninereasons: maybe.  I'm not sure.  AFAIK you can do 'make optimised' to get a faster pugs :-)
21:57 Corion good night
21:57 * Corion fades
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21:58 ninereasons 'make optimized' now is 8 min, compared to 68m before -H0 was changed, on this machine.
21:59 Limbic_Region ninereasons - that statement may have more meaning if "this machine" were described in better detail (cpu(s), memory, OS)
22:01 ninereasons freebsd 4.11, 1cpu, 800MHz, 1gb RAM,
22:04 rafl_ has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
22:11 ninereasons m..  no, that's 666.45-MHz ... 262144K bytes real mem.  
22:11 slv has left
22:11 ninereasons anyway, real    2m43.930s for "make" compared to real    8m43.868s for 'make optimized'.  
22:12 ninereasons I'm not reluctant to compile anymore. not such a big deal.
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22:44 Limbic_Region chip you about?
22:44 Limbic_Region seen chip?
22:44 jabbot Limbic_Region: chip was seen on Fri Apr  8 05:11:04 2005
22:44 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=445880 # Parrot vs. C cagematch (Just for Fun)
22:51 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("WTF is up with my DNS")
22:57 crysflame seen bot :)
22:57 jabbot crysflame: I havn't seen bot , crysflame
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