Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:44 putter anyone about?
01:45 kungfuftr nope
01:47 putter ;)
01:48 putter i'm tempted to grab a week's irc logs and plot people v time of day...
01:59 Alias_ define people ?
01:59 Alias_ lurkers or talkers
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02:00 jabbot pugs - 1633 - eval failing expression, to allow the te
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1632 - a few more multidim tests for you :)
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1631 - next should work in a while - test it
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1630 - repair test
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1629 - avoid evil $a special case
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1628 - fix test count
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1627 - (($a = 3) = 4) should work as in perl5
02:00 jabbot pugs - 1626 - * some cleanup and categorizes of READTH
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02:15 Schwern Hey, should say use $_ if given no arguments?
02:19 kungfuftr moo?
02:19 Schwern mu
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02:21 kungfuftr Schwern: should do, since it matches the perl5 behaviour
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02:22 Schwern Here's another way of looking at it:  will print use $_?
02:22 kungfuftr yup, currently does
02:23 kungfuftr perl -e "foreach(qw/foo bar baz/){ print; }"
02:23 Schwern ...
02:23 Schwern In Perl 6
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02:25 kungfuftr Schwern: couldn't be sure, i'd reckon it'd be something for S29 but as far as pugs would be concerned, it should match the current perl5 behaviour
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02:30 kungfuftr Schwern: unless of course i am indeed crazy
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02:39 Khisanth Schwern: is there a really good reason why it shouldn't default to $_?
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02:46 metaperl slides to my upcoming Perl Mongers talk on slurpy list parms: http://www.metaperl.com/talks/p6-fp-slurpy/index.html
02:48 Schwern Khisanth:  No.  Just looking for something authoritative
02:51 kungfuftr Schwern: as far as i'm aware the reason autrijus goes by what perl5 does is by what larry has said to him
02:56 Schwern That's fair nuff.  But nothing implemented works that way which made me wonder.
02:57 Khisanth aren't chomp and chop already implemented? what do they use?
02:57 kungfuftr Schwern: commit some tests?
03:03 Schwern kungfuftr:  I've sent a Perl6::Say patch to Damian.  We'll see what he says
03:03 kungfuftr gd gd
03:04 * kungfuftr will setup a test in the meantime
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03:05 kungfuftr hhhmmm... though easier said than done at 4am
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05:25 autrijus greetings lambdacamels!
05:25 Alias_ HAIL FEARLESS LEADER!
05:25 autrijus greetings!
05:26 * autrijus wonders if stevan is asleep
05:26 autrijus trailing comma is parsed; multidim arrays now works
05:26 autrijus still working on more itype
05:27 Khisanth multidim arrays are just arrays with array references?
05:28 autrijus yeah, sadly.
05:28 autrijus real multidim (is shape) needs to wait a bit
05:29 Khisanth hrm that "are" was actually suppose to be an "or"
05:30 Khisanth btw, would it be possible to have "my Array %hash is Scalar;"? :p
05:30 autrijus my Array %hash
05:30 autrijus same as
05:30 autrijus my %hash is Array
05:30 autrijus so sure
05:30 autrijus you can have that
05:31 autrijus it will just be a "%hash" symbol that implements both the Scalar interface and an Array interface
05:31 Khisanth but not the rest right? I assume it wouldn't be legal to have multiple "is"
05:31 Khisanth O_O!
05:31 autrijus the usefulness of it is left as an exercise
05:31 autrijus for the insane among us
05:31 Khisanth well my Array %hash; would make sense :)
05:32 Khisanth I am thinking that would be a hash be you can get some sort of order
05:32 autrijus uh no that would be OrderedHash
05:33 Khisanth I am sure something sufficiently evil will be thought of for this feature
05:37 Ovid has joined #perl6
05:37 autrijus hey Ovid.
05:37 autrijus reboot &
05:37 Ovid Hi autrijus.
05:38 Ovid I just installed pugs.  It's wonderful!
05:39 Ovid Where can I find the documentation for "say" in Perl 6?  I know it seems simple, but that's a rather difficult word to search on.
05:39 mugwump Ovid: got Perl6::Bible?
05:39 autrijus has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
05:39 Ovid I'm looking through it now.  Still can't find it.
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05:41 Ovid Specifically, I'm wondering if say doesn't have any arguments, is it supposed to default to printing the current topic?
05:41 Ovid Feh.  I was looking at Perl6::Bible on CPAN.  Can't install it as Spiffy fails tests.
05:41 Ovid (And I don't want to force Spiffy)
05:42 autrijus has joined #perl6
05:42 Ovid autrijus:  do you know if say is supposed to default to the current topic if no arguments are used?
05:42 autrijus I have no idea.
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05:43 Ovid I was confused, because my first pugs program didn't do what I was thinking "for 1 .. 6 { say }"
05:43 autrijus I based my implementatino on damian's Perl6::Say
05:43 autrijus which did not default on $_
05:44 Ovid Yeah, I noticed that (actually, Schwern pointed that out).  But I can't find where say is documented.  (or "print", for that matter)
05:44 autrijus it's unspecced. see http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/plans/design_docs.pod
05:44 autrijus =item X. I/O
05:46 Ovid I would also think that print would default to the local topic, but I keep thinking that someone mentioned something about this.  Can't remember.
05:46 Ovid s/local/current/
05:46 autrijus again, I have no idea.
05:47 Ovid Oh well.  I'll play with pugs more, see what I find.
05:49 Khisanth I guess the only way to find out which is better is to write a bunch of Perl6 programs :)
05:50 autrijus I think I'm inclining toward defaulting
05:51 Khisanth to what?
05:51 autrijus $_
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05:52 Ovid It makes sense, but I'm composing an email to the Perl6 language list right now, if for nothing else than to find out if there's anything resembling an index for the perl6 docs.
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05:53 Ovid autrijus:  if the latest subversion copy of pugs fails to compile (GHC 6.4), should we send bug reports?  If so, to whom?
05:54 Khisanth write tests! :)
05:54 autrijus Ovid: failed how?
05:54 autrijus nopaste the error?
05:54 Khisanth hmm wait that is the wrong bugs
05:54 Ovid Are you sure?  Over 10% of them have failed.
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05:54 * Khisanth goes to poke portage again
05:56 ninereasons over 10% of what failed, Ovid?
05:56 Ovid http://rafb.net/paste/results/LNwIpT64.html
05:56 theorbtwo Is it failing to /compile/, or to /test/?
05:56 autrijus oh. tests fails.
05:56 autrijus that's normal.
05:56 Ovid Failing the test.
05:57 Ovid Oh, I didn't know that.
05:57 autrijus you said "fails to compile" :)
05:57 Ovid Ack!  Sorry :(
05:57 ninereasons see /topic
05:57 theorbtwo End of the /topic gives expected test fails.
05:57 * theorbtwo is still mostly asleep.
05:57 Ovid Didn't see that :)
05:57 Khisanth autrijus: what about the ld warnings?
05:58 theorbtwo Ovid: The best way to find things in the design docs is to get them all in one place, then grep.
05:58 autrijus Khisanth: what warnings?
05:58 autrijus like, Perl6::Bible.
05:58 Khisanth autrijus: lines 85 to 98 in that paste
05:58 Ovid theorbtwo:  have you tried grepping for "say" or "print" in there?  :)
05:59 ninereasons those "cannot modify a constant item" errors are fatal, autrijus.  They leave many tests unexecuted.
06:00 ninereasons I don't know what to do when I encounter them, though.  comment them out, and substitute a "fail" test?
06:03 ninereasons What is your preference?
06:04 autrijus ninereasons: can you point me to an example?
06:04 ninereasons undef.t
06:04 autrijus Khisanth: never seen that before. weird
06:04 ninereasons $s = undef works.
06:04 ninereasons undef $s does not
06:04 autrijus Ovid: welcome to AUTHORS.
06:04 autrijus * default say() and print() to $_, as suggested by Ovid.
06:04 autrijus ninereasons: checking.
06:05 Ovid Thanks.  I actually was planning on submitting failing tests for that if I could verify the behavior :)
06:05 autrijus that works too. your email?
06:05 autrijus (for committership)
06:07 Ovid Hold on.  I'll make one.
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06:08 Ovid publiustemp-perl6pugs@yahoo.com
06:08 Ovid And thanks :)
06:09 autrijus sent. welcome aboard!
06:09 * autrijus now looks at undef.t
06:09 Ovid Woo hoo!
06:10 ninereasons the latest version of t/builtins/defined.t has two tests commented out, which cannot be parsed: failing with "cannot modify a constant item: VInt (val)"
06:10 autrijus k. fixing
06:11 Ovid Hmm ... term of use agreement in Chinese.  I'm not signing away my firstborn son, am I? :)
06:11 autrijus http://wagner.elixus.org/~hcchien/termtouse.html
06:11 Alias_ Ovid: You know, everyone keeps asking that
06:12 autrijus gah. that's the last time.
06:12 * autrijus fixes foundry
06:12 Khisanth I doubt autrijus and co. could handle that many screaming babies
06:12 Alias_ So far we've been able to provide answers that fool them into thinking that it is merely harmless boilerplate :)
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06:14 Ovid Heh :)
06:15 Alias_ Khisanth: Premium Soylent Green
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06:19 autrijus fixed.
06:19 ninereasons that was quick.
06:19 autrijus I fixed the term of use :)
06:19 autrijus not undef.t :)
06:20 autrijus _now_ fixing undef.t
06:20 ninereasons oh.
06:20 ninereasons interesting.  if I say $a = undef; and then undef $a; there is no error.
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06:29 Ovid Luke Palmer confirms that "say" default to $_.
06:29 Ovid OK, I'm tired. Need to head to bed.  Cheers, folks.
06:29 autrijus cool!
06:30 Alias_ I wonder what the 29 modules that have ->say method think about Perl 6 stealing a method name
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06:33 ninereasons is that an actual count, Alias?  or a hypothetical number?
06:34 Alias_ It's an approximation of an actual count
06:35 Alias_ I can't remember the exact number, but it was in that vacinity
06:35 Alias_ s/modules/.pm files/
06:39 shapr good morning #perl6!
06:39 * shapr boings cheerfully
06:39 ninereasons hi.
06:40 ninereasons thanks for taking time with my haskell confusion earlier.
06:40 shapr Sure, anytime I'm not working, I'm happy to help.
06:42 ninereasons i've quite a hump to get over, before haskell looks right, to me, I'm afraid
06:42 shapr Well, I may not be a giant, but at least you can stand on the shoulders of short people.
06:43 shapr Have you seen the HaskellDemo?
06:44 ninereasons yes.  
06:44 shapr do you have any specific questions past that?
06:45 ninereasons it's just going to take a while.  that's all.  
06:45 ninereasons and that's okay.
06:45 Alias_ shapr: Speaking of which...
06:45 shapr I can help out for a few minutes before I start work. Anything inside Pugs I can explain?
06:45 shapr Alias_: yes! more ideas?
06:45 Alias_ shapr: You said Foo' is a common thing, because ' is a normal character?
06:45 Alias_ in identifiers...?
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06:46 ninereasons I was trying to understand Prim.hs line 79 -- another bug.
06:47 shapr Alias_: yes, it's often used to mean another version of the same function, refined in whatever direction appeals to the author.
06:47 Alias_ You need to note that early too
06:47 Alias_ It's a huge gotcha
06:48 shapr ok, I'll add that in there.
06:48 Alias_ I'd say after the "but we _should_ have used a type" example
06:48 Alias_ do it early
06:48 Alias_ While they are still thinking about identifiers
06:48 shapr ok, I'll add that.
06:48 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:49 shapr ninereasons: "unless (isNothing $ vCast mv) $ do" ?
06:49 Alias_ I've yet to pluck up the courage to look at types and data stuff yet :)
06:49 Alias_ But I'll keep you posted :)
06:50 shapr The types and data stuff is quite nifty, it's like data structure lego where you can give a single pattern to be repeated like tiles.
06:50 ninereasons yes, shapr.  the "undef" function doesn't work right.
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06:51 ninereasons Looking at it, I can't understand why.
06:51 shapr neither can I, it looks right.
06:51 ninereasons it works to say $s = undef
06:52 shapr what fails?
06:52 ninereasons it does not work to say "undef $s"
06:52 ninereasons unless $s is already undef
06:53 castaway Haskell is like lego?
06:53 castaway (g'mornin)
06:53 shapr algebraic datatypes are like lego.
06:53 Alias_ evil animated liquid lego
06:53 shapr greetings castaway
06:54 Alias_ If the lego came in the form of structured clusters of nanobots
06:54 shapr ninereasons: isNothing is used for values that can be Nothing or Just a, maybe undef needs to explicitly test for VUndef?
06:55 shapr At first sleepy read, I assume that Nothing was the same as VUndef, but now I wonder.
06:55 * shapr tries that again.
06:56 shapr Maybe if it isNothing it still needs to be set to VUndef?
06:56 ninereasons oh.
06:56 ninereasons well, maybe.
06:56 shapr I'm not sure about that, just a guess without digging into isNothing vs VUndef
06:58 * castaway challenges shapr to make a wiki page explaining bits of haskell as lego blocks .)
06:59 * shapr digs into VUndef
06:59 castaway which of the nice bots here does "seen" and how?
06:59 shapr I assume that isNothing is the standard Haskell function of the same name. VUndef is pugs-only.
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07:00 ninereasons I think that must be right.  googling VUndef today, I found only Pugs
07:00 ninereasons (now that you mention it)
07:00 shapr and VUndef is defined in AST.hs
07:01 shapr Along with most of the pugs standard types.
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07:02 Khisanth castaway: jabbot does that
07:02 Khisanth castaway: and lambdabot too :)
07:02 castaway jabbot: seen theorbtwo
07:02 jabbot castaway: theorbtwo was seen on Fri Apr  8 13:58:00 2005
07:02 castaway jabbot: what timezone, idiot?
07:02 jabbot castaway: Are such questions much on your mind?
07:02 shapr The behaviour of vCast with VUndef is defined in AST.hs also, and that makes me wonder.
07:03 Khisanth castaway: probably whatever timezone taiwan uses :)
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07:03 Khisanth maybe lambdabot can do better
07:03 shapr @seen shapr
07:03 shapr @seen theorbtwo
07:03 ninereasons what's a webwitch? :)
07:04 shapr me!
07:04 castaway Thanks
07:04 shapr My woman started a company in 1994, and now I'm half owner.
07:04 * castaway wonders if he went back to bed after all
07:06 shapr ninereasons: it looks to me like it's either a bug in vCast, or more likely that undef needs to set the value to VUndef anyway, even when it isNothing
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07:07 shapr So the missing answer is, why does this check for isNothing? Why doesn't it do anything in that case?
07:07 ninereasons compiling
07:08 ninereasons "Linking..." really is a resource hogging process!
07:09 shapr It must be because of line 267 in AST.hs, "vCast VUndef = Nothing"
07:10 shapr Oh of course, if you vCast VUndef, it becomes Nothing, so, (isNothing $ vCast mv) means "you've already got one"
07:13 shapr I don't get it.
07:14 * shapr stares at the IORef bit
07:15 shapr ninereasons: what do you think? any ideas?
07:16 castaway somebody name me a city in taiwan
07:16 * shapr renames castaway "a city in taiwan"
07:16 rgs READTHEM++
07:17 shapr Ok, after going around and around in the source, it sure looks like undef should work.
07:17 * castaway ruffles shapr. (silly silly)
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07:18 shapr wow, Haskell killed ninereasons' hardware :-(
07:18 Khisanth castaway: taipei? :)
07:18 castaway already got it, ta
07:21 shapr oh wait, maybe undef($s) needs to be declared in initSyms along with the other parens using critters?
07:21 shapr could it be that simple?
07:22 shapr castaway: have you seen the tree datatype example on HaskellDemo?
07:22 * shapr switches back to data lego.
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07:23 castaway I dont think I read that far yet ,)
07:24 shapr Are you at work? Or can I pester you with interesting bits of information?
07:25 castaway yes at work
07:25 shapr ah, too bad.
07:25 castaway (this shouldnt stop you pestering tho ,)
07:25 castaway multitasking, remember? :)
07:25 shapr oh right!
07:37 * shapr is semitasking (doing several things badly)
07:38 castaway *g*
07:38 shapr I have to work, but I shall return to discuss lego
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07:40 castaway goodie
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07:59 masak is it true that 6.2.0 is due Monday?
07:59 castaway somethihng like that, yup
07:59 masak are we skipping 6.1.0?
08:00 castaway I suspect even numbers are supposed to be stable, and odd not.. like in many OS projects
08:00 castaway but I dont know it for sure
08:00 Khisanth I don't think you can get 6.1.0 with 2*PI :)
08:01 masak but you can get 6.0.14?
08:02 masak castaway: what does "stable" mean in this case? pugs is the most impressively volatile project i have seen so far
08:02 castaway I have no idea, I'm just guessing :)
08:03 masak :)
08:03 Khisanth masak: version numbers seem to be an indication of what has been implemented
08:03 masak ok
08:04 castaway that doesnt explain the skipping of 6.1.0 though
08:04 masak maybe it's an indication of what not to implement :P
08:04 Khisanth actually it does :)
08:04 integral 6.1 isn't specified in the Pugs roadmap :-)
08:05 Khisanth exactly! :p
08:05 masak the question is why
08:05 Khisanth http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/01Overview.html
08:05 Khisanth and scroll down to Do you have a roadmap for Pugs development?
08:05 integral because each milestone adds one digit of 2π
08:06 castaway thats still a what, and not a why :)
08:06 integral hmm: «Starting from 6.2.0, the Pugs team will also provide binary builds on selected platforms.»
08:06 Khisanth it also explains why there is 6.0.14
08:06 masak how so?
08:06 Khisanth 2*PI only applies to major and minor version numbers :)
08:07 masak of course
08:07 masak i see now
08:07 masak it's all so weirdly clear
08:07 masak well, thx for the explanation. gotta go
08:07 masak has left
08:09 castaway ooh, they will? nifty
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08:52 autrijus hi. sorry. was away.
08:52 autrijus @ meeting
08:53 castaway :)
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10:55 * kungfuftr dances
10:56 autrijus hi kungfuftr :)
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11:07 autrijus gaal++ # eclipse build fix
11:07 Limbic_Region chip about?
11:07 Limbic_Region seen chip?
11:07 jabbot Limbic_Region: chip was seen on Fri Apr  8 05:11:04 2005
11:07 castaway @seen chip
11:08 theorbtwo seen theorbtwo
11:08 jabbot theorbtwo: theorbtwo was seen on Fri Apr  8 13:58:00 2005
11:08 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~spur/journal/24062 # contemplating a C -> Parrot compiler
11:08 theorbtwo Hm, odd.
11:08 theorbtwo seen theorbtwo
11:08 jabbot theorbtwo: theorbtwo was seen on Fri Apr  8 19:08:32 2005
11:08 theorbtwo Much better.
11:08 theorbtwo (Timezone reference.)
11:09 castaway ?
11:15 * kungfuftr got freebsd installed on his laptop last night... time for some svk goodness
11:19 theorbtwo (13:08:35) jabbot: theorbtwo: theorbtwo was seen on Fri Apr  8 19:08:32 2005
11:19 theorbtwo Note the times -- jabbot's time is 6 hours ahead of ours.
11:21 castaway ah
11:21 * castaway didnt think to look at the localtime shown ,)
11:27 wolverian that's why seen bots usually say 'foo hours ago', or so, instead of explicit times.
11:27 theorbtwo Aye.
11:28 theorbtwo I suggested that to gugod a while ago, he said something noncomittial.
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12:00 theorbtwo Chasing modules from: src/Main.hs
12:00 theorbtwo Could not find module `Posix':
12:00 theorbtwo  it is a member of package posix-1.0, which is hidden
12:00 theorbtwo  (imported from src/Internals.hs)
12:05 autrijus interesting.
12:05 autrijus ghc 6.4?
12:07 theorbtwo Yeah.
12:07 theorbtwo I have a replaced External/Haskell.hs, though, which may be causing it.
12:07 theorbtwo And I just noticed that it's non-fatal.
12:07 theorbtwo Oh, huh... perhaps it is fatal.
12:07 theorbtwo Yeah, it is fatal.
12:08 autrijus ok.
12:10 theorbtwo Hm, making my External.Haskell a no-op module doesn't change it, though.
12:10 autrijus svn up and try again?
12:10 autrijus (need another perl Makefile.PL)
12:11 theorbtwo I'm doing a fresh checkout and trying again.
12:11 autrijus I've already renamed Posix.hs to Compat.hs :)
12:14 theorbtwo 1641 pure gives me a bunch of errors in src/Run.hs (Not in scope: evaluateMain 1x, newMval 11x, emptyEnv 1x).
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12:20 autrijus your GHC is seriously weird.
12:21 autrijus Run.hs has an "import Eval"
12:21 autrijus it should see those symbols.
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12:24 * castaway figured out what was up with gentoo
12:24 theorbtwo Something is indeed seriously strange here.
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12:24 castaway (>=ghc-6.3 masked until haskell packages are ported)
12:28 theorbtwo "If the export list is omitted, all values, types and classes defined in the module are exported, but not those that are imported."
12:28 theorbtwo I'm rather stumped.
12:28 * theorbtwo sighs, reverts to searching for what revision broke it.
12:31 autrijus castaway: =/
12:31 * castaway overrides the mask with an unmask, and emerges it anyway
12:31 castaway it doesnt say *which* packages
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12:36 elmex cutee
12:37 theorbtwo Hmm?
12:37 elmex theorbtwo: hi
12:38 autrijus greetings
12:38 elmex autrijus: hi
12:38 theorbtwo Hi, @array[$x].
12:39 cognominal autrijus: the French Perl Workshop is at the same time as the austrian perl workshop
12:39 theorbtwo autrijus, you were right, it was my GHC install.  Now I just wish I knew why installing plugins as a package killed it.
12:39 cognominal I am making a presentatin of perl6 at fpw.
12:40 autrijus cognominal: exactly the same time?
12:40 cognominal I was thinking about making a japh contest.
12:40 * rgs will be at the fpw too
12:41 cognominal maddinghe the organizer was thinking about setting some sort of duplex
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12:41 cognominal that would be cool to present the japh at this duplex
12:42 Maddingue has joined #perl6
12:42 cognominal more so because most of the perl6 luminaries will be at yhe apw.
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12:43 cognominal Maddingue: autrijus ask me: apw amd fpw exactly the same time?
12:43 Maddingue yes
12:43 Maddingue 9 and 10 june
12:44 cognominal and both in Europe :)
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12:54 Maddingue is now known as Maddingue_
12:54 theorbtwo Morning, Mr. Villin.
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12:55 * castaway looks around. Who?
12:55 theorbtwo mugwump == Sam Vilain (I can't spell.)
12:56 castaway ah
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12:58 cognominal Villin is not interesting in French, "Vilain", on the other hand gives mugwump a status of a bad guy :)
12:59 castaway ooh, Symbian
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13:23 elmex ?
13:23 elmex whats up?
13:23 castaway The sky
13:26 stevan whoa,.. the tests are spewing VUndef like crazy
13:26 stevan I assume I picked a bad revision to build :)
13:34 theorbtwo Whoo, I'm offically RSVP'd to the YAPC::NA hackathon.
13:34 stevan theorbtwo: nice!
13:34 castaway cool
13:35 castaway btw does it/he say anywhere how its going to happen? (I'm assuming laptops and wifi or some such)
13:35 * stevan /really/ needs to read his Haskell book before the hackathon
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13:35 theorbtwo Not that I'm aware of.  Forwarded you the mail he sent me; he's setting up a ML.  (Already responded with your email.)
13:36 castaway Ok
13:36 stevan castaway: I think I read something about stealing the neighbors phone line
13:36 stevan theorbtwo: ML?
13:36 castaway *g*
13:36 theorbtwo Mailing List.
13:36 stevan ah
13:37 * castaway checks email.. "Unbiased info for investor intelligence.. ", no, thats not it
13:38 * stevan checks his mail,.. oooh I can get a Green Card! .... and vicodin for cheap .....
13:38 castaway :)
13:39 castaway yeah, a whole $2.99
13:39 wolverian this is a stupid question probably, but does eval() support evaluation in an arbitrary scope?
13:39 stevan wolverian: I think/would assume so, is it not?
13:40 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1641 (426/4157) | Win2k r1631 (457/4163)
13:41 wolverian stevan: well, I couldn't find it on p6l. :) (and I don't have a running pugs.) and I don't know how to reference a scope.
13:41 stevan wolverian: what exactly would you want to do with it?
13:42 stevan I can try it for you
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13:43 mugwump cognominal: yes, my surname is a french insult or something like that :).  I don't know exactly what the story is with that
13:43 wolverian stevan: I would want to eval code in, say, the current scope, not in a child lexical scope as eval() does in perl5.
13:43 mugwump Maybe this is part of the reason my great-grandfather left France for England
13:43 castaway Villain is just "villager" isnt it?
13:44 castaway (or used to be ,)
13:44 stevan wolverian: hmmm, I would guess it would behave much like perl5 does
13:44 mugwump I hear varied things about that, maybe it was once but now with the advent of industrialisation the french people have been engineered to regard it as an insult
13:45 castaway maybe.. like "redneck" and so on
13:45 wolverian stevan: oh, so it's impossible to do a REPL without recursive eval?
13:45 stevan wolverian: since the child lex scope is a child of the current scope, why does it matter?
13:45 wolverian stevan: see above.
13:45 stevan REPL?
13:45 wolverian read-evaluate-print-loop. such as what running 'pugs' starts.
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13:45 stevan wolverian: ok
13:45 wolverian the difference between that and perl -de0 is that perl -de0 forgets the previous line's lexicals.
13:46 wolverian (since the lexical subscope of the previous eval() does not carry over to the next.)
13:46 stevan wolverian: so you want the carryover I assume
13:46 wolverian so the only option is to munge the $string to be evalled and recursively eval in it. this will blow the stack.
13:46 wolverian stevan: the generalised method would be to refer to scopes as objects and give them .eval methods.
13:46 wolverian I think.
13:47 stevan wolverian: this sounds like a topic for perl6 lang
13:47 wolverian I guess. I searched it, didn't find anything. I didn't search very deeply, though.
13:48 * theorbtwo wonders if eval should be a method on a block or coderef object.
13:48 wolverian isn't that the same thing?
13:48 wolverian (I hate how ruby thinks a block is not a Proc. argh.)
13:49 wolverian I guess it could be a method on a continuation. :)
13:50 wolverian since isn't that what blocks are?
13:51 theorbtwo I'm not 100% sure about the differences.
13:51 wolverian do you know if there is something on p6l or elsewhere I could read on this? any official decisions?
13:51 wolverian if not, I'll just ask on p6l
13:52 theorbtwo Asking on p6l would probably be good.
13:52 wolverian I'll do that.
13:55 * castaway gets the email eventually.
14:03 wolverian sent something I hope will be coherent.
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14:27 ninereasons I guess all those VUndefs in r1641 are for debugging?  trace?  
14:27 stevan ninereasons: thats what I assume too
14:27 boegel has left "Leaving"
14:27 ninereasons sure makes a messy "make test"
14:27 ninereasons but otherwise, seems unbroken
14:28 stevan ninereasons: yeah the fail to pass ratio is still about right
14:28 stevan ninereasons: if you wanted neat, you might be in the wrong place ;)
14:29 ninereasons heheh .  yes.
14:29 ninereasons #parrot, maybe :)
14:31 wolverian hmm, I see a t/Dialects. why the capital D?
14:32 stevan wolverian: folders starting with capitals are ignored by make test (i believe)
14:32 wolverian ah, okay. it is visible in the smoke though.
14:33 stevan wolverian: to be honest, I dont even know what that is for
14:33 ninereasons those tests consist of nothing but an 'exit', right now (i think)
14:34 ninereasons yep (had to delete my working copy to see)
14:40 ninereasons stevan, is that syntax in t/Dialects/perlego/isrw.t legal?  ' for $foo <-> $bar { ' ?
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14:42 stevan ninereasons: no idea
14:45 theorbtwo At one point, <-> was going to be like ->, but making the parameters :rw.
14:46 theorbtwo Don't know if that's still the case.
14:50 ninereasons it does not show up in the Synopses, where i can find it.
14:50 wolverian that was juerd's suggestion. I don't think larry ever liked it.
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15:27 ninereasons wolverian, I suppose that, with perl6's ability define your own '<->', juerd has a chance to get his way through defacto adoption.  right?
15:30 theorbtwo Right.
15:30 theorbtwo That's what the Dialects dir is there for, in part -- testing of dialects of perl.
15:35 ninereasons that would seem to empower the community to overrule the designers
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16:20 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "that's tight!" (8 lines, 156B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9050
16:24 lightstep what does it do?
16:24 ninereasons it prints "a", and "><"
16:25 lightstep so undef $a.say first executes the say, then the undef? discarding the result of say?
16:26 ninereasons discarding the results of $a = 'a'
16:26 rjbs has left
16:26 lightstep i mean, is undef $a.say different from undef ($a.say) ?
16:27 ninereasons yes, I'm sure it is.
16:27 ninereasons (checking)
16:27 lightstep if so, it's not unly a precedence table thing
16:29 ninereasons no, it's the same.
16:30 lightstep then howcomes it prints "><"? isn't undef given `true' as the paramenter?
16:31 ninereasons that's not the "real" undef.  Maybe that's why.
16:31 ninereasons undef $a is broken, right now. lightstep
16:34 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "that's tight 2" (8 lines, 165B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9051
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16:35 ninereasons lightstep, same behavior . is that a surprise?
16:36 lightstep yes
16:36 ninereasons or, lightstep, you aren't thinking of defined() are you?
16:36 lightstep how does undefine get a handle to $a?
16:37 lightstep (i'm not thinging about builtins at all)
16:37 ninereasons ok
16:37 ninereasons $a is in the lexical scope
16:38 ninereasons ? did I say that right?
16:40 lightstep yup
16:40 lightstep oh
16:40 lightstep undefine touches the global variable
16:40 ninereasons no new "my $a" ; right.
16:41 ninereasons only done because the builtin undef is broken.
16:41 lightstep i forgot that p6 has no-arglist subs too
16:41 ninereasons I think that the arglist sub syntax is going to rapidly become perl6 cargo-cult
16:42 mugwump (ML-grade method signatures specified Perlishly)++
16:43 lightstep subs with arglist are better than @_&shift
16:43 ninereasons they sure are!
16:45 ninereasons but I can see the pattern being established already, of full type and return declarations.
16:45 ninereasons I expect that it might appear to some as the one way to do it
16:45 wolverian static typing is nice when it is done with roles instead of classes.
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17:53 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=446048 # CP6AN should be a database
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18:08 autrijus greetings!
18:08 mugwump hello!
18:08 Khisanth Limbic_Region: not sure if you were around but I am pretty sure that has been discussed :)
18:09 Limbic_Region no Khisanth - I have been working today
18:09 autrijus Gruber: around?
18:09 Limbic_Region glad that it was brought up though
18:09 Limbic_Region @seen Gruber?
18:09 Limbic_Region hmmm
18:09 Limbic_Region seen Gruber?
18:09 jabbot Limbic_Region: Gruber was seen on Tue Apr  5 22:57:02 2005
18:10 Khisanth Limbic_Region: not today, quite a few days ago maybe weeks :)
18:10 Limbic_Region oh - well then I am just pointing out to autrijus that it is being discussed on PerlMonks
18:10 Khisanth jabbot needs to be reporting that in a more relative fashion :)
18:10 Limbic_Region autrijus, in case you missed it http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=446048 # CP6AN should be a database
18:11 autrijus "Databases support versioning? What planet do you live on?
18:11 autrijus Maybe you're talking about the Subversion database?"
18:11 autrijus I like this :D
18:13 Limbic_Region jZed in that thread is Jeff Zucker - a pretty smart DB guy (more than a couple DB related CPAN modules to his name)
18:14 Limbic_Region He is always willing to help out on stuff if someone needs help with that area
18:14 * Limbic_Region isn't much of a DB weenie himself
18:15 mugwump who needs a database when you have STM anyway
18:15 castaway stm?
18:15 mugwump exceptions on acid
18:15 mugwump (or, Software Transactional Memory, if you prefer)
18:17 autrijus different uses :)
18:17 autrijus database handles the query part
18:17 autrijus which STM can't quite help you with
18:17 autrijus but sure, more db use of STM would be cool
18:18 * mugwump nods
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18:30 autrijus $*PID checked in
18:30 autrijus basic undef() fixed
18:31 ninereasons yay
18:31 crysflame yay
18:32 autrijus :)
18:33 * mugwump just got asked for identification by the obligitary post-9/11 dudes with assault rifles in the airport
18:33 autrijus cool
18:34 mugwump I should have asked them to watch my stuff while I get a coffee
18:34 theorbtwo Mugwump: Where are you?
18:34 mugwump SIN airport
18:35 Gruber autrijus: yup
18:35 theorbtwo Ah, Singapore.
18:35 theorbtwo I suspect they would not be amused.
18:35 autrijus Gruber: there you are. thanks for the $*PID patch, I've checked it in
18:35 autrijus hopefully not breaking win32
18:35 mugwump especially if pressed my remote-controlled firecracker switch from the counter
18:36 Gruber saw that, thanks
18:36 autrijus my "o" and "u" key on the keyboard are half-broken :-/
18:36 * autrijus ponders sleep first, get a replacement tomorrow, _then_ resume hacking
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18:38 * mugwump wonders whether it is worth resisting the urge to sleep
18:39 theorbtwo autrijus: Made some progress on an hs-plugins-based External.Haskell, but it's now not finding the u_* symbols from Unicode.o for some reason.
18:39 autrijus theorbtwo: you need to link against UnicdeC.o
18:40 autrijus maybe just load it
18:40 theorbtwo Hm, that's an idea.
18:40 autrijus same for pcre/pcre.o
18:40 theorbtwo Nod.
18:40 theorbtwo I expected it to figure that out itself, though.
18:41 autrijus n, thse two are linked explicitly
18:41 autrijus probably not part f .hi
18:41 autrijus gah. I'll try repair my keyboard a bit. bbiab :)
18:41 theorbtwo I got the gist.
18:42 theorbtwo That's a new one: "pugs: Prelude.undefined"
18:43 ninereasons I give up.  how do you display the differences between two subversion versions?  
18:43 stevan svn diff
18:43 theorbtwo svn diff -r a:b
18:43 stevan svn help diff :)
18:43 slv has joined #perl6
18:44 ninereasons svn help diff  - gah;
18:44 ninereasons thanks.
18:44 stevan ninereasons: what the theorbtwo said
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18:44 stevan ninereasons: this is always helpful to me http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/index.html
18:45 theorbtwo I tend to do svn diff -rHEAD|less a decent bit
18:46 ninereasons stevan && theorbtwo  thanks.
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18:55 autrijus back
18:55 stevan autrijus: I found a bug with named parameters
18:55 autrijus aside from multidim, what else to you consider to be 6.2.0 blocker?
18:55 autrijus s/to/do/
18:56 autrijus next/redo in all loops, maybe?
18:56 autrijus stevan: oh?
18:56 stevan how about mutable sub parameters ?
18:56 stevan (anyway back to named params) this works: sub foo (+$x = 3) { $x }
18:56 autrijus "is rw" / "is copy" ?
18:56 stevan autrijus: those work?
18:57 stevan but this does not: sub foo2 (+$x = 3, +$y = 5) { $x + $y }
18:57 autrijus yeah, a parsebug
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18:58 stevan autrijus: I added tests for it in t/subroutines/sub_named_params.t
19:00 autrijus looking
19:02 autrijus fixed.
19:02 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("weekend")
19:02 autrijus r1647
19:02 stevan whooo hooo
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19:04 autrijus now, let's see "is rw"
19:05 autrijus pugs> sub destroy ($x is rw) { $x = 7 }; my $v = 1; destroy $v; $v
19:05 autrijus 7
19:05 ninereasons yay
19:05 autrijus r1648.
19:05 ninereasons that's a big stride forward, IMO
19:05 * theorbtwo wonders why svn log|less takes so long to die after I hit q.
19:06 autrijus :)
19:06 chip svn-- # catching SIGPIPE, probably
19:06 stevan autrijus++
19:06 ninereasons autrijus++
19:06 * stevan goes to remove all the hacks around lack of 'is rw'
19:06 autrijus stevan: my IType work today turns out to be worthless... the p6 semantic turns out to be "just like p5, except autoref/deref"
19:07 autrijus I persumed something more clever based on parrot's PMC model
19:07 autrijus turns out to be overclever :-(
19:07 castaway hmm, gentoo is still building ghc (started 4-5 hours ago)
19:07 theorbtwo autrijus: Keep the work around, hope that they're fix the spec?
19:08 autrijus theorbtwo: probably no chance of that, I think it's one of the very wellspecced part
19:08 theorbtwo Oh.
19:08 autrijus I'm still not that sure on this "container type" thing
19:08 autrijus but that's one of perl's defining characteristics
19:08 stevan autrijus: so does my @a = (1, [ 2, 3 ], 4); not DWIM?
19:09 autrijus so if @larry thinks we keep it, we need to keep it
19:09 crysflame autrijus: keep it around as an alternative syntax patch for perl6, since it's supposed to be super-easy to do those with perl6?
19:09 autrijus crysflame: not a syntax I'm afraid
19:10 autrijus stevan: oh, right, that p6c post
19:10 autrijus that has nothing to do with IType.
19:10 autrijus you can try
19:10 autrijus (1, [ 2, 3 ], 4)
19:10 autrijus in the pugs prompt
19:10 autrijus it's a bug in ","
19:10 stevan autrijus: it will flatten (i think) (I am in the middle of make)
19:10 autrijus it flattens eagerly
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19:11 crysflame oh.
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19:15 stevan autrijus: any chance of "is copy" ?
19:16 autrijus I wonder what does it do for multidim
19:16 stevan autrijus: good thought
19:17 * stevan is starting to miss the old aliased parameter passing
19:17 * theorbtwo suspects not what he wants it to.
19:18 theorbtwo But the =:= thread is depressing me.
19:18 theorbtwo I want predictable behavior for $$x, dammit.
19:18 stevan autrijus: will you put it if I promise to only use it on string ;)
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19:19 stevan autrijus: according to s06 (http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Perl6-Bible-0.13/lib/Perl6/Bible/S06.pod#Parameter_traits)
19:19 stevan When applied to a variadic parameter, the rw trait applies to each element of the list:
19:20 autrijus is asavige's (1,[2,3],4) made into a test?
19:21 stevan autrijus: not specifically, but I will make sure the multi-dimensional_array.t file tests that case
19:22 autrijus that test now reads
19:22 autrijus All tests successful (16 subtests UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED).
19:22 autrijus which I assume is an improvement
19:22 autrijus (r1649)
19:22 stevan yes
19:23 stevan autrijus: it tests [1, ['foo', 'bar', 'baz'], 5]
19:23 stevan which is close, but not quite
19:24 stevan so I will un-TODO and add a few tests
19:24 autrijus ok.
19:31 stevan autrijus: it works
19:31 stevan I added it to t/data_types/mixed_multi_dimensional.t as the Array of List test
19:32 autrijus cool
19:35 stevan autrijus: and HoLists seems to work
19:35 ninereasons lots of cool things work now.  
19:35 * ninereasons off to play with pugs
19:35 stevan but accessing them like this %hash<key>[2] does not work
19:35 autrijus good. although rw into deep structures does not
19:35 ninereasons has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:35 autrijus jinx
19:35 autrijus that will still require IType.
19:36 autrijus I've got a design (actually the 3rd -- I'll spare you the details)
19:36 autrijus will try to do it after some more sleep
19:36 stevan autrijus: sounds good... I will try to flesh out more of the corner cases for multi-dims while you sleep
19:36 autrijus cool!
19:36 autrijus stevan++ # test driven
19:37 stevan autrijus++
19:37 autrijus oh btw, kv.t is weird
19:37 stevan I will take a look at it
19:37 autrijus assume %hash = <a 1 b 2>
19:37 autrijus I assume %hash.kv would return <a 1 b 2> in list context
19:37 autrijus otherwise can't quite imagine how it works in for()
19:37 stevan like a zip() maybe?
19:38 autrijus zip() returns a flat list
19:38 autrijus anyway, the original test (and the larry comment below) has it as [[<a 1>], [<b 2>]]
19:38 autrijus but I don't see how for() works with it
19:38 stevan weird
19:38 autrijus and I wonder if larry has it confused with .pairs
19:38 autrijus or rod is confused, or I'm confused.
19:38 autrijus if you have some time, try looking at the test to make some sense, and/or post to p6l :)
19:39 stevan ok
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20:13 Juerd 16:50 < wolverian> that was juerd's suggestion. I don't think larry ever liked it.
20:13 Juerd wolverian: He said he liked it, but for unmentioned reasons decided against.
20:14 Juerd Unless "too many operators" really was the reason, but that rule'd be somewhat inconsistently applied then :)
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20:34 ihb Juerd: which operator?
20:34 wolverian Juerd: ah, sorry.
20:34 wolverian ihb: <->
20:34 ihb and <-> would do...
20:34 wolverian ihb: same as -> except the args would be rw
20:35 ihb -> as in pointy subs?
20:35 wolverian yes.
20:35 ihb for @foo -> { s/.// } # won't work because $_ isn't rw there?
20:36 wolverian er, I think that's invalid; -> _requires_ args. I could be wrong about that, and it's unrelated. I think $_ is rw by default, but named args aren't
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20:36 ihb ok.
20:37 autrijus $_ is rw by default?
20:37 autrijus reference?
20:37 autrijus (it's not in pugs, and I'd be happy to fix)
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20:39 wolverian I don't know if it is.
20:40 wolverian I think it was mentioned somewhere.
20:40 wolverian or maybe when there is no <->, -> is always rw
20:41 wolverian Juerd probably knows better. I shouldn't talk so much when I don't really know the facts.
20:41 autrijus for @foo -> $_ is rw { ... }
20:41 wolverian for @foo -> $a is rw, $b is rw, $c is rw { ... } # repetitive.
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20:45 hlen wolverian, there must be another way to say that
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20:57 Corion Is r1653 build broken ?
20:57 PerlJam wolverian: for @foo -> ($a,$b,$c) is rw { ... }   #  :-)
20:57 Corion : src/Compat.hs:74:0:Couldn't match `IO ProcessID' against `t -> t1'
20:57 Corion ... reading the logs ...
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21:00 PerlJam Corion: compiles for me, are you sure you don't have a local mod that's causing it to break?
21:01 PerlJam (I did "make clean; perl Makefile.PL; make"  btw)
21:02 wolverian PerlJam: hmm. okay. :)
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21:08 Corion Hah. Seems like it was the $*PID patch and I've gotten it to compile now.
21:08 hawkaloogie has joined #perl6
21:08 Corion And the sleep() is useless I think - it should be threadDealy()
21:10 autrijus please fix both and commit :)
21:10 autrijus journal up and I need to sleep now
21:10 autrijus see you tomorrow *wave* &
21:11 Corion autrijus: Looking ;) And my "fix" didn't work out yet :(
21:11 Corion Sleep well, autrijus
21:11 autrijus Corion: just remove the _ from getProcessID, no?
21:11 autrijus but. zzz &
21:15 ninereasons has joined #perl6
21:18 Corion Where do we put tests against builtin variables ? under t/var ? under t/builtins ?
21:19 stevan t/builtins
21:19 Corion stevan: I see some related things in t/magicals
21:19 stevan Corion: also if it a builtin specific to a string or array or something then t/builtins/string, etc
21:19 Corion I want to write a test against $*PID :)
21:19 stevan t/magicals then
21:20 putter has joined #perl6
21:21 putter have we a perl6 syntax expert in the house?
21:23 stevan putter: expert I am not, but I might be able to help
21:25 putter t/statements/if.t has a test case "if {...} ...".  That's a closure as the condition.  Last night I was unable to turn up any documentation to justify this case.  I'm wondering whether the test is itself a bug...
21:25 stevan putter: I think it should work
21:25 BigBear has joined #perl6
21:26 stevan 'if' should be able to be done without parens, and with anything as an arg
21:26 stevan so while it is certainly a perversion of the syntax, it should work
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21:28 stevan putter: did you look in recent perl6-lang emails and #perl6 logs? I think I recall is being discussed somewhere (hence the test)
21:29 putter oops.  duh.  that makes sense.  so closures being "true", it will always be true.  and the test is failing because of a quirky parser problem.
21:30 putter i did grep about in p6l, but not in the #p6 logs.
21:30 stevan putter: yes
21:30 stevan try the #perl6 logs, it may be in there
21:30 stevan I know it is a recent addition to the file because I wrote the test originally and I didnt put it there :)
21:32 putter currently, if {...} { $foo=2 } else { $foo=3}  parse fails, but if a ; is added after the foo=n's, then it parses.
21:32 stevan putter: odd, you want to write up a quick tests and put it in t/pugsbugs/?
21:34 putter the test has been in since 509, nothingmuch, march 7.  at least based on the log entries.  svn blows out with an error message if you ask for contents or diff.:(
21:34 putter i'll add it to pugsbugs.
21:36 Corion Hmmm. While threadDelay compiles, it doesn't magically fix the sleep() issue on Win32.
21:44 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "$_ is rw; $_ is not rw" (9 lines, 333B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9102
21:50 * kungfuftr can no longer build pugs
21:50 kungfuftr /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/libHSbase.a: could not read symbols: Memory exhausted
21:50 shapr has joined #perl6
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21:54 kungfuftr during linking that is
21:54 slv has joined #perl6
21:54 ninereasons linking can be a killer
21:55 moustic hi .. is there a reason why a regexp does not capture anything with the x tag, and something just removing it ?
21:55 ninereasons isn't x is deprecated ?
21:56 ninereasons well, you would be using perl5 rules, though
21:56 ninereasons ?
21:56 moustic yes
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22:01 ninereasons I don't know, moustic;  pugs is being tested against over 1580 perl5 rules, and I'm not sure which ones work.
22:02 ninereasons you can check at t/rules/perl5.t
22:02 moustic ok i will have a look, thx
22:02 kungfuftr bah, sucks
22:04 putter stevan: what is the criteria for placing things in pugsbugs?
22:04 kungfuftr putter: submit a test
22:07 stevan putter: it must be a bug :)
22:07 Corion there are some unexpected successes for p5 rules BTW
22:07 stevan putter: things like what you describe are weird syntax issues.
22:07 stevan Corion: I fixed those,... r1654
22:07 Corion stevan++
22:08 Corion stevan: I just saw them some hours ago, but wasn't able to communicate with #perl6 ;)
22:08 stevan putter: so they don't fit into proper tests
22:08 Corion But sleep() on Win32 now works the same (or even better) as on Unix. Except that sleep() should return the time slept, which it does on neither system...
22:08 stevan Corion++ # :)
22:08 putter tnx.
22:09 Corion But that means only 1 of four tests now fails :)
22:09 stevan Corion: I am guessing you want sleep for LWP::Simple right?
22:09 Corion Maybe Unix should get switched to threadDelay() too.
22:10 Corion stevan: Hmm - no, I wanted it for ... I forgot ;)
22:10 Corion But when I unwind my stack,  I'll hopefully find the cause again ;)
22:11 kungfuftr anyone got any ideas about how to avoid this memory exhaustion linking problem at all?
22:11 Corion kungfuftr: Buy more RAM
22:12 * Corion hides from the rotten tomatoes
22:12 kungfuftr Corion: i have 350Mb
22:12 kungfuftr more than enough
22:13 * kungfuftr checks if there have been ghc updates
22:18 putter is there a list of all the tinderboxes somewhere?  (i see builtins/math/exp.t failing because it rounds off one digit short, and I'm wondering if it is currently working for anyone (thus the test would need to truncate) or not (thus add digit:)).
22:19 shapr For the math builtins I implemented, I just changed test. No one has complained.
22:21 putter tnx.
22:21 Corion [putter]: I only know the one of kungfuftr and mine at http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.{html|yaml}
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22:27 putter Corion: tnx.  I've added an entry in the pugs wiki faq, under "other questions".  also linked to nothingmuch's tinderbox.
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22:34 Corion shapr: If you find tuits, can you look into making sleep x return x (or even the number of seconds acutally slept) ?
22:34 shapr I'll keep that in mind.
22:34 shapr I suspect most of my tuits will happen on Sunday.
22:34 Corion shapr: No hurry - it's merely cosmetic :)
22:36 * Corion & zZzzzZzz
22:41 putter Corion: i just got a "no newline at end of file" warning with a fresh Compat.hs.  fyi.
22:42 ninereasons is there some way to test the output of "say" ?  I want to show that 'say' is the same as 'say $_' in some contexts, but not in others.
22:45 shapr Can you use the tests in want.t?
22:46 shapr It would be nice to have a standard set of contexts for testing.
22:47 ninereasons I should say 'scope', rather than 'context'
22:47 ninereasons sorry.
22:49 putter ninereasons: run pugs as subprocess, with output piped to file?  hmm...  can we rebind stdout yet?
22:49 ninereasons I think that what I want is to redirect $*OUT to a scalar; but that's a todo.
22:49 ninereasons and there is no 'select'
22:50 ninereasons and, i feel silly, but I can't tell whether "say $handle" will print $_ to $handle, or not.
22:50 ninereasons or whether it should.
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22:53 Juerd 22:37 < autrijus> $_ is rw by default?
22:53 Juerd It is.
22:54 ninereasons in any scope?
22:54 Juerd I'd rather explain that as "<-> $_" is used by default, rather than "-> $_ is rw" is used by default
22:54 Juerd But <-> isn't going to happen
22:54 Juerd ninereasons: No, as the default ->.
22:55 ninereasons did you see my paste, above?
23:06 Juerd No
23:06 ninereasons http://sial.org/pbot/9102 # its a bug, not purposely this way
23:08 elmex lolz, aimbot userz, y00, r0ck
23:08 elmex oops, wrong channel
23:08 elmex *g* ;)
23:11 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "getting output of "say" into a variable." (7 lines, 176B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9103
23:11 ninereasons I'm so slow.  I guess that works, though.
23:22 mac93 has joined #perl6
23:26 putter ninereasons: slow is ok.  success! ;)
23:26 Juerd ninereasons: I'm browserless.
23:26 * shapr is brainless
23:27 ninereasons then, will you forgive a paste to #perl ?  It's fairly short
23:27 ninereasons to #perl6 , that is
23:27 * shapr looks at Juerd
23:27 * shapr surely doesn't mind
23:28 putter hey, its perl, here comes one line...
23:28 ninereasons my $a := $_; for 1 .. 3 { $a++ }; say; # 3
23:28 ninereasons for 1 .. 3 { say } # 3\n3\n3\n
23:28 ninereasons for 1 .. 3 { $_++ }; # *** Error: cannot modify constant item at 1
23:30 ninereasons success, yes, putter :)
23:30 shapr this is pugs?
23:30 ninereasons pugs, yep.
23:31 ninereasons a broken nosed pugs, I think.
23:31 ninereasons :(
23:32 shapr should it return a constant?
23:32 bd__ is now known as bd_
23:33 ninereasons $_ should be rw in both scopes;
23:33 ninereasons and $_ should be the default topic for 1..3
23:33 ninereasons not the global - the local
23:33 ninereasons (it's confusing)
23:33 * shapr is confused, yes.
23:34 ninereasons for 1..3 {say} should be the same as
23:34 ninereasons for 1 .. 3 -> $_ { say $_ }
23:34 ninereasons (but that's broken too)
23:35 ninereasons (broken in a different way)
23:35 * shapr blinks
23:36 ninereasons what test function do you use to say "should not succeed"?
23:37 * putter notices "cannot modify constant item" appears 5 times in his most recent "make test".
23:37 ninereasons those errors are usually fatal.
23:38 ninereasons it means that the test file did not execute completely (labelled "dubious")
23:38 ninereasons s/means/indicates the probability/
23:47 * putter notices row of green boxes can mean test died horribly ("dubious").  at least on http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/  (eg, t/builtins/undef.t)  Contrast http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html which got it right.  ???
23:54 ninereasons interesting
23:55 ninereasons what is the proper english name of "$_" ?
23:55 putter topic? (very fuzzy recollection)
23:56 ninereasons that's right, in some contexts; but how about the proper perl5 english name?
23:57 ninereasons it's kind of like that name for the artist formerly called "priince".  
23:57 ninereasons it's  ... you know ... "$_"
23:58 ninereasons default scalar variable?
23:58 mac93 has left "Leaving"
23:58 ninereasons implied scalar?
23:58 putter "The default input and pattern-searching space."  perlvar
23:59 * ninereasons considers calling the  test "The_default_input_and_pattern-searching_space.t"
23:59 putter ;)
23:59 ninereasons :)

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