Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 putter default and implicit seem to figure large in descriptions.
00:00 ninereasons default_var.t ?
00:00 ninereasons under t/var/  ?
00:01 kungfuftr default placeholder?
00:02 putter maybe default_scalar?  @_ apparently being called the default array...
00:02 ninereasons how about placeholder.t ?
00:02 ninereasons good point, putter
00:04 putter "default scalar variable" seems to be a phrase in use.
00:04 kungfuftr hhhmmm... wonder if perl6 is going to have a nicer replacement for @ARGV
00:04 ninereasons I thought 'svn ci <files> ' would check in files that didn't exist before?
00:05 putter svn add  first.  (having hit that earlier this evening)
00:05 ninereasons ah.  that worked
00:07 ninereasons r1663; and only two hours to code what ... 20 lines?
00:07 * ninereasons hangs his head
00:07 shapr running code is good code
00:07 ninereasons thanks for the hug :)
00:07 * shapr grins
00:08 stevan putter: nothingmuch's smoker may not be up to date,.. be sure to check the revision number (if you havent already)
00:09 putter manager: "You spent the entire day and only wrote only thirty lines of this hasscalle code?  You were much more productive in Java."  Sigh.
00:09 ninereasons @*ARGS is not nicer, in my opinion, kungfuftr
00:09 shapr putter: haha!
00:09 shapr That sounds like my life.
00:10 ninereasons kungfuftr, but that's what it is.
00:10 kungfuftr ninereasons: yar, though i suppose it can always be overridden to have handy methods, etc
00:11 ninereasons indeed. "no builtins except lambda"
00:11 ninereasons someone said
00:12 kungfuftr "Knightrider, the kindergarden years"... Kit: "No michael, we are not nearly there yet."
00:13 kungfuftr ++.assuming(2)
00:13 kungfuftr *sigh* i wish i had faster hardware... new installs are always a git
00:13 ninereasons a statement like that must make someone like shapr pretty happy (?)
00:14 kungfuftr *blink*
00:14 ninereasons shapr "..except lambda"
00:15 shapr ?
00:16 * shapr throws lambdas
00:16 shapr This is my throwing lambda of DOOM!
00:17 * ninereasons is not even sure what a lambda is, really :)
00:17 shapr it's this little critter that comes from Alpha Centauri...
00:17 ninereasons a shapeshifter
00:17 shapr Actually, a lambda is a greek letter, and it's part of the lambda calculus.
00:17 kungfuftr sheep rapists
00:17 shapr yow
00:18 ninereasons lamb - da ; I get it
00:18 kungfuftr perl 6, it's getting there... FOR ME TO POOP ON!
00:18 shapr who said no builtins except lambda?
00:18 ninereasons Larry, somewhere
00:19 ninereasons or something near that
00:19 ninereasons (very near, if I recall)
00:19 shapr That's pretty cute. Lambda calculus is pretty close to that.
00:19 shapr It has three builtins. S, K, and I.
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00:20 putter hmm.  if we could write p6 objects with compile-time inline haskell and/or C code, then various "builtins" in Prim.hs could be pulled out.  Prelude.pl? ;)
00:21 ninereasons I'd say that this reminds me of Wittgenstein, if I understood Wittgenstein
00:21 shapr I've heard of him.
00:21 stevan shapr: and can't you make I out of S & K
00:21 shapr stevan: yup
00:22 shapr and you can make all of them out of X
00:22 shapr but it's really convoluted
00:22 stevan shapr: you go girl
00:22 shapr hey, I'm a guy.
00:22 stevan yeah right, and so it ingy
00:22 putter any reason for testgraph.pl to continue not containing a date stamp in its body?  (someone doing autodiffs, etc?)
00:23 shapr Is ingy a guy?
00:23 shapr Brian is usually a male name.
00:23 kungfuftr putter: it's in the title, is good enough
00:23 kungfuftr shapr: yup
00:23 stevan shapr: ingy has a habit of referring to boys as girls sometimes
00:24 stevan on the internet, no one knows your a dog
00:24 kungfuftr stevan: except al gore, he invented everything
00:24 * ninereasons .oO hopes no one discovers he's a dog
00:24 stevan woof
00:26 putter kungfuftr: who looks at titles?  (I sure hadn't been.)
00:27 kungfuftr putter: me
00:27 kungfuftr =0)
00:28 * kungfuftr will be redoing lots of the test stuff tomorrow once my freebsd install is all sorted
00:29 ninereasons I've noticed that occupant count goes down, when autrijus isn't about the place.  maybe a timezone coincidence.  maybe he's a rockstar.
00:29 shapr he's a rockstar, no doubt about it.
00:30 kungfuftr http://search.cpan.org/~dland/A​cme-DonMartin-0.01/DonMartin.pm # excellent!
00:31 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
00:35 putter kungfuftr: so I should punt on adding a gmtime stamp to the top of the body?
00:37 putter hmm... YAML make test quickly eats a GB of memory and becomes a swap stress test.  eep.
00:38 shapr yow
00:38 kungfuftr putter: yar... go for it
00:38 putter k
00:39 kungfuftr punt on? you mean "put off"?
00:39 putter yes.  "punt on" === "put off"  *g*
00:40 kungfuftr k
00:40 kungfuftr nn
00:40 putter now if only I could test it I'd be a happy camper...
00:47 putter nn?
00:48 crysflame putter: wow, neat
00:48 crysflame fsvo "neat"
00:48 crysflame WOW
00:48 crysflame this is incredible!
00:48 crysflame kungfuftr++ # thank you!
00:49 kungfuftr *blink* huh?
00:49 kungfuftr has my evil twin been selling sex toys again?
00:50 crysflame Acme::DonMArtin
00:50 kungfuftr ah
00:55 ninereasons oh man, that's funny.
00:56 putter kungfuftr: it's in
00:56 putter crysflame: i'm not sure which/what was neat, but thanks.
00:58 kungfuftr bah, can't believe i can't get pugs to build... hhhrrrmmm...
00:59 crysflame wuzzat? are you dland?
01:00 kungfuftr crysflame: please english speaking you be
01:00 crysflame kungfuftr: is putter DLAND of CPAN?
01:01 crysflame he seems to be appreciating my complimentary statements
01:01 kungfuftr no idea, tbh
01:01 crysflame as indicated by his most interesting which/what conglomeration
01:01 crysflame okay, enough english.
01:06 putter crysflame: re dland, no.  re appreciating, "putter: wow, neat".
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01:47 crysflame oh. YAML make test. it was sarcasm :|
01:48 crysflame i can't think of why YAML would do that, but i don't know it at all, either
01:49 putter ah...
01:50 stevan part of the YAML test issue is that YAML cannot stream, so building some of them hogs a lot of memory
01:51 putter 1+ GB!?!  At this point I have a new global default hypothesis... if it didn't work, its an x86_64 problem. :/
01:52 putter I added looking into the problem to my infinite todo list... but that was full, so it fell off...
01:54 putter enough ghc unicode fun for today.  g'night folks.
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02:20 elmex ?
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03:27 yinjieh http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/​query-pr.cgi?pr=ports/79704 # parrot vm ports
03:28 yinjieh Anyone who is interested in it can give it a try :)
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04:32 autrijus yay!
04:32 ingy hi autrijus
04:35 autrijus hey. how's going man?
04:36 ingy good
04:36 ingy I'm taking some time out from hacking
04:36 ingy I'll likely get back into  it tommorrow
04:36 ingy I want to get real Kwid support into pugs
04:37 autrijus woot!
04:37 autrijus as in kwid2html via perl5?
04:37 autrijus or something more drastic?
04:37 autrijus s/kwid2html/any2kwid+kwid2any/
04:37 ingy right, with built in pugs installation
04:37 autrijus woot!
04:37 ingy well I have to do it first
04:38 ingy when is the next pugs release
04:38 autrijus ingy++
04:38 autrijus it's 48 hours from now
04:38 ingy :P
04:38 ingy ok good
04:38 ingy perfect
04:39 ingy can I relase Perl6::Makemaker as planned?
04:40 ingy or do you want Perl6-Pugs-Makemaker
04:42 ingy actually i think the module needs to be Perl6::Makemaker
04:42 ingy the dist can be anything but Perl6-MakeMaker is best prolly
04:45 ingy gah, you already released it autrijus
04:45 Khisanth aren't all the Perl6:: modules going to need renaming after perl6's release?
04:46 ingy oh wait...
04:46 ingy Khisanth: no, because they are all written in Perl 5
04:46 ingy so they will just fade away if anything
04:49 ingy autrijus: I see, those modules are indexed from Perl6-Pugs
04:54 autrijus yup.
04:55 autrijus I think it makes sense
04:55 autrijus so just hack lib/Perl6/MakeMaker.pm away
04:55 autrijus and let it update with each weekly pugs release?
04:55 autrijus I see little benefit in separating it out currently
04:55 hawkaloogie has joined #perl6
04:55 autrijus but maybe I missed something
04:58 ingy I thought we would have Perl6-Pugs-6.141 require Perl6-MakeMaker-6.141
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04:59 ingy then we don't have to bundle ever Perl6- module inside pugs like Perl6-Bible say
04:59 * ingy thinks ...
04:59 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
05:00 autrijus sure but well, the point of deps is that some people may choose not to install it
05:00 ingy or maybe we should bundle Perl6-Bible inside Perl6-Pugs
05:00 autrijus but P6::MM makes no sense without P6::Pugs
05:00 autrijus whilst P6::Bible makes lots of sense
05:00 autrijus independently
05:00 autrijus if there is another P6 implementation about
05:00 autrijus then it makes sense to factor P6::MM out
05:00 autrijus and have both implementation depend on it
05:00 autrijus or, if P6::Pugs has a slow release cycle
05:01 autrijus then it may make sense for P6::MM have a faster one
05:01 autrijus but as things currently stand, neither of above is true
05:01 ingy yes but P6::Pugs doesn't need to require ::MM
05:01 autrijus so factoring out P6::MM complicates the installation
05:01 autrijus without apparant benefit
05:01 autrijus it doesn't? I want ext/ to eventually use ::MM
05:01 autrijus instead of M::I::P
05:02 ingy oh...
05:02 ingy I wasn't aware of that
05:02 autrijus otherwise moving modules/ into ext/ will be bothersome
05:02 ingy that's a little tricky...
05:02 autrijus yeah, so it doesn't need to happen right away
05:03 autrijus but with that in mind, I don't see having a separate ::MM as a benefit
05:03 ingy it's actually easier to do that if Perl6::MM is taken outside
05:03 ingy because the prereqs get installed at Makefile.PL time
05:03 autrijus so, you said Pugs doesn't need to require MM
05:03 autrijus but with that plan, we do require MM anyway
05:03 ingy well that was before you wanted ext to use it
05:04 autrijus 12:58 < ingy> I thought we would have Perl6-Pugs-6.141 require
05:04 autrijus              Perl6-MakeMaker-6.141
05:04 * autrijus looks slightly confused
05:04 ingy right, and then it will get installed in time for ext stuff
05:05 ingy if it is in build_requires()
05:05 autrijus *nod* what's bad about adding lib/ as a include path
05:06 autrijus currently installing pugs needs no other cpan modules
05:06 autrijus so unless there's a considerable benefit
05:06 autrijus I'd like not to require other CPAN modules
05:06 ingy well the Perldoc tools do require other modules
05:06 autrijus ok...
05:07 ingy it is a path of insanity to try to avoid other modules
05:07 autrijus sure
05:07 ingy that's what code is there for
05:07 ingy not  to go nuts or anything
05:07 autrijus alright. so you forsee Perldoc as part of pugs or not?
05:07 ingy well for now using lib is probably fine
05:07 ingy I'll hold off
05:07 ingy um
05:07 autrijus *nod* all i'm saying is that
05:08 autrijus I'd be willing to depend on other stuff and roll a Bundle::Pugs
05:08 autrijus as soon as there is a considerable benefit to do so
05:08 ingy I see Pugs build_requires('Perldoc')
05:08 autrijus avoiding premature optimisation etc
05:08 autrijus why do we require that at build time?
05:08 autrijus making manpages?
05:08 ingy yes
05:09 autrijus manpages of what?
05:09 ingy whatever manpages pugs installs
05:09 ingy unless Pugs has no Pod/Kwid
05:09 autrijus sure.
05:10 autrijus it's fine to have Pod :)
05:10 autrijus ok. as soon as there's installable Kwids in Pugs
05:10 autrijus we build_depends on Perldoc
05:10 autrijus that's sane
05:10 autrijus we may also consider include(), but I'm fine with either.
05:10 autrijus before that happens, I'm fine with recommend() perldoc.
05:11 ingy okok
05:11 ingy going out now...
05:11 ingy good luck!
05:11 autrijus :D
05:14 autrijus hrm
05:14 autrijus s:perl5{%([\da-fA-F][\da-fA-F])}{chr(hex($1))}
05:14 autrijus ah. right. :e doesn't yet work in regex
05:14 autrijus that's sad.
05:14 autrijus but wait...
05:15 autrijus s:perl5{%([\da-fA-F][\da-fA-F])}{{chr(hex($1))}}
05:15 autrijus that should work, no?
05:15 autrijus yeah, it works
05:15 autrijus stevan: I'll fix your code :D
05:17 Qiang_zh has joined #perl6
05:17 autrijus stevan: so it turns out you can use
05:17 autrijus      $decoded ~~ s:perl5:g/%([\da-fA-F][\da-fA-F])/{chr(hex($1))}/;
05:18 autrijus freely
05:18 autrijus hi Qiang_zh!
05:19 * autrijus loves the fact that there's no s///e anymore
05:19 autrijus hurray for sanity
05:20 Qiang_zh hello, autrijus :)
05:23 autrijus =) you coming to YAPC::NA, right?
05:23 autrijus I hear there's a perl 6 roundtable the day before the conference
05:23 autrijus not sure of the details yet
05:24 Qiang_zh i guess. this would be my first time
05:24 autrijus nice!
05:24 Qiang_zh toronto is hot already. you guys will have a good sweat during the hackthon :)
05:24 autrijus yapc++
05:24 autrijus the host mentioned skiing
05:24 Qiang_zh hmm.. beer
05:24 autrijus which does not connect with "hot" in my mind
05:24 Qiang_zh oh ??!!
05:24 autrijus yeah. we are going to this cottage far away (90 mins on highway) from toronto
05:25 autrijus apparently well suited for outdoor activitities
05:25 Khisanth 90minutes up a mountain? :)
05:25 Qiang_zh he did mention the canoe tho.
05:25 autrijus that sounds like possible
05:25 autrijus that too
05:25 Khisanth which contradicts the snow a bit
05:26 Qiang_zh summer is much more fun than winter time. there are lots activities around the town as well.
05:26 autrijus wonderful.
05:26 Qiang_zh enough snow already :)
05:26 autrijus I'm thinking of staying a bit longer
05:26 autrijus maybe come to vancouver after that
05:26 autrijus but it's not fixed yet
05:26 Qiang_zh when u going to be here ?
05:26 autrijus 23th of june iirc
05:27 Qiang_zh cancouver is nice too.
05:27 Qiang_zh for travel or
05:28 autrijus maybe staying a bit and enjoy the weather, which is reputed to be nice
05:29 Qiang_zh YES!
05:29 autrijus ok. now lunch, and then _really_ work on this IType thing
05:29 Qiang_zh the people from perlchina wanted me to write some jounal about the conf. i think you can write some too ;D
05:30 Qiang_zh 1:30pm now.
05:31 autrijus yeah. I wake up late :)
05:33 Qiang_zh autrijus: are you going to be preoccupied with hackathon as soon as you arrived ?
05:34 Qiang_zh or occupied .;
05:34 autrijus I think so
05:34 autrijus I arrive on 23th, then go straight to the cottage
05:35 Qiang_zh er. guess we will meet during the conf.
05:36 autrijus are you @ toronto or vancouver?
05:37 Qiang_zh toronto
05:37 autrijus oh cool. then maybe I can stay a couple days after the conf
05:37 Qiang_zh that would be nice ;)
05:38 Qiang_zh hopefully i will move out to a bigger apartment by then (my parents going to visit me around july :)
05:38 Qiang_zh welcome to crash . hehe
05:40 autrijus :D
05:40 autrijus noted. we'll see :)
05:40 Qiang_zh for sure.
05:41 Qiang_zh i think i am going to get a beer... hot hot...
05:42 autrijus cool. and I'm going to get lunch
05:42 autrijus bbiab &
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06:46 Alias_ Goddamned it I hate Win32 file locking
06:50 Khisanth s/ file locking//
06:50 yinjieh good
06:52 Alias_ heh
06:52 Alias_ I quite like much of Windows...
06:52 Alias_ It's relatively stable, it's got great application availability
06:52 Alias_ It makes the everyday tasks relatively simple and relatively tolerable
07:03 Khisanth ack! please tell me "is dis(...)" has been renamed ...
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07:16 autrijus greetings
07:16 Corion has joined #perl6
07:16 Corion yawn
07:17 autrijus examples/hashes/simpleiter.p6 restored to its full glory
07:17 autrijus trailing comma, no parens around condition
07:17 autrijus hey Corion
07:18 Corion Hi autrijus ! Good that you remind me - I have to fix some of my tests too so they now use a trailing comma instead of a prefix comma :)
07:18 autrijus :D
07:18 autrijus and drop the silly parens around
07:18 autrijus for %h.kv
07:18 autrijus if $thing.meth
07:18 Corion autrijus: I moved sleep() for Win32 to use threadDelayed() and will write a test that checks that async() and sleep() work well together
07:18 autrijus good. so threadDelayed() work as expected?
07:18 Corion (likely this will mean to move threadDelay() for Unix as well)
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07:19 autrijus "Note that the resolution used by the Haskell runtime system's internal timer is 1/50 second, and threadDelay will round its argument up to the nearest multiple of this resolution."
07:19 autrijus that looks ok
07:19 gaal hi there. ooh, lots of activity.
07:19 autrijus yo gaal.
07:19 autrijus 15:17 < autrijus> examples/hashes/simpleiter.p6 restored to its full glory
07:19 autrijus 15:17 < autrijus> trailing comma, no parens around condition
07:19 Corion autrijus: "as expected" is a bit big. I had to use a magic number of 1000000 to multiply the argument, dunno why - maybe it takes something larger than microseconds.
07:19 autrijus Corion: so, sure, go ahead and move to threadDelayed
07:20 Corion autrijus: I want to write a test first :)
07:20 autrijus hm? it's just microsec
07:20 autrijus go ahead :)
07:20 autrijus I'll test thrDel on unix
07:20 Corion autrijus: Yeah - it took me some "experimenting" to check why my "sleep(1)" didn't seem to work ;)
07:20 gaal there's a small bug in hangman, when you press enter w/o a letter. an unugly solution needs both next and NEXT :)
07:21 autrijus Corion: it's documented as microsecond
07:22 autrijus and a microsecond is 1/1000000th of a sec
07:22 autrijus so that looks sane
07:22 Corion autrijus: Ah. Then I was just tired yesterday ;)
07:22 autrijus op1 "sleep" = boolIO (threadDelay . (* 1000000))
07:22 autrijus I think I'll go with this.
07:22 autrijus (function composition)++
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07:23 autrijus gaal: why NEXT{} ?
07:23 gaal to cls
07:23 Corion autrijus: I have (in Compat.hs) sleep = threadDelay $ (*) 1000000 x
07:23 Corion :)
07:23 Corion ah - I forgot the "x" on the lhs
07:23 Corion autrijus: but yours is more spartanic :)
07:24 autrijus the term is "point-free".
07:24 autrijus or, "pointless".
07:24 Corion :)
07:24 autrijus r1674 has the sleep/threadDelay.
07:24 autrijus tests still (actually more) welcome
07:24 gaal http://www.willamette.edu/~f​ruehr/haskell/evolution.html for anyone who hasn't seen it
07:25 autrijus yeah, it's a classical read :)
07:25 gaal i understand about three or four of those :(
07:25 Corion gaal: I found that yesterday - very nice thing ;)
07:25 autrijus sad thing is that after my dive into GADT I now understand all of them :-/
07:25 Corion gaal: Ah well - it gives you a good chance to see where you stand ;))
07:25 gaal points-free is mentioned there, which is why i was reminded
07:26 Corion autrijus: I pity you - well, not really :) But I like the idea of creating static types to calculate the factorial :)
07:26 gaal yes, it is useful that way. i don't think the author was being (exclusively) silly.
07:26 autrijus maybe we need that for perl6 as well
07:26 autrijus but not factorial ;)
07:26 autrijus need something more exciting
07:26 Corion autrijus: Maybe grep() ? :)
07:27 gaal actually it's more than four that i understand :) but yeah
07:27 gaal web servers :)
07:27 Corion That reminds me - maybe I should devote today to porting (more of) perlrun. Or maybe writing a stupid database for Perl6. Or HTTP::Proxy. So many choices, so little time :(
07:28 Corion gaal: Heh. "use HTTP::Server::Simple; HTTP::Server::Simple->run()"
07:28 Corion Good start and end for a server ;)
07:28 autrijus rumour has it that there will be a JA*H around Austrian/French Perl workshop :)
07:28 gaal use Problem::Halting; Problem::Halting.solve()
07:29 gaal Corion: databases reeeeallly want an abstraction layer.
07:30 gaal there's no tie interface yer, is there?
07:30 autrijus join('',map {chr(any(0..2**32-1))} 0..2**32-1).eval
07:30 Corion gaal: Yes, but I want to toy around a bit with cursors, to see what parts of DBI can be revamped a bit
07:30 gaal berk db is a cool thing to have
07:30 gaal hahaha
07:31 Corion gaal: I'd want a pure Perl SQL DB, so Perl always has a SQL DB, even if it's dead slow :)
07:31 gaal autrijus: in p5, if you run that, you'll get a core dump.
07:31 gaal i mean if you run its moral equivalent.
07:31 gaal that's neat -- but i insist we want it over DBI.
07:32 autrijus Corion: well once theorbtwo finished his hs-plugin diving
07:32 autrijus we can bundle SQLite with pugs
07:32 autrijus I know I want that
07:32 gaal so my riddle is, *why* would that crash on p5?
07:32 Corion gaal: DBI can come later :)
07:32 gaal SQLite++
07:32 autrijus gaal: because it evals "dump" ?
07:32 Corion autrijus: Oooo - that is even better !
07:32 gaal t
07:32 gaal :)
07:32 * gaal wants gtk
07:32 Corion although it goes with the "bloated core" territory. But having SQL built in is good IMO :)
07:33 autrijus I think bundled SQLite is major win
07:33 autrijus it's not that bloated
07:33 autrijus and enables many wonderful uses.
07:33 gaal 30kloc of c
07:33 Corion autrijus: Yep - it's one small C set
07:33 autrijus it's the same idea of how perl5 bundled SDBMFile
07:33 autrijus SQLite is the SDBMFile of our age.
07:33 gaal berk is even faster, btu then you have to choose a version.
07:34 autrijus and you can't sql a berk.
07:34 gaal will yaml be in the core?
07:34 Corion ... and we can't distribute berkleyDB with Pugs, no?
07:34 autrijus there will be no core :D
07:35 Corion autrijus: "no core" means problems for those without a (C) compiler... That's why I started out with a pure Perl DB ...
07:35 autrijus but if there is something like a base sdk or something, I think yaml belongs there
07:35 Alias_ I like the idea of a base SDK
07:35 autrijus Corion: sure, but maybe we ship precompiled sdks too
07:35 autrijus with pbc it may even be sane
07:35 Alias_ The current Perl core is arguably too small
07:35 autrijus but it's handwavy at this point :)
07:35 Corion Alias_: :)
07:35 autrijus and arguably too bloated at the same time.
07:36 Alias_ autrijus: Too bloated for "Core", too small for an SDK
07:36 autrijus exactly.
07:36 * autrijus ponders resurrecting perl6-stdlib@perl.org
07:36 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
07:36 autrijus but I need to work on IType now :)
07:36 gaal it'd be real neat if we had a minip6, like today's tinyperl that fits on a bootable diskette
07:36 Alias_ diskette?
07:36 gaal then again everybody has disk on keys today
07:37 gaal i think it does, Alias_.
07:37 Alias_ floppies will be obsolete by the time Perl 6 comes out
07:37 autrijus sadly pugs is 4M and parrot is 8M.
07:37 Alias_ Not just unused, completely unavailable on most PCs
07:37 Alias_ USB drives are replacing them (finally)
07:37 * gaal hopes so
07:37 gaal but hardware changes slowly
07:37 autrijus brb...
07:38 Alias_ in another year, I predict Dell won't include a floppy by default
07:40 gaal Dell != computers in classrooms all over the world
07:40 gaal There were still Apple ][s in the early 90ies
07:41 gaal it would be sweet to create a learner's dialect for perl6
07:41 gaal i always wanted a "use stricter" mode in p5 to teach newcomers with.
07:41 autrijus like Helium?
07:42 * autrijus likes Helium
07:42 gaal Helium?
07:42 autrijus http://www.cs.uu.nl/helium/
07:42 autrijus like PLT DrScheme but for Haskell
07:42 autrijus excellent learning tool
07:42 gaal hey, i can use that!
07:43 gaal autrijus++
07:46 gaal looks like Hugs so far...
07:49 Khisanth autrijus: perl6 is going to be >= 12MB? :)
07:49 gaal hmmm, actually i'm sorry i raised the subject, this is prollly not something to be worrying about so much now :/
07:50 autrijus Khisanth: but parrot will trivially have a share-vm mode
07:50 autrijus so it will be the same 8MB in memory for arbitary number of processes
07:50 autrijus that's imho good design.
07:52 Khisanth that sounds quite nice
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07:54 Alias_ autrijus: I'm seeing something funny with the M:I install of PPI
07:55 Alias_ autrijus: Check out http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.cpan.testers/194069
07:55 co3 has joined #perl6
07:55 autrijus where's Test/ClassAPI.pm ?
07:55 Alias_ inc
07:56 autrijus and inc/ is not in the path
07:56 autrijus weird.
07:56 Alias_ right
07:56 autrijus this is however 0.05x code :-/
07:56 autrijus so maybe you want to file a bug against cpanplus
07:56 Alias_ 0.05x??
07:56 autrijus <- generally clueless about cpanplus 0.05x
07:57 autrijus does it work with manual maketest
07:57 autrijus without an installed T::CAPI?
07:57 Alias_ not sure
07:57 Alias_ I'm assume that if inc isn't going on the list, quite possibly
07:58 autrijus try duplicating this error, then.
07:58 Alias_ quite possibly doesn't work that is
07:58 autrijus I'm sorry -- my mind is in Tie* right now
07:58 Alias_ oh, ok
07:58 Alias_ The fact that inc doesn't make it over seems like a standalone problem in any case though
07:59 Alias_ What does M:I do normally to ensure it is available
08:00 * Corion has been disenchanted by CPANPLUS
08:01 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1641 (426/4157) | Win2k r1675 (288+2unex/4184)
08:07 slv has joined #perl6
08:07 autrijus can you investigate and kill the 2 unex?
08:08 Alias_ has left "Leaving"
08:08 Alias_ has joined #perl6
08:11 Corion autrijus: Will do
08:14 * autrijus looks at
08:14 autrijus class IArray a where
08:14 autrijus    fetch       :: a -> Int -> Eval Val
08:14 autrijus    store       :: a -> Int -> Val -> Eval ()
08:14 autrijus    fetchSize   :: a -> Eval Int
08:14 autrijus    storeSize   :: a -> Int -> Eval ()
08:14 autrijus and cringes
08:15 autrijus ah the joy of tied magics
08:16 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
08:16 autrijus instance (IArray a, IHash a) => PseudoHash a where ...
08:16 * autrijus grins
08:16 * shapr gives pugs "fastest time from research to real use" sticker
08:16 Corion shapr: 5 years is fast? :))
08:17 shapr I was thinking of GADTs really.
08:17 autrijus shapr probably means GADTs and STM and TH2
08:17 shapr Yes, and STM and TH2
08:17 Corion ah ;)
08:17 Corion I just read yesterday that Control.Concurrent is "experimental" - should that worry me for putting it into Pugs?
08:17 autrijus nope.
08:18 autrijus it means that we have little hope of running Pugs on Hugs.
08:18 autrijus or on NHC.
08:18 autrijus but that's okay, we are doomed anyway
08:18 Corion autrijus: Too bad :)
08:18 shapr doomed?
08:19 Corion Ah - somebody made "undef @array" work - that's one of the unexpected successes
08:19 autrijus that'd be me
08:20 autrijus shapr: doomed to only run on ghc
08:20 Corion autrijus++ # making stuff work
08:20 bsb has joined #perl6
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08:23 shapr oh. that not bad as doom goes.
08:24 shapr At the Haskell Workshop 2003 there was a presentation with the slide "Haskell, defined by GHC?"
08:25 autrijus heh. I like hugs too
08:25 autrijus very embeddable and fast
08:25 autrijus (fast as in compilation)
08:25 shapr The Haskell standard moves slowly, but GHC moves like greased lightning.
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08:26 Corion shapr: Ah we'll see that with Perl6 too. "Perl6, defined by Pugs?" :-)
08:26 rafl has joined #perl6
08:26 Corion But that's better than "Perl6, defined by Haskell?" :-)
08:26 shapr haha
08:26 autrijus lol
08:26 Corion ... which might also happen, if the Haskell community decides to embrace and extend Perl6 development ;-)))
08:26 * shapr saves that quote
08:27 autrijus yeah. it's not yet clear whether Perl 6 will be reimplemented from scratch or translated from pugs.
08:27 autrijus I tend not to worry too much about that.
08:27 slv has left
08:27 Corion autrijus: Perl6 will (have to) use Pugs/Haskell. I mostly wonder if Perl6 will ever move onto Perl6 or always stay with Haskell.
08:27 Corion Having PhDs work on the base language and provide a kickass compiler for Perl6 might be better than having p6p :-)
08:28 Corion ... but having too much lambda in our camel might be detrimental too :)))
08:28 shapr The only worry with the Haskell community is that they'd help you write pugs, then interview everybody about their experience with domain specific languages, and debate the results using terms I've never heard before.
08:29 Corion shapr: As long as I can run the results, who cares? :)
08:29 autrijus Corion: I think p6 will need to move to p6 anyway. the question is
08:29 autrijus is the p6 generated automagically from pugs source
08:29 autrijus or is it rewritten from scratch.
08:30 autrijus (or, 3rd route, generated by having GHC target parrot)
08:30 Corion autrijus: I think it will (have to) start out from a generated source, Pugs/Haskell -> P6.
08:30 autrijus that's what I think too.
08:31 Corion autrijus: "rewritten from scratch" will not happen IMO, at least not quickly. You know Larrys saying "It's easier to port a shell than a shell script" :-)
08:31 autrijus pmichaud is still planning to go that wroute though.
08:31 autrijus last I heard
08:31 autrijus Corion: that's a very acute observation
08:31 autrijus and all too true :)
08:31 * shapr agrees
08:31 Corion autrijus: But nobody will want to hack in Parrot code. At least not something as complex as Perl. That's ugly close to still hacking in C.
08:32 autrijus Corion: sure, but the "from scratch" idea is to write the p6c in p6
08:32 Corion autrijus: I find myself often thinking whether it's better to port the script or the shell :)
08:32 autrijus then use pugs to compile it
08:32 autrijus then use itself to compile it
08:32 Corion autrijus: Ah, yeah. I would write the "compiler"/"converter" in Perl6 of course. But that's because I know Perl6 :)
08:32 Corion Or Perl5, which is close enough anyway.
08:32 autrijus right.
08:33 autrijus except writing a compiler in p5 is exercise in madness.
08:33 autrijus p6 will be much better :)
08:33 Alias_ It's bad enough writing a tokenizer/lexer in P5
08:33 gaal This is the Puissant Perl Compiler, version 6.0
08:33 Corion autrijus: I've written a compiler in Turbo Pascal (4 and/or 6), so I know enough about it :-)
08:34 shapr Writing parsers in Haskell is pleasantly simple.
08:34 Alias_ I like this idea of pluggable bits
08:34 Corion gaal: Naah - this is the Perl Unlimited Golfcourse Supercute
08:34 Alias_ So what if we have p6h doing the P6->Parrot
08:34 Alias_ Someone else can write p6p6 later an do a better job.
08:34 Alias_ And if not... well then we welcome our new lambda overlords
08:35 Corion Alias_: Parrot code is something not to be touched by human hands IMO. At least not for large scale development
08:35 * shapr snickers
08:35 autrijus it's quite pleasant as assembly goes, really.
08:35 Corion lambda (overlords): overlords + 1
08:35 Alias_ "Perl 6 - Connecting Haskell with reality!"
08:35 * shapr laughs
08:36 Corion autrijus: Sure, but developing in (any kind of) assembly language, when you want multisubs, pattern matching on parameters etc. ?
08:36 autrijus o/~ I've been taught assembler / in my second year of school / it's kinda like construction work / with a toothpick for a tool o/~
08:36 shapr haha, where's that from?
08:36 Alias_ Because as far as I can tell, Haskell is a language only a PhD in Maths could love
08:36 Corion autrijus: :)
08:36 autrijus shapr: "eternal flame". you'll *love* it.
08:36 Corion Alias_: I only have a master thesis in math, but I like it, true :)
08:36 shapr I don't have any classes in either math or cs :-(
08:36 Alias_ I'm convinced people just don't naturally think in functional terms
08:37 autrijus right. because of this Alan Turing guy.
08:37 Alias_ imperative yes, exceptions sure...
08:37 Corion Alias_: Ah, you know - "The programmers in functional languages know the value of everything but the cost of nothing"
08:37 autrijus wouldn't be like that if all we have is Church machines
08:37 Alias_ autrijus: I mean when you teach somebody to do something non-computery
08:37 shapr I think that either programming itself is unnatural, or that functional is just is natural as imperative.
08:37 Alias_ autrijus: You provide lists of "do this, then do that" instructions
08:37 Corion Alias_: I think in many ways. I think functional, imperative, but sometimes I also think in the logical way of Prolog.
08:38 Alias_ autrijus: And you say things like "If this happens, then do that"
08:38 autrijus shapr: but the vocabulary is largely set by von neumann and turing
08:38 autrijus in the CS field anyway
08:38 Alias_ Corion: But you have a masters in Maths.... you have trained to think in brain-bendingly different ways
08:38 Corion Alias_: No - not always. Functional is also very useful, or when reasoning about stuff, you never think of the symbol manipulations themselves.
08:38 autrijus Alias_: I think as far as "naturalness" goes, make / prolog is perhaps most intuitive
08:38 autrijus "to do this, I need to to these first"
08:39 Alias_ ugh
08:39 autrijus that is also why SQL is popular.
08:39 autrijus since you don't need to tell it how to do things.
08:39 Corion like "father(X,Y) :- child(Y,X), male(X)"
08:40 Alias_ autrijus: That's not a good way to teach
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08:40 Corion also, for stuff that has no direction of data flow and is merely a collection of facts you can query (like Prolog and SQL), imperative and functional programming are ugly.
08:40 Alias_ autrijus: I'd argue that's more a case of "If you want to do Foo, check that Bar"
08:40 autrijus Corion: I think you'll like Curry. I'm fascinated by Curry
08:40 autrijus Alias_: sure
08:40 Alias_ Because Bar isn't done... they have to do Bar naturally... but they don't think that way
08:40 Corion Alias_: But that's an incredibly convoluted way to declare things.
08:40 Alias_ Corion: That's how most people think
08:40 shapr For me at least, I found functional programming mostly by myself while using Python. I started writing my Python code such that it had no side-effects, only one return point, and I realized I wanted to do more like that.
08:40 Alias_ Every given somebody directions?
08:41 Corion Alias_: But that's not how I want to tell people stuff. Programming is like telling people stuff. And I want to tell them how it is and how it should be in the end, and not care about what they do in the middle.
08:41 Alias_ "Do this, do that, do the other. Keep going for a while. When you see foo, turn right
08:41 shapr A friend of mine saw some of my Python code and said something like "You must like Haskell" and I said "What's that?"
08:41 Alias_ Corion: That doesn't really scale
08:41 autrijus Corion: http://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/~curry/examples/ # grep for "logic"
08:42 Corion Alias_: "Here is the map. You are here. Go there. Goodbye."
08:42 Alias_ Corion: Big business and governments have procedure manuals and governance and so on
08:42 Alias_ Corion: Who knows what might happen if you did that. Most will go the right way, some will go the wrong way. Someone will get lost in the bush and need rescuing
08:42 autrijus ...but they also have Laws and laws are logic programs.
08:42 Alias_ autrijus: There's a reason nobody understands the law either
08:42 Corion Alias_: I know. I do these. That's why I hate hate hate that. Because they want the stuff described in little detail while even the people doing the stuff have implicit dependencies in their lists, and the implicit dependencies make sense.
08:43 autrijus Alias_: you think people understand procedure manuals? :D
08:43 Corion err - s!little detail!very detailed!
08:43 Alias_ autrijus: Yes, because they give simple steps. McDonalds would collapse if they couldn't :)
08:43 Corion Procedure manuals are for the auditors and nobody else.
08:43 autrijus oh. they follow them just fine.
08:43 autrijus but _understand_.
08:43 Alias_ autrijus: Does your CPU need to understand?
08:44 autrijus Alias_: we are coders not CPUs.
08:44 Corion Alias_: I don't want to speak to my CPU
08:44 Alias_ Anyways
08:44 autrijus as coders we need to understand what we're writing :)
08:44 Alias_ The closer to normal human ways a language is, the easier it is to understand, and thus write
08:44 autrijus Alias_: I agree.
08:45 autrijus and normal human language is a mess
08:45 * shapr laughs
08:45 Alias_ not language, "ways" of thinking
08:45 autrijus mixed with imperative, logic, functional, data-driven ways.
08:45 shapr We should use COBOL then.
08:45 autrijus just see #perl6 log for the evidence :D
08:45 Alias_ shapr: I've actually been wondering if a COBOL -> Parrot compiler would be a good idea
08:45 Alias_ Might let big old things run on new gear
08:45 Alias_ COBOL with access to CPAN, imagine it!
08:45 autrijus this "natural language is a mess, programming language needs to be like that" is raison d'etre of perl :)
08:47 autrijus ...and that's also why english is more popular than lojban, and perl more popular than haskell.
08:47 shapr xu do tavla mi fo la lojban
08:47 autrijus (I do like lojban better, so that is not meant as an insult)
08:47 Corion lojban ?
08:47 autrijus Corion: the least broken of human languages
08:48 Alias_ s/broken/human/ ???
08:48 autrijus # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
08:48 Corion autrijus: Ah. Something like Esperanto, then ...
08:48 shapr mi djica lenu gunka prali mi
08:48 autrijus no, esperanto is common lisp :D
08:49 Corion autrijus: :)))
08:49 autrijus from the wikipedia article about lojban: "It has no irregularities or ambiguities in spelling or grammar"
08:49 Corion autrijus: I guess the only way to promote it would be to write a text adventure/MUD for it :)
08:49 shapr lambdabot had lojban support for awhile.
08:49 Corion ... but at least one could do NLP there then
08:50 Corion Ah. I should write an irc bot in Perl6 :) But we don't have coroutines yet, do we ?
08:50 autrijus oh wow. http://jbo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralju_papri
08:50 autrijus Corion: we have async{}
08:50 autrijus you want shared mvar?
08:50 autrijus or do you just want lazy gather/take?
08:51 shapr lojban is pretty simple, it's a small language with a simple and regular structure. I wouldn't say that it's unambiguous, but it does have some neat concepts to teach.
08:51 Alias_ So basically, Lojban has no evolutionary adaptiveness at all? :)
08:51 Corion autrijus: Yep, but I want-need to do synchronized stuff, and async{} has no way of resynchronizing :)
08:51 Alias_ Like loglan?
08:51 autrijus Corion: try writing some pseudocode, commit them in examples/, and we'll see about it :)
08:51 shapr loglan was the original, but James Cooke Brown was the dictator of that community, so the lojban people split off into their own community.
08:52 autrijus Corion: also try to find out how coro is meant to happen in p6.
08:52 Corion autrijus: I have such pseudo code, I only need to convert it to p6 :)
08:52 autrijus but if not specced, use Coro.pm as entry
08:52 shapr loglan never really got anywhere, lojban really did.
08:52 autrijus cogood. do so :)
08:52 Corion autrijus: Ah, yeah. I'll orient myself at Coro to do so :)
08:52 Alias_ shapr: Still... the problem with designing a language is that you don't much chance to evolve. You just tend to die out
08:53 Alias_ I like Perl in that sense. Because you can do the big things different ways, you get a nice Darwin tick of approval
08:53 shapr lojban had a static structure for five years so people could learn it, then they went evolutionary.
08:53 Alias_ So there are dialects?
08:54 shapr James Cooke Brown started on loglan in ... the late 1950s or the late 1960s? I forget exactly when.
08:55 Alias_ Q: How many Lojbanists does it take to change a broken light bulb?
08:55 Alias_ A: Two: one to decide what to change it into, and one to figure out what kind of bulb emits broken light.
08:55 * shapr snickers
08:55 shapr Anyway, part of my motivation for learning Haskell was to write a compiler for lojban.
08:56 shapr lojban has a yacc grammar.
08:56 Corion shapr: Ewww. :)
08:56 Corion shapr: But then, I got into Perl because I wanted to replace a shell script that created a website index with something faster. :)
08:56 shapr In the meantime I've decided that's totally the wrong way to get a spoken programming language.
08:56 Corion ... the reasons that drive us to go into the directions we do...
08:57 Corion shapr: Ah, but you don't need a spoken programming language other than "Kill All Humans".
08:57 shapr At this partcular junction, I'd rather write more on pugs.
08:58 * shapr looks at the smoke tests
08:58 Alias_ Corion: And possibly, "You will be assimalated/recycled"
08:59 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1641 (426/4157) | Win2k r1678 (287/4185)
08:59 Alias_ I like the idea that while English has lasted 1000ish years, Loglan lasted, what, 30?
08:59 Corion Oook
09:00 shapr Oook? Oook!
09:00 * Alias_ imagines lojban rap
09:01 shapr I would argue that English hasn't really lasted that long. Can you read the original Chaucer?
09:01 shapr Corion: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html
09:02 Corion shapr: See Acme::Ook at http://search.cpan.org/~jhi/A​cme-Ook-0.10/lib/Acme/Ook.pm - written by Jarkko Hietaniemi, master librarian of Perl :)
09:02 Alias_ shapr: I can probably make a pretty good stab at it
09:03 autrijus hrm, a metalanguage can last longer than its specific implementations.
09:03 Corion autrijus: Lisp 4 life, dawg!
09:03 autrijus exactly.
09:03 Alias_ It's all evolution
09:04 autrijus I was thinking about the common Han ideograph interface
09:04 autrijus all spoken language at its invention time (some 3000~4000 years ago) has died
09:04 autrijus yet we can read all their books
09:04 Corion ... a bit larger perspective than Lisp, true :)
09:04 shapr hm, that's nifty
09:04 autrijus that also enables me to read japanese books and vice versa
09:05 autrijus despite that fact that the grammar structure and pronounciations are completely different.
09:05 Corion BTW, on Win32, there is still a segfault ...
09:05 autrijus lisp 4 life indeed
09:05 autrijus (or *gasp* xml for life)
09:05 Corion autrijus: ASCII 4 life ! :)
09:05 Corion \o/
09:06 Alias_ autrijus: Yes, I find the separation of written and spoken languages to be quite novel
09:06 autrijus $ grep -B 3 stay src/UTF8.lhs
09:06 autrijus         / |  __  ___  __ __
09:06 autrijus        / ^| //  /__/ // //
09:06 autrijus       /.==| \\ //_  // //
09:06 autrijus It's  //  || // \_/_//_//_  and it's here to stay!
09:07 clkao orz
09:07 Alias_ autrijus: Although admittedly I understand far less of the details than I would like to
09:07 autrijus Alias_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanzi
09:07 Alias_ autrijus: That invokes a time exception
09:07 Alias_ ENOTIME
09:07 autrijus too bad.
09:08 shapr So you think ascii is the next Han ideograph?
09:08 Alias_ autrijus: Also, I simply lack the overwhelmingly current use for the knowledge
09:08 Alias_ autrijus: I tend to be very driven by practical goals
09:13 autrijus shapr: no, Unicode it is
09:13 * autrijus forsees 64bit unicode for the entire sentient galaxy
09:16 Alias_ Yeah right, like you can encode the electrosmell communication of the low gravity gassbag cows of Zeta 14 in your primitive visual encoding medium
09:17 autrijus say, would you prefer "AV.fetch" or "IArray.fetch" ?
09:17 bsb has left
09:17 autrijus I wonder whether I should call them AV/HV/SV/CV/GV
09:17 autrijus or IArray/IHash/IScalar/ICode/IHandle
09:18 Alias_ I prefer the legible version
09:19 autrijus I'll make it so then
09:19 Alias_ How anyone manages to learn XS given those horrible names is a mystery to me
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09:32 Corion Alias_: It's an acquired taste I think :)
09:34 Corion ... but then, I hack on XS like I hack on Pugs, except that XS gives me more segfaults.
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09:43 autrijus IType first cut landed
09:43 autrijus dinner &
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10:46 shapr hiya Ovid
10:46 Ovid Hi there.
10:46 theorbtwo Allo, Ovid.
10:46 shapr Ovid: I think you're right about Rob. I continued the discussion in private email and the conclusion was the same.
10:47 Ovid It's kind of sad.  He seems really bright, but he has some blocks.
10:47 * castaway waves at Ovidius.
10:47 Ovid Though I confess that was a little harsh with him.
10:47 Ovid Hi castaway.
10:48 shapr From later discussions with him, I think you weren't harsh.
10:48 castaway (and the rest)
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10:49 rindolf Hi all!
10:49 shapr hiya shlomi
10:49 rindolf Can anyone explain to me what Perl 6 Class Roles are?
10:49 rindolf shapr: hi.
10:49 * shapr goes unicycling
10:49 elmex interfaces?
10:50 rindolf elmex: you mean like interfaces in Java.
10:50 * rindolf opens the latest Apocalypse
10:50 elmex rindolf: no
10:50 castaway its the "can do" relationship..
10:50 elmex rindolf: like interfaces in Perl6
10:50 castaway (iirc)
10:50 Corion has joined #perl6
10:51 metaperl rindolf, chromatic's CPAN module has some good links on Role-based oop
10:52 Ovid I have to confess, when I read through his "extremeperl" web site, I had a few good laughs.  My favorite was when he wrote "Do the simplest thing that could possibly work (DTSTTCPW) means you implement the first idea that comes to mind."
10:52 metaperl the idea is to separate a superclass's roles as instance factory and re-use mechanism
10:52 metaperl no, that makes sense to me Ovid
10:52 castaway Hmm, no, thats just the simplest thing that occurs to you at the time.. ,)
10:52 metaperl just dive in... top-down
10:52 Ovid rindolf:  read Class::Traits and you'll understand.
10:53 Ovid metaperl:  it makes no sense because it's wrong.
10:53 castaway I often do that, and come back later with a better view of the project, and redo parts that suddenly make sense another way
10:53 osfameron_ the simplest thing that could possibly work isn't always the most obvious
10:53 metaperl pastebot?
10:53 metaperl paste?
10:53 osfameron_ for example, I saw the example of implement fn sqr()
10:53 osfameron_ for value 0 or 1, the simplest thing that would work is to return the input unchanged
10:54 osfameron_ it's only from 2+ that your tests fail and you'd have
10:54 osfameron_ to actually implement input*input
10:54 Ovid Actually, the first thing that occurs to me when I face a problem is often something quite complex that covers various contigencies. I have to remind myself to keep things simple.
10:54 rindolf Ovid: not Class::Roles ?
10:54 metaperl Ovid, do you mind critiquing a question of mine to the template toolkit list? Here it is: http://rafb.net/paste/results/CXwCjP91.html
10:54 castaway indeed, Ovid
10:54 Ovid No.  Trying to remember, but "traits" was a term already used in Perl6, so they had to be renamed roles.
10:56 Ovid metaperl:  first, a confession:  I came home a bit tipsy, so I'm tipsy now.  However, your question seems somewhat reasonable, but as far as I know, TT is not going to handle a stream.
10:57 metaperl I hope to God it does... no... it needs to create a stream of XML output... Mason can do it...
10:57 metaperl I realydont want to use Mason
10:57 Corion Ovid: Being drunk on irc is common courtesy
10:57 Ovid I've not tried to use TT that way.
10:58 Ovid Corion:  yeah, I figured this wasn't too unusual :)
10:58 Ovid metaperl:  I don't blame you.  I know Mason, but I prefer TT myself.
10:59 metaperl Bricolage is written Mason right?
10:59 metaperl Ovid, do you telelcommute to work at Kineticode? Arent you in AZ and isn't David Wheeler in San Francisco?
11:00 Ovid No.  Mason is merely one of the "burners" Bricolage can write to.  We have a TT output channel, too.  And actually, I live in Portland and -- by an odd coincidence -- David a few blocks away.
11:01 Ovid Correction, we have a TT "burner", too.
11:01 Ovid Bleh.  My grammar sucks right now.
11:03 metaperl Ovid, you know we have a CGI::Prototype mailing list? with GMANE feed
11:04 Ovid Nope.  I just unsubscribed to a couple of lists because I'm on too many as is.
11:05 metaperl hey you live in the same town as merlyn? wow
11:06 metaperl wonder they haven't renamed in Randalville
11:06 Ovid Yeah.  And just to up the ante, my roommate is Schwern :)
11:07 theorbtwo Ah, but you are the most famous of them: Ovid, world-renowned crime-fighter.
11:07 Ovid They're better at Perl, though.  That pays more in the long run.
11:08 metaperl Ovid, are you serious? Are you a college student? and Schwern is too?
11:08 Ovid Nope.  Not a college student.  Neither is Schwern.
11:09 metaperl you mean Schwern works at Kineticode too?
11:09 Ovid No.  He's just my roommate.
11:09 Corion metaperl: When two men share a room, it's not always that they work together.
11:10 castaway (or do other things ,)
11:10 Corion castaway: Whatever your dirty imagination suggests ;)
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11:11 * castaway attempts to look innocent.
11:11 castaway Ovid, YAPC?
11:11 Ovid No, no.  It's a two-bedroom apartment :)
11:12 Corion Hmmm. Should Perl6 have eigenstates() ? How else do I get at all the instances of a junction?
11:12 Ovid castaway:  Schwern might go.  I've got a tight schedule with my 20 year high school reunion and I'm debating if I should go.
11:12 theorbtwo IIRC, .states, something like that.
11:12 Corion theorbtwo: Ah
11:13 Corion (except that object methods aren't in yet :) )
11:13 Corion I'm thinking of creating a nice "real world" example by doing the "expand 1-10 to 1,2,3,4...,10" thing with junctions
11:14 Corion That is, parse a glob spec into junctions, and then output the eigenstates of the junctions.
11:15 Corion & # shopping
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11:31 metaperl http://www.metaperl.com/talks/p6-fp-slurpy/
11:31 metaperl "Slurpy Sub Parms, Multi Subs and Perl 6 Functional Programming" --- my upcoming Perl Mongers presentation
11:36 * metaperl hits the sack
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12:03 kbrooks hey
12:03 kbrooks :)
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13:08 stevan autrijus: I refacted out another hack in CGI,.. to use the s:perl5:g//{}/
13:08 kbrooks wtf
13:08 stevan autrijus: I also looked at kv.t last night,.. you were talking about Pairs doing the [[a, 1]] stuff right? because it looked like hashes were coded correctly
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13:36 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1682 (281/4184) | Win2k r1678 (287/4185)
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13:59 autrijus yo!
13:59 autrijus stevan: I refactored your refactoring
13:59 autrijus it now reads
13:59 autrijus    $encoded ~~ s:perl5:g/([^-.\w ])/\%$dec2hex(ord($1))/;
13:59 autrijus which imho is even more readable :)
14:00 autrijus hrm, junction states is .values
14:00 autrijus not .states
14:00 * autrijus backlogeth
14:01 castaway afternoon autrijus
14:01 theorbtwo Mornin, autrijus.
14:02 autrijus heya castaway.
14:02 masak hello autrijus
14:02 autrijus I wonder if anyone will want reduce() implemented.
14:02 Corion has joined #perl6
14:02 * autrijus is still hacking on the IType stuff... looking good
14:02 autrijus Corion: $junction.values works now iirc
14:02 theorbtwo Oh, 6 hours later.  Evenin', autrijus.  Afternoon, Corion.
14:02 Corion autrijus: Yay! :)
14:02 castaway you were going to give theorbtwo a hand
14:02 theorbtwo Who was?
14:02 Corion Me ?
14:02 theorbtwo And with what?
14:03 * castaway pints at autrijus
14:03 Corion (I wouldn't know what and how)
14:03 Corion but junction.values() working means I can/have to rework some of my tests!
14:03 Corion Yay! :)
14:04 Corion BTW, I haven't seen any "licensing" issue discussed here, but I assume all stuff is dual-licensed, corresponding to the dual nature of Pugs/P6, right? Or at least BSD licensed - I don't care about any other license :)
14:04 autrijus so far yes.
14:04 autrijus it's either Artistic2/GPL, or BSD.
14:04 theorbtwo It's dual Artistic/GPL.
14:05 autrijus and Artistic2 is compatible with Artistic1 as far as I understand
14:05 theorbtwo It's the top half of README.
14:05 Corion That's cool (all my code is BSD-licensed anyway, and I assume that all contributors to Perl handle it the same)
14:05 * castaway read that as "top shelf" ;)
14:05 Corion theorbtwo: Bah - who reads the README anyway? :))
14:05 castaway people who want to know such things
14:05 autrijus but with theorbtwo's work, we may or may not include hs-plugins which is LGPL.
14:05 * theorbtwo , apparently.
14:05 castaway oh! my ghc compile finished!
14:05 autrijus but I think it's safer to list it as an optional external dependency.
14:05 castaway (it only took about 8 hours
14:06 autrijus (esp. before its building problems are resolved for more platforms)
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14:06 Corion autrijus: Ah, LGPL is OK too, or rather, OK for the moment. I saw what I think is a delayed April Fools' joke on /. regarding the GPLv3 that requires all GPL users to pay money to Stallman
14:06 autrijus oh. we explicitly use GPLv2.
14:06 autrijus none of the "or above" clause.
14:06 autrijus so v3 will not apply.
14:07 Corion autrijus++
14:07 autrijus =)
14:07 Corion (it would kill all secret use of open source software at my place for sure)
14:08 autrijus I can see the use of that.
14:08 autrijus but I don't see it suitable to Pugs.
14:08 theorbtwo There's more stupid GPL3 reporting on /. today, BTW.
14:08 theorbtwo I'm not sure how much is /. distorting and how much is the FSF being stupid, though.
14:09 autrijus both at MAXINT.
14:09 theorbtwo Quite possibly.
14:09 autrijus oh btw, can someone check if asavige's slice test on p6c is made into t/?
14:09 Corion theorbtwo: I still think it's an April Fools Joke, either 8 days late or 357 days early.
14:09 autrijus I'm going to check in IType tonight, so the more tests for corner cases, the better
14:10 Corion But I can see how it irks Stallman to see companies profiting from GPL software.
14:10 autrijus (basically it's a rewrite of most things in AST.hs)
14:10 Odin-LAP Uh. Is the GPLv3 out, or..?
14:10 * autrijus praises a certain strong typing system for making complete rewrites trivial
14:10 Corion Odin-LAP: No, only stupid FUD discussion of it on slashdot, News For Nerds, News that have reported elsewhere already.
14:10 Odin-LAP (Slashdot, of course, is plain stupid.)
14:10 Odin-LAP Aight.
14:11 autrijus in concrete terms, it means that %ENV{FOO} = 'bar' will Actually Work.
14:11 Corion autrijus++ # %ENV<FOO> = 'bar'
14:11 * castaway slaps gentoo. (the subversion package cant be found by searching for "svn")
14:11 Corion autrijus: now or tomorrow?
14:11 autrijus <FOO>. right.
14:11 autrijus Corion: tonight :)
14:11 * autrijus is still haxx0ring
14:11 Corion autrijus: "tonight" by you means in the next 8 hours, correct?
14:11 autrijus 5 hours, more likely
14:11 autrijus as it is past 10pm here
14:12 * Corion should get XWorld or something like that, and combine it with an irc plugin so he has an easy overview over where everybody is :)
14:12 Corion (together with, say, GeoIP :)
14:12 theorbtwo Corion: Steal code from http://desert-island.dynodns.net/perl/pmplanet.pl
14:12 mouns has left "<Oo> Parti Away - Retour Tardif <oO>"
14:13 theorbtwo You might want to change the projection, though, considering the sort of audiance we get around here.
14:13 Corion theorbtwo: Yes :) It'll still need to be "fed" (via http requests?) from chatzilla and/or a bot I have to write, and I'd like the display to use OpenGL, but other than that, that's already it :)
14:13 Corion #perl6 is All Pugs, All The Time. :)
14:14 theorbtwo I'm not sure opengl is quite applicable.
14:14 Corion BTW, I think I have worked out (on paper) how I'd like coroutines to behave, both in implementation and in syntax. But I need to do some sample code to see how well it works out :)
14:15 Corion theorbtwo: How not? I've done OpenGL from Perl (5 though)
14:15 * castaway slaps the CNN voice over person "King & Queen are just departing .. " stupid man
14:15 theorbtwo To render to a PNG or JPEG?
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14:16 Corion theorbtwo: Ah, I just want it on my desktop :)
14:16 theorbtwo Oh.
14:16 theorbtwo xplanet is still good for you -- it uses GL when it renders to a display.
14:16 * theorbtwo ponders again integrating pmplanet with google maps somehow.
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14:19 theorbtwo Hm, possibly make the name a link to the homenode on the LHS and google maps on the RHS.
14:20 * theorbtwo ponders making a graphviz graph of the british royal family and donating it to wikipedia.
14:23 Corion Hmm. $_.states() doesn't seem to work, or maybe I'm doing it wrong.
14:23 autrijus .values
14:23 autrijus not .states
14:24 Corion D'oh
14:24 theorbtwo Corion: Don't put too much trust in my memory of details.
14:24 Corion And say($junction) doesn't quote the juncted stuff, if it's a string :)
14:24 * theorbtwo can't detail what he ate for dinner.
14:25 Corion $_.values() gives me pugs: Cannot cast into VSub: VList []
14:25 autrijus quote?
14:25 autrijus pugs> say(any(1,2,3).values)
14:25 autrijus 123
14:25 autrijus oh bah. parsefail
14:25 autrijus fixing
14:25 autrijus (.values different from .values())
14:26 Corion say(any('-foo', '-e1')) gives unquoted strings
14:26 autrijus why should it quote?
14:26 autrijus am I missing something/
14:26 autrijus ?
14:27 Corion autrijus: D'oh - I was thinking like Data::Dumper, where I should have been thinking like print $/;
14:28 Corion ... I should shut up and code instead
14:28 autark-jp my $b = any(1..10).values(); $b[9]
14:28 autark-jp what kind of variable is $b?
14:29 autrijus data dumper is .perl
14:30 autrijus autark-jp: it is currently a variable holding a list
14:30 autrijus it will soon become a Scalar variable holding a reference to an array.
14:30 autrijus or rather, Array.
14:32 autark-jp ah
14:32 Corion Bah. my @examples = map { $_ } (@ex); # doesn't work
14:32 Corion for @ex -> $e { push @examples, $e; }; # works
14:32 autrijus right. that's a known parsefail.
14:32 autrijus you want either
14:32 autrijus my @exa = @ex.map:{$_}
14:32 autrijus or
14:33 autrijus my @exa = map {$_}, @ex;
14:33 autrijus sorry for the inconvenience.
14:37 Corion Oh. And joined junctions seem to need recursive unwrapping - is that by design ? pugs -e "my @e=map{$_.values()},(any<a b>~','~any<c d>); say +@e" # gives 2 ?instead of? 4
14:39 autrijus say((any<a b>) ~ (any<c d>))
14:39 autrijus is 4 values
14:40 autrijus I know
14:40 autrijus any<a b>~','
14:40 autrijus is parsed as
14:40 autrijus any(<a b>~',')
14:40 autrijus which is I think correct.
14:40 autrijus so you need to be less cute and use
14:40 autrijus any(<a b>)
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14:51 metaperl oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos
14:51 theorbtwo That's some very open source.
14:51 cwest has joined #perl6
14:52 metaperl lol
14:52 metaperl it's very odd
14:52 metaperl my laptop keyboard sticks on the o key when the machine comes out of sleep and on reboot
14:52 theorbtwo odd.
14:52 metaperl all the time... and I dont put down the monitor on the keypad (no physical pressure whatsoever)
14:53 autrijus yay!
14:53 metaperl here are the slides to my upcoming perl mongers talk on p6 slurpy list parms: http://www.metaperl.com/talks/p6-fp-slurpy/
14:53 autrijus * `map { ... } @list` now correctly parsed.
14:53 autrijus r1687, enjoy.
14:53 theorbtwo Cool, autrijus.
14:54 autrijus metaperl: "When are slurpy list parameters useful?"
14:54 Corion autrijus: Gah. Just when I commit my changed tests, you make me update them again ? :))))
14:54 autrijus metaperl: "everybody in perl65 uses a slurpy *@_"
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14:54 autrijus Corion: that's called Progress
14:54 cognominal pugs> print ord '\n'
14:54 cognominal 92bool::true
14:54 autrijus s/perl65/perl5/
14:54 cognominal this is odd
14:54 autrijus Corion: not so; it prints 92, then returns true
14:54 cognominal or do I miss something?
14:54 autrijus err
14:54 autrijus s/corion/cogniminal/
14:54 Corion \\ has the ord 92
14:54 Corion :)
14:55 autrijus right.
14:55 autrijus pugs> ord "\n"
14:55 autrijus 10
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14:55 metaperl well, that wont be the way to use it in p6....
14:55 autrijus so it seems that you are saying
14:55 autrijus "When are slurpy _scalar_ parameters useful?"
14:55 autrijus in which case I largely agree.
14:56 cognominal oops. thx. I deal with too many languages. I am terminally confused
14:56 metaperl ah.... ok
14:56 autrijus I wonder which language allows you to write '\n' :)
14:56 * Corion refrains from running perl -i.bak -pe "s!(?<map\{.*?}),!!" :)
14:56 autrijus why not? :D
14:56 theorbtwo '\n' would work in C, and probably Haskell.
14:57 Odin-LAP Single quotes don't interpolate in Perl, of course.
14:57 theorbtwo (Of course, it's not the same as "\n" in either of those languages.)
14:57 Odin-LAP Which is the problem here. :D
14:57 autrijus oh. right.
14:58 Corion autrijus: Because I think that other (test) authors should do it themselves, to see what new features are available.
14:58 Corion :)
14:58 Corion Hmm. Maybe I should still be evil :)
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15:09 ninereasons autrijus, didn't I read somewhere that  `map { ... } @list` will now be written as `map { ... }, @list` #(comma) ?
15:09 autrijus ninereasons: no.
15:09 autrijus map 123, @list;
15:09 autrijus will now be written as
15:10 autrijus map {123} @list
15:10 autrijus or
15:10 autrijus map {123}, @list;
15:10 ninereasons ah..
15:10 autrijus i.e. autothunking is verboten
15:10 autrijus but the comma is still optional after block
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15:10 theorbtwo s/still/now/, I think.
15:10 ninereasons that was it.
15:11 autrijus theorbtwo: well, in perl5 it is optional.
15:11 autrijus as long as you have & in your prototype.
15:11 theorbtwo No, in perl 5 there are two forms of map, one with a comma, one without.
15:11 theorbtwo In perl 6, there is one form, with an optional comma.
15:11 autrijus you are correct.
15:11 autrijus hrm.
15:11 autrijus map -> $x { $x } 1,2,3;
15:11 autrijus this is okay (and works in pugs)
15:12 autrijus what about a proper sub?
15:12 autrijus map sub ($x) { $x } 1,2,3;
15:12 ninereasons that last one is very perlish looking
15:12 theorbtwo map wasn't fully unified with other functions with a prototype beginning &.
15:12 autrijus it now works but should it?
15:12 autrijus i.e. should commaless blocks extend to subs?
15:12 theorbtwo AFAIK, sub ($x) {$x} should work everwhere -> $x {$x} does.
15:12 autrijus or just pointy and bare?
15:12 autrijus alright. I'll keep it so.
15:13 cognominal pugs> loop { print "."; }
15:13 cognominal pugs: src/Eval.hs:292:12-41: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern [pre, cond, post, body]
15:14 autrijus ooh irrefutable.
15:14 * autrijus fixes
15:14 theorbtwo .oO(I've got your irrefutable /right here/!  To the moon, baby, to the moon!)
15:15 * cognominal needs to learn svk or subversion. so far he has pulled plugs using wget -np -mk
15:15 castaway plugs? ;)
15:15 cognominal pugs!
15:15 Corion cognominal: :) svn up http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
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15:16 theorbtwo plugs is something else (under CVS, not SVK).
15:16 Corion Or whatever the first incantation is. Possibly svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ ~/pugs/
15:16 cognominal I hope by the end of the we, I will have a pentomino solver coded in perl6
15:16 theorbtwo svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/
15:16 cognominal pentoninos are my hello world.
15:17 Odin-LAP Will put it in a directory pugs/ under the current one, IIRC?
15:17 theorbtwo Correct, Odin.
15:17 cognominal even won a TPJ obfuscation contest with a pentomino solver
15:17 * theorbtwo wonders what the LAP is for.
15:17 Odin-LAP Laptop.
15:17 theorbtwo Ah.
15:17 castaway original.
15:18 Odin-LAP castaway: So very, don't you think? ;p
15:18 autrijus cognominal: loop{...} fixed. thx
15:19 cognominal can you give me direction on how to understand Parser.hs. I am familiar with Parse::Yapp and Parse::RecDescent
15:20 autrijus sure
15:20 autrijus read http://www.cs.uu.nl/~daan/parsec.html
15:20 autrijus download that 2.0
15:20 autrijus read the examples in it
15:21 cognominal btw I am reading about monads right now
15:21 cognominal thx
15:21 autrijus you don't quite need to grok monads to use parsec.
15:21 metaperl actually the examples are flawed
15:21 autrijus parsec is da bomb :)
15:21 metaperl they import Parsec
15:21 metaperl but for ghc you need to import Text.Parser.Combinators or something like that
15:22 cognominal so you adpated parsec for pugs?
15:22 metaperl I emailed daan about that and he said he would look at it but he pointed me to the fact that the examples are part of GHC as well
15:22 autrijus part of GHC srcdist.
15:22 metaperl no, Parsec ships with GHC. and Pugs is written using GHC
15:22 autrijus not part of GHC bindist
15:22 cognominal I see a mention in Rule.hs
15:22 autrijus yes, I adapted parsec for pugs.
15:22 autrijus mainly to add things that p6 needs but parsec does not have in Expr
15:22 autrijus as well as prepare for making it into Eval monad.
15:23 autrijus i.e. evaluating-while-parsing
15:23 autrijus or, in fancier term
15:23 cognominal I like very much that the eval of pugs does not close of my lexicals
15:23 autrijus generating-parrot-assembly-an​d-loading-them-while-parsing
15:23 cognominal I always hated perldb for that
15:23 metaperl oh, you did? adapted or adopted? oh you _did_ adapt it
15:23 autrijus thank lightstep for that.
15:23 cognominal I even wrote an RGC
15:23 cognominal I mean a RFC
15:24 autrijus he tweaked the evaluator
15:24 autrijus I think I can derive a continuation instance from that
15:24 autrijus so the next line picks up the last line's continuation
15:24 autrijus including the lexical pad etc.
15:25 autrijus bbiab :)
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16:17 metaperl do any of you know of any low-cost hosting solutions
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16:19 elmex are continuations fast?
16:20 metaperl elmex, you might get more feedback on #haskell
16:21 elmex thats not a haskell thingie ;) thats a generic thing i guess
16:21 metaperl more people know about continuations there than here
16:22 elmex ;)
16:23 elmex but what is perl going to do with them?
16:23 elmex s/erl/erl 6/
16:25 Corion elmex: Write interesting webservers, for example, and cooperative multithreading
16:26 Corion Hah. +10 unexpected successes. Whatever magic autrijus did :) Time to promote some tests it seems ;)
16:31 elmex muha
16:34 Corion Oh. The +10 unexpected successes are due to me botching a test :(
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17:01 autrijus rehi.
17:02 autrijus continuation is basically a pointer modification and a goto.
17:02 autrijus so, extremely fast.
17:05 ninereasons autrijus, did you note from the logs that "say $_" doesn't quite work, yet?
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17:05 autrijus no.
17:05 ninereasons "say" # implicit $_, rather
17:05 autrijus how so?
17:05 autrijus pugs> $_ = 3; say
17:05 autrijus 3
17:05 ninereasons see t/var/default_scalar.t
17:06 autrijus oh. yeah.
17:08 ninereasons I wonder whether `for @arr { say "$^f $^b" } will turn out to be more popular than `for @arr -> $f,$b { say "$f $b"}`
17:10 metaperl ninereasons: that first expression confuses me
17:10 metaperl what are the "^"s doing?
17:10 rgs implicit parameter binding
17:10 ninereasons they are sort of like autovivified scalars
17:11 rgs like $a and $b in perl 5's sort
17:11 metaperl are you slurping the elements of @arr in by 2s?
17:11 ninereasons yes
17:11 ninereasons it's almost identical to the second one
17:11 ninereasons "almost"
17:11 metaperl could you slurp by 3s by adding anther $^variable?
17:11 metaperl which SYNOPSIS discusses this?
17:12 ninereasons but you'll end up with an error, if the array is "even"
17:12 metaperl Perl5 has most of Perl 6 in modules with better edge cases
17:12 metaperl List::MOreUtils::natatime() does that
17:12 metaperl and handles uneven amounts gracefully
17:13 ninereasons so, perhaps pugs should too
17:13 ninereasons ?
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17:14 * metaperl goes sunbathing
17:19 metaperl too cold for sunbathing, back in I go!
17:21 autrijus IType added.
17:21 autrijus now, do I commit or not
17:21 * autrijus "make test" just to make sure
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17:26 cognominal pugs> for  qw( 1 2 3 )  { next if $_ == 2;  print $_; }
17:26 cognominal *** Error: No compatible subroutine found: &if
17:26 cognominal  at App "&if" (App "&infix:==" (Var "$_",
17:26 cognominal                                 2))
17:27 cognominal I think this is correct perl6
17:27 justatheory has joined #perl6
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17:27 autrijus it is. nullary parsing is borken.
17:27 autrijus need to write next()
17:28 cognominal ok for me
17:28 ninereasons my @z = ( [ 'a1', 'a2' ], [ 'b1', 'b2', 'b3' ]);
17:28 ninereasons my %a = map { @^foo[0] => @^foo } @z ;
17:28 ninereasons cool
17:29 ninereasons {'a1' => ('a1', 'a2'), 'b1' => ('b1', 'b2', 'b3')}
17:29 autrijus I've done ITypes refactoring
17:29 autrijus but not the casts between them
17:29 autrijus hence, 100% of the tests are broken.
17:30 autrijus I wonder if I should commit ;)
17:30 * autrijus ponders deliberately killing the tree
17:30 obra heh
17:30 obra is this before or after 6.2.0?
17:30 autrijus this is JustInTime for 6.2.0.
17:30 autrijus basically to get the reference / container / tieable semantic Just Right.
17:31 autrijus we were using a rubyish "everything is a scalar" semantic
17:31 autrijus turns out to not cut it.
17:31 obra heh
17:31 autrijus so I went back and emulated fulle perltie.
17:32 autrijus oh well. guess I'll local branch.
17:32 obra server branch?
17:32 obra or are speculative branches "bad" in pugsland?
17:32 autrijus not seeing a point... it'll be completed tomorrow anyway
17:32 autrijus it is good for long-term stuff, which this is noe
17:32 autrijus s/noe/not/
17:32 * obra was wondering if it would get completed overnight if it was on the server ;)
17:33 obra eep! I almost autrijused my laptop with a full cup of iced latte
17:33 justatheory has quit IRC ()
17:33 autrijus eep!
17:33 autrijus mmm decisions decisions
17:34 autrijus nah. local branch it is.
17:34 autrijus # http://autrijus.org/tmp/itype.patch  -- full patch in case anyone want to take a peek
17:35 cognominal arf. I wrote =~  insteand of ~~
17:35 cognominal wonders what =~ means in perl6
17:35 ninereasons whatever you want it to mean, I think
17:35 autrijus pugs> $_ =~ 4; $_
17:35 autrijus '4'
17:36 autrijus (parsed as = and ~)
17:36 ninereasons "scalar context"
17:36 ninereasons ?
17:36 autrijus "string context"
17:37 cognominal boy, my brain is a mishmash of ocaml, perl5, perl6 and haskell with some sml good mesure
17:37 ninereasons sounds like a tasty mishmash
17:37 autrijus clearly you need some Curry too
17:37 cognominal tasty but mishmash nevertheless
17:38 cognominal does pugs   arlready support currying?
17:38 autrijus sure does.
17:38 autrijus .assuming
17:39 autrijus hrm. a "tie" primitive is now trivial.
17:39 autrijus what does larry say about tie again?
17:39 cognominal boy, I am making a presentation titled "experimental perl6" in two weeks. I could almost $title ~~ s/experimental//
17:40 autrijus "But Perl 6 variables are tied directly at declaration time, and for performance reasons may not be tied with a run-time "tie" statement unless the variable is explicitly declared with an implementation type that does the "Tieable" role."
17:40 autrijus english speakers: does this "may not be" mean it is against the spec to make all vars tieable?
17:40 ninereasons sigh.  larry sometimes ties my brain in a knot
17:40 obra  
17:40 obra       Appending "is SomeType" to a variable or parameter is the Perl 6 equivalent of Perl 5's
17:40 metaperl has quit IRC (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The dawn of a new age")
17:40 obra       "tie" mechanism, except that the tying is part of the declaration. For example:
17:41 Corion (not an english speaker): Yes. "May not" means "it is not allowed/possible".
17:41 autrijus obra: right, that's compile time tie
17:41 obra ah
17:41 autrijus alright then. not big loss. I'll just implement "is Tieable" too.
17:41 autrijus ;)
17:41 Qiang_zh has joined #perl6
17:41 * autrijus loves runtime tie()ing.
17:43 * obra would love a version of tie that's a pass-through by default
17:43 autrijus what's the good thing about that?
17:43 obra it's more like attach
17:43 autrijus oh. hooks.
17:43 autrijus yeah. that makes sense.
17:43 obra so. think about the filehandle tieing issue we were talking about for H::S::Recorder
17:43 obra yeah
17:44 autrijus although it's done in p5 already as Tie::Handle
17:44 autrijus Tie::Array etc
17:44 autrijus just subclass it and throw things to SUPER
17:44 cognominal sub japh (Str $lang) { say "just another $lang hacker"; } perl6Japh() # soooo cool
17:44 cognominal oops
17:44 * autrijus waits for a version that actually runs :)
17:44 obra huh.
17:45 cognominal sub japh (Str $lang) { say "just another $lang hacker"; }; &perl6Japh := &japh.assuming("Perl6");  perl6Japh()
17:45 Ovid autrijus: has anyone started pleac yet?
17:45 autrijus Ovid: no. want to take a stab?
17:46 autrijus cognominal: nice!
17:46 Ovid Yeah.  I already have a directory structure fleshed out and two example programs.  I've commented out the examples that cause pugs to fail.  I was going to add a README and then ask if I could check it in.
17:46 autrijus the final () is redundant
17:46 autrijus Ovid: go ahead and check in under examples/pleac/
17:46 Ovid How handy.  That's where I put it :)
17:48 Corion Ovid: Consider adding your examples to t/pugsrun/*-uppercase-c.t , so they get checked if they still compile :)
17:49 Ovid Oh, I'll take a look at that.
17:49 Ovid I'll have to do that later, though.  I have to run for a couple of hours and I want to get this commit out the door.
17:54 carrumba has joined #perl6
17:55 Ovid Done.  I've got to run.  See ya, folks!
17:56 Ovid has quit IRC ()
17:57 autrijus thanks ovid!
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18:07 ninereasons what is 'pleac' ?
18:07 autrijus pleac.sf.net
18:07 autrijus see readme
18:08 ninereasons thanks. (making note to regularly review readmes)
18:11 mjh is the intention with pleac to port them into whatever the simplest perl6 is that pugs can currently run, or whatever the perl6 spec allows?
18:12 autrijus mjh: the former
18:12 mjh cool :)
18:12 autrijus but feel free to do the latter too
18:12 autrijus and mark them with # comments
18:12 autrijus that's what Ovid did
18:12 autrijus and I think that's fine.
18:12 * mjh takes a look at ovid's commit
18:16 ninereasons that would be an interesting structure for a test suite ;  
18:16 ninereasons instant appeal to perl5 people
18:23 mjh (how much does svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs lag behind svn.openfoundry.org/pugs, out of interest?)
18:24 autrijus oops. syncer restarted
18:24 mjh lol
18:24 autrijus they are supposed to be synced per minute.
18:24 * mjh nods.
18:24 ninereasons it's weird to have different subversion version numbers from mirrored sources.  is it still like that?
18:25 autrijus yeah. can't quite help
18:25 autrijus openfoundry is the master repos.
18:25 autrijus svn.perl.org is mainly just for redundancy and backup
18:26 ninereasons it doesn't matter much, because openfoundry is fast
18:26 autrijus good to hear that.
18:26 ninereasons but I wondered why svn wasn't used to synch the to repositories.  can't that be done?
18:27 autrijus mm?
18:27 autrijus we sync them using svk and SVN::Mirror
18:27 ninereasons s/to/two/
18:27 autrijus it's svn underneath
18:27 autrijus we can arguably put a per-commit hook on openfoundry side
18:27 autrijus to automagically push to svn.perl.org
18:27 autrijus but ENOTUITS
18:30 obra ninereasons: the issue is that svn version numbers are per repository, not globally unique, no?
18:30 ninereasons I guess so.
18:30 obra and for that, someone needs to come up with some very clever new numbering system
18:30 ninereasons yes
18:31 obra or svk needs to be able to tag a copy as "r1234@master" when the copy is made. which it can sort of do now, but only in the commit log
18:32 autrijus it's also in the revprop.
18:32 autrijus it's just not displayed.
18:32 mjh svk's a smarter alternative client to the svn client, right?
18:33 ninereasons a perlish svn ?
18:33 autrijus right.
18:33 mjh (or does it also use a different server, but backed with the svn db format?)
18:33 autrijus it's a client to svn, but also to cvs and p4
18:33 hcchien a client but not only  for svn
18:33 autrijus it's a bitkeeper-ish VCS.
18:34 mjh very cool
18:34 obra svk uses svn as a substrate, but also can read from p4, bk, cvs, svn and write to svn
18:34 autrijus :) I owe much of my productivity on Pugs to svk.
18:36 ninereasons How will we say __DATA__ in perl 6 ?
18:36 ninereasons #" (Frees up the = twigil for %= POD doc structures and old __DATA__ stream, ... "
18:36 autrijus =for DATA
18:36 autrijus =begin DATA
18:36 autrijus =begin END
18:36 ninereasons =end DATA ?
18:36 autrijus I thought it's endless
18:36 autrijus not sure.
18:37 ninereasons having an end would make for some interesting self-parsing possibilities, I would think
18:37 autrijus sure.
18:39 Corion DATA is endless
18:39 Corion (IMO)
18:39 Corion The Perl parser just stops reading the file.
18:40 Corion seek DATA, 0, 0 gets you your source code
18:40 ninereasons is the end optional, or illegal?
18:40 Corion ninereasons: You will end up with a line "=end DATA" in your $DATA filehandle :)
18:40 theorbtwo I thought the =beginning of the END was forever, but the =beginning of the DATA was stoppable.
18:40 theorbtwo (I thought that was one reason for changing the syntax.)
18:42 theorbtwo (Note the "I thought" -- I do not have a great memory for such things.)
18:42 ninereasons so DATA and END will continue to be synonyms, unless theorbtwo's memory serves?
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18:43 ninereasons I never much liked saying <DATA> to read __END__
18:45 autrijus journal up.
18:45 autrijus see you tomorrow. :-) *wave* &
18:45 ninereasons big day, looking forward to reading your journ
18:46 theorbtwo Oh.  See you tommorow.
18:47 Corion Oh. One of the t/statements/given tests unexpectedly succeeds!
18:47 * theorbtwo wonders who "jmm" in the list of people going to YAPC::NA is.
18:48 Corion theorbtwo: J McMahon?
18:48 Corion (that's the only one that immediately springs to mind)
18:48 Corion (with these initials, I mean, to my mind)
18:48 theorbtwo Oh, that's possible.
18:48 * theorbtwo has those initials, but I'm listed sepperately.
18:49 theorbtwo James Michael Mastros.
18:50 Corion theorbtwo: Ah - I didn't connect you with those, weirdly enough :)
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19:18 * mjh grabs some toast and looks more closely at pleac
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19:40 mjh how many of pugs' tests should fail (roughly) at make test?
19:40 Corion_ has joined #perl6
19:40 mjh (on svn head)
19:40 castaway none?
19:40 mjh guess i have a problem with my ghc, then
19:40 theorbtwo mjh, it's normal for about 5% failure.
19:41 theorbtwo If you look at the end of the /topic, you'll see mildly up-to-date numbers.
19:41 theorbtwo (Don't confuse the newbies, love.)
19:42 Odin-LAP Isn't that the chief source of entertainment for "old-timers"?
19:42 castaway well, none of the *should* fail, but some do
19:42 castaway :)
19:42 mjh theorbtwo: ah, okay; thanks :)
19:42 * castaway isnt old!
19:42 Odin-LAP Hm. Compared to me, you most likely are. >:)
19:43 Odin-LAP But I wasn't referring to age. :p
19:43 * castaway shudders at the thought
19:43 castaway neither was I ;)
19:43 castaway I'm just a useless lurker
19:43 theorbtwo Aww, you aren't useless, love.
19:44 Odin-LAP Ah, but that's irrelevant. You've been here a while, haven't you? ;>
19:44 castaway I dunno
19:44 * castaway is mostly stalking
19:44 * castaway huggles theorbtwo.
19:44 * castaway declares self moral officer ,)
19:45 mjh hrm ;)
19:45 * Odin-LAP hands theorbtwo an assault rifle and several crates of ammunition ... "for self-defense".
19:46 castaway heh
19:47 Odin-LAP But then again, this is a perl channel. It's not like there's a lot of sanity around.
19:49 * mjh goes to order takeaway whilst waiting for the remainder of the tests to pass^wfail
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19:58 ninereasons "makes hard things possible"
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19:58 ninereasons pugs> my @z = (['timers',1..3],['factor','a'.. 'c']) ;
19:58 ninereasons pugs> my %hash = map -> @a { @a[0] => @a[1..Inf] } @z;
19:59 ninereasons pugs> %hash<factor>[0][0] # ('a')
19:59 ninereasons pugs> %hash.perl
19:59 ninereasons '((\'factor\' => (\'a\', \'b\', \'c\')), (\'timers\' => (1, 2, 3)))'
20:00 ninereasons it is so cool to be able to do that so easily
20:00 Odin- has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
20:08 ninereasons it's been years since I've had so much fun with perl (and I've only been in perl for a few years).
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20:09 ninereasons %committers{'all'}++ && say $bye
20:09 ninereasons has quit IRC (""bye"")
20:10 castaway ;)
20:13 Corion_ %committers<all> :)
20:13 Juerd That's @committers>>++
20:20 cognominal btw , what is the shortest way to iterate on a 2 dimensional array?
20:24 Corion_ Are there any objections against me using the "-P" command line option to make it the big brother of "-p" ? It would become "while ($_ = =<>) { ...; say }". Or should "-p" use say() ?
20:24 Corion_ (if -p uses say(), we need chomping on the input. Otherwise, pugs -pe1 is not cat anymore)
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20:28 theorbtwo I'd say -p should autochomp and say, but you might want to ask p6l.
20:28 theorbtwo I was under the impression that autochomping was the norm.
20:28 Corion_ theorbtwo: Ah - I'll go with your impression then :)
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20:33 Ovid So, in working on the Perl6 Cookbook (examples/pleac), I'm coming across plenty of cases where Pugs isn't quite working, yet.  Should I add those to the tests?  How is this being managed?
20:33 Corion_ Ovid: If they are hard parsefails, put them below pugsbugs, otherwise write (maybe todo_) tests for the features and put them where appropriate. Also, keep an eye on the roadmap as to when features are supposed to appear :)
20:35 Ovid OK.  Thanks Corion.
20:35 Ovid What about things that aren't causing the parse to fail, but throw an error and halt the program?  I don't want to prevent the rests of the tests from running, do I?
20:36 Corion_ Ovid: I write my tests into their own (smallish) separate test files
20:36 theorbtwo I think that's a good idea, myself.
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20:41 * Corion_ commits autochomping for -p and -n (and "say" for -p)
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20:47 Corion_ is now known as Corion
20:47 Corion brb
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20:52 Corion Win32 Pugs segfaults on pugs -e "say NaN**NaN == NaN" - I suspect a memory overflow or something, as it takes about 5 seconds before the program gets terminated
20:54 Corion ... it doesn't segfault on pugs -e "my$a= NaN**NaN == NaN"; but does so on pugs -e "my$a= NaN**NaN == NaN; say $a"
20:54 elmex this async { } stuff is a thread? or a coroutine?
20:54 Corion elmex: A userspace thread
20:54 elmex uhg
20:54 Corion ... but can be an OS thread too.
20:55 elmex Corion: is that p6 spec? or will that be a coroutine?
20:55 Corion elmex: But relatively safe. Calls to external routines, or system() block all threads.
20:55 Corion elmex: We simply stole what Haskell offers. The test is under t/unspecced, because it is.
20:56 theorbtwo Corion -- I get a segfault on just pugs -e 'say NaN**NaN'
20:56 elmex well, will async {} always create a thread? or will that be a coroutine in future/
20:56 Corion theorbtwo: Yes, me too
20:56 elmex ?
20:56 Corion elmex: Dunno. Read the specs, if there are any.
20:56 theorbtwo Corion: under linux, so it's not win32-specific.  make a test?
20:57 Corion theorbtwo: Yep, I was about to name it "win32", but now it'll just go, hmm - under Pugsbugs ? Or Haskellbugs ?
20:57 Corion I suspect it's a problem in GHC (but wouldn't know how to check that)
20:57 * theorbtwo sighs, wonders WTF to do with this hs-plugins problem.
20:59 elmex who wrote examples/network/http-server.p6 ?
21:00 Corion elmex: Dunno. Look in the committer log or his journal. Maybe autrijus did
21:00 theorbtwo Hm, from the GHCI prompt, (0/0)**(0/0) works (and quickly).
21:00 theorbtwo svn blame shows everything being by autrijus r1431.
21:01 elmex where are specs that define what async does??
21:01 theorbtwo Yep, svn log agrees.
21:01 elmex or is async just a hack?
21:02 Corion elmex: I consider it a simple yet convenient hack. Something like it will go into Perl6.
21:03 elmex you mean creating threads with async {} ?
21:04 elmex i would more like async {} to be more like Coro ;)
21:04 Corion elmex: I don't know if you will get threads, or some other method of quasi-parallel, asynchronous execution, but I expect something like this will be available. See also Coro.pm.
21:06 Ovid OK, I confess that I'm not much of an OS guy, so I have a stupid question:  if a Perl6 program begins with #!perl6 and I do ./program, I get a "perl6: bad interpreter: No such file or directory", even though I can run it with "perl6 program".  How can I run programs with ./program_name?
21:07 castaway "perl6" not "pugs" ?
21:07 theorbtwo #! needs to be a full path.
21:07 Ovid Yeah, there are plenty of programs out there that begin with perl6.  I thought it was odd, but I tried to stick with the convention I was seeing.
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21:08 theorbtwo Yeah, the existing convention is pretty meaningless.
21:08 Ovid theorbtwo:  I was trying not to use a full path because I have /usr/local/bin/perl6 and others have /usr/bin/perl6
21:08 theorbtwo Try #!/usr/bin/evn perl6
21:08 Ovid Hrmph.  I suppose I can just make a link.
21:08 theorbtwo But most people don't have either.
21:12 Ovid Thanks. I'll change the shebang lines in the Cookbook, then.
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21:12 theorbtwo Sorry, that's env, not evn.
21:15 Corion The offending, segfaulting tests now get skip()ped, and another test has been added under t/pugsbugs that contains the segfault.
21:16 Corion ... this is still annoying for Win32 users, but such is life
21:29 Corion Hmmm. Haskell resp. while($_ = =<>) { ... } doesn't handle eof() gracefully: pugs: <stdin>: hGetLine: end of file - no END blocks run no nothing. Should this go under pugsbugs ?
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21:31 Ovid Question:  I know there's got to be an easier way to find out if elements in one array aren't in another.  I have this:
21:31 Ovid for @a -> $elem {
21:31 Ovid    @aonly.push $elem if $elem == none(@b);
21:31 Ovid }
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21:34 Juerd Ovid: Parens around first $elem are needed
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21:34 Juerd Ovid: And you probably want ~~ if @a contains both numbers and strings (and regexes)
21:35 Juerd (etcetera)
21:36 Ovid Juerd:  the parens aren't required.  The code works.
21:36 Juerd Then that's different from the spec
21:37 Juerd (IMHO, not requiring parens is saner)
21:37 theorbtwo Mine too, but IIRC there was some potential for ambiguity with no-parens.
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21:38 Juerd push @aonly, grep { $_ == none(@b) }, @a;  # nostalgia
21:38 Juerd And if @aonly starts empty:
21:39 Juerd @aonly = gather {
21:39 Juerd    for @a -> $elem {
21:39 Juerd        take $elem if $elem == none(@b);
21:39 Juerd    }
21:39 Juerd }
21:39 Juerd :)
21:39 Juerd In fact...
21:39 Juerd @aonly = gather {
21:40 Juerd    $_ !~ none(@b) and take for @a;
21:40 Juerd }
21:40 revdiablo ooh, gather. that's sexy.
21:40 Juerd eh, s/!~/==/
21:40 Juerd @aonly = gather { for (@a) { take when $_ == none(@b) } }
21:41 * Juerd wants some syntax to apply $_ ~~ :)
21:41 Juerd As with //, where $_ ~~ is also implicit...
21:41 Juerd perhaps prefix ~~...
21:42 theorbtwo Prefix ~~ is already somewhat taken, though I'm not sure why somebody would want to stringify the stringification of something.
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21:43 Juerd theorbtwo: That reasoning leads to not having preinc.
21:43 Juerd And since we have preinc, we can also have ~~.
21:43 Juerd As + is for numbers what ~ is for strings
21:43 theorbtwo Point.
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21:45 Ovid Gotta run!  Thanks for the pointers, Juerd. :)
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22:13 theorbtwo G'night, all.
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22:14 mjh Failed 51/197 test scripts, 74.11% okay. 289/4219 subtests failed, 93.15% okay.
22:14 mjh i guess that's par for the course at the moment, then :)
22:15 Corion elmex: Look at &?CALLER_CONTINUATION also, for basic coroutine/continuation handling
22:15 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <<Overview Journal Logs>> | You have safely opened the door to many Perl 6 hackers. | pugs.kwiki.org | smoke: http://xrl.us/fmw2 | Mac OS X r1682 (281/4184) | Win2k r1700 (288/4223)
22:16 Corion A short question - &?CALLER_CONTINUATION gives me the context of the caller. How can I store my current context so I can pick up there again without cooperation of the calling sub?
22:19 Corion ... that is, if I do @handlers = &?CALLER_CONTINUATION; ...; for @handlers -> $c { &c->(); xxx };  # how can I get to "xxx" if $c is within a loop and never returns, but calls another subroutine that I know (let's call it get_line()) ?
22:20 Corion ... in get_line, I'd like to do &dispatch.goto(); but not to the start, but where I last left my state before switching.
22:20 Corion Anyway - I'll sleep over that :)
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22:53 stevan alright,.. finally 'make optimized' worked for me (OS X)
22:54 stevan if anyone is having issues with readline.h and readline.c when doing make optimized on OS X,.. install this http://wxhaskell.sourceforge.​net/download/Readline4.3.dmg
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