Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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03:01 jabbot pugs - 2049 - commiting the changelog
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03:51 jabbot pugs - 2050 - check in a comment generator for review
04:17 crysflame after reading HOP i now understand the whole currying/callback thing
04:19 ingy :)
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04:51 jabbot pugs - 2051 - added dies_ok() and lives_ok(); added te
04:51 jabbot pugs - 2052 - added edge cases and error cases to t/bu
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05:04 scw autrijus: Hello, it seems I didn't fix all the trailing-space eating problem of %h<a> and %h{'a'}
05:05 scw autrijus: only those in string interpolating
05:05 scw i.e. my %h = a => 1;  "%h<a> <b>"  becomes "1 <b>" instead of ""
05:11 jabbot pugs - 2053 - some more test cleanup and edge/error ca
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05:21 jabbot pugs - 2054 -  r14182@not (orig r2126):  autrijus | 20
05:31 jabbot pugs - 2055 - * some cleanup on changelog
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05:53 autrijus scw: it only matters there anyway
05:53 autrijus afaik
05:53 gaal has left
05:54 autrijus fixed changelog
05:57 crysflame hi, autrijus.
05:57 autrijus foundry is back... time to change /topic
05:57 autrijus hi crysflame
05:58 autrijus changes topic to: pugscode.org «Overview Journal Logs»
05:58 autrijus changes topic to: pugscode.org «Overview Journal Logs» | r1773/winxp: 587/4256 smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (158/4302, r2032) | pugs.kwiki.org
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06:01 jabbot pugs - 2056 - * some more cleanup and clarification on
06:07 * mugwump goes home to play with his FreeBSD laptop
06:09 scw autrijus: no,  %h<a> < %h<b>   should not be parsed as %h{'a'}{'%h<b'}
06:13 autrijus oh, that bug is still there?
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06:18 scw ya, :(
06:18 scw and I cannot even find out who eat those spaces :(
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06:19 autrijus likely "rule"
06:19 autrijus all "rule" eats spaces
06:20 autrijus only "verbatimRule" does not
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06:20 scw :/
06:21 jabbot pugs - 2057 - delete some of the sappier phrases
06:21 jabbot pugs - 2058 - * bring Lexer uptodate to use "Cxt"; als
06:21 scw Wow, I make my ghc panic :p
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06:51 jabbot pugs - 2059 - delete obsolete 'isnt' tests
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07:11 jabbot pugs - 2060 - Add myself to AUTHORS
07:12 * castaway flips jabbots off-switch ,
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07:21 jabbot pugs - 2061 - * clean up the nick part on pernod's UTF
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07:51 jabbot pugs - 2062 - Really fix the space-eating problem on %
07:51 jabbot pugs - 2063 - Fix wrong test on string interpolation.
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08:10 * theorbtwo wonders who removed the trailing spaces in the AUTHORS file.
08:16 castaway 2060 maybe?
08:17 * theorbtwo shrugs.
08:18 castaway why does it need trailing spaces?
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08:19 theorbtwo Because the trailing spaces are the clue to fixauthors that the utf8 names have already been added automatically and then removed manually.
08:20 theorbtwo (Because fixauthors isn't smart enough to not add the utf8 name when it would be the same as the ASCII name.)
08:21 theorbtwo (Both because I'm lazy and haven't made it check, and because it's not that simple -- I consider the name in the first column the same as the one in the third column even if the middle name has a representational change.)
08:22 castaway Ah
08:22 castaway Maybe you should add a note to the file that says that?
08:25 mj pugs -e "require Test; ok(!(eval 'my $a = [ { 1 }, { 3 } ]; $a().ref; 1'), '');"
08:26 kungfuftr moo
08:26 mj how to catch this?
08:26 kungfuftr $!
08:27 castaway use not_ok, for starters ?
08:27 castaway (assuming pugs' Test has one)
08:27 scw why $a() ?
08:27 theorbtwo I think you actually want ok_dies, or whatever it's called.
08:28 theorbtwo dies_ok
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08:29 theorbtwo Morning, lightstep.
08:30 mj pugs -e "require Test; plan 1; ok(!(eval ' my $a = [ { 1 } ]; say $a().ref; 1'), '');"
08:33 mj dies_ok, eval  .... output is still "pugs: cannot cast from VList [VCode ( ..."
08:33 mj scw: because $a = [ { 1 } ], say $a().ref  ... say Int
08:35 lightstep good morning
08:38 scw mj: IMHO, $a = [ { 1 } ] makes $a a reference of array whose first element is a subroutine
08:39 scw to call it, shouldn't we use $a[0]()  ?
08:39 scw Then,  my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; $a[2]()  works fine
08:39 castaway I think he's trying to test if it dies sanely
08:40 scw Oh
08:40 castaway (ie it should give a perl error, not a haskell one :)
08:40 mj pugs -e "my $a = [ { 1 } ]; say join ' ', $a.ref, $a[].ref, $a[0].ref, $a[0]().ref, $a().ref;"
08:40 mj Array Array Sub Int Int
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08:41 * castaway looks at mj for confirmation
08:41 castaway allo nm!
08:41 theorbtwo Do it, and then do an ok(1, 'We're still alive after trying to call an array ref')?
08:42 mj pugs -e "my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; say join ' ', $a.ref, $a[].ref, $a[0].ref, $a[0]().ref, $a().ref;"
08:42 mj pugs: cannot cast from VList [V
08:43 mj castaway ... yes it should dies
08:43 mj IMHO
08:44 nothingmuch hola
08:44 * nothingmuch goes back to the doctor
08:47 * nothingmuch wonders where corion is
08:47 mj pugs -e "require Test; plan 2; ok(!(eval 'my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; say $a().ref; 1'), ''); ok(1,1)"
08:47 mj 1..2
08:47 mj pugs: cannot cast from VList [VCode (Sub {isMulti = False, subName = "<anon>", s...
08:47 mj pugs -e "require Test; plan 2; dies_ok( { my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; say $a().ref; }, ''); ok(1,1)"
08:47 mj 1..2
08:47 mj pugs: cannot cast from VList [VCode (Sub {isMulti = False, subName = "<anon>", s ...
08:49 * castaway wonders if mj can talk english as well as P6
08:50 castaway It looks like it doesnt die_ok, so put that in the todo? (I dont quite see why we need it in the channel)
08:50 theorbtwo Make a new test file in pugsbugs with just that test in it.
08:51 theorbtwo Design it so that it succeeds and does 1..1\nok 1\n, or fails and does a 1..1\n and then vanishes.
08:51 * nothingmuch wonders what test failed in this report: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.cpan.testers/199247
08:52 mj castaway:  I am sorry about my English.
08:52 castaway Which english? :)
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08:57 mj say $mj.speaks('English');  # Bool::false
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09:34 mj eval 'my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; say $a().ref'; is a eval bug, is it?
09:37 theorbtwo Looks like it to me.
09:37 theorbtwo Well, not sure the bug is in eval and not elsewhere.
09:37 theorbtwo But it is almost certianly a bug.
09:45 mj And can I add
09:45 mj my $a = [ in => { a => 1, b => 2 } ]; say join ' ', $a.ref, $a[0].ref;
09:45 mj to mixed_multi_dimensional.t ?
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09:51 castaway Why are you joining? Just test one after the other?
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10:12 mj sorry, problem is Hash of Hashes ...
10:12 mj my %hash = ('key', 'value', 'key1', 'value1');
10:12 mj my %hash2;
10:12 mj %hash2<in> = %hash;
10:12 mj say join ' ', %hash2.ref, %hash2<in>.ref;  
10:12 mj # Hash Array::Slice
10:12 mj probably similar to Hash of ... in mixed_multi_dimensional.t
10:19 castaway hmm, interesting question.. if the first sigil now doesnt tell you what type of output you wanted, how does it know?
10:29 mj Can pugs return two arrays from sub?
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10:33 mj stupid typo .... return (\a, \b); of course
10:58 Juerd References are hard!
10:58 Juerd And will be even harder in Perl6!
10:59 Juerd Well, easier to use by accident, harder to use on purpose.
10:59 osfameron ah, that didn't seem to be the original plan..
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11:01 castaway The best laid plans..
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11:27 * theorbtwo returns.
11:27 theorbtwo mj, fix your AUTHORS file entry?
11:28 castaway You were away?
11:28 * theorbtwo was away.
11:30 theorbtwo (AUTHORS now has nearly-empty lines for "gcomnz", "mattc", "ninereasons", "putter", "tobez", "roie_m", "rootmj", and "wolverian"), but on the upside it now includes entries for all commiters.)
11:30 castaway nifty
11:30 wolverian I can add my name of course.
11:31 jabbot pugs - 2064 - AUTHORS file updates, and another tool t
11:31 theorbtwo Ah, nifty.
11:31 wolverian and thanks. :)
11:33 * castaway reccommends theorbtwo have lunch.
11:34 theorbtwo Oh, the guy I found googling that I wasn't sure was you was.
11:41 jabbot pugs - 2065 - fixing my AUTHORS line; and thanks to th
11:41 jabbot pugs - 2066 - fixing my AUTHORS line; small tutorial_g
11:46 theorbtwo Um, rootmj, the bit in parens and allcaps is supposed to be your CPAN ID.
11:52 castaway Is there a hint that says so?
11:54 Juerd castaway: Common sense! :)
11:55 castaway not everyone has it ,)
11:55 mj muhehe
11:55 mj http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/pugs/tutorial_gen/tut-output/test4.p6.html
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12:04 nothingmuch stevan: ping
12:04 nothingmuch theorbtwo: roie_m has mailed p6c with his full name
12:04 nothingmuch i can hebrewise it if he's not here
12:09 * nothingmuch 's eyes hurt, taking break from puter
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12:11 jabbot pugs - 2067 - encode_entities for tutorial_gen and fix
12:11 jabbot pugs - 2068 - fix my and TortoiseSVN fault
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12:11 theorbtwo Roie Marianer is Hebrew?
12:11 nothingmuch yup
12:11 nothingmuch רועי מריאנר
12:11 nothingmuch רועי מרינר
12:12 nothingmuch either of these should work and he can correct it later
12:12 gugod what does that mean?
12:12 nothingmuch מרינר is prolly a european type name
12:12 nothingmuch i'm asking a friend named רועיwhat his name means
12:13 castaway (hmm, none of that looks like language here ,)
12:13 nothingmuch he says 'either shepherd or something else, can't remember'
12:13 nothingmuch literally it could mean 'my shepherd'
12:13 mj damm it, I need break and food
12:13 nothingmuch i'll ci it into the AUTHORS
12:14 theorbtwo Thanks; my emacs doesn't want to paste that as utf8.
12:14 nothingmuch and then i'm really going
12:14 nothingmuch are pugsbugs tests being deleted?
12:21 jabbot pugs - 2069 - roiem in hebrew
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13:04 Juerd They say on #perl that 93 x 18 = 1674
13:04 Juerd That's just not true.
13:04 Juerd It's 939393939393939393939393939393939393.
13:06 Juerd Besides, you can't assign to that.
13:06 castaway ,)
13:07 stevan nothingmuch: pong
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13:15 boogie stevan: ping-pong
13:18 stevan boogie: :)
13:19 stevan boogie: I responded to you on perl6-compiler regarding CGI
13:20 boogie stevan: and I picked up your second idea and answered it.
13:21 boogie "What, if the first param() function call would trigger the whole parameter decoding?"
13:22 boogie has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Mozilla rv:1.8b/20050217]")
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13:24 * boogie is here again
13:24 stevan boogie: but what if you have 20 parameters
13:24 stevan and one of them tells you if you need to read the rest
13:25 stevan if we decode the param() only when you ask for it, that would be not be a problem
13:26 boogie and what if you would like to read a param more than once?
13:26 stevan boogie: oh,.. good point :)
13:27 stevan boogie: with your idea we only need one $IS_DECODED flag
13:27 * boogie hesitates
13:28 boogie yes, you're right.
13:29 stevan ok, so the first call to param() will decode all the params, or will it load the params()
13:29 stevan how lazy to we want to be :)
13:29 stevan actually if we don't load the params until the first param() call we dont need a flag at all
13:30 stevan unless %PARAMS.keys { load_params() }
13:30 stevan that is all we would need
13:30 boogie yes, that's all I think
13:30 stevan (well not all we would need, but that is the idea)
13:30 stevan we would still need to check the GET and POST code
13:30 stevan boogie: would you like to make the change? Or should I?
13:31 boogie stevan: I can do it, but as you prefer. :)
13:32 stevan boogie: you can do it, I actually need to do some $work anyway :)
13:32 * stevan grumbles about having to code in perl 5 again
13:33 boogie stevan: it's the same for me, but I'll do it. ;)
13:33 nothingmuch pong2
13:33 stevan boogie: we can split the work if you like :)
13:34 stevan nothingmuch: howdy
13:34 boogie stevan: how? ;)
13:34 nothingmuch hi ho
13:34 boogie stevan: it doesn't seems to be a big job...
13:34 * nothingmuch wonders where corion is hiding
13:34 stevan boogie: do as much as you can, and when you boss catches you,.. commit and I will finish :)
13:34 castaway work, he usually only logs in when he gets home.. (from my observations)
13:35 castaway he's probably listening to the CB though
13:37 boogie stevan: no boss, that's me. but I'll do, and you check it?
13:39 stevan boogie: sounds good to me
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13:49 * theorbtwo pings nothingmuch.
13:49 nothingmuch pong
13:50 * nothingmuch chimes
13:50 theorbtwo My keyboard and mouse arrived -- mind helping me get my machine running?
13:50 nothingmuch sure
13:50 theorbtwo I know very little about macs...
13:50 castaway (plug keyboard into hole marked 'keyboard' .. )
13:50 nothingmuch so where have you gotten so far?
13:50 nothingmuch ah
13:50 theorbtwo When I just let it boot, I now get a dark grey apple log on a grey background, with a waiting thing at the bottom.
13:51 nothingmuch ADB is daisy chainable
13:51 theorbtwo After a while, the apple logo changes to a "no".
13:51 nothingmuch that means it's booting
13:51 nothingmuch oi
13:51 castaway its mac prolog ?
13:51 nothingmuch you can get verbose boot by booting up with cmd+v
13:51 nothingmuch and single user boot with cmd+s
13:51 theorbtwo When I do verbose I get the repeating "cant OPEN: ".
13:53 castaway hmm, drives attached?
13:53 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
13:53 theorbtwo Yes, drives are attached.
13:54 theorbtwo I wouldn't expect to get the grey and grey color scheme if it wasn't seeing the CD rom, as that's an OSX thing.
13:54 theorbtwo Yep, thought so.
13:54 stevan theorbtwo: is OS X on the disk yet?
13:54 * castaway wonders what its trying to open then
13:55 theorbtwo cmd-s booting stays at the alternating black and white with rounded corners and a pointer.
13:55 stevan boogie: do you have any idea what merlyn is talking about? (see perl6-compiler)
13:55 theorbtwo Nope, stevan.
13:55 stevan theorbtwo: hold down c and turn on the power
13:55 stevan older macs need to be told to look in the CD drive
13:55 boogie stevan: I'm still trying to decode.
13:55 stevan boogie: so am I :)
13:58 theorbtwo I assume rebooting with alt-power, then holding down c, will work?  It's not set up so I can power and immidately hold down a key.
13:58 nothingmuch you can do cmd+ctrl+power
13:58 nothingmuch to get a reboot
13:59 * theorbtwo wonders why mac people do not refer to metakeys the way they are labled.
13:59 theorbtwo crtl=apple key, right?
14:00 nothingmuch no, ctrl = ctrl
14:00 nothingmuch =)
14:00 nothingmuch cmd is the little flower/apple button
14:00 theorbtwo OK.
14:00 nothingmuch depending on how old your keyboard is
14:00 nothingmuch and alt was labeled alt starting 1998 or so
14:00 nothingmuch IIRC
14:00 theorbtwo Apple and thing-that-looks-like-#-with-rounded-corners.
14:00 nothingmuch yes
14:01 nothingmuch that's the apple key
14:01 nothingmuch or command key
14:01 theorbtwo Gotcha now.
14:01 theorbtwo Fortnatly, my alt key is labeled with both "alt" and funky-bent-line-and-dash.
14:01 theorbtwo Anyway, holding c gets me the black-and-white-plus-cursor.
14:02 theorbtwo Perhaps I should try swapping the cd and hdd; I don't know which is supposed to be witch.
14:02 nothingmuch black & white plus cursor?
14:02 nothingmuch describe black and white
14:03 theorbtwo alternating black pixel and white pixel, with the corners rounded off to black.
14:05 theorbtwo Swapped them, now trying C boot again.
14:06 nothingmuch okay
14:06 nothingmuch that sounds like the preboot screen
14:06 nothingmuch firmware sort of thing
14:06 nothingmuch it happens before a boot disk is found
14:06 nothingmuch rounded corners are always there at the top
14:06 nothingmuch (historic reasons?)
14:07 * stevan fondly recalls the day he spent in the ROM monitor trying to get his NeXT slab to work
14:08 * theorbtwo wonders if it's time to try booting to the open firmware.
14:09 boogie stevan: code checked in
14:09 boogie stevan: it seems to work
14:10 stevan boogie: I will take a look :)
14:10 boogie stevan: I used $IS_PARAMS_LOADED, because it's possible that %PARAMS.keys is false
14:11 jabbot pugs - 2070 - load_params on demand
14:12 theorbtwo When trying to boot into open firmware I get a repeating "unrecognized Client Program fromatstate not valid".
14:13 nothingmuch oi
14:13 nothingmuch that is something i've never seen
14:14 * theorbtwo tries a prom zap.
14:14 castaway hmm, that worked with qemu, no?
14:15 castaway http://www.sk.netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/faq.html#formatstate-not-valid
14:15 kakos has joined #perl6
14:16 nothingmuch http://eshop.macsales.com/OSXCenter/XPostFacto/Framework.cfm?page=Compatibility.html
14:17 nothingmuch talks about beige g3s
14:17 nothingmuch and the fact that they supported pre-panther
14:17 castaway The list I found said 10.1 -> 10.3 was supported on G3/266
14:19 theorbtwo Hm, I could have sworn I checked, and panther supported /all/ g[345] machines.
14:20 stevan beige G3s are different than blue/white G3s
14:21 nothingmuch theorbtwo: there is a distinction between oldworld and newworld macs
14:21 nothingmuch i think panther likes newworld only
14:22 nothingmuch the distinction can be most reliably found on yaboot/bootx pages
14:22 theorbtwo I wonder if I should try finding an older OSX, or using XPostFacto.
14:22 nothingmuch SEE would like panther, IIRC
14:22 nothingmuch you could be very witty
14:22 nothingmuch and install linux ppc on the thing
14:22 nothingmuch and then try OSX inside of mol
14:23 castaway hmm, maybe I misreadthis, and the italics mean you need the XPostFacto tool: http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/mac_troubleshooter/macs+systems.html
14:25 theorbtwo Oh, looks like you need an existing 9 install to use XPostFacto.
14:25 theorbtwo Which I do not have.
14:25 theorbtwo (I bought a mobo only.)
14:25 nothingmuch oi vey
14:25 castaway hmm, bah
14:26 nothingmuch i'll go with mol for starters
14:26 castaway whats mol?
14:26 theorbtwo Mac on Linux.
14:26 nothingmuch 4th on google
14:26 nothingmuch http://www.maconlinux.org/
14:26 castaway ah
14:27 castaway sneaky
14:29 theorbtwo How slow is MoL?
14:29 castaway it says native on the page
14:29 castaway or rather, "No CPU emulation" (which is what I took it to imply)
14:34 * theorbtwo wonders: debian or yellowdog (or other).
14:42 nothingmuch debian
14:43 nothingmuch but actually gentoo
14:43 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
14:43 nothingmuch it's supposed to be pretty fast
14:43 nothingmuch yellowdog is like redhat
14:43 nothingmuch the stench remains
14:43 nothingmuch i've had some bad experiences with debian
14:43 nothingmuch but it's supposed to have improved a lot in the past 2 years
14:43 castaway (oooh, Corion is watching us.. :)
14:45 theorbtwo Yeah, debian it is.
14:45 theorbtwo 20 more minutes on the dl of the netinst.
14:46 Limbic_Region yeah - he says if you really need him [nothinmuch], you know where to find him
14:46 * Limbic_Region slaps himself on the wrist for thinking every chat window is the Chatter Box
14:47 * castaway already mentioned that way back then :)
14:58 ninereasons has joined #perl6
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15:00 wilx has joined #perl6
15:01 jabbot pugs - 2071 - Minor indentation fix and removal of end
15:03 machack666 has joined #perl6
15:04 jiing__ has quit IRC ("Computer goes to sleep!")
15:04 machack666 pugs -e 'my %hash=(1=>2,3=>4,5=>6); say %hash{%hash.keys}'
15:04 machack666 > undef
15:04 machack666 pugs -e 'my %hash=(1=>2,3=>4,5=>6); say %hash.keys'
15:04 machack666 (1,3,5)
15:04 machack666 pugs -e 'my %hash=(1=>2,3=>4,5=>6); say %hash{(1,3,5)}'
15:04 machack666 (2,4,6)
15:05 machack666 should this go in t/arrays_and_hashes/
15:05 machack666 or pugsbugs?
15:05 * nothingmuch still can't see corion when he logs into pm
15:05 nothingmuch i wonder if it's worth a /msg
15:05 nothingmuch yeah, why not
15:05 castaway he just went home, nm
15:05 nothingmuch ah
15:05 nothingmuch bummer for me
15:05 castaway yup, too slow.. otoh he may turn up here soon
15:07 machack666 I'll create a new test category: t/hashes/slice.t
15:11 jabbot pugs - 2072 - Added not yet finished German talk "Perl
15:11 autrijus hey lambdacamels
15:11 stevan happy birthday autrijus !
15:12 theorbtwo Happy birthday autrijus!
15:12 * Limbic_Region msg'd autrijus cause he thought he would be too busy today but it is turning out to be a slow morning so "Happy Bday" again autrijus
15:12 autrijus hey
15:12 autrijus thanks =)))
15:13 autrijus ooh perl6 talk from iblech
15:13 autrijus I'll add my perl6 now the ultimate to it too
15:15 nothingmuch [1 .. 3] »+« (5|10)
15:15 stevan great,.. now I need to learn Haskell, german AND chinese :)
15:15 nothingmuch what should this be?
15:15 nothingmuch i expected [6|11, 7|12, 8|13]
15:15 nothingmuch but i am getting something i'm not sure is the same
15:15 nothingmuch any(6 7 8,11 12 13)
15:16 autrijus nothingmuch: I think that's right
15:16 ninereasons happy 24th autrijus
15:16 autrijus not 100% sure though
15:16 autrijus thanks
15:16 ninereasons you are one year older than my oldest child, autrijus
15:16 nothingmuch @a[0] stringifies in an odd way
15:16 nothingmuch @a[1] is nothing
15:16 machack666 has left
15:17 nothingmuch ninereasons: i think you are the oldest #perl6-er then =)
15:17 nothingmuch we were competing the other way
15:17 nothingmuch i don't recall your entry
15:17 ninereasons autrijus*2
15:18 theorbtwo Ninereasons, you should fix your AUTHORS entry.
15:18 nothingmuch autrijus: it's a junction of lists
15:18 nothingmuch i think that's not right
15:18 nothingmuch say @a[0].pick;
15:21 jabbot pugs - 2073 - * add my P6tU talk from YAPC::Taipei 200
15:21 jabbot pugs - 2074 - Added hash slicing tests.
15:21 jabbot pugs - 2075 - Add realname
15:21 nothingmuch i'm doing an interview for perl.it on pugs:
15:21 nothingmuch - What the coolest thing you can do with Perl6 that is already working in PUGS?
15:21 nothingmuch i said hyper ops or junctions
15:21 nothingmuch anybody else got an idea?
15:22 stevan Junctions and MMD (although MMD is not totally done yet)
15:26 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
15:26 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
15:26 nothingmuch my answer:
15:27 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "cool pugs things" (13 lines, 544B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9451
15:27 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "pure perl alarm (again) - fails parse" (28 lines, 646B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9452
15:27 gaal hey all - coming back to alarm(). any idea why this doesn't parse?
15:28 gaal also, how to declare a critical section?
15:29 theorbtwo Mm, you name &?SUB, but show &?BLOCK.
15:29 autrijus gaal: 1. we don't have the int type
15:29 nothingmuch oops, copied example from tests
15:29 autrijus gaal: there's not 2. :)
15:29 gaal ah :)
15:30 rafl has quit IRC (No route to host)
15:30 gaal that does help, thanks.
15:30 nothingmuch sleep should use Num
15:30 nothingmuch i would like to sleep for floating seconds
15:30 theorbtwo alarm should probably take a Num, like sleep.
15:31 theorbtwo Of course, it's free to round it, but it should certianly /take/ it.
15:31 autrijus gaal: critical sections are not exposed by default
15:31 nothingmuch nononono, it shouldn't round it
15:31 autrijus I think you can do it using QSem (quantity semaphores)
15:31 gaal okay, this code actuall works!
15:31 autrijus oh. wow.
15:31 autrijus color me impressed
15:32 gaal modulo sending a signal :) because i haven't figured out to get the SIGALRM enum from haskell yet.
15:32 autrijus oh. it's easy
15:32 autrijus it's sigALRM from System.Posix.Signals
15:32 autrijus but I think you'll be sad
15:32 autrijus because the same module provides
15:32 autrijus scheduleAlarm :: Int -> IO Int
15:32 autrijus :)
15:32 gaal autrijus, this was the easy part, the hard part was kill() as you remmber from the weekend :)
15:33 gaal heh
15:33 autrijus so... :p
15:33 gaal then ahain why does the haskell lib one take an Int and not a Num?
15:33 autrijus because the underlying C lib takes a Int.
15:33 autrijus (iirc.)
15:33 gaal because it doesn'twant to give the impression it can do
15:33 gaal yeah
15:35 Qiang has joined #perl6
15:35 Qiang has quit IRC (Client Quit)
15:36 gaal well, i think (a) we need to make the signal enum accessible anyway (b) *we* can give fractional second alarms if available
15:36 gaal is a %SIG hash specced?
15:36 gaal %*SIG
15:36 autrijus it's not. but "when unspecced, assume p5"
15:37 gaal okay; so the first thing i want is to make my p6 code reentrant
15:37 Corion has joined #perl6
15:37 gaal still assuming a global sigalarm
15:37 Corion Are we preflight already? Or is there time to check in my new tests, that break different things? :)
15:38 gaal also, this mechanism can be used to do something else instead of a SIGARLM -- like run a deferrered thread!
15:38 gaal a thunk
15:38 Qiang has joined #perl6
15:38 Qiang has quit IRC (Client Quit)
15:38 autrijus oh wow, larry raised .specs which never entered my brain.
15:38 nothingmuch .specs?
15:39 autrijus apocalypses are the sort of documents that the more you read, the more things are in there
15:39 gaal you call my $id = alarm(3.14, { say "pi" }), and then you have some time to cancel it via $id
15:39 autrijus nothingmuch: lwall uses that to spec "@f = (1..Inf); push @f, @f;"
15:39 nothingmuch gaal++
15:39 autrijus Corion: you're free to check in things :)
15:39 nothingmuch autrijus: p6l? p6c? or unlogged?
15:40 Corion autrijus: Yay ;) I'll check in my first (nonworking) stab at splice()
15:40 autrijus nothingmuch: p6l
15:40 autrijus 590     04/18 Larry Wall      (2.3K) Re: Push and Pop on Infinite lists
15:40 Corion (plus some updated/upgraded tests, I think)
15:40 * nothingmuch will look
15:40 nothingmuch Corion: can you send me complete results of Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix fail?
15:40 Corion nothingmuch: I'll mail you the output
15:40 nothingmuch i don't see exactly what test failed in there
15:40 nothingmuch thanks
15:40 gaal is there a release today?
15:41 Corion nothingmuch: CPAN::YACSmoke doesn't sent the complete test output, supposedly because of a bug in Test::Reporter, or so Barbie told me
15:41 nothingmuch oh well
15:41 Corion nothingmuch: You want a nopaste or a mail?
15:41 gaal are there *any* "builtins" written in pure p6 now? or are they all in Prim?
15:42 nothingmuch either or, Corion
15:42 nothingmuch maybe nopaste is better
15:42 nothingmuch this code belongs to us, not me
15:42 autrijus gaal: they are all in Prim.
15:42 autrijus gaal: not sure how to arrange Prelude.pm
15:42 autrijus gaal: suggestions welcome
15:44 Corion Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix passes all its tests when run interactively.
15:44 mtve has quit IRC ("Terminated with extreme prejudice - dircproxy 1.0.5")
15:44 gaal autrijus, Prelude.pm shoud prolly follow S29, no? ie, Perl6::Lists etc.
15:44 Corion (v0.02)
15:45 Corion ... but I used the Makefile.PL, not the Build script now. I'll try the other.
15:45 mtve has joined #perl6
15:45 autrijus gaal: sure... the thing is it should probably be turned into AST form
15:45 autrijus to save overhead on parsing
15:45 autrijus so we need a "make" rule for it
15:45 autrijus Pugs/Prelude.hs
15:45 autrijus or something like that.
15:45 gaal you mean precomiled into every pugs instance
15:45 autrijus aye
15:45 gaal *nod* unfortunately i don't think i can help with that :)
15:45 Corion Weird. Build.PL also passes all tests. Maybe that was with Module::Build 0.2609, I've now upgraded to M::B 0.2610.
15:46 Corion Too bad/weird.
15:46 gaal isn't the interactive "." command reversible?
15:46 nothingmuch ah
15:46 gaal ie, String -> AST (or whatever the type is?)
15:46 nothingmuch Build.PL wants a new build step
15:46 nothingmuch 2.6 required IIRC
15:46 nothingmuch oh, but 2.609 is also 2.6
15:47 autrijus gaal: you mean Main.parse
15:47 autrijus gaal: write a Pugs.Compile.Perl6
15:47 autrijus akin to deparse
15:47 autrijus then we'd have reversible parse
15:47 autrijus it's actually not hard and interesting
15:47 gaal doesn't grydon's talk mention that?
15:47 Qiang has joined #perl6
15:47 autrijus grydon?
15:48 gaal graydon, sorry. http://www.venge.net/graydon/talks/mkc/html/index.html
15:48 nothingmuch that was a wonderful talk
15:48 gaal it was, and i didn't understand most of it :)
15:49 ninereasons to me, it makes sense that an infinite array is to have a finite part
15:49 autrijus gaal: oh. well, no, not really, his compiler can't gen a Makefile back
15:50 autrijus gaal: you can look at Compile.Parrot if you want to write Compile.Perl6
15:50 autrijus it will be much easier to work on .Perl6
15:50 gaal i thought there was a bit where the went back and forth between ast and object language
15:50 autrijus aye, but not ast and _source_ language
15:50 gaal autrijus, i won't have time for this unfortunately :(
15:50 autrijus that's fine :)
15:51 gaal this is my last day before Tomorrow, heh
15:51 gaal autrijus, on my part i can just offer to start Perl6:: by submitting alarm
15:52 gaal or help with the release if it's happening soonish
15:52 Corion Is there an easy fix against: pugs: cannot cast from VError "unimplemented 3-ary op: splice" (App "splice" [Val (VRef <Array>),Val (VInt 8),Val (VList [VUndef])] []) to [Char]
15:52 Corion ?
15:52 gaal Corion, how come it's a 3-op?
15:53 Corion gaal: I don't know, but that's not the problem (that's a deeper problem). I get that error in $!, but pugs dies on me before I can do anything with the error.
15:53 Corion gaal: I'm doing a 3-op in an eval, and pugs doesn't promote it to a 4-op. But I want to catch the error for now.
15:53 gaal do you perhaps have a forgotten line at the bottom of Prim?
15:53 gaal oh
15:54 Corion Anyway - I'll commit the "work" of the weekend now - prepare for sudden unexplained test changes :)
15:55 putter has joined #perl6
15:55 autrijus ok :)
15:55 gaal should i just create Perl6/ at the top level then? or in ext/? it seems natural to put in one place everything that will eventually be loaded by default into pugs, so maybe not ext
15:55 * autrijus braces for impact
15:55 gaal maybe call it Prelude in honor of Haskell
15:56 autrijus gaal: src/Prelude/Prelude.pm ?
15:56 Corion Maybe call it Foreplay , in an attempt of humor that doesn't translate well from German ;)
15:56 gaal but is it really in one module? S29 stipulates quite a few namespaces
15:56 Corion r2077 is all my fault now ;)
15:56 theorbtwo Prelude.Prelude would seem to be a rather questionable haskell namespace.
15:56 gaal (and doesn't define which one alarm is in, but i can use my imagination :)
15:56 Corion Ooops. :( I also committed my locally patched run-smoke.pl :(
15:57 Corion Can somebody with a non-broken/nonpatched util/run-smoke.pl overwrite my version please?
15:57 Corion Or can I undo such a commit?
15:57 saorge has joined #perl6
15:59 gaal Corion, i think there's svn revert for that? (not sure) or worst case, you can svn up -r2076 util/run-smoke.pl
15:59 Corion gaal: Ah, thanks!
16:00 autrijus looking at Corion's commit now
16:01 jabbot pugs - 2076 - Additional slicing tests: calculated val
16:01 jabbot pugs - 2077 - Added first stab at splice - doesn't wor
16:01 jabbot pugs - 2078 - Added svn properties:
16:01 gaal okay, i'm going off to meet a friend, see you guys later!
16:02 autrijus have fun!
16:02 gaal thanks, youu too (happy birthday too!)
16:04 justatheory has joined #perl6
16:04 putter hmm... $x = 3 , without a preceding declaration, gives an Undeclared variable error.  is this right, or should I add a test?
16:04 Corion putter: use strict; is in full effect by default nowadays.
16:04 Corion ... later, this will become optional for oneliners I guess.
16:05 putter autrijus: happy birthday ;)
16:05 ninereasons strict will be optional when running with -e
16:05 autrijus putter: thanks :)
16:06 Corion autrijus: Happy Birthday from me as well!
16:09 ingy hola
16:09 autrijus hihi ingy
16:09 * putter trying to bootstrap scheme in a half-page of non-scheme code wonders what to do next.  maybe frob the symbol table directly...
16:09 masak autrijus: is it still your birthday over there? in that case, happy $_
16:09 autrijus it was 9 minutes ago :)
16:09 wilx Happy default scalar variable? :D
16:10 masak autrijus: ouch! :)
16:10 masak wilx: happy whatever the topic happens to be, i.e. birthday
16:10 wilx Oh.
16:11 jabbot pugs - 2079 - Added EOL at EOF to t/builtins/lists/sum
16:11 nothingmuch we have some unexpected success: http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/
16:11 nothingmuch see the little yellow tiles
16:11 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/t/general/atoms.html#line_60
16:11 nothingmuch oh wait, that's not todo
16:12 nothingmuch or maybe it is
16:12 nothingmuch dunno
16:12 nothingmuch can you set a css property such that a page is blank filled on the bottom?
16:13 nothingmuch roie_m++; # looks like his fixes are doing this
16:14 autrijus ok, i'll look into failures now
16:14 putter ingy: I saw something go by about folks having difficulty finding things in the synopses.  Wanting indexing.  I've found it useful to merge the synopses into a single synopses.pod, and the a&e into another.  makes searching easy.  perhaps something to add to Bible?
16:15 * nothingmuch always managed with grep -ri
16:15 autrijus p6bible s
16:15 autrijus p6bible -q keyword
16:15 autrijus p6bible -f heading
16:15 nothingmuch and windows folks that might not have grep have google desktop
16:15 nothingmuch so they should stop their whyning
16:15 Corion nothingmuch: Windows folks also have F3.
16:16 Corion nothingmuch: body { background-color: 7FF; } /* fills the page to the bottom */
16:17 Corion Do optional lists (like ?List) work at all currently ?
16:17 theorbtwo putter: Fix your AUTHORS entry, please.
16:18 crysflame does google index the svn repo?
16:18 autrijus Corion: I very much doubt it
16:18 Corion autrijus: Ah ;)
16:20 * cognominal just received  ATTaPL. This seems to be a great book. It apparently thread together papers that independantly did not made sense to me . paper so specialized I could place them in the larger contect due to lack of prerequisite knowledge by myself)
16:21 cognominal It seems less scholar and more concrete too.
16:21 autrijus cognominal: yeah. I'm happy it helps :)
16:21 autrijus <- having just read Wadler's revised effects typing paper and Epigram team's dependent type paper
16:22 autrijus mugwump: the latter I think is your cup of tea
16:22 Corion theorbtwo: ping
16:22 theorbtwo Pong.
16:22 autrijus mugwump:  http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~txa/publ/ydtm.pdf
16:24 ingy putter: yeah, sounds good
16:24 putter "the arrival of GADTs in Haskell is a joy and a relief." - ydtm  :)
16:25 autrijus that's why I jumped on it :)
16:25 autrijus it is indeed a joy and a relief.
16:27 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
16:29 putter ingy: re pod names: s.pod, so "p6bible s" works, seems nice.  not sure what to call the combined a&e.  I use "historical.pod"... blech.  anyway, I've a hack pod combiner if a real one doesnt exist out there...
16:31 jabbot pugs - 2080 - Cleaned up splice.t to have less tests,
16:31 autrijus p6bible ae
16:31 autrijus p6bible aieeeee
16:31 putter theorbtwo: ok.
16:31 putter autrijus: ;)
16:32 xerox has joined #perl6
16:33 cognominal autrijus: this paper is still hot from the oven
16:35 * ingy has now lost 20.5lbs in 13 days
16:35 autrijus cognominal: right, that's the great thing about type theory researches :)
16:35 autrijus instant turnaround from paper to code
16:35 ingy 6.5lbs to go
16:36 larsen has joined #perl6
16:37 autrijus alright... lots of rx broken
16:38 autrijus "abc" ~~ rx:perl5/^abc$/ && $0
16:38 autrijus this breaks
16:38 autrijus basically every rx that has trailing $ breaks
16:41 jabbot pugs - 2081 - updated entry for putter in AUTHORS
16:41 Corion I didn't do it! :)
16:41 Corion (or so I hope)
16:41 autrijus I think it's roie_m.
16:41 Corion Let's blame roie_m
16:42 autrijus I further thinks that's worth delaying 6.2.1 some more to get it fixed
16:42 autrijus instead of forcing todos
16:42 * autrijus finds even more rx qq bugs
16:44 autrijus ok. I think we won't realistically hit preflight tonight :)
16:44 autrijus I'll try to get tree in a healthier state now
16:44 autrijus and we'll see if a monday release is possible
16:46 * putter wonders if folks will start thinking about time in gmt as non-local communication becomes an increasingly significant part of their lives...
16:46 autrijus we'll probably form tribes :)
16:46 autrijus as in Eastern Standard Tribe
16:47 Corion I think of gmt as almost local communication. But then, I usually communicate relative time units, like "in 8 hours" instead of "tomorrow".
16:48 crysflame putter: one of my favorite things to do on irc is to respond to a 12-hour-old conversation
16:49 crysflame presuming their clients are configured effectively, the people i address in response will receive it.. eventually
16:49 Corion r2080 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html (even though it claims r2020, I think that's when somebody broke the automagic update9
16:50 chady has joined #perl6
16:51 putter ... 30 hr/day drifting tribes...  "day of year mod 2 = 0" alternating all-nighter tribes...
16:52 Corion Hah. I think I know why the svn version doesn't update anymore - likely the Makefile gets generated in a broken way that refers to the file before The Great Renaming.
16:52 Corion Yep - looks like it in util/version_h.pl
16:53 autrijus cool. please fix :)
16:53 autrijus I'm fixing this annoying segfault in the interactive shell.
16:54 * theorbtwo wasn't too wonderful careful about that.
16:54 Corion I'm looking if my "fix" works
16:55 Corion Yay. Seems like 'include "src/pugs_version.h"' in Help.hs seems to do what I want.
16:55 Corion committed
16:55 Corion r2082
16:56 autrijus thx
16:58 Corion autrijus: How do I do side-effects from Haskell onto a passed-in array? I need to do that for splice() - what should I read/where should I steal/cargo-cult code from?
16:58 Corion Choosing the right cult is important before cargo-culting!
17:00 crysflame ha
17:00 autrijus lol
17:00 cognominal you don't choose, the particular cargo is bestowed upon you.
17:00 autrijus Corion: you want to call doArray with splice.
17:01 autrijus Corion: there is a builtin splice method to arrays.
17:01 autrijus just invoke it.
17:01 jabbot pugs - 2082 - Make Pugs mention the svn version again
17:01 Corion autrijus: Oh - I looked for that but didn't find it. Will look and use that one then, just like push/pop do.
17:01 Corion thanks
17:01 autrijus np :)
17:01 autrijus splice is also nontested
17:02 autrijus so it's fully possible that it's broken
17:02 autrijus in that case, either repair it in src/Types/Array.hs
17:02 autrijus or just for IArray in src/AST.hs
17:02 autrijus or just punt to me
17:03 * putter notices 4 "Looks like you planned N tests, but..." messages in a 1+ hour old build.
17:10 Corion Should we have eval_is warn if the eval is not fatal, as that's somewhat unexpected?
17:10 autrijus sure!
17:10 autrijus also eval_is is not lexical really
17:11 autrijus my $x = 3; eval_is('$x', 3) would fail
17:11 jabbot pugs - 2083 - * the interactive shell no longer segfau
17:11 jabbot pugs - 2084 - Promoted all tests from eval_is() to is(
17:11 autrijus that annoys me
17:11 Corion I'm hunting down (meanwhile) useless / unnecessary use of eval()
17:11 autrijus can someone think of a p6esque implementation of eval_is?
17:11 autrijus it doesn't matter if pugs can't run it; it matters that it's p6ish and preferably okayed by @larry
17:11 stevan autrijus: thats what I was trying to do with throws_ok
17:11 stevan but that wont catch parsefails
17:12 autrijus there shouldn't be any parsedfails that can't be caught by eval :-/
17:14 autrijus jabbot: seen roie_m
17:14 jabbot autrijus: roie_m was seen on Sun Apr 17 17:26:37 2005 GMT
17:14 * theorbtwo wonders if we can make PUGS_HAVE_HSPLUGINS reflect to perl6, so I can test it properly.
17:14 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:15 autrijus theorbtwo: sure... I wonder if you can make it into a regular util/config_h thing.
17:15 autrijus theorbtwo: and in any case, I'd be fine with a $?PUGS_HAVE_HSPLUGINS
17:15 theorbtwo Cool.
17:15 chady has quit IRC ("leaving")
17:15 theorbtwo Wouldn't that be $* ?
17:16 autrijus $* then.
17:17 putter autrijus: ok, that was a fun paper.  thanks!  anyone: volunteers to do an LtU entry?
17:18 stevan autrijus: well all we need for throws_ok is for that t/pugsbugs/code_blocks_as_sub_args.t to run
17:18 autrijus putter: shapr pointed me to it. not sure whether he'll LtU it or not
17:18 stevan I figure I can smartmatch the $expected_error arg, which should cover Str, Rule and Class comparisons (IIRC)
17:19 gaal heya
17:19 Corion Hmmm. No, too many false alarms for automagic _eval_  removal.
17:21 gaal autrijus: on the reversible parse idea, i think it would be hella rad if we have an option for a fully reversible AST, which yields the exact source at it came from the compilation unit. this is very useful for large refactoring tools, eg IDEs
17:21 stevan Corion: false alarsm?
17:21 Corion stevan: I was trying to automate weeding out unnecessary eval_is and eval_ok calls by doing a diag() if the eval didn't die.
17:21 autrijus gaal: preserving comments and whitespaces?
17:21 gaal yes
17:21 autrijus gaal: that would require annotations at each token level
17:21 Corion But that doesn't always work, as some stuff doesn't parse, yet still works within an eval :)
17:22 autrijus gaal: I think it's ~much easier to just attach each token with the "span" of line/column
17:22 autrijus just like GHC 6.4 does
17:22 autrijus we do it at statement level now, but it can be finer grained.
17:22 theorbtwo ...which is also useful for error messages.
17:22 gaal we already need to keep strings around for Perldoc
17:22 autrijus gaal: right, I think it's a good idea.
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17:23 theorbtwo Boggle -- it worked the first time.
17:23 autrijus try to think out some TODO tests?
17:23 autrijus or start writing S20?
17:23 gaal of course in production code all this shouldn't necessarily have to go in; and the AST can already contain optimizations
17:24 gaal which one is S20?
17:24 autrijus "debugging"
17:24 gaal oh, didn't nothingmuch start on that?
17:25 autrijus that's A20
17:26 gaal Corion has a point up there, we'd love to have partially parsable compilation units. Eclipse does it already for Java... no idea how though.
17:26 Corion I have a point where?
17:27 gaal where you say some stuff doesn't parse, and some stuff is in eval
17:27 gaal or is that crosstalk? :)
17:27 gaal Corion++; # no matter, you have a point anyway
17:28 gaal this reminds me of polyglot poems, someone just brought that up recently
17:32 pupilzeng has left "See you!"
17:35 Corion Aaah - I think I see now where the problem is. Some errors (like method lookup errors) don't set $!
17:36 * Corion goes to write a test to confirm that
17:39 autrijus good read:
17:39 autrijus http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2005/04/13/Continuations-for-Curmudgeons
17:40 autrijus (via LtU)
17:41 Corion Ah. Yes - if the method itself exists, but the signatures fail to match, $! doesn't get set. Where should that test go? Into magicals/ for $! ? Into subs/ ?
17:42 autrijus magicals I think
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17:44 Corion should I name the test dollar-underscore.t ? :)
17:47 Corion Hmmm. No, seems like I just don't understand how signatures interact. Anyway - I wrote five tests that check $!. That's good too :)
17:56 * autrijus is impressed by Corion's attention to details
17:56 Corion s!attention!obsession!, but what exactly did impress you?
17:56 autrijus just looking thru your commit diffs :
17:56 autrijus :)
17:56 * castaway ruffles Corion
17:57 * Corion boings
17:57 autrijus obsession is clearly the correct term here
17:57 Corion autrijus: I feel more like a chainsaw there, than doing detail work :)
17:57 theorbtwo Try to keep it down, Corion.
17:57 theorbtwo .oO(Or at least in your pants.)
17:58 autrijus that's ok... we are building a swiss army nuke anyway
17:58 Corion I thought today was no-pants day?
17:58 castaway eh?
17:58 castaway shame, seems I missed it
18:06 Corion Hmm. If I have sub foo($a is rw) { $a++ }; and then call it with foo(19); # that should die, and set $!, correct?
18:07 castaway why?
18:08 Corion castaway: Because it tries to write to $a. IMO, that is an error....
18:08 Corion (because $a is the constant number 19)
18:08 castaway oh, right
18:08 castaway I was stuck looking at the "rw" bit
18:09 theorbtwo "is rw" is the perl 5 model.
18:11 theorbtwo sub foo {$_[0]++} foo(19)
18:11 Corion Weird. Singled out the tests work, but in other settings, $! does not get set... But I'm too tired at the moment to pursue this further ...
18:11 Corion &
18:12 castaway later C
18:12 theorbtwo Later, Corion.
18:12 theorbtwo May your pause be refereshing!
18:20 boogie somebody can tell me, if I could write a file in pugs?
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2085 - Added tests for $!
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2086 - Backed out my eval-checks out of Test.pm
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2087 - math/log.t doesn't need eval() anymore
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2088 - chr.t doesn't need eval() anymore
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2089 - ord.t doesn't need eval() anymore
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2090 - Added test for modifying a constant
18:21 autrijus my $fh = open(">file");
18:21 autrijus $fh.say(...)
18:22 boogie autrijus: thx :)
18:26 autrijus np :)
18:27 autrijus hey, would people find my() useful?
18:27 autrijus as opposed to toplevel my()
18:27 autrijus but rather inline
18:27 autrijus ($x, my ($y), $z) = 1..3;
18:28 theorbtwo Hm?
18:28 castaway ummm
18:28 theorbtwo That doesn't already work?
18:28 stevan yuk
18:28 autrijus theorbtwo: that doesn't. all var decl is currently stmt-level only
18:28 autrijus which I think is quite limiting
18:29 autrijus but hey, nobody ever complained :)
18:29 stevan while (my $line = =$fh) would be nice though
18:29 theorbtwo It doesn't exactly lead to clear code.
18:29 theorbtwo But it is useful from time to time.
18:29 theorbtwo Also, it's specced, I think.
18:29 ninereasons "useful" is the operative word, I think.
18:29 theorbtwo stevan: foreach =$fh $line -> {} would be the normal way to do it.
18:30 autrijus for =$fh -> $line {}
18:30 theorbtwo But the way you wrote should work, if only for compatability with the fingers of p5 programmers.
18:30 theorbtwo Er, right, for, not foreach.
18:30 stevan theorbtwo: very true
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18:31 hlen i really don't like the look of unary =
18:31 hlen but oh well
18:32 theorbtwo Neither do I, hlen.
18:32 autrijus hlen: you can always write readline().
18:35 lightstep has joined #perl6
18:37 ninereasons stevan, may I msg you?
18:37 theorbtwo jabbot, seen nothingmuch?
18:37 jabbot theorbtwo: nothingmuch was seen on Mon Apr 18 16:15:28 2005 GMT
18:40 * theorbtwo wonders if there's anybody about who might be nice enough to point me to a .iso of an OSX 10.2 (Jaguar) CD, or any older MacOS CD.
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18:46 stevan ninereasons: sure
18:48 stevan theorbtwo: 10.2?
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18:50 * castaway nods.
18:50 theorbtwo 10.2 would be wonderful.
18:51 stevan uhm,...ok
18:51 stevan I got the physical CDs (there are 2), and a powerbook,.. how do I make you an image?
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18:52 theorbtwo Start disk tool, should be an option to make an image out of a disk, I think.
18:53 stevan ok,.. gimme a moment :)
18:53 * stevan putters around his hard drive looking for the right tools
18:53 theorbtwo Ah, dd if=/dev/disk1s0 bs=2k of=jaguar-1.iso
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18:55 theorbtwo Allo, pdcawley.
18:58 stevan theorbtwo: read-only, compressed or DVD/CD master?
19:00 stevan and it seems to want to make a .dmg
19:00 theorbtwo Try using dd if=/dev/disk1s0 bs=2k of=jaguar-1.iso, then bzipping the file.
19:01 jabbot pugs - 2091 - * "uniq" not yet implemented ==> un-un-e
19:01 jabbot pugs - 2092 - normalized the few tests which said plan
19:01 jabbot pugs - 2093 - Added note to self to not forget to incl
19:01 jabbot pugs - 2094 - a couple more phrases
19:01 theorbtwo Otherwise, try "compressed"; I think I can find something to deal with dmg files.
19:01 * autrijus stares at the huge flow of commits
19:02 * autrijus submits an Euro OSCON talk.
19:02 Corion autrijus: I'm not the only one suffering from commit-withdrawal
19:02 autrijus Corion: I have this feeling that summarizing them at this moment would amount to solving the halting problem.
19:03 * theorbtwo tries to remember to fix AUTHORS before release this time.
19:06 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 0.10.1/20041001]")
19:07 boogie stevan: are you there?
19:07 stevan boogie: yes
19:07 mj parsedfails example that can't be caught by eval?
19:07 mj pugs -e "eval 'my $a = [ { 1 }, { 2 } ]; say $a().ref';"
19:07 boogie stevan: CGI.pm has a header sub, and as I see, it has a bug.
19:08 stevan boogie: what's the bug?
19:08 boogie stevan: sorry, no bug, I just misunderstood the code :D
19:08 stevan :)
19:08 autrijus hrm. I try to tie the "Boot camp" image with "Perl 6 Bootstrapping" together in my talk title and fails
19:08 autrijus "Perl 6 Bootstrapping Camp"?
19:08 theorbtwo has left
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19:09 autrijus "Perl Rebooted"?
19:09 theorbtwo Note to self: hit the body of the tab, not the little x.
19:09 boogie stevan: it's strange, that you don't put \n after location or content-type, just at the "return"
19:09 theorbtwo Nah, Rebooting Perl 6 is what we're doing right now.
19:09 theorbtwo Getting it out of it's rut.
19:10 Corion has joined #perl6
19:10 theorbtwo Remember that you want \cM\cJ, and not just \n.
19:10 Corion Hmmm. Upgrade to Firefox 1.03 went seamless and it even kept all bookmarks and plugins it seems.
19:10 castaway grats Corion
19:10 theorbtwo Cool.
19:10 theorbtwo I'd expect nothing less; it's a minor secuirty flaw update.
19:10 Corion (this was from 1.0pre)
19:10 theorbtwo Oh.
19:11 Corion yep :)
19:11 jabbot pugs - 2095 - Oops! s/foreach/for/
19:11 theorbtwo In that case, I would have expected much less, very cool.
19:11 Corion I also didn't expect it, but it's very nice indeed.
19:11 stevan boogie: that is so that the $charset variable is supported
19:13 boogie stevan: yes, it's OK now. :) I just wanted to insert a set-cookie header (only as a hack not yet extending the CGI.pm) exactly before the return and I didn't find where is that "\n"
19:15 stevan boogie: I think that Location or Content-Type are supposed to be the last headers (but I may be wrong)
19:15 theorbtwo HTTP headers should be mostly order-independent.
19:16 boogie Yes, as I know, order doesn't matter.
19:21 jabbot pugs - 2096 - added end-of-file newlines to .hs files
19:23 bradb has joined #perl6
19:23 nothingmuch can i splat an idea on the chat (For a talk at YAPC::NA)
19:23 nothingmuch and get some feedback?
19:23 autrijus sure!
19:23 theorbtwo Shoot.
19:24 nothingmuch it's called "Safe sex in the 70s - robustness, KISS and the waterbed complexity theory"
19:24 nothingmuch therein is discussed:
19:24 nothingmuch where are bugs more "nasty"
19:24 nothingmuch which code needs to be more free of bugs
19:24 nothingmuch that KISS lowers bugs
19:25 nothingmuch but the waterbed theory makes them go up eventually
19:25 nothingmuch and what I normally do to keep things balanced
19:25 nothingmuch with a bit of perl 6 thrown in at the end
19:25 nothingmuch and how I think it will help
19:25 autrijus that looks disorganized :)
19:25 nothingmuch explain
19:26 theorbtwo Hm, it looks pretty interesting to me.
19:26 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
19:26 autrijus basically it's about complexity management
19:26 nothingmuch autrijus: yes, but a naive perspective into it
19:26 autrijus I'm not sure how waterbed fits here
19:27 nothingmuch it introduces the 70s to the title ;-)
19:27 autrijus because KISS is about "chopping off" the going up part
19:27 autrijus and only keeping the low part
19:27 autrijus so explain the waterbed?
19:27 nothingmuch well, in the last 3 things I wrote i've managed to get far more KISS by raising the complexity a bit
19:27 nothingmuch for example, making a script into 3 pipelined scripts required:
19:28 nothingmuch locking, transactions, and a protocol
19:28 autrijus right, that's called modular design, but that still doesn't quite explain the waterbed :)
19:28 nothingmuch but eventually made things work out much better
19:28 nothingmuch another example: anticipated growth of project is in a series of modular objects
19:28 nothingmuch interacting with one object
19:28 nothingmuch how complexity was moved from N space to constant space
19:29 nothingmuch by making the one object a bit too big for XP heads maybe
19:29 nothingmuch but keeping the N objects very lean and maintainable
19:29 nothingmuch the one object was refactored mercilessly
19:29 nothingmuch but still has about 500 lines of code
19:29 nothingmuch and the objects that support it directly are another 500 or so
19:29 nothingmuch but the hard parts are each no more than 100
19:30 autrijus ok, so focus on that
19:30 nothingmuch which work reliably, even in flakey situations (like relying on rsh)
19:30 nothingmuch what do you mean? focus on examples?
19:30 autrijus yes
19:30 nothingmuch or focus on N -> 1 conversion?
19:30 nothingmuch ah, ofcourse
19:30 autrijus focus on how one can practically refactor the problem space
19:30 nothingmuch examples are the means to convey the message
19:31 nothingmuch but i would like to identify to in the talk: where KISS fit in
19:31 nothingmuch what was the cost of forcing KISS
19:31 autrijus sure, but I mean, stress in your abstract that this will be a "from the trenches" talk
19:31 nothingmuch or what I had to do to allow more KISS (by pulling up the waterbed)
19:31 nothingmuch hmm, good point
19:31 nothingmuch any more tips?
19:31 autrijus where it will be much easier to get accepted
19:31 autrijus because otherwise you'll sound like another XP theorist
19:31 nothingmuch ah... nope
19:31 * nothingmuch has never gotten along well with XP
19:32 nothingmuch mainly because i haven't yet worked in teams
19:32 autrijus I think you can drop the waterbed really.
19:32 autrijus waterbed is about "complexity is a constant in a problem space"
19:32 autrijus which clearly doesn't apply
19:32 autrijus because complexity grows in your case
19:32 theorbtwo Well, no, it doesn't.
19:32 nothingmuch i keep getting shoved in for quick ninja jobs
19:32 nothingmuch but then i won't have the 70s ;-)
19:32 nothingmuch hmm
19:33 nothingmuch i remembered complexity is: you shove it down here, it bulbs up there
19:33 nothingmuch that's why i liked the metaphor
19:33 autrijus that may be true when you are designing general-purpose tools (like perl 6)
19:34 autrijus but I think for specific projects, like the one you are discussing, good modeling really kills the complexity
19:34 autrijus not only shoving it under the carpet
19:34 autrijus which the waterbed theory would suggest
19:34 putter complexity reduction _and_ relocation
19:34 autrijus so in my mind your talk is more like
19:34 nothingmuch what I will propose as solutions on case by case basis
19:34 autrijus "KISSing the unsighty frog"
19:35 nothingmuch (safe sex while dieting - ask ingy!)
19:35 autrijus "refactoring seemingly impossibly complex problems into managable ones"
19:35 nothingmuch hmm, i don't think it's seemingly impossible
19:35 nothingmuch anywho, the ideas I want to bring up as silver bullets: forcing overmodularization when you find nothing else to do
19:35 autrijus ok, then "divide and conquer complexity as it increases"
19:36 nothingmuch raking down knowlege to the lower hierarchies in the object connectivity graph, as a rule of thumb
19:36 theorbtwo The sexy army theory: Divide, conquer, and KISS.
19:36 autrijus theorbtwo: ooh
19:36 nothingmuch heh
19:37 autrijus but, the thing is, I (as a hacker) is very interested in hearing your real world stories and the Kata you formed
19:37 autrijus but any overabstraction is an instant turnoff :)
19:37 autrijus that may just be me, though.
19:37 nothingmuch it's more of a joke really
19:38 theorbtwo Aye.
19:38 theorbtwo It can really go either way.
19:38 theorbtwo Too much of either leaves me with a "well, duh" feeling.
19:38 autrijus true that.
19:38 autrijus although I like the Kata imagery.
19:38 nothingmuch maybe if we shove 'post-mortum' in the begining of the premise somehow then it will be obvious that this is "real"
19:38 nothingmuch yeah
19:38 nothingmuch 1 minute of theory
19:38 * nothingmuch has a turnoff from all those 'testing is cool, xp says so'
19:38 nothingmuch and then 'here's how you write a test file'
19:39 nothingmuch 20 minutes of examples
19:39 nothingmuch i like to see a little of both:
19:39 nothingmuch find a problem, or some related problems in the real world
19:39 nothingmuch try to think of them as related by abstracting a bit
19:39 nothingmuch figuring out what the problem really is
19:39 nothingmuch and then reapplying to reality
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19:39 autrijus yeah, that works pretty good. try to work that into your talk abstract, perhaps?
19:40 nothingmuch sure will
19:40 nothingmuch ooh, 'complexity water-bed' is an interesting google
19:40 * nothingmuch wonders when he started using google like a verb
19:41 * putter still trying to nail core idea...  "proper placement of simplicity"?
19:42 putter eg, "KISSing the _right_ frogs"
19:42 nothingmuch http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bRhp4J6Xz4MJ:www.lohutok.net/talks/p6design.pdf+water-bed+complexity&amp;hl=en&amp;start=2&amp;client=safari
19:42 nothingmuch putter++
19:43 lightstep has quit IRC ("applying to real life")
19:43 nothingmuch and then "but you still had the same amount of water in the mattress" http://www.garbett.org/?q=node/3
19:44 autrijus "Princess 101: Kissing the right frogs"
19:44 nothingmuch but he sort of contradicts it in a logical way
19:44 nothingmuch complexity is not decreased
19:44 nothingmuch it's simply spread out
19:44 nothingmuch but if it's spread out to thin, then it kicks back
19:45 nothingmuch i.e., you want something to be both shallow, and not too broad
19:45 nothingmuch but you can't
19:45 nothingmuch what I think i sort of learned to do from those things is to choose where I want it shallow
19:45 nothingmuch because being broad in a limited space is OK
19:45 nothingmuch versus where I prefer that it's deep
19:45 nothingmuch the rationale is: it's easier to read shallow code
19:45 nothingmuch but it's harder to piece it together
19:46 nothingmuch if there are too many chunks of shallow code, then you grow too broad to fit in memory
19:46 ezra_ has joined #perl6
19:46 nothingmuch and even exposé can't help you
19:46 nothingmuch i think the ideas are supposed to help you organize breadth
19:47 nothingmuch so that you can be shallow, but broad in an expected way
19:47 nothingmuch and have bunches of shallow and bunches of deep interacting with each other
19:47 nothingmuch so that it's shallow in bits at a time
19:47 nothingmuch that's why the waterbed theory of complexity popped up initially
19:47 nothingmuch does it make sense?
19:48 theorbtwo How to choose where you want the lumps in your waterbed?
19:49 putter Techniques for kissing on the waterbed.
19:49 * castaway is all lost.
19:49 nothingmuch lumps in the waterbed
19:49 nothingmuch ick
19:50 Khisanth castaway: go geta water bed? :)
19:50 castaway no thanks, they're all so wobbly
19:50 Khisanth nothingmuch: that just means the AC is turned too high
19:51 jabbot pugs - 2097 - Added EOLs at EOFs.
19:51 jabbot pugs - 2098 - Added SVN properties in t/:
19:51 nothingmuch Khisanth: you think i have the money for an AC /and/ a shag carpet?
19:51 sahadev has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
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19:52 Khisanth a what carpet?
19:52 castaway shag!
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19:53 nothingmuch dude, like, the thing you put in your van
19:54 nothingmuch xrl.us is being slow
19:55 nothingmuch http://xrl.us/fs6c
19:56 putter iblech: beat me to it.  there are still a few left (files wo EOLs at EOF).  are you going to do them?
20:00 putter nothingmuch: Princess 101: Choosing which frogs to KISS, and where to lie on the waterbed.
20:00 * nothingmuch sort of prefers 'safe sex in the 70s'
20:00 nothingmuch i think it sums it up well ;-)
20:01 sahadev has joined #perl6
20:01 nothingmuch quick poll: you are going to attend the talk because:
20:01 nothingmuch it's interesting
20:01 nothingmuch you don't want to be impolite and not come
20:01 nothingmuch you're not going to anyway
20:02 castaway you missed "theres nothing else on right now"
20:02 autrijus what castaway said
20:02 autrijus but, 4am!
20:02 nothingmuch those are both your choices? how rude!
20:02 castaway I cant tell what Ill go to and what not, until I see the entire plan
20:02 * autrijus sleeps. *wave* &
20:02 nothingmuch ciao autrijus!
20:02 castaway nope I didnt chose one, just said you missed it
20:02 nothingmuch ah
20:02 nothingmuch =)
20:03 * castaway currently has no idea what its about ,)
20:03 castaway night autrijus
20:05 lapax has left
20:05 nothingmuch well, i'll submit what we've got
20:06 castaway my order of picking things goes "interesting subjects" and then "I know that guy" (and sometimes vice versa ,)
20:06 * nothingmuch 's too
20:06 putter g'night.
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20:11 jabbot pugs - 2099 - Cleanups of the HTTP and HTML of http-se
20:11 jabbot pugs - 2100 - Added EOLs at EOFs and appropriate svn:m
20:11 jabbot pugs - 2101 - Added a small README to examples/network
20:13 * putter wonders just how hostile "waterbed" talk sounds in radically genderskewed groups...
20:13 nothingmuch define genderskewed
20:14 nothingmuch mostly male?
20:15 putter yes.  especially of a two orders of magnitude to one flavor.
20:15 iblechbot has quit IRC (No route to host)
20:15 PerlJam putter: to those people that know perl, there is no hostility.
20:15 PerlJam (no matter the gender)
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20:16 theorbtwo Part of the point of YAPC is that it's supposed to be laid back.
20:16 castaway but not *that* laid back ,)
20:16 theorbtwo But from looking about last year, less then 1/4 of those attending are female.
20:16 Khisanth there are people hostile towards waterbeds? wouldn't that be ... abit messy?
20:16 * nothingmuch wonders how much it would cost to shag-carpet the event place
20:16 nothingmuch location, rather
20:16 Khisanth nothingmuch: too much :)
20:17 theorbtwo I doubt the 98 chestnutters would like it.
20:17 nothingmuch that would make it very laid back though
20:17 nothingmuch we could put those space chairs
20:17 osfameron has joined #perl6
20:17 nothingmuch and light the place with lava lamps
20:17 castaway :)
20:17 * nothingmuch so wanted to grow up in that era
20:18 nothingmuch perhaps i still do
20:18 justatheory has quit IRC ()
20:19 wolverian porting my recent p5 module to p6 feels nice. I can really appreciate gather/take more now. :)
20:19 nothingmuch wait till it bites you
20:19 wolverian it wouldn't do that. :/
20:19 nothingmuch it shouldn't have been lazy, or at least if it was, it should be all or nothing kind of lazy
20:20 nothingmuch it should be great for OBFus though
20:20 nothingmuch generate the elements of an array in a gather/take
20:21 nothingmuch and modify the index accessing them in the block
20:21 nothingmuch with modulu arithmetic
20:21 nothingmuch use that to de-shuffle a shuffled split //, "Just another Perl hacker"
20:21 nothingmuch blammo, readability flattenned with a steam roller
20:22 wolverian heh.
20:23 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
20:23 * stevan wonders if nothingmuch has gotten into Larry's blue ice cubes or not
20:23 Khisanth he replaced the sugar with ice?
20:23 wolverian how useful is using a 'Str' type in a signature? I mean, just about everything stringifies, no? :)
20:24 nothingmuch i reckon it would force stringification
20:24 wolverian I guess I want that, then. maybe. hmm. ok.
20:24 stevan Khisanth: if it's blue I dont think it matters what its made out of :)
20:29 nothingmuch stevan: yup, that's a good analysis
20:29 nothingmuch things that are blue and have the same effect:
20:29 nothingmuch cheese
20:29 nothingmuch popsicles
20:29 nothingmuch uhm
20:29 nothingmuch i can't think of any valid blue food
20:30 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
20:32 osfameron_ blue M&Ms ?
20:33 nothingmuch good point
20:34 theorbtwo blueberries?
20:34 gaal blue cheese?
20:34 nothingmuch blueberries are purple
20:34 nothingmuch and blue cheese is dangerous
20:35 nothingmuch gaal: i have elidel
20:35 nothingmuch it burns so far
20:35 nothingmuch in the face
20:35 nothingmuch but it's helping with the elboes
20:35 nothingmuch w
20:35 gaal yes, it can do that at first. /msg?
20:35 nothingmuch sure
20:38 mj my %conf = ( each => 0 );
20:38 mj say %conf{'each'}.ref ~ ' ' ~ %conf<each>.ref;
20:38 mj Int Array::Slice ... r2061
20:41 jabbot pugs - 2102 - added #!/usr/bin/pugs to a couple of tes
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20:47 theorbtwo G'night, pugsers.
20:47 putter G'night, theorbtwo.
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20:49 Qiang blue screen
20:54 mj Array to hash?   for @prep_index -> $key { %index{$key} = 1; }
20:54 PerlJam ick.
20:54 PerlJam %index{@array} >>= 1   # or whatever the operator du jour is.
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21:00 Corion r2097 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html ... good night!
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21:01 mj thanks, but not with Pugs yet
21:01 mj I was thinking about %index = hash reverse @index.kv;, but index 0 corrupts it.
21:02 gaal so >>+<< 1 it :)
21:02 * gaal zzz&
21:06 mj gaal: %index? how?
21:09 ninereasons mj, are you just trying to say "my %hash = hash @array.reverse;
21:17 nothingmuch thinking more, i think i want to make a c2.com page: BadBreath
21:17 nothingmuch a subset of CodeSmell that make KISSing hard
21:17 nothingmuch =D
21:22 mj no, I am trying for @index -> $key { %index{$key} = 1; }  .. for $some exists in @index testing
21:22 mj next if %index{$some};
21:22 mj push @index, $some
21:31 ninereasons perl5ish would be something like "map{ %index{$_} ++} @array"  mj
21:31 ninereasons that might work
21:32 ninereasons but what PerlJam said is the preferrable idiom, IMO
21:33 * putter putter wonders if there is a p6 idiom list somewhere...
21:33 ninereasons :) you're building it, I think, putter
21:34 putter ;)
21:34 mj g'night ... see some Pugs r2061 outputs .... http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/pugs/tests/tut-output/test03.p6.html
21:35 ninereasons night, mj
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21:38 putter mj: nifty...
21:41 putter is anyone doing automatic html-ification of pugs?  specifically, pod2html'ing examples/?
21:42 stevan putter: look at examples/tutorial-generator (or something like that)
21:45 putter neat.  is anyone running a webserver which serves html'ified copies of the assorted pods in pugs?
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21:57 crysflame putter: i think ingy wrote a kwiki that uses pod as its backend once
21:59 ingy aye
21:59 ingy I think it is down at the moment
22:01 jabbot pugs - 2103 - find other src files, some minor fixes a
22:02 putter crysflame: thanks.  i was also using pods on the parrot vm twiki.  and it provided a pod2htmlified view of cvs source and doc files.  but the twiki was cracked, my domain was smashed, and i'm still not really back on the air.  or i'd do it for pugs in a second. :(
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23:21 machack666 what is the expected result of comparing junctions?
23:21 mugwump any(true,false,maybe)
23:22 machack666 $j = (6|7);
23:22 machack666 $j == $j
23:22 mugwump well, any of (6,7) == any of (6,7), so true
23:22 machack666 > ((bool::false | bool::true))
23:22 machack666 that's what I'm currently getting
23:23 machack666 I would expect a true value
23:23 mugwump my tongue-in-cheek answer was closer to the truth than I thought!
23:23 machack666 I guess it's saying that some of the elements match some of the other elements
23:23 machack666 which some elements do not match
23:23 machack666 s/which/while/
23:23 machack666 sounds like a maybe to me
23:24 machack666 we can also construct some logically implausible junctions.
23:24 machack666 $j = 6&7
23:24 * crysflame watches with interest
23:24 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
23:25 machack666 obviously, this is only useful when comparing againns other juctions
23:25 machack666 as a normal scalar is never 6 and 7 at the same time
23:25 machack666 (that's actually how I got on the tangent above)
23:26 machack666 (6&7) == (6&7)
23:26 machack666 > ((bool::false | bool::true))
23:26 osfa has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
23:26 crysflame 6&7 means.. 6 or 7?
23:27 * crysflame tries to follow (6|7) vs (6&7) and fails
23:27 crysflame given all(6,7) == all(6,7), 50% of the results are false and 50% are true
23:27 mugwump 6&7 is the same as all(6,7)
23:27 crysflame 6==6, 6==7, 7==6, 7==7
23:27 crysflame which collapses to what pugs says, i guess
23:27 crysflame cool
23:27 mugwump 6|7 is the same as any(6,7)
23:28 machack666 ok, so the all case I can see why it breaks down
23:28 machack666 but what about the any case
23:28 machack666 shouldn't that just return a bool::true?
23:28 crysflame any(6, 7) == any(6, 7)
23:29 mugwump in bool context, yes
23:29 crysflame hmm
23:29 machack666 what about in scalar context?
23:30 machack666 is that the "maybe" refered to above? ;)
23:30 machack666 or just true, but indeterminant
23:30 machack666 (or irrelevant)
23:30 mugwump yes, it's irrelevant
23:31 * mugwump nods sagely to make it look like he knows more than nothing
23:31 * machack666 needs to feed his rugmonkeys
23:31 machack666 that sounds bad, actually...
23:31 machack666 :D
23:32 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:33 mugwump ok, I think I understand why $j = (6|7); $i = ($j == $j) makes $i a superposition of true/false
23:33 mugwump so that this works:
23:34 mugwump if ($j == $j) { say "Ok" }
23:35 mugwump if (!($j == $j)) { say "Ok" }
23:35 mugwump if $j is any(6,7), both should OK
23:35 mugwump if $j is all(6,7), neither should OK
23:36 mugwump pugs> (6&7) == (6&7)
23:36 mugwump ((bool::false & bool::true))
23:36 mugwump pugs> (6|7) == (6|7)
23:36 mugwump ((bool::false | bool::true))
23:36 mugwump pugs>
23:37 mugwump It might not seem to make sense that the return value of a comparison is not a simple bool, but if what you're comparing isn't tangible either, that's what you get :)
23:37 crysflame oh, that makes sense
23:37 crysflame any(false, true) vs all(false, true)
23:38 crysflame ow my head
23:38 crysflame it doesn't make sense anymore :(
23:39 mugwump in a SQL query, when you define a table alias, you're defining an entity which is a superposition of all the tuples in the table.
23:39 mugwump So, when you use the expression (mytable.val = "SomeValue"), the "value" of that expression is a filter, not a boolean
23:39 * machack666 returns to the discussion
23:43 machack666 pugs> $j = 1 ^ 2 ^ 3;
23:43 machack666 (1 ^ 2 ^ 3)
23:43 machack666 pugs> $j == $j
23:43 machack666 ((bool::true ^ bool::false ^ bool::false) ^
23:43 machack666 (bool::true ^ bool::false ^ bool::false))
23:43 machack666 let's decipher this one
23:45 crysflame ^?
23:50 machack666 so in boolean context, a junction is true if it has some degree of truth?  i.e., bool::true is on of the junctive arguments in the result?
23:50 machack666 or is that over simplifying?
23:51 jabbot pugs - 2104 - quote generator: read in from file, chan
23:51 machack666 using the SQL analogy, if we retrieve any rows with our filter, it's true.
23:53 machack666 hmm... junctive combining is only working left-associatively.
23:53 machack666 or it is to sayis working differently than the right.
23:53 machack666 pugs> (1 | 2 | 3)
23:53 machack666 (1 | 2 | 3)
23:53 machack666 pugs> ((1 | 2) | 3)
23:54 machack666 (1 | 2 | 3)
23:54 machack666 pugs> (1 | (2 | 3))
23:54 machack666 ((1 | 2) | (1 | 3))
23:55 machack666 while those are equivalent, they should collapse to the same junction, according to S09
23:56 mugwump sure.  make a failing test for that last bit if you like :)
23:56 machack666 I'm trying to figure out how to stringify a junction
23:57 machack666 "$j" just gives me a junction back...
23:57 ninereasons has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:57 machack666 that's not a lot of help... :D
23:57 mugwump there's a .values method

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