Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-21

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 ingy I think I had the wrong password file
00:00 mugwump ingy: just sent you a patch to YAML for 5.6.1...
00:00 ingy cool
00:00 ingy I'll be back in a couple hours
00:00 ingy then I can release it
00:01 ingy mugwump: fyi the freepan jail is freebsd
00:01 mugwump yar
00:01 * mugwump & # lunch
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00:27 stevan autrijus: ping
00:28 stevan anyone ping?
00:28 shapr pong?
00:28 stevan I am working on a major Test.pm refactor and I would like to discuss it
00:28 stevan shapr!!!
00:29 shapr hiya stevan!
00:29 stevan hows things up north
00:29 shapr Back down to freezing, I can't unicycle in just shorts now.
00:30 shapr But we're getting more sun all the time.
00:30 stevan ouch, it was hot here today
00:30 stevan I was building playground equip for the kids,.. I think I actually got a little sunburn :)
00:30 shapr Wow, cool, I love playgrounds.
00:31 stevan it was interesting,.. the directions were good up to a point
00:31 stevan then they kind of stoped
00:31 shapr heh :-)
00:31 shapr That's when it's good to have a leatherman.
00:31 stevan LOL
00:31 stevan I had a large rubber mallet,.. which works just as well :)
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01:38 stevan I wonder if I can refactor Test::is() to use a smart-match (~~) and then get rid of Test::like(), etc?
01:38 stevan Since the smart-match should handle all cases polymorphic-ly
01:54 Alias_ Might I suggest not?
01:54 Alias_ being DWIM and smart could be quite bad in a test suite
01:55 oylenshpeegul has joined #perl6
01:55 stevan Alias_: however many people use is() for more than just Str types (which is what the signature is)
01:56 stevan therefore relying on auto-stringification
01:56 Alias_ say what?
01:57 Alias_ So anything P5 that is( something, undef, ... ) is no longer valid?
01:57 stevan the signature for 'is' is 'is (Str $got, Str $expected, Str ?$desc)'
01:57 stevan Alias_: I am talking about p6
01:59 Alias_ stevan: And I'm talking about the implication for porting over the million lines of code that use is
01:59 Alias_ :)
02:01 stevan Alias_: it should still be able to handle is(something, undef, ...)
02:01 stevan pugs -e 'say undef ~~ undef ?? "true" :: "false"'
02:01 stevan prints "true"
02:01 stevan pugs -e 'say 1 ~~ undef ?? "true" :: "false"'
02:01 stevan prints "false"
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03:11 jabbot pugs - 2189 - This is a fairly large refactor of Test.
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03:49 Alias_ grr.... (wanting purl)
03:49 Alias_ autrijus?
03:49 Alias_ oh, not even here
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04:17 masak morning
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05:44 mj morning
05:44 autrijus hey
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05:56 Alias_ aha!
05:56 Alias_ Greetings fearless overlord
05:56 Alias_ A word if I may?
05:56 autrijus hey Alias_.
05:57 Alias_ You got my forwarded email about M:Install?
05:57 autrijus yes I did. I don't have 5.00504 here, and I'm not sure if include('ExtUtils::AutoInstall') (as suggested in the POD) will cure it
05:58 autrijus I thought it would, but I simply had no experience with 5.00504.
05:58 autrijus rindolf volunteered to investigate.
05:58 Alias_ neato
05:58 autrijus hadn't heard from him, though
05:58 Alias_ I was thinking that you could actually modify what gets included, based on the perl version dependency
05:59 autrijus actually if you declare a perl()
05:59 autrijus err
05:59 autrijus require( perl => ... )
05:59 Alias_ right
05:59 autrijus then include_deps uses that info to calculate depdendency.
05:59 autrijus as does all _deps, I think
05:59 autrijus it's already there
05:59 autrijus that's why we depend on Module::CoreList
05:59 Alias_ ok
05:59 Alias_ So why isn't ExtUtils::AutoInstall included now?
06:00 Alias_ .... (automatically)
06:00 autrijus Alias_: there isn't a very good reason. patch Module::Install::AutoInstall to add a line of include('ExtUtils::AutoInstall'), remove the bootstrap block and test that for me?
06:00 autrijus I'll roll a new M::I from that
06:01 Alias_ The second half of that was your use of /usr/bin/perl
06:01 Alias_ I know even less about that issue
06:01 autrijus this is weird because I use $^X throughout.
06:02 Alias_ I know all of my tests are done as /usr/bin/perl... but the test harness should fix that right?
06:02 Alias_ It will run the test file with the appropriate version?
06:02 autrijus 5.0050x has an old harness
06:02 autrijus that doesn't fix that.
06:02 autrijus even 5.00600 has that.
06:02 autrijus oh and old EUMM too.
06:03 Alias_ So maybe if ( < 5.006 ) { load Test::Harness; replace appropriate function; }
06:03 autrijus that's why in Pugs we include our own version of Harness 2.46
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06:03 autrijus Alias_: but I'm not sure that's the way to go. some people just remove the #! line from their tests
06:04 autrijus some people don't care about #!.
06:04 Alias_ I need them to encorce compulsory -w
06:04 Alias_ enforce
06:04 autrijus #!perl -w
06:04 autrijus is the canonical way
06:04 Alias_ According to reporter, that's just as bad
06:04 autrijus oh. his PATH perl is not his $^X perl.
06:04 Alias_ right
06:04 autrijus a new set of FileSpec, EUMM and Harness would fix that long ago.
06:04 Alias_ He has normal perl, with a non-path 5.005 install
06:05 Alias_ That's how he was testing it
06:05 autrijus I'm not sure if it's a great idea to include them with every M::I.
06:05 Alias_ I know
06:05 autrijus but in any case I don't think it's fair to say it's a M::I problem :)
06:05 Alias_ But maybe one could do some form of selective patching
06:05 autrijus if you use EU::MM it will just fail as hard.
06:05 Alias_ <him> "I just run Makefile.PL and expect it to work"
06:06 Alias_ <me> "I'm just a dumb M:I user... I follow the instuctions and expect it to work"
06:06 Alias_ :)
06:06 autrijus ok. well, if you'd like, I can just mandate 5.6.x for M::I users ;)
06:06 Alias_ Still... some form of auto-patching M:I:Legacy would be handy :)
06:06 Alias_ hahahaha
06:06 autrijus but somehow that doesn't seem right.
06:06 Alias_ No, that would be even worse
06:07 Alias_ I still take 2/3rd of my work at 5.005
06:07 Alias_ Maybe it's time to make the jump
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06:07 autrijus auto-patching is a great idea, but that means I need to setup an outofpath vanilla 5.005 to test and patch things
06:07 Alias_ Maybe this dude has a HOWTO for setting it up
06:07 autrijus which I'm sad to report that it's not my forte. I will very happily accept patches.
06:07 lapax has quit IRC ()
06:07 Alias_ I've also wanted some form of pre-configured VMWare-like image for years
06:08 Alias_ So I can do consistent 5.005 testing
06:08 Alias_ "Run test, revert to start"
06:08 autrijus but feel free to switch to M::B if you want 5.005 sanity. or maybe it doesn't have that sanity either, not sure
06:08 Alias_ It's an existing problem with the CPAN Testers system too
06:08 autrijus (you can, in M::I, just rename Makefile.PL to Build.PL)
06:08 Flash___ is now known as Flash_
06:08 Alias_ Because they install stuff, stuff is installed, and problems with missing modules don't get caught
06:08 autrijus right, that is a known problem that I also don't have time to help :-/
06:09 Alias_ me either
06:09 Alias_ :)
06:09 autrijus so... feel free to investigate; if you want to dump M::I for EU::MM (which may still break too), that is fine by me too, and sorry for the problems.
06:09 Alias_ Well... I don't WANT to :)
06:09 autrijus I'm pretty sure M::B doesn't break in that regard, but it may in other regards.
06:10 Alias_ I like M:I, and I've already commited 90% of my work to it
06:10 Alias_ It would take days-weeks to switch again
06:11 Alias_ Doing incremental releases on 65 modules to enforce a new repository-wide policy sucks ass
06:11 Alias_ As you should know
06:11 autrijus I know it very well.
06:11 Alias_ I'm actually looking at write an increment script
06:12 Alias_ Use PPI to hack the versions higher, add a Changes entry, and trigger my module build script for each one
06:12 Alias_ That, or somehow adding a backend database to the module builder :)
06:13 Alias_ "How to know when you have released too much shit"
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06:38 autrijus Juerd: ping
06:38 autrijus Juerd: consider these:
06:38 Juerd AHHH
06:38 Juerd You're scary!
06:39 Juerd I *just* turned on my screen.
06:39 autrijus :D
06:39 autrijus my @a = 1,2,3;
06:39 autrijus this obvious works
06:39 autrijus my @a = (1,2,3);
06:39 autrijus what about this? `=` flattens, right?
06:39 autrijus so it's the same as
06:39 autrijus my @a = [1,2,3]
06:39 Juerd First one is (my @a = 1), 2, 3
06:40 autrijus oh. right.
06:40 autrijus so, never mind
06:40 autrijus my @a = (1,2,3);
06:40 autrijus my @a = [1,2,3]
06:40 autrijus are these two the same thing?
06:40 Juerd Third one is, I hope, my @a; @a[0] = [1,2,3]
06:40 autrijus what about
06:40 autrijus my @a = (1,(2,3));
06:40 Juerd They're the same thing according to whatever was the spec when P6Now was written, I think it's been changed back to sanity in the meantime
06:41 Juerd Plural context, so list in list flattens, so 3 element list.
06:41 autrijus my @a = (1,(2,(3)));
06:41 autrijus even this?
06:41 Juerd Yes
06:41 autrijus my @a = (1,[2,[3]]); # but not this
06:41 Juerd my @a = ((((("hug"))))) too.
06:41 Juerd Indeed, [] is not (), and this is exactly why they must be different
06:42 autrijus so, to recap
06:42 autrijus (,) always flattens at plural context
06:42 autrijus [,] never do
06:42 Juerd comma in singular context makes () behave like []
06:42 autrijus right
06:42 autrijus now, consider
06:42 autrijus my $x = (1);
06:42 Juerd (so to speak - in reality, () only groups)
06:42 autrijus my $x = (1,);
06:42 Juerd my $x = 1;
06:42 Juerd my $x = [1];
06:43 autrijus my $x = ();
06:43 autrijus what is () anyway?
06:43 Juerd () is two things
06:43 Juerd 1. When used in subscript-like syntax, it calls the sub on its LHS
06:43 autrijus yeah, ignore that
06:43 autrijus we are at term level
06:44 Juerd 2. When used in any other situation, it merely groups for precedence.
06:44 autrijus so it should be a syntax error?
06:44 autrijus but p5 accepts it just fine.
06:44 autrijus my @x = (); # and this is natural
06:44 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:45 autrijus should it be considered "," with zero elements?
06:45 autrijus if so, then isn't (1) inconsistent?
06:45 autrijus if not, what then?
06:45 Juerd I think (\s*) in scalar context is a different way to write undef.
06:45 autrijus what about list context?
06:45 autrijus or rather, plural context
06:45 autrijus is () the same as not() ?
06:45 Juerd Then it's an empty list
06:45 Juerd Just like with return
06:46 Juerd return;  # return wantarray ? () : undef;  # perl 5
06:46 Juerd I have a problem with
06:46 autrijus hrm, () is the same as not().
06:46 Juerd my @foo = [ 1, 2 ]
06:46 Juerd versus
06:46 Juerd my @foo = ([1, 2])
06:46 Juerd Should be different for feeling, but are the same, and that really doesn't please me
06:47 autrijus I think it's a mess ;)
06:47 autrijus so why can't we say that (1) is always the same as (1,) ?
06:47 autrijus since () means (,)
06:47 Juerd Because that screws (1 + 2) * 3 into $aref * 3, which makes little sense
06:48 autrijus aha.
06:48 castaway morning folks
06:48 Juerd Hi
06:48 autrijus Juerd: so, three classes of things
06:48 * Juerd breakfast, shower, to_office
06:48 Juerd ttyl
06:48 autrijus ttyl
06:49 nothingmuch ingy++
06:49 * castaway is already in_office :)
06:49 ingy hola
06:50 ingy is there a way to toggle between to windows in irssi?
06:50 bsb Hi.  "GHC=ghc-6.5 perl Makefile.PL" gives me a ghc-pkg usage message
06:50 bsb Should inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm line 178 have an $ENV{GHC} option like line 147?
06:50 bsb fixed it for me
06:51 Juerd ingy: meta+digit
06:51 * Juerd is skipping the office thing to get more time for fun
06:51 castaway sure, ingy..
06:52 castaway alt-# gets you the # window, for eg
06:52 castaway C-p and C-n are previous/next
06:52 * Juerd never understood minus-notation for key presses. It's like "press alt, then release #"
06:53 autrijus Juerd: are [1], [1,] always the same?
06:54 Juerd Yes
06:54 autrijus and is
06:54 autrijus [term] and [(term)] always the same?
06:54 Juerd Yes
06:54 Juerd [] provides plural context
06:54 autrijus I see.
06:54 autrijus so although they may parse differently
06:54 Juerd In which comma, arrays and function calls all flatten
06:54 autrijus the end result is always the same
06:54 Juerd Note: arrays, not arrayREFs
06:55 autrijus sure
06:55 ingy so no way to toggle between window 6 and window 66?
06:55 autrijus so it's like [term] is really \(scalar (*term))
06:55 Juerd I'm not sure.
06:55 Juerd I don't understand or see the use for rvalue *.
06:56 autrijus it provides the plural context, no?
06:56 autrijus or is it the "list" marker?
06:56 Juerd I don't know
06:56 autrijus eh...
06:56 Juerd But providing plural context would make it an alias for "list"
06:56 autrijus print(*@_);
06:56 autrijus print(*@foo);
06:56 Juerd Which at some point we decided it was not
06:56 autrijus print(list @foo);
06:56 Juerd print already has a *@slurpy signature
06:56 autrijus right. assume it doesn't
06:57 Juerd So the caller doesn't have to force context
06:57 Juerd Oh, right, that was it, * spreads over parameters
06:57 autrijus assume it just take an nonslurpy array
06:57 Juerd Assuming they're all slurpy.
06:57 Juerd i.e. substr(*@param)
06:57 autrijus is "slurpy" the same concept as "plural context" ?
06:57 Juerd No
06:57 autrijus and somehow `substr(list @param)` won't work?
06:57 castaway ingy: umm, Id have to look in the manual.. sec :)
06:57 Juerd Slurpy provides that context, but it is the thing that deals with arguments
06:58 Juerd autrijus: Indeed, because list @param would still be in singular context, returning an arrayref
06:58 Juerd autrijus: Which makes list a very inefficient noop
06:58 Juerd autrijus: list @param in singular context, I expect, is the same, semantically, as [ @param ]
06:59 autrijus [1,,,3]
06:59 autrijus is it the same as [1,3] ?
06:59 Juerd There was some discussion about repeated commas, I'm not sure about the outcome
06:59 autrijus (it is in p5. I assume p6 isn't going to change that)
07:00 autrijus so, let me write a lot of tests... ;)
07:01 autrijus Juerd: so essentially the runtime context has two different bits
07:01 autrijus one is envContext, which is either CxtNull, CxtOne, or CxtMany
07:01 autrijus one is envType, which is a Type
07:02 autrijus the Type is entirely ignored in CxtNull
07:02 autrijus and serves as the member type for CxtMany
07:03 autrijus only I'm not sure about the name anymore... I think I'll keep saying CxtVoid, CxtScalar and CxtList
07:03 autrijus but it is indeed maximally confusing.
07:03 autrijus we have a scalar container class, a scalar value type, and a scalar context.
07:03 Juerd autrijus: Yes
07:03 autrijus IScalar, VScalar and CxtScalar
07:03 autrijus in pugs internals
07:03 autrijus not sure I like it
07:04 Juerd And to top things, a scalar value can be both numeric and stringy at the same time.
07:04 autrijus isn't p6 supposed to clarify things?
07:04 Juerd (In Perl 5 -- I assume it'll stay)
07:04 autrijus this is clear as deep ink
07:04 Juerd autrijus: Yes.
07:05 castaway ah, ingy: You will need to bind a key to "/window last" which seems to do what you mean
07:05 Juerd I think that the Perl 5 concept of lists and arrays works better.
07:05 castaway The startup-HOWTO.html of irssi describes vaguely how to do this
07:05 castaway (there may already be a key, but you'd need to RTFS.. the docs are lousy)
07:05 Flash_ has left "Pants"
07:06 Juerd /bind lists all key bindings
07:06 Juerd And lets you set new ones
07:07 castaway now you tell us :)
07:07 autrijus yay, time to rewrite all evaluator code again.
07:08 Juerd castaway: This has been my public opinion all the time :)
07:08 Juerd Lists as some kind of array, or the other way around, just doesn't work well imo
07:08 castaway sorry, Juerd?
07:08 castaway (hm,m I dont see one for last_window or some such)
07:08 Juerd Oh, thought the "now you tell us" was about lists
07:09 * nothingmuch finally goes to work
07:09 castaway no, that was about /bind :)
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07:09 Juerd autrijus: I must tell you that with the current specs, I can't be sure that what I'm saying is actually correct
07:09 castaway (someone should finish the irssi docs, and no, Im not volunteering ,)
07:10 Juerd Are you vo... oh.
07:10 castaway folks, although p6 is supposed to clarify some things, its also supposed to (IIRC) not be terribly hard to port to from p5..
07:10 autrijus Juerd: I think the only way to win is to codify this as operational semantics instead of vague synopsis chapters.
07:10 Juerd The thing is that everyone says irssi's docs need finishing
07:10 castaway well that would make it true, Juerd
07:10 mauke castaway: /bind meta-s /window last
07:10 Juerd While at the same time, millions of people just happen to know how things work in it :)
07:11 * castaway redirects maukes advice to ingy
07:11 Juerd Partly by guessing, partly because of common IRC client sense, partly because the thing itself lets you ask someone else
07:11 castaway (while making note of it herself)
07:11 castaway is meta-l used?
07:11 Juerd If it's not listed in /bind, it's not used.
07:11 castaway ask someone else?
07:12 Juerd And if it's listed, you can unbind it if you want it for something else.
07:12 Juerd castaway: Someone else, as in not yourself
07:12 autrijus Juerd: so, Type and Cxt are two things
07:12 castaway oh, you mean because its a chat client, I see
07:12 Juerd As you yourself, if you need to ask the question, probably don't know the answer.
07:12 autrijus Juerd: the user can freely add things to the Type enumeration by using `subtype` or `class` or whatever
07:12 autrijus Juerd: can user somehow add things to the Cxt enumeration?
07:13 castaway werent you off to the office, or has that already happened?
07:13 autrijus or is Cxt fixed?
07:13 Juerd 08:53  * Juerd is skipping the office thing to get more time for fun
07:13 castaway oops, missed that bit
07:13 castaway lucky bugger .)
07:13 Juerd autrijus: I expect it's rather fixed
07:13 Juerd castaway: Not really, but that's a different story
07:14 Juerd autrijus: Especially since context is a compile time thing
07:14 castaway (yay, meta-l now works :)
07:14 autrijus Juerd: as you well know, user code can run at compile time ;)
07:14 * castaway reluctantly looks at actual work.
07:14 Juerd autrijus: No, it can run during one of the many runtimes only :)
07:15 autrijus Juerd: heh ;)
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07:15 autrijus ok, "inbetween" compile time
07:15 Juerd autrijus: One of which is often called compile time, but it really is a runtime that is inserted during compile time, and before that code runs it has its own compile time anyway :)
07:15 Juerd That'd be the short description :)
07:15 autrijus Juerd: basically I'm exposing the compiler to user space as we speak
07:16 Juerd But context happens much and happens everywhere
07:16 Juerd Making it flexible means giving up a big bunch of speed and possible optimization
07:16 autrijus oh btw, can you write to %::OUTER ?
07:16 autrijus and %::MY for that matter
07:16 autrijus by write I mean delete
07:16 autrijus or tie
07:16 autrijus and I mean %OUTER:: and %MY::.
07:17 Juerd autrijus: I think the elements are usable as normal variables, but the hash itself is readonly
07:17 Juerd autrijus: And %::MY oughta do the same as %MY:: :)
07:17 autrijus ok :)
07:17 autrijus because if you can delete things fro mit
07:17 autrijus in a BEGIN block
07:18 Juerd In fact, I think postfix :: is weird now that we have a :: sigil
07:18 autrijus that can have very interesting consequences.
07:18 Juerd And with a :: sigil, why is the % still needed? The % tricks us into believing it can be used as a real hash...
07:18 autrijus sometimes I think regularity isn't a bad idea after all.
07:19 Juerd I'd second any vote for ::OUTER<_>, but I guess this is taking things too far for many people
07:19 Juerd autrijus: I think that if you delete from it in a BEGIN block, Perl'd have to start forking or threading to try and interpret it correctly :)
07:19 autrijus oh btw. the .isa Type tree is a Graph not a Tree right?
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07:20 autrijus an acyclic one, because we have multiple inheritance
07:20 Juerd I know neither of Tree and Graph
07:20 autrijus but we don't allow cyclic inheritance?
07:20 Jouke has left
07:20 autrijus Juerd: class Foo is Bar is Baz
07:20 autrijus class Bar is Foo is Baz
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07:21 mauke class Loop is Loop
07:21 Juerd In the second declaration's context, Foo may be a lexical class that is different from the global Foo
07:22 Juerd mauke: Same story - Loop may be a previously declared class that the class Loop is Loop declaration is masking (with a warning, unless you use "ok" or whatever ok is spelled now)
07:22 autrijus Juerd: ok... see mauke's
07:22 autrijus whoa, masking
07:22 autrijus that's something missing in ase12 :)
07:22 mauke perl -wle '@ISA = "main"; main->x'
07:22 Juerd It can't mask if it's global class Loop
07:22 Juerd But with my class Loop is Loop, it can
07:22 autrijus ok. what happens when it is a global class?
07:23 Juerd Hm, no, mauke's statement can't mask
07:23 ingy thanks mauke
07:23 autrijus do we throw out fatal error?
07:23 Juerd autrijus: I think that's the most sane way to handle it
07:23 autrijus ok. thanks, acyclic directed graph it is then.
07:23 * autrijus switches alrogithm simply by changing a `data` statement
07:23 Juerd Although trying to resolve unknown methods into infinity would be a more appropriate punishment for the programmer who wrote it.
07:24 autrijus Juerd: and there's the problem of mutuallly recursive modules
07:24 mauke I like interesting non-terminating programs; loops in the method resolver would be cool
07:24 Juerd autrijus: Hm, those should work, though
07:25 Juerd class Foo is Bar { method foo { ... } }
07:25 Juerd class Bar is Foo { method bar { ... } }
07:25 Juerd Foo->bar should call Bar::bar, Bar->foo should call Foo::foo
07:25 Juerd Yikes.
07:25 mauke and what about Foo->huhu?
07:25 Juerd mauke: That can either fail or take forever.
07:26 Juerd mauke: There's no concensus about that among my brain cells
07:26 mauke .oO(the interpreter should detect it and simulate an infinite loop with sleep())
07:26 Juerd But that doesn't quite use enough memory to get the machine into a swapping halt, mauke
07:27 mauke oh, is that the ultimate goal of perl 6?
07:27 Juerd Nor would it increase the machine's load, keeping other processes from doing their jobs fast.
07:27 Juerd mauke: One of many.
07:29 Juerd afk
07:29 Juerd (wrists hurt already - not a good sign)
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07:39 nothingmuch morning
07:40 gaal heya nm
07:41 nothingmuch what's up?
07:41 castaway rehi nm
07:41 jabbot pugs - 2190 - Leftover from renaming. (p5 embedded sti
07:41 Juerd It took me half a minute to realise that nm stands for nothingmuch
07:41 nothingmuch hola castaway
07:41 gaal what does rehi mean?
07:41 * Juerd knows it as never mind
07:41 Juerd gaal: re, hi
07:41 Juerd gaal: re is back
07:41 Juerd or again
07:41 Juerd or return
07:41 gaal ACK :)
07:42 Juerd or back again because of the return, or any other combination you think is nice
07:42 castaway sorry, picked up in Muds and never really lost it again :)
07:42 castaway it just means "hi again"
07:42 Juerd Yep
07:42 gaal i want to work on p6 smokes today. # if you can't backport, pugsport.
07:42 Juerd Or, I'm back and say hi.
07:43 Juerd "re" by itself just means I'm back
07:43 Juerd Example:
07:43 Juerd afk  # toilet
07:43 * gaal get the idea
07:43 gaal ^t^ts
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07:44 Juerd re!
07:45 Juerd Now I go watch 24s04e18
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08:05 autrijus hey Juerd.
08:05 Juerd Me?
08:05 nothingmuch autrijus: want to try the spork fudgery?
08:05 autrijus sub foo (@x)
08:05 autrijus this means
08:05 autrijus sub foo (Array @x)
08:05 autrijus right?
08:05 Alias_ has quit IRC ()
08:06 autrijus not
08:06 autrijus sub foo (List @x)
08:06 Juerd Yes. I'm even willing to think
08:06 Juerd sub foo (Array $x) { my @x := @$x; ... }
08:06 autrijus so, am I correct in thinking that
08:06 autrijus sub foo (*@x)     imposes Plural context
08:06 autrijus sub foo (@x)     imposes Singular context
08:06 autrijus when I call
08:06 Juerd Yes
08:06 autrijus foo(blah())
08:06 autrijus good.
08:07 autrijus that means isSlurpy is really a disguise of CxtList
08:07 autrijus and I can unify them.
08:09 * autrijus continues to rip everything apart
08:09 Juerd I'm so sorry, autrijus :)
08:09 autrijus np :)
08:09 autrijus data Cxt = CxtVoid | CxtScalar Type | CxtList Type deriving (Eq, Show, Ord)
08:09 autrijus this is really the gist of all
08:09 autrijus I'm just fixing all the type errors :)
08:09 gaal do we have open|  in pugs? (to a pipe)
08:10 autrijus gaal: no. want to hack?
08:10 autrijus gaal: you can use System.Command iirc.
08:10 * Juerd wants open :pipe :r
08:10 Juerd And
08:10 gaal yes. i need it to take over the world^W^W^W^Wport test::harness.
08:10 Juerd open :pipe :w
08:10 Juerd And even open :pipe :rw
08:10 autrijus mmm hierarchical types. how are they handled?
08:10 Juerd autrijus: does suffices
08:11 autrijus ok. so they are in that "Other" chain
08:11 Juerd Do you by chance understand esperanto? :)
08:11 autrijus not the .isa chain, but the .does chain
08:11 autrijus no :)
08:11 Juerd The does chain is more important than the isa chain
08:11 Juerd does.isa(isa) :)
08:12 Juerd It's like meat. You don't care if the thing you're eating is actually meat, as long as it tastes and looks like meat :)
08:13 nothingmuch unless you're some kind of hippy
08:14 gaal nm: I want to port Test::Harness to p6 (and eventually our TAP stuff). Start thinking of things that can get changed :)
08:14 nothingmuch IMHO Test::Harness should be modeled around the SAX mindset
08:15 nothingmuch at the basic level it knows how to take lines, and generate events for them
08:15 nothingmuch and it has smarter methods for:
08:15 nothingmuch filehandles
08:15 nothingmuch commands to open pipe from
08:15 nothingmuch append string, etc
08:15 nothingmuch the events represent state, sort of:
08:16 nothingmuch tap started ... got_plan ... case($num, $ok, $desc)... ..tap end
08:16 gaal it should certainly use its own Straps for make test-like output
08:16 nothingmuch on top of this raw layer I think you should have a by default verifying layer
08:17 nothingmuch that is Test::Harness::SAX should verify by default
08:17 nothingmuch and Test::Harness::SAX::Raw should just generate events for what it sees
08:17 nothingmuch the 'default' interface maintains a simple state which you can use to construct your objects
08:17 nothingmuch or you can get events for errors and illogical output
08:18 nothingmuch the default harness will implement the reporting that Test::Harness does today
08:18 nothingmuch but it shouldn't be called Test::Harness, it should be called Test::Harness::TTY or something like that
08:18 nothingmuch and Test::Harness should be more like CPAN
08:18 nothingmuch CPANPLUS
08:18 nothingmuch it lets you choose what frontend you prefer
08:18 nothingmuch and does the right thing when it needs to find a frontend that works
08:19 nothingmuch that's the best I can come up with
08:20 gaal autrijus: do you remember where 'span' in op1 "open" comes from?
08:21 autrijus gaal: it's Data.List
08:21 gaal thanks. shall i hack p5-like syntax now and do the adverb stuff later? i don't know if it's hard or not.
08:21 autrijus just hack p5like now I think
08:23 gaal k
08:25 gaal oh dear this is a hack :)
08:25 nothingmuch wow! the flight plus everything is only about $900
08:25 gaal but then again p5's open is a hell of a hack :)
08:26 castaway lucky, nm :(
08:26 nothingmuch it's through budapest though
08:27 nothingmuch but who cares, i have more time than money
08:27 nothingmuch how is your search coming along?
08:27 gaal budapest is supposed to be beautiful, if ytou have a long connection you might enjoy it
08:27 nothingmuch perhaps
08:27 nothingmuch my bass teacher will be proud
08:29 nothingmuch now to arrange for accomodations
08:29 nothingmuch (also free! wooo!)
08:29 Juerd gaal: Isn't sub open(Str $fn, Bool +$pipe, Bool +$r, Bool +$w, Bool +$rw) { $r = $w = $rw if defined $rw; ... } a good solution for now?
08:30 nothingmuch err, s/also/it's/; # makes more sense?
08:30 nothingmuch Juerd++
08:30 Juerd $r = 1 if not defined $r and not defined $w
08:30 nothingmuch maybe we want to define Mode is Pair { }
08:31 Juerd Pair $mode?
08:31 nothingmuch not really
08:31 Juerd As in :mode<r>?
08:31 nothingmuch :r
08:31 Juerd That's a good idea.
08:31 nothingmuch no, it's a pair whose keys have to be qw/r rw w)
08:31 Juerd Why that?
08:31 Juerd We have named arguments for this purpose...
08:32 nothingmuch this is named arguments
08:32 Juerd :rw equals rw => 1
08:32 nothingmuch i know
08:32 nothingmuch one second, i'll exemplify:
08:32 Juerd And :r and :w should be combineable
08:32 Juerd :rw is just a shortcut
08:32 Juerd As :gi is for :global :insensitive
08:33 nothingmuch open(Str $fn, Mode +$mode = :r){ my ($read, $write) = -> (Bool +$pipe, Bool +$r, Bool +$w, Bool +){ ... } }
08:33 gaal autrijus: i couldn't find System.Command; but System.Process.runInteractiveProcess looks promising, no?
08:33 nothingmuch this just simplifies the top level prototype
08:33 nothingmuch Mode is more of a subtype of Pair
08:33 nothingmuch where the key is constrained
08:33 nothingmuch and the value is a bool
08:34 nothingmuch maybe i'm going too far
08:34 Juerd nothingmuch: Simplifies, but adds a dependency and disables open $fn :r syntax
08:34 Juerd Because + is for named arguments
08:34 Juerd And we don't want positional optional arguments, do we?
08:35 Juerd 'Cause we want a *@args instead, so we can open "cat", "/etc/passwd" :pipe
08:35 nothingmuch good point
08:35 * nothingmuch likes perl6 mental masturbation
08:35 Juerd What's mental masturbation?
08:35 Juerd Do I even want to know?
08:35 nothingmuch it's a thought process that is fun, but has no practical yield
08:36 Juerd Physical masturbation has practical yield.
08:36 nothingmuch appearantly c2 has an entry for that too: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MentalMasturbation
08:36 autrijus gaal: yeah, that's that, I misremembered
08:36 Juerd Bleh, have to fix things in a elementary school's computer network now
08:37 nothingmuch Juerd: don't teach the little kids about the practical yields of masturbation
08:37 nothingmuch you won't get hired again
08:37 * gaal notes that the current implementation of open is broken anyway because you can't open a file named ">".
08:37 Juerd That sucks. All those whining kids asking you if you can install "emmessen".
08:37 gaal also, "-" is missing
08:37 nothingmuch what's emmessen?
08:38 mauke msn?
08:38 * gaal would certainly like open("-") to keep working
08:38 Juerd MSN Messenger, apparently.
08:38 Juerd gaal: Why not just use $*IN?
08:38 Juerd afk :(
08:38 gaal Juerd: my $filename = shift || "-"; open $filename...
08:39 Juerd gaal: my $filename = shift || $*IN
08:39 Juerd And make open a noop for already open fhs?
08:39 gaal but then the guy getting the fn has to be the guy opening the fh
08:39 Juerd That makes all library code accepting a filename also accept open handles
08:39 Juerd Which is a big win.
08:40 Juerd afk
08:40 gaal but then you can't have the opening code validating a filename :) or at least if you want it too, it has to check the ref first.
08:43 autrijus Juerd: I found CxtScalar still too confusing :-/
08:43 * autrijus ponders CxtSingular CxtPlural
08:43 autrijus CxtUnit CxtSlurpy
08:44 gaal (btw, did perl5 embeddeg ever work? i tried it today the first time and it didn't build for me)
08:44 autrijus gaal: it workedforme but it may have bitrotten
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08:44 autrijus CxtVoid CxtItem CxtSlurpy
08:44 gaal "embeddeg". sheesh! :)
08:45 autrijus I think I'll use that set for now.
08:48 nothingmuch is mugwump in a ~us time zone?
08:51 autrijus I think he's based in nz
08:52 nothingmuch so he should be up sometime soon?
08:52 castaway gaal, what happens with open($fh, ">", ">") then ?
08:53 castaway its late night for him, he should be going to bed
08:53 nothingmuch oh right, got it the wrong way around
08:53 gaal castaway, open is op1 right now
08:53 gaal simply a bug
08:53 castaway oh, the pugs version, i thought you meant perl5
08:54 gaal hey, are the ":x" things simply syntactic sugar for "x = 1"?
08:54 * castaway has no idea what op1 is :)
08:54 gaal castaway, a builtin taking one arg
08:55 castaway ah
08:55 gaal also, how do i handle named params in Prim?
08:55 gaal ...can i?
08:56 gaal because i also want to do open "file|", i'm torn about whether to hack in more parsing or do it properly
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09:11 gaal bah! t/builtins/io/io_redirect_to_scalar.t has something completely diffferent. i think i'll work arounf the language issue for now and just hack in an explicit pipe-open prim for now :(
09:20 * nothingmuch can't marry Kwiki::VimMode with Spork::S5 for some reason
09:27 gaal hmm. i know how to do interactive open in haskell (ghci++), but i can't figure out how to represent the tuple (stdin, stdout, stderr, pid) in Perl; specifically, how to hide them all behind a single handle and make it DWIM.
09:28 gaal even supposing i use the tied interface to hide in and out, that leaves two things :)
09:29 gaal so i'm wondering whether open() can handle it all.
09:29 autrijus you can make a new IHandle instance that hides both.
09:29 autrijus and later add methods
09:29 nothingmuch gaal: perhaps an object abstracting not so much a handle but a process is in order?
09:30 gaal i can impose a limitation on the user to call me either as open fn| or open |fh, but that seems silly if the underlying system suppotys something like open3
09:30 nothingmuch like an IPC::Run handle
09:30 nothingmuch open3 is dangerous, thoug
09:31 nothingmuch most users aren't experienced enough to use it reliablyy
09:31 gaal nothingmuch, i don't know what haskell does, but it does give you that tuple.
09:31 autrijus yay, I've done rewriting everything.
09:32 autrijus now the obvious question is, do I commit it ;)
09:32 nothingmuch pjcj: ping
09:32 gaal autrijus, does it break tests? :)
09:32 nothingmuch what is everything?
09:32 autrijus gaal: sure, it breaks 100% of it
09:32 nothingmuch and the answer is: yes
09:33 nothingmuch it can always be undone if it's a bad choice
09:33 autrijus nothingmuch: Cxt and Type was both alias to String
09:33 autrijus nothingmuch: now they are distinct and very different data structures.
09:33 autrijus this is per last night's revelation from larry and juerd
09:33 * nothingmuch is sort of up to date
09:34 nothingmuch and all the code that looks too deep inside exprs to see the Cxt is screwed?
09:38 autrijus nah. I think hangman and mandel has to run first ;)
09:38 autrijus wow, another 1200 lines of patch.
09:38 autrijus # http://autrijus.org/tmp/cxtType.patch
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09:45 autrijus nothingmuch: everything is screwed.
09:45 autrijus dinner &
09:45 nothingmuch heh
09:45 nothingmuch bon apetite
09:46 autrijus pugs> ~want()
09:46 autrijus 'Scalar (Str)'
09:46 autrijus pugs> *want()
09:46 autrijus ('List (Any)')
09:46 autrijus etc.
09:46 autrijus Cxt is now two-part: Void/Slurpy/Item (stringifies as Void/List/Scalar) and a Type
09:46 autrijus really &
09:47 pjcj nothingmuch: pong
09:47 nothingmuch pjcj: i am using Devel::Cover to try to gcov and do windows coverage too
09:47 nothingmuch i have a DB where i keep coverage per test line per file
09:47 nothingmuch now, the tools are veeerrrry buggy
09:48 nothingmuch and I'd like to try to see why they're so screwed up
09:48 nothingmuch so i would like a display per file:
09:48 nothingmuch <win> <linux> <line>
09:48 nothingmuch basically, coverage is split up
09:48 nothingmuch and unless both are covered, the line is concisered uncovered
09:48 nothingmuch or something like that
09:49 nothingmuch will it be easy to use your HTML code to do this? or should i not bother at all?
09:49 pjcj have you seen gcov2perl?
09:50 nothingmuch yeah i have
09:50 nothingmuch my gcov is an older version
09:50 nothingmuch and i am processing the gcovs anyway
09:50 nothingmuch so i based on it
09:50 nothingmuch but made it more of an sqlite2perl
09:50 nothingmuch since usually we're interested in all the tests, we want sum(line_coverage)
09:50 nothingmuch but sometimes we want just a few tests
09:50 nothingmuch so we say where test.name = "foo";
09:51 pjcj It sounds like something the backends should be able to cope with.
09:51 nothingmuch they do cope with it
09:51 nothingmuch but it's slow
09:51 nothingmuch i used to generate a Devel::Cover run per gcov
09:51 nothingmuch but since i have 700*1500 gvocs, one per file, per run
09:52 nothingmuch it started being slow
09:52 nothingmuch and the data is in the DB anyway, since we're using it to generate pretty excels
09:52 nothingmuch so basically it makes the 700 behave more like 1
09:52 nothingmuch and i don't have to ruin the way gcov2perl parses gcovs
09:52 nothingmuch but anyway, back to the comparison:
09:52 nothingmuch is it easy to make two distinct 'stmt' coverages per file?
09:53 pjcj yes, the cover db merging is slow since it has to read the storable db, convert to perl data structures, merge and write
09:53 pjcj that's not possible right now, but I have annotations mostly done, which sounds like the solution here
09:53 nothingmuch okay
09:53 nothingmuch so i'll hack something with HTML::TreeBuilder for now
09:53 pjcj the only problem is that the html backend doesn't display them
09:53 nothingmuch hehe
09:54 * nothingmuch has no time to help with that, sorry
09:54 pjcj the text backend does, but it's not so pretty ;-)
09:55 nothingmuch well, it shouldn't be too hard to make a pretty HTML
09:55 nothingmuch i can even color the lines themselves
09:55 nothingmuch since i really want a diff:
09:55 nothingmuch code that is executable on both platforms should hardly ever differ in it's covering
09:55 nothingmuch and code that differs in executability should also be noted
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09:55 nothingmuch even though there's lots of ifdefs there
09:56 nothingmuch anyway, thanks so much for the really flexible tool you wrote, it's been very useful so far =)
09:56 machack666 hola, texters
09:56 pjcj the groundwork for doing all this sort of thing are in place - runs are stored separately so you can see what each run covered, but I don't have the backend tools yet to use that info.
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10:26 NathanJY WTF
10:26 NathanJY someone wrote perl 6 in haskell?!
10:27 integral more like "WTF?  someone wrote perl5 in C?!"
10:29 NathanJY no, not reall
10:29 NathanJY only if you're a crack smoking academic pinhead
10:29 NathanJY no one uses haskell
10:29 rgs sure one does
10:29 NathanJY 0.001% of prgorammers counts as no one
10:30 b6s just /ignore
10:30 NathanJY I'm surprised people still think lisp and its variants have any real use
10:31 NathanJY there's a reason no one uses them outside of academia...
10:31 nothingmuch NathanJY: blah blah blah
10:31 nothingmuch the facts are: pugs works
10:32 nothingmuch and it got here fast
10:32 shapr NathanJY: yeah, write some code or shaddup
10:32 nothingmuch if you don't like it, go write perl 6 in c
10:32 nothingmuch no one is going to listen to you if you don't back it up with code
10:32 shapr talk is cheap, code is content.
10:32 cognominal NathanJY:  yea and because it is academia, there is a lot of good stuff to steal there and make it useful by many programmers
10:33 shapr In my home state of Alabama they say "put yo money where yo mouth is"
10:33 NathanJY yeah and they just rewrite it in another language
10:33 shapr Then do it.
10:33 NathanJY "it works" is not a valid defense
10:33 integral using monads in Perl is a right pain :-)
10:33 NathanJY that's not my job
10:33 NathanJY "These days, though, it's becoming more and more common to not have C but instead to have some kind of virtual machine (JVM, .NET, etc.).  So we'd like to have our own virtual machine that will run wherever there's C, but also to make it easy to port the bytecode to another virtual machine for places without C."
10:33 nothingmuch NathanJY: it shouldn't work is not a valid attack
10:33 NathanJY I never said it shouldn't work
10:33 kungfuftr NathanJY: go work on parrot then, so perl6 can run on perl6
10:34 NathanJY you could write perl6 in brainfuck, doesn't mean it's a good idea
10:34 shapr It's not your job to complain about code other people wrote either, but you're here.
10:34 NathanJY WTF is larry wall smkoing?!
10:34 NathanJY since when do systems have a VM, but not C?
10:34 nothingmuch it's eating
10:34 cognominal You don't understand what bootstrapping a compiler means
10:34 nothingmuch and the what is blue sugar cubes
10:34 nothingmuch cell phones?
10:34 NathanJY of course I do
10:34 * shapr smokes a cell phone
10:35 b6s please just /ignore him.
10:35 NathanJY It's like larry wall is deliberately avoiding the norm for the sake of avoiding the norm
10:35 rgs mmm, nokias.
10:35 nothingmuch NathanJY: let me put it this you. What are you planning on gaining from coming here and bashing us for using haskell?
10:35 cognominal NathanJY: you should use flintstones, that's proven technology used for thousand of centuries
10:36 NathanJY I didn't even know perl6 was being rewritten in hasekll until now
10:36 NathanJY I'm shocked
10:36 nothingmuch if it's an implementation of perl6 in c, you won't get it
10:36 nothingmuch if it's respect, you won't get it either
10:36 nothingmuch if you would like to help, you can help
10:36 nothingmuch but please don't harass for the sake of harassing
10:36 shapr yeah, write code!
10:36 NathanJY even more shocked about this BS saying that they want to target systems with VMs that don't have C
10:36 nothingmuch you can write tests in perl 6
10:36 pjcj I think NathanJY may well be our first real troll.  I wonder if there is a prize for this.
10:36 nothingmuch cell phones usually don't have compilers
10:36 NathanJY Geez, can't I offer a dissenting opinion without being called a troll?
10:36 nothingmuch but many of them have jvm
10:37 nothingmuch you're not offerring an opinion
10:37 NathanJY Stop being such zealots and open your minds to the idea that hey--maybe using haskell is a bad idea
10:37 nothingmuch your imposing a complaint
10:37 integral NathanJY: what's the use of a dissenting opinion though?    We've got code, and it works.
10:37 shapr NathanJY: open your mind and see that it might be a great idea.
10:37 nothingmuch NathanJY: what does it matter?
10:37 cognominal NathanJY: do you only understand the purposes of VMs?
10:37 NathanJY cell phones? is that the best you can come up with?  What about the numerous other platforms where C is available, but VMs arent'?
10:37 shapr NathanJY: You're just trying to distract us from writing code?
10:38 nothingmuch NathanJY: if C is available then parrot is too
10:38 * shapr checks the latest smoke test.
10:38 shapr Oh, I have a coupla free hours, what the next thing a lambafolk can do?
10:38 nothingmuch NathanJY: what do you want? please don't complain, but ask and maybe ye shall receive
10:38 NathanJY integral:  That's totally illogical.  I could write a working perl6 implementation in brainfuck, but does that mean it would be good?
10:38 nothingmuch if you want it to run on parrot, it already does
10:38 NathanJY integral: You're extremely close minded
10:38 rgs NathanJY: please go read a book about bootstrapping and come back when you'll have understood.
10:38 nothingmuch if you want to compile to machine code
10:38 integral NathanJY: does it need to be good though?
10:38 nothingmuch parrot does that
10:39 chady is now known as chady_
10:39 nothingmuch if you want it to compile to haskell, and from there to C,
10:39 nothingmuch then you have perl 6 with a C compiler backend
10:39 integral NathanJY: I'd much rather be able to be using perl6 today, then wait 5 years for whatever what happening before pugs to finally get there
10:39 nothingmuch that's already there too
10:39 NathanJY I'm well aware of what bootstrapping is
10:39 rgs no, you don't.
10:39 * rgs ping pongs
10:39 NathanJY integral: You're missing the point completely, there's no reason it couldn't have been written in C
10:39 shapr NathanJY: so, want to write some perl6 unit tests? Those are good for any perl6 implementation.
10:39 nothingmuch NathanJY: yes there is
10:39 NathanJY rgs: If you repeat it enough, it must be true!
10:40 NathanJY nothingmuch: which is...?
10:40 castaway NathanJY: You seem to assume the HAskell is the one and only ever implementation of perl6.
10:40 nothingmuch perl 5 is not the internal structure that people wanted for perl 65
10:40 shapr NathanJY: C'mon, you can contribute positively instead!
10:40 castaway s/haskell/pugs/ :)
10:40 nothingmuch if C would be a good solution, why aren't we just upgrading p5?
10:41 NathanJY nothingmuch: Argument from popularity is a logical fallacy
10:41 nothingmuch you can do that too, you know
10:41 castaway The whole thing is just an exercise in learning haskell :9
10:41 cognominal NathanJY: ask rgs who maintains perl5
10:41 shapr And for me, an exercise in learning Perl.
10:41 * pjcj wanders off to write Perl6 in csh
10:41 cognominal he is qualified to know why we need an altogethere different vm
10:41 * castaway writes one in elisp :)
10:41 nothingmuch NathanJY: you just disproved yourself, methinks
10:41 NathanJY castaway: I don't see why they would bother with a haskell implementation AT ALL
10:41 castaway NathanJY: For the hell of it! For fun!
10:41 NathanJY nothingmuch: Uh no, do you even understand formal logical fallacies?
10:42 shapr So, what part of pugs are people working on today?
10:42 castaway If you dont like it, nobody is asking you to
10:42 integral NathanJY: logic doesn't make a perl6 compiler actually happen :-)
10:42 nothingmuch NathanJY: whatever
10:42 * nothingmuch goes home for a while
10:42 NathanJY nothingmuch: "If X was a good solution, why wasn't it done?" isn't valid reasoning.  It would only be valid if the developers were somehow infallible and never made bad decisions
10:42 shapr NathanJY: So, go write your own and stop distracting us.
10:42 castaway shapr++
10:42 NathanJY wow
10:43 kungfuftr "Pugs, it's like a slow Perl 6... but... it's currently the only Perl 6 implementation"
10:43 NathanJY your criticism is HORRIBLE
10:43 shapr You're just jealous because we got something done and you didn't
10:43 shapr :-P
10:43 NathanJY I hope you guys aren't the primary developers
10:43 nothingmuch NathanJY: maybe chip can give you some advice based on his topaz experiment
10:43 castaway well you barge in here, shouting about haskell, and expect people to agree with you?
10:43 kungfuftr NathanJY: fuck off... seriously
10:43 NathanJY seriously, I'm not just saying this, you guys have a really horrible grasp on logic
10:43 nothingmuch NathanJY: exactly
10:43 nothingmuch that's why we're writing it in haskell
10:43 integral NathanJY: What does logic have to do with anything?   Would you like logic, or perl6?
10:43 nothingmuch and that's why pugs is a complete peice of shit
10:43 * shapr snickers
10:44 nothingmuch even the SVN repo is not working
10:44 nothingmuch and whoops, the channel is not working either
10:44 NathanJY Even when I encountered extremist language zealots before, they iddn't use reasoning this bad
10:44 shapr Oh, the humanity!
10:44 nothingmuch why bother getting the code, or even talking here?
10:44 NathanJY integral: are the two mutually exclusive?
10:44 kungfuftr NathanJY: ask Larry if he likes pugs
10:44 * castaway doesnt see anyone arguing that haskell is a great way to do it (or did I miss that?)
10:44 integral NathanJY: Who knows?   Does it matter?
10:44 NathanJY nothingmuch: Following your own [il]logic, why aren't YOU writing code?
10:44 nothingmuch ciao
10:44 NathanJY Have you guys ever heard of constructive criticism?
10:45 shapr I really do think NathanJY is just here to distract us while his compatriots implement Perl6 in COBOL.
10:45 kungfuftr NathanJY: yeah, but there's logic to it
10:45 NathanJY Are you seriously suggesting we should never question THE GREAT ONE KNOWN AS LARRY WALL?
10:45 castaway yeah, care to show us some, havent seen any yet ,)
10:45 clkao *yawn*
10:45 shapr good morning clkao!
10:45 NathanJY kungfuftr: I see none of it here, people are just spewing out logical fallacy after logical fallacy
10:45 kungfuftr NathanJY: PUGS IS NOT PERL 6!
10:45 clkao take whatever tool you can handle and do what you can, this is called practical.
10:45 integral NathanJY: Pugs just happens to be implementing perl6.   The perl foundation is still sponsoring parrot et al to get there another route
10:45 clkao and code speaks fucking louder than words.
10:45 shapr NathanJY: Talk is cheap, write code or be accused of being a hot air bag.
10:45 cognominal my $i = rand() * @lang; say   "open your minds to the idea that hey--maybe using @lang[$i] is a bad idea";
10:46 NathanJY "Pugs is an implementation of Perl 6, written in Haskell."
10:46 Forth has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
10:46 Forth_ has joined #perl6
10:46 castaway right: "an" not "the"
10:46 kungfuftr NathanJY: yeah... pugs is an implementation of perl 6... it is NOT Perl 6
10:46 integral NathanJY: someone woke up one day and decided to write a perl6 implementation.   Even though there is an "official" project going on.   Is there not allowed to be two projects?
10:46 shapr Btw, did you guys figure out a way around the make optimized bug?
10:47 NathanJY kungfuftr: I never said it was perl6, learn to read
10:47 castaway shapr: I think Corion had it working, but I dont recall the details
10:47 kungfuftr NathanJY: the design of Perl 6 isn't finalised... the practical purposes of Pugs allows to try a design and see where there are problems or things that need more clarification
10:47 shapr Ah spiffy, I'll ask corion when they next speak.
10:47 gaal shapr: if you have time, can you help me with instantiating IHandle?
10:47 castaway shapr: In about *calc* 4 hours?
10:47 NathanJY That still doesn't explain the choice in language
10:48 shapr gaal: Where in the sources can I look for background info?
10:48 castaway I just told you, it was a learning exercise
10:48 integral NathanJY: At the time autrijus was reading a book which used Haskell :-)
10:48 cognominal NathanJY: we will be happy to run your implementation if it is better than pugs :)
10:48 * shapr greps
10:48 NathanJY and parrot is just reinventing the wheel, except a more blocky wheel
10:48 shapr castaway: Cool, four hours is reasonable.
10:48 gaal shapr: you can backlog for the details, but in short: i want to hide the tuple return of runInteractiveProcess in soemthing encapulated
10:49 gaal AST.hs
10:49 NathanJY castaway: That's still a waste
10:49 kungfuftr NathanJY: take it to the p6 lists
10:49 cognominal NathanJY:  we certainly want to learn from it and get enligthned
10:49 castaway NathanJY: A waste of what? our free time? surely thats ours to do with what we will?
10:49 kungfuftr there's nothing WE can do about it... so what's the use in moaning at us... it's the perl 6 development teams will
10:49 b6s If someone really need to know the reason of using Haskell, he would be able to figure out easily by searching and reading journals of pugs which written by autrijus.
10:49 NathanJY I don't think you guys seem to realize, that when you're dealing with a widely used tool, experimenting just for the sake of learning isn't ag ood idea
10:50 kungfuftr lol
10:50 castaway sure it is
10:50 * shapr snickers
10:50 NathanJY no, you're just trying a different language for trying a different language
10:50 castaway so?
10:50 b6s and If someone actually just wanna show how smart he is, well...
10:50 NathanJY for the sake of
10:50 integral NathanJY: how are we meant to learn how to write compilers in Haskell without doing it?
10:50 * kungfuftr uses perl to play with javascript all the time
10:51 NathanJY you do it by not even touching haskell at all
10:51 shapr NathanJY: You keep implying you know better than we do, I haven't seen your implementation of perl6 that proves that you have any clue at all.
10:51 * castaway laughs
10:51 NathanJY So what if I haven't written an implementation? Nice Ad Hominem.
10:51 kungfuftr NathanJY: hot air
10:51 NathanJY Do you know what Ad Hominem means?
10:51 shapr Yes, but you're wasting my time.
10:52 NathanJY Then why did you use it, knowing it's a logical fallacy?
10:52 * kungfuftr & # work calls
10:52 shapr I'd rather implement another failing test instead of talk to you.
10:52 NathanJY How am I wasting your time?
10:52 castaway later kungfuftr
10:52 NathanJY Then why aren' you doing it?
10:52 NathanJY I'm not twisting your arm
10:52 shapr I am :-)
10:52 b6s i suggest just /ignore or everybody will have pages of flooding in irc log.
10:52 NathanJY No, you're talking to me
10:52 b6s please...
10:52 NathanJY You guys are so ridiculously close minded
10:52 * castaway multitasks
10:52 kungfuftr ignored
10:52 * shapr semitasks
10:52 castaway nah b6s, will be interesting reading for later .)
10:52 gaal shapr: the IFoo thingie is a way to place hooks on read and writes to an object
10:52 shapr gaal: ah, interesting.
10:53 gaal from the perl point of view, i have a simple eg. scalar, and when i try to read its value, code gets run to give me that value
10:53 shapr Neat, sort of like aspects.
10:53 * NathanJY wonders how many of you have done any real world programming
10:53 gaal and when i write to it, different code (can) get run.
10:54 * shapr wonders if electrons have consciousness
10:54 NathanJY Seriously
10:54 NathanJY Why is there a parrot project?
10:54 integral NathanJY: ad hominem!
10:54 NathanJY Wrong
10:54 gaal we were mulling over providing a nice inteface to pipe-opens previously
10:54 NathanJY integral: If you think that, then you don't know what ad hominem means.
10:54 gaal autrijus suggested doing the tie thing
10:55 NathanJY Why not just use an existing VM architecture that has a lot more research go into it?
10:55 shapr NathanJY: do you also go under the irc nicknames of Smerdyakov, rahul, etc?
10:55 NathanJY The last thing we need is yet another VM, and an inferior one at that
10:55 kungfuftr NathanJY: go use java then
10:55 shapr Hello, would someone kindly kick NathanJY off the channel?
10:55 castaway shapr!
10:55 shapr castaway: yes?
10:56 NathanJY No one is going to kick me because i'm not violating any rules
10:56 NathanJY You guys are being needlessly hostile and close-minded
10:56 NathanJY You really can't handle criticism at all
10:56 NathanJY And I seriously doubt that ANY of you have the slightest understanding of compiler theory
10:56 kungfuftr NathanJY: come up with _good_ reasons... all you've said so far is complete hot air
10:56 shapr Show me unit tests and I'll look at 'em.
10:56 castaway don't you think he's funny?
10:56 kungfuftr castaway: totally
10:56 integral NathanJY: What was the last compiler you wrote?
10:56 NathanJY I'm asking for good reasons for pugs and parrot
10:56 NathanJY no one has offered a single one
10:57 shapr castaway: Yeah, but he's making inflammatory comments and it's distracting.
10:57 integral NathanJY: What is your understanding of compiler theory?
10:57 castaway "because its there" is a good reason for lots of things (especially learning ones)
10:57 NathanJY no it's not
10:57 castaway well then who's close minded?
10:57 NathanJY brainfuck is there, should you use that?
10:57 shapr I guess I'm used to criticisms with actual content.
10:57 kungfuftr NathanJY: parrot, not our problem.... pugs, to flesh out the perl 6 design
10:57 castaway If I felt like learning it, yes
10:57 NathanJY you guys are, you're unwilling to think about anything else
10:58 gaal so shapr, you can look at 1073 for example: there's the Cwd scalar, which when you read, gives you the current work dir, and when you write to, does a setCurrentDirectory. okay?
10:58 * shapr would rather not do the Dance of Anger today.
10:58 NathanJY why would you waste so much time learning haskell?
10:58 castaway you havent actually asked any questions that would reveal that
10:58 NathanJY you don't need to write a compiler to learn it anway
10:58 NathanJY Yes I have
10:58 NathanJY you immediatly rejected the idea of a C implementation
10:59 NathanJY And why parrot?
10:59 * shapr looks for Cwd
10:59 * castaway doesnt actually programm any haskell at all.
10:59 gaal what i need is some way to hang several IO handles on a single IScalar (i think)
10:59 NathanJY hahaha
10:59 NathanJY I'm not suprrised
10:59 NathanJY You're defending a language you know nothing about
10:59 NathanJY How many of you have actually done any functional programming?
10:59 integral NathanJY: and I've learnt all I know about writing compilers in Haskell without writing one :-)
10:59 castaway I think you're attacking one you know nothing about too, so even ground ,)
10:59 kungfuftr NathanJY: SHUT THE FUCK UP. YOU ARE PROVIDING NO CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE TO MOAN. GO TO THE PERL 6 MAILING LISTS
10:59 kungfuftr =0)
11:00 shapr Yeah, go away. You're just trying to sabotage actual useful contributions :-P
11:00 NathanJY kungfuftr: No one is providing reasonable answers to my questions.  Calm down.
11:00 shapr NathanJY: post it on a website and let us read it.
11:00 kungfuftr NathanJY: GO TO THE PERL 6 MAILING LISTS.
11:00 NathanJY kungfuftr: Why not discuss it here?
11:00 kungfuftr NathanJY: this isn't the place to discuss it. discuss it on the mailing lists.
11:00 NathanJY It looks to me all you guys do is test cases, you're basically very mediocre programmers defending a project you don't udnerstand
11:01 NathanJY What's wrong with discussing it here?
11:01 kungfuftr go to the perl 6 mailing lists
11:01 NathanJY WHY?
11:01 NathanJY That's what I thought, you guys don't actually know enough about the projects to defend them
11:01 kungfuftr we have no input into the choice to use parrot or other design aspects of perl6
11:02 NathanJY that's why your'e deferring me to the list--so I can question people who know what they're talking about
11:02 kungfuftr pugs is simply here to flesh out the design
11:02 NathanJY so?
11:02 cognominal NathanJY: we are obviouly too dumb, please use better your time to enlight smarter people :)
11:02 NathanJY I'm asking WHY they made the choice
11:02 NathanJY I don't need to be on a mailing list to do that
11:02 kungfuftr NathanJY: ask the list! we have no idea
11:02 * castaway doesnt have a clue.
11:02 integral NathanJY: If we're very poor programmers, do you want us to just stop doing any work on anything perl6 related?
11:02 NathanJY Finally
11:03 NathanJY You guys finally admit you have no clue why
11:03 castaway should we care? go ask the ones who do
11:03 NathanJY Congratulations on defending something oyu know nothing about *applause*
11:03 NathanJY Because you're obviously interested in perl development
11:03 kungfuftr NathanJY: whoopee fucking do... goodbye
11:04 castaway nice asumption
11:04 shapr Google shows that NathanJY is a troll in many forums.
11:04 kungfuftr shapr: most undoubtedly
11:05 NathanJY shapr: nathanjy gets one hit in google
11:05 shapr NathanJY: Does the fighting excite you? Is it the conflict? I've never understood what's appealing about trolling.
11:05 castaway shapr:  Its the 'lets hit them til they cry' mentality..
11:05 clkao and WHY do you choose perl6 to flame?
11:06 kungfuftr shapr: it's cos he's got a small penis. he needs to feel bigger.
11:07 NathanJY i never understood what's appealing about being close minded
11:07 shapr I don't think I'll ever understand trolling.
11:07 gugod I don't think I'll ever understand perl6
11:08 * shapr grins
11:08 gugod or some equation like E=mc^2
11:08 pjcj At least that google count will go up soon ;-)
11:08 castaway Or haskell!
11:08 clkao pjcj: you need to /whois before google :)
11:09 gugod in fact, I don't even quite understand perl5 *shock*
11:09 mj has joined #perl6
11:09 clkao in fact, I am glad that i don't understand perl4. i was shocked by this $foo'bar thing yesterday
11:09 shapr Wow!
11:10 castaway heh
11:10 b6s 22 pages. gosh
11:10 gaal shapr/anyone, i want to undertstand if "iType" in the tie interface magically connects my var to a class i can call methods on, and where i write the code to that p6 class
11:12 gaal and by the way, does gnu grep have anything by way of an .exclude file i can use to make -r lookups not return results from .svn-base ?
11:12 gugod --exclude='.svn' maybe
11:13 shapr You could use find, I think it might have an 'ignore dir' param.
11:13 gugod or use svk
11:13 gaal shapr, yes, but then it won't work with vim like i want it to :)
11:13 shapr Oh, ok.
11:14 gaal gugod: --exclude is what i want! thanks.
11:14 gugod cool
11:14 gaal (well, almost. i want to make it the default)
11:14 gugod use alias :p
11:14 gaal ah, there's GREP_OPTIONS env.
11:14 gugod alias grep="grep --exclude=.svn" something
11:15 gaal the alias prolly won't work because vim doesn't use the shell -- i think -- to call grep.
11:15 gaal oh, also: grepprg in vim.
11:16 gaal e.g. :set grepprg=grep -r --exclude=.svn
11:16 gaal vim++
11:17 roshambo has joined #perl6
11:19 roshambo so who else thinks haskell is the pits?
11:19 castaway cog ?
11:19 cogurov has joined #perl6
11:19 castaway Hmm, no
11:20 scw has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
11:20 roshambo you must have a busted logic center ;P
11:23 * roshambo quits teasing', bye
11:23 roshambo has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.8a1/20040520]")
11:26 * shapr boings randomly
11:26 shapr w00
11:27 * castaway sighs
11:27 * shapr throws stuffed animals at castaway
11:27 castaway oooh, thanks :)
11:27 castaway (as if I didnt have enough of them :)
11:27 * shapr grins
11:27 * castaway is wasting the whole damn morning on an error that makes no iota of sense whatsoever
11:28 shapr What's the error?
11:30 castaway I'm using an Excel PivotTable to read data from an Oracle View.. and its giving me ORA-01406 - fetched column value was truncated
11:30 scw has joined #perl6
11:30 castaway fetching a field less gets rid of the error (any field), fetching a line of data less (any line) gets rid of it
11:30 * castaway grrs.
11:36 glasser has joined #perl6
11:37 castaway no ideas, I take it? :)
11:37 shapr http://ora-01406.ora-code.com/
11:37 castaway yeah, BTDT
11:38 castaway Excels PivotTable stuff is a blackbox, I cant/dont define any field/buffer sizes
11:38 glasser hey, I'm trying to get pugs running on mac os x panther and am getting an error about RTLD_NEXT when compiling hs-plugins (I installed GHC 6.4 from the .pkg on the GHC site) -- has anyone else seen this?
11:38 castaway I'm copying the data to my test machine now, if it works there after importing, I'm going to claim its a corruption error on the Q&A server
11:39 shapr Are you using the latest hs-plugins nightly?
11:39 glasser tried both the latest (or maybe it was yesterday's :-) ) and the april 10th one
11:39 shapr Oh
11:39 shapr In that case, I'd recommend you ask dons
11:40 castaway or compile pugs without :)
11:40 shapr I know he was talking about a macos x problem yesterday, but I forget exactly what it was.
11:40 shapr Ah, yesterday he was talking about "unknown symbol `_stg_int64ToInt'"
11:41 glasser maybe i'll drop him an email
11:41 glasser RTLD_NEXT seems to be perfectly well defined in /usr/local/include/dlfcn.h... dunno what's up with it
11:42 shapr He's on #haskell as dons, but seems to be afk.
11:42 shapr Aussies have such weird schedules ;-)
11:43 Juerd re
11:43 nothingmuch so what's new?
11:43 nothingmuch are we switching to C?
11:43 nothingmuch is parrot going to be scrapped?
11:43 nothingmuch where can i optimize some assembly code?
11:44 * shapr snickers
11:45 * castaway grins
11:47 kungfuftr nothingmuch: didn't you hear, parrot has been moved to becoming an engine to work out the most effecient way of increasing trollers penis size by telepathy
11:47 nothingmuch oh wow
11:48 * nothingmuch starts trolling
11:48 nothingmuch who the hell does this autrijus guy think he is?
11:48 kungfuftr nothingmuch: yo mamma!
11:48 castaway :)
11:48 nothingmuch kungfuftr: you cna't do any css if haskell depended on you
11:49 * kungfuftr sobs
11:49 nothingmuch s/cna't/couldn't/
11:49 nothingmuch haha! if you would have written your *OWN* display engine in C
11:49 nothingmuch then maybe you wouldn't have to make so many logical fallacies
11:49 kungfuftr nothingmuch: ENOCOMPILERKNOWLEDGE
11:49 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
11:50 nothingmuch i don't care
11:50 nothingmuch i want you to switch to C
11:50 nothingmuch stop using haskell, you 0.0001% programmer!
11:50 castaway This is gonna get old real fast..
11:50 kungfuftr yeah, agreed
11:51 * nothingmuch doesn't feel any change yet
11:51 kungfuftr nothingmuch: with harness straps, is there a way of doing timeouts?
11:51 nothingmuch oh well, at least i tried
11:51 theorbtwo Morning, all.
11:51 gaal kff: no. :(
11:51 gaal but i'm working on it :)
11:51 nothingmuch you can subclass analyze_fh and then put an alarm in there
11:51 kungfuftr gaal++
11:51 gaal nothingmuch, that's not portable.
11:52 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
11:52 nothingmuch basa
11:52 glasser aha, got it to compile, but only by handediting /usr/local/lib/ghc-6.4/include/ghcautoconf.h. perhaps i should mention this on #haskell?
11:52 kungfuftr glasser: sounds good
11:52 castaway good idea, glasser
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11:55 elmex has quit IRC (Client Quit)
11:55 elmex has joined #perl6
11:58 * castaway -> meeting (well actually training)
12:10 glasser for the record, it looks like moving /usr/local/include/dlfcn.h out of the way (and letting the compiler see /usr/include/dlfcn.h) does the trick
12:12 gaal can i say has $:benchmark = try { use Benchmark; 1 }; ?
12:16 glasser oh, and i need to install readline somewhere nicer than /sw/include (setting CPPFLAGS doesn't seem to propogate far enough)
12:18 kungfuftr gaal: where's the try {} stuff in the synopses?
12:19 gaal kff: <S04/"Exception Handlers">
12:19 kungfuftr ah, s04
12:21 kungfuftr gaal: seems so, under "Control Exceptions" around the 'leave' stuff
12:21 gaal cool.
12:22 gaal nothingmuch: there?
12:22 nothingmuch yep
12:22 gaal any reason not to couple Test::Tap::Model with the p6 port of Test::Harness?
12:23 nothingmuch nope
12:23 nothingmuch in fact, I think Test::Harness::Straps should be two parts:
12:23 nothingmuch one more like a ::Model
12:23 nothingmuch the other more like a sax driver
12:23 gaal sax is xml domain specific btw, afaik, so your usage is confusing.
12:24 kungfuftr nothingmuch: Test::Model melarky?
12:24 nothingmuch i meant sax inspired
12:24 nothingmuch kungfuftr: melarky? what's that?
12:24 gaal event-driven parser, perhaps.
12:24 nothingmuch yes, that's what I meant
12:24 nothingmuch but it should be simple
12:24 nothingmuch =)
12:24 nothingmuch gaal: kungfuftr has big plans for ::Model, btw
12:24 kungfuftr nothingmuch: was this along the lines of the Producer -> Model?
12:24 gaal well, good :)
12:25 nothingmuch i don't know
12:25 nothingmuch maybe
12:25 nothingmuch i think Test::TAP::Producer should be an event driven parser
12:25 gaal that's not a good name
12:25 gaal since it doesn't produce TAP.
12:25 kungfuftr ah, yeah... been trying to work out a data structure to represent a testsuite result... tricky, but doable
12:25 gaal it consumes TAP.
12:26 nothingmuch and that Test::Model should be a sort of DOMish thing that knows how to be constructed from those producers
12:26 nothingmuch and not TAP specific
12:26 nothingmuch but modeled around it
12:26 nothingmuch so that it's extensible
12:26 nothingmuch but this is a big job
12:26 nothingmuch true
12:26 nothingmuch kungfuftr: i think it should be minimalist
12:26 * theorbtwo is all caught up on the backlog.
12:26 gaal nm, why bother with that?
12:26 nothingmuch TAP should be able to be modelable with it easily
12:26 nothingmuch gaal: because kungfuftr wants it ;-)
12:26 nothingmuch and because it's reusable
12:26 kungfuftr =0)
12:27 gaal kff: why bother with that?
12:27 nothingmuch Test::Harness::Straps is probably the least reusable bit of well accepted code i've ever seen
12:27 gaal :)
12:27 nothingmuch it's so hard to pull it off
12:27 kungfuftr gaal: if you 'represent' a test model, it means that you can use more than TAP and still get the same output
12:27 nothingmuch it being stuff you need
12:27 nothingmuch maybe ingy should draft us a test model
12:27 nothingmuch anyway, at that point you have reusable tools for display
12:27 * gaal is wary of overabstraction
12:27 nothingmuch and reusable harnesses
12:28 * kungfuftr tried in perl data structure but was scary
12:28 gaal TAP is named "test anything protocol" *because* it wants to be able to test anythign.
12:28 nothingmuch gaal: but it's not 100% good for stuff like huge integration tests
12:28 nothingmuch or tests with no concept of subtests
12:28 gaal so if you thingk of an actual thing it's missing, you should improve the protocol, not the "model"
12:28 nothingmuch or tests with subtest groups
12:29 nothingmuch i think this model should be able to represent the data coming out of the protocol
12:29 nothingmuch but with minimalist primitives, which can be stacked a bit
12:29 nothingmuch display modules should know how to grok the data
12:29 kungfuftr gaal: protocol != model tbh
12:29 nothingmuch the model is just a convenient way to access it
12:29 gaal of course
12:29 nothingmuch and protocols for it could be TAP
12:29 nothingmuch and YAML
12:29 nothingmuch and storable
12:29 nothingmuch and XML
12:29 nothingmuch etc etc etc
12:30 * kungfuftr starts braindumping
12:30 nothingmuch since we're all for the freepan/parrot-runs-everything concept, other languages test suites should be accommodated for
12:30 gaal but the model has to be at least as conceptually rich as anything any of its protocols supply.
12:30 kungfuftr nothingmuch: that's for reminding me!
12:30 nothingmuch no, it can be simpler
12:30 nothingmuch it can have a test case object
12:30 nothingmuch and a case group object
12:31 nothingmuch test case is a leaf in the structure
12:31 nothingmuch case group is a grouping that you can ask: what it's success ratio was
12:31 nothingmuch were all it's children skipped, etc
12:31 nothingmuch and case groups know arbitrary fields
12:31 nothingmuch bailout is a leaf
12:31 nothingmuch like 'filename', etc
12:31 nothingmuch case groups can have plans, too
12:31 nothingmuch basically, our current concept of test files should be nestable
12:31 nothingmuch and I think that's all we need
12:32 gaal sounds like all you need is another piece of metadata right next to the plan
12:32 nothingmuch no
12:32 nothingmuch TAP is good design
12:32 gaal and put a wee bit of smarts in the harness to make it context sensitive
12:32 nothingmuch i don't like nesting, i want it as it is
12:33 nothingmuch the TAP parser should create single level case groups
12:33 nothingmuch and we're happy
12:33 nothingmuch but an XML beast coming out of some other language should be representable with the tools we have
12:33 nothingmuch so that familiarity is increased
12:33 gaal i don't know whaty you mean by that.
12:34 nothingmuch in theory the parrot-hippiness concept says:
12:34 nothingmuch python heads could use the perl DBI
12:35 nothingmuch so a python head installs perl DBI from freepan
12:35 nothingmuch using familiar freepan tools
12:35 nothingmuch and runs the test suite
12:35 nothingmuch they should be able to use the same frontend to grok results for DBI as they can use for python
12:36 nothingmuch also, they should be able to write good display tools in python
12:36 nothingmuch and we would like to use them
12:36 nothingmuch where the root is the whole test suite
12:36 nothingmuch the data model is simple
12:36 nothingmuch it's a tree of success failure
12:36 nothingmuch and then there are levels which can represent:
12:36 nothingmuch directories of files
12:36 nothingmuch or cases in a unit testing framework
12:36 nothingmuch sorry, fixtures
12:37 nothingmuch and the immediate parent of the leaf in a directory of files approach is the file
12:37 nothingmuch it has cases
12:37 * theorbtwo suggests nothingmuch write that test model that he was suggesting ingy draft.
12:37 nothingmuch (that goes along well with TAP)
12:37 nothingmuch theorbtwo: you know, why not
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12:47 gaal aurtijus around?
12:48 kungfuftr bah!
12:49 kungfuftr (fire alarm systems)-- # please to be resetting properly
12:50 theorbtwo Kungfutr English speaking?
12:50 kungfuftr a test = 'ok(...)'. a testgroup = 'basic.t'... testgroups contain tests, testgroups can also contain testgroups... sounds about right
12:51 kungfuftr theorbtwo: fire alarm didn't reset properly, so went off every 2 mins for about 20 minutes
12:53 kungfuftr theorbtwo: during my lunch break too!
12:53 theorbtwo Ugh.
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13:04 Qiang has joined #perl6
13:05 kungfuftr the pugs kwiki has been hacked
13:05 kungfuftr cleaning up
13:09 stevan has joined #perl6
13:09 Limbic_Region hacked or defaced?
13:11 kungfuftr wdefaced, even... lots a links
13:19 castaway ick
13:19 * castaway returns.
13:19 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
13:26 castaway Are you guys using C yet?
13:28 rgs no, python.
13:29 castaway ah, good :)
13:30 kungfuftr bah, since when did we stop using befunge?
13:31 castaway befunge?
13:33 kungfuftr castaway: http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/befunge.html
13:34 kungfuftr nothingmuch: come up with a model, will do some hacking later... got specs to write up for now
13:35 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
13:36 nothingmuch wee! i love the holidays
13:36 nothingmuch i have 70%
13:36 nothingmuch but now i'm drunk
13:38 pjcj ah - *that's* how Haskell got chosen as the implementation language
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13:57 nothingmuch okay
13:58 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling​.org/test_result_model.pod
13:59 nothingmuch plans could be simplified
13:59 nothingmuch in the model spec
13:59 nothingmuch the model itself says what is OK, and what is not, at the group level
13:59 nothingmuch but i think the model should be smarter, not the protocols
13:59 nothingmuch and plans should be allowed this complexity
13:59 nothingmuch what's most important is, IMHO, stubbing, and interpretation
13:59 nothingmuch both for humans, and in the 'actual_ok' sense
13:59 nothingmuch this will allow any display modules to have logical results without working hard
14:00 theorbtwo I'd like a s/=item \*/=item $name/ in tere.
14:00 theorbtwo there.
14:00 nothingmuch i don't know how to name them yet, it's sort of intentional
14:01 nothingmuch do you want to name them? i'll gladly change it
14:01 nothingmuch but i think they are sort of more like lists of traits, or predicates, not so much distinguishable items
14:01 stevan_ has joined #perl6
14:01 nothingmuch morning stevan
14:01 glasser has joined #perl6
14:01 stevan_ hey nothingmuch
14:02 stevan_ nothingmuch: did you see my "no more todo_" idea?
14:02 nothingmuch i saw the mail subject
14:02 nothingmuch but didn't read
14:02 nothingmuch i'm at work, and i'm drunk anyway
14:02 stevan_ ahh
14:02 nothingmuch s/and/but/
14:02 nothingmuch so i'll read it now
14:02 theorbtwo Hm, perhaps the one ok should be named "unremarkable".
14:03 stevan_ hey theorbtwo
14:03 nothingmuch theorbtwo++
14:03 theorbtwo Allo, stevan!
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14:07 shapr @yow !
14:08 theorbtwo How now, shapr yow?
14:08 metaperl has joined #perl6
14:10 * shapr boings cheerfully
14:10 shapr theorbtwo: that's a neat response!
14:10 shapr How now brown cow? The rain in Spain falls gently on the plain.
14:11 stevan_ shapr doolittle, you'll make a fine lady some day
14:11 shapr I did it, I did it!
14:11 shapr Oim gettin married in da moynin!
14:11 shapr Weddin bellz is gonna rang!
14:11 castaway ,)
14:12 * shapr loves that musical.
14:12 shapr My favorite is Moulin Rouge, I try to sing exactly like Ewan McGregor.
14:12 shapr I'm passable, surprisingly.
14:13 shapr Passable to the point that several people tried to recruit me for the local choir.
14:13 * stevan_ turns up the volume on his IRC client, but still can't hear it
14:14 * shapr laughs
14:14 shapr I just got an iriver that records, you really wanna hear?
14:14 * shapr grins evilly
14:14 castaway yup
14:14 * alinbsp used to be in the school choir
14:14 stevan_ we can start a group ... Shapr and the Pugettes
14:15 * shapr laughs
14:15 shapr BoIP - Band over IP
14:16 stevan_ nothingmuch can play bass
14:17 stevan_ we can just autrijus a book on music theory and see what he does next :)
14:17 theorbtwo Hm, now that's interesting.  I switched CD-ROM drives in the mac; with this other one, and the Jaguar CD, I get a floppy-with-question-mark, but then a lot of disk activity... then a pause, more disk activity... but I'm still on black-and-white screen with a floppy with a question mark on it.
14:17 stevan_ theorbtwo: that means it cant find the disk
14:18 stevan_ different, but not better :)
14:18 nothingmuch =)
14:19 stevan_ theorbtwo: you might want to get OS 9 on there first
14:19 stevan_ then at least you will have a usable system from which to try other angles
14:19 theorbtwo I've heard with this motherboard that OS 9 corrupts non-Apple IDE hard-drives.
14:20 stevan_ hmm, thats not good
14:20 stevan_ did you put in a non-apple IDE drive?
14:20 decay what's a non-apple ide drive?
14:21 stevan_ an IDE drive not made by apple :)
14:21 theorbtwo Well, I think it's better; before I was getting the floppy with question mark and no disk activity.
14:21 decay stevan_: i wasn't aware they make ide drives.
14:21 theorbtwo stevan, I only bought the motherboard, no hard drive, cd drive, case, or PSU.
14:21 theorbtwo I'm a right cheap bastard.
14:21 stevan_ decay: I have no idea to be honest, but I know they have moved away from SCSI
14:22 stevan_ theorbtwo++ # building his own mac out of things he finds under his desk :)
14:22 pupilzeng has joined #perl6
14:22 theorbtwo OTOH, there is presently no data on the hard drive for it to corrupt.
14:23 theorbtwo I just wish I'd gotten a beige G3 rev 2 mobo, they are apparently a lot nicer.
14:23 stevan_ theorbtwo: you are fighting an uphill battle for sure
14:24 stevan_ theorbtwo: have you looked at CPU upgrade cards?
14:24 stevan_ or rather the websites of the companies who make them
14:24 stevan_ there should be a lot of "how do I run OS X on my old Mac" stuff there
14:25 stevan_ I would imagine that is a major part of their  business right now (making old stuff work with OS X)
14:26 stevan_ nothingmuch: did you read that email?
14:26 nothingmuch it's open, but i'm in a discussion right now
14:27 stevan_ ok
14:29 nothingmuch okk, reading now
14:30 nothingmuch sort of a todo plan?
14:30 nothingmuch TAP deprecated this sort of behavior at some point
14:30 stevan_ yes
14:30 nothingmuch it turned out to be hard to maintain
14:30 stevan_ Test::More, etc still has TODO blocks
14:30 nothingmuch i think we should have
14:31 stevan_ (which I think is the only way to do TODO)
14:31 nothingmuch is(foo, bar, "desc", :todo());
14:31 stevan_ hmm
14:31 nothingmuch instead of the functions
14:31 nothingmuch all params are named
14:31 nothingmuch but also positional
14:31 nothingmuch (does that make sense? i've had several glasses of wine, sorry)
14:31 stevan_ but that does not easily allow for no-desc  
14:31 nothingmuch why?
14:31 stevan_ which is a bad think IMO anyway
14:32 nothingmuch is(got, expected, :todo());
14:32 stevan_ is(foo, bar, undef, :todo())
14:32 nothingmuch named params make this simpler
14:32 stevan_ oh
14:32 stevan_ named params
14:32 nothingmuch is(:todo(1), got, expected, desc);
14:32 stevan_ sorry,.. didnt read that part
14:32 nothingmuch is(:todo(1); :desc("foo"), :expected("yes"), :got(get_answer));
14:32 stevan_ ok I will experiment with that
14:33 nothingmuch then on top of that I think we should allow force_todo(1..10)
14:33 nothingmuch but it shouldn't be the only way
14:33 nothingmuch this is a useful feature
14:33 nothingmuch but todo_is or is(:todo) should still be available
14:33 stevan_ I really just want to avoid reading and parsing t/force_todo each time we load Test.pm
14:33 nothingmuch as for a force_todo file, i don't really like that
14:33 nothingmuch we have something like that at work
14:33 nothingmuch it's a pain to maintain
14:33 stevan_ its actually nice to use, but hard to maintain
14:34 stevan_ exactly :)
14:34 stevan_ I think that we could remove the todo_ functions in favor of :todo()
14:34 nothingmuch i think that given a :todo named param to functions it'd be easier to say $force_todo = 1; in Test.pm
14:35 stevan_ and then have the force_todo() function in favor of the t/force_todo file
14:35 nothingmuch it's easier than casing the functions
14:35 nothingmuch and then you don't have to maintain a force to do list at all
14:35 nothingmuch all tests are just todo instead of fail
14:35 stevan_ I was thinking of a global switch of some kind
14:36 nothingmuch this could even be sensitive to the pugs version
14:36 stevan_ but sometimes I think we want to force-todo some files/tests and not others
14:36 nothingmuch if $version is release then force todo
14:36 nothingmuch force_todo as a function should be very useful
14:36 stevan_ now the wine is talking :P
14:36 nothingmuch but perhaps we can also include a t/force_todo.pl
14:37 nothingmuch a sort of rc file for tests
14:37 stevan_ I was thinking that force_todo() could write a log file if requested
14:37 stevan_ I want to avoid needing to load another file for all the tests
14:37 stevan_ it imposes a dependency on all,.. even if they dont need it/want it
14:38 stevan_ s/dependency/penalty/
14:38 nothingmuch it could be a sort of last resort
14:38 nothingmuch anyway, nevermind
14:38 nothingmuch i think at least two facilities should be there
14:38 stevan_ I think force_todo() and :todo() would be good enough
14:38 nothingmuch one at the test level, in the line where ok()/is() is called
14:38 nothingmuch and one more akin to plan()
14:39 stevan_ then a global var to turn it on and off from the suite level
14:39 nothingmuch uhuh
14:39 stevan_ kind of a failsafe switch :)
14:39 stevan_ nothingmuch++ # drunken design :)
14:40 stevan_ nothingmuch: what holiday is it BTW
14:40 nothingmuch i'm not *that* drunk
14:40 nothingmuch passover
14:40 stevan_ ahhh
14:40 nothingmuch the food is horrible
14:40 nothingmuch so i didn't have any
14:40 * theorbtwo wonders if he can get an OS 9 image.
14:40 nothingmuch but the wine is good
14:40 theorbtwo It is?  Damn, I'm a bad Jew.
14:40 nothingmuch so i had 5 and a half mini cups
14:40 stevan_ theorbtwo: I am leaving to go to $work in about 20 minutes
14:40 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i can romp around and mail you one
14:40 stevan_ but I can set you up later tonight
14:40 theorbtwo Cool, stevan.
14:41 theorbtwo Use the GUI tool this time; I'm not 100% sure that my dd command line wasn't wrong.
14:41 nothingmuch or transfer you an ISO and then mail it to you
14:41 nothingmuch in which case it would still be legal
14:41 nothingmuch stevan: did you see http://nothingmuch.woobling​.org/test_result_model.pod ?
14:41 stevan_ nothingmuch: manashevitz shots ??
14:41 stevan_ theorbtwo: .dmg ok?
14:41 theorbtwo Yeah, I can figure it out.
14:41 stevan_ I can try to dig up some other disk tools I have if not
14:42 nothingmuch stevan: what?
14:42 theorbtwo Do a "CD/DVD master" DMG, then compress that.
14:42 theorbtwo Or get nothingmuch to tell you the right way to create a .iso.
14:42 nothingmuch i don't know the right way
14:42 nothingmuch i usually dd
14:42 nothingmuch =)
14:42 nothingmuch eh, usually
14:42 nothingmuch when I had to, that's what I did
14:43 stevan_ nothingmuch: I saw that (test_result_model.pod) but havent read it yet
14:43 theorbtwo nm, what's the source file on the dd line?
14:44 nothingmuch dd if=/dev/from of=/dev/to bs=2m
14:44 nothingmuch bs makes it much faster
14:44 saorge has joined #perl6
14:44 nothingmuch especially if the controller is slow
14:44 theorbtwo Right: What should /dev/from be there?
14:44 nothingmuch (read a lot, then write a lot)
14:44 nothingmuch what OS?
14:44 nothingmuch osx boot cd? linux?
14:45 nothingmuch dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/dev/hda1
14:45 nothingmuch or equiv
14:45 nothingmuch i think i did that last time
14:45 nothingmuch only the way i really did it was using zip disks
14:45 nothingmuch and in 100MB chunks
14:45 theorbtwo There is a /dev/cdrom symlink under OSX?
14:46 nothingmuch no
14:46 nothingmuch for example /dev/disk0s0 is the first partition of the first disk we saw
14:46 nothingmuch use mount for that
14:46 nothingmuch devices are allocated dynamically
14:46 mj has quit IRC ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
14:47 theorbtwo So would /dev/disk1s1 be only one partition of a CD?
14:47 theorbtwo If it's not the whole disk, that'd explain why it doesn't boot from it, and also why the file isn't a full 700MB.
14:48 alinbsp_ has joined #perl6
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14:48 stevan_ theorbtwo: the disk was not full
14:48 nothingmuch yes
14:48 alinbsp_ is now known as alinbsp
14:48 stevan_ the two numbers matched actually
14:48 nothingmuch dd if=/dev/rdisk1 of=/dev/disk0s3 <-- whole of second disk to 3rd partition of first disk
14:50 theorbtwo stevan, can you put the disk you sourced that from in, and do a cmp jaguar-1.iso /dev/rdisk1 ?
14:51 stevan_ theorbtwo: yes, give me a moment though
14:52 * stevan_ is on the "upstairs" (non-work) computer right now
14:52 theorbtwo Thanks.
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14:57 nothingmuch gcov is so completely fucked up beyond all repair
14:57 nothingmuch my src/dir/nested/foo.cpp
14:57 nothingmuch if there are two files named 'foo', you're screwed
14:57 nothingmuch generates src/foo.da
14:57 stevan_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:57 nothingmuch you need to move them around manually to actually get some results
14:58 nothingmuch but it gets worse:
14:58 nothingmuch if you are compiling nested.cpp and nested/foo.cpp inside src/dir
14:58 nothingmuch not top level
14:58 nothingmuch not their own dirs
14:58 nothingmuch then all the files go to nested
14:58 nothingmuch but where you ran the compiler
14:59 nothingmuch so now I have the pleasure of parsing makefiles to find out which source files were compiled in which dir
14:59 nothingmuch and this is about the 10th problem like this that has been found
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15:35 * kungfuftr 's brain boils with writing specifications
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16:17 Juerd hop++
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16:29 Corion has joined #perl6
16:30 kungfuftr Corion: notes is evil!
16:30 Corion kungfuftr: ?
16:30 kungfuftr Corion: noticing yer perlmonks post
16:31 Corion kungfuftr: Of course Lotus Notes is an evil product that attracts evil people. That's why I wrote that exporter.
16:31 kungfuftr Corion: 6.5 is a _little_ better though
16:32 Corion kungfuftr: My company, as the pinnacle of technology, uses LN 4.5 after a downgrade from 5.
16:32 Corion But supposedly we will get a web frontend to email. In addition to our 150MB mailquota.
16:32 * Corion starts a pugssmoke
16:32 * Corion plays with his new toy. A VoIP/ISDN box.
16:32 shapr using asterix?
16:33 shapr um, asterisk?
16:33 Corion shapr: No, plain DSL-modem/ISDNbox/Analog adapter.
16:33 Corion But I'm afraid to make the switch from my existing setup :)
16:33 Corion ... and I haven't found the box in my network yet :)
16:34 Juerd I'm going to add [AES]\d\d to tnx.nl
16:34 Juerd So you can use tnx.nl/S03 to read synopsis 3
16:34 Corion ... but if I start begging you all to do a voice chat session, you'll know that I got it working :)
16:34 Corion Juerd :)
16:34 Juerd The long URLs drive me crazy (I don't use bookmarks)
16:34 * shapr grins
16:34 Corion Juerd: Don
16:35 Corion Juerd: Don't you have perl -MPerl::Bible -e "..." ?? :)
16:35 Juerd Too much typing too
16:35 Juerd And I actually prefer the browser for this
16:36 NathanJY well that's a nice abuse of power
16:36 NathanJY thanks for proving my point
16:37 shapr troll
16:37 glasser has joined #perl6
16:37 Corion shapr: I know. I read the logs.
16:37 Juerd NathanJY: Explain to me what you mean, please.
16:37 Corion Juerd: Read the logs
16:37 NathanJY troll = person who says thinks I don't like
16:37 shapr Juerd: he's just trying to get you to fight because he enjoys it.
16:37 shapr Look at what he said on Amazon.
16:37 NathanJY what about what I said on amazon?
16:37 shapr Look at his livejournal.
16:37 Juerd I'm trying to get the story from NathanJY himself
16:37 NathanJY All I keep seeing is Ad Hominem
16:38 NathanJY and a bunch of trolls
16:38 Juerd So I can more correctly form an opinion.
16:38 shapr NathanJY: c'est votre choix.
16:38 NathanJY I was censored in #perl for offering a dissenting opinion
16:38 obra On what topic?
16:38 obra and by someone other than sungo?
16:38 kungfuftr good for you, i hope your mother was proud of you
16:39 NathanJY by integral
16:39 Corion Well. Getting kicked from an irc channel is nothing really new.
16:39 Corion The main problem with #perl6 is that I have no ops.
16:39 NathanJY No, but freenode is supposed to be more open
16:39 shapr Juerd: I would encourage you to read the logs from earlier today.
16:39 Juerd shapr: That's a lot of work.
16:40 shapr Juerd: I believe it would be less work than talking to NathanJY directly.
16:40 Juerd Corion: The main problem with freenode is opless channels
16:40 * theorbtwo shrugs.
16:40 Juerd shapr: It appears you're right.
16:40 theorbtwo Most of the time opless channels work pretty well.
16:41 Juerd Except when they don't
16:41 NathanJY this is a case where it is
16:41 NathanJY it prevents abuse
16:41 Juerd Channels with ops work well in BOTH circumstances.
16:41 Juerd The only danger is packeting
16:41 Juerd Which I simply accept as part of life
16:41 Juerd afk  # dinner
16:41 theorbtwo Ops and free topic changes may be the best circumstance.
16:42 theorbtwo gut appitit, Jured.
16:42 NathanJY I don't understand the kind of zealotry in here
16:43 theorbtwo We don't understand your kind of zealotry either, NathanJY.
16:43 NathanJY what kind of zealotry is that?
16:43 NathanJY The kind that is open minded?
16:43 rgs no, the troll kind.
16:43 obra HNow did this become on topic for #perl6?
16:43 NathanJY In what way am  I a troll?  BEcause I offer a dissenting opinion?
16:44 shapr obra: could you please get rid of NathanJY ?
16:44 theorbtwo I read over the IRC logs of your earlier appearance here.  Nobody seemed terribly openminded.
16:44 shapr Or give me ops and I'll do it :-)
16:44 obra NathanJY: are you interested in helping to develop pugs and perl6?
16:44 NathanJY probably not
16:44 theorbtwo And, indeed, nobody understood the fallicy of calling ad hominem a fallacy.
16:45 theorbtwo Then I suggest you watch.
16:45 obra ok. That's what this channel is really for.
16:45 NathanJY I understand that, which is why I came asking questions
16:45 obra if you've got issues with the folks on #perl, it's probably best to take em up with the freenode ircops
16:45 obra since we can't do anything about them.
16:45 NathanJY they're the same as the ones in here
16:45 obra and traditionally #perl is a place for flamewars and penis jokes.
16:45 obra #perl6 is a place for getting work done.
16:45 NathanJY lol
16:45 Corion obra: #perl6 is not the place for penis jokes?
16:46 NathanJY IRC and getting work done don't belong in the same sentence
16:46 * Corion switches off his webcam and zips his pants.
16:46 NathanJY Ad Homniem IS a logical fallacy
16:46 obra NathanJY: perhaps not in your corner of IRC, but my company actually finds IRC quite useful for productive work
16:46 theorbtwo It seems to work well much of the time on this chan, Nathan.
16:46 obra so. really, this is off topic here.
16:46 theorbtwo I have no doubt that the project would move much slower without the use of IRC.
16:47 NathanJY that's what I thought, what he did was a violation of freenode policy
16:47 obra NathanJY: go tell the ircops. not #perl6
16:48 obra We mostly don't care about #perl.
16:48 NathanJY I will
16:48 NathanJY it was someone I argued with in here that +q'ed me in #perl
16:48 obra great. catch you later.
16:48 theorbtwo The 'q' bit is unvoice?
16:48 NathanJY yes it is
16:49 NathanJY I'm not leaving, I came here to ask questions about perl 6 development
16:49 * Corion waits for the first sentence of NathanJY to end with the char "?"
16:49 obra that's fine. questions about people on #perl being asshats are likely to get someone to +q you here, though.
16:49 theorbtwo Have you read PA01?
16:50 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:50 theorbtwo http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pug​s/trunk/docs/01Overview.html
16:50 theorbtwo Also http://www.perl.com/pub/a/20​05/03/03/pugs_interview.html
16:51 NathanJY actually I was asking ther since it didn't work out here, but anyway.  I was wondering why reinvent the wheel with parrot
16:51 NathanJY they could use an existing VM architecture
16:51 obra NathanJY: go read the parrot faq
16:51 NathanJY yeah I found the docs, they're pretty good, but this is more of a general question
16:51 Corion NathanJY: Why not take that up with the Parrot people?
16:51 obra they cover this pretty explicitly
16:52 NathanJY really?
16:52 * NathanJY checks
16:52 Corion r2190 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
16:52 theorbtwo Nathan: There are two sepperate efforts to implement perl6.  One is parrot, which gets talked about on the perl6-internals mailing list.  The other is pugs, which gets talked about here.
16:53 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256 smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (22/4453, r2190) Mac OS X (62/4459, r2116) | pugs.kwiki.org
16:53 theorbtwo There is presently not much overlap, but they are expected to grow together somewhat soon.
16:53 Corion Parrot is somewhat bottom up, while Pugs is top-down.
16:53 theorbtwo So if you have questions about parrot, while we are somewhat knowledgeable, we can't speak authoritatively on the matter.
16:54 Corion BTW, are we inching towards preflight or is it OK to add failing tests?
16:54 Corion (I remember reading that autrijus was revamping the whole type system/builtin type system again because of some array parsing clarifications?)
16:57 NathanJY that's certainly a better answer than i got before
16:58 Jonathan_ NathanJY: See http://www.parrotcode.org/faq/ - specifically the question "Why your own virtual machine? Why not compile to JVM/.NET?" - help?
16:59 Corion NathanJY: "WTF" is a bad start into any channel, especially if you are the first to utter that three letters that day.
16:59 Corion "day" == "last 6 hours"
17:00 Corion And calling people "only if you're a crack smoking academic pinhead" seldom gets received well if it's aimed at the people you'd like a favourable answer from.
17:01 Corion Not that crack smoking is a habit that people are not accused of, but the notion is generally not well received.
17:01 NathanJY register based instead of stack based...
17:01 chady has joined #perl6
17:01 theorbtwo Is also covered in the FAQ.
17:02 Corion Hmmm. Tye McQueen suggests the sept() and nov() builtins, so oct() doesn't feel all alone. >:-)
17:02 NathanJY yeah I'm reading out loud
17:02 NathanJY I didn't understand that decision, since I'm not sure they even make stack based architectures much anymore
17:02 Corion NathanJY: I'd prefer you'd stop that. It's bad enough seeing you move your lips while reading.
17:03 NathanJY well it's true
17:04 Jonathan_ NathanJY: The JVM is stack based, I believe the .NET VM is too. They're certainly still "making" those. :)
17:04 NathanJY I was referring to hardware
17:04 Jonathan_ Ah, OK.
17:04 NathanJY the reason they made those stack based was because of some obscure hardware
17:05 NathanJY hardware which is probably seriously deprecated now
17:05 theorbtwo Hm?  I didn't think hardware had much, if anything, dto do with it.
17:05 Corion NathanJY: You should maybe look at Sparc hardware.
17:05 Corion ... and, of course, learn Forth. The ultimate stack based language.
17:05 Corion (or Postscript)
17:06 Corion ... and use an RPN (HP) calculator.
17:06 NathanJY sparc is primarily stack based?  it doesn't use general registers?
17:06 Corion NathanJY: What are "General Registers" ?
17:06 NathanJY general purpose registers
17:06 Corion NathanJY: How does The Stack differ from General Purpose Registers, then?
17:07 glasser has quit IRC ()
17:07 NathanJY are you serious?
17:07 BigBear has quit IRC (Client Quit)
17:07 NathanJY Have you down low level programming before?
17:07 NathanJY *doe
17:07 NathanJY *done
17:07 Corion NathanJY: Sparc architecture uses the registers mostly as a cache into the stack, and can (and does) swap out register sets onto the stack.
17:07 NathanJY The reason I saw cited for making the JVM and .NET VM stack based was because of certainc archs
17:08 Corion NathanJY: You should realize that x86 is not the centre of CPU architecture.
17:08 Corion NathanJY: Now, if you know that the JVM decision was based on hardware, consider looking at the history of who designed the JVM, and what hardware they produced.
17:08 NathanJY so they're just stack pointers?
17:09 Corion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARC
17:09 NathanJY according to one doc sparc has 32 general purpose registers
17:10 Corion Yes. But they are basically a cache on the stack.
17:10 NathanJY virtual registers?
17:10 NathanJY 8 are global registers
17:10 * theorbtwo notes that the term "general purpose" seems to be rather abused with reference to registers.
17:11 NathanJY how is it abused?
17:11 Corion NathanJY: What is the difference between a "virtual register", a "memory location", and a "real register" for you?
17:11 NathanJY 8, that's more than x86 has
17:11 NathanJY one is stored in memory, the other is an actual physical register
17:12 theorbtwo I seem to recall some MIPS document I was reading saying that one of the general purpose registrars was hardwired to 0, which does not seem very general-purpose to me.
17:12 NathanJY considering that sparc has 8 physical general purpose regs, I don't see why it would be considered more stack based than other archs like x86
17:12 Corion NathanJY: So, what is a "register", other than a cache for memory?
17:12 NathanJY a register is a special kind of memory
17:12 NathanJY have you studied computer architecture?
17:12 Corion NathanJY: Read the Wikipedia article I linked to, look for the term "register window".
17:13 Corion NathanJY: No, but then again, I don't design on Parrot either.
17:13 elmex has joined #perl6
17:13 theorbtwo You haven't?
17:13 NathanJY physical registers are the "lowest level" memory you can have
17:13 Corion theorbtwo: Well, having a zero always handy is quite convenient, especially if all constants eat up 32bit memory otherwise :)
17:13 NathanJY they're even faster than L1 cache
17:14 NathanJY it seems these stack based ones would be stored in the cpu cache and main memory
17:14 Corion theorbtwo: Nope, only mathematics.
17:14 theorbtwo This is true, Corion, but still not very general, if it's read-only.
17:14 NathanJY theorbtwo: I woudln't consider a read only one general purpose
17:15 NathanJY that would mean they're read/write and you can perform integer arithmetic, at the very least
17:15 Corion theorbtwo: But it saves a lot of memory :)
17:15 theorbtwo I agree, Nathan, thus me considering it an abuse of the term.
17:15 NathanJY the "register window" doesn't negate the fact that there are 8 physical registers
17:15 Corion Anyway. If you want to discuss CPU technology, #perl6 is not really the channel.
17:15 theorbtwo True enough.  I can certianly see the point of having it there.  I just wouldn't call it general purpose.
17:16 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.2/20050317]")
17:16 Corion NathanJY: The article I linked to (please read it!!!) talks of more than 8 registers.
17:16 NathanJY I know that, you're missing the point though
17:16 Corion Anyway - away,playing with my new toy.
17:16 castaway toys++
17:17 Corion castaway: Indeedy :) I just need to find out how to access it at all, without installing the software :)
17:17 theorbtwo BTW, I'd really call the current parrot design more of a mix of register-based and stack based then either.
17:18 theorbtwo In any case, if you want to talk about parrot, #perl6 is the wrong channel.
17:18 NathanJY anyway, the point is that translating register based bytecode->sparc code woudl be no problem
17:18 * castaway sighs cos here gadgets are dying like flies, as of late.
17:18 NathanJY I don't know what they are, but I know there are some really weird archs that don't really have general purpose regs at all
17:19 NathanJY everything is done on the stack
17:19 theorbtwo The JVM is like that, for one.
17:19 NathanJY I mean actual hardware, not virtual machines
17:19 * theorbtwo shrugs.
17:19 autrijus greetings lambdacamels!
17:20 theorbtwo Parrot is a VM.
17:20 theorbtwo Ah, hello, autrijus!
17:20 NathanJY .NET was made stacked based too, supposedly for the same reason--because translating register based bytecode to stack based archs would cause a probelm
17:20 autrijus I'm happy to report I finally prevailed in rewriting everything! ;)
17:20 NathanJY I know
17:20 * obra snickers
17:20 Corion autrijus++ # rewriting
17:20 Corion autrijus: Committed already?
17:20 theorbtwo How's the cold, or whatever it is?
17:20 autrijus well, still got a bit cold, but gradually recovering
17:20 castaway "E"verything ?
17:21 Corion shapr: BTW, I don't know if castaway told you, but when I get the problem of a compilation failure with "make optimized", I need a "make clean", or I need to wipe src/
17:21 Corion (and "svn up" again)
17:21 autrijus castaway: no, not really, just 19 files out of 30 or so
17:21 autrijus Corion: it's in as r2191
17:21 autrijus now I'm sure it will kill the tree :D
17:21 * Corion updates
17:21 * autrijus didn't "make test"
17:22 * Corion does
17:22 autrijus danke
17:22 Corion autrijus: I thought that's what we're for :))
17:22 autrijus Corion: thanks :))
17:22 * theorbtwo is glad he figured out how to use retEmpty instead of inlining it.
17:22 autrijus theorbtwo++
17:22 castaway eep!
17:23 Corion Pugs builds again. Now, starting a smoke :))
17:23 Corion autrijus++ # changing the tree and still leaving the build intact
17:23 autrijus Corion: it will probably infinite loop somewhere
17:23 autrijus quicksort loops
17:23 autrijus I'm looking into it
17:23 pjcj slowsort
17:23 Corion autrijus: Ah well - I'm a cpansmoker. I know such stuff.
17:24 Corion Oh. Quite a lot of "pugs: assoc" output. I guess that means that the test failed :)
17:24 Corion And parsefails.
17:24 autrijus pugs:assoc?
17:24 Corion But Test.pm seems to be left intact.
17:24 pupilzeng has quit IRC ("Bye")
17:24 Corion autrijus: I don't know anything else - the smoke harness doesn't let on more :)
17:24 Corion autrijus: I'll run one offending test without the harness
17:25 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
17:25 * theorbtwo ponders moving from ghc --make to a real makefile.
17:25 theorbtwo (Would mean it can use both cores.)
17:25 Corion Hmmm. The only output for t\builtins\die.t is "1..3\npugs: assoc"
17:25 Jonathan_ has quit IRC ("Mmmm....curry time. :)")
17:26 Corion autrijus: Dunno what that should signify though.
17:26 Corion Happens on a lot of builtins, but not on all (about every third or fourth fails)
17:26 Corion Let's wait for the smoke to finish
17:26 autrijus yeah.
17:26 Corion Heh. This VoIP box has a preset for eMule/eDonkey right in the firmware :-)
17:27 Corion ... they know their customers it seems :-)
17:27 theorbtwo Sounds nifty.
17:27 theorbtwo I take it you found the IP?
17:27 WildPikachu has joined #perl6
17:28 WildPikachu has left "Leaving"
17:29 Corion theorbtwo: Yep - praise Google and the secondary modem :-)
17:30 Corion theorbtwo: And so far, the service by 1und1 was OK - they only gave out some misinformation, and cancelled that misinformation one day later. Other than that, everything works.
17:30 theorbtwo Cool!
17:32 theorbtwo How much is it, all-told, and for-what?
17:32 theorbtwo s/for-/for /
17:33 Corion theorbtwo: tallying
17:34 Corion 35 EUR/mth for the 3MBit/384kbit line, plus 25 EUR/mth for the phone line
17:34 Corion (including flat IP access)
17:34 Corion Oh - t/examples/examples.t is in an infinite loop it seems)
17:35 Cctoide has joined #perl6
17:35 castaway and the provider?
17:35 Cctoide has left
17:35 Corion castaway: 1und1 / T-Com backbone. I'm still on via T-Com though (until I get the other modem working)
17:36 Corion Oh. All the OO tests seem to fail with "pugs: assoc"
17:36 autrijus ugh, quicksort() was interpreted as a quoting construct.
17:36 autrijus wtf?
17:36 autrijus q:uicksort<>
17:36 Corion qu...u ?
17:36 Corion autrijus: Oh :)
17:37 Corion There's a reason why Perl5 doesn't allow alpha-chars after "q" in quoting constructs :)
17:37 castaway Actual access is included in that? flat rate?
17:37 Corion Hmmm. Seems like I got to load a new firmware before I can change the IP address of that box...
17:37 Corion castaway: Yep. 25EUR/mth for the line, 10EUR or 7EUR for the flat rate
17:38 Corion I should get the 7EUR/mth thing, but I haven't seen the confirmation. Hmm. I should simply go and look.
17:38 theorbtwo IIRC that's both much cheaper and much better then what we have now.
17:38 Corion theorbtwo: Which was the reason why I took the plunge.
17:38 Corion It's three times the speed from what I have now, plus shiny toy, and cheaper than what I pay now.
17:39 Corion And 1und1 have a good web front end to all their services. Just pray you don't need a human to clear things.
17:39 theorbtwo /we may change after you've guinea-pigged for a few weeks.
17:40 Corion And VoIP -> POTS within Germany is 0.01EUR/min - cheap (not that you'll need it)
17:40 Corion theorbtwo: Yeah :-) I'm doing that guinea pig thing for a lot of people. I should activate my 1und1 reseller thing and get a commission :)
17:41 Corion They seem to throw a homepage account and email account and some other useless junk into the deal as well.
17:41 Corion Not that I care.
17:42 * Corion considers unplugging one modem and plugging in the other.
17:43 theorbtwo I used to think our service was pretty good.  Then they started getting much much worse about 6 months ago.
17:43 castaway oh, thats phone included ?
17:43 castaway (as in, both or nothing)
17:44 castaway Corion, german quiz out of my magazine: "Grossen eindruck machen" bedeutet, jemandem zu: a) impraegnieren, b) importieren, c) imponieren :)
17:45 Corion castaway: No. My phone (ISDN) line is still with DTAG
17:45 Corion castaway: :))
17:45 castaway ah
17:46 Corion castaway: But now I have the option of doing VoIP -> POTS, which T-Online only offered recently, and more expensive, and I didn't have the bandwidth
17:46 Corion (because with 3Mbit/384, telephoning should have much less latency :))) )
17:46 castaway ah ok
17:46 Corion ... while there's a torrent outside of the window :)
17:46 castaway bittorrent? ;)
17:46 Corion err - tornado, I wanted to say, obviously. Like flogging a dead donkey.
17:47 * castaway frowns
17:47 castaway 25 for phone? we're paying an average of 40 (and hardly using it)
17:48 castaway thats including tax?
17:48 Corion castaway: For the naked two ISDN lines I think I pay 25EUR. And since I guess that most of my future calls will go out via VoIP, that won't be much more.
17:48 Corion castaway: Yep - I always think of prices as including tax :)
17:49 Corion castaway: I have to do the exact tallies soonish
17:49 castaway odd then, we have bog std ISDN (I hope/think)
17:50 theorbtwo Ah.  The prices you're paying sound almost reasonable.
17:50 crysflame i cannot wait for aacplus voip
17:50 * Corion goes looking at the invoices.
17:50 crysflame 48kbi/s carries somafm at cd quality
17:50 crysflame imagine how little voice takes
17:50 crysflame speaking of
17:50 theorbtwo crys: The problem is not actually bandwidth so much as latency and constancy.
17:52 Corion Ah. No. I pay 30EUR/mth for the ISDN lines (DTAG). Plus 20EUR/mth for DSL1000 line (DTAG), plus 30EUR/mth for the flatrate (DTAG).
17:52 castaway ahh
17:52 castaway and after?
17:52 crysflame theorbtwo: constancy?
17:52 chady has quit IRC ("brb")
17:52 Corion Now I'll pay 30EUR/mth for the ISDN lines (DTAG), 25EUR/mth for the DSL300 line (1und1), plus 7 EUR/mth for the flatrate (1und1)
17:52 theorbtwo The quality characteristics of the connection shouldn't vary over time much.
17:53 Corion So I basically go from 50EUR/mth for IP connectivity to 32EUR/mth for (better) IP connectivity.
17:53 crysflame so the way that aacplus gracefully degrades as packets are dropped, like realaudio, as opposed to introducing static, like mp3, would be a dramatic advantage over mp3 encoding of voice
17:53 Corion s!'ll!'m going to! # as my english teacher tries to teach me
17:54 * theorbtwo shrugs.
17:55 castaway *g*
17:58 * castaway cant find the dsl-line payments in the bankapp..
18:01 autrijus how's the smoke?
18:02 glasser has joined #perl6
18:04 Corion updated - sorry :)
18:05 Corion r2191 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
18:05 autrijus np :)
18:05 Corion ... and it's red :)
18:05 * autrijus braces for impact
18:05 Corion 2198 ok, 2135 failed
18:05 Corion :-)
18:05 autrijus that's... very red
18:05 Corion Most of the failures are parsefails that prevent the test from starting at all.
18:06 Corion That ominous "pugs: assoc"
18:06 Corion thing.
18:06 autrijus got it.
18:10 * autrijus summons unsafePerformIO
18:10 autrijus should be fixed now as r2193 :)
18:10 autrijus mind starting a new round?
18:10 autrijus I'll investigate real failures now
18:10 Corion autrijus: updated to r2193
18:10 Corion rebuilding
18:11 stevan has joined #perl6
18:11 autrijus GHC++ # unsafePerformIO
18:13 Corion Looks much better now. Two parsefails in t\builtins\io\io_in_while_loops.t / t\builtins\io\io_in_for_loops.t
18:13 * castaway wonders idly if Corion has any Welle Erdball
18:13 Corion (the rest seems to pass/fail within Harness, so I can only comment about that later)
18:13 Corion "Welle Erdball" ?
18:14 castaway yes.. its music, of a sort
18:14 autrijus I should give more ominous error messages in the future
18:14 autrijus like "values of £] will give rise to dom!"
18:14 castaway DOM ?
18:14 hattmoward ++
18:14 theorbtwo That'd be in the POD parser?
18:14 autrijus lol :p
18:17 Corion I should make an Ajax app, so you all can watch my smoke test progress :)
18:18 * castaway wonders if "Ngugen" means anything, or its just a popular surname..
18:18 Corion castaway: I know "Nguyen" as a surname
18:18 castaway oops, may have miscopied
18:19 Corion t/examples/examples.t still has an infinite loop.
18:19 cogurov has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:21 * theorbtwo wonders what unsafePreformIO has to do with it.
18:22 Corion theorbtwo: Debugging tool :)
18:22 Corion theorbtwo: Like printf () :)
18:22 Corion err - (printf ...)
18:22 theorbtwo Er, that'd be trace.
18:22 theorbtwo trace (do this) (return this)
18:22 Corion theorbtwo: Hmmm. True. trace() uses unsafePerformIO...
18:23 theorbtwo No, though, he's doing unsafePreformIOs on AST.hs lines 1097-8.
18:23 glasser has quit IRC ()
18:23 Corion theorbtwo: Ah... Let's assume he knows what he's doing there, then ;)
18:26 autrijus :p
18:26 autrijus theorbtwo: Rule isn't in Eval yet.
18:26 theorbtwo Oh, that makes sense then.
18:26 glasser has joined #perl6
18:27 autrijus so to read from ICode I need to do some readonly trick.
18:27 autrijus it's safe, too, so I'm not too worried.
18:27 * theorbtwo shrugs.
18:27 theorbtwo I do tend to assume that autrijus knows what he's talking about... but it would be nice if it made sense to me.
18:27 theorbtwo Why it is safe?
18:28 autrijus because during Parse time the content of Ref won't change.
18:28 autrijus the problem of unsafePerformIO is:
18:28 autrijus 1. you can't control when it will run
18:28 autrijus 2. you can't control how many times it will run
18:28 autrijus but in our case, since we are merely reading from tabulaRasa
18:28 autrijus and it won't change during the parse
18:28 autrijus (since we don't have BEGIN)
18:28 theorbtwo Ah, but in this case it really is pure, the language just doesn't know it.
18:28 autrijus then we don't care about 1. and 2.
18:28 autrijus yes.
18:29 Corion r2193 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
18:29 Corion 4206 ok, 134 failed
18:29 Corion Much better :)
18:30 Corion Oh. And one unexpected success - is rw seems to work better now :)
18:30 theorbtwo Much better indeed.
18:30 Corion Ah. The parser seems to understand "is rw" now. :)
18:31 autrijus =)
18:32 Corion I'll go offline now and switch the modems around. Hopefully I'll be back in a few minutes, using my new provider. :)
18:33 castaway good luck!
18:35 glasser has quit IRC ()
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18:41 Corion has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:45 glasser has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:53 stevan autrijus: I am going to pick up a Haskell book on my way home from work tonight
18:53 autrijus stevan: ooh. which?
18:53 stevan I was going to ask you which one :)
18:53 stevan I doubt they will have Algorithms
18:54 stevan so which is better
18:54 stevan Craft or School?
18:54 autrijus if have to make a choice... School I think
18:54 stevan ok
18:54 autrijus but Algorithms is really more recommended... although you know that :)
18:54 stevan its also more expensive :)
18:56 stevan although maybe if they have it there, I wont be able to resist :)
18:57 Corion has joined #perl6
18:57 Corion I live again! :)))
18:58 castaway yay!
18:58 Corion Now for the fun part of actually configuring the box :)
18:59 theorbtwo Welcome back to the land of the ip-addressable.
19:01 shapr has quit IRC ("Last train to the Sun")
19:02 castaway /me points Corion at RTL
19:02 castaway (bikes ,)
19:03 Corion Hmmm. This box even has a ddns client built-in - nifty. (No wonder though, as it is a linux box)
19:03 theorbtwo Blatant Charlie's Angles ripoff.
19:03 Corion castaway: I don't have a TV. I would have to go over into my fathers room ;)
19:03 castaway ah, shame.. its kinda funny tho
19:03 * Corion goes look
19:03 theorbtwo What happened to that media box you bought a couple months ago.
19:03 theorbtwo s/\./?/
19:03 theorbtwo It's on commercial at the moment.
19:04 Corion yeah. Commercials.
19:04 Corion theorbtwo: I didn't buy it yet.
19:05 BigBear has joined #perl6
19:07 castaway oooh a fuzzy bear?
19:10 broquaint has joined #perl6
19:10 castaway commercials over!
19:10 castaway bro!
19:10 mj41 WinXP, Linking ... src/Main.o(.text+0x22ca):ghc2096.hc: undefined reference to `PugsziEval_a6_closure'
19:10 castaway brrrrmm
19:13 theorbtwo You might want to try a make clean.
19:13 mj41 hmm ... i deleted src/Main.o .hi  and seems ok now
19:14 mj41 my _go.bat do make clean, i think
19:15 broquaint Hey, c.
19:15 castaway ooh life :)
19:15 broquaint Is there some kind of page, or some such, that has a list of software to get this pugs dealie running?
19:15 castaway where you living these days, btw?
19:15 broquaint The big L.
19:15 castaway GHC 6.4
19:15 theorbtwo broquaint: GHC 6.4
19:16 castaway umm, yup, but which part? (the L being sizable ,)
19:16 theorbtwo Everything else is optional or included.
19:16 broquaint Wow, nifty.
19:16 broquaint Time for some downloading. Thank theorbtwo, castaway.
19:17 broquaint s/nk/nks/
19:17 broquaint Cool, the Haskell page doesn't look like an academic web page from 1994 anymore.
19:23 Corion broquaint: :)
19:24 Juerd re
19:28 stevan hmmm, many undefined symbols when compiling pugs. I `make clean`-ed first and tried both make and make optimized
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19:41 Corion Oh. rx:perl5 was broken.
19:41 Corion Which makes the smoke output a bit ugly :)))
19:42 Corion So that's supposed to be fixed via perl -i.bak -pe 's!rx:perl5!rx:P5!g' # right?
19:42 * Corion now has a VoIP phone. Yay :)
19:44 castaway ooh
19:46 broquaint Holy crap it works.
19:47 Corion Now I just need to find out how to do VoIP <-> VoIP calls without going through the provider :)
19:48 castaway grats bro!
19:48 Corion Hah. THe smoke test smoked out one test that doesn't use Test.pm ! Bad test! :)
19:48 castaway grats bro!
19:49 Corion stevan: Nuke src/ and check out again...
19:49 Corion Grr. I find a good torrent website and the day after that, it goes offline.
19:50 broquaint Thanks, c :) It's amazing what people gegt
19:50 broquaint s/gegt/get up to when I'm away ;)/
19:51 stevan_ has joined #perl6
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20:01 Corion Hmmm. Does r2197 work for anybody? I get failures in Test.pm due to "Perl 6 rules is not implemented yet, use :P5", but before I start digging ...
20:01 mj41 pugs t\statements\for.t   Perl 6 rules is not implemented yet, use :P5  Val (VStr "\\\\")
20:01 mj41 same with nmake test
20:02 broquaint So ... just implement Perl 6 rules?
20:02 stevan_ Corion: I cannot even get 2197 to compile :)
20:03 Corion stevan_: rm -rf src/ ; svn up # doesn't work for you?
20:03 Corion broquaint: :)
20:03 theorbtwo I get the same error, Corion.
20:03 stevan_ Corion: I will give that a try
20:03 Corion Pugs did have P5 regexes :)
20:04 Corion Ah. So it's not just me. Comforting :)
20:04 broquaint Now if we just implement Perl 6 rules in Prolog and integrate that with the Haskell implementation of Perl 6, we'l have ... trouble.
20:05 autrijus :p
20:05 theorbtwo Sounds scary.
20:05 autrijus that :P5 Val thing is fixed
20:05 autrijus committing
20:05 Corion autrijus++
20:06 Corion Hmmm. Now I can safely remove my old T-Online email address (that I never gave out anyway :) )
20:07 theorbtwo autrijus, have anything on PA02?
20:07 theorbtwo The rules error seems gone.
20:08 Corion Smoke now proceeds :)
20:11 stevan_ are we still planning 6.2.1 for to(day|night)?
20:14 mj41 new tutorial generator needs   t\statements\for.t    ( failed 10 tests of 23, not ok 23 - for @list -> $num is rw { $num++ } # TODO )
20:15 mj41 at least :-)
20:18 mj41 has anybody have r205? test result for statement/for.t ?
20:20 ingy Perl6-Bible-0.15 released to cpan
20:20 Corion mj41: You mean, I should make my smoke tests browseable by date/time? Not a bad idea actually ...
20:21 Corion Except that the links to the test files would become stale. But who cares about that ...
20:23 theorbtwo You could keep around a test tree for each version.
20:23 theorbtwo But I'm not sure it's worth the disk space.
20:23 theorbtwo You can always svn up -r2050 and get it again.
20:24 Corion r2198 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
20:24 Corion theorbtwo: Yep, it's not worth it IMO.
20:24 Corion 214 failed
20:26 theorbtwo changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r2198/winxp: 214/4340 smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum/me wonders (22/4453, r2190) Mac OS X (62/4459, r2116) | pugs.kwiki.org
20:26 theorbtwo D'oh, changed the wrong one.
20:26 theorbtwo changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256 smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (22/4453, r2190) Mac OS X (62/4459, r2116) | pugs.kwiki.org
20:27 theorbtwo changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (214/4453, r2198) Mac OS X (62/4459, r2116) | pugs.kwiki.org
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20:30 mj41 Corion: Browsable and with diffs ... http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/index.cgi?diff_r​evision=1.1&amp;action=Diff&amp;page_id=Pug​s+on+MS+Windows+-+actual+test+results&amp;c​urrent_revision=1.5&amp;last_revision=1.5
20:36 _metaperl has joined #perl6
20:38 mj41 mj is confused, r2069 "-> $val is rw" failed too, duno how he debuged new tutorial_gen few days ago
20:40 theorbtwo Time to get my eyes off of the screen.
20:41 Juerd Need a spatula?
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20:41 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
20:42 nothingmuch evening
20:42 stevan_ hey nothingmuch
20:42 stevan_ strange it seems that the t/force_todo file is no longer getting read
20:42 stevan_ with the latest version
20:43 nothingmuch what's up?
20:43 * nothingmuch is so out of date
20:46 _metaperl is now known as metaperl
20:47 stevan_ oh,.. I see why
20:47 stevan_ hmmmm
20:47 stevan_ $?FILE is no longer reporting the test file name... but Test.pm instead
20:47 stevan_ hmmm
20:47 stevan_ do we have a proper module container now?
20:48 ninereasons has joined #perl6
20:49 stevan_ oh well... all the more reason to remove the t/force_todo file
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20:53 ninereasons <mj41> as anybody have r205? test result for statement/for.t ?
20:53 ninereasons I can get you 2048, or 2090, would that help?
20:56 mj41 I am madman ... r2055 for.t failed ... but  few days ago .... http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj​/attach/pugs/fool/ctest.p6
20:57 broquaint Could someone point me to documentation for the IO operators, a la =$io etc?
20:58 mj41 ninereasons: for.t test results? r2048 please
20:58 ninereasons ok, mj41, I'll run it and let you know
21:00 mj41 or  pugs -e "my %h = hash ( a => 1, b => 2 ); for %h.values -> $val is rw { $val = 10; }"
21:01 ninereasons Can't modify constant item
21:01 ninereasons Val (VInt 10)
21:02 ninereasons looking on another machine for other versions around that time.
21:03 ninereasons nope. sorry, mj41 those are the nearest that i have to r205x
21:05 mj41 i found r1900 - t/statements/for.t                              23    1   4.35%  23
21:06 mj41 r2198 - Looks like you failed 10 tests of 23
21:12 ninereasons 2048 fails 11 of 23
21:14 stevan_ a number of these "new" failures are because t/force_todo is no longer being read
21:15 mj41 never mind, I will wait for "is rw" once more :-)
21:18 stevan_ those tests in for.t were forced-TODO
21:18 stevan_ so they were always failing,.. they only just now showed up because $?FILE was changed/fixed
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21:21 mj41 stavan_: ee ... i do s/todo_// and unlink force_test ... see http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/index.cgi?​Pugs%20on%20MS%20Windows%20-%20tests and only 23 failed
21:23 stevan_ mj41: is that for r1900?
21:24 mj41 but nmake test use C:\Perl6\lib , and i didn't do make install ... so may be buggy
21:24 mj41 yes r1900
21:24 Corion "make install" isn't necessary, but "make" is, so blib6/lib gets created
21:25 ninereasons hm.  for my r1877 and r1919, the results are exactly the same as current, mj41
21:27 mj41 trust me ... ctest.p6 ran ok :-)
21:27 * ninereasons trusts everyone.
21:27 ninereasons just enjoying the mystery, mj41 :-)
21:28 stevan_ Corion: I am seeing a bunch of tests breaking which I hadnt seen before,.. is that normal
21:28 stevan_ I am trying to test the removal of the t/force_todo code,.. so I want to be sure all is well before I svn commit
21:28 Corion stevan_: autrijus has been reworking some internals, so there might be intermediate failures
21:29 stevan_ Corion: ok, sounds good then
21:29 stevan_ well I am going to let this test run finish, then I am going to commit the new Test.pm
21:29 stevan_ with removed t/force_todo functionality
21:29 stevan_ and also a bunch of chnages to test files
21:29 stevan_ if they were listed in t/force_todo, then I added a force_todo() call in them
21:30 stevan_ this might actually make the test run a little bit faster since we never need to read t/force_todo anymore
21:30 Corion stevan_: Nice idea!
21:30 mj41 stevan++
21:31 ninereasons but does that divert from the 'central maintenance' goal?
21:31 mj41 without force_todo tests refactoring is easier
21:31 stevan_ ninereasons: central maintence was not really working IMHO
21:31 stevan_ and since we have soo many test files
21:32 stevan_ I actually think maintaing on a per file basis will be easier
21:32 ninereasons it's certainly worth a try
21:33 Corion I think local maintenance is better, as we seem to keep most tests in force_todo status anyway.
21:33 stevan_ thats why SVN is so great :) if it doesnt work,.. svn up -r 2199
21:34 stevan_ if I get a chance tonight, I am going to remove the todo_* functions in favor of a 'todo' named parameter as well
21:34 stevan_ which will slim down Test.pm (again hopefully making the test run a little faster)
21:34 ninereasons so, have you already gone through all those tests, and added the new force_todo() calls , stevan_ ?
21:34 stevan_ ninereasons: yes
21:35 ninereasons wow.
21:35 stevan_ I am commiting now actually
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21:35 stevan_ ninereasons: the real PITA will be converting the todo_* calls to use the named param
21:37 ninereasons what's ext/Test/t/2-force_todo.t ?
21:37 stevan_ ok r2200 up,... no more t/force_todo
21:37 stevan_ ninereasons: that tests the functionality,..
21:37 stevan_ svn up to see the latest version though
21:38 ninereasons ah. I see.
21:38 stevan_ very simple,.. much like plan()
21:38 stevan_ force_todo(1, 2, 3 .. 10);
21:38 ninereasons yeah.  this looks like it will work great
21:39 stevan_ ninereasons: thanks :)
21:39 stevan_ ok,.. its time for me to drive home... have a good one all
21:39 ninereasons bye; stevan++
21:41 Corion the r2199 smoke has landed (and I won't run any more smoke tests within the next 24 hours I guess :) )
21:43 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
21:45 mj41 good night
21:46 stevan_ has left "Leaving"
21:52 mj41 has left
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21:59 stevan_ nothingmuch: ping
21:59 nothingmuch pong
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22:27 Limbic_Region_ anyone with the time/energy to explain to me what the 2000 line patch autrijus checked in today means?
22:28 broquaint Fixed context when functions return, I think.
22:30 broquaint So one instead of the one type that was previously the 3 seperate contexts are now supported. Or at least that what I've interpreted from the use.perl.org posts.
22:30 * Limbic_Region_ should just read the IRC log
22:31 * Limbic_Region_ is T-I-R-E-D though
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23:50 Limbic_Region_ out of curiosity, how many tests were failing in the smoke before the 2k line patch to fix context?
23:52 broquaint Only a couple, I think.
23:54 Limbic_Region_ ok - but comparatively speaking  4340 test cases: 4162 ok is pretty good
23:55 * Limbic_Region_ is continously amazed by this project

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