Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-22

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00:39 * nothingmuch ♥ Set::Object
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02:27 nothingmuch *yawn*
02:27 * nothingmuch goes to sleep
02:33 * mugwump tucks nothingmuch in
02:33 * nothingmuch changes his mind actually
02:33 nothingmuch mugwump: Class::ISA isn't necessary in the spork fix
02:33 nothingmuch we only need to traverse one namespace level
02:34 mugwump ok, well that makes it a lot simpler :)
02:34 nothingmuch indeed =)
02:34 nothingmuch otherwise i'd have used Devel::Symdump->rnew(ref $self)
02:34 nothingmuch btw, if Spork want Spiffy and Spoon and Kwiki and whatnot
02:34 nothingmuch why not Devel::Symdump too?
02:35 mugwump only a probably irrational tendency to see a module name like that and think "that's for development, not 'production' code" :)
02:35 * nothingmuch agrees that it's wrongly named
02:35 nothingmuch it should be Symbol::Traverse
02:37 mugwump Yes - introspection isn't development only
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02:43 * nothingmuch ponders writing Class::Methods::Suicidal
02:43 nothingmuch methods that happen once per instance
02:43 nothingmuch and then then call SUPER::
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04:06 gantrixx so I'm just starting to fool around with Perl6
04:06 gantrixx I've downloaded and build parrot
04:06 gantrixx how do I get Perl6?
04:08 gantrixx this channel has a lot of people not talking
04:08 mugwump we're thinking
04:09 obra we're also sleeping
04:09 obra gantrixx: www.pugscode.org
04:09 gantrixx so is there a daily build I can dowload?
04:10 mugwump we're not doing binary releases of pugs yet... after 6.28, perhaps
04:10 mugwump some people are though
04:11 mugwump gantrixx: you'll also need ghc 6.4 or newer
04:12 gantrixx ghc?
04:12 gantrixx I don't even know what that is
04:12 gantrixx Here is my concern folks
04:12 gantrixx I've been using perl for a long time
04:13 gantrixx I love perl, but ther is a stong move toward python advocacy
04:13 gantrixx I believe that Perl6 will address all the shortcommings of perl5 and hopefully will obsolete python
04:14 obra gantrixx: perl6 is still in the early development phase. It has a way to go.
04:14 obra a long way, even
04:14 gantrixx I'm getting ready to start a contract with a 10 year development cycle and I have to make an arguement to the powers that be to stick with perl5/6 and not use python
04:14 mugwump gantrixx: that's a fairly long cycle :)
04:14 gantrixx DoD, c'est la vie
04:15 obra do you expect to switch languages midstream?
04:15 obra (perl5 to perl6)
04:15 gantrixx so they don't want to invest in a lot of perl development if in 5 years everyone is using python and perl5 is not supported
04:15 gantrixx yes, I do expect to start off in perl5 and then migrate to perl6
04:16 mugwump hmm, start in ruby perhaps.
04:17 mugwump ruby -> perl 6 will be easier (IMHO) than perl 5 -> perl 6
04:17 mugwump Sure, Larry's doing his Perl 5 to Perl 6 converter and all, but I think it will suffer from the same problem as the shell to Perl converter
04:18 gantrixx if it can't be done in C/C++, Perl, and HTML then I don't think it needs to be done
04:18 mugwump sure, I understand that.
04:18 gantrixx I'm tired of relearning the tools of the profession every 3 years
04:20 gantrixx so do I spend my time learning Perl6 or Python
04:20 gantrixx because there are a lot of the software engineers that are advocating python
04:21 mugwump That choice is a no brainer really, after all...
04:21 obra It does have a big advantage over perl6.
04:21 gantrixx I guess they are trying to predict 5 years in the future
04:21 mugwump "Not having a choice streamlines the thought process" -- GvR
04:21 obra It exists now.
04:21 gantrixx seriously?  you would choose Python over Perl6?
04:22 obra If I had to write production code in the next six months? Hell, yes.
04:22 gantrixx that is why I'm investigating Perl6 now to see if I should stick with the Perl advocates or jump in with the Python guys
04:22 obra I'd prefer perl5, but if I was asked to pick one or the other.
04:22 obra perl6 is a development project. Autrijus runs pugs in production.  But he's special ;)
04:22 gantrixx well of course we would use Perl5 now, but 5 years from now we would be writting in Perl6
04:23 mugwump there are lots of programming constructs that can't be expressed simply in python due to GvR's insistence not to include any higher order stuff
04:25 gantrixx so do you think Perl6 will really be ready Q3 2005?
04:25 gantrixx or is this another mozilla project?
04:25 mugwump gantrixx: have a look at the pugs codebase and examples, a serious amount of the language is already working
04:30 obra gentrixx: how much time can you volunteer to help perl6 along?
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04:34 gantrixx They will allow me to donate some of my Perl6 work on the job back to the community
04:34 gantrixx "some"
04:34 gantrixx it is a DoD contract
04:34 gantrixx but if I write an snmp module that is generic, they don't mind if I donate that back to the community
04:35 mugwump the challenge will be writing the Perl 5 code in a way that can be easily ported to Perl 6
04:35 mugwump And making sure your test suite is *comprehensive* enough to spot interpreter bugs
04:35 gantrixx well, to be honest, it isn't uncommon to completely rewrite some stuff so I'm not that worried about it
04:37 gantrixx what is the glasgow haskel compiler?
04:37 stevan gantrixx: Pugs is written in Haskell
04:37 mugwump haskell is a functional language, a dialect of ML
04:38 stevan so you need it to compile pugs
04:38 gantrixx why not, we are short on reinvented wheels
04:39 stevan gantrixx: I think you will have a hard time future-proofing a 10 year project
04:40 mugwump For instance, if you were to use Class::Tangram as an accessor generator package, it would be fairly trivial to mechanically convert the Class::Tangram class definitions to Perl 6 Class definitions
04:40 stevan and I would be surprised if you didn't re-write major portions of it regardless of the language you use
04:40 mugwump (not to say that Class::Tangram is as comprehensive as Perl 6 Classes,Roles,etc)
04:40 gantrixx perl5 will be obsolete by the time this thing goes live, so the question is will Perl6 be the way to go or is it Python
04:41 stevan gantrixx: when is it going live?
04:41 stevan perl5 will be around for many years to come
04:41 stevan perl 5.005 is still on many prod machines
04:41 gantrixx the development will be done in like 5 years or so
04:41 gantrixx but it doesn't actually reach full maturity for 10 years
04:42 gantrixx at least that is what the "plan" says
04:42 gantrixx I worked on Iridium too and in 10 years when we delivered it, it was already obsolete
04:42 gantrixx so the plug could be pulled, hell this will span 2 more presidential administrations
04:42 stevan gantrixx: that is a rather long schedule
04:43 gantrixx so was putting a man on the moon
04:43 gantrixx it's a 10 year contract, what else can I say
04:44 stevan gantrixx: thats a good thing, I am just not used to anything that long
04:44 * stevan tends to work in months or weeks
04:44 gantrixx DoD stuff is like that
04:44 gantrixx they will spend 5 years testing it
04:44 stevan gantrixx: I won't ask you any details,.. top secret and all
04:44 gantrixx probably part of that contract is the initial maintainance phase
04:44 gantrixx then they usually bid out continued maintainance
04:45 gantrixx it does require a clearance
04:45 gantrixx and believe it or not the DoD is very accepting of open source technology
04:45 autrijus rehi.
04:46 stevan well if you prototyped in perl5, with an eye towards perl6 ...
04:46 stevan by the time you were ready Perl6 might be done
04:46 stevan morning autrijus :)
04:46 gantrixx I think they are tired of companies going out of business and being left with no support
04:46 autrijus I just read the backlog of yesterday :)
04:46 stevan gantrixx: it makes a lot of sense
04:46 autrijus it's curious how NathanJY happened to stop speaking altogether when I joined the channel :)
04:47 gantrixx I wish I could tell you some of the stuff that is out there and the old old unsupported technology it is built on
04:47 autrijus stevan: btw, great work on force_todo
04:47 stevan gantrixx: my father worked for the DoD, I am familiar with how messed up in can get :)
04:47 stevan autrijus: thanks :)
04:47 stevan I actually think it is speeding things up (or maybe it is my imagination)
04:47 autrijus that may very well be the case
04:47 gantrixx it can be a mess of inefficiency and red tape, but my experience is that that is the maintainance part
04:48 autrijus since there's no extra fileread/processing for each test
04:48 gantrixx the development part is pretty much a ball buster
04:48 stevan autrijus: yes, what bothered me was that the greatest penalty was for files which did not use it
04:49 stevan gantrixx: I can imagine, I recently read about FAA dev standards, crazy stuff
04:49 gantrixx oh now that is something I can talk about
04:49 gantrixx I've done some work for the FAA too
04:49 stevan autrijus: I am also in the process of removing the todo_* functions, and added a todo named param
04:49 stevan it should slim down Test.pm a bit more
04:49 autrijus stevan: yup, I saw that. great
04:49 autrijus I'm fixing parsefails left and right
04:50 stevan autrijus++
04:50 autrijus but the cxt/typ patch looks like a keeper
04:50 stevan good
04:50 mugwump is that the GADT-based parser change, autrijus ?
04:50 gantrixx there are strict requirements on mission critical parts on an airplane.  now adays much of "parts" are software, so the FAA requires that all code be hand reviewed by and outside group
04:50 stevan gantrixx: I have always been interested in embedded work, but my C skills are pretty sad
04:51 gantrixx so companies like Honeywell that write autopilots subcontract this obligation out a bunch of flunkies
04:51 autrijus mugwump: no actually... it's a separation of Cxt (context) and Type from String
04:51 autrijus mugwump: previously I got them all messed up. Juerd enlightened me
04:52 autrijus mugwump: one good thing from this is that we cleanly support junctive types
04:52 stevan junctive types... mmmmm
04:52 stevan I still need to find a place to use them,... maybe somewhere in hangman,  just to be gratuitous
04:53 mugwump junctive types, is that like 1`Oz|1`m|1`orange|etc ?
04:53 autrijus mugwump: no, more like
04:53 mugwump or just junctions
04:53 gantrixx nice talking to you guys
04:53 stevan sub foo (Str|Bool $bar)
04:53 autrijus sub foo (Int|Str $a)
04:53 gantrixx I have to go
04:53 autrijus ciao gantrixx :)
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04:54 autrijus sub phash (*@a) returns Array&Hash { ... }
04:54 stevan autrijus: I didnt get that haskell book, I decided to just order Algorithms instead
04:54 * autrijus shudders at the thought of phash
04:54 autrijus stevan: cool
04:55 autrijus stevan: hm, I'm seeing
04:55 * mugwump has a little moment stomaching that concept
04:55 autrijus $ ./pugs -MTest -e 'ok(1)'
04:55 autrijus ok 1 - pugs: cannot cast from VRef <Scalar::Const> to [Char]
04:55 autrijus fixing
04:56 stevan autrijus: it worked for me (I think I have the latest code too)
04:57 stevan hmm, even with this: pugs -I ext/Test/lib/  -e 'require Test; ok(1)'
04:57 autrijus that works for you?
04:57 stevan yes
04:58 autrijus weird.
04:58 stevan but you know,.. I may not have the latest build
04:58 stevan either way I have to go to sleep as I am starting to see double
04:58 autrijus that's fine... I'll figure it out
04:58 autrijus see you :)
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04:59 stevan be back in ~8 hours :)
05:06 bsb Is phash pronounced /fash/?  If so, I'll shudder too
05:06 autrijus bsb: it's pronounced "pseudohash"
05:07 bsb or p6opaque?
05:07 autrijus one of the gravest peril known to camelkind
05:07 bsb I get it now, Array&Hash
05:13 bsb If I make pugs segfault, how do it tell?
05:13 bsb s/how/who/
05:13 autrijus me
05:13 autrijus do you have a one-line test case?
05:13 bsb pugs> ?
05:13 bsb Segmentation fault
05:14 bsb is there and out of band way to send build info and context?
05:14 * mugwump points bsb at nopaste.snit.ch:8001
05:14 autrijus bsb: is this 6.2.0?
05:14 bsb yes
05:14 autrijus bsb: it's a known issue that has since been resolved
05:15 bsb great
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05:17 obra Hey glasser
05:18 Huskie Hi I need some help with some parsec code
05:19 bsb Another one: pugs> none(1).pick  # returns 1
05:20 autrijus bsb: do you have svn installed?
05:20 Huskie any lambda folks that could help me..thx
05:20 autrijus bsb: and may I make you a committer so you can add the failing test to t/junctions? :)
05:20 autrijus Huskie: yes?
05:21 Huskie how can i paste code to show u
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05:21 autrijus perlbot: nopaste
05:21 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
05:23 Huskie pasted to http://sial.org/pbot/9574
05:23 Huskie my ? is how i would call my eval function on the AST
05:24 bsb yeah to svn, I'm rebuilding.  Ok, I'll fix the test
05:25 autrijus bsb: are you a committer? if not, can you give me your email addr so I can send an invitation to you?
05:25 Khisanth given the rate of change is there actually a reason to use pugs releases instead of from SVN? :)
05:26 bsb bsb at bereft dot net
05:26 bsb What prodecure do I follow to ensure I'm not making things worse?  just make test?
05:27 Huskie autrijus, do you see my pasted code? The last line is what I would like to use but gives me an error
05:27 autrijus bsb: you can't possibly make things worse. but yes, "make test" works; after "make install" you can also simply run pugs on selected tests
05:27 autrijus Huskie: what's the error msg?
05:27 autrijus Khisanth: yes, the trunk may occasionally receive huge patches that kills the tree :)
05:28 Huskie Couldn't match the rigid variable `a' against `CT'
05:28 Huskie  `a' is bound by the type signature for `run'
05:29 Khisanth chainsaw patches
05:31 autrijus Huskie: your signature should not be
05:31 autrijus Parser a
05:31 autrijus it should be
05:31 autrijus Parser CT
05:31 autrijus Huskie: when in doubt, remove the signature and let GHC figure it out for you
05:32 autrijus bsb: invitation sent. welcome barod!
05:32 autrijus err, welcome aboard!
05:33 Huskie thanks a lot autrijus! It solves the problem.
05:33 Huskie and thanks for the inspiration with your work
05:34 autrijus no prob :)
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06:03 Huskie autrijus, any pointers on how to output code from an AST
06:04 autrijus Huskie: depends on your target code
06:04 autrijus target language, rather
06:05 Huskie I have an idl compiler that successfully builds an AST and i need to generate stub C code from it
06:05 Huskie for ex, interface { int func(int a); }
06:06 autrijus oh. you need to write an AST reduction module
06:06 autrijus look at src/Pugs/Compile/Parrot.hs for an examples
06:07 * autrijus needs to run. bbiab
06:08 Huskie cool.. looks like i have to understand PrettyPrint
06:13 bsb What should "(sub {3} | sub {2})()" produce in scalar context?
06:13 bsb Warnocked on p6l...
06:19 bsb .. warnocked, everywhere .. :(
06:22 autrijus bsb: put it in as a test.
06:23 bsb OK.  is( (sub {3} | sub {2})(), (3|2))   and fix if the answer changes
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06:23 autrijus not sure if you can compare junctions using is
06:23 autrijus probably flatten both sides using .values or something.
06:24 bsb yeah, that's what the other tests do
06:25 autrijus add yourself to AUTHORS too, if you're not
06:25 autrijus already there
06:25 autrijus * `(sub {3} | sub {2})()` implemented.
06:25 autrijus enjoy.
06:25 autrijus work &
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06:27 bsb implemented faster than the test, ++
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07:04 gaal kungfuftr: awake?
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07:16 ingy hola
07:17 * ingy just finished a flippin sweet test framework module
07:18 gaal hey ingy
07:18 gaal i'm cleaning up the makefile a bit
07:18 gaal i was bothered by how 'make smoke' tried building the targets again and again
07:18 gaal my findings:
07:18 ingy http://pause.perl.org/incom​ing/Test-Chunks-0.12.tar.gz
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07:19 gaal 1. the smoke target depended on util/run-smoke.pl, that looks bogus to me
07:19 gaal 2. that script always runs make explicitly :)
07:19 ingy ouch
07:19 ingy do you need help or something/
07:20 gaal 3. 'make optimized' and 'make unoptimized' are what the lovely manual call "double colon" rules, whcih basically means "always run this rule (even if its deps are fulfilled)".
07:20 gaal http://www.gnu.org/software/make/ma​nual/html_chapter/make_4.html#SEC50
07:20 gaal i love GNU docs. not.
07:21 gaal anyway, run-smoke should probably no longer be a script; it should be entirely a make target. rihgt?
07:21 ingy well I haven't looked at the Makefile in sometime
07:21 gaal question is, is there any reason for the double colons? i wonder who instated them.
07:21 ingy double colon rules are for when you want two or more rules with the same target
07:21 ingy foo :: this
07:22 ingy foo :: that
07:22 gaal they just waste time relinking, for me, because they also rerun the rule always.
07:22 ingy double colons are crucial
07:22 gaal well, they aren't used that way for the (un)?optimized targets.
07:22 ingy to be able to add on to rules genned by makemaker
07:23 gaal aha!
07:23 ingy :)
07:23 gaal i knew there was a reason i was asking you :)
07:23 ingy otherwise just use single colons for non MM targets
07:23 ingy =)
07:23 ingy I need to port Test::Chunks to Perl6
07:24 gaal okay, i'll finish fixing this up then.
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07:26 gaal other than environment, is there a way to pass an option to a rule? e.g. the smoker script used to 'make optimized' hardcodedly; i want it to choose the pugs target in a saner way.
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07:53 autrijus gaal: "make smoke TARGET=optimized" ?
07:53 gaal yes, that's what i ended up doing.
07:53 gaal i hope it's portable though :/
07:55 gaal actually i was doing something slightly different; because if you do the above you can't omit the TARGET setting (i think?)
07:57 gaal i added an ifdef in the $pugs target to check $(PUGS_OPTIMIZE), expecting 1, 0, or no def at all;  and build -O1, -O2, or nothing from it.
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08:14 gaal r2208 - i hope i didn't break anything :)
08:17 mj WinXP, r2207 - 159/4468 subtests failed, 96.44% okay.
08:27 autrijus gaal: you broken everything ;)
08:27 autrijus ifdef is a GNUism.
08:27 gaal that's too bad :)
08:27 autrijus please fix :)
08:28 gaal sorry, reverting.
08:28 autrijus no prob
08:30 gaal is there a preferred svn command for reverting a patch? or should i just svn up -r2207 and ci the old versions?
08:30 autrijus gah, that again
08:30 autrijus src/Pugs/Eval.hs:226:48: My brain just exploded.
08:30 autrijus gaal: you can apply the reverse change via svn merge
08:30 autrijus gaal: but just svn up -r2207, cp somewhere, svn up, mv somewhere back, ci
08:33 gaal done as r2209. now to figure out how to do this portably.
08:34 autrijus :)
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08:43 kungfuftr gaal: moo?
08:43 gaal moose!
08:43 kungfuftr lo
08:44 gaal i was doing some changes to the smoke target, but they turned out to depend on non-portable features of gnu make.
08:44 gaal that is,
08:44 gaal the way i did it depended etc.
08:44 kungfuftr ah
08:44 gaal i'm sure it can be done in an even uglier and more portable way.
08:45 kungfuftr $^O is horrible, but handy
08:45 gaal the thing is, make smoke relinks pugs needlessly.
08:45 gaal no, the unportability was in make itself.
08:45 gaal there is one improvement i'd like y'all to try though.
08:46 gaal can you edit your Makefile.PL and change "optimized :: " to "optimized :" ?
08:46 gaal (remove one colon)
08:46 gaal on my systems that alone is a big win :)
08:46 gaal ..after doing that rebuild the makefile and do make smoke.
08:47 gaal it shouldn't relink pugs if you alreadt had it built.
08:47 kungfuftr um... it'd have to be in a few hours time... have to do urgent work on search engine indexer
08:48 gaal k later.
08:55 pasteling "bsb" at 203.214.67.82 pasted "has_ghc_package using $ENV{GHC_PKG} || $ENV{GHC}" (20 lines, 710B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9581
08:55 bsb does that patch look reasonable?
08:56 bsb I'm trying to get started here, bear with me
08:57 autrijus I'd suggest to use
08:57 autrijus /\bghc(?=[^\\\/]*)/
08:58 autrijus in the
08:58 autrijus +        $ghc_pkg =~ s/^ghc/ghc-pkg/  # ghc-6.5 => ghc-pkg-6.5
08:58 autrijus line
08:58 autrijus err
08:58 autrijus /\bghc(?=[^\\\/]*$)/
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09:02 magnetic hi
09:04 autrijus yo magnetic
09:04 bsb ok. svn ci comes next, here we go
09:04 autrijus I wonder if I should spend any time replying to BrowserUK on perlmonks.
09:05 gaal autrijus, what thread?
09:05 autrijus gaal: http://www.perlmonks.org/?​parent=448319;node_id=3333
09:05 gaal he's quite the intelligent/thoughtful person; in my experience discussions with him were always worthwhile.
09:05 autrijus gaal: shuffling was one of the few cases that GHC performs much much better than perl.
09:06 gaal that doesn't mean he's always right :)
09:07 nothingmuch_ good evening
09:07 gaal now i'm interested in how to do this efficiently in haskell myself :)
09:08 gaal so i hope you do reply :)
09:11 autrijus maybe you can write it as an exercise :)
09:12 gaal :)
09:12 autrijus I replied.
09:12 gaal autrijus++
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09:19 nothingmuch_ autrijus: some guy came in here yesterday, demanding that we switch to C and scrap parrot
09:19 nothingmuch_ maybe we can meet in the middle?
09:19 nothingmuch_ we could implement with only the most monadic C like constructs, and everyone is happy
09:19 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
09:20 autrijus nothingmuch: the joke is no longer funny :)
09:20 nothingmuch beh!
09:21 nothingmuch so how is everyone?
09:21 castaway nm!
09:21 * gaal is listening to Abbey Road and pondering Autrijus' challenge.
09:21 nothingmuch si!
09:22 castaway Happy Friday!
09:22 nothingmuch happy friday to you too!
09:22 autrijus I'm just fine :) trying to get more infinite loops fixed
09:22 nothingmuch huraah
09:22 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
09:23 gaal at some level, obviously we can do in-place shuffle because we operate on perl types in place.
09:23 gaal so waht i need it sems is to wrap a haskell array in monadic.. thingie,
09:23 gaal and shuffle that.
09:23 gaal my problems are straightforward so far:
09:24 LCamel has quit IRC ("leaving")
09:24 gaal 1. how to wrap the arr^H^H^Hlist in a monadic thingie
09:24 integral an array of IORefs?
09:24 castaway :)
09:24 LCamel has joined #perl6
09:24 gaal 2. how to unwrap it afterwards
09:24 gaal 1.5. how to shuffle elements in it.
09:24 gaal integral: IORef is in the language? or is that a pugsish type?
09:24 LCamel has quit IRC (Client Quit)
09:25 integral it's in the language
09:25 LCamel has joined #perl6
09:25 integral GHC also has Data.Array.IO and Data.Array.ST
09:25 nothingmuch darcs get http://nothingmuch.woobling.or​g/Algorithm-Dependency-Objects
09:25 gaal trick is to do it w/o copying over the whole list.
09:26 gaal otherwise we didn't win much.
09:26 nothingmuch tests are not fully converted yet though
09:26 autrijus gaal: try to think it this way
09:26 nothingmuch but it may be useful for someone
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09:26 autrijus gaal: you read a bunch of Bugs wBufs via readBuf
09:26 autrijus gaal: you read a bunch of Bufs via readBuf
09:26 autrijus each is a Ptr
09:26 autrijus then you shuffle those Ptrs randomly
09:26 autrijus then you print them out.
09:27 autrijus the easiest way is perhaps to read the entire file into mem as a CString
09:27 gaal well, okay, but then i have to have had my data in a particular format, not a native @array.
09:28 autrijus gaal: uh, you are doing this in pugs?
09:28 autrijus not haskell as I thought?
09:28 gaal no, in haskell; i'm thinking of the comparison to perl that BrowserUk was making.
09:29 gaal though i guess in that case we can take the problem on his terms and indeed read the file *as* anything we like.
09:29 autrijus well, you can do the naive thing and see how slow it is.
09:29 autrijus use getLine repeatedly until eof
09:29 autrijus into IO [String]
09:29 autrijus err, I mean [IO String]
09:29 gaal of course it'll be slow, that was his point, no?
09:30 nothingmuch not IO [String]?
09:31 autrijus hrm.
09:31 autrijus http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/perfect-shuffle.txt
09:34 autrijus try merging it with the most naive
09:34 autrijus lines . getContents
09:34 autrijus I think it will be sufficiently fast.
09:34 autrijus just try it and see :)
09:34 mj has quit IRC ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
09:36 Juerd GOOD MORNING EVERYONE
09:36 Juerd :)
09:36 autrijus hey Juerd-san
09:37 Juerd Hello
09:37 Juerd What is -san?
09:37 castaway Good nearly-midday Juerd
09:37 autrijus Juerd: -san is like Mr.
09:37 Juerd autrijus: In what language?
09:38 Juerd In any case, hello autrijus-san :)
09:38 Juerd castaway: That is what is so good about this morning - it's already almost over.
09:39 kungfuftr (search indexing)-- # takes too long and too many resources
09:39 joepurl_ is now known as joepurl
09:40 castaway Juerd, not mine Im afraid, I'm running out of time, and I actually wanted to go home early..
09:41 Juerd I'm going to the office late
09:41 castaway lucky
09:41 Juerd That works much better than going home early
09:41 autrijus Juerd: in japanese :)
09:41 Juerd It's one of the benefits of not having an employer telling you the times to work
09:42 Juerd autrijus: I see
09:44 castaway I dunno, I prefer to relax when its over and done, and not before I get started .)
09:44 Juerd I prefer to jump right into bed after work ;)
09:45 castaway each their own :)
09:45 * castaway goes back to DB grumbling
09:45 Juerd My addiction won't let me though
09:45 * Juerd now has domed labels with his company logo
09:45 Juerd hurrah
09:45 Juerd Let the name branding begin.
09:46 Juerd They made the 1" x 1" ones 22mm x 22m, so those are useless.
09:46 Juerd But the rectangular ones are just the perfect size.
09:46 bsb Reading from L<S03/"Junctive operators"/"Junctions are specifically unordered">
09:47 castaway domed ?
09:47 Juerd castaway: A layer of plastic, as on computer case badges
09:48 Juerd It makes the labels look a little like Mac OS X aqua buttons :)
09:48 kungfuftr Juerd: do we get free ones?
09:48 bsb test:   for all(@foo) { %got{$_}; };  
09:48 Juerd kungfuftr: What would you do with labels that have my logo on it? :)
09:49 Juerd bsb: Do junctions in list context flatten, then?
09:49 kungfuftr Juerd: use them as rubber feet for my desktop unit
09:49 kungfuftr =0)
09:49 Juerd Didn't you mean to say for all(@foo).values { ... }?
09:49 Juerd kungfuftr: Heh, they were a bit too expensive to be used out of sight :)
09:49 Juerd But they'd work well as rubber anti-slip feet.
09:49 bsb Juerd: Don't think so
09:50 bsb I'm going from L<S03/"Junctive operators"/"Junctions are specifically unordered">
09:50 bsb Which seems to be saying something unusual
09:50 bsb Trying to check my reading of it
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09:52 gaal autrijus, the doc you linked to still doesn't do in-place ordering, does it? if you have a list in memory it won't shuffle it in place. if you have the data on disk, you read it into a tree and extract a shuffled list, which is a copy of the data - sure you could do a list of pointers to the data, but you stil have to allocate a new list.
09:52 gaal s/ordering/shuffling/
09:52 castaway oh, nifty
09:53 bsb It looks like `for all(1,2) { ... }` can run the block in parallel
09:53 Juerd bsb: Could be made to run the block in parallel.
09:53 autrijus gaal: uh, not sure what you mean.
09:53 autrijus gaal: sure it doesn't do inplace ordering
09:54 autrijus if you want inplace ordering, try IOArray :)
09:54 gaal think of it from the perl starting point. you have an @array, and you can do shiffle \@array.
09:54 autrijus IOArray of String
09:54 gaal looking up....
09:54 autrijus sure; if you have an IOArray, you can shuffle IORef IOArray
09:54 autrijus it's in Data.Array.IO
09:54 gaal Data.Graph.Inductive.Monad.IOArray ?
09:55 autrijus no, IOUArray in Data.Array.IO
09:55 autrijus IOU is extremely fast
09:55 bsb Juerd: Yes, so in the non-parallel case should `for all(1,2) { %got{$_} = 1; };` set %got{1}=1
09:55 autrijus because it's unboxed, so is quiv. with raw C code
09:55 gaal they should have named it EFArray then.
09:55 bsb ?
09:55 autrijus gaal: heh.
09:55 autrijus IO means it's in the IO monad; U means it's unboxed
09:55 autrijus but STUArray is probably enough for you.
09:55 autrijus STU may or may not be even faster
09:56 gaal that's for STUpendously fast (maybe) array, yes? (just checking)
09:57 autrijus you can use Data.Array.MArray as the interface code.
09:57 autrijus no... ST means it's in the ST monad.
09:57 autrijus ST monad maintains state, but does not do input/output.
09:58 Juerd bsb: I don't know how for $junc should behave.
09:59 bsb Anyone else?  for all(1,2) { %got{$_} = 1; };  
10:00 broquaint has joined #perl6
10:00 bsb It's not clear in s03
10:00 gaal I want... MArray (STUArray s) (Ptr a) (ST s)  ?
10:01 autrijus gaal: something like that
10:01 autrijus gaal: instead of Ptr, use CStringLen
10:02 autrijus I think a STUArray of CStringLen is probably fast enough.
10:02 autrijus you can read the entire file as a [CStringLen], convert it to a STUArray, sort it in place, then output it
10:03 autrijus s/sort/shuffle/
10:03 * castaway waves at broquaint.
10:03 autrijus still I don't think inplace shuffling is the best way to go
10:03 * broquaint waves back
10:03 autrijus I think just randomising the indexes is good enough.
10:03 gaal autrijus, that depends on what you're trying to do, of course
10:04 autrijus gaal: I thought we are optimising for speed
10:04 gaal yes--
10:04 Juerd bsb: +all(1,2) is 1
10:04 gaal but maybe the thingie receiving the shuffle needs an actual list and can't be changed?
10:05 Juerd Oh, no it's not.
10:05 gaal oops, i downmoosed one of my favorite bands. yes++ then.
10:06 autrijus gaal: hm?
10:06 gaal suppose you have some function you dontcontrol that
10:06 gaal wants an ordered list
10:07 gaal you can't change the api; you have data and you want to feed it to that function.
10:07 autrijus sure; so you just pass it to sort()
10:08 gaal sort? shuffle() you mean?
10:08 autrijus I'm confused
10:08 autrijus 18:07 < gaal> wants an ordered list
10:09 Juerd autrijus: Why with %hash{all(4,5,6)}, is all(4,5,6) a string?
10:10 autrijus Juerd: that is a bug.
10:10 autrijus write a test and commit it?
10:10 bsb Juerd: it seems like for handles Junctions specially in s03
10:10 gaal i meant it expects a list where the order matters, not that it expects sorted input
10:10 gaal brb
10:11 Juerd I don't know what it should do - stringify as ~all(...) does, or use the junction, or result in all(%hash{4,5,6})
10:11 autrijus Juerd: I'm of the opinion that it should autothread.
10:11 autrijus deref is just conceptually a method call
10:13 autrijus gaal: I think I'll speak with code :)
10:13 autrijus brb too
10:15 Juerd autrijus: What does autothread mean for a hash key? :)
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10:18 autrijus %hash.circumfix<{}>(all(4,5,6));
10:18 autrijus same as
10:18 autrijus all(%hash{4}, %hash{5}, %hash{6})
10:18 autrijus I'm pretty sure that's the way to go
10:18 Juerd Ok.
10:18 autrijus &
10:18 Juerd And how does assignment to a junction work?
10:19 Juerd Since %hash{$conjunc}++ is kind of likely to be used, I think.
10:19 Juerd Assign to each of the elements, and autothread around that again?
10:19 Juerd all(%hash{4} = 1, ...)
10:20 elmex has joined #perl6
10:22 broquaint So does %hash{4,5,6} (hash slice?) behave the same as %hash{all(4,5,6)} (junction of a hash slice?) ?
10:23 broquaint Not quite, I guess.
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10:38 nothingmuch hola theorbtwo
10:38 theorbtwo Hola, nothingmuch!
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10:39 nothingmuch what's new?
10:39 theorbtwo Not too much.
10:39 theorbtwo My eyesight is starting to go bad.
10:39 nothingmuch in which sense?
10:40 castaway too much looking at computer screens ..
10:40 kungfuftr has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
10:40 broquaint Get a projector?
10:41 nothingmuch projectors are hard to read from
10:41 theorbtwo My monitor looks very fuzzy.
10:41 castaway .. and find your glasses..
10:41 nothingmuch theorbtwo: LCD monitors help
10:41 * theorbtwo hmms.
10:41 nothingmuch very sharp
10:41 nothingmuch so you can lower brightness a bit
10:41 nothingmuch good contrast
10:41 theorbtwo Yes, but are an expense we presently cannot afford.
10:41 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
10:41 castaway nothingmuch: you donating one?
10:41 * nothingmuch has one on his el-cheapo laptop
10:42 nothingmuch and one on my desk at work
10:42 nothingmuch also, i'd like to note that IMHO health comes before see hacking, etc ;-)
10:42 theorbtwo I haven't been doing much SEE hacking, that's mostly Jess.
10:43 theorbtwo I should probably up my resolution and take breaks and all that jazz.
10:43 castaway (and thats stalling on lack of decent ways to test it atm)
10:43 theorbtwo Er, lower my resolution I mean.
10:43 nothingmuch breaks are important
10:43 * nothingmuch coughs
10:48 kungfuftr has joined #perl6
10:51 * castaway sighs and mutters "zealots" ..
10:53 theorbtwo BRB, restarting X.
10:53 theorbtwo has quit IRC ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
10:53 Odin- castaway: What sort?
10:54 bsb has left
10:54 castaway the annoying sort (daft convo about what "free" means, just because I quoted "db2 is free for personal use")
10:56 Odin- Ah.
10:56 Odin- The sort I hang around. ;)
10:57 castaway feel free to join #eamcs :)
10:59 * Odin- agrees that some people take it too far, but you can see where they're coming from, can't you? :>
11:00 castaway yes, and no.. to survive in this society, you need to learn to figure out people mean, without correcting them all the time.. (since 99% of the time, its actually quite clear)
11:00 castaway being picky wont fix anything :)
11:01 * castaway wonders if he's given up :)
11:01 Odin- True.
11:01 Odin- Which is what I meant by taking it too far. ;)
11:02 * castaway nods.
11:04 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
11:06 * castaway smooches theorbtwo
11:07 theorbtwo Miss me so soon?
11:08 castaway yup
11:08 * theorbtwo wonders what happened to his panel.
11:09 * castaway hasnt got it
11:11 castaway I paid for my muffin with the 19 5-cent pieces today, and he didnt even blink an eye, twas most disappointing..
11:11 castaway (didnt count them either, though :)
11:12 kungfuftr (binary)-- # not human readable
11:13 kungfuftr can perl6 make binary readable please?
11:13 kungfuftr =0)
11:14 theorbtwo pugs -e 'print 0b1001110'
11:14 theorbtwo Er, s/print/say/
11:15 kungfuftr theorbtwo: heh, having to debug binary search index files, very fun
11:16 kungfuftr anywhos
11:17 castaway sounds like great fun
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11:23 cognominal arf, I used reply to p6l in mutt and I forget to delete the In-Reply-To and change the subjet.  Not using aliases was false lazyness :(
11:23 cognominal sorry about that
11:26 Juerd cognominal: perl6-language@perl.org is not that much typing.
11:26 Juerd I don't use aliases.
11:27 dada has joined #perl6
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11:27 nothingmuch_ stevan: ping
11:31 kungfuftr ($shit,$voodoo) := ("perl6","php");
11:31 * kungfuftr hides
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11:32 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
11:32 kungfuftr bah, wrong usage
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11:32 kungfuftr Juerd: i'm incorrect in usage... right?
11:33 Juerd Yes, Perl 6 isn't shit.
11:33 castaway :)
11:33 Juerd Apart from that, I wouldn't know why the syntax would be wrong.
11:33 kungfuftr Juerd: swap melarky
11:33 Juerd As binding to a string literal makes sense, and probably makes it kind of like the "is const" thing.
11:34 kungfuftr $shit = "perl6"; $voodoo = "php"; ($shit,$voodoo) := ($voodoo,$shit); # more likely correct
11:35 kungfuftr again, could be wrong
11:36 kungfuftr Juerd: wrong?
11:36 chady is now known as chady_
11:36 nothingmuch_ ?
11:36 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
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11:38 Juerd kungfuftr: It'd be easier if you said what the hell you want it to do.
11:38 wolverian language!
11:38 kungfuftr Juerd: it's to do with swapping the names of the variables without the copying... end result... $voodoo is perl6 and $shit is php
11:38 theorbtwo Anglais, por favor.
11:39 kungfuftr theorbtwo: voulez-vous couchez avec ta mere, ce soir?
11:39 theorbtwo .oO(Huh?)
11:40 castaway say no :)
11:40 theorbtwo No.
11:41 castaway I *think* "Do you want to have sexs with my mother, this evening"
11:42 kungfuftr castaway: "will you sleep with your mother this evening?"
11:42 castaway oh "your" .. even worse ;)
11:42 kungfuftr =0)
11:42 castaway ah well, right answer anyways..
11:43 cognominal kungfuftr: either   "voulez-vous coucher avec votre mère" or  "veux-tu coucher avec ta mère?"
11:43 cognominal you can't mix "vous" et "ta"
11:43 castaway good point cognominal
11:44 castaway ,)
11:44 castaway (language discussions on #gaia, btw :)
11:48 kungfuftr cognominal: you can mix them, since you might be talking to more than one person
11:48 kungfuftr etc.
11:48 kungfuftr hhhmmm... though
11:48 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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11:51 cognominal that would be "voulez-vous coucher avec votre mère"  then :)
11:52 cognominal btw you are welcome on grou.ch #perlfr if you want to speak French. There is  a #perlfr on freenode, but they are lamers
11:53 nothingmuch stevan: gong
11:53 * nothingmuch wishes he'd wake up
11:53 * nothingmuch tries to speak french occasionally
11:54 nothingmuch i started learning twice
11:54 nothingmuch and forgot nearly all twice
11:54 nothingmuch =(
11:56 * kungfuftr speaks far better french if he spends a day or so in paris, etc.
11:58 cognominal if you do come to visit the mongueurs...
11:59 cognominal or come to Marseille for the French Perl Workshop
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12:02 Juerd kungfuftr: ($a, $b) := ($b, $a) swaps without copying.
12:02 Juerd kungfuftr: When there's no repetetion on the RHS, you can't speak of swapping.
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12:09 nothingmuch kungfuftr: what is your opinion on that test model doc?
12:11 PerlJam has joined #perl6
12:12 kungfuftr nothingmuch: which one
12:13 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling​.org/test_result_model.pod
12:13 kungfuftr Juerd: ah ha! so $voodoo would be "perl6"
12:18 kungfuftr nothingmuch: not bad, though there should be no computated data within the model.
12:19 theorbtwo Hm?
12:19 theorbtwo How do you figure / why not?
12:19 * kungfuftr & # lunch!
12:20 kungfuftr theorbtwo: ie: ratio... just give total, passed, failed, etc.... and to the computation elsewhere... would allow for weighting, etc.
12:21 theorbtwo If you want to compute it differently, you can compute yourself.
12:22 nothingmuch i've thought about that long and hard
12:22 nothingmuch and thought that perhaps it is a good idea
12:22 nothingmuch because the model must appear inconsistent in a simple way
12:22 nothingmuch if it is inconsistent
12:22 nothingmuch one could argue that a protocol with missing plan members has such cases which are failed
12:22 theorbtwo If you don't, the default is easy to use and good for most uses.
12:22 nothingmuch and a protocol could stub that
12:22 nothingmuch i think that it's a simple concept
12:22 nothingmuch and could be centralized into the model
12:22 nothingmuch and the model would have the 'default' interface, which has stubs
12:22 nothingmuch and perhaps a purer base class
12:22 nothingmuch or a purer set of methods
12:22 nothingmuch that don't stub
12:22 nothingmuch but i think stubbing is very important for writing good display tools easily
12:22 theorbtwo So do I.
12:22 nothingmuch kungfuftr: you don't have to use ratio
12:22 nothingmuch it's just that even Test::Harness gets it wrong some times
12:23 nothingmuch these computations should be standardized
12:23 nothingmuch and be put in one place
12:23 nothingmuch and should be available by default
12:23 theorbtwo There's nothing wrong with having both an ->expected and ->unexpected method, which are defined to be the negation of each-other.  There's a reason perl has both if and unless.
12:25 nothingmuch ... and that reason is readabilty
12:25 nothingmuch it's easier to read something that sounds more like english
12:25 nothingmuch and there's a reason why people make fun of double negatives in english
12:25 nothingmuch OTOH english has many logical ambiguities
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12:33 kungfuftr nothingmuch: http://pugs.kwiki.org/?TestModel *shrug*
12:34 nothingmuch sort of
12:35 nothingmuch why are you against computations, btw?
12:35 kungfuftr nothingmuch: blame mugwump... he enstilled a sense of pure data modelling into me
12:35 nothingmuch hmm
12:36 nothingmuch normally I agree
12:36 nothingmuch and I think that a pure data model *should* be accessible
12:36 nothingmuch but i think that normally it shouldn't be the case
12:36 kungfuftr nothingmuch: a method to do it would be nice, but the actual data be pure?
12:36 nothingmuch yes, the underlying data is pure
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12:36 kungfuftr ah... k
12:36 nothingmuch Test::Model isa Test::Model::Pure
12:37 nothingmuch and Test::Model has data query methods that append or mark sub objects
12:37 nothingmuch after taking them from the Test::Model::Pure superclass
12:37 kungfuftr yar, sounds good... encapsulation++
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13:27 autrijus rehi
13:27 Limbic_Region lo
13:27 autrijus so I wasted some time writing shuffle.hs ;)
13:28 Limbic_Region autrijus - the last smoke Corion did showed 178 or so tests still failing - any idea what the number is now?
13:28 Limbic_Region Additionally, did the refactor of context parsing raise any bizarre edge cases of non-dwymery?
13:28 autrijus Limbic_Region: something around that.
13:29 autrijus Limbic_Region: yes, lots and lots of.
13:29 Limbic_Region those cases reported to p6.l ?
13:30 clkao autrijus: want to help make win32 build for beta2?
13:30 theorbtwo Allo, autrijus!
13:30 * Limbic_Region was just hoping to get a summary
13:31 autrijus Limbic_Region: uh no, so far it's been cleared up by lwall and juerd
13:31 autrijus so, nothing language-shaking per se.
13:31 autrijus although I did find out some weird cases with := semantics. still thinking about it
13:32 theorbtwo <autrijus> That doesn't look right.  <larry> But it is!
13:32 autrijus :D
13:32 Limbic_Region right - what I meant by cases of non-dwymery were rules that made sense at first and second glances but given situation X made no sense at all
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13:34 kungfuftr autrijus: that operators/binding.t ?
13:35 autrijus kungfuftr: yeah, it fails, I'm investigating
13:35 kungfuftr autrijus: proabably the ($x, $y) := ($y, $x) i added
13:37 Juerd http://juerd.nl/filesize.png  # I sometimes *love* KDE
13:38 Juerd (Not going to show you my pr0n archive, but I know now exactly which parts to clean up (hm, dubious))
13:39 theorbtwo Autrijus, I'm starting to look at a more perlish (IE return whatever you want) eval_haskell, and I'm not sure how to implement it, and I'm also not sure I understand your Evallable design from http://meme.b9.com/cview.html?c​hannel=haskell&amp;date=050416.
13:40 broquaint has joined #perl6
13:41 theorbtwo I was looking at possibly a largish valFromDynamic function, that takes a Dynamic (which is required to be a Typeable already) and makes it into a Val.
13:41 stevan changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (214/4453, r2198) Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
13:41 theorbtwo changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (214/4453, r2198), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
13:42 stevan nothingmuch: BANG!!
13:42 autrijus theorbtwo: that looks promising enough
13:43 autrijus theorbtwo: the Evalable design is orthogonal
13:43 autrijus it's designed to make
13:43 autrijus eval_haskell "'x'"
13:43 autrijus eval_haskell "return 'x'"
13:43 autrijus both work.
13:43 autrijus by essentially adding the proper amount of lifting
13:44 theorbtwo Right.  You could do that in valFromDynamic -- one is a Char, the other is an IO Char.
13:44 theorbtwo If you've got an IO a, then unsafePerformIO it, and get an a, and then do the normal thing on that.
13:44 theorbtwo (Well, from a Dynamic IO a to a Dynamic a, hopefully.)
13:45 theorbtwo (This assumes, of course, that I can figure out how to do that... I think it's dynApp, but I'm not sure, and dynApp seems to be undocumented.)
13:45 autrijus uh, valFromDynamic should probably not unsafePerformIO it.
13:46 autrijus valFromDynamic :: Dynamic -> Eval Val
13:46 theorbtwo Oh, that also makes a lot of sense.
13:46 autrijus you can do typecasing based on typeOf.
13:47 theorbtwo Righ.
13:47 theorbtwo Right.
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14:15 autrijus perl5 shuffle:
14:15 autrijus 4.619u 1.010s 0:05.89 95.4%     10+79736k 0+0io 0pf+0w
14:15 autrijus GHC shuffle:
14:15 autrijus 3.007u 0.038s 0:03.10 97.7%     323+359k 0+0io 0pf+0w
14:15 * autrijus proceeds to reply to BrowserUK
14:19 Juerd And pure perl 6 shuffle? :)
14:20 autrijus I don't know :)
14:20 autrijus maybe we should compile it to parrot :)
14:20 autrijus it may be even faster.
14:21 Juerd What do you think of Bool +$read|r to allow both the name 'read' and the name 'r'?
14:21 Juerd :read and :r
14:21 Juerd Same thing.
14:21 Juerd It doesn't play nice with precedence in the signature, but normal precedence plays no role there anyway.
14:22 autrijus I think it's a weird idea.
14:22 Limbic_Region apparently gcc 4.0 has a brand new optimizer - wonder if that would affect the Parrot results *grin*
14:22 autrijus Bool +$read|$r  maybe?
14:22 autrijus I know!
14:22 Juerd autrijus: I had that before, and then I didn't like the redundant $ :)
14:22 Juerd But I agree that it looks much more natural
14:22 autrijus hm
14:22 autrijus what happens if the user gives both
14:23 Juerd Same thing as when the same name was used twice.
14:23 Juerd :read :read
14:23 Juerd :read :r
14:23 Juerd :r :read
14:23 autrijus k.
14:23 Juerd All exactly the same thing
14:23 autrijus I think the extra sigil is a win.
14:23 Juerd (And I don't know what happens then :P)
14:24 Juerd autrijus: The problem with it is that aesthetically (because of precedence), I want to repeat the + too there
14:24 Juerd And that leaves you with +$read|+$r, which is a lot of typing and linenoise
14:24 Juerd And begs for +$read|?$r, which is impossible to work with :)
14:24 Juerd But perhaps it's just my sense for aesthetics that needs adjustment
14:25 autrijus can you have
14:25 autrijus +$read|@r
14:25 autrijus ?
14:31 Juerd I'd have no idea how to interpret that
14:31 Juerd This is a good reason to either not repeat the sigil, or to enforce that it is the same
14:32 Juerd s:2nd/ to//
14:34 autrijus gaal: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=450426
14:41 Limbic_Region print rand 10, $/ for 1..1_000_000; # succinent
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14:44 autrijus yeah, and I could've used perl -wle or something :)
14:45 autrijus it's a bit of stretch to call the haskell version as a "port" though.
14:46 * Limbic_Region just realized who he was suggesting a shorter version too
14:46 autrijus because instead of sorting string refs, it sorts offsets
14:46 * Limbic_Region hangs his head since his golf'ing handicap is astronomical
14:46 rgs has left "Pining for the Fjords"
14:46 autrijus but problem is perl5 doesn't even have that option; substr() into a multi-megabyte string is not a win
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14:57 theorbtwo Hometime already, Corion?
14:58 theorbtwo Oh, I guess it is.
14:58 * theorbtwo doesn't have a clock on his screen at present.
14:59 * castaway sighs
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15:01 * Corion waves from home.
15:10 Corion Another bad job well done. Cpansmoking can be such fon
15:10 Corion s!fon!fun!
15:11 Corion pugs.exe: cannot cast from VList [] to Handle -- I think I remember that bug ... It happens in t/pugsrun/02-dash-n.t and 03*.t - they both try to read from =<>
15:13 autrijus indeed. fixing
15:13 autrijus fixed
15:14 autrijus ok, infinite loop gone.
15:15 autrijus may I request another round of smoke?
15:15 autrijus (r2217)
15:16 Corion Just smoked
15:16 Corion r2216 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
15:17 autrijus cool. then no need to
15:17 Corion (and no infinite loop there, although abs.t still looks weird :) )
15:21 autrijus ok. I think Pair wants to be Pair objects.
15:21 autrijus instead of VPair.
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15:29 autrijus sadly I need to crash now. gotta wake up real early tomorrow. :/
15:30 autrijus aiming for a weekend release, then
15:30 * autrijus waves &
15:30 autrijus has quit IRC ("leaving")
15:31 autrijus has joined #perl6
15:31 Corion good night then :)
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15:37 Corion Yay. async() and system() now work together it seems!
15:37 Corion So there is little preventing me from writing a small HTTP::Proxy and testing it via subprocesses. Except that I don't have time this weekend :)
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15:44 Corion nothingmuch: BTW, if a test crashes, it would be nice to have the remaining (planned) tests not as plain fails but somehow as different fails. A darker red, for example :)
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16:02 nothingmuch Corion: that can be done
16:02 nothingmuch want to patch? it's a simple fix
16:02 Corion nothingmuch: No hurry - just an idea :)
16:02 nothingmuch i just can't do it right now
16:03 nothingmuch what needs to be done to the model, to do it cleanly:
16:03 Corion nothingmuch: np - I won't be at home for the next few hours either
16:03 nothingmuch grep -r for 'stub'
16:03 nothingmuch find the code that generates them
16:03 nothingmuch and add a property
16:03 Corion I only wanted to dump the idea before I lose it again ;)
16:03 nothingmuch then make a proper method for it
16:03 nothingmuch and a css class for the display
16:03 nothingmuch and add knowlege about the class to Test::TAP::Model::Subtest::Visual
16:03 nothingmuch okay
16:04 Corion bbl
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16:36 kungfuftr http://kungfuftr.com/pugs-smoke.html - back fer now
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16:53 cognominal Larry has answered my mail about functional extension to Perl6. I don't get these two lines about already supported/speced  features
16:53 cognominal autogenerating arrays
16:53 cognominal    [] pattern matching arguments
16:53 chady_ has joined #perl6
16:53 cognominal is the first, only our classic map and grep?
16:54 cognominal where is the second specced?
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17:23 nothingmuch autogenerating arrays: anything infinite, i think
17:23 nothingmuch and much more flexibly: gather { take }
17:23 nothingmuch i think that it will pause when taking
17:23 nothingmuch and then when a new element is needed it continues after the take()
17:23 nothingmuch and reiterates the gather block
17:24 nothingmuch or the nested loops inside it, more accurately
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17:54 nothingmuch anyone here a getopt guru?
17:54 nothingmuch i need some advice
18:02 cognominal I still don't get what he means by  "[] pattern matching arguments"
18:08 crysflame context?
18:09 PerlJam cognominal: sub foo ([$head,@tail], $second_arg) { ... }
18:09 PerlJam cognominal: foo would be called as foo(@array,$blah);
18:09 PerlJam nothingmuch: I'm not a guru but I can play one on IRC.  :-)  What advice do you need?
18:10 ingy all I know is that every programmer writes their own version of getopt at some point
18:11 PerlJam ingy: indeed. That was one of the first things I wrote in python when learning the language.
18:16 cognominal Perl_jam: thx, this is indeed a form of pattern matching
18:16 cognominal boy, I will love Perl6
18:18 PerlJam cognominal: You don't love it now?  ;)
18:20 * PerlJam notes that perl5 was released 2 years before it was stable enough to be generally useful.  (give or take)  I imagine that perl6 will be the same.
18:20 nothingmuch sorry, back
18:20 nothingmuch sister was exploiting my licensed status
18:21 nothingmuch PerlJam: Is there a fun module that lets me convert args to something Params::Validate might like to eat?
18:21 nothingmuch basically, i want @ARGV to be treated as a positional + flag + named param list
18:21 nothingmuch and I want to name positionals and flags myself
18:21 nothingmuch and be able to say $config->field();
18:21 nothingmuch and get the CLI value
18:22 castaway GetOpt::Long ?
18:22 PerlJam nothingmuch: Getopt::Declare perhaps?  (I don't really know, but look on CPAN in the Getopt:: namespace)
18:22 nothingmuch castaway: i am sort of hoping to do it without writing code
18:22 nothingmuch and guessed someone might have something for the job
18:22 castaway pigs may fly ;)
18:22 nothingmuch castaway: tsk tsk
18:22 nothingmuch reminds me of yet another discordian quote:
18:22 PerlJam castaway: hey, that's not an unreasonable expectation.  Almost everytime I think to do something cool, I find that someone has already done it.
18:23 nothingmuch "Eagles may soar, but cows don't get sucked into jet engines"
18:23 * nothingmuch wonders what shapr is doing instead of appreciating my references
18:23 * nothingmuch feels guilty all of a sudden
18:24 nothingmuch i just realized that I make about 300-400 queries a day on search.cpan.org
18:24 nothingmuch i should donate something
18:24 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/~abw/AppCo​nfig-1.56/lib/AppConfig/Getopt.pm <-- hmm
18:27 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
18:27 * nothingmuch thinks the only sort of sportish thing he can do better than others, aside from throwing knives, is running up the stairs with coffee
18:27 nothingmuch for some reason it never ever spills
18:29 crysflame nothing: fwiw, google site:search.cpan.org works
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18:31 nothingmuch crysflame: usally i type http://search.cpan.org/perldoc?Some::Module
18:31 nothingmuch i do this a lot for modules I don't have installed
18:32 nothingmuch or for modules with long doc pages
18:32 nothingmuch where the terminal doesn't give me enough perspective
18:32 nothingmuch (no scroll bars)
18:41 ingy nothingmuch: have you seen my new baby, Test::Chunks?
18:41 nothingmuch nope
18:41 * ingy is a proud mother
18:42 nothingmuch has left
18:42 * castaway wonders whether it needs Spiffy/Spoon/IO::All ,)
18:42 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
18:42 nothingmuch hmm... looks very useful
18:42 iblechbot has joined #perl6
18:43 ingy castaway: :p
18:43 nothingmuch ingy: you're good at speccing things
18:43 castaway SCNR ;)
18:43 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling​.org/test_result_model.pod
18:43 ingy nothingmuch: how so
18:43 nothingmuch the model isa Test::Results::Model::Pure
18:43 nothingmuch ingy: YAML is pretty good, kwid is pretty good
18:44 nothingmuch Kwiki is fun to work with (except in hebrew, that was a pain)
18:44 ingy I didn't write the YAML spec
18:44 nothingmuch (but then again, CamelCase is not possible in hebrew)
18:44 * nothingmuch thought ingy was part of the spec
18:44 nothingmuch anyway, so kwid is pretty good
18:44 nothingmuch and that's it
18:44 ingy I helped
18:44 nothingmuch but despited the fact that you suck at speccing
18:44 ingy but Oren did most of it
18:44 nothingmuch i'd like you to look at that pod ;-)
18:45 nothingmuch s/despited/despite/;
18:45 ingy ok
18:46 nothingmuch is the 'all' target the default for makefiles?
18:46 nothingmuch i.e., is that what's implied when you run make with no args?
18:46 castaway think so
18:46 ingy nothingmuch: we should talk about this at the hackathon
18:47 nothingmuch ingy: hackathon is far away
18:47 nothingmuch gaal wants to do Test::Harness in p6
18:47 nothingmuch i said it should be split up
18:47 ingy it fits well with my sidelined babeltest framework
18:47 nothingmuch because IMHO Test::Harness sucks for reusability
18:47 nothingmuch babeltest?
18:47 ingy it is a descendant of Ward Cunningham's fit testing
18:48 ingy a defined object model would be really useful
18:48 ingy a well defined one
18:48 ingy babeltest has an adhoc object model
18:48 TheBigBear has joined #perl6
18:48 ingy but it is a object tree based testing system
18:49 nothingmuch what is FIT?
18:49 ingy have you ever looked at FIT?
18:49 nothingmuch no
18:49 ingy guess not
18:49 nothingmuch 10 word limit ;-)
18:49 ingy it is very cool
18:49 nothingmuch boy, you're wasteful
18:49 ingy you should check it out
18:50 ingy I have a Test::Fit on CPAN
18:50 ingy ?
18:50 nothingmuch 40% of what FIT is by that def is 'very cool'
18:50 nothingmuch if you consider the 10 word limit
18:50 ingy I'm not considering it though :P
18:51 ingy I never  really finished Test::FIT
18:51 nothingmuch yeah yeah
18:51 nothingmuch http://fit.c2.com/ <-- good enough start?
18:51 ingy FIT is cross language testing framework
18:51 ingy yes
18:51 ingy you can spec a project with FIT and implement in any language
18:52 nothingmuch hmm
18:52 nothingmuch is it sort of like a test plan
18:52 nothingmuch and the second argument to is()?
18:52 ingy Babeltest is my fork of it
18:52 ingy you should read about it
18:52 ingy before comparing it to Test::Harness
18:52 nothingmuch okay
18:52 nothingmuch i'll do that
18:53 ingy I actually made Test::Fit output Test::Harness output
18:53 nothingmuch my grand scheme is that Test::Result::Model is generic enough to be useful
18:53 nothingmuch so that most test protocols can fit into it
18:53 nothingmuch and those that can't should easily be modded
18:53 ingy it should be programming lanuage independent
18:53 nothingmuch or are just too dumb, and that's their problem
18:53 nothingmuch it is
18:53 ingy good
18:53 nothingmuch i'm already using Test::TAP::Model for a C++ framework
18:53 nothingmuch with modified TAP output
18:54 nothingmuch so the Test::Result::Model should have an interface through which it can be constructed easily
18:54 nothingmuch it should know to subscribe to a standard event parser interface
18:54 nothingmuch and then you have Test::TAP::Parser
18:54 nothingmuch so you smudge the two together
18:55 nothingmuch you can also subscribe to Test::TAP::Parser if you want to display running results, for example
18:55 nothingmuch but the point is that after words, for aggregated display
18:55 nothingmuch you have a very stable
18:55 nothingmuch very standardized object model
18:55 nothingmuch that you can feed in a cross language way to display tools
18:55 nothingmuch if it's in p6 then theoretically through parrot this is shared
18:55 ingy I haven't looked at TAP yet
18:55 nothingmuch so reporting tools in ruby could use it
18:56 ingy do you think  test chunks could benefit from TAP integration?
18:56 nothingmuch tap is nice
18:56 nothingmuch but i think a bit too flat
18:56 nothingmuch base it on Test::Builder
18:56 ingy base what?
18:57 ingy Test::Chunks
18:57 nothingmuch yup
18:57 ingy it is already built over Test::More, so yeah
18:57 cognominal I try to compile hs-plugins and I get : ./Plugins/ParsePkgConfCabal.hs:280:49: Not in scope: `hugsOptions'
18:57 nothingmuch ah, okay
18:57 nothingmuch so it is integrated
18:57 ingy you can use it just like test more
18:58 ingy I did one cool trick... it adds strict and warnings to your test files automatically
18:58 ingy stole that from Spiffy
18:58 nothingmuch source filters? aaaah!
18:59 ingy yeah, why not. just forget about it
18:59 ingy it is truly useful
19:00 nothingmuch =)
19:00 ingy the test suite for Test::Chunks is mighty clean
19:00 nothingmuch does it use Test::Chunks?
19:00 ingy but I got bit by not using strict
19:01 theorbtwo cognominal: Try asking in #haskell?
19:01 ingy anyway a test model sounds lovely
19:01 ingy let me know when it gets more formal
19:01 nothingmuch i wish I had more time to code it
19:01 nothingmuch but Test::TAP::Model is a good start
19:02 nothingmuch what I would like to do is purify it a little
19:02 ingy I'll study that
19:02 nothingmuch reimplement Test::Harness::Straps so that it's not so icky to work with
19:02 Juerd http://www.guardian.co.uk/onlin​e/news/0,12597,1465973,00.html
19:02 Juerd This means that in reality, we're even much smarter!
19:02 nothingmuch make Test::TAP::Model not be isa Test::Harness::Straps just because that saved me some coding
19:02 crysflame nothingmuch: hmm, nice.
19:02 Juerd (Weird how it can differ 10 "iq points", as IQs are normally-distributed quotients...)
19:03 * nothingmuch cannot mentally perform on marijuana
19:03 nothingmuch i slow down
19:03 nothingmuch to a point where I'm too lazy to formulate sentances
19:04 ingy my idea for babeltest.org was to have a wiki where anyone can add tests to define a project. and then implementors can use the test specs against their project in their language of choice. and the community could always see what tests pass.
19:04 cognominal Juerd: every month, psys find a new addiction to enlarge their line of business
19:04 ingy which is what fit really should have been
19:05 ingy but ward is concentrated on business not open source
19:05 nothingmuch ingy: this reminds me of wheat
19:05 ingy and then ward went to work for M$ and fell off the planet
19:06 ingy wheat?
19:06 crysflame ingy: whoah!
19:06 crysflame ingy++ # community testing wiki
19:06 nothingmuch and how do you do complex tests?
19:06 ingy make them simpler ;)
19:06 nothingmuch http://www.wheatfarm.org/
19:06 nothingmuch ingy: simpler might mean rewriting
19:07 nothingmuch i think a test with loops is better than a test that is completely imperative
19:07 nothingmuch if the loops can save some writing
19:07 nothingmuch i normally write tests with 0 control flow
19:07 nothingmuch so that they are always the same
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19:10 ingy nothingmuch: what do you think of this style of test? http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/eO2TDJ84.html
19:10 ingy Juerd: are you behind http://www.rafb.net/paste/ ?
19:11 nothingmuch why is the second run where it is?
19:11 nothingmuch i don't really understand
19:11 mauke no, unless Juerd is really Jacob Cohen
19:11 ingy the 2nd run?
19:12 nothingmuch after __END__ there is the data
19:12 nothingmuch oh
19:12 nothingmuch it's just text
19:12 nothingmuch silly me
19:12 ingy just a piece of text
19:12 ingy happen to be lying around ;)
19:12 nothingmuch so how does $chunk->(decoded|encoded) know to compare?
19:13 nothingmuch i like the fact that you don't "intelligently guess" the plan but leave it for the user
19:13 ingy the 'encoded' chunks are given a base64 filter
19:13 nothingmuch lets backtrack
19:13 ingy ok
19:13 nothingmuch the test is supposed to test a base64 decoder?
19:14 ingy the test is testing that the base64 filter feature of Test::Chunks works properly
19:14 nothingmuch or is base64 encoding an integral part of Test::Chunks
19:14 nothingmuch ah
19:14 nothingmuch pretty
19:14 ingy you can specify any number of filters on a test chunk
19:14 ingy normalize and trim are the defaults
19:15 castaway Juerd is the tnx.nl one
19:15 ingy er, norm and trim I think
19:15 nothingmuch ingy: sounds very useful
19:15 ingy you can turn it off with
19:15 nothingmuch ingy++
19:15 ingy --- foo -norm base64 whatever
19:16 ingy you can concentrate on one test with the pseudochunk
19:16 ingy --- ONLY
19:16 ingy that's why I base my plan on chunks
19:16 nothingmuch are 'decoded' and 'encoded' arbitrary names?
19:16 ingy yes
19:17 ingy and they become methods of the Test::Chunk object
19:17 nothingmuch Algorithm::Dependency's test suite could use this mapping
19:17 nothingmuch want to have a go at translating? ;-)
19:17 nothingmuch it has a big matrix every once in a while
19:17 nothingmuch and i'm too lazy to finish the suite for Algorithm::Dependency::Objects
19:17 nothingmuch (http://nothingmuch.woobling.org​/Algorithm-Dependency-Objects)
19:19 Juerd ingy: No, I have nothing to do with rafb.net
19:19 ingy oh ok. it looked somewhat like a pastebot you used I thought...
19:20 castaway http://tnx.nl/scribble.plp ?
19:20 ingy I found it by typing 'nopaste' in the firefox location area
19:20 castaway bookmarks++
19:20 Juerd ingy: I own the domain pastebot.org
19:20 Juerd ingy: But didn't create pastebot
19:20 Juerd And don't maintain the pastebot linked to that domain.
19:20 castaway ah
19:21 Juerd tnx.nl is also mine
19:21 Juerd Which I still like a lot for its lack of length.
19:21 ingy I love typing free text as urls in firefox. it will usually dwim
19:21 Juerd Oh, I completely forgot I was going to add [AES]\d\d shortcuts.
19:21 Juerd ingy: Google loves you.
19:21 Juerd For Great Statistics
19:22 ingy rafb's paster lacks a couple polishing features though
19:22 ingy at least someone loves me
19:22 theorbtwo (Crack for Statisticians!)
19:26 cognominal for my slides I want colorized perl6. I am thinking of using vim for that to generate colorized html.
19:27 cognominal do you know the correct invocation from a script? or a better way?
19:29 Juerd My experience is that vim's highlighting sucks for Perl 6.
19:31 castaway highlighting perl6 sounds like a nightmare ;)
19:31 cognominal this is not for every day use, just for generating a few slides. I will not use exotic quoting...
19:32 Juerd cognominal: It fails for more trivial stuff than that too.
19:32 Juerd You'll see
19:32 cognominal what I see so far is good enough
19:32 Juerd http://tnx.nl/S03 now works, btw
19:32 castaway cool
19:32 cognominal I just want to automate the generation of slides
19:33 Juerd /bind meta-- insert_text http://tnx.nl/
19:33 Juerd in irssi
19:33 PerlJam castaway: hilighting perl6 will be *easy* if we have the perl6 rule engine and the grammar at our disposal.
19:33 Juerd then it's alt+- S03
19:33 castaway hmm?
19:33 castaway where does that insert what to?
19:34 Juerd castaway: It makes alt+- a shortcut for typing http://tnx.nl/
19:34 Juerd http://tnx.nl/http://tnx.nl/http://tnx.nl/​http://tnx.nl/http://tnx.nl/http://tnx.nl/ :)
19:34 castaway ah, I see
19:34 Juerd So if I want to point someone to perlop, I just type alt+- perlop, resulting in http://tnx.nl/perlop
19:34 castaway nifty
19:34 Juerd Or for suffering from buffering, http://tnx.nl/sfb
19:34 cognominal I just want a quick fix, not a general solution...
19:35 Juerd Or when someone has problems with understanding Perl 6 operators and rules, http://tnx.nl/S03,S05
19:35 Juerd Etcetera :)
19:35 castaway PerlJam: build those into elisp ;)
19:35 castaway sorry cog, wrong $EDITOR
19:35 PerlJam castaway: sure  ... as soon as I have a parrot backend to elisp.
19:36 cognominal castaway, I would not mind an emacs solution
19:36 * castaway grins at cognominal
19:36 castaway I dont have one handy tho, sorry
19:37 cognominal btw. are the synopsis on dev.perl.org up to date? or should are I trust the Perl6::Bible instead?
19:37 ingy the bible is up to date
19:37 PerlJam cognominal: the synopses are the most up-to-date official docs by the cabal
19:37 ingy 0.15
19:38 cognominal PerlJam: yes, but are the synopsis online on dev.perl.org up to date?
19:38 obra c1;dev.perl.org should be current as of last night.
19:38 obra and that should always be true.
19:38 PerlJam ingy: is the bible generated from the svn repo?
19:39 obra dev.perl.org pulls nightly from the canonical svn repo
19:39 cognominal so why the last modified so out of date?
19:39 ingy PerlJam: yes
19:39 PerlJam ingy: excellent.
19:39 cognominal  Last Modified: 9 Dec 2004
19:39 cognominal  Number: 5
19:39 TheBigBear has quit IRC (Client Quit)
19:40 cognominal that convey the wrong message
19:40 obra cognominal: when was syn5 last updated?
19:40 BigBear has joined #perl6
19:41 cognominal obra: I don't know. my understanding was that it was recently updated
19:42 castaway "21:38 < theorbtwo> echo foo | md5sum will sum the trailing newline that echo pugs there" :) (pugs on te brain..)
19:45 PerlJam cognominal: it had some minor updates in Feb I think, but hasn't been changed since.
19:45 PerlJam But the last major change was in Dec.
19:46 obra svn log  http://svn.perl.org/perl6/d​oc/trunk/design/syn/S05.pod
19:46 obra there have been what appear to be typo fix class updates in feb, yeah.
19:46 obra actually
19:47 obra given those dates, I think that's the date it was loaded from cvs
19:48 PerlJam obra: still, there are no modifications since that date (that have been checked into svn)
19:48 obra PerlJam: right
19:49 obra cognominal: what changes did you think there were?
19:50 cognominal I thougt you were just talking changes, so I was alarmed to see the changed date on dev.perl.org. so my questions?
20:23 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.2/20050317]")
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21:00 nothingmuch oh crap: Set::Object::_(self, ...)
21:00 nothingmuch prepend: Usage:
21:01 nothingmuch from the likes of:  my $found ( @prospects ) {
21:01 nothingmuch         if ( -f $found && -x _ ) {
21:01 * nothingmuch pulls mugwump up by the ear
21:02 nothingmuch what time is it there? around morning, no?
21:06 cspencer has joined #perl6
21:10 Qiang 5pm here. weekend starts :)
21:11 cspencer has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:11 stevan uh oh,.. someone went to sleep and broke the build :)
21:13 theorbtwo Odd, most people do it the other way around.
21:14 stevan hmmm I wonder if src/Pugs/Types/Object|Pair.hs are on autrijus's machine
21:15 stevan and he forgot to svn add them
21:15 stevan I commented out the imports and so far it is compiling
21:15 theorbtwo It'd hardly be the first time somebody made that mistake.
21:15 stevan we shall see
21:15 stevan :)
21:15 stevan I do it all the time too :P
21:15 stevan sleep deprivation has that effect
21:16 theorbtwo I don't have that excuse, though.
21:16 stevan theorbtwo: do you want me to make that OS 9 image?
21:16 theorbtwo Yes.
21:16 theorbtwo Thanks.
21:16 stevan BTW _ I realized that I already threw out the jaguar images
21:17 theorbtwo Do you have rsync?
21:17 stevan no idea
21:17 stevan never used it
21:18 theorbtwo Do "which rsync" from a command line?
21:19 stevan got it
21:20 theorbtwo OK, now I have to figure out how to do this.
21:21 stevan ok
21:29 theorbtwo Pick a username.
21:29 theorbtwo stevan?
21:29 stevan yup
21:38 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
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21:59 * castaway hugs Limbic_Region
22:01 theorbtwo stevan, can you put the jaguar 1 CD in your drive, then do "sync --progress -vz --rsh='ssh -p2222' /dev/cdrom desert-island.dynodns.net:​/usr/src/mac/jaguar-1.iso" please?
22:01 theorbtwo Er, s/sync/rsync/
22:02 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:02 stevan has joined #perl6
22:03 * Limbic_Region hugs castaway and apologizes for not reciprocating sooner
22:03 castaway no worries
22:05 castaway hows tricks over the pond?
22:06 Limbic_Region pretty good
22:06 castaway nifyt
22:06 Limbic_Region just found out the original closing cost estimate was inflated
22:06 Limbic_Region $5200 versus $700
22:07 nothingmuch apropos prices, castorbway: did you guys find some proper flights?
22:07 castaway proper?
22:07 castaway no.. getting-from0a-to-b flights, yes (more or less)
22:07 QMario has joined #PERL6
22:08 QMario How do I make Perl print out random numbers in a certain range?
22:08 justatheory has quit IRC ()
22:08 castaway perl6 ?
22:08 theorbtwo (Low closing costs)++
22:08 nothingmuch proper like not too expensive
22:09 Khisanth castaway: perl5 but since he got banned from #perl I guess he is trying here :)
22:09 * castaway grins
22:09 QMario How do you know that, Khisanth?
22:10 castaway print rand(6) -> random number from 1 to 6, I think
22:10 castaway perldoc -f rand
22:10 QMario Thank You.
22:10 nothingmuch QMario: perl -ne 'BEGIN { $/ = \1 }; $_ = unpack("L", $_); print "$_\n" if $_ > $min and $_ < $max'
22:10 nothingmuch perl -ne /dev/random
22:10 mauke haha, nice
22:10 mauke castaway: you're wrong, btw :-)
22:10 xerox has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:10 castaway nothingmuch: in perl6 pls!
22:10 nothingmuch err, $/ = sizeOf, ofcourse
22:11 Khisanth QMario: because I was around when you decided to go preaching religion in the wrong place
22:11 nothingmuch say rand(6);
22:11 theorbtwo From 0 to 6, including 0 but not including 6.
22:11 castaway (please dont bring it here, hatever it was)
22:11 * castaway was close!
22:14 * Limbic_Region wonders why BrowserUk made this statement http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=450588 ?
22:14 castaway he needs a reason?
22:14 Khisanth Limbic_Region: ask him/her!
22:14 Limbic_Region Khisanth - I was wondering if there was something obvious that I was missing
22:15 Limbic_Region that they were comparing apples and oranges or something
22:15 Limbic_Region that autrijus cheated
22:15 Limbic_Region dunno
22:16 castaway presumably he was thinking that haskell was inline in perl there? and not underneath
22:16 * castaway shrugs
22:16 QMario How do i print random numbers as integers(whole numbers).
22:16 QMario ?
22:16 nothingmuch how childish
22:16 nothingmuch that's haskell
22:16 Limbic_Region QMario - this is NOT #perl or #perlhelp
22:16 * nothingmuch had much more respect for BrowserUK 5 minutes ago
22:17 * Limbic_Region asked the question in a /msg
22:17 theorbtwo QMario, it isn't perlmonks.org either.
22:17 castaway QMario: first you get a perl book ..
22:17 nothingmuch QMario: my code would do that
22:17 nothingmuch it reads data from /dev/random
22:17 QMario Can you send it to me?
22:17 nothingmuch and then unpacks it as a long
22:17 castaway or you do perldoc -f int
22:17 nothingmuch i pasted it here
22:17 magnetic has quit IRC ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!")
22:17 nothingmuch perl -ne 'BEGIN { $/ = \1 }; $_ = unpack("L", $_); print "$_\n" if $_ > $min and $_ < $max' /dev/random
22:17 mauke QMario: do you know what perl6 is?
22:18 nothingmuch just set $min and $max
22:18 QMario I don't think pastebot works for me?
22:18 nothingmuch it's not very efficient though
22:18 QMario No.
22:18 QMario That was for you ,mauke.
22:18 mauke nothingmuch: hmm, don't you need $/ = \4?
22:18 Khisanth Limbic_Region: well judging from that person's post, he doesn't seem very familiar with Haskell so ...
22:18 nothingmuch mauke: yes
22:18 nothingmuch sorry, i mentioned that, but didn't fix this paste around
22:19 nothingmuch anyway, it will take (4 * (2**32))/abs($max-$min)/2 bytest on average
22:19 Limbic_Region Khisanth - well, I am pretty oblivious myself to Haskell and only a margine more educated about Perl internals - so that's why I asked (I figured I was just being dumb)
22:19 nothingmuch depending on how fast your /dev/random is, it might take about a minute
22:19 castaway ;)
22:19 nothingmuch to read the GB or so of entropy
22:19 castaway QMario: type: perldoc -f int
22:19 QMario Okay.
22:20 nothingmuch however, if you read from /dev/urandom, it will be faster, but the numbers won't be as cool
22:20 castaway and perldoc perlfunc, for all the other functions you may need somewhen
22:20 QMario Thank You.
22:21 QMario What is perl6 for?
22:21 nothingmuch like perl 5 was for system administrators
22:21 stevan QMario: to replace perl5 :)
22:21 castaway its the next version after perl5, eventually
22:21 nothingmuch perl 6 is for farmers
22:21 nothingmuch it's got all sorts of features to simplify the language
22:21 nothingmuch like junctions, and chaining comparisons
22:21 * castaway laughs
22:22 QMario So you guys are just getting ready for it?
22:22 theorbtwo No, we're creating it.
22:22 Juerd Oh, we're ready
22:22 castaway creating it, kind of
22:22 Juerd I know I am
22:22 Juerd Perl 6 will magically solve all problems in my life.
22:22 Limbic_Region Juerd - that's not true
22:23 Limbic_Region it still won't get you laid
22:23 QMario Have you made any useful programs so far, Juerd?
22:23 Limbic_Region :P
22:23 Juerd Limbic_Region: Then what do you think the dwim operator does?
22:23 stevan QMario: we have an implemenation of hangman
22:23 Juerd QMario: No, never.
22:24 theorbtwo It's all about the yaddayaddayadda operator.
22:24 * castaway gggles
22:24 theorbtwo Every program can be written as #!/usr/bin/perl6 -e '...'
22:24 Juerd QMario: The only thing I made that's semi useful is a program that prints a line on a matrix printer every time a certain mailbox receives new mail, so the rattling of the pinwriter indicates new mail. It's somewhat more comforting than a dingdong sound or beep.
22:24 castaway ah, thats "every program" reduced o its sigle bug, right?
22:25 theorbtwo Exactly!
22:25 Limbic_Region every program reduced to a single line containing at least 1 bug
22:25 * Juerd reports numerous bugs for yadayadayada and dwim().
22:26 * nothingmuch replies to BrowserUK
22:26 Juerd A recent PM thread makes me wonder
22:27 Juerd How old are you, on average?
22:27 Juerd My average age is 10.
22:27 * castaway is an average of 8.
22:27 nothingmuch eh?
22:27 nothingmuch what is 'old' in this context?
22:27 castaway (oh, actual calculation?)
22:27 Juerd nothingmuch: What's your average age? :)
22:27 castaway mental age
22:27 nothingmuch behavioral like?
22:27 Juerd sum(@ages) / +@ages
22:28 Juerd And then the int of that
22:28 Limbic_Region Juerd - depends on if you say your average age at your first birthday is .5 or not (0 years old is valid or not)
22:28 theorbtwo Nah, she's an average of around 18, but it's on a binormal distribution.
22:28 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: in the first year of our lives i think we exist
22:28 Juerd Limbic_Region: 0 years is an age, so it counts.
22:28 nothingmuch is there some kind of reference table?
22:28 nothingmuch i don't know what to say
22:28 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - then it is real easy
22:29 * Limbic_Region likes his reply in that thread better anyway
22:29 nothingmuch sometimes i feel like i'm 12
22:29 nothingmuch when i'm being annoying because i'm bored
22:29 nothingmuch and i only realized i'm annoying because i'm bored after a while
22:29 nothingmuch at times i feel like i'm 6, if i'm really enjoying myself on something stupid
22:29 Juerd use List::Util qw(sum); int(sum(0..$current_age)/$current_age+1)
22:29 Juerd Perl 5 feels so primitive
22:30 nothingmuch at work i feel 30, because everyone else is
22:30 nothingmuch with friends i feel +=5 because they're pretty goofy
22:30 nothingmuch ah
22:30 castaway Juerd: you mean p6 would DWIM on the $current_age bit?
22:30 Juerd Average age has nothing to do with feeling
22:30 Juerd castaway: Haha
22:31 nothingmuch 11
22:31 Juerd castaway: No, get rid of List::Util and have all that built in
22:31 nothingmuch i thought that's what you guys meant
22:31 castaway ;)
22:31 * castaway thinks the result is as meaningless as ones actual age
22:32 Limbic_Region Juerd - no need
22:32 Juerd castaway: Duh, it's based on that and only that :)
22:32 Limbic_Region sum of all numbers is (n^2 + n) / 2
22:32 castaway exactly.
22:33 Juerd Limbic_Region: I'm writing it like this so that someone who skipped a certain age can more easily modify the code to match his circumstances.
22:33 Juerd I always code with maintenance in mind.
22:33 Limbic_Region or someone who is 29 multiple years in a row?
22:33 Limbic_Region ;-)
22:33 theorbtwo So when you write difficult-to-maintain code it's on purpose?
22:33 Juerd Or other weird ages lists.
22:34 Juerd theorbtwo: Yes.
22:34 * nothingmuch goes to make tea, and then hack some spork
22:34 Juerd I don't use complex mathematical solutions, like Limbic_Region does, just because they happen to match the current data ;)
22:34 * castaway wonders how to skip an ag ;)
22:34 castaway Jued++
22:34 castaway oops +r
22:35 theorbtwo .oO(Hey Jued...)
22:36 Juerd castaway: I hope I find out before I'm almost 30, because that's one age I'd like to skip entirely.
22:36 Limbic_Region 25 was the big one for me
22:36 Juerd castaway: When I do find out, I'll let you know.
22:36 castaway It wasnt all that bad, iirc ;)
22:36 Limbic_Region quarter of a century
22:36 castaway BTDT
22:36 Limbic_Region 1/3 of your life
22:36 Juerd btdt?
22:36 Juerd Limbic_Region: optimist ;)
22:36 * Limbic_Region doesn't think 30 will bother him at all
22:36 castaway only going to survive to 75, Limbic?
22:36 theorbtwo I'm going to be a quarter-century soon.
22:36 castaway Been There, Done That
22:37 * castaway is 31
22:37 Limbic_Region castaway - more or less
22:37 * theorbtwo is planning on living to 120.
22:37 castaway but feel free to relate your impressions once you get there
22:38 Limbic_Region well - I plan on trading this body in so 75 is a high end estimate
22:39 theorbtwo As in reincarnation or as in brain transplant?
22:39 * Limbic_Region forgets that theorbtwo is jewish
22:39 Limbic_Region neither of those two
22:39 castaway limbic, you forumla gets me 496 !?
22:40 castaway what are the alternatives?
22:40 Limbic_Region castaway - that's the sum - you still need to divide by the number of elements (current age) to get the average
22:40 castaway oh, you didnae say that!
22:40 castaway 16!
22:40 Limbic_Region castaway - I didn't say the n^2 + n / 2 formula was how to get average age, I said it was how to get the sum
22:41 * castaway cant read obviously ;)
22:45 Juerd re
22:45 theorbtwo L~R, still don't know what you mean by trade it in.
22:46 Juerd 00:41 < Limbic_Region> castaway - that's the sum - you still need to divide by the number of elements (current age) to get the
22:46 Juerd                       average
22:46 Juerd No, not current age...
22:46 Juerd Current age plus one
22:46 Juerd By code was wrong because it had precedence wrong. Sorry.
22:46 Limbic_Region Juerd - again, that depends on if you consider 0 a valid age
22:46 Juerd (Wow - such a simple thing and we're both getting it wrong)
22:47 Juerd Limbic_Region: Unless you skipped it, it should be counted.
22:47 Limbic_Region in my code I caveat the 0 so I'm not wrong :P
22:47 Juerd In that case you were 1 when you were born, I think.
22:47 Juerd Limbic_Region: You were wrong by saying one still needs to devide by the current age.
22:47 Limbic_Region no, it means your age doesn't begin until you reach 1
22:47 Juerd No, I think 0 is a valid age.
22:47 Limbic_Region and that's your right
22:48 Juerd I know the first year of living has age 0 in some databases. Not NULL, but 0.
22:48 Limbic_Region but for the purposes of my code it isn't - and I said so - so I am not wrong
22:48 Limbic_Region you may disagree with me all day long
22:48 Juerd That's another 23:10
22:48 Juerd No thanks.
22:49 Limbic_Region heh
22:49 Limbic_Region all I mean is that given my stated assumptions the code is correct - the assumptions themselves may be invalid/incorrect, but they are in agreement with each other
22:49 castaway *g*
22:50 Juerd The code is correct, but your explanation involving the code was not.
22:50 QMario has left
22:50 * theorbtwo shrugs.
22:50 theorbtwo I think that 0 is a valid age.
22:50 nothingmuch the code may be correct, but argument is redundant
22:50 Juerd And I repeat that your code is only correct for objects that have never skipped an age or had a certain age twice.
22:50 Juerd Although if you have the same age twice in a row, I don't know if it then counts as one.
22:51 theorbtwo If you ask someone "how old is your (son|daughter)", then you will often get ages 0 > $n >= 1.
22:51 nothingmuch . o O ( the same age twice in arrow? )
22:51 Juerd It certainly counts as one if I have a certain age today and the same tomorrow, but I don't know how this goes if the age of an age is more than one.
22:52 theorbtwo Counting each discrete year only once is a good estimate.
22:52 Juerd So if your age is 10 for two years in a row, it counts twice?
22:53 Juerd You know - normally, this is the area of biologists
22:53 Juerd But we programmers are expected to know everything
22:53 Juerd For otherwise we couldn't create programs except programming languages.
22:53 theorbtwo And note that I am not the same age as I was yesterday -- I am one day older.
22:54 Juerd Age, in this discussion, is strictly measured in years, rounded down.
22:54 theorbtwo So my average age during the year from my 10th birthday to my 11th birthday is 10.5.
22:54 Juerd I should have mentioned that.
22:54 castaway depends how granular you want to go ;)
22:54 castaway ah ok
22:54 Juerd theorbtwo: Yes, but the average age in turn is int()ed, as you see in my example code.
22:55 Juerd Hm, from age 9 to age 11, my average age was 10. It's 10 now too. I didn't age in 10 years!
22:56 theorbtwo You're only 20?
22:56 Juerd Even though I was neither 21 nor 20 at age 10.
22:56 sorje weeeh, revision 2222 :-)
22:56 Juerd Weird.
22:56 Juerd theorbtwo: 21.
22:56 Juerd sorje: Congrats :)
22:56 broquaint has joined #perl6
22:57 Juerd Hi, broquaint
22:57 Juerd broquaint: What is your average age?
22:57 broquaint Hey, Juerd.
22:58 broquaint I don't have an average age as such.
22:58 Juerd broquaint: perl -MList::Util=sum -le'my $current_age = shift; print int(sum(0..$current_age)/($current_age+1))'
22:58 Juerd Oh. An interesting new possibility.
22:58 Juerd broquaint: Are you skipping every single age, then?
22:58 nothingmuch Juerd: how old are you, unaveraged?
22:59 Juerd nothingmuch: Still 21, as I said and was 3 minutes ago.
22:59 Limbic_Region Juerd - you count years how you want, I count them like the calendar  4, 3, 2, 1, -1  (there is no 0)
22:59 broquaint I try, Juerd, I try.
22:59 nothingmuch oops, sorry
22:59 * nothingmuch is not really into chat
22:59 broquaint Apparently that code isn't favoured by the windows command line.
22:59 nothingmuch with all this fascinating discussion going on
22:59 Juerd broquaint: Sorry - In geek channels I always assume sane shells.
22:59 castaway bro!
23:00 theorbtwo Hm, Limbic, interesting... you are -1 from birth until your first birthday?
23:00 * theorbtwo thinks you are 0.
23:00 theorbtwo If you ask a proud new parent how old their child is, they will often answer something like "8 months".
23:00 theorbtwo Back-extrapolate.
23:00 broquaint Hey, c :)
23:00 * Limbic_Region wanders off
23:00 Juerd Limbic_Region: Hm - I never really gave this much thought, but this does mean the proverbial "year 0" never existed, doesn't it?
23:01 theorbtwo Between AD and BC?  Nope.
23:01 * Juerd read AC and DC. Hm.
23:01 theorbtwo If an event lasted from Jan 1, 1 BC to Dec 31, 2 AD, it lasted 3 years.
23:02 theorbtwo (Approx.)
23:02 Juerd theorbtwo: Why the inconsistency in that, by the way?
23:02 broquaint Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, according to the bad guy in Under Seige.
23:02 Juerd Before christ, but anno domino...
23:02 Juerd (assuming that is what AD stands for)
23:03 theorbtwo Histerical Rasons.
23:03 broquaint It would seem my average age is 11.
23:03 theorbtwo In east-asia, it's common to consider someone 1 at birth.
23:03 Juerd broquaint: You're only one year older than I am, on average :)
23:03 Juerd theorbtwo: Then east-asians have a somewhat higher average age (or lower, based on equality of current ages)
23:03 theorbtwo Somebody in my HS got their driver's license after having been out of the womb only 15 years because of that.
23:04 Juerd theorbtwo: That at first read is funny for someone who lives in a country where driving age is 18 :)
23:05 * theorbtwo grins.
23:05 theorbtwo I'm American, and more specifically Pensylvanian.
23:05 theorbtwo Also, I can't spell.
23:06 nothingmuch where in Penn?
23:06 theorbtwo Lancaster -- Manheim Township.
23:07 * nothingmuch doesn't know it
23:07 nothingmuch couldn't bother with geography when there was Sim City 2000 and the great outdoors
23:07 nothingmuch oh well, i was young and wreckless
23:07 nothingmuch reckless?
23:07 * nothingmuch used to live in Pittsburgh
23:08 castaway ooh
23:08 theorbtwo Oh, I lived in Pittsburgh for a while as well.
23:08 castaway so did he
23:08 theorbtwo When were you there?
23:09 * nothingmuch has very fond memories
23:09 nothingmuch 93-94
23:09 theorbtwo Oh, well before me.
23:09 nothingmuch no, sorry
23:09 nothingmuch 94-96
23:09 * theorbtwo has some fond memories and some not so much.
23:09 nothingmuch 93-94 was in Princeton
23:10 broquaint Doing what?
23:10 theorbtwo Going to Pitt.
23:10 nothingmuch mum and dad were on subsequent sabbaticals
23:10 nothingmuch i think those were approx. their post doc years
23:10 theorbtwo Well, mostly being enrolled in Pitt and not going.
23:11 broquaint Cool.
23:11 * nothingmuch has never been on the Pitt campus, even though mom tought there
23:11 nothingmuch CMU was very nice though
23:11 nothingmuch the robot tracks were cute
23:11 nothingmuch i always wanted to see one in action but never got the chance
23:20 Juerd Wow, I received spam on a domain that hasn't existed for at least 2 years.
23:20 Juerd Some dns cache they use.
23:21 Juerd (And perhaps I should remove that domain from my server... :))
23:22 broquaint What was the average age thing about?
23:23 Juerd Inspired by perlmonks
23:23 Juerd It was a very interesting conversation about the possibilities surrounding ages.
23:23 Juerd We take too much for granted.
23:24 broquaint Of course we do, we're civilised. FSVO civilised ...
23:25 Juerd  civilised
23:25 Juerd       adj 1: having a high state of culture and development both social
23:25 Juerd              and technological; "terrorist acts that shocked the
23:25 Juerd              civilized world" [syn: {civilized}] [ant: {noncivilized}]
23:25 Juerd If social development is a requirement, I'm not civilised.
23:25 broquaint Although it doesn't state what civilised need be applied to ..
23:26 Juerd       2: marked by refinement in taste and manners; "cultivated
23:26 Juerd          speech"; "cultured Bostonians"; "cultured tastes"; "a
23:26 Juerd          genteel old lady"; "polite society" [syn: {civilized}, {cultivated},
23:26 Juerd           {cultured}, {genteel}, {polite}]
23:26 Juerd Even more vague.
23:26 nothingmuch ingy: ping
23:27 broquaint Ah the dictionary, is there anything it won't tiptoe around?
23:28 ingy nothingmuch: pong
23:29 nothingmuch i want to subclass Sprok::Slides
23:29 nothingmuch ingy: want to SEE some spork hackings?
23:29 nothingmuch i need a bit of hand holding
23:29 nothingmuch and make Spork::S5 produce with class="inc"
23:30 ingy SEE is fine
23:30 ingy location?
23:30 nothingmuch see://woobling.org
23:30 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - BrowserUk replied
23:32 Juerd Good night
23:32 Juerd zz
23:32 castaway morning juerd
23:32 nothingmuch good reply
23:33 nothingmuch ingy: one sec, it's pointing to the ether ip
23:33 ingy nothingmuch: seem to be having troubles connectinf
23:33 nothingmuch i'm on the wifi
23:33 nothingmuch try again
23:34 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
23:35 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
23:39 revdiablo Limbic_Region: heh, it seems like B-Uk's reply just changed the subject, rather than addressing the meat of the post
23:39 nothingmuch revdiablo: but he doesn't bite
23:39 nothingmuch he explains he prefers it
23:39 nothingmuch instead of arguing pointlessly
23:40 revdiablo nothingmuch: *nod* but he could have at least acknowledged that his earlier assertions were wrong
23:40 theorbtwo What is the correct device name, BTW?
23:40 nothingmuch true that
23:40 nothingmuch theorbtwo: eh?
23:40 Limbic_Region well - his mistake was associating Haskell with a pure FP language
23:40 theorbtwo For the whole CD-ROM drive.
23:40 Limbic_Region but I for one make mistakes like that all the time
23:41 theorbtwo It is, but it redefined "pure".
23:41 theorbtwo Well, at least it's mostly pure.
23:42 Limbic_Region *shrug* - he should have just replied with s/Haskell/side-effect free language/g and been done with it
23:43 revdiablo Limbic_Region: everyone makes mistakes, but some people don't ever seem to admit it. they just change the subject. :)
23:45 theorbtwo I like his last post.
23:46 theorbtwo 450609, that is.
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23:59 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("POETS")

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